John Pizzarelli & Catherine Russell: Tales of Les Paul, Bucky & Fistfights

A Centennial Celebration of Jazz Stories In this milestone 100th episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations, recorded live on The Jazz Cruise '25, legendary guitarist and vocalist John Pizzarelli sits down with his longtime friend and collaborator, vocalist Catherine Russell. For the last few years, John and Catherine have been performing together in a project they call 'Billie and Blue Eyes,' spotlighting the music of Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra. John talked about coming up in the jazz and music world and hanging (and playing) with legends like Benny Goodman, Les Paul, Joe Venuti, Zoot Sims, Slam Stewart, Clark Terry, George Shearing, and of course, his father Bucky. Plus, John shared some stories about working with pop icons James Taylor and Paul McCartney.

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Key Takeaways

• The Family Business: John began his musical journey on the tenor banjo at age six before switching to the guitar at 12. He grew up in a house so full of music that if you wanted to sit on the couch, you had to move a guitar first.

• Trumpet Troubles: Before committing to the guitar, John played trumpet from fourth grade through his sophomore year of college. He admits "trumpet is hard," but his classical training on the instrument gave him an immediate "in" when he first met Wynton Marsalis.

• Pranks with Les Paul: Living only 15 minutes away from the Pizzarelli home, Les Paul was a frequent visitor who enjoyed playing tricks, such as de-tuning John’s guitar or pulling out his patch cord in the middle of a performance.

• The "Highlights in Jazz" Fistfight: John recounts his first New York City gig with his father, Bucky Pizzarelli, which featured Zoot Sims as a surprise guest. While the musicians were focused on learning "Ghost of a Chance" backstage, the promoter and a friend of Bucky’s broke into an actual fistfight—one that no one stopped because they were too busy rehearsing.

• Pop Collaborations: John shares the "pajama-intimate" details of co-producing James Taylor’s Grammy-winning standards album in a barn studio and recording "Paper Moon" with Paul McCartney at Capitol Records.

• The "Eyebrow" Method: John reveals the secret musical shorthand he shared with his father during their 12 years of performing as a duo: as soon as Bucky’s eyebrows went up, it was John's signal to take the solo

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

[Lee Mergner] (0:25 - 1:25)

Hi, welcome to the sixth season of the Jazz Cruises Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode is number 100, yes 100, in the series of talks from the sailings of our Jazz Cruises.

This conversation was recorded during the Jazz Cruise earlier this year, and it featured a conversation between two of our long-time performers and favorites, vocalist Catherine Russell and guitarist and vocalist John Pizzarelli, with Catherine taking on the interviewer role. For the last few years, John and Catherine have been performing together in a project they call Billy and Blue Eyes, spotlighting the music of Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra. John talks about coming up in the jazz and music world and hanging with legends like Benny Goodman, Les Paul, Joe Venuti, Zoot Zim, Slam Stewart, Clark Terry, George Shearing, and of course his father, Bucky.

Plus John shares some stories about working with pop icons James Taylor and Paul McCartney. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

[Catherine Russell] (1:29 - 2:39)

Good afternoon everybody. I hope you had a lovely and relaxing day. So far the water looked beautiful.

I was in the room relaxing. So, my honored guest today and my friend, I'm so happy to call you a friend, jazz guitarist and vocalist John Pizzarelli, yes, and you know I'm saying all of this, we all know this, but you know we have to say this for those that don't, has recorded over 20 solo albums, stop me if I get any of this wrong, over 20 solo albums, and has appeared on more than 40 albums by other artists, including James Taylor, Sir Paul McCartney, Rosemary Clooney, his amazing genius father, Bucky Pizzarelli, and his amazingly talented and beautiful wife, singer-actress Jessica Molaskey, and he started on guitar at six years old, is that right?

[John Pizzarelli] (2:39 - 5:22)

Tenor banjo at six and picked up the guitar at 12, for those of you scoring at home. Tenor banjo was the instrument that my father's uncles played, and when I was six they had my father's father's banjo, was a paramount banjo, beautiful banjo, and they sent me to Victor's House of Music in Ridgewood, New Jersey to study with Bobby Dominic, my father's uncle who had been on the road with Clyde McCoy and Bob Chester and other bands like that. He was in the band, he was the younger of the two brothers, there was Pete was the oldest and there was Bobby Dominic, and so you would do, of the 30 minutes in the cubicle at Victor's, you'd do 25 minutes on the notes in the book, clunk clunk clunk clunk clunk, and then with five minutes left he'd show you, still gets me, he'd show you the chords to Bye Bye Blues or something and you'd play a song, and I loved playing the song, so I'd fumble through the notes, but then the best part was Yes Sir That's My Baby, Bye Bye Blues, Bye Bye Blackbird, Alabama Bound, Sweet Sue, and so the best part was you'd get there and there'd be a little window and you'd look in and he'd wave, and he had a student before me, and actually the guy who was before me, about two or three years later, we were at home on a Saturday and this guy walked in with a seven string guitar to study with my father, and he sat down and he said, my father said play something, so he played a few things and he went stop, and he said play that chord, and he played this little chord on the guitar and he said you studied with Bobby Dominic, and he said yeah at Victor's House of Music, and I said that's the guy that was before me. Because I was going to ask you all that, you got to say yeah, see, it's very easy. But the thing was that was 66, both of them died in the same year in 72, and so I was 12, and then I didn't really, I was sort of floating around, but like in our house we had guitars on the couch, if you wanted to sit down you had to move the guitar, so then I took out an Elton John book and I used to play, the first song was Country Comfort, and I realized I could do it on the guitar, it's a great song, and so I would play along with the records and I found all the chords, I said oh it's the same thing, just two more strings, it was six strings, and I said oh there they are.

[Catherine Russell] (5:23 - 5:28)

So the tuning, I was going to get to this later, but the tuning, the seventh string is what?

