Doubt and Assurance of Salvation

In this week's episode, Crystal sits down with her son, Chaz, to discuss some common causes for doubting your salvation and the encouragement we can find in how Jesus dealt with those who doubted. Chaz, now an associate pastor serving in Seattle, Washington, spent many years struggling with doubt and has much encouragement to share on what finally helped him get victory in this area of his life. 

Even if you've never doubted your salvation, you probably know someone who has--or is currently--so give this a listen and share it with others. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi there! Welcome to Wisdom for Wednesday, your midweek pause for truth, encouragement, and practical faith. I'm your host, Crystal Ratcliffe, author, speaker, and fellow traveler on this journey of growing in God's Word. Each week we'll dive into scripture together and have the opportunity to be encouraged in the truth that never changes. If you're able, grab your Bible, a cup of coffee, and let's seek God's wisdom together. Hi there, and welcome back to the podcast today. I am very excited for the topic. We are talking about doubting your salvation and assurance of salvation today. And I've asked my son to be with me on this, and you'll hear more about why in just a moment. Welcome back to the podcast, Chaz. I'm glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Well, I'm glad to get to be here with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yes, and I'm excited about our topic today because it's something that I get contacted about a lot. Um, a lot of people struggle with doubt and just having an assurance of salvation. And I knew that you have worked through this issue yourself. And so I thought it would be good to hear your perspective and maybe get um get some tips from you of how you would encourage people who are struggling with times of doubt, doubting their salvation.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Uh yeah, I um struggled real heavily with it for um, I think about eight years or so of my life. And um, it's been some people who struggle with it, they have a message or they have a single moment where all of it gets resolved. But I also know for me and for many others, sometimes it's more of a step-by-step walk with God to allow him to be the one to bring healing and him to bring the one, or him to be the one, sorry, that would, you know, work to unwind all the thoughts and everything, all the doubts, and and we'll get into that a little bit toward the end, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

But yeah. I know that we have talked in the past about how your personality, some of your personality traits kind of have lended, I guess, lent itself to struggling with doubt. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, I'd I'd say that uh that fits pretty well. I'm I'm pretty analytical thinker. Um, and sometimes I think people um allow reason to overtake faith. And I was just reading, I've been reading through the gospels again here the past couple weeks, and uh just coming through and seeing time and time again Jesus dealing with the little children and telling his disciples uh that the kingdom of God and even the work of the kingdom of God is something that's built upon childlike faith and not trying to reason everything out like the Pharisees and the Sadducees and everything. So I I definitely say that some people like myself who may be deeper thinkers or more analytical in their mind can allow that to trump the simple truth of what God has said at times.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

So yeah, I I've noticed that too when I've read through the gospels about the children and having that childlike faith. And I think sometimes we just we just complicate it, is what it comes down to, is we make it more complicated than God ever intended it to be. So that's why I'm really excited for you to kind of jump in here. I know you have some notes that you want to share with us, so why don't you just start and we'll we'll see where it goes here.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Okay. Um, I think to begin, it it's good for us to realize this that doubt of salvation um and assurance of salvation. This topic is more common than I think a lot of people realize. Um it's it's definitely a problem. Um, it's a sin problem, is what it is. And that may be starting out a little harsh with it, but it is a sin problem. It's it's unbelief. Uh Paul, I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, and the entire book of Hebrews is written to a group of people that is struggling with unbelief. And in Numbers chapter 13 and 14, when Israel fails to believe God and cross the river and go into the promised land, there's 40 years of consequence because of that. And then in Mark 9, you have the account where Peter, James, and John come down from the mountain with Jesus, and the other disciples have been trying to cast out this demon from this father's child. And when they ask Jesus, why weren't we able to cast him out? Jesus turns around and says, This kind cometh not but by prayer and fasting. And what he's getting at is you're you're being faithless, you're doing you're relying more in the flesh than you are in your faith in God to fix this issue. And so you've hit a brick wall in what your flesh can do. And so it it is an unbelief problem. Um, the to doubt is to um have deliberations or interrogations about a particular subject within. And I think that a lot of people, when it comes to doubt of salvation specifically, um, I think a lot of people struggle with it and never mention it. It is a very, it can be a very quiet issue.