Bill Charlap on Tony Bennett: A Jazz Singer's Interactive Art

This episode of Jazz Cruise Conversations features a highly insightful interview between host and renowned jazz radio personality Dick Golden and Grammy Award-winning pianist Bill Charlap, recorded live during The Jazz Cruise 2019.

The core of the conversation focuses on Charlap's profound and multi-faceted collaboration with NEA Jazz Master and American original, Tony Bennett. The discussion is anchored by their critically acclaimed 2017 Jerome Kern tribute CD, The Silver Lining, for which Charlap shared a Grammy Award, and includes tracks from their nominated 2018 album with Diana Krall, Love is Here to Stay.

Charlap reveals the deep mutual respect between himself and Bennett, detailing recording sessions, discussing the essence of jazz singing, and reflecting on the timeless genius of the Great American Songbook composers.

Key Takeaways

• The Definition of a Jazz Singer: Charlap categorizes Tony Bennett as a jazz singer primarily because his art is interactive. Like a member of a rhythm section, Bennett is constantly listening and responding to the accompaniment, making his performance the work of an improviser.
• Bennett's Musical Lineage: Tony Bennett's singing style is a unique blend of "great belcanto Italian singing and jazz singing". Charlap noted that Bennett draws deep inspiration from various sources, including Judy Garland, Bing Crosby, Louis Armstrong, and even the emotional honesty found in the singing of Billy Holiday,.
• The Silver Lining Collaboration: The acclaimed Jerome Kern tribute album integrated several formats: Bennett in duet with Charlap, with the full Bill Charlap Trio (Peter Washington and Kenny Washington), and in duo piano settings with Charlap's wife, Renée Rosnes.
• The Maestro of Melody (Kern): Charlap describes Jerome Kern (born 1885) as "the angel at the top of the tree of popular songwriters," noting that other composers looked up to him as the pioneer of the American Popular Song. Kern’s writing was sophisticated yet accessible, exemplified by the complex chromaticism in songs like "All the Things You Are",.
• Spontaneous Creativity in the Studio: Charlap detailed several moments of pure, intense instinct from Bennett during recordings. For the Hoagy Carmichael song "I Get Along Without You Very Well," Bennett picked up and reacted to Charlap’s specific piano voicing, incorporating it into his sung phrase. On Kern's "All the Things You Are," Bennett spontaneously initiated a key change mid-solo, forcing Charlap to accompany him a half-step up and create a "marvelous moment",.
• Bennett's Life Philosophy: Drawing on lessons learned from his mother during his upbringing in Astoria, Queens, Bennett lives with a "permanent enthusiasm". A non-musical lesson Charlap shared was Bennett's belief that singing is not a choice, but a compulsion he "had to sing," a sentiment attributed to Joe Williams,.
• Connection and Humanity: Dick Golden noted Bennett's custom of acknowledging and connecting with all people, regardless of status, such as housekeeping staff in the green room.
• Album Production Trivia: The photography for the The Silver Lining CD jacket, taken in a studio full of mirrors, resulted in a humorous illusion: the images of drummer Kenny Washington and bassist Peter Washington appeared backwards, leading Ron Carter to call Charlap to ask why the rhythm section was s

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Host/Narrator: A quick word from our sponsors. This week's episode is sponsored by the Birdland Jazz Club in New York City. This club located on 44th Street near Time Square is one of the premier venues for jazz in New York or even in the world. Founded and run by our longtime friend Johnny Valente, Birdland presents the top artists in this music, including many jazz crews favorites such as Kurt Elling, John Pitzerelli, Veronica Swift, EMTT Cohen, Benny Green, Bill Charlap, Ken Palowski, and Hampton. and Callaway and many, many more. Great sound, sightelines, and yes, food. Learn more at birdlandjazz.com. Now, enjoy this episode of Jazz Cruise Conversations. Hi and welcome to Jazz Cruise Conversations, a podcast presented by Entertainment Cruise Productions. I'm this week's host, Dick Golden, and every week we present a different conversation pulled from our jazz cruises. This week's episode features an interview I had with one of the truly great jazz pianist award-winning Bill Charlap. The focus of our conversation was about an American original NEA Jazzm Tony Bennett. Bill shared a Grammy with Mr. Bennett for his 2017 collaboration on the Jerome Kern tribute CD, The Silver Lining. Our conversation included Bill's earliest memories of when Tony Bennett and his music came into Bill's life.

(Music Interlude: "Our Love Is Here to Stay")

Singer (Tony Bennett and Diana Krall): Our love is here to stay. Not for a year, but ever end the day, the radio and the telephone, and the movies that we know. may just be passing fancies and in time may go. But oh my dear, our love is here to stay together. where going a long long way in time. The Rockies may crumble. Gibralta may tumble. They're only made of clay. But Our love is here to stay. It's very clear. Our love is here to stay. Not for a year. But ever end a day. The radio and the telephone and the movies that we know may just be passing fancies. And in time may go, but oh my dear, our love is here to stay together. Going a long long way. crumble. May they're only made of clay. But our love is here to stay.

Dick Golden (DG): American classics, Tony Bennett, Diana Crawl, and Bill Charlap. And Bill Charlap's a trio and Love is Here to Stay. Bill, it's an honor to have you here with us this morning to discuss one of our favorite topics.