[John Pizzarelli] (5:28 - 5:42)

It's a low A, and the regular guitar with a low A, and so when you just play the chords, you just skip over and you have a bass note, so like when I play Accompany You I use it more, than when I do with the Trio, I skip over it when I play with the Trio.

[Catherine Russell] (5:42 - 5:52)

So you're just skipping over the low E string? Yes. Yeah, but you make that sound really easy.

Well, I am a gifted artist.

[John Pizzarelli] (5:57 - 6:03)

It's called talent. Oh my goodness. I better be to dress like this.

[Catherine Russell] (6:07 - 6:08)

That's nice and summery, I like that.

[John Pizzarelli] (6:08 - 6:15)

I wait for this trip to bring all the stuff out in the middle of the year, you know, they get lonely in the closet.

[Catherine Russell] (6:15 - 6:17)

I know, because it's 23 degrees in New York City.

[John Pizzarelli] (6:17 - 6:18)

That's right.

[Catherine Russell] (6:18 - 6:20)

So you also play trumpet?

[John Pizzarelli] (6:21 - 6:58)

I did, yes, I played trumpet all the way from fourth grade, it was either going to be trumpet or clarinet because I liked Doc Severinsen or Benny Goodman, I figured I could lead a band either way, and I picked trumpet for some odd reason, and played all the way through sophomore year of college, and I realized it's hard. Trumpet is hard.

Trumpets are very hard. And I had a really good teacher at University of Tampa named Ron Byerly, who really made me like actually, that's when I actually started to practice the trumpet, you know, I mean, you take your lesson on a Tuesday, and then you wouldn't play it again till the following Tuesday when I was a kid.

[Catherine Russell] (6:58 - 6:58)

Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (6:59 - 7:13)

And this guy, when I did that the first week at college, the guy said, if you're gonna do that, you might as well just stay in your room. Don't come back. And I went, Oh, and he was only that tall.

And he was, he was the he was the best teacher. He made me love the trumpet.

[Catherine Russell] (7:14 - 7:14)

Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (7:14 - 7:37)

So every that's how I got a had a great conversation. The first time I met Wynton Marsalis, and I mentioned the Hindemith Sonata for trumpet and piano, and he swung his head around, like, you know that and I started to sing it to him. And he sang it back.

And he was like, Oh, because I gotta, I gotta do that again. I love that piece. And that was my in as opposed to you play really good.

[Catherine Russell] (7:37 - 7:38)

You're really good.

[John Pizzarelli] (7:38 - 7:42)

You're really nice. That's great. Oh, my God.

[Catherine Russell] (7:43 - 7:49)

And so in your teens, though, yeah, I read that, you know, you perform with Benny Goodman.

[John Pizzarelli] (7:49 - 8:48)

I did, I, we, I didn't, I met Benny Goodman, many times between 10 and 20. And I didn't play with him. I only played with him once at his house with my father and I went to see him.

And he was trying out reeds. And we brought the guitars in and he said, let's play Avalon. And we played Avalon in his living room.

But we did, my father and I opened for him. We did about six or seven concerts. It's the first time I went to Los Angeles.

It was like 1980. And we played at El Camino Community College. And we opened for Benny there.

So it was he, for some reason, he had us open the shows, did the Garden State Art Center. I actually stayed in the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles in 1980. And, and was, was amazing being around Benny Goodman.

I was like, wow. Well, of course he would ask you to open for him. Well, you know, Bucky and I, you know, it was fun.

We had a good time.

[Catherine Russell] (8:48 - 8:55)

I mean, that makes musical sense, right? I mean, you know, it's just swung. That's all. So Les Paul?

[John Pizzarelli] (8:55 - 12:50)

Les Paul was always at our house because he lived in Mahwah. So we got to play with him.

Well, I got to play with him a couple of times, but the, the best one was, I always tell the story of that. We were at the Hanover Trail Steakhouse and Bucky said, hey, Les is going to be at the place. Let's go over there and break him up.

He always liked to say that, break him up. You don't even know what it means, but I knew what it meant, you know? So we were in the wings and he was doing his whole act.

And, um, uh, he said, oh, there's Bucky and John Pizzarelli. And, you know, he, we had the guitars in the trunk. Anyway, he goes, go get the guitars.

And we got to play with him. And, and while I was playing, he detuned my guitar. Yeah.

He used to like to pull, if you were on the wrong side, he pulled the cord out. Oh, because people joked about that, but I didn't know that he, there's a YouTube clip of him playing with Jeff Beck and he pulls Jeff Beck's cord out in the middle. And Jeff Beck's looking at what are you doing?

And he's just like, eh, that's what I do. Wow. But you know, the, the, the best, uh, what was the one I liked the, um, I'll get, there's another Les Paul story.

Oh, I, you know, Les was literally 15 minutes away in Mahwah. And the best one was my father was working with Joe Venuti, a great violin, jazz violinist in New York city. So on Sunday, cause we had a nice house and my, my father said, does I'll pick you up or whatever, come out to the house.

Can you go for a swim? Well, my, my mother made food, blah, blah, blah, blah. And everybody was there.

And so my father, there were two things because there was a thunder and lightning storm and Joe swam in the pool during the thunder and lightning storm. So then he came down and he was eating food and he was hanging out at the house and he was going to play the violin. And a buddy of his was there, Spiegel, Wilcox, this, uh, uh, trombone player.

They were all in the, uh, Whiteman band together. And, uh, the phone rang in the middle, you know, of all the commotion. And my mother said, Buck, it's, uh, Les Paul.

So my father goes, yeah. And Les Paul saying to him, I hear Joe Venuti's in town. Where is he?

And Bucky says, he's on the couch. And Les Paul was there in five minutes with his guitar and they all played. I have Joe Venuti telling stories.