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Um I had uh fellow students in Bible college that I had no idea were struggling with it until either they were coming across the platform at the church getting baptized after service because they got saved, or you know, they maybe they got assured of their salvation and they mentioned it to me later. I just had I had no idea that they were struggling. I think some people struggle to maybe seek help because, and I know I was this way too at various times in my own dealings with the problem, is some people just are ashamed to struggle with the foundational truth of what it's all about.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

And to to struggle with it and to even go to ask help of your pastor of your pastor's wife or whoever it may be, seem I think the devil can trick you into thinking that, well, if I'm struggling with this very basic foundational truth, uh, it's something that's shameful. I I'm embarrassed to even bring up that I'm having trouble with it when really uh seeking help is something that you that you really should uh look for.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, yeah. I can remember just watching you as a parent, and we had so many conversations about it over the years. And of course, I well, I guess we should go back and say that I was the one who was with you. I led you to the Lord when you were six. And I never wanted to tell you you got saved. I know you got saved because I didn't want to be, you know, I didn't want to, I didn't want you to be relying on what I said about that day. But so I kind of struggled as your mom not just giving you the assurance, I guess. I wanted it to come from the Lord, but also I think what I noticed in your experience and then many others is that when someone is struggling with doubt, they're really unable to grow beyond it in other areas. They had this is like you said, it's a foundational truth that really we have to get it settled and get that assurance of salvation so that you can grow in other areas the way the Lord wants you to.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, and that's that's actually something that comes from a passage that I'll mention in a few moments. Uh, the the chapter uh chapter 24 of Luke is probably one of my favorite passages in the Bible overall. Um, most likely because I have struggled with this for a large chunk of my life to this point. But Jesus um there addresses that very fact with the disciples, and we'll probably mention a little bit more here in a moment, but um, there in uh the first few verses of Luke 24, it says that the women, when they come to the tomb, they're perplexed. And it speaks of the disciples wondering, uh, Peter specifically wondering in himself, and uh speaks of the other disciples when the women come and tell them of the resurrection, they they doubt, thinking that it's just a big idle, vain tale, the resurrection and everything. And if you look into that word perplexed, um, it has a couple meanings, but one of the primary meanings actually is hesitant, unmoving. So you have these disciples where Jesus has to deal with their doubt and unbelief regarding the resurrection before he can even give them the Great Commission, because so long as they move past the resurrection doubting, they're going to enter into this great work of the Great Commission, still having doubtful hearts. And so he has to address the doubt problem because they're perplexed, they're hesitant, they're stuck, they're slow to believe. They're not, uh He Jesus specifically says they're around verse 41 or so. He tells them or he says that they're slow of heart to believe, they're not easily, they see him right in front of their face, but they're not easily believing it. And they're very slow to it, they're very hesitant. And when it comes to doubt specifically of salvation, because it because it is the foundational issue of every life that everybody has to deal with first and foremost, when you're shaky on that, you are shaky on everything else regarding spiritual things. And so you're you're right about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah. So when we think about doubt of salvation, we're talking about those who are just struggling with having that assurance for for various reasons. So, what are some of the reasons that you think that some people what do you think some of the reasons are that some people doubt?