Bill Charlap (BC): Thank you, Dick. It's an honor to be with you. And how about that bass player and drummer?

DG: Unbelievable. Peter Washington and Kenny Washington and in Incidentally, before I forget it, at the end, they'll be here performing this evening at 7:30 in this room. 7 o'clock rather. So, get here at 6:30. Um, you know, the timelessness of that, the uh I was at the Gershwin Prize concert that Tony performed in uh 2017 at D Hall in Washington. I believe Shelley Berg was the piano player.

BC: He was the for all these wonderful and he was so beautifully appreciated by that. audience.

DG: But uh Carla Hayden, the librarian of Congress, was going to present Tony. He became the first song interpreter to be awarded the Library of Congress Gershwin Prize. And um this I could see Nancy Pelosi up here and Republicans, the whole house. It was like that. And Tony came out at the end and he he started, "The more I read the papers, the less I comprehend. The wor world in all its papers and the audience just started applauding. They thought he was making up. But I think it's a great example, Bill, of how timeless those songs are that we love.

BC: Ira Gershwin knew what he was doing. Yes, he he certainly did. And um you I think as I know the story, you first met Tony, I believe, through an introduction from Phil Woods.

DG: No, actually I used to play uh solo piano and at a club called Jay's in New York City a long time ago. It's now a Sleepy's Mattress store. Actually, it's actually it's not even anymore. I don't remember what it is now, but it was on 97th Street in Broadway. Was a great place and had a very eclectic mix of music.

BC: Um Helen Keane, who was Bill Evans manager, had pulled Tony Bennett's coat uh to come in and hear me. And uh that was the first time that I had met Tony. But just meeting Hello, how are you? It's uh I'm delighted to meet you. Um I was playing with Phil Woods then subsequently quite a few years later at the Blue Note and we were in the um dressing room and the uh manager of the club came up and said Tony Bennett is here. He'd like to talk to you. So that's fantastic. You know um so I went and spoke with him and he said Ralph Sharon was going to be taking off for a couple of concerts and would I come and play a few concerts with him and that's how that started. That is amazing. I was going to play a track uh right now just a minute and a half or so of a portion of an interview I did with uh Tony when your name came up. The first time I became really aware of you. I've been aware of you, but his enthusiasm for you and his love of what you did. He came up with a concept. He said, "Dick, let's do a program called Beyond Category." He said, "You know my proclivities." He said, "I love Jimmy Durant and I love Bill Evans and everyone in between. So, um, I said, "Tony, let's do how about a program called up centered around just pianists." And what inspired that was his performance on the Grammy of the year 1995 MTV Unplugged, his performance of an Irving Berlin song called I Love Piano. So, I just And so, here

Tony Bennett (TB) [Interview Clip]: that's what Ellington would say about the musicians he loved. They were beyond category. So, I love piano. I love piano. I love to hear this fella play upon a piano. A grand piano. It simply carries me away. Show him how to do it, Ralph. I love the fine hein. I love his fingers. Oh, the keys, the ivories. and with a pedal. He loves to metal, not only music from Broadway. He's so delighted when he's invited to hear some long genius play so you can keep your fiddle and your i o right up to an upright for a fine tone baby. So Tony, we've talked about uh pianist you've loved, Ralph Sharon, of course, Art Tatum, Dave McKenna, John Bunch, Bill Evans, the great uh Tommy Flanigan.

TB [Interview Clip]: And there's also Bill Salop today is a young guy who's becoming very famous now.

DG: I just saw him at the Village Vanguard and the audience is enthralled with him.

TB [Interview Clip]: Little Charlap Trail. That's nice.

DG: Thank that was a

BC: Thank you, Dick. That's really nice.

DG: Thank you. Because that occasion when you and and Peter and Kenny recorded that magnificent tribute to Hoagy Carmarmac, I think you had Frank West as a guest on a track, Shirley Horn.

BC: Shirley Horn, Frank West, Jim Hall, and Tony Bennett.

DG: That's right. So, what was Did you ask him to be a guest? And that how did that all come about that particular?