I have a cassette of it. You know, the best one was he went to a, he was somewhere in Ohio and he was playing a gig and on the break, a guy said, look, if you want to talk to anybody, like in a seance or something, I can find you a spy, you know? And so, you know, I said only cost you a hundred dollars.

So yeah, back then. So Joe's like, yeah, you know, and he goes, no, you really can't. So Joe says, okay.

So they go, he goes, they drive out in the middle of nowhere. There's a little shack, you know, when he says we get there and the guy says, you got the hundred dollars. He says, I got the hundred dollars.

He gives him a hundred dollars. He says, who do you want to talk to him? He says, I want to talk to my father.

He said he, and he said he was like a, you know, 98 or a hundred years old when he died or something like that. I'd like to talk to my father. Guy says, okay.

And he says, you know, the, they close the shades and everything. And then the wind comes whipping through and it's all dark. And all of a sudden he hears a voice go, how are you?

And Joe Venuti says, give me the hundred back. And he says, why? He says, my father never spoke a word of English.

The best part is I put it in a paper when I wrote for eighth grade. I put that story in a bit was like, where the hell did you find these people?

[Catherine Russell] (12:52 - 12:56)

That is a good, that's good. Oh my goodness.

[John Pizzarelli] (12:56 - 15:47)

And Zoot Sims. Zoot Sims. I got to see all the time.

The day after Christmas was Zoot Sims day in our house, because he would come the day after Christmas. And, uh, he would play, he played my sister's band clarinet once. He was a saxophone player, but my buggy's like, play the clarinet.

So we played the clarinet and all that. And, uh, we had a lot of fun with him. It's, it's, uh, and, and I got to, I got to actually do a few concerts with him. Yeah. With my, my father. And actually the, I told this one to, uh, I think Munisteri the other night that we, the first gig that I got to do, uh, Jack Klein singer's highlights in jazz. It was Bucky and me.

And then, and Jack always had a surprise guest. Well, the surprise guest was Zoot Sims. So we were backstage and I said, and my father and I'd say, Oh, last time we rehearsed for a gig.

We, we, he had five songs. We knew we had to play five songs. So we sat and we played them for three weeks sitting there.

I know what I know. No, we're going to do it again. So, uh, when we're backstage, I said, I know my five numbers, but I said to my father, I said, uh, what do you think Zoot's going to play?

We should find out in case I don't know the, one of the songs. I only knew nine songs. So he said, uh, that's a good idea.

So he says to Zoot, what do you want to, what do you want to play? Zoot? And Zoot says, uh, Stompin' on Savoy and da ba ba ba.

And he, and I was like, good, good, good. And then he goes, and maybe for the ballad, I'll do Ghost of a Chance. And I went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

So I said to my father, Ghost of a Chance, I like elbowed him. I said, I don't know that one. He goes, okay.

Now in the meantime, Klein singer's back there and my father's friend, Dick Ables, who always followed my father around, they called him Underground Ables because he could go anywhere in New York city on a rainy day and never get wet. And, uh, Dick Ables was in Isham Jones's band. That's how old he was.

And so Dick's backstage with us. I mean, in this dressing room and Jack Klein singer did not like Dick Ables for some odd reason and vice versa. Now Zoot's playing Ghost of a Chance.

I'm listening to the chords. Bucky's playing the chords and they're playing and Jack Klein singer and Dick Ables getting a fist fight. An actual fist fight.

I mean, like put up your dukes and Buck and nobody stops the fight. They're like, we're learning a song here. Could you please keep it down and nobody's separate.

Bucky's going, knock it off. And they're throwing punches. So that was very exciting times for me.

That was my first kick in New York city with Bucky. And finally they, somebody, you know, none of the punches landed. It was the ugliest, it was the stupidest fight, but that's what would go on.

And, you know, I'm going, I got to learn this song.

[Catherine Russell] (15:48 - 15:50)

You can't make this up.

[John Pizzarelli] (15:50 - 16:18)

And there's a picture of the three of us and Bucky's got so much sweat because in, after he played, I was on that side and after he played Savoy and Bucky's Bucky would solo and then Bucky looked back at him and he went like this and pointed to me and I wasn't allowed to play solos, but Zoot said, let him play. And so my father was like, Oh no, please. I made it through a chorus and send it back to the professionals.

[Catherine Russell] (16:21 - 16:26)

You're answering all the questions. I was, I, cause you know, Zoot Sims was the most fun too.

[John Pizzarelli] (16:26 - 16:29)

Zoot was, was near and dear to my heart.

[Catherine Russell] (16:29 - 16:29)

Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (16:29 - 20:33)

Now, Slam Stewart. Oh yeah. Yeah.

He stayed in our house. What he, they would work. He'd come down from Binghamton and he stayed at our house and, uh, and he spoke like Slim Gaillard, he spoke that, uh, you know, and he would speak and he would, we would, that was the one of the few times we would, we usually eat in the kitchen, you know, we had a little nook, but when Slam was there, we ate in the dining room, you know, and plus he was six, five or something, you know, and he would, he would always say like, Oh, he always said in the morning, good morning, goo. He'd say, good morning, goo.

My mother was, and so my mother finally was like, Oh, here's some spaghetti goo. And she was trying to, and, and my other assignment was when they got home from the gig, they played at Marty's in New York city. And I got to sit with, uh, Slam cause he liked to have Ovaltine cause Bucky liked Ovaltine.

So Slam would have the Ovaltine and I would just stare at him and he'd have the Ovaltine and cookies. And he liked the fact that Zoot Sims called Ovaltine knockout drops because that was the last thing you had before you went to bed, the Ovaltine. And he kept, and I can still see Slam having the cookie and he would go knockout drops.