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Um I guess I'll give it to you in some in just a few questions here. Uh, some people I think struggle with different areas of the quote-unquote salvation testimony. So one question that might be asked is Did God forgive me or did God save me? Um, another one might be, did I did I pray or did I say the right thing? Did I truly believe? Did I truly place my faith in Christ? Uh for some like myself, maybe a question might arise, was I was I too young to understand? Was I too young to actually get saved? Um and another one is, uh and this might be a big one too, is if I'm saved, then why am I struggling? Um and I've regarding that last one, maybe more specifically, I've heard I've heard stories of preachers that have said from the pulpit that if you're doubting your salvation, you're not saved. And they make a very uh blatant statement like that, that if you're struggling with your salvation, then you're not actually saved. And I will just say that that is a lie. Uh, just because you are struggling with salvation does not mean necessarily that you're not saved. I'm not gonna say that if you're struggling with your salvation, that you um it's not a possibility that you do need to get saved. I believe that does happen, but to blatantly say that if you're struggling and you have a salvation testimony that you are actually not saved, I think it's a lie, is what it is, because it's actually it's just not biblical. I just gave an example of Luke 24 where the disciples were struggling with the foundational truth of the resurrection and doubting that. Yeah, and so it is completely possible for a child of God who has genuinely been saved to simply struggle with the salvation testimony. Was I too young? Did God actually forgive me? Did I mean what I said? All these different questions can arise. Um, largely I think because it's it's an area if Satan can shake you up there, he he can shake you up anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah. I would add one more just based on your dad's testimony, because he doubted his salvation for a little bit. Because I guess the question would be if I'm saved, then why am I continuing in this sin? Um, because he would he had you know sin in his life, and because of that, he started doubting his salvation. Like, if I'm saved, why am I doing this? And so that would be another one I think we could add um that might cause someone to doubt.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, that's true. Um, and I I actually have that down to mention um maybe a little bit more specifically here in a minute, but it um I've definitely heard of people where they go and they do something that that maybe it's minor, but I think for a lot of people, if they go and they've been away from the Lord and they've done maybe some more major sins, I know we don't we shouldn't ever try and gauge which sins are worse than others because they're all the same in the eyes of God, but some children of God might go out and be backslidden and leave the way of the Lord and everything, and then they're they're out there like the prodigal son, wallowing in the pit or wallowing in the pig side, and they come to themselves and they question well, how can I actually be saved? I've been doing this, I've been doing this. And so it's definitely that's definitely true. That's another question that uh some may ask that struggle with their salvation. Um, and what I want to say about all those questions is that the source of the problem is may not necessarily be that the person is lost, but what all these questions show us as a kind of core issue is that the straight and clear truth of salvation has become tangled up and blurry to them in some way. So it it may be tangled up in somebody's mind because they're lost and they need to get saved. That that might be a very that might be a very true thing. I know again, if I look back even to Bible college, going to Bible college and and watching other guys that I sat with in the classroom that that preached in class and you know were doing all these things. They they come to a place where they were struggling, and it turns out they actually needed to get saved.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, that's my testimony. I mean, that is that is my testimony that um I had I had made a profession of faith as a young girl. I had just followed my brother down the aisle at church, and I never it was never personal to me. And so I began to rely on that memory. Um, and then all the things that I was doing to kind of prove I was a Christian, I guess you could say I was being such a good kid and all this and relying on myself in many ways. Instead of the Lord had to bring me to a point where I recognized that no, I was a sinner and I was in need of salvation and it and have that personal conviction um for me. And so that's that would be my testimony that I did, I was lost and I needed to get saved.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, and so it's it's true in that vein that um the problem for a lost person is that salvation is the truth of it, is all tangled up and blurry, and for some, like yourself, and for others, the solution is that eventually the Lord needs to get you to a place where you see you need to get saved. And but it's the same principle still for believers as well that are saved. The issue with doubt is that the straight, clear truth of salvation has been tangled up in their mind in some way, and there's many factors that I've found from other people's testimonies, there's some that are even scriptural, that um as to reasons why the truth would get tangled up and blurry in somebody's mind. And in the first one comes from that Luke 24 passage that I mentioned earlier, and that would be that one's circumstances um can cause them to doubt their salvation. Uh, we see in Matthew chapter 11 that John the Baptist, who Jesus said was the greatest prophet of the time, is thrown into prison and he sends a message to Jesus and says, Are you the one that should come, or are we supposed to be looking for another? And so John's circumstances vastly change and he's thrown into prison, and so his faith is shaken up about who Jesus is. Uh, same thing with the disciples in Luke 24. They had this big expectation, and and as you read through the gospels, this isn't like a secret or a or some kind of hidden truth you have to mine out. The disciples had expectations of why Jesus was there.