BC: Well, uh, my trio with Kenny Washington at the drums and Peter Washington at the bass. We were doing um an album of Hoagy Carmichael songs and it was an appropriate time to have special guests on all of that music and particularly uh two uh vocal giants because a Hoagy Carmichael song is only half the song if it's just the music. So we have the lyrics and Shirley Horn sang a magnificent uh Stardust. Uh and I wanted her to sing that and she was amenable to it. But by and large, I asked uh the players what would they like to play. Um it was funny. Uh Jim Hall came up with Two Sleepy People and I thought, "Oh, what a great idea." And Frank West rock and chair made perfect sense. But um Tony said he loved I get along without you, which is such a a pro ing song and a unique construction of Hoagy Carmichaels. It's kind of it reminds me of Harold Arland in that it's almost a free form the way that it floats and the way that it develops. And he simply came in that morning. I think we did um one or two takes. Both were very good from start to finish and just embraced the mood and the feeling of it. And um I think we did with with with uh without headphones on or anything, just listening to each other. And it was a natural, you know, of course, he tells a story uh so beautifully and is like the red carpet for the composer and the lyric writer, you know, and draws on so many things as he said everything from Jimmy Durant, you know, you hear Durant say it's so important to make someone happy, you know, or or you'll find something uh with Tony, you know, it's somewhere between um great belcanto Italian singing and jazz singing. So, he'll do things uh and he's a painter, so there's a a a lot of line in there. He'll go, I'll find you in the morning sun and when the night is through, you know, something like that. And it underlines the whole thing. And it, of course, it also is very direct, you know, I think something that you feel with Almost every really great artist is somehow we all feel we're the only one who quite understands it, right? Because it's so direct and it's so personal that you feel that somehow it it speaks to you personally. So he has a way of being very direct and personal to one person but also overreaching and uh kind of you know a song like What a Wonderful World the way that that speaks to all humanity. So I think that that's there and you'll also find elements of Billy Holiday in his singing, elements of Lewis Armstrong in his singing, you don't think about it as being Billy Holiday because her tamber is so unique, uh it's so different from Tony's, but if you listen to him sing something like in my solitude, now think about Billy Holiday. It's exactly coming from there. So it's very interesting. uh really is uh very informed and um all Judy Garland also is very important. Bing Crosby is very important. Armstrong like I said all those things are there. And of course it was um Billy Holidayiday that Sinatra would go into 52nd Street and listen to Billy Holiday her honesty. I think when Peter Hamill wrote a book what how Sinatra matters he said uh Sinatra's singing compared to Bing Crosby He said you have to remember Sinatra revealed more than he concealed.

BC: Yes. It uh you know when you listen to him sing uh particularly those magnificent things from in this in the we small hours.

DG: Yes.

BC: Which is a magnificent collaboration of Sinatra and Nelson Riddle and also Only the Lonely. Those two albums are so important.

DG: And the track you mentioned though that you recorded that day and I'm going to play an excerpt right now because you set it up so beautifully for us to understand what it was like. Tony walked in the studio, we discussed the song and the recording, but two two cuts. And when Stanley Crouch, who wrote the liner notes for the uh Grammy nominated Bill Charlap Trio CD honor to Hoagy Carmichael, said, "This recording might very well be a masterpiece." So, here's Tony. I don't know, he was must have been in his 60s at this particular time, but probably by that time had his heart broken. spoken a few times. That's what he brought into the studio. And this is what came out when the microphone came on.

(Music Interlude: "I Get Along Without You Very Well")

Tony Bennett (TB) [Vocal]: I get along without you very well. Of course I do. and drip from leaves. Then I recall the thrill of being sheltered in your arms. Of course I do. But I get along without you. Very well. I've forgotten you. Just like I should. Of course I have. Except to hear your name. or someone's life that is the

DG: Tony Bennett, Bill Charlap's trio and Hoagy Carmichael.

BC: There are a lot of very interesting things in that because one of the reasons that I would have to categorize uh Tony Bennett as a jazz singer is that and this is what in my mind is part of what makes what we call a jazz singer. People are always asking what is it? It's that it's interactive. You know, when we play together as a trio, it's 33% all the time, each member listening to each other and responding to what each other are doing. Well, uh I played um a particular choice of color at one point. You know, these things are all improvised. So, I played um I get along without you very well. Of course, I do. So, uh I get along without you very well. He said, "I played a voicing uh with a a C on top. It's this note." And he sang, "Of course I do. now because he's listening to what's going on behind him and becoming a part of what's happening within the rhythm section or within the harmony um it becomes a conversation and in that sense uh it's an improvisers's art and you know I think all of those things are u happening at the same time it's Tony Bennett the painter Tony Bennett the actor Tony Bennett the singer and Tony Bennett the musician You're hearing all of those choices and they're being made on the fly. The instinct is very intense. The the instinct and the taste are something I think are unteachable. Um but uh also he grew and has grown and changed through the years so much. You know, you really do hear an evolution and that's very Interesting. Anyway, I I think that's a very dramatic.

DG: wonderful insight and uh you know Joe Williams, he Tony told me one time when we were talking because we would be driving in my car on Cape Cod and his wife Susan would be in the back seat and Tony would say, "Um, Dick, do you know that Irving Berlin song?" No, but can be told. You know, when you're driving along the I can't believe what I'm hearing. This is like radio was this and you choose it at a tempo.

BC: at a right the perfect tempo.

DG: and I said to him one time I said Tony everything with it's just so spontaneous I mean you're singing on the phone you're singing in the car and he said well Joel Williams gave me he said it saved me a lot of money uh from a psychiatrist coach he said uh because he told me one time he said Tony you have to understand it's not that you want to sing it's that you have to sing and you hear that like you have to play and it's interesting.

BC: I think that's true for any artist you know that you don't you don't do this because uh you have a choice.