I love that knockout drops. That was the big deal, you know, that they would, they all, they had all these dumb little things. And that was only one time that I asked Slam Stewart about Nat King Cole. Yeah. And he said, well, he was a great piano player at the jam sessions. And then one day he just started singing. And I was like, yeah.

And he was like, and that was it. It's like a, well, that's great. That's a wonderful story.

But he was the best. He was great too. That we had a lot of fun with him.

Oh man. And Clark Terry and Clark Terry. Well, Clark, yeah.

But Bucky worked more with Clark and I got to, you know, and the other part was, is when I got to make records, my father was my contractor, you know? So when I made a record for Chesky Records, they wanted me to make a record. And they said, we'll get Clark Terry and Milt Hinton and Bucky and, and, and Bucky would make the calls.

Hey Clark, my kid's making a record, you know, and Clark would do the record, you know, if we, because Bucky would make the calls. Hey, the kid's going to sing. Don't worry about it.

So was this the first, like the first one? I actually, I made three records for Stash. 83, 85, and 87.

I'm Hip. Yeah. Hit that Jive Jack and one called Sing, Sing, Sing.

And actually on Sing, Sing, Sing, Eddie Daniels played the clarinet, came in and just played the hell out of it because Bucky called him. He said, we don't play the clarinet thing. Well, you know, and because Bucky did Eddie Daniels' first record when he came to New York called Flower for All Seasons.

So Eddie was like, sure, Buck, I'll come down. What do you want me to do? And then the Chesky record was the big one because it was sort of a real national record and, and then, and we had Dave McKenna, Clark Terry, Milt Hinton, Bucky Pizzarelli, Connie Kay on drums.

Yeah. And one microphone. So I was standing, I sat in literary, you know, it had one mic.

That was the deal, you know? So they would, it was a digital record and we sat there and I'm looking at those guys and they're all sort of looking at me like, what do you want to do? And I'm thinking, I'm the boss of this group.

You know, it was, it was, it was two days and Dick Ables was there and Dick Ables' job was, he had his watch and he's going, you need another 30 minutes. You know, he didn't care what we were doing, because it was the first, it was a CD and you needed 70 minutes. Right.

When you made a record, you have 38 minutes, you know, right. It's like, you have 10 cuts. You need five more cuts.

I'm like, I don't know, I have five more songs. You know, and Clark Terry's going, I'm fine on this one. You can't be fine.

I need more trumpet.

[Catherine Russell] (20:34 - 20:37)

So who do, who helped you arrange everything?

[John Pizzarelli] (20:38 - 20:46)

I mean, well, I, I came up, I stole the little arrangements off of Nat Cole records and Dick Lieb, who was a, was in the Tonight Show band with my dad.

[Catherine Russell] (20:46 - 20:48)

And it was a great, he helped you with a bunch of stuff.

[John Pizzarelli] (20:48 - 21:07)

Yeah. Dick Lieb arranged my first two records on RCA and, but he would, I'd say, Dick, could you just write these out? And he made really nice lead sheets of my ideas.

I put them on me and Scott Robinson. He came to my apartment and we played them onto a tape and I sent it to Dick and he wrote it out for everybody.

[Catherine Russell] (21:08 - 21:08)

Nice.

[John Pizzarelli] (21:08 - 21:31)

Yeah. But I didn't realize is that all the guys were over, let's see, it was, he's 90. Everybody was at least 65 and the, and it was just, they were still like, I don't know if I can see that.

I thought I was prepared, but I wasn't prepared for the fonts to be too small. Yeah. I'm dealing with that right now.

[Catherine Russell] (21:33 - 21:49)

So, yeah. So when it, so in addition to all of your, your 20, your solo albums and all different kinds of solo albums, I mean, you know, I was going to ask you about how it was to work with George Shearing. Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (21:49 - 24:01)

Well, that was the other thing when I went to Telarc, they had, I think they, it was one of those things where I think they had a commitment for one more record from George and I was on the label already. Telarc was a wonderful label. And that was another one of those, well, there's sort of one microphone and then we'll figure the rest of it out.

Everything sounds distant. You know, you sound like, but George, so they said, look, it was one of those things to the guys, like, just call George and work it all out. Oh, I'll give George a buzz.

But George happened to live, we were on 90th and he was 88th. He was 88th between 5th and Madison and we were 90 and Lex. And George was like, oh, you want to come over and you'll do not a problem.

And we went over, I would go over and I'm going, I'm sitting here with George Shearing, you know, and I'm going, do you want to play this one? Oh yeah, that lovely, lovely. I love this one.

And then, uh, like the second or third rehearsal, uh, he said, you want to stay for tea? And I said, yeah, sure. And his wife said, you're in, you stayed for tea.

You made it. She like gave me the wink, you know? And, uh, and so, but the, the, the best, the, you know, the other part of the story was that was August of 2001.

And so we had a couple of rehearsals and then it was 9/11 and the, the, the record date was October 11th, 12th and 13th or, or 12, 13, 14. It was only a month later. And I actually, you know, somewhere on September 18th going, I'm not going to record any records, you know, any records.

And then once we got into the studio, I said, oh, this is why we make records. It was amazing. You know, George was there and we were hearing all that sound and his group and it was, it's beautiful record.

And we got to tour, have a couple of little concerts together. That's great. And we would do, and at the end we'd stand up, you know, and he'd put his armor on me and he'd say, pick a ballad, any ballad you want to sing.

And for the encore, he would just, we, you know, I said, okay, all of us here to stay. And he'd play and I'm going, wow, George Searing's playing piano for me. You know, he was, he was a prince.

[Catherine Russell] (24:02 - 24:35)

Wow. Fantastic. I mean, you know, so in addition to, uh, all of these jazz greats that you played with, you know, you co-produced, uh, an album for James Taylor that won, uh, it did win the Grammy for best traditional pop vocal album.

You know, so lucky on that. Yeah. So, but you did, you did a bunch of work with James though.