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Um, they they, of course, we know they thought that it had to do with him coming and setting up the physical kingdom and booting Rome out of the place and everything. And so they have these expectations, just like John the Baptist had expectations, but those expectations of God clashed with their reality, and suddenly now they're all shaken up about the resurrection and are asked, they have all these different ideas. That's another word I mentioned. The word perplexed earlier, perplexed has the idea of coming to a crossroads, and so in their minds, they're coming to this crossroads, this fork in the road, and they have so many different directions their mind could go about what's taken place and where Jesus is now, why is the tomb empty? And they're they have all these different doubts going on, and they're wondering in themselves, they're believing not for joy, even though Jesus had told them many times throughout the gospels, this is gonna happen, and I'm gonna rise again the third day. And it's when you get to Luke 24 and you get to the end of each gospel, you're like, Well, did they even did they even hear what he said for three and a half years? You know? Yeah, and so their circum or their while their circumstances, the reality of the situation they came to clashed with their expectations of God. And so it caused them to get shaky. And Jesus, he addresses them and he says, Why do thoughts arise in your hearts? And if you go and look at the Greek word that directly applies to that word thoughts, the translation goes straight to the word doubt. It goes to deliberations within the soul, questionings, interrogations. So Jesus says, Why do these thoughts, why do these doubts arise in your heart? And then he says that word arise, if you go and do just a simple word study on it, it points to the illustration of seeds sprouting up. So seed is planted and the little sprout comes up out of the ground. And so Jesus is literally asking them why the truth of the resurrection is now all. All tangled up with all these other weeds that have been sprouting up in their minds and in their hearts. And it all started because their expectations met reality. And there was this big clash that shook them up. And so I think that one's circumstances and what they think God's supposed to do in their circumstances or what they've thought God's supposed to do in their life can clash with what reality turns out to be. And that can cause them to shove their faith to shake. And more specifically, that can cause somebody to doubt the truth of salvation in their life. Another area, you mentioned it briefly, but another area that might cause the truth of salvation to get tangled up in somebody's mind is the is the area of sin. And now we understand that all of us are sinners, and so we're going to sin throughout our lives. And so the idea of sin causing somebody to doubt their salvation more so lies in the lies in unrepentant sin.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

So a persistent life of sin. And John wrote in 1 John many examples. You can just read through all five of those chapters. And he gives, he's writing his epistle there. Those were his words. And he said in his testimony to me, he said, My during that time I was so miserable. I hated him. I was so angry with him and everything. But the worst part about it was while I was hating him, I was doubting my salvation the entire time. It's because persistent sin is something that can cause you to doubt your salvation, because sin drives a wedge between you and God. God says in the Psalms that if I regard iniquity in my heart, if I have sin in there and I know it's in there and I don't do anything about it, that God will not hear me.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

That God chooses that if I'm going to live that way, if I'm going to live knowing that I'm at odds against him, he's going to choose as a result not to hear me. So there's there's a sin, sin messes up the fellowship. It drives a wedge between you and God. And so it shouldn't necessarily surprise us that when we when one would live in persistent sin, that they would struggle with their salvation.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, I like how you explained that too. Because that verse, if I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me, is talking about sin that you are aware of and you like it. You know what I mean? That's what it's talking about. Because I know some people are like, well, we're all sinners, so I I always sin, so God's not going to hear me, but that's not what it's talking about. It's talking about when God has revealed sin to you and you are choosing to continue to walk in it.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah. And that's um the I mean, that just brings up a thing I've been studying the past couple days. Um I'll be preaching here on Father's Day, covering for pastoral day while they're at youth camp. And um, the passage I'm coming through in my series through 1 Samuel is where Israel has rejected God as their king. And you get to chapter number 10 in the latter half of the chapter, and Samuel comes to them to present Saul as God's choice for king. And before he even mentions Saul's name, he says, just remember you're unrepentant and rebellious and rejecting God at this time. And then he brings Saul out, and of course they're saying, God save the king, God saved the king. And they're all excited because they see that that it appears that God's still working in their life, and it appears that God has blessed them with exactly what they wanted. And all the while Samuel preaches to them in chapter 10, and then he spends the entirety of chapter number 12 preaching to them about the fact you have sin in your heart, and that is what you have to get dealt with in order for things to be square with God again.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