DG: it's just it's just what you are. and you know I incidentally the our love is here to stay has been nominated love is here to stay has been nominated for a Grammy award and so we'll know in a couple of weeks whether this CD with Bill Charlap who co-produced this CD

BC: and Kenny Washington

DG: and Kenny Washington and Peter Washington and there was a Grammy last year for the Jerome Kern which we'll talk about soon and I had the distinction and honor of collaborating with a book Tony Bennett um on stage and in the studio and on on stage and in the studios the book but through it's sort of a distillation of interviews over the years and I'm I'm sure Bill and your relationship with him at some point he reflects on Atoria and growing up in a home a beautiful home filled with love. Uh his he had two siblings, sister both older older sister and older brother and his father tragically died when he was uh Tony was 9 years old. But the inspiration from his mother and one day I just want you to listen to this track. It's about two minutes and 30 seconds long of Tony talking about the influence for all the things he produced that we're talking about musically in his life. It started in Atoria. Take it.

Tony Bennett (TB) [Clip]: Well, I I loved it and uh it's amazing the to answer your question on a quick reaction about what you're saying. I had a great friend by the name of Jack Wilson who was a good friend, very intelligent boy. And when I recorded "Because of You" and it became a million seller, he said, "Do you realize that for the rest of your life everyone in Atoria is going to know who Tony Bennett is?" Wow. And it was it hit me so such an amazing uh reaction to my popularity in those days and now it's become international and believe me when I tell you that I count my blessings on a daily basis. Although I'm rich or poor, I still feel sure I'm welcome as of flowers in May. It's just a little street where all friends meet and treat you in the same old way. It's not Bas Street. or even easy street. It's just a little street where old friends meet.

DG: You had such terrific role models, some very terrific role models in your early life. First among them, I think because your dad died when you were nine or 10, you had a terrific relationship with him in those early years. He he loved singing. He kind of inspired you perhaps in your absolutely you know. and but your mother was an extraordinary person and every time you talk about her I learn something new about her influence on you even today.

TB [Clip]: I love this so much and she she was I became the spoiled child because I was the youngest one so I I couldn't do anything wrong. It used to upset my brother and sister very much but She just adored me so much and she gave me an amazing amount of confidence about my personality and my spirit and uh she gave me a permanent enthusiasm my whole life.

DG: Tony Bennett, I'm growing up in Atoria. Uh and what a what a to be the beneficiary of all that love that someone who gives you a permanent enthusiasm about life and you find that when you interact with him, don't you? He's so spontaneous and genuine.

BC: Yes. I think it was Duke Ellington who said of him with all of his greatness, he's never needed a a larger hat size. And but when you the I wanted to talk about uh the sensational uh album that you and the trio and Reinie was involved in it too, the Jerome Kern CD. How did that all come about?

BC: Well, Tony had been telling me that he wanted to record something together. And um he had been a great fan of my trio with Kenny and Peter. And he had also loved hearing uh me and Reneie together in a duo piano situation. And he called me one afternoon. He said, "Um, you know, I'm thinking I'd like to make it all Jerome Kern." And I said, "Of course, that makes absolutely perfect sense. Kerna is, you know, I said this about a hundred times, but he's the angel at the top of the tree of popular songwriters in the sense that they all looked up to him. Uh, all the theater writers look to Jerome Kern because first of all, he was the first. He's born um 1885, whereas Gershwin and Rogers are right at the turn of the century, Irving, Berlin, a little bit before. But um Kerna is the first is one foot in Europe and one foot in America, but it's really American popular song. Uh really brand new if you think about how sophisticated things like think about the bridge of All the Things You Are or the bridge of almost any Karn Bridge, uh Pick Yourself Up or um Smoke Gets in Your Eyes or The Song is You. It's so sophisticated yet it's popular music. It's music for everybody. And uh you can hear that kind of craft. And you also get things like well a song from 1914 which says uh it's very important. Alan Bergman and Marilyn Bergman both mentioned to me that they thought lyrically this was a very important song and it's on the current album. Uh it's "They Didn't Believe Me".

DG: Oh yes.

BC: And when I told them how beautiful you were, they didn't believe me. And it's u a way of being so direct and so American within the lyric. But I'm digressing. Tony said uh to me, I'd like to make it Karna. And it's why it's perfect. Also, I grew up on my mother, Sandy Stewart, and Dick Heyman, who was is a great mentor to me and certainly the dean of jazz. pianists today. Um, they made an album of Jerome Karn songs. So, I grew up listening to that album and they were kind of in my DNA from my mentor and my mother. And how great to be able to make a record with Tony Bennett, Kenny Washington, Peter Washington, who are family to me, and my wife Reie Rosnes. Now, here's how it happened. Tony said, "I'd like to make it all Karna. Should we do it as a duo? just piano and voice or should we do it with your trio or should we do it with Rainey? And I said, "Well, depending on the song, I think that it would be very integrated to make it with all three. Um, and it would it wouldn't sound like it's um disperate. It would make sense." And it does make sense. It makes a very complete picture and it also makes the album unique. You know, one thing Tony wants to do is not repeat himself. He doesn't want to do the same thing and he wants to find a way to make it a little bit unique. And ultimately, uh, the goal is to make it definitive. That's a word he uses a lot. And there's a signature on things that he does. You know, one other digression. The very first time I played with him, Um, it was before him coming down, I think, to the Phil Woods gig. I think it was he had to make a recording for an end title of a film. I forget what it was. I think could it have been a Henry Mancini tune?

BC: No, it's "What a Difference A Day Makes".

DG: Okay.