[John Pizzarelli] (24:35 - 25:48)

Well, what I, what happened was also in August of 2001, Russ Titelman, uh, said, uh, Russ, uh, he said he was doing a record, a new James Taylor record. And he said, there's this cut that you would, you and Larry Golding should play on with Steve Gadd on drums. And I think, uh, and Jimmy Johnson was his bass player.

So we went to Clinton and I had my guitar and I'm in the booth and James came into the booth and he said, the song goes like this. And it was a little swinging song called Mean Old Man. And so we'd go to tune and I was thinking of that and, uh, and James Taylor's in front of me and behind him outside of the booth is Titelman going like, don't fuck this up.

Like, you know, don't nothing from nothing now. Let him, let him tell you, you know, don't get kooky. I know you, and this is going to get weird.

Then I was just sitting there and I'm going, okay. And we did the thing. I actually played the verse with him on the guitar, you know?

And he was just, he was, you know, he's like, that's really great. He goes, I love that strumming, that rhythm thing you do. James said to me, I said, well, I like that finger picking thing that you do.

[Catherine Russell] (25:49 - 25:50)

Pretty good.

[John Pizzarelli] (25:50 - 26:04)

So we did that and we did Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas at the same date. And then, um, uh, the record came out and I did three concerts with them with the, with John Williams and the orchestra.

[Catherine Russell] (26:04 - 26:06)

Oh, where did you do that?

[John Pizzarelli] (26:06 - 29:57)

We did, uh, well, the Tanglewood one was great, but we did three at the Hollywood Bowl. And then, um, we, uh, actually, and Jesse and my daughter, Madeline came to the rehearsal up at Tanglewood. They had a little room and we rehearsed.

And, uh, Jessica always said, you know, she sat Maddie on her lap when James is singing Fire and Rain. And she said, just, I know you don't know what this means, but just sit here and listen for a second. And so, uh, we got to play and then when we played in Tanglewood, they usually have, um, uh, they put a cap on how many people can be there.

But for some reason on this night, they didn't cap it and there was 25,000 people. Uh, and you know, and so James said to us, um, at intermission, he said, look, because not everybody's in yet and we still got to do our six things. So I don't know, what we'll do is they'll finish and we'll go back out.

Like we go back out after Star Wars and, uh, you know, the Indiana Jones and all that. All of the, yeah. So now they all run off and we, and they say, James is going to come back and play for those who might've missed the middle.

So James says to me and Larry Golding's in the band, do any of you guys know any more of my songs? And I said, this is like the dream I had when I was 17. It's like, yeah, I know.

Don't let me be lonely tonight and steamroller. Yeah. And, and we got to play and, uh, it was, and it was a moment where I played a solo on steamroller and I stood up next to James and I had my two-tone shoes on and played this thing and, and my son was there that night and, and, uh, when we finished, he, when he walked up, he said, that was so cool.

And I said, well, there, that's why you do these things. That's right. So, so James, we were making dinner in, uh, 2016.

And, uh, somebody writes me and says, James wants to talk to you. Is this the correct number? Like the text came in like James.

And I said, yes. So I just, we made salmon. We take the salmon out of the oven.

I put it in the thing, text from James to, Hey, can I talk to you? I want to talk to you about a record I want to make. And I said, I'm just sitting down to dinner.

Let's talk in like a half an hour. Is that, that okay? And he said, what's for dinner?

And I said, say, I texted salmon and he wrote back slamming. And then he called me back and said, I'm, he goes, I want to make a record of, uh, standards. And he said, and you demand, he wrote, he wrote in the text, you demand.

It's like, okay. And he said, so I went up to the barn, sat with him. Spent eight hours.

And then he said, okay, we'll do this, uh, in June or July or whatever the hell it was he, after he toured, when I think it's September, I went back and we spent two or three weeks and just the two of us and, uh, and an engineer, the three of us were the producers of the record. He didn't want any, um, keyboards. He just wanted two guitars and he wanted me every once in a while and say, you could play this chord and he'd say, oh, well, that's a good chord, you know?

And he'd play that and he would, the day would start, you'd have your donut or your, he had a little kitchen off the barn. You have a little breakfast and we, and then all of a sudden while you're eating breakfast, he took his guitar out and he'd start to play. What do you think of Pennies from Heaven?

I said, well, that's a good one, you know? And he'd play a little and then we'd go into the room and we'd play like sitting over there. Then we'd get into our stations where everything was mic'd up and we would, and this would be like, go from 12 to six.

You'd finally around six o'clock, you'd have Pennies from Heaven down and record it.

[Catherine Russell] (29:58 - 30:06)

One, one tune a day. And then dinner. This is the difference between pop, between pop artists and jazz artists.

[John Pizzarelli] (30:06 - 31:31)

Well, that was, and that's the other story. So we, so dinner and then the, uh, his studio, uh, woman would come and say, James, I think, you know, be nice if the guys ate dinner. And so we go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We'd eat dinner and somewhere around the end of dinner. He'd take the guitar out again and say, you know, Over the Rainbow is a nice tune. Yeah, that's a good one.

And then we'd go to about 1230 and we'd have Over the Rainbow and then he said, okay. And there was a, down his hill there, we had a little guest house that I stayed in and I went down there and I'd stay. And then he said, I'll see you tomorrow at like 1130.

Good. 11. Say it.

And we did that for three weeks. Yeah. And it was fun.

And like, you know, the other thing about the shearing record, we made the record on, uh, 12, 13, 14. They were mixing Mean Old Man on 57th street, Titelman and James and Titelman said, come over. You can hear it.

We had recorded it in August and they were working on this thing for six months. So he said, uh, Oh, what are you doing in town? James said to me, so, well, I'm just making a record with, uh, George sharing.

