Sean Jones Interviews Wycliffe Gordon: JLCO, Teaching Jazz, and the Trombone's Sell

Show Notes: 107: Wycliffe Gordon with Sean Jones

This episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations, recorded live on the recent Journey of Jazz cruise, features trumpeter and educator Sean Jones interviewing fellow brassman Wycliffe Gordon about his remarkable life and storied career in music. Jones and Gordon share a similar background, both having Georgia roots and musical beginnings in the church and gospel tradition. The candid conversation covers Wycliffe Gordon's formative years, his pivotal experiences playing with Wynton Marsalis, and his successful solo career.

Key Takeaways

• Early Musical Roots: Wycliffe Gordon grew up in rural Georgia, in towns like Westboro and Augusta. His musical exposure at home was classical piano music (Beethoven, Mozart, Schuman, Schubert) played on a reel-to-reel recorder by his father, who studied classical music but performed in churches. Gordon's "musical syntax" is rooted in the music of the church.
• Introduction to Instruments: Although his first calling was drums, which his parents forbade, Gordon was introduced to the trombone in the seventh grade (age 12). His introduction to jazz came around age 13 or 14 from a five-record compilation set called an "anthology of jazz, 10 sides.” He was captivated by the music of Louis Armstrong, particularly the tune "Keyhole Blues.”
• High School Experience: Gordon participated in the McDonald's All-American High School band in the summer of 1984, during his senior year. This experience provided many "firsts," including his first time on an airplane and his first trip to New York. His future wife was also a member of this band.
• Work with Wynton Marsalis: Gordon was the seventh member to join Wynton Marsalis’s Septet. He was later part of the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra (JLCO).
• The Wynton Connection: Wycliffe first met Marsalis during a workshop at Florida A&M, where he impressed Marsalis by creating a spontaneous riff in the call-and-response tradition of the church. Although he was initially sent home after a trial gig for not being ready, he returned after dedicated practice. His first recording with Marsalis was Crescent City Christmas Card in 1989.
• Solo Career and Education: Gordon decided to leave Wynton's band (around 2000) to pursue his own interests, including taking a teaching position at Michigan State. He later started his own record company because a Blue Note executive told him that the "trombone just doesn't sell.”
• Multi-Instrumentalism: Gordon plays all trombones (tenor, bass, alto) and the slide trumpet, noting that the one he likes most is the one he is playing at the time. Sean Jones highlighted that Gordon is also an "amazing trumpet player," citing his tribute album, Hello Pops.
• Education Philosophy: Wycliffe stresses the importance of accountability in his students and the necessity of creating material that makes practicing interesting, especially given the challenges young people face with attention and critical thinking skills. Sean Jones shared a moment during the National Youth Orchestra of Jazz (NYO) program where allowing students to be vulnerable and emotionally expressive created a lasting tradition of connection.

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruisers Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mner. This week's episode features yet another interview from the recent journey of jazz cruise. Shawn Jones talked with fellow brassman Wliffe Gordon about his storyried life in music. The two share a common background growing up in the church and Wliffe talked about his earliest experiences playing music in his hometowns of Wesboro and Augusta, Georgia. And he explained how his introduction to jazz came from hearing a compilation of jazz greats. Shawn asked him about his experience playing in the McDonald's High School All-Star band. And Wliffe also talked about his time with Winton Marcel. from both the Sept and the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra. Sean then turned to the audience for their questions for Wliffe. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation and the give and take with the audience.

Sean Jones: everyone. It is great to see you all here. Yeah, we hope you've had a wonderful morning. Everybody hydrated? All right, good. There are several ways to do that. And dehydrate. But we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about and talk with one of the greatest trombonist in human history. And that is the great YF Gordon.

Wycliffe Gordon: Hello everybody. I say good morning. It's still morning for us jazz musicians, but technically it's afternoon. So good afternoon to everybody. Thank you all for being here.

Sean Jones: Yeah. Con It's great to be here with you. I'm going to ask a few questions uh to uh brother Wcliffe and these are just some questions that I've been curious about. We've known each other for a while and I just want to ask I want to Larry King you a little bit if you will. Is that all right? And then I'll open the floor up for questions and Jim is somewhere around here who will be uh sending the mic around. But the first question I have is um It's about your upbringing. I know that we have similar upbringings. Actually, a little fun fact that you all may or may not know. We were born on the same day around the same time, 10 years apart.

Wycliffe Gordon: Who's twin by 10?

Sean Jones: He's older. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Age-wise, chronologically, I am. But, you know, terms of wisdom, he's a lot older than.

Wycliffe Gordon: I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

Sean Jones: But, you know, we we both share roots in the gospel tradition. In fact, we're both we both have uh Georgia roots. My family is from Way Cross, which is a little bit further south, but I didn't grow up there. You grew up in Georgia. What was it like growing up? And and did you bring the instrument to church and play the instrument much in church or did you play a lot of organ and piano and sing? And was it a mix of it all?