BC: And so I went to Tony's apartment. This is the first time playing with him. I don't quite remember the chronology, but I went to his apartment. and we played What a Difference A Day Makes. And right away he put these signatures on the song which are his special signatures. The on the second half he sang, pardon my singing. He said, "What a difference a day makes. There's a rainbow before me." And right away I said, "Oh, wow. That's that that's that special thing." And at the end he went, "What a difference a day makes and that difference is you and it was I said wow because that's really you know that was getting the lyric and getting it across in that special original way and he said something that was interesting to me he was just being was just he him and me and he said you know when I hear a song I kind of hear it one way and one Once it's there, it's kind of cast in iron. He was just reflecting and he was not trying to say it has to be this way. And he said, "Why do you think that is?" He actually really wanted to to know what, you know, he was humble to it. And I said, "Well, it's cuz you're Tony Bennett. That's why that's why it is cuz the instinct is so intense. And um and of course the experience is intense and there's a vulnerability. I'll share one other thing with you because this kind of touched me. I remember this was one of those few I was never a member of Tony's group because I was really too busy to make the kind of permanent commitment that an artist of his stature needs. But we did do a couple of concerts with rhythm section, his rhythm section. Um, and I remember one of them was in a very large uh performance space large enough that it was like a baseball field and there were two giant screens where you could see close-ups. Now, they were wonderful for me because they were rather like teleprompterss. I could watch them and see, you know, not I'm I'm doing that with my ear anyway, but it was kind of cool to be able to see him spot on like that. Here's the thing. At one moment, I looked up there and he was like like that. It was really interior. And I thought to myself, "Oh, watch how reaching that deeply in, it's like a firework that goes pow and goes out to the back row and beyond the theater." It was kind of interesting. And I remember having that feeling at that moment saying, "There's a lesson for you. Don't uh sink to your essence. Watch how he's doing that and he did that.

DG: Wow. When you uh selected the songs, how did the process go for selecting the Jerome Curtain songs for the CD? Did you pick them or was it a joint?