So it's um sin is definitely another thing that one needs to. I I would just encourage your listeners that may be listening to this and struggling with their salvation, asking yourself, is there something that I know that I am doing against God right now, or that I'm not obeying, that I need to submit to Him about and get right with Him, because that might be the very source of your doubt and why you're tempting. Um, and so we talked about circumstances, we talked about sin uh being causes for um one to doubt their salvation. But I I think that as I have dealt with it in my own life and as I've spoken with others who've struggled with it, I think that this next one is probably the biggest reason why someone why someone would doubt their salvation, and that is simply this they do not know God. And now when I say that, I'm not saying that they're not saved, I'm saying they do not know the savior that they have, right? Yes, and so when you walk through your life without walking with God, you are easily crippled with questions about God's truth and about who God is. When you don't walk with God, when you don't read his word, when you don't pray, when you don't witness, when you're not in church, when you're not doing what we would call the Christian basics, it should not surprise you when the doctrines and the truth of God becomes shaky to you. And you don't and and you well, that even transitions back into our whole circumstances thing. So you question God's truth when your circumstances clash with your reality and your expectations of God because you don't know Him like you should.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Your persistent sin causes questions about God's truth in your life because if you're living with persistent sin, you're not living the life God wants you to live according to his word. And so many, I I truly believe this is ultimately when I look back on that time, that eight years where I struggled with it myself. When I look back on that time, the the reason that I struggled so much, the reason that I was so such an anxiety-driven teenager was not because it was hormones and all this stuff that the world would tell you. It's because I did not know God. And because I did not know God, I questioned his foundational truths like salvation in my life. And what it comes down to is that many Christians struggle with their salvation because they do not keep a constant gaze on Christ and they do not keep their eyes in the Word of God.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah. And I would say, even just talking about this, I'm reminded of um, I did an episode on the podcast, I think it's titled, What Do I Know About My God? And it wasn't talking about salvation there, but any, I guess, growth that we're gonna see in our Christian life is going to happen as the result of knowing God more because the more that we know him, the more we trust him. You know, because like you're saying, even in this situation, the same, the same kind of thing, um knowing God helps you when your circumstances do, let's say you do have tragedy, trials, and tribulations, you're not gonna have a shaky faith in those times if you know God and you know him in that personal way. And so I can see how the importance of knowing God, not only in all areas of our spiritual growth, but like you're saying, right here in the very foundation of everything, the more that you know God, the more you're able to trust him and trust that he did what he said he would do when you called upon him for salvation.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Yeah, it's I I that's why I think at all, um, even you know, the circumstances side of it, the sin side of it, and any other reason why someone might doubt is it it comes down into this funnel that brings us to the very core of the issue, which is that um in the so I'll I'll bring it back to all those questions we asked that somebody might ask if they're struggling. I was I too young, did God forgive me? All this stuff, all those questions have one thing in common, and it's the first person pronoun that it's about the question is about me or it's about I. Yes, and what I did, what I said, um, what God did for me, you know, it's all centered around someone's self, and what we have to remember about salvation, and David does a good job of this throughout the Psalms, is that he says that salvation is of the Lord, or he even gives God the possessive, he says that it's God's salvation. So, in I mean, in reality, I can't say that it's my salvation, right? Because it's God's way, it's God's means, it's God's power, it's God's working in your life to show you you need to get saved. It's all centered around what God has done on the cross for you, it's all centered around the God of heaven, when he says, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There's nothing in there about you assuring yourself. Um, it it says that if you just call upon me, um, and maybe it and this may seem like you know a weird pivot, but but if we just go to Romans 10 real quick and just quote some verses, the God says that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. And then he says again in verse number 13, for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In there you have two things you have belief upon Jesus in his resurrection, and