Wycliffe Gordon: Uh, well, I definitely didn't sing. Um, But um so a little bit about my musical um introduction. My father played and studied classical music but his practical application his opportunity to perform he played in churches. So the way cross where his roots are mine and both of them are very country. And when I say country I'm not talking about land mass as it pertains to it's it's a way of life and a way of being. Matter of fact when I was my first um professional gig, grill gig, playing with Winter Marcales. They used to call me country and I don't know if they meant that. I think they meant it as a compliment. Um anyway, um but very rural. So, we we grew up in the country on a dirt road. And without getting into all of those details, my musical um experience first came from my dad had an upright uh grand piano, which I still have. We He left us on on this side in 1997, but he had a realtoreal recorder on top of that that played classical piano music. Everything from Beethoven, Mozart, Schuman, Schubert, you know, those kinds of things. And he wired put speakers in in the bedrooms and in all the rooms in the house. So that's what we heard at home other than when you turn the radio and you would hear like country music. But that was my introduction um to music. Um hearing music live was in church. where they uh my dad played piano in organ and uh there wasn't many musicians in our hometown. So he played for three or four different churches. Every fifth Sunday he was at some church, his main church, Springfield um Baptist Church. But anyway, that's what I heard and that was my introduction to music. That was the sound that um that has formulated me in the way that I hear music. I don't care whether I'm studying classical, jazz, But the um the the the not not the style but just the syntax in music if you will with with which I hear music. It comes out of the church. So um you know this and you know brother Jones asked me did I sing in the choir? No. The last thing I wanted to do was to sing in the um choir. But when when we moved from Wesboro to Augusta we joined the church and a friend of mine hadn't started playing the horn yet but had a bass. And you know, my dad tried to get us to take piano lessons when we were younger because he gave piano lessons. But it was hard in the country when you your friends are outside playing, you going doing this and then you hear that boys outside say, "Hey, throw the ball." Like, "Daddy, I don't want to be in here." And um so he didn't make us take lessons, but my mom had the um you know, made it where we could take lessons later. So at age 11, I did take piano. Age 12, Um my brother got his first trombone, went to junior high school, and you could take up to three electives. One had to be um PE. It was required by the American Council on Physical Fitness and Sports back then. Then you could take other classes like wood shop, home economics. You know, we said, I mean, we didn't want to be in home economics. We we said that's a girl's class. You know, little boys thinking that, but little did we know that's actually a good thing. But at that age, beach. We didn't care. So he got in band, came home with a trombone one day as band director said, "All boys want to play trumpets or saxopones or drums." Nobody really wants to play the trombone. We don't we don't really pick that. I guess it kind of, you know, chooses us. because it's hard to do. So anyway, I begged my parents until they um got one and this was my introduction to the instrument. It just kind of fast forward um Once I learned uh start practicing and learning to play then I would play in church but it was not where that was not where I kind of lived. We lived in the band room. We had marching band concert band and um called it stage band back then but that was my introduction and after the second year playing tremone. I told my mom I don't I don't want to take piano lessons anymore because my sister Karen took piano. We could play duets. We played recital together. But being in the band was like this, a room full of people and, you know, clarinets and trumpets and, you know, trombones and French horns and and so I just kind of fell in love with that and um shortly after I was 13, 14, um I had a great aunt to pass away and amongst the things that were bequeathed to our family was a five record collection set of jazz. That was my introduction to jazz. It was um I think it may have been Columbia or CBS I'm not sure, but it was called an anthology of jazz, 10 sides, uh, starting from early slave chants through the modern jazz of that period. And for me, that meant I remember Sunonny Rollins quartet, Sunonny Moon for Two, Count Basy, Big Band, you know, one bass hit or two bass hit. But of all the music that I that was in that compilation that Lewis Armstrong kind of hit me, it was a tune they played called Keyhole Blues. And And um we had popular music during our time, but being in the band, I love to listen to music that sound like the instruments we played. And I kind of fell in love with that, the music of New Orleans. And that was my introduction to jazz. And even though we would play in um um church, um yeah, a little quick story about our our church upbringing. When you grow up in church, church is just church. And if you only go to one church, that's the church, you know. So you said, We would we play in church? Nah, not that often, but sometimes after a certain level of um development, we may get hired to play in church services at other churches. So, and this was good for me cuz I played in this Episcopal church, I think it was. And the service I think started at um like 10, maybe 10:30. All I remember is we were playing cuz at my church, we ain't going home no time soon. um

Sean Jones: same came here.

Wycliffe Gordon: and you know the devotional service they still doing that at 12:00 and church started at 11:00 uh you know preacher hang so we're playing they had a handbell choir like oh this is nice we sitting up in the thing and then you know before I knew it people was they stood up and they were leaving I said man I never been in church where they took a break I said that's that's what I thought they were doing they were done I was like said mama I want to go to this church I mean, you know, I I was a teenager. I couldn't switch churches. I was like, you know, and it wasn't anything racist. But to me, my experience is like black church, you know, white church, and there's no no black and white, but just as a kid, what I saw and I'm like, wow. So, and then, you know, as I got on the road, um, but it was the music of the church, that kind of music we did yesterday that kept me grounded the whole time I was on the road throughout. you know my career on the bus um with the you know septet Wes Anderson would be on the bus smoking a cigarette drinking coffee listening to blue note B about 6:00 in the morning but yeah I'm like man I go to the back of the bus I put on the Florida man choir or the Georgia mass choir so in the back in the back of the bus in our lounge it would always be um church and not that I didn't like jazz but the music of the that's what was where what I was grounded in and that's what kind of you know kept me grounded and focusing even though you didn't ask me that. You brought up church though so anyway.

Sean Jones: Oh that's great. And you know um so when you started playing when you were younger did you get introduced to it in public school like fifth grade, sixth grade?