BC: It was collaborative, but essentially it's how I pick anything that I play or how he picks anything that he sings. How do you choose the repertoire that you play? People ask me that sometimes. Cuz I like it. Now, there's a lot of reasons why you might like something. There might be various different things that make it attractive. It could be lyrically, it could be harmonically, melodically, rhythmically, all these things that inform it. Um, but there's a balance of things, you know. I think uh ultimately it was what do you want to sing Tony? Of course, because anything that he's going to choose of those songs are going to be correct and he's going to feel have some special feeling about them. And he had some wonderfully instinctual things within the arrangement. For instance, there's a track on there of I Won't Dance. Now, there's a really great definitive record of Lewis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald doing I Won't Dance with the Oscar Peterson Trio. You know, it's swinging like mad. And and I mean, that's a stroke of genius, that album. That was Norman Grant's idea. One of the few times a producer, well, a producer of Norman Grant's stature, who really had such great creativity and and loved his artists so much and they loved him. But, um, it was Norman's idea to put Lewis and Ella together. And what an idea, you know, it's perfect. Um, but that thing is swinging in a middle in a in a medium tempo, you know, it's just so swinging. And my guess is that Tony may have been on some level aware of that album without maybe it's was simply instinct, but he thought, I Won't Dance. He said, let's do it in three, four, so it's I won't dance. Don't ask me. D like that. So it's like Fred a stair, you know, who he is also a major influence. Um and things like that, you know, so it was simply collaborative all the way through. We got together uh I think once and he sang through the things. I played through them. I listened to what he was doing and listened to how he was shaping things. And then I went home and wrote the sketches wherever I needed to. And Most of the time we can keep things pretty open because you know uh Kenny and Peter are what Jerry Mulligan loved the most about his best rhythm sections which is that they think like composers and arrangers all the time. Everybody is an instant arranger and an instant composer besides playing their instrument u with virtuosity and originality and being informed by the entire history, all of those things too and the chemistry of course of the three of us, but everybody is being an instant arranger. So that's anyway, that's how we chose the material and then it was a matter of what really works great for uh me and Reinie. You know, the there are four two piano tracks on there. I think there are maybe three solos and uh the rest are with the trio, but the duo piano track are very special in that, you know, when Reinie and I play two pianos, sometimes people use the term, "Oh, are you going to be doing dueling pianos?" Well, first of all, there's no duel at all. It's simply music. It's all music all the time. We play two pianos as if we were playing piano and clarinet or piano and voice or piano, you know, it's really a matter. It's like a 12 string guitar. That's why we called our album Double Portrait. because it is the sum of both of us that becomes a new pianist. But with Tony, um it was wonderful because with Reinie, first of all, there's such clarity. You know, sometimes people don't know when they just listen. I mean, a musician or a pianist would know cuz they would realize unless you're using your nose, there's absolutely no way to play some of those things that are being played there. But there's such transparency and clarity in the way that we play two pianos together. um that you might not even uh realize that if you didn't know. Anyway, one of the great things in making that album was the day that we did the two piano things. And by the way, we we did this album, I think three sessions. There were maybe two with the trio uh which were mostly one one then there was one that was the second one was maybe we did one or two things and then we did the solo things which by the way we did fast. on the fly. And Tony was, you know, he he likes to keep things really extemporaneous. I remember right before we did "Just the Way You Look Tonight," we were going to play it in D major, and this is right before the red light went on. He said, "Let's take it up a half step." Red light someday. That was it. Well, all of those things are wonderful things and wonderful instinctual things that create an extemporaneous moment. I'll tell you another I was going to just tell you about the two pianos though was two pianos in the middle of the studio, no headphones. And Reie and I looked at each other at some point listened to the track Long Ago and Far Away. He sings just one moment and I knew that all I longed for long. He he he jumps for this note. I swear it sounds like it was edited or something, but it's not. He grabbed it like it was a on a on an organ or something. Bam. And Reie and I looked at each other went, you know, and it only happened once and it always only happens once. You know, the the joke that his sons have said to me is that um he never sings the same thing once, which is which is uh which is interesting because he forces himself to make it fresh and new each time. You know, Reie tells me a great story about when she first joined Wayne Sharter's group and she learned a song called Diana which they would do as a duet and uh it was just the keyboard and Wayne Sharter and he shaped it one night. It was completely Kivo completely out of tempo and he shaped it with all the contours and the various different things that he did and she said, "Okay, I got it. Now I know what to do tomorrow night. So the next night he played it equally definitively and completely different and you know that was of course the same lesson. Um but I just must call your attention to one other thing that was amazing. All the things you are which is the first track on the album. That song I'm going to get a slight bit technical. Because this was one of those instinctual moments where I'm glad I had my military training because at the end of All the Things You Are, the way that Kerna wrote it, it resolves it. Let's say I think we did it in the key of A major. So it would resolve to A major and then it would go to the the minor, the six chord, F sharp minor. Okay, I don't want to get too technical, but the way that the song works is that it needs to be built that way. Now, we got So, we did All the Things You Are with the verse. He sings the whole thing out of tempo. I'm accompanying him and then I started to play a solo. So, I play the first eight and the second eight and I look at him to come in at the bridge, which is a natural thing. You are the angel glow that lights a star. And he looks at me and he goes, Keep going. Okay. So, I'm going into the bridge. The dearest things I know are what you are. And I'm expecting someday. And I look at him and he goes, "Okay." So, I keep going. Someday my happy arms will hold you. And someday I'll know that moment divine when all the things you are are mine. And then I'm building up and I realize and it hit me. He's going to come in at the bridge. That means I'm a half step up in a song that's already profoundly chromatic. So, uh, I'm glad that I got lucky because it was a marvelous moment and a great instinctual moment on his part. I He wasn't thinking about this is a half step up. He doesn't think of music that way. Um, doesn't know that part of it. So, I mean, so what? It just means he doesn't have a slide rule. It's entirely instinctual. And at that moment, He did that and uh that means that we completed the song a half step up. It's so natural and then it's so profound at the end. It gives it a lift that you wouldn't notice. So when you listen to that track, be aware of that. And it's interesting how it even relates to the verse because the way that Kern wrote it, which is so marvelous, uh a lot of people play all that I want in all of this world is you. And that goes like this. All that I want in all of this world is you. And then you'll hear the song start and then go But Karna didn't do that. Kerna did something much hipper. He went to a completely different key region. So it goes like this and it becomes all that I want in all of this world is you. And it's you throw all the dominoes and all the dishes off the table. I really want you. It's that. And so here's what Kerna does. got the idea. So that relates to the key change that happens at the end. It's all instinct, but really something.

DG: just one of the uh you and Reinie I think played you mentioned two or three cuts. I think one of them was the title track, wasn't it? The Silver Lining.

BC: Yes.

DG: Could you talk a little bit about that?

BC: That was very interesting because um you know, Look for the Silver Lining which is a bit of an anthem and also almost a little bit marchlike I suppose in its original uh incarnation but Tony does it kind of as um a hymn to optimism you know and um there's something wonderful that he does within the time of it he sings Look for the silver lining. Whenever clouds appear in the blue, first of all, that's a change to the melody and a beautiful signature. Remember, somewhere the sun is shining. And so, the right thing to do is make it shine for you a heart. Now, he moved the time forward. Make it shine for you a heart. And we had to really say, "Oo, we got to move. We got to move. We got to move." And and It's not something that you would do naturally, but then of course I got it. We got it together and we said, "Oh, that's wonderful." I see. Again, it's that theatrical element.

DG: Jazz spontaneous.

BC: Spontaneous jazz in the moment element. It's Durant and Garland and Fred Estair and Lewis Armstrong and Billy Holiday and Sinatra. All of it at once. You know, it just instincts and just and humanity in there and and it's a beautiful thing.

DG: and you know it when I hear and we're going to listen to the two minutes and 30 seconds of it right now but you connected it to a memory I have of Tony uh ladies and short again to go directly to the gateway located on the ship. Please also be all guests on board. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, the gateway is located What about closed beverages? As Jimmy Duranti would say, don't nobody move. But you know, you you reminded me when you referred to uh The Silver Lining as being sort of a march anthem. When Tony was about nine or 10 years old, he had an uncle who was ahead of the library systems in Atoria. And he got Tony a gig to march next to Mayor Laguadia for the opening of the trioral bridge. And the song they sang was marching together. And I looked up the lyrics one time and it's just it's completely the same theme as The Silver Lining. that optimism.