Oh, great. Uh, uh, when did you do it? Oh, well, we just did it yesterday and today and tomorrow.

He goes, well, when's it going to be done? I said, it's done. He's he's in month six and I'm on day three finished.

He sort of shook his head like, I can't believe it. You know?

[Catherine Russell] (31:31 - 31:32)

Yeah, I know.

[John Pizzarelli] (31:32 - 31:32)

Right.

[Catherine Russell] (31:33 - 31:35)

Yeah. That's called a budget.

[John Pizzarelli] (31:35 - 32:07)

Right. And well, then the thing about the, he liked the barn because he could do whatever he wanted, 12 hour days. And he says it's so, and he may had made his, the Angels of Fenway that record, uh, today, today or whatever they call it.

They made that in the barn. That's what he did. And everybody could stay in Lennox and then he had carte blanche, you know, and for him, it was fun.

And then they did vocal things in the hotels, you know, they got two adjoining rooms around the chords in one side and the other side was the board and that kind of stuff. It was sort of fascinating, you know?

[Catherine Russell] (32:07 - 32:11)

Yeah. So Russ Teitelman, we all know who that is, right?

[John Pizzarelli] (32:11 - 32:21)

He's a great record producer who produced, uh, everybody. Chaka Khan, Ricky Lee Jones, Stevie Woodward, James Taylor. How sweet it is that record, Gorilla, that record.

[Catherine Russell] (32:22 - 33:03)

I mean, everybody you can think of, uh, Eric Clapton, you know, Stevie, when did you say Stevie Wynwood, Traffic, George Benson, so just, so just so we know, great pop, one of the great producers and humans. So you, I mean, do you have a favorite? We love to work, I know, but do you have a favorite?

Do you like the small group better? Do you like, I know you've, you've done big band, you did a big band record with Clayton Hamilton. It was a great record, Sinatra record.

Um, you know, just, just duos with your dad. I mean, you know, the just, just live duos. And then I want to ask you about that too.

Do you have a favorite symphony, you know, pops?

[John Pizzarelli] (33:04 - 34:03)

Oh, I like, you know, the thing is the, it's all, what makes it nice is it's all an adventure. So, you know, let's like, I look in the thing, oh, Catherine's on that. You know, we're going to go to, we're going to go to Memphis.

You know, that's something that's good. Oh, the, the Birdland gigs are fun because they can go either way. You can do a four horns, trio, you know, so that it's great to have all of those diverse things from, from the symphony, you know, you can do them all.

And so there's so many, and I have, I mean, it must be a hundred thousand dollars I put into the symphony charts. Don Sebesky wrote, you know, 80% of that book, you know, and I got a Sinatra show John Clayton wrote, and then I had Torrie Zito and Sebesky add to that, you know, so I'd have 90 minutes in a venue. So it's all exciting, you know, it doesn't, to me, it's, it's always fun when somebody says, you want to go to Knoxville and play with the big band there and I go, Oh, this'll be fun.

[Catherine Russell] (34:04 - 34:12)

And, uh, so you got 60 minutes, you got 75 minutes, you got 90 minutes, you got two sets. You got a whole long, one long set.

[John Pizzarelli] (34:13 - 34:36)

Yeah. And the thing that's amazing too, is when you get to play those things and you go to a, like, I went to Orlando last year, played an orchestra gig. It's the first time I'd seen my sister since the pandemic. And, and I remember sitting there and there they are, sawing away and playing all these arrangements.

And it was, it's beautiful. It's like, I'm like Rhode Island is famous for you, you know, weeping. It's terrible.

[Catherine Russell] (34:37 - 34:41)

So, so, uh, Paul McCartney, tell us about, uh, who?

[John Pizzarelli] (34:43 - 38:46)

Same thing. So this was Tommy LiPuma and Tommy LiPuma had hired me to do, uh, a Diana Krall thing and, uh, and then they canceled and LiPuma called me up. He was the greatest guy.

So he's the, the equivalent to jazz of what Titelman is. What, uh, Tommy LiPuma's claim to fame was the record Amoroso by George Alberto. And he also did Breezin, that little record that George Benson made, to name a few, and did all of the Diana Krall records.

So he was doing a record. She couldn't, she had to cancel. No problem.

He calls me up. Hey man. Hey man.

Um, and he always likes her like this. Hey man, uh, I'll pay you for the date. It's no big deal.

You know? And I said, Tommy, because this is me, stupid, but smart. I said, you know what?

You don't have to pay me for the date, but I know where you eat in New York City, I know you go to Sistina on the Upper East Side. He said, I said, take me to dinner. I want to just hang out with you one night.

He was like, ah, okay, man. So it ended up me, Titelman, and Tommy. And Tommy told me all, you know, we just, he just held court and told stories.

So we were sort of friends. So he called me one day on the phone and said, Hey man, I got a record date for you. I can't tell you who it's with.

It's with Paul McCartney. And, uh, so we had to go out to Capitol. I was between Savannah, Georgia and Clarksville, Tennessee.

I had one date in the middle. My birthday was the day before. I flew out to, uh, I left Molaskey and Savannah and I flew to LA.

I was in the studio at 10 AM before anybody got there. Me and Al Schmidt, the engineer, Tommy's right-hand man. And there I was sitting there in my jacket and tie and, you know, waiting for Paul McCartney.

Straight from the airport. Straight from the airport, right to the place. Left my bag there.

You can't check in. I said, I'm not checkin' in. Take the thing.

I walked across the street, the Capitol records, like, Oh my God. And, um, and, uh, I'll tell you the, the one McCartney, the one thing. So in the meantime, they had called me a month earlier while I was in an airport.

And someone said, look, Tommy would like to know, you can't do the second day because I had to go to Clarksville. So will your father do the date? Well, I said, okay, he's in the book.

Call him. I said, I'll do anything. And so they hired Bucky to play the next day.