Wycliffe Gordon: Um trombone. Seventh grade. Yeah. Um what happened was in first grade um you know we heard the marching band at my um Queensboro so country we had one elementary school, one junior high school, one high school and one private school. So when we moved to Augusta, I mean you know again when if that is your what you're exposed to, that's what you know. And um they had a an army band that come to our school to perform for the kids. I was like man the first time I heard a big band I don't know what they were playing in the mood or something and they demonstrated instruments. Saxophone cool trombone cool trumpet. I remember First time I heard a trumpet live. I said, "Okay, that's the sound from my church teachings." I said, "That's the sound or the instrument that blew down Walter Jericho."

Sean Jones: That's right. Don't forget.

Wycliffe Gordon: Okay. Yeah. Cool. And I think Sean helped blow it down. But anyway, um and then had a piano, but I heard piano all my life. Then the bass he was playing electric bass like I was like, "Oh man, I like that." And then the drummer started playing. and like I was like, "That's it. That's my calling." And I went home and told my parents, I said, "I want a drum set." They were like, "Absolutely not." She was she was talking to me, but she she let it be known. She said, "Y'all make enough noise around this house as it is. We ain't we not getting any." So anyway, it was um you know, 12 12 uh 13 I was introduced to band music and then you know, jazz. I'm not sure if I answered your question.

Sean Jones: No, that's a that's a great answer because I wanted to talk a little bit about the uh McDonald's uh Dream Band and your experiences in high school. It seems like education also played an important role in those opportunities. Can you just talk about that influence on your time on you at the time and Yeah. who some of the people that you met in some of those bands?

Wycliffe Gordon: Sure. This is high school, by the way. Um yeah, so called the McDonald's All-American High School band. I can't talk about it without talking about my band director, Mr. Butler Riches. So, he used to tell me when I signed up for the all county band, the district band, all state band, he would always say, "Cliff, you can do it, Cliff." So, he was just talking to you about whatever I would audition for. So, all right, Hamer. He he would just say, "You can do it, Cliff." And I don't know if he knew that he gave me the um the ability to think that I couldn't do anything. So sometimes when I was working on something on a trombone or me and my friends are listening, you know, something like circular breathing or something like, you know, something is difficult or that we didn't understand at that um juncture in our musical growth. They said, "Man, you can't do that on trombone." I said, "You can't do it on trombone." So I practiced and practiced. I said, "You can't do this." So Mr. But my high school band director, I I have to credit him with that because it was something that I didn't think about. He didn't put it in writing. He was just everything. He just say, "You can do it, Cliff." And and and that is um that was something that was um you know, very important uh for me to hear and maybe it's just in the back of my mind. What was your question?

Sean Jones: No, just the influence of the some of the people you met in the McDonald's Dreamland band and but that's very important because that's that's something that we share. We actually and weirdly He lives parallel parallel lives. We'll get to that a little bit. But the importance of teachers is something I like to uh focus on at times. I mean, a lot of us that are on this cruise, we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have very influential teachers that took time with us early on in life. So, give it up for the teachers, y'all.

Wycliffe Gordon: Amen.

Sean Jones: Tell us about that band. I know there were some very special people in that band with you as well.

Wycliffe Gordon: Well, yeah. Yeah. That was for me, the McDonald's All-American High School band. You all know about the, you know, basketball team and all of that. And they did that for years. And five or six years after I um participated, which was um the summer 19 um 84, my my senior year, you can only audition. And they choose uh two students from each state, but they have to put a band together. So there were 12 trombones um nine tener trombones and three bass trombones. I was tener trombone number nine. which meant I was the I had a good audition. I made the band, but I was at the bottom of the and when I when I heard those guys play, there were two guys from Georgia that year, me and a friend of mine named Stan Wilkerson, and then two guys from New York, um Bob Leon and and and Todd Larry. And they had these recordings I I never heard cuz all I had was that one five record collection set out of jazz and I just played that thing over and over and over. But they had music that they exposed me to and um there were, you know, guys in the band, um, you know, like Kenny Ram, some of those guys are they're playing, he plays with Lincoln Center, um, jazz or some some of the guys went on to play with, um, major orchestras and I remember our first, we were the first band to tour and our first stop was somewhere in Philadelphia and Maynard Ferguson was uh, it was a concert with him. So, we had our Maynard Ferguson and the band, the lead trumpet, and it was just it was great for us to get to do that. And the there were these ex there were these experiences you know my wife and I talk about because we were both in that band. She was one of the two from Kentucky. She played trumpet classical um studied classical trumpet and then after four years in college decided she didn't want to do that anymore. So she went into management business and all of that. But in that band I that was a I don't want to say it was a wakeup call. It was um it was something I had a chance to see something. I was around great musicians all in high school. I'm like, man, dang the, you know, these guys can play. And it was just something else that made me want to push, to practice, to get better. But, um, on that tour, we started in Philadelphia. We wound up down in Georgia again, having only been in Georgia. And and and, uh, so we get down to Georgia, and they took care of us. I mean, it was beautiful. They they took the the young people and you had rules and regulations you had to follow. You can't do certain things. You're going to get sent home. And I don't think we had anybody to get sent home that year. But now we're down at Georgia in Savannah. Well, um I was only in it one. You can only do it one time. And um we were in um Savannah and we're at breakfast and we had like eggs and grits and you know what I grew up on. So some of the guys from Arizona and from New your that was like uh

Sean Jones: where's these?