BC: I like what Dick Dick Heyman said when he won the um NEA Jazz Masters Award uh similar to this and Dick is so wonderful with choosing the right word. And uh he said, "I'm so glad to be part of the procession."

DG: Oh, that's beautiful.

BC: It was a beautiful word because it said, "There's people in front of me. There's people behind behind me. There are people next to me and I will become the people in front of me. I was the people behind me and I am the people next to me and it's all people. It's beautiful. It is. It's I think this is the most informed listening experience I've had to track after listening to your eloquence on The Silver Lining and the thought and care and concern and artistry that went into producing it. So, I should mention Also in something like The Silver Lining, the choice of harmony. You know, it's very important. A harmony is not just a harmony for chord's sake. Um there are a a myriad different ways of harmonizing any popular song. It's choosing the one that becomes the right color for the painting. that supports the lyric, that supports the emotion of the lyric. And I think that is an very important piece. It's why the uh a piece of why those incredible collaborations with Bill Evans and Tony Bennett are so iconic. Um it's a piece of it. And the harmony from The Silver Lining, I must tell you, the song uh was in performed for me probably more than anyone else by one of my greatest mentors and perhaps the greatest musician I've ever known and that's Sir Richard Rodney Bennett who was u a genius a composer who uh was a student of Pierre Boules and also loved American popular songs and had one of the deepest gifts at harmonizing a song in the most prof way and I think that Richard's harmony is probably an underlying factor well in everything that I play for the rest of my life but particularly on that track.

DG: And now from the Grammy winning CD Tony Bennett Bill's trio Reie Rosness Jerome Karn's The Silver Lining.

(Music Interlude: "Look for the Silver Lining")

Tony Bennett (TB) [Vocal]: when a cloud appears. is in the blue. Remember somewhere the sun is shining. And so the right thing to do is make it shine for you. A heart full of joy and gladness. will always banish. Sadness and strife. So always look for the silver lining and try to find the sunny side of life.

BC: Life. The next Sereni playing a glorious solo. She was thinking like Stevie Wonder playing the harmonica. Seriously, Soulsville. Rainy.

Tony Bennett (TB) [Vocal]: a heart full of joy and gladness will always vanish. Sadness and strife. So always look for the silver. lining and try to find the sunny side of life.

DG: Wow. Magnificent. Magnificent. Magnificent. Grammy award. One thing I love in addition to this, I remember for having a discussion with Tony and mentioning because family is was so important to Tony's life. It represents several aspects of Tony's life. First of all, the music obviously Tony Bennett. The photography was uh Danny's daughter Kelsey.

BC: That's right.

DG: And in the back, uh there's a beautiful sketch Tony did of Jerome Kern. And Tony has three paintings at Smithsonian Museums. His Duke Ellington is at the National Portrait Gallery. His Ella Fitzgerald's at the Smithsonian's American Museum of of the National Museum of American History. And there's a beautiful uh oil of Central Park which is at the Renwick Gallery. He's been painting for as long. So we have his painting represented, his singing, his beautiful choice and artists and Kelsey his granddaughter taking the the pictures.

BC: There's me and Rey.

DG: That isn't that beautiful? I must.

BC: I must mention one other thing. Uh The Silver Lining. Um I must mention one other thing which is a a piece of trivia you might be interested in. There's Kenny Washington and Peter Washington in in the background there. Um you may notice for those of you who know that the drums are set up backwards and somehow Peter is playing left-handed like Earl May. Why? Well, the reason is the The way that this uh studio, this photography studio was set up was there were a bunch of giant mirrors. This was the Dementa Center in uh uh in New York City. And what you're seeing is Tony and me in the foreground, but also you're seeing the mirror image of Kenny who are act Kenny and Peter who are actually in front of us. And that's why uh I got a call from Ron Carter that went like this. Um, it's Ron Carter and I I don't understand why are the bass and drums backwards. I don't. So that's why.

DG: that's marvelous. Thank you. And there's a YouTube clip that I've seen a couple of times of Bill at you at with Tony last year at the Grammy Awards and that was quite an exciting moment. So you have another nomination coming up this uh February, ne next month. Well, it's nice to be recognized for doing something you care about. So, I wanted to do you have any final thoughts on your association with uh Tony Bennett and his place because we're running we have about another five minutes. I have a three-minute track I wanted to end with. But your thoughts on your association with him, a life lesson you've learned maybe from Tony Bennett, not necessarily a musical lesson. But he's informed so much of uh you know I remember if you're in a green room with Tony Bennett and there could be a president of the United States, a multi-billionaire, musicians gathered around him. Everyone becomes quiet because his voice speaking voice is very soft and they're leaning in to hear what he has to say. And so they're all gathered and some lady from the housekeeping will come in into the room to take away in the green room the trays of cheese and crackers and wine and this sort of thing. And this is what I've learned from watching him. As she walks by, he will look he's speaking to a former president and he will look up and nod and go like this and bring her into the conversation.

BC: Yes.

DG: Does um It's about connection. Everything is about connection.