you have confession. So it all starts in the heart. That what you have to believe is not, okay, if I believe enough in my prayer, or if I if I believe these words I'm I'm repeating or I'm saying, then God's gonna save me. No, it says, believe the gospel. Yeah, believe that you have no part in your salvation, that you cannot do anything to save yourself. All your righteousnesses, the things that you would deem to be good enough for God, are as filthy rags according to the prophet Isaiah. You believe that you are not sufficient, that God knew that, and that while you were yet a sinner, Christ died for you and made the way for you, and that he rose again and he's a living savior, and thus he's able to save you today. That gospel, you believe that in your heart, and then from that belief comes the choice to confess to God and say, God, I believe you are the savior, and I ask you to save me. And that's all that it is. And if you just rewind everything I just said, it has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with the God of the salvation. And so when you don't know the God of salvation, do not be surprised when you start to question the God of salvation. Um, because if you go through the Bible and you read and you read different accounts of people who they come and they repent before God, or they come and ask God to save them, it says God forgives them. There's so many examples of that.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Okay, so I do just want to ask for some clarification here because you just included the word repent, um, which we we read in the gospels. We even read that being part of John the Baptist message is that you need to repent and believe. But the verses you read in Romans, it doesn't actually use the word repent. So, how would you explain the importance of repentance and salvation or what it means in regards to salvation?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yes, so repentance is definitely there. Um, and it is a necessary part of salvation because repentance is a change of mind, very simply put. Uh, you can think of it as a 180-degree turn, uh, a change of mind. So you have in salvation, you have a change of mind about yourself, that you are a sinner that's at enmity with a holy God. Uh, you have a change of mind about sin, that these things that you do that the world would say are mistakes or flaws, they're not actually flaws that all of humanity shares. Your sins are trespasses against God. So you have a change of mind about yourself, about sin, and then a change of mind about Christ and the gospel, very simply that He is the Savior and He is the way. So that would be repentance kind of in a nutshell, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Okay. I just wanted to ask because I know sometimes that word, there's some debate about how it's used, and I just wanted to make sure that we were being clear about that. So let's go ahead and get back to where we were kind of talking about the um doubting of salvation and how we have we do that often because we don't know God. We don't know him like we should, and so it's a process that we kind of need to to get to know God more.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yes. So it's um when you don't know the one that saved you because you don't walk with him, you can't be surprised when life and your salvation testimony get blurry and all tangled up uh because you've gotten your eyes off the light. Um, if you don't know God, it's difficult to find peace because he's the author of peace, not of confusion. It's difficult to find light, it's difficult to find his ear on matters, uh, making you more susceptible to listening to other voices that come up in your heart. Um, and so the I think we've kind of covered a good span of questions that are asked and the issue of doubt and the issue of uh why someone is not assured of their salvation and what can cause that truth to get shaky or tangled up. And so if I can bring it into maybe a solution here that can that maybe there's a listener here that's struggling even today, um, the best place that you can start is the place that Paul wanted the Hebrews to start with. If you go to Hebrews chapter number 12, verses 1 through 3, he says, Wherefore, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. And so all the questions we mentioned earlier, I mentioned this just a few moments ago, but all the questions we mentioned earlier about of questions coming from people who are who are doubting are all centered around me and I and what I did and and how God responds to me and everything. You have to get back to this that Christ is the center of God's salvation, not you and I. That what Paul is addressing with the Hebrews here, he brings up the cloud of witnesses. Uh, that that would, I know some people take that into um meaning just the saints in heaven, that there's this idea that they're all looking down and they're cheering us on and everything. What Paul is um, what Paul is actually getting at there is that there's a lot of people in the faith and out of the faith that are around us, this great cloud of witnesses as we're running our race for Christ. And we can start looking at them, and so he starts to draw this illustration of how when you're running the race, you're starting to look at other people, and you got the sin that's does so easily beset us. You have these weights, these things that come. And just like Peter, you can start to get your eyes off Jesus and as you're going on your race with Christ, and when you get your eyes off of him, then you can grow weary, you can grow faint. Um, and then he gives in the lat in in the verses after verse number three, four different examples of what happens when you do not look diligently. In in verse 15, he says, looking diligently. Um, so the idea is uh Pastor Kyle has said it this way that everybody, whether it's a Christian that needs a