Wycliffe Gordon: said what what are these um that they're grits? you know what are grits? I was like what do you mean man they they grits who don't who doesn't know what grits are? well apparently you know folks had had home fries and whatnot said well how you eat them? I said put them in your mouth. yeah you put them in your mouth you want you put a little butter on them maybe some salt and pepper some people put sugar on them but again it was no or not. I mean, I didn't I tried it one time, but the thing is it was it was it was a world of new experiences for me. And when I was in high school, my world just started to um open up of just see the possibilities um in music and then it just kept growing from there. And you know, and um I was like, man, it was one of the greatest musical experiences that a high schooler could have. And um hi, you know, to be in a to be in a band where everybody is as good were much better.

Wycliffe Gordon: And I'm just like. I was like it was I was like a sponge. I was like man cats played they didn't have CDs back then but played cassettes. I was like man you could that's a trombone player. Anyway so got a chance to meet a lot of people. We did the Jerry Lewis teleathon. That was big you know it was humongous because we flew out to Las Vegas and do that and it's the first time was on television. There was a lot of firsts. And that band is the first time I was on an airplane. The first time I went to New York. and um you know um you know for most of us except those of course that lived in New York. So um but it it was it was a wonderful experience and it just showed me I was like man I thought I thought I loved this. I said I really loved it. And out of the band they well it was a band which was 105 two um students each from the United States in Puerto Rico and Guam and then they He would switch islands between St. Thomas and uh another one of the Virgin Islands in my year. Dion Parson's another good friend of mine of ours. He was in the band. He used to be a trombone player, but he played bass drum and the um McDonald's band and coming from St. Thomas. We were in New York getting ready for the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade and he didn't have any winter clothes because you don't need winter clothes in St. Thomas. But the people in the McDonald's and they took such good care of us. They when they they bought him a coat, they got, you know, they they took care of him. And it was the first time I got to see um what it was like to be treated. I would I wouldn't say like royalty, but for a kid that's, you know, 8, 17, 18 years old, I'm like this was I mean, this was great. We got off the plane, they knew our names, where we were from. I was like, "Oh, man." It would it was just a great experience. So,

Sean Jones: it's awesome. Yes. Thanks, Now, I'm going to ask just a couple more questions because I'd love to open the floor up for your questions. But, um, one of the things that's always intrigued me about you is that you are one of the most soughtafter side persons, that means playing in other people's bands, and also a leader. And you've done both of them at the same time for a a pretty significant amount of your career. We all know his work with Went Marcellis both in the Sept and the Big Band, but at the same time, you recorded several solo albums on several different labels. How difficult was it for you to maintain that balance? And at some point, did you have to make a decision to go on your own or to just be in somebody else's band?

Wycliffe Gordon: Maintain a balance. I'm still trying to figure that one out. But no, that's that's that's um very um that's a very good question. Playing in that band was great. Particularly the septet. It was a septet at first. And you know, it was I was the seventh member to join. So I was kind of at the bottom of the totem pole, which means I had to learn new music, get my playing together. So because they I mean they were playing and I said, "Man, I don't know if I I should be out here. I said, I'm going to have to get some stuff together. But we always talked about the music. That's one thing I miss about that band that I rarely see in any other band situation that I've been in. After the gig, we get on the bus. We probably going to make a sandwich or something. We going to talk about the gig like, man, what was that that you did on this tune? It was great. And then in 1995 when he disbanded and started the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra and all of us that were in his band, we had first dibs. It was no formal audition or anything. anything because we would play music from every period in jazz from New Orleans through you know um burnout we didn't play at my guard so much but do we we weren't opposed to playing um you know anything so um but after years being in the band you heard brother Jones say I did a lot of recordings I think if I if id stayed in the band I probably would not have it came a time where I love being in the band. And I love all the cats, but I was like, man, the season is is uh decided by, you know, the administration. It could be the artist director. It could be wenton, but the season and then most of the time it would be nice, but I had other things I I wanted to do. And you know, and then a situation came where I said, you know what? Um, my first teaching job was at Michigan State, and I'd gone there just to do master classes and workshops. All things I kind of developed um and being in Winton's band cuz he would let me go with him. Matter of fact, matter of fact, sometimes people call and he to do interviews and he didn't want to do them, but we had been around him enough. He said, "Co, you do this interview for me?" I said, "Yeah, I'll do the interview for you." So, they don't know that they're not talking and went, but you know, we kind of knew where he was coming from. It was great. But then at some on the, you know, the pros and the cons, one of the cons would be everybody thought that we would think like winter and it's like yeah they used to some people call us winter nights. I'm like I play with Winston. I said but I have my own um brain now. Now if you're going to debate him I will say this get prepared because he going he he's going to come with his um a I saw I I saw something go down. I think great scholar James Lincoln called you had written a book on jazz and they had scheduled a debate. Um there was no jazz in Lincoln Center at that time but it in one of the buildings um in that complex and all of the KA scholars came to see him put a whooping you know spank wenton in this intellectual debate and I could only for an hour and a half I can only stay for 45 minutes because I had to go somewhere else and I I I witnessed something I always knew because he he's very competitive.