BC: Look, I have some funny ideas. is about things. Maybe I don't really believe in death. I think that everyone that we love and even people we don't know, but especially when we love somebody in any way that we do, they become us and we become them. And we are all collective portals. of God's grace. And so I think that Tony Bennett values connection very deeply. And um I think that's why after all of these years there is that special feeling that we all still reveal from his singing and why his art remains and has remained vital for so long. So that's a piece.

DG: specifically stated and we we become the people we love and they become us and that's it. All of those sentiments are contained in a song Tony Bennett recorded in January of 1966. Ralph Burns did the chart was called Touch the Earth. The song was inspired by a book on Native Americans that came out in the mid60s, early 60s, I guess. And but it's not a very well-known Tony Bennett song. It's 2 minutes and 30 seconds long. But to me, it's it encapsulates all of his personal thor belief about life, all the things you've just articulated. But before hearing that, I just wish you listen to a moment of his speaking voice and an evening in July of 2015 at the Corkran Gallery in DC, George Washington University Corkran Gallery. I'd been charged with producing a ceremony where Tony and Susan were going to receive GW presidential medals for their work in Exploring the Arts and building the Franks Notra School of the Arts in Historia. And uh we're trying to work it with his schedule and so forth. And so we decided July uh 2015 he was coming to Washington for two soldout conferences with Lady Gaga at the Kennedy Center. So there was a a Thursday night, the concerts are Friday and Saturday. There was a Thursday night. Uh we brought in about 22 25 paintings of Tony. So we had a Tony Bennett art show. We had some very wonderful people from DC, the secretary of the Smithsonian, that whole community attending. And um my role that night was to introduce President Knap, who then read the ations presented the awards. We had students from the Duke Ellington School of the Arts playing. GW was a community sponsor along with the Kennedy Center of the Duke Ellington School. And at the end with all these accolades being bestowed upon Tony and this uh this oh and incidentally Lady Gaga and her mother and father came to the event. Her mother's an alum of GW. So that's the magic in that particular room. And of course the spotlight is on Tony Bennett. And at the end of the evening he was expected to make some few comment few comments and he got up and I don't want to spoiler alert to be there I get goosebumps thinking but the emotion in his voice we hear it in his singing and the emotion in his speaking voice conveys all of the sentiments Bill captured so beautifully so the evening of an evening in July of 2015 Tony Bennett.

Tony Bennett (TB) [Clip]: my wife's name is Susan Benadetto my name is Benedetto. It was Bob Hope when I first started out that gave me my big break in the entertainment world. He said, "What's your name?" I said, "Benadetto." He said, "Well, that's a little long." He said, "Let's call you Tony Bennett." And to this day, I love it, but I that he did that, but I regret because I love my name. Benedetto. In Italian, it's uh about the best name you could have because when it's transposed into English, it means the beloved. The name Benedetto means the beloved. And that's how I feel tonight. Thank you very much.

(Music Interlude: "Touch the Earth")

Tony Bennett (TB) [Vocal]: Lean down. Touch the earth. Reach up and Touch the sky. Reach out. Touch the hearts of strangers passing by. You'll find as long as you live, all you can can hold to is what you can give. So lean down and touch a child. Reach out, touch the sea. You'll find there's love to share. Where Wherever you may be, for nothing can match the beauty of touching the earth with love. January 1966, Tony Bennett touched the earth. Born in 196.

DG: Wow. And you have a another thought on Tony you wanted to mention.

BC: Well, actually, I have another thought, but it's not about Tony. Um, but it's about the name as Tony talked about the name Benedetto. I I think that there couldn't be a more perfect name that describes this man than Golden.

DG: Wow.

BC: You know, Tony talked to me many, many times about you and how much he loves you and how much he respects you and how deeply honored he feels to know you as a friend and how much he admires your love and intensity and breadth of knowledge and care about this music. Dick Golden is one of a kind and um it's an honor to know you, Dick.

DG: Thank you, Bill. Thank you very much. Thank you all. Thank Thank you for your attention, Bill. It's 7:00 tonight in here and Bill Charlap Trio. Thank you all. Thanks for listening to this episode of Jazz Cruise Conversations with Dick Golden and Bill Charlap. Check out Bill and his trio in collaboration with Tony Bennett and Diana Craw on their album Love is Here to Stay. And check out all those albums Bill and his trio recorded for Blue Note and Sony on Amazon, iTunes, or wherever you get your music. Join us on The Jazz Cruise 2020 and experience more than 250 hours of music performed by many of the greatest jazz musicians on the scene today. We sail from Miami to the Caribbean on the Celebrity Infiniti February 1st through February 8th. Among the performers sailing with us are Diane Reeves, Christian McBride, Arturo Sandival, Kurt Elling, Charles McFersonson, Artemis, Renee Marie, John Pitzerelli, Katherine Russell, Steve Terrell, John Clayton, and dozens more. You can Experience for yourself why it's called the greatest jazz festival at sea. Learn more at thejazzcruise.com. That'sthejazzcruise.com. You can also follow us on Facebook and Twitter. Special thanks to Michael Lazerof, Joey Fairchild, Brian Roco, Dick Golden, and the production team of Entertainment Cruise Productions for their help with this session. Our theme music is Marcus Miller's highlight from his album Aphrodesia. And join us next week as we listen to a conversation with keyboardist Robert Glasper recorded during Blue Note at Sea 2019.