Oscar Peterson's Poem to Ella: A Look at Their Deep, Loving Friendship - w/Cecile McLorin Salvant, Sullivan Fortner & Kelly Peterson

110: Remembering Ella Fitzgerald & Oscar Peterson w/Cecile McLorin Salvant, Sullivan Fortner & Kelly Peterson

This episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations, hosted by Lee Mergner, is drawn from a "Jazz on Film" session on the Journey of Jazz Cruise. The session focuses on the lives, careers, and close relationship of jazz titans Ella Fitzgerald and Oscar Peterson. The episode includes the reading of a poem Oscar Peterson wrote about Ella, audio excerpts from Oscar Peterson's 1980 BBC television show appearance with Ella, and a post-screening discussion featuring contemporary artists and Oscar's widow.

Key Takeaways

• Content Overview: The session featured clips of Ella Fitzgerald, including the earliest known film footage of her from 1957, and an excerpt from her 1980 appearance on Oscar Peterson’s BBC television show.
• Oscar Peterson's Dedication: The episode includes the reading of a poem Oscar Peterson wrote about Ella Fitzgerald, read by Christian McBride, which emphasizes her unique talent, stating she sings "with a voice quite beyond belief."
• The 1981 Interview and Performances: The featured audio comes from Oscar Peterson's television show appearance with Ella, recorded around 1981 when Ella was 64 years old,. During this segment, Ella and Oscar perform "Mellow Tone," "Baby Won't You Please Come Home," and the Vincent Youmans tune, "More Than You Know",,,.
• Ella's Early Career: Ella Fitzgerald initially wanted to be a dancer. She began singing after winning an amateur contest in Yonkers by trying to sing like Connie Boswell and performing "The Object of My Affection," earning the first prize of $12.50,. She joined the Chick Webb Orchestra after an unsuccessful attempt to join Fletcher Henderson’s band, who deemed her "real skinny" and "not the glamour type",.
• The Song Books: Oscar Peterson described her work on the Song Books as an "almost monumental project". Ella noted that the first one, the Cole Porter Song Book, was completed in only about three weeks,. Cécile McLorin Salvant views this project as a foundational part of American music history, archiving the standards and setting Ella as a "historic Mount Rushmore figure."
• The Accompanist's Role: Pianist Sullivan Fortner affirmed Oscar