So he got there the day I got there and he just wanted to hang out. So he was in the booth watching me. And LiPuma said he wanted the two of us to play paper moon with Paul.

So we all went at Paul and we ran out. And, um, we were in the, in the main room and we played paper moon with the guitar. We sounded great and everything.

And they all went in to listen to the take. And I was sitting with Bucky, you know, and going, how was the flight? And he's not a good flight, you know, ice, hot chocolate and everything, you know?

And so somebody came out with this forms and said, you have to sign these forms. And I looked at it and it said, um, what do they call those things? Non-disclosure agreement.

So I signed the thing and I said, you got to sign this. He said, sure. You have best wishes.

Bucky Pizzarelli. It's not what they meant, but it became a, it, it, it did win the Grammy. And, uh, we were on, uh, we, we played, we did a whole week of that.

I mean, that's, I mean, I opened for Sinatra. I opened, uh, 18 concerts for Sinatra. And as close as you get to that, I mean, Sinatra was on the same.

The only two people I think you can show pictures to, as we did once to the guy at the diner, Jessica would take my phone. She goes, you see who he played with? It's like, Paul McCartney, you know? Yeah. Or Frank, you know, and that was only time, anything you needed and either one of those dates you could get like that. So, you know, I, you know, I, I need a Lamborghini, get him a Lamborghini.

[Catherine Russell] (38:49 - 38:50)

Their people.

[John Pizzarelli] (38:50 - 38:50)

Yes.

[Catherine Russell] (38:52 - 39:22)

So in listening to, um, I was listening to, um, and we only have a few, we need another hour to talk to you. But, um, I was listening to the duet record. It's a live record that you did with your dad, the vineyard from the vineyard.

And I was trying to figure out just from a music, a musician standpoint, who did what, like, how do you, how did you arrange, did you talk about, okay, I'm going to play rhythm now and you, you, you, you solo, or you just, you just play.

[John Pizzarelli] (39:22 - 40:03)

Or do you just, the key word is eyebrows. When we got, when, you know, it started, I was the accompanist and he was the guitarist and we would play. And as I got better, I got to play a little more and we, we, we find what we were doing, it got better and better.

Cause I got better, you know, so at the beginning he was doing a lot of work. And then when we, like, I'd say we hit our stride in the mid eighties where I finally got to play a little, you know, I could play a little, you know, I could play a little more guitar. Right. So, and then once we hit the nineties, we were fearless, you know, what we were like, bring it on.

[Catherine Russell] (40:03 - 40:03)

Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (40:03 - 41:10)

And so, and he would play. So, you know, when you'd see him play, you just, I keep, you keep an eye on him and you watch him. And then as soon as the eyebrows go up, that means you take it.

That was the thing. The eyebrows would go up and I'd see, here it comes. I'd see him look over and I was ready to go.

And that's the thing. And, you know, we loved it cause we got real snotty about it, you know, it was really fun because, uh, we were like, you know, yeah, what do you want? It's two guitars, you know, they'd be like the two Italians are here.

Get out of the way. We were really, it was really a gas because it was, uh, it was so much fun. Yeah.

That was the thing. It sounds like fun. Oh.

And you know, well, what's your father and you're sitting there with this guy, you know, I mean, it was, you know, I, I, I, I have that fun with my, with Mike Karn and with Paul Keller and Isaiah. Now we have, cause I was, the hard part was, was when I started my group, I was like, I'm starting from, from right from the beginning again, to try and get to where we were and we, we were two guys. We could play for 5,000 people and they would stand up at the end because we could do that.

[Catherine Russell] (41:10 - 41:10)

Right.

[John Pizzarelli] (41:11 - 41:14)

And, you know, we had, it was 12 years of working together.

[Catherine Russell] (41:14 - 41:15)

Yeah.

[John Pizzarelli] (41:15 - 41:57)

So that was the problem was like, well, I got to get my band to get to that level. So that was always the thing, you know? And so we did get there, but like, you know, now it's the same thing where, you know, Isaiah knows if I, if I turn my head, he knows it's time, you know, or vice versa.

Now everybody just knows it's, there was never like, don't do that. So it's like, oh, if you're going to do that, maybe we can make this work. So that was the other thing was it all positive energy up there, you know?

Absolutely. Which I, I am happy to be a part of from time to time. Well, we have a lot of fun doing that.

That's like, you know, when I hit a wrong chord every once in a while, I think I'm going to, can I see you look over like that? And I go, oh, it doesn't go to F it goes to C.

[Catherine Russell] (41:59 - 42:04)

Well, tell the people now you're a stage and screen is your latest release available here.

[John Pizzarelli] (42:05 - 42:31)

If there's a limited copies, because why should we make any money? But I do. Yeah.

Stage and screens, the latest release with Isaiah and Mike Karn. And, um, we got, you know, four records we haven't, you know, out there, but Jessica, uh, made, we've made, uh, we've made about five, there's a really great Joni Mitchell record she's made, uh, that we've done together. We, in the meantime, we were able to make some great records together.

[Catherine Russell] (42:32 - 42:39)

I did the deep, uh, the deep listening, uh, Pizzarelli, Molaskey, uh, deep listening thing, so they're all available again.

[John Pizzarelli] (42:40 - 43:00)

And Bucky, the first one was called pentimento and Bucky and Johnny Frigo. Beautiful. Molaskey, Ray Kennedy and Martin and Tedesco on that.

It's a real, I mean, there's some, that's the other part is we've been very lucky to have all these people on our records over the years, and you can point to those little moments that are, you know, magical. Just beautiful.

[Catherine Russell] (43:00 - 43:16)

And Radio Deluxe. Radio Deluxe. You've reached your thousandth show and that is also a great show where you just learn so much, you know, and you, you just play so much different types of material on there.

It's beautiful.