Wycliffe Gordon: yeah he's very competitive and um what Ka thought it was going to be was nothing like that. Went and had read the book. He he he pointed out facts that were incorrect and you know and they were talking about you know everything that we still dealing with from time to time and why there no women in Lincoln jazz orchestra and why is there only black musicians. I mean went was prepared for every question that came his way with facts and you know statements. So anyway playing with him was good but at the same time we'll be oh teas and band. I'd be on another gig somewhere and somebody would say, "Man, the comp the um Carnegie Hall Jazz Orchestra under um John Fattis, man." Yeah, I like that much better than Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra. So, I'm sitting in the room with people I'm not around all the time that you white. I said, "Man, you can express your opinion. I I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm not going to sit here and argue, debate with you about what you like, the flavor ice cream you like in your mouth. It's what you like in your mouth. and and what you want in your ears is the same thing. I said, you know, it it's cool. And you know, so I wanted to I wanted to make records. I wanted to and that was the opportunity for me. So when I left, people not so much, but for 15 or 20 years, people would come to me um it was a great compliment, but they would say, "Oh, and I saw you with the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra and love your playing." I said, Oh, okay. Well, I I hadn't played in there for about 14 15 years. But then the musicians would come to me and say, you know, why'd you leave? You went cool. I said, yeah, I'm cool. I said, I wanted to do other things. And I remember talking to Winton about it. I I was at the Village Vanguard and he came down to see me. It was February of 19 um 95 or 90. Yeah. No, 2000. And I said, I want to talk to you. We went outside upstairs years. I say, "Hey, man. I'm I'm I'm going to I'm going to um leave the band. I'm going to take this teaching position." Did the teaching position pay more? No. Um was it a good thing? Yes. I had benefits. I had a brand new, you know, son. Um and I was like, maybe I'm going to move my family up to uh Michigan and I'm just going to do some things a little differently. And when I talked with him, he said, "Oh yeah, Con, that's a nickname. That's story for another time." He said, "Uh, I understand you got I do. So the opening of the season in 2000, I had a commission to write for a film score um Body and Soul Oscar Mey by Oscar Mey show Paul Robersonson's debut as an actor on the film. We did that September 27th, 2000. We were supposed to fly to Germany that next day um and we were going to do it in Germany. I was going to come back home, but the band was leaving on the night I had a concert at Carnegie Hall and the executive director said, "Well, you got to be on the plane with us." I said, "Well, no, no, I don't." Um I said I said I'll get there. Now it was tricky because I had to take a flight after midnight and I said man but I it was my opportunity to do something other than that. It was with Simon Rattle and I think Bobby Watson was another guest and I wanted to do things. So anyway just to close the story out. So for the first three years um people would say I got a manager trying to you know get some gigs like on the weekends and whatnot. They say oh we love Wagliff but we'll see him with Winston like I'm not with them anymore.

Wycliffe Gordon: And you know, for a long time, again, um pros and cons, it was a good thing. And then eventually people knew that I was, you know, available. So I started playing at colleges and universities. And then I wanted to record. I was like, I had music, you know, that I heard. And then record companies would approach me. One in particular I remember was Bluenote. Bruce Lunal was the um exe. He he was the head of Bluenote at that time. And made an appointment to go see him and he said, "What would you like to do, White Cliff?" I said, "Well, I like to record a record." Now, a lot of times you see concept records and my concept was I like classical, um, gospel and jazz. I mean, I like to play funk, too. I'm like, well, I like to do all of those things on one record. I just to say here, you know, you see introducing Shawn Jones, introducing, you know, Bobby Watson. I was introducing myself. I wanted to do what it was that Yeah. that that I liked.

Wycliffe Gordon: And what he told me uh was something I never forget. He said, "Well, you know, why that's good, but trombone just doesn't sell." Like, I said, "Trombone doesn't sell."

Sean Jones: Oh, nice.

Wycliffe Gordon: I I I I remember down south in the country where they had this thing called pet rocks and people were buying those. I'm like, why why the hell would people spend money on a rock? We live not too far from the railroad tracks. We got rocks. I said, "Man, anyway, and that's that's that was just funny to me." But those are kind of things that I dealt with and when you're dealing with record companies and whatnot and another record company tried to tie me down. We want you to be exclusive with us. I was recording for no hire and which was in Germany and then crisscross which was in, you know, Holland, but they wanted to record and I just got to a point where I said they'll record like once a year, but I started writing in here music and I said, "Well, they can't really work it out. So, I started my own record company." So, anyway, that's it.

Sean Jones: That's amazing. And, uh, before we open the floor for questions, I do want to say that one of the things I love about you, Big Bro, is that there are no barriers to your playing. You do it all. We were we a couple years ago, we were in Battle Creek, Michigan, and who do I see over there on the other side of the stage was Y Clef Gordon. We were doing an all classical brass band for like four days. And these when I say this is this is not like a novice band. These are the greatest classical music brass musicians in the world all convening together in Michigan. And it was great to see my big bro there. It's just an example of the possibilities that we can do. But uh Jim is around and we have some and Oh yes.

Sean Jones: Wonderful. Yeah. Oh, we got dual support. All right. Thank you. So uh we're going to take some questions real quick. Um, so wave your raise your hand if you have a question for W Cleff Gordon.

Wycliffe Gordon: or a comment.

Sean Jones: or a comment. And please don't grab the mic. We want to keep COVID to ourselves. Or off the ship, period. All right. Any questions?

Wycliffe Gordon: Any questions?

Sean Jones: Anyone? Right here. Gentleman in the hat. She's coming with a microphone. Oh no. My voice. I'm contempor course we carry and I'll repeat the question.

Audience Member 1: We're recording. We're recording. Um, thank you guys for choosing the profession to go in. Why Cliff? Some years ago when Winon came to your school to do a workshop and he gave you he gave you a tip. Will you share with us the tip that he gave you? And I think the following year he called you and asked you if you wanted to record with him.

Wycliffe Gordon: Yeah. paraphrasing. That's pretty good. That's pretty close. Uh so he Yeah. Um maybe I told you the uh story, but I'll share quickly that he um came during my sophomore year at Florida&M and Scotty Barnhart, who's now the music director for the Count Basic Orchestra, was in school with me, but he was at FAM um a few years before I got there. He came in 82. I was in 85. And you know, he was a what we call super student. And um he uh said the Winton's coming. I'm like, "Okay, I heard a win." But this at this time, I was deep in the listening to Lewis Armstrong and New Orleans Jazz. So anyway, he he comes to the school and it's the first time everybody showed up for rehearsal, which what wasn't good. And he said, "Um, yeah, I want he want to give us a test." He would talk about like, you know, with the Count Basic Orchestra, sometimes they'll just start playing a blues. Somebody in section come up with a riff or in each section comes up with a riff and you know, now they have another tune. You take one:00 jump um things like that. There's a lot of lot of bases music is riff based. So he gave us a test. He said well rhythm section play a blues and I want somebody on each section to come up with a riff. Well for me that was easy having gone to church listening the call and response between the leader of the choir and the choir singing. You know I that was again in my ear even if it was the responsive reading between the pastor and the congregation. So it was like bing and I was just like doo just some some something some something simple that I can give to the trombone players. They got that before the first course ended. Then I started harmonizing. Herb Harris was kind of the saxophone section leader or the one most astute in playing jazz even though he played tenor. They were struggling the trumpets kind of they didn't I mean this for me that that's where my church um experience just kind of kicked in. Anyway, after about the third or fourth chorus he cut the band off and I re leaned down to pick a pencil or something up off the floor and I sat back up and all the trombone players were pointing at me and went to that as said so who came up with that riff? He said he just kind of looked at me I'm going to talk to you later and I didn't really think anything of it and then of course uh later I did speak to him and he did a he came to our college all the kids wanted to see a concert Freddy Jackson the popular music and yeah HBCU doing the butt was popular all all of that that stuff. We listen to that. But the kids wanted to get that cultures like Went Marcales won uh he's won Grammys in classical and jazz music, but the school didn't want to pay for it. They did pay for Freddy Jackson to do a concert. So, he just did a lecture in in a hall at our school. It was packed. And then once he left, uh Scotty called me. He was laughing one day. He said, "Man, went and asked about you." He said, "Uh, who that who that trombone player cat," uh, he said, "What's that?" Oh, he said, "Oh, you talking about White Cliff?" And Winton said, "Well, what the hell kind of name is White Cliff?" And and when Scotty told me that, I said, "Well, what the hell kind of name is Winon?" I mean, I never heard anybody named Winon before, but again, growing up in the country, exposure, exposure, exposure. And so, and and that's what it was. So, later on, uh Marcus Roberts, who played piano with him, lived in Tallahassee, and um He called me one night and on my job I was working Pizza Hut and I would close because when you're in college and don't have any money, you work at restaurants and you close them so you can bring food home.

Wycliffe Gordon: And Marcus called me one night and he he wow you know it's one thing when I was you know on the floor u you know cleaning but then he um then when they put me in the kitchen I was like hallelujah. So so marker anyway let me let me cut the story. Marcus said he called. I said, "Hey, yeah, what's up?" I thought it was one of my frat brothers calling and get some free food. I said, "Oh, hey, Mr. Roberts. How you doing?" He said, "You been shared?" And I was like, "Nah, not not really." He said, "Wenton wants you to come to um play a gig in Texas in two weeks." I was like, "Oh, man. You" And at that time, I was playing electric bass in the funk band, dancing, having a good time doing the butt. And the H.B.CU, that song was real popular. So, anyway, Um, so I went to Texas, uh, Caravan of Dreams and, um, they were working on something. He was working on something for a new record. He had he had me in mind to play on. I wasn't ready, though. So, I got sent back home. But before I did, when they started playing that night in the club, I was like, uh, I I was completely flabbergasted. I had not heard other on recording Young Cats playing at jazz at that level. I was like, And if I wasn't so far from Tallahassee, I walk out this back door and go back home. But I didn't. But between he and Marcus, they gave me three or four sheets on both sides, two columns on each side. When you get a chance, buy this record. Check out this record. And then, you know, I started to do that. Then he called me back to play Blues Alley later on that year. I wasn't killing playing, but I started practicing. He said, and then he invited me to play on this CD called Crescent City Christmas card.

Wycliffe Gordon: And I said,

Sean Jones: "Great album,

Wycliffe Gordon: cool." And um at the end of that session, that was 1989. He said, "Um, what are you doing during the summer?" I said, "Well, my scholarship doesn't cover summer school, so I just normally go home and do construction work or something to make money to pay for rent and stuff like that." He said, "Well, well, you give me a call." On my birthday, May 29, 19 um 1989, I called him. He said, "Well," I said, "I'm out of school. He said, "Give my manager a call." Manager called him and my first gig was um June 6 in um Charleston, South Carolina, the Spato Festival. Three or four days later, we're down in Aruba. I didn't have a passport. I said, "You're going to have to get you a passport." I said, "Yeah, eventually I did, but Eric Reed was filling in for Marcus Roberts at that time and went and said, "Let's go over here and mess with Reed." And then and Eric wasn't happy with the school that he was in. He said, um when what school should I go to? And he he said uh went and said um I I went to college for one year talked to W Cliff. I said I don't know what school you should go to, but I'm about to leave the one I'm I'm at. And that's not to say anything negative about I just my musical experience wasn't what I thought it could be. And his father just started teaching at UNO. So I was thinking about transferring schools. And it was at that time he said, "Um, well, do you want to stay out here for a little while and play?" And I thought about it for all of about 10 seconds. I said I said yeah. So began my career playing at that level which led to teaching everything in education uh composing arranging the exposure then became it was it was um you know it it was great and um I thought about man I I I I didn't finish I didn't finish school my band director not going to be and then yeah um I'm like oh what my mom I said you know what The school is on bricks and mortar ain't going nowhere.

Wycliffe Gordon: So I can come back and I can come back and do that. And that that's that's that's how that happened.

Sean Jones: Yes. Yes. That got another question back here. Yeah.

Audience Member 2: First all praise to the most high. I want to thank both of you guys for being here. I'm learning a lot. And I never knew I love the trombone. It's a wonderful instrument, but I didn't know that there were uh voices to it like the saxophone. So if You can explain the voices uh the soprano and and bass. Which one do you play and which one do you like the most?

Wycliffe Gordon: What which what trombone do I play?

Audience Member 2: Trombone? Yes, sir.

Wycliffe Gordon: I play all of them.

Audience Member 2: Okay.

Wycliffe Gordon: One that I like the most is the one I'm playing at that time.

Audience Member 2: What voice is it though? I mean,

Wycliffe Gordon: well, the one the one you see me on stage with most of the time, that's my tenor trombone, but I have a bass trombone f attachment for that's not that's the trombone I work with all the time. That little one soprano Oh, I just saw that in a store, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, and I said, "Well, I have an alto trombone, but I don't ever really have a use for playing that unless I'm playing classical music." But, and it's a slide trumpet. And I learned about a little bit about the history of that, which was 250 close to 300 years ago in classical music that the trumpet blades were playing. And I said, "Oh, let me get one." And I started, you know, messing around with it. But, um, the one I'm most familiar with is the one that I've spent the most time with, and that's my tenor trombone. But, You know to me an instrument is an instrument and I try to tell my students that from time all the time once you learn the mechanics of an instrument then it's time to make music. So whether that's on bass trombone tenor trombone one more question okay or tuber it doesn't matter but yeah. sorry I ain't really answer.

Sean Jones: I think we got time for one more but you know before we do that I have to say brother Wcliffe is also an amazing trumpet player if you don't know that check out his records uh was a tribute to Pops, right?

Wycliffe Gordon: Yeah. Hello Pops. Hello Pops. Excuse me. Hello Pops.

Wycliffe Gordon: Brian Steberg said playing on that record. She I don't She chose not to play any solos. And when I did the record, I was like, man, should I call a uh trumpet player? And I mean, I knew knew the stuff and I just said, but if I do that, then the trumpet player is going to be the center. I mean, it's Lewis Armstrong. And you know, my wife was like, well, what do you I said, you know, I'm I'm going to play trumpet. So yeah, we we have a couple of those CDs here. Hello Pops is is one of the ones that's dearest to my heart because um Lewis Armstrong, even though I ain't going to start talking about him, but even though folks didn't like him, when he stood up when you know when you say things uh that's good for everybody and right sometimes you get ostracized and it really hurt him because you know people he was standing up for like you know what do you what do you know you musician. I'm like, "Hey, right is right, wrong is wrong. Good is good and not good, it's just not good." And he was always, he said, you know, long as he had some good weed. Yeah. No, for all all of his life. So, if you don't don't know a little fun fact about Lewis Armstrong, that was just, you know, his his thing. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but he was cool and he wore Star David around his um neck throughout his career under his shirt because the first family that bought him a trumpet was a Jewish family, Russian immigrant Jewish family, the Carnoskis. And he said he never forgot that they fed him because he grew up so poor, you know, he didn't have money to eat. They let him work for them and um and they took care of him. So he he wore the Jewish star David around his neck the whole I didn't find that out till later. Anyway, sorry for that long answer.

Sean Jones: Got time for one more. All right.

Audience Member 3: Hello, Mr. Gordon. Hi. As a retired educator, What I would like to know is how do you encourage your students to develop fundamentals as well as have individuality?

Sean Jones: Great.

Wycliffe Gordon: Well, that's that's that's a good question. I'm just going to give a short answer, but this might be one for my brother Sean. You you talking about one of the world's greatest educators, 10 years um younger than me, but I've seen him work with and talk with kids. He does this program called, you know, NYO and you know I'd be sitting there. I did it for the first couple of years. And he would just give nuggets of information, not to say you got to do this, you got to do that. Just something to think about because um nowadays it seems like it's difficult for our young people to pay attention.

Sean Jones: Pay attention. Yeah.

Wycliffe Gordon: And to develop critical thinking skills. And um so it's difficult. I say with my my students now, I mean even at the university level, something happened It was before CO but CO def definitely created um it just created um some things uh with our children socially and then in in term ter terms of being accountable and that's what I always want to tell my students be you know I want you to be account I want you to be accountable and I have to figure out ways I sit up get up just about every morning I'm like man how can I create something that will make it um interesting. So that these kids want to practice that they understand. I one of my students told me two weeks ago I said we start um well maybe it was three or four weeks ago but we started school and I said have you been practicing? He said no. I said well why not? He said I'm not good at it. I said um I said uh well you know I think I think when I was your age That's what that's why we practice so that we can get good at it. And so and and he said, "Well, you know, when I used to practice, I still didn't sound good." I said, "Well, you know, you've been a student of mine for two years." I said, "You got one more lesson, and if you come in here and tell me you didn't prepare the things that I've given you, then you're going to withdraw from my classroom. You you're going to go to another teacher." And true to form, he did that. So, I'm not teaching him now. And the thing is, I said, but he he said, "Can I come to you from time to time? I said, "Always, you can always come to me." I said, "I'm I'm I'm going to show you something, but what I'm not going to do is sit up here and wait, you know, spend time for another year where you knowingly, because you'll laugh." I'm not practicing because they got Tik Tok and he's um on the phone playing video games." I said, I'm not about to say his name, son, don't. I said, you know, play your play your video games. We all need recreation, but you're a music major and major is a is is is the operative word. You should spend a majority of your time working on this. You want to teach because what happens um mediocre students if they graduate and they become mediocre teachers and then the cycle just starts. And we we I' I've um seen this and it's hard for me um in our education system now when they tell us that you can't flunk students or they can't get lower than less than a C or an 80. So that is there's no there's there's no desire for them to say I don't really have to do anything. I'm going to pass whether I do anything or not. And I I hate to get on the negative beyond that but it's happening and if we don't talk about it and sometimes at our university they're afraid to and even with now we can't talk about deism. How are you going to talk how you going to have jazz studies and not talk about race anyway that has something else. I'm I'm going to turn I'm going to turn it over to um Sean because even though he's I'm 10 years his senior, he's somebody I really look up to in terms of being a leader and you know and that's what he is. He has his I I should be up here interviewing him. But um he's in education. He's the head of jazz studies and he's um at Peabody and he's been in education and at Berkeley and and he's doing the uh uh I I don't even know all of what he's doing, but I know whatever it is Neither do I.

Sean Jones: Whatever it is that he's doing, he does it with love and passion and it gets to those students. And I still see I'm still in, you know, touch with some of those students from the early NYO days. But Sean, he he can definitely tell you because, you know, I'm in education, but uh so is he. I I'll end by saying this. We had a wonderful moment with the NYOS program out of Carnegie Hall, National Youth Orchestra of Jazz, where we select uh about 22 of the of some of the most promising young people to go uh all expenses paid to a different continent every year. We've gone to China. We played China's Lincoln Center. It was the first jazz ever at China's link uh the version of their Lincoln Center in Beijing. Um we've played South America, South Africa. We we just recorded at the Market Theater, the famous Market Theater where uh It was basically a a part tide safe haven for artists. Long story short, we had this wonderful moment during the pandemic where these students were just kind of phoning it in, you know, and something just spoke to me and just stopped the band. And I just let them know that over the past year, 50 people that I knew died from CO.

Sean Jones: And I just allowed myself to be vulnerable in that moment. And I said, "You never know when this is your last time and we all as a faculty just made it very real and very personal and brother Whitecliffe decided to share a very personal story about something that he was going through at the time and we all circled. We got in a circle and when I tell you those people at Carnegie Hall thought we were crazy. They looking all around like what are they doing? What's going to happen? Is this a seance? And we all got in that circle held hands And I and I told them it start actually started a tradition that we've been doing since. I said, "Let's all grab hands and wherever you go and whoever you connect to, let's connect to and connect in this moment." And the tears began to flow out of those young people's faces because they needed an opportunity to just release. And so I think for me like the the biggest thing is that that is something that we can give them freely. And mo often times they don't know that that's what they need. Sometimes they just need to cry. Sometimes they just need to be the outlet and be invited to emotionally express themselves. And so we were able to do that thanks to your leadership in that moment and your vulnerability and that's something I look forward to continuously. Give it up for the great YF Gordon. Y'all, thank you'all very much. Thank and thank you Jim. And thank you, Irene. Is Irene still around? She took off. She She's all over the place. So, thank you all very much. Enjoy the rest of the afternoon. See you later.

Wycliffe Gordon: Thank you, bro.

Sean Jones: Thank you.

Lee Mergner: Well, I hope you enjoyed that talk. You can really feel the love and respect that Shawn and Wolf have for each other. The 2027 edition of Journey of Jazz will sail tw January 24th through the 31st, departing from Tampa and spending two days in the birthplace of Jazz New Orleans and then on to Progresso in the Caribbean. Although the announcement of the lineup is coming soon, I can say that Wloff will be aboard Journey of Jazz. You can sign up for updates at journeyofjazz.com. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song High Life on his album aphrodesia on Blueote. Thanks to Matt, the sound engineer in the rendevous for capturing this and other talks from the journey of jazz crews. And thanks to Jim and Irene who ran around the room getting questions from the audience. Don't forget to subscribe to Jazz Cruises Conversations, Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcast so you won't miss a single episode. And you can then listen to the back catalog. We have more than a hundred interviews in there from past sailings. Thanks for listening.