shirt of their salvation, whether it's somebody listening today that needs to just get saved, whether it's some other Christian struggling with some other thing, is the solution all starts with this truth that you and I don't need a casual glance at Jesus. We need a constant gaze. So we we don't need to casually glance at Jesus whenever it's convenient, we don't need to um be spotty with our Bible reading and all these things throughout the week. We need a constant gaze at Christ. Because as Paul brings up there in verses two and three, uh, looking under Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and then he goes on the joy that was set before him endured the cross. He's talking about what Jesus did. When you get your eyes off of you and you get them onto Christ, and you start considering Christ, as Paul says in verse number three, considering what he endured, considering the cross, considering the gospel, the more that you're going to realize as you can constantly gaze at him that you know what, it's all on him, it's not on me. It's not on if I was too young, it's not on if I said the right thing, it's not on if God forgave me or not, because according to his word, if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised from the dead, I shall be saved. It's an instantaneous moment thing. And so the first thing that I would encourage anyone who's struggling today as they listen with is this that you need to start by getting your gaze back on Jesus and start considering him. Because one of two things will happen. Either you will consider Christ and you'll realize that you need to get saved. I mentioned it just a minute ago. God's not the author of confusion, but of peace. So if you're not saved and you're struggling with the truth of salvation and it's all tangled up in your mind and in your heart, if you get your gaze on Jesus Christ, you start getting in the word. God's going to just show you that if you're lost. God's not, if you're not saved, God's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. You cannot say God is hiding salvation from you. You just need to get your gaze on him so he can make it clear. So that's the first person. The second person that that might be listening to this who's struggling with this concept and issue in their own walk with the Lord of doubting their salvation, but they're generally say, they're genuinely saved, is you need to look unto Jesus and constantly gaze on Jesus because you're going to first realize it's all about him, it's not about me. And as we've discussed a little bit already, the more you gaze at him, the more you're going to get the right glimpse of him. The more you're going to understand that he means it when he says he forgave you. When he speaks of childlike faith, he means what he says. You're going to get to know God more when you look to him more. So that's the first solution that I would encourage listeners to start with is to do not casually glance at Christ, constantly gaze at him. And then the second thing comes from that Luke 24, and I know I've used that a lot, but I really think the Lord left it in his word for situations just like this. Because we know uh I know people give Thomas a lot of uh a lot about how he doubted and he wasn't there, he wasn't there for church on Sunday night and all this, and so he missed out and everything. And so he's they call him doubting Thomas and everything, but Luke 24 and other passages are quite clear that all the disciples and the followers of Jesus as a whole were struggling. And in Luke 24, I really believe the Lord has left it there for us for even situations like this, because what Jesus did, there's a few different um interactions that Jesus or the angels have in Luke 24. You have the women at the tomb that are struggling, and you have the disciples, obviously, when the women come to them, you have Peter, who's struggling and wondering in himself, the Bible says around verse 12 or so. And then you have the two on the road to Emmaus, and then you have again the disciples as a whole. And in each of these times, with the exception of uh the conversation that the women have with the disciples, when Jesus shows up, or the angels at the beginning, they always point the disciples or the followers of Christ to what Jesus said. So the women at the tomb, the angels say, He's risen as he said.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Remember, remember his words is what they say. Then you get to the two on the road to Emmaus, Jesus appears, and they don't know it's him yet. But he walks up, and and this part makes me chuckle all the time. They're talking about, you know, crucifixion and everything that's transpired. And Jesus walks up and says, Oh, what you talking about? What's what's got you down? And they say, Oh, well, don't you know? And he says, Well, what things? As if he doesn't know. And so they expound to him all the things, and they say, Well, now, on top of all that, he's missing, and the women have come and they're they're talking in these idol tales, and we don't understand a thing they're saying. They're talking about angels and that they've had this interaction with angels and everything, and we just don't get it. And Jesus says, 'Oh fools, and slow of heart to believe.' And he takes them, it says he starts with Moses and the law and the prophets. He walks them through the Old Testament and he brings them back to the Word of God. Then you get into the upper room and he appears, and you would think that would be enough.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

He's standing right there, but he has to eat some fish to prove himself. And then, but even then, as I mentioned before, around verse 41 or so, I believe it is, he says to, or it says of them in their state that they were that they were um, they believed not for joy. They were slow of heart to believe, like the two on the road to Emmaus. And Jesus, he says, Why do thoughts arise in your hearts? And then what he does is the same exact thing the angels did with the women at the tomb, and the same thing he did with the two on the road to Emmaus. He starts with Moses and he walks them through the Old Testament and he walks them through what he had told them. He brings them back to the Word of God. And he begins. I mentioned before how the word thoughts talks about doubts, and the word arise in that verse talks about um these seeds sprouting up, and the the truth of salvation is all tangled up in a knot with all these different weeds. And what Jesus does every time with the doubters is he takes a minute to start unwinding the knot and pull this pulling this doubtful sprout away and pulling this one away, and he starts unraveling everything so that the truth for them, it was about the truth of the resurrection. In this case, what I can say is that when it comes to doubts about salvation, Jesus is a God that works to unravel the doubtful sprouts. And what that requires first is that you look to him, you constantly gaze on him, but then you get your face in his word because he will do this. Is this was really encouraging to me when I struggled with this a lot, that Jesus always took a moment with the doubters to help.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

He he there were plenty of times he upbraided his disciples, the Bible says, for unbelief.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

He said, He said in one case, oh faithless, uh, why are you faithless? You know, and um so there are times where he addresses it right to the point, but there are times like here in Luke 24 where Jesus is one, God is one that understands why you may be doubting, and he's a God that's willing to put in the work to help get everything unraveled. But he can't do that until you start constantly gazing at him, until you look at his word as well. Because what he's gonna do is he's gonna take his word. And uh for me, this is actually uh this is what got me started toward kind of just reading through my Bible. Um, I used to be one where when I did read, I would focus on like specific chapters, or I would just look at specific books, and I just stay in those books and just stay there and stay there and stay there. Um, over time I've gotten to where what I do, and actually, when I was back home in Kansas, Pastor Ron encouraged me with this as well that just start in Genesis and just read through your Bible and then start over and do it again. Yeah, start over and do it again. So that's how I personally do my devotions. And as I've done that, where I read everything cover to cover, and then I start over again and repeat and repeat and repeat, you see everything God wants you to see. All the you start to see more connections, you start to see things. And for this particular truth, when you open the word of God and you're struggling with your salvation, and you start in Genesis and you read the revelation and you start over, every single time Jesus is gonna be. I don't mean this in a weird way, okay. We know the Holy Spirit is within us. Okay, the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus Himself is there with you reading. And the more you read cover to cover, the more you're looking unto him, the more he's gonna be working to unravel all the doubts. Make sure your expectations get set on not what you think he's supposed to do, but on what he says he does. Starts to unravel things, starts to show you the sin that's causing you to doubt. He's he's just starting to do this big unraveling process, and he's right there with you every day. As you're in his word, as you're looking unto him. He's a God that will sit there and take the time to unravel the doubtful sprouts. And so I really think the key to this issue lies in keeping a constant gaze on Christ and being in the book. Um, whether you are saved or whether you need to be assured, healing comes when you look to Jesus and his word and give him the chance to unravel the doubtful sprouts about your salvation.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

I think that's good. I think that's a really good point and a good visual way to see it. And I know that um I think I say it too, I say it all the time, you know, it's about getting into God's word for yourself. And that helps in so many areas of our lives, and especially in this one, I think you're exactly right. So thank you so much, Chaz, for taking the time to be with me on the podcast today and to talk about this issue. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

You're welcome. I I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I do hope that you found this helpful and that you will kind of keep it in your back pocket for when you know someone needs some encouragement in this area and share it with a friend. Um, I am planning a ministry mindset episode next week. And then after that, I don't know. Well, I have an idea, but I haven't completely made up my mind yet. So you can be praying for me about that in the direction we go next on the podcast. I did ask for suggestions on my social media. So if you did not get to respond to that question box, go ahead and send me a message. There's a link in the show notes. You can just send me a message if you have some ideas or something you'd like to see or hear on the podcast. I should say here because it's not a visual podcast. So next week, when the episode comes out, I will be on a plane. I will be headed to Pigeon Forge for the Quiet Resting Places ladies meeting. And I'm so excited about that. If you would be praying for the meeting, I'm excited to see what the Lord's gonna do in the lives of the ladies who are there. And if you're able to come, come and say hi. I would love to, I would love to meet you. I would love to hear from you. So thank you again for listening to the podcast, and we will see you back here next week.