[John Pizzarelli] (43:16 - 43:33)

It's a, we do that. And hopefully that'll be on, uh, in the next month on WBGO, it'll be on during the week. So they got it.

We got a two hour slot during the week there and it's on around the country. And if you don't have a radio or you have a computer, it's mixcloud.com, just right in Radio Deluxe.

[Catherine Russell] (43:33 - 43:55)

They all come up there and it's so easy. Now we have just a few minutes for Q and A, if anybody has any questions, uh, Irene will come around with the microphone. There's somebody right there.

Okay. Just wait for the mic so that everybody can hear you. Right there.

That gentleman there.

[Staff Member] (43:56 - 44:00)

I hold on to the mic so we're not passing germs. No, no. So we're not passing germs.

[Audience Member 1] (44:00 - 44:16)

Um, who would you say, what other guitar players really inspired you as you were coming up through the ranks as a musician? And, uh, who do you listen to now? Who do you, you know, who do you really enjoy listening to?

[John Pizzarelli] (44:17 - 45:00)

Uh, well, the three guitar players that I really liked that I listened to when I was coming up besides Bucky were, there was a guy named George Barnes out of Chicago, who was a great guitar player who my father worked with a lot, who's just genius. Uh, Oscar Moore played guitar with Nat Cole's group and I really loved listening to his playing. And then there was a guy named George Van Epps who played the seventh string, who invented the seventh string guitar.

It was fantastic. And I listened to them. Uh, I really love a lot of the guys who were on the ship.

I heard Dan Higgins play last night and I'm afraid to play with them now. So there were some wonderful guitar players on board. I know Jamiro Labamba might be coming on with Diane Reeves and Munisteri who plays with you.

[Catherine Russell] (45:00 - 45:01)

It was fantastic.

[John Pizzarelli] (45:01 - 45:18)

And all the guys, I mean, geez, Kovacek and, uh, I mean, there's a, it's amazing. Uh, they're all wonderful. I mean, uh, there's only, there's always too many to listen to, you know, and there's a Brazilian guitar player named Toninho Horta that I really like.

[Staff Member] (45:19 - 45:20)

One more question.

[Audience Member 2] (45:20 - 45:28)

I, uh, John, how did you, uh, how did it evolve where you did the Frank Sinatra Radio City?

[John Pizzarelli] (45:29 - 46:44)

Oh, it was just, you know, the, the guy, um, Des McAnuff who did the show, Tommy was in charge and they, I don't know, they, somebody knew of me and asked me to do it. There was a show called Sinatra, his world, his way. And they had these old film, they had, uh, Sinatra would come in and he had recorded the rehearsals of this television show on a camera where he just played, you could just barely hear the piano and they added the band afterwards.

So they figured, well, we got these films, we'll bring them in and we'll have the band play live with a click track. And I had to run around and say in 19, this is Sinatra. And the band would go, and then all of a sudden he's going, I've got you under my skin.

Oh my God. And that's, and so we did that for like two weeks at Radio City. That was the only time other than when I went into the Royale Theater right before we did Dream.

I did four months of a Broadway show where I met Jess. Yay. And, uh, that was the, that time and going into Radio City and seeing an empty Radio City and going, I am in way over my head.

6,000 empty seats and just going, well, this is an amazing place. It's a beautiful place. Oh my God.

[Catherine Russell] (46:45 - 46:51)

Thank you. We have time for one more question.

[Audience Member 3] (46:52 - 47:05)

Uh, it certainly sounds like it was inevitable for you to go into the family business of music, but I'm just curious. Was there ever a time in your childhood that you considered doing anything else? And what would that have been?

[John Pizzarelli] (47:05 - 47:59)

Well, I couldn't hit a curve ball, so it wasn't going to be a baseball player. I loved baseball and I was, the only other job I had was a camp counselor at night stay camp, which was five minutes from my house. So I did that until I was 25.

But I mean, I, uh, I liked the thing that I liked. All these people were the, you know, were the best people at, on their instrument. So you say Zoot Sims, Les Paul, Slam Stewart, Benny Goodman, George Shearing.

George Shearing. These are the people who were hanging around our house. So I was like, well, I like, I want to be with these guys.

And the only way to be with those guys was to learn their language and their language was Honeysuckle Rose, you know? So that's how you got in the group. And I was like, I want to be with, this is a fun bunch, you know, as it's like being on the cruise when you start to be with these guys, you're so glad you know the songs.

[Catherine Russell] (47:59 - 48:08)

Yes, that's true. Thank John Pizzarelli once again. Thank you so much, everybody.

[Lee Mergner] (48:11 - 49:32)

Well, thanks for listening to this episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations. Hope you enjoyed that talk with Catherine and John. You can follow them by going to their websites, CatherineRussell.com and JohnPizzarelli.com.

Both are also very active on Facebook. And both of them will be sailing on the 2026 edition of the Jazz Cruise, which will sail from Fort Lauderdale, January 27th on the Celebrity Summit with stops in Coco Cay and San Juan. The lineup features headliners such as Paquito de Rivera, Chucho Valdez, Monty Alexander, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Anat Cohen, Kurt Elling, Benny Green, Bria Skonberg, Benny Binnock III, Jeff Hamilton, John Clayton, and many others.

Well, as well as our hosts, Emmett Cohen and Catherine herself. Sailing with us for the first time are Ron Carter, Janice Siegel, and Matthew Whittaker. And don't forget, of course, our comedian in residence, Alonzo Bowden.

Go to thejazzcruise.com to learn more. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song High Life on his album Aphrodisia on Blue Note. And thanks to Matty, the sound engineer who captured this and so many other talks from the sailings.

You can subscribe to Jazz Cruise's conversations on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, so you won't miss a single episode. And you can also listen to our back catalog of, yeah, 99 interviews from past sailings. Thanks for listening.