Cardinal Direction
What's really happening in the Mountain State? Cardinal Direction brings you in-depth conversations on the policies affecting West Virginia, from the economy and education to healthcare and infrastructure. Produced by the Cardinal Institute for WV Policy.
Cardinal Direction
State-Level Transformation in Louisiana with Susie Schowen
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What does it take to turn a fragmented safety net into a pathway to work? Louisiana Works Secretary Susie Schowen joins Jessi Troyan to discuss Louisiana’s “one door” approach to connecting public benefits and workforce services. From gas cards that help students stay in training to changes across state agencies, they explore the practical work of reform, the importance of frontline staff, and lessons West Virginia can apply to its own efforts.
I'm Jesse Torian, Director of Policy and Research with the Cardinal Institute for West Virginia Policy, and I'll be your host for this season of the Cardinal Direction Podcast. In this season, we'll discuss the American Social Safety Net. We start with the origins of these programs, how they've evolved, and what reform efforts have been made. From there, we discuss how one state operates differently and the pathways that the other 49 states can take to move toward this model. Finally, we look ahead to what work remains at both the state and federal levels to ensure that these programs serve as a true bridge during temporary hardships and preserve resources for our fellow citizens who truly rely on such programs to survive. On today's episode of the Cardinal Direction Podcast, I am so pleased to be joined by Susie Shawan, who serves as the secretary of Louisiana Works. She's been deeply involved with so many exciting and promising changes going on in Louisiana. And I, for one, am so excited to dig into those stories today. Welcome.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, let's kind of start off for our listeners here with some of the backgrounds of your story so they can get to know you better. I know you've got a diverse career history. Could you share with our listeners part of that journey and especially what led you into your career in workforce development?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I will do everybody the favor of not telling you the whole story because I took a very circuitous route to uh where I am now. But ultimately, it's all sort of a story of an increasing level of skepticism with the lore of upward social mobility in America, of the role that higher education, particularly university educations, plays. And then, of course, with the social system. So I'm going to start sort of fairly far back, which is my dad's birth in Nitro, West Virginia, right at the end of the Depression. And he viewed his pathway to the middle class as one pathway and one pathway only. And that was the highest quality university education that he could get. And it's a remarkable story. I would love to tell the whole story right now. Uh, it really is a true, you know, American uh bootstrap story. But he did manage eventually, also circuitously, to get to MIT, where he got a PhD, met my mother, and uh they raised me in a family that not surprisingly was very focused on the promise of university education and very, you know, no question about it, educationally privileged. So I myself went a university and grad school route. I was studying chemistry at Columbia in New York, and realized towards the end of the program that there were no jobs. Sounds bizarre, but that university experience, that you know, traditional pathway did not work out at all for me. Um, there were no real academic opportunities because there were so many people coming out of similar programs, and my field of study didn't lend itself to private industry. So I was genuinely embittered, and I don't hold Columbia responsible for this. I want to be clear about that. But it was an extremely difficult time of my life, and I had been teaching uh SAT classes for Kaplan to uh support myself while I was in grad school, and they offered me a full-time job. But that's another part of the story because I, you know, came from a traditional type of background that said the SAT is an intelligence test. There's no way to prepare for it. It is the fairest possible way to evaluate people across socioeconomic classes for their potential for higher ed. And I realized immediately that that was not true, that test preparation actually works. It works really well and is one of those ways in which we make sure that you know more affluent families have access to better opportunities in our society. I moved to New Orleans. I ended up uh working in a national scope job uh working with struggling school districts. I started to experience the same level of skepticism about K-12 education. I ended up running a technical college when I moved to Baton Rouge, and there I really got a look at the workforce and social services systems and realized that we have sold our people a bill of goods. And I'm not the first person to say this, but I will say it if we purpose built a system of workforce social services and education to keep our people trapped in poverty, it would look a whole lot like this one.
SPEAKER_01You've got an interesting kind of perspective that you're bringing to this kind of from the front end. Because I think a lot of other folks that I've talked to kind of throughout this podcast series, they're coming in, they're like, Oh, I've seen these, you know, I've I've seen these challenges, I've seen how the system is is not doing what it lives up to. And there's been this tinge of disappointment, but I feel like on your end, like those feelings are a little sharper here. Like you're mad about it.
SPEAKER_00This is personal, and I am mad about it. Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_01And and although this will be an audio podcast for our listeners, like I just want everyone to know right now she's mad with a beautiful smile on her face about it. Susie is a joyful warrior 100% for the cause of really connecting people with these opportunities and really living up to the promise of the American dream that we've all heard all of our lives.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate your putting it that way. I I do view this as something of a holy war. So, yes, that's that's absolutely right.
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of us who find ourselves in this line of work feel similarly in terms of calling it like a holy war or something to that extent. Was there a particular point kind of in this journey? I know you went really high level with your story along the way that hey, I went into you know, a STEM field, which for a lot of us was we were told, hey, you go into STEM, like you're gonna get a good paying job. Like this is yeah, this is the first step on the ladder to the American dream or you know, that good middle class life here, that those sorts of letdowns, the differences that you've seen kind of working, so to speak, inside the machine. Was there like a certain focal point that you were just like, man, this is not it? Is there one that really stands out along that way?
SPEAKER_00That's a good question. And you know, personally, it was certainly that moment towards the uh end of my grad school career where I realized the bill of goods that I'd been sold. But the real, I think, uh passion point for me, the point at which I really decided this was a war that needed to be fought, was when I was working with our students at the technical college that uh I ran in Baton Rouge. And the single greatest factor in their academic success with us was whether or not we provided them with gas carts. I really realized just how close to the edge these people were living, that simply being able to fill up their car with gas was the point at which they were able to continue an education and get into a middle class job or not. And these were daily minute-by-minute struggles that these folks were confronting, and any missed step, any missed opportunity at any point was gonna take them right out of the game.
SPEAKER_01In some ways, that's so surprising, but also from a lot of these conversations that it comes down to something as simple as that with gas cards that that a lot of us who kind of work in these higher levels, we work in policy, we're like, oh, well, like the system is broken. Yes, that's true, but also the importance of what this looks like on the day-to-day is so much like it is a load-bearing wall here for does this build continue to you know, complete construction, if you will.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Exactly. It it is we we talk at the policy level that as access to reliable transportation is you know a barrier to uh getting to training and getting to work, but it means something very specific for people, and I really saw what it looked like in practical form.
SPEAKER_01That that makes so much sense when it's just explained out that plainly. Because, like you said, we talk about reliable transportation, and sometimes it's just like here's the extra 20 for the tank. And and hopefully it's not we're not living in times right like right now where that 20 in the tank isn't going as far as it used to. It most definitely is not. So, along the way here, we're gonna fast forward to your more recent experiences, in particular, you know, your time here at Louisiana Works. And so I'm gonna zoom out just a little bit that every state is out here administering a portfolio of workforce programs, public assistance programs, all of these things to try and help facilitate social nobility, help facilitate people kind of climbing the economic ladder and really making their way to a state of economic independence. And yet the system we have doesn't really live up to that promise. But in Louisiana, what was going on that really convinced leaders in the state that the existing system wasn't working the way it was, and that there was a serious drive, a serious need for change?
SPEAKER_00So we are very fortunate in a couple of ways in Louisiana. The first one that I will highlight is our legislative auditor function. We have a very powerful, very energetic legislative auditor, and that office over a period of years uh prior to my coming into this role in 2024 had taken a very close look at the functioning uh and the coordination of our workforce and social services system. They did so at the behest of another entity that we're really lucky to have, and that of course is the Pelican Institute, our free market think tank run by Daniel Erstmahmer, and they had really driven a lot of the legislation that directed the legislative auditor to take a look at these programs, knowing full well what the answer would be. But it really allowed us to put some detail, put some numbers to the problem, and really establish pretty clearly for our legislative leadership and our policy leadership that something was badly wrong. We then, uh, with Governor Jeff Landry coming in in January of 24, um uh my taking this role at Louisiana Works, what was then the Louisiana Workforce Commission, was at least partly predicated on an opportunity to try to move us in a reform direction. So I wanted that opportunity. And Jeff Landry, for those that don't know him, is a hard-driving reformer. He loves change, he looks for opportunity to push change, and he is a heavy hammer, and he was willing to be decisive, be forceful, and you know, basically put on the table that change has to happen. It's not if, it's not when, it's now, and people need to get on board and make it happen. Um, and so I think those things kind of coming together really helped to uh, first of all, make the case that we needed change, but secondly, make the case that change was happening and people need to participate in it or get out of the way, but that they were not going to be able to defend the status quo, the status quo was off the table.
SPEAKER_01That's so important. And there's three pieces of that that you really highlighted or that really stood out to me. It's you have the data in the research, you understand the scope of the problem. This isn't just, hey, we know a guy who's got this story, because frankly, I think anybody listening to this podcast, and I know when I talk about the work I've done on this issue, like we all know a guy or we know a guy who knows a guy that tells a similar story. But really moving it off of this anecdotal qualitative piece to like here it is in black and white and hard numbers, the scope of how badly this is in need of a new direction. And then having that passionate leadership, having a leader like Governor Landry, who's willing to come in because let's be honest, undertaking a reform like this does not make you a lot of friends in the political sphere. And it it takes a real spine of steel, is what I'm gonna refer to it in this conversation. It takes some some hearty constitution, a steel spine, and just and such a deep and profound belief in the vision, and then having kind of that buy-in at the administrative level, too, within that leadership, to say for the people who are, you know, leading the on-the-ground pieces of this to say we're bought in too. Because I think sometimes there's this great disconnect of the governor has a great idea and the legislature buys into it. So you've got these, you know, two of your three major branches of government saying, like, we're gonna move forward, we're gonna do something different. But the people actually running the show on the day today, if they're not bought in, you can pass the greatest legislation in the world. And if implementation is not there, the spirit to implement is not there, things are gonna fall apart. And it's a matter, unfortunately, in that question, it's not a matter of if it's when. Sometimes it's death by a thousand paper cuts, and sometimes it's just running into a brick wall.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And systems perpetuate systems, and the people within the system often defend the status quo without even realizing what they're doing, or out of something I think that often becomes a personal allegiance to the system rather than to the people they're serving. Again, without any sort of ill intentions, that people stop change from happening, and you do need people at all levels who are willing to push for the change. I want to say to that point, very quickly, just how important the people directly on the ground who are working to deliver services are to this. What we are finding is that they are at least as passionate about moving in this direction as anybody at the leadership level, because as one of them put it to me, he's the one that has to watch that face ball when he has to say no to somebody. So they're the ones for whom this is truly real on a daily basis, and they are surprisingly change-oriented and surprisingly reform-oriented. That's been one of the great stories that I think is coming out of this.
SPEAKER_01That's so encouraging to hear in its own way, because I think there's probably a level of it that everyone, if you're and I go all over the place with my metaphors here. So my apologies to you and to the audience. But if you're in this hive, this beehive, if you will, of you know, everyone's kind of working in the social service administration or administering workforce services, if you're just one of the worker bees and you see that speaking out kind of in the same way that I just said about Governor Landry, like making these big changes isn't necessarily going to earn you friends. But also a lot of the times, if you're just the frontline worker, you're like, well, well, what does my voice matter as one piece in the grand machinery that this whole enterprise is? And that makes it hard. So the fact that you're saying here that the people on the ground are in working directly with the folks coming in to look for the hand up, to get the help, to get the resources they need, to get back on steady ground, are excited about these changes because it's it's creating, or I guess it's minimizing the opportunities that they have to say no and they have to see that fallen face and have to carry that sort of emotional burden. That even though yes, like it's a job, but that stuff stays with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do think that's such an important part of the story because somebody who works in social services, delivering services to people, is not doing that to get rich or be lazy. That is not how those jobs work. And so these really are mission-driven people. And promising them more resources, more flexibility, more you know, relevance to the real lives of the people that they're serving, that's what they're looking for. They are really um honestly, I think, some of our best allies in change management. There is a level of nervousness, though, that I don't want to discount, right? Because these people are mission-driven and these are jobs they care about. They don't want to lose those jobs. And any change, you know, within a bureaucracy is always going to make people think about job loss. And, you know, we also have a lot of people just rolling up a few levels from them and rolling down a few levels from leadership that are genuinely very worried about what this will look like for their everyday, you know, career and their everyday work life. And we understand that, but you know, it's it's kind of with education reform, we talk a lot about worrying about the kids in the school and not the adults in the school. I don't want to be too plainspoken about that because we do need to certainly look to reward our people for the hard work that they've done. But again, I think just that message that this is happening, be part of the positive change, and there will be space for you is a big part of the story we're telling.
SPEAKER_01That's a great way to frame it, really just framing it as an opportunity, and we want you to be part of this opportunity as well. Yes, uh, very much so. So, going into a little bit more of the mechanics and kind of moving up from the frontline level here, Louisiana is undertaking and has been doing one of the most ambitious reorganizations. You spoke about that. That was what appealed to you in this opportunity for, you know, to help the audience here understand. Walk us through kind of what the status quo looked like and what the new model that you've been a part of bringing to life has been.
SPEAKER_00So there are two parts to this story. There's the change that I knew I would be working on when I took this job. And then there's the change that has newly become available, thanks to flexibility at the federal level. That candidly I never thought in my professional lifetime that I would ever have the. Opportunity to work on. So there are two pieces, and I'm going to kind of talk about them as two pieces, even though they fit together. So the first is what uh many people call the one-door model, which is about integrated case management and integrated eligibility and uh the integrated case management and eligibility for workforce and social services uh programs, just to be clear. So, what we have actually done there is really just rearranged the programs at the state leadership level, and then we are working now on implementing the case management model. So we moved several programs out of our department of children and family services. The SNAP program, uh, which I'm sure your listeners are familiar with, uh, had been housed at Children and Family Services or DCFS, whereas Medicaid uh was housed at our Department of Health. We have now moved SNAP to the Department of Health so that they can integrate the eligibility systems, which honestly they were two different instances of the exact same computer program. So it just absolutely makes sense to put them together. And so our Department of Health, in a lot of ways, is becoming the behind-the-scenes eligibility hub for many, many very large programs and a lot of the smaller ones as well. They also took disability determination services as uh an example of that. We moved a number of workforce programs out of DCFS and over to us, and that's the point where we changed our name to Louisiana Works. So SNAP Employment and Training, uh, a TANF-funded program, uh, some other programs of that type, and Louisiana Rehabilitation Services was already with us to connect to the disability determination uh uh piece that sits at the Department of Health. And then TANF next year is moving to us. And I think with the changes at the federal level, that is good timing because it really is clearly uh being reconceptualized in some ways as barrier reduction for the pathway to work. So we're extremely pleased uh to see that happening. So that's the state level mechanics on the ground. We are working to um train our people in our local workforce areas to manage multiple programs at once. Historically, and I'm sure this is the case in many states, everybody's like, you know, they're defined by the money source that pays them and that they provide services out of rather than being defined by their role as an employment counselor who is providing barrier reduction services to the human being. So we are working towards implementing that model on our side while the Department of Health is also working on shifting a lot of roles on their side. And we're gonna meet up, it's like building a bridge from both sides, we are gonna meet up at some point early next year where they will truly on the ground handle eligibility behind the scenes, and we will on the ground own the front-facing customer service side of uh the process. And I do want to mention this because I think it's a really important part of the story, that we now have a joint appointment. We have a um leadership role that is shared between the Department of Health and Louisiana Works that is really focused on the benefits to work pipeline. So uh that executive director of economic stability is helping to make sure that this all happens. And that's such an asset for us. I really encourage other states to look at that kind of model because it really ties us together. So that's the story of One Door. Um, I think we would struggle to meet the full promise of that change, were it not from new guidance from the U.S. Department of Labor encouraging states to apply for waivers to allow them to consolidate and centralize the federally funded workforce uh system, which in Louisiana is controlled by 15 local elected officials, and we will be, yes, consolidating that. So we have uh through an executive order issued by Governor Landry, which again took the status quo straight off the table for that 15 uh you know different workforce uh areas, took that right off the table. And then we passed legislation in the most recent session that showed that this is in a bipartisan way, almost unanimously, the will of the legislature. And I still think those two votes against us just didn't read the full bill. But the um uh the move in that direction, uh, like I said, has been established uh by our leadership. We have submitted the waiver request. We're expecting some answers from the Department of Labor pretty soon, but I will say we are confident that there will be significant reform available to us. We know that the Trump administration and the current Department of Labor are really interested in moving the workforce system forward, and this is the most important way that they can help us do that. So that I'm not gonna get into the mechanics of that because I would be talking for the next three hours, but it's gonna be a super heavy lift because it's a whole lot of change, but it is, you know, it's the work of a lifetime. And like I said, I never thought I would ever be able to do it.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. I really love at all of these different levels that are involved with the programs. Hey, we're gonna do better on the ground for the person who's coming in to get these services. You've got it at this leadership level, the agency leadership level with you. You've got it with Landry and all the way up to the federal government saying, hey, we understand we've got to do stuff different. And given the parameters, given the constraints that we live in right now, here's what we can do to maximize the flexibility, maximize your ability to make things work in the best way possible, until and unless, you know, we get sort of like a sweeping congressional reform package that really blows the doors off of this opportunity in a whole new way.
SPEAKER_00Certainly what we're hoping is in the future.
SPEAKER_01So throughout this reorganization, there's a lot of it, you said, you know, it looks straightforward on paper, or for those of us who are not kind of in here and you know, people from my perspective who are like, yeah, we could do this differently. It looks a lot different on the ground. And once, you know, real people and budgets and technology and organizational culture become part of the equation, and it's not just a blackboard exercise. What throughout this journey has surprised you the most? And feel free to take this in a positive surprise, or like, wow, we really underestimated how big of a lift this was going to be.
SPEAKER_00So uh I probably have things to say in both of those categories. Um, I will say, and I think I've sort of alluded to this already, that one of the great positives, first it is just the level of buy-in among a number of different categories of people. So at the leadership level, the my fellow cabinet members here in Louisiana have just been extraordinary to work with. I mentioned the joint appointment with the Department of Health. I mean, that level of coordination and cooperation between state agencies is very rare. And it helps to cement that cooperation in a way that we certainly hope will make things more sustainable over time. To a person, all of the other uh cabinet members have been incredibly supportive. We have had so much support from the economic development community and the business community. That has really made an extraordinary difference for us. They have helped us with thought leadership, they've come to the table in the legislature with us, they have talked to the constituencies affected. They have made it clear that from an economic competitiveness and a business environment standpoint, this change has to happen. And that has been incredibly powerful for us. I mentioned the support from the people directly on the ground. And that I think is also very important, and I think will kind of lead me towards something that is perhaps more of a struggle than I had anticipated, and that is getting people to actually see the vision. So I feel like those people who are directly working with constituents, they see the vision because they can, you know, in a very concrete, very practical way, say, oh, this is what I'll be able to do that I'm not able to do right now, and it's something I've wanted to do for a long time, right? Like they can kind of see what that looks like in their mind's eye. For the people in between, it has, I think, proved difficult to understand where we're trying to go in a way that feels attainable. And I feel like that is something that I wish we had been able to map out more clearly for people, but the truth is we couldn't have, and we kind of still can't, because we don't know what the waiver package is going to look like that comes back from the Department of Labor. We don't know exactly what we're going to be able to do. So we can't plan now. Uh, a number of people have said to us that, you know, we're coming to them with this big change, but no plan on how to get there. And I'm like, well, we can't nail down all those steps right now. It would be a mistake to do so. And I have told people a number of times the alternative is to do all this behind the scenes in secret, including applying for all of these waivers, and then come to you after the fact with this fully formed package. And they're all like, oh yeah, no, don't do that. So we know that that is the worst option. But I think you know, that's that's the challenge of change management, is it's hard for people to feel comfortable with it if they don't know exactly where their foot is going when they take that next step. It's hard to believe there's solid ground underneath it if they can't really see where it's going. And I understand that, but the fact is we've got to do it anyway. And right, you know, that's that's the message we've been putting out there is we know it's hard. We know it is hard to have full faith, but we're going. And you know, we're going.
SPEAKER_01At least it sounds like you can between knowing what the waiver package is that you applied for, having, because I don't think anybody that's working on these issues in these agencies in Louisiana, like you're not rookies, you've got some sort of a feel for where this is going. So you're able to at least kind of give your, you know, your mid-level folks who are experiencing the most uncertainty. You're able to give them kind of a compass, if not map quest directions.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's exactly that. We're able to tell them where we're going. It's the how do we get there that we're not all the way uh able to articulate, because again, it's it's a work in progress, and they're going to be part of determining that. But I do think, you know, that that difficulty in grasping that it's possible when it's hard to see the way there, that has been um harder than I anticipated.
SPEAKER_01Right. I I also think it's probably one of those you don't you kind of don't know that that's going to be a thing until you're in the middle of it and you're like, oh, oh yeah, that's that's a concern. Yes. Yes, just a radical ignorance that you just don't know what you don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes, yes. And and I think it is because the scale and scope of the change that we are pushing forward is genuinely unprecedented. So, you know, people who work in large government systems don't expect that to happen in their working life. And so it is uh, I think, very much unexpected for them. And so I think we do need to be sensitive and compassionate to the fact that this is uh both unprecedented and unexpected, and work with folks to help them understand that, you know, there is actually a way to get there, and we have to find it because that's where we're going.
SPEAKER_01That's a great way to put it. I know it's all it's early in the implementation of this reorganization that you've got, and like we've just been talking about, there are even more changes, even bigger changes possibly along the way. So, what are the early indicators that you guys are looking at in Louisiana, whether it's within Louisiana Works, across agencies, you know, what's Governor Landry looking for too that are helping you guys determine and stay on track for like, are these changes succeeding? Are we actually doing what we set out to do? What are the key things you guys are keeping track of?
SPEAKER_00Well, the the original metric that we set ourselves as an agency when I first came in two and a half years ago was improving the labor force participation rate. Louisiana has historically been very, very low, uh, you know, ranking in the bottom few states uh in the national rankings for labor force participation. And when I said that, a whole lot of people kept coming up to me saying, you know, you can't make that your metric. The denominator is way too big. It is way too hard to move that number. People have done it before and they've gotten, you know, shot down. It's a mistake. And I'm like, well, it's the only metric that really means anything in this space. So we are using it. Now I am extremely pleased to tell you that yesterday we got the news that we are currently number one in the nation in labor force participation rate growth. And we went up absolutely, we are so excited by this. Uh, we went up a full percentage point when the rest of the country went down 0.6.
SPEAKER_01So wow, that's that's a big spread. That's a big spread.
SPEAKER_00Is it's extremely extremely meaningful. We're also pleased because we did something of a calculation last year to say that for every uh percentage point improvement, we put about 30,000 more people into the workforce. And in fact, the number was 33,000. So we're like, that was a really good calculation that we did. Uh, my deputy secretary, Osmar Padia, I want to give him a shout out because he did that calculation. It's really good. So we have also recently hit an all-time employment high for this state. So yeah, these are that's that's a lot of success.
SPEAKER_01That's a lot of that's a lot of great work in a short amount of time. Like the numbers you're talking about right here, you know. Let's I I with apologies for interrupting you here, but I want to take a beat. Like, these are the kind of numbers that people spend entire careers chasing that level of change that you guys have been able through thoughtful reorganization, thoughtful implementation, and really like investing in that culture and that buy-in, that people can spend entire careers chasing a percentage growth in labor force participation rate, getting 33,000 people who were otherwise completely unengaged from the workforce back in. That's huge. That's huge.
SPEAKER_00It is huge. Yeah, it it really is. And I do want to be clear though that I can't and I don't want to take all the credit for that. So certainly we have undertaken major reforms in the workforce space, but we also at the very beginning of the Landry administration undertook some really tremendous reforms to Louisiana economic development and to our business climate. So we can't get people back into the workforce without great jobs for them to get into. So I want to say we're really tackling this from all sides. And so the growth in good jobs absolutely is a pull. We are working with individuals to get the barriers out of their way and help them ascend into those good jobs. That is also part of the story. And then also, really, the efforts at uh our Department of Health are very important as well because they're working with people who are receiving public benefits and making sure that they connect them to our system so that it's it really is about the the one door out of the system into the American dream, right? But it these numbers are deeply meaningful. They they really illustrate a tremendous impact on a lot of lives.
SPEAKER_01That's so important. And it's it's so easy for a lot of us, you know, myself in particular, it's easy to get tied up in stats and forget about the real people that these statistics signify. And that this is the numbers that we just talked about here, like that's like you said, that's a lot of lives changed, and for the better. That's not often the kind of stories we're telling here. So it's it's a great story for all of Louisiana, not just you know, Louisiana works, safe or social safety net services, workforce services. This is a story that America should be excited about. We're taking the guidance, we're doing all the things, and the proof is showing up that that when you make these smart decisions, make these smart reforms, this better vision is possible. We're not just daydreaming anymore.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, exactly. Like reforms like this do have a material impact on people stuck in poverty. Louisiana has a terrible problem with generational poverty. It has absolutely been a priority for Governor Landry to tackle generational poverty head on. This is one of the ways in which we're doing this, but it does pay off. And honestly, and I do believe this the system is so fundamentally broken that I actually don't really believe that we can make it worse. I really feel like these reforms have to move us in the right direction simply because we're changing the existing system.
SPEAKER_01All of us who are in this space and trying to chase after the vision that, you know, Utah with their one-door model, the closer, you know, in-time proximity that you guys have kind of forged this initial path for here in Louisiana, because I know here in West Virginia, we're trying to do a lot of the same things. We're trying to tackle some of these same issues. West Virginia, God bless us, has been dead last in labor force participation rate. The story that you're telling here is so relevant to West Virginia audiences. And it it gives me so much hope, kind of working on this from a policy side and not from inside the programs and the agencies and administrations that are delivering these services to people. But it brings me so much hope that it's a similar story, it's a similar starting point. This isn't my listeners and you know, the people that I talk to in West Virginia, when we talk about Utah, it's so easy to say, like, oh, well, Utah's different for insert all the reasons here. Yes, yes. But you you can't throw that line down in the same way about Louisiana. And it's like, no, look, they've done things and they've done smart changes, and this is moving in the right direction. And like you said here too, to deliver a punch is sort of an easy target. Things are so fundamentally broken. We are all kind of playing with house money.
SPEAKER_00That's a great way to put it. I do, I do want to just make sure because I do try to say this every time I complain about the brokenness and dysfunction of the system. It is not the people within the system working within the system that are broken and dysfunctional. These are, and it, you know, I was speaking about the mission-driven people on the true front lines. There are so many people in this system who are unbelievably dedicated to the work and to the people they serve. The good things that come out of that system are because good people inside the system break something to make something good happen. So we just hope that these reforms are gonna require less of that from them and make it a lot more straightforward for them to deliver on those um on those promises to the people.
SPEAKER_01That's a fantastic reminder for everyone. It's not the people working within this, it's just sort of the fundamental structure, the rules of the game. But the people who are in the middle of this, it's the the beating hearts of it. Yeah.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Well, I kind of want to want to tie this up here as we're we're coming up towards the end of this discussion. I just headed towards this. West Virginia is looking to make the same kinds of changes. Um, here in March, Governor Patrick Morrissey announced what we're calling the work first task force. Uh, that it's in the spirit, it's all the same spirit of what uh has been done in Louisiana. What are the key lessons you would like to leave West Virginia with out of your experiences?
SPEAKER_00So first and foremost, you have to be decisive, you have to move quickly, and you can't build universal consensus or a complete pathway to change before you start the change. So people want to spend a great deal of time shopping things around, soliciting feedback, incorporating everybody's thoughts and feelings. That is a wonderful goal, but there isn't time for that. And the longer that you spend doing that, the more people kind of erode the momentum and the will for change. And that's how systems and bureaucracies obstruct change. We have to simply decide as an act of will that we are going to do better, lay out a picture of what that looks like, and start moving towards it with bold changes on a regular basis, and don't obsess over getting all your details laid out prior to taking action. So be decisive and take action, is the short version of that.
SPEAKER_01I love that because what you're talking about is with this sort of threat of paralysis by analysis. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yes. The changes do affect so many people at so many different levels that you want to have that certain, you want to have that kind of a buy-in along the way, but it's also kind of what you talked about from the beginning. This is an opportunity. We want you to be a part of bringing this opportunity to life. And in any sort of a big change situation like this, there may just be individuals who kind of take a look at the vision, hear the pitch for it, and just decide like this isn't for me. And there's there shouldn't be any hard feelings about that. Hey, we're sorry that this doesn't align. You know, happy to help you find what the next great place is for your time, treasure, and talents.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And we respect that that this new direction isn't that you're not going to be kind of coming along with us on this journey, but we'll help you get there on whatever your next journey looks like.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly right. And I have certainly had that conversation with people exactly the way that you're describing. But I also would say that if we look at the world around us right now, you know, certainty is not a luxury that we have available to us right now.
SPEAKER_01Lord, Lord.
SPEAKER_00We've got to get out of, you know, the comfort zone and stasis. And we are simply gonna have to move and adapt at a pace that we are not currently accustomed to. But if we don't do that, we're gonna fall behind. So we have got to move aggressively.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I feel like that's a that's a perfect kind of note to end on. Don't be afraid to move aggressively.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, once again, I want to thank you for joining us today. And this has been such a fantastic conversation. Leaves me with so much hope for so much excitement about what's happening in Louisiana and so much hope for what West Virginia can accomplish. If we follow these lessons that you've laid out for us from your experiences, some some hard won along the way, I'm sure. But this is this is such a fantastic conversation to have. And I'm so glad you shared with us today.
SPEAKER_00I always love chatting with you, Jesse. We always have good conversations, and I appreciate being invited to join you today.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, this has been the Cardinal Direction Podcast with Secretary of Louisiana Works, Susie Shawan. Thank you for listening. This has been the Cardinal Direction Podcast, a deep dive into America's Social Safety Net. Follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast so you can stay informed when a new episode airs. Ready to learn more? Read about our mission and learn how to contact us at cardinalinstitute.com. Thank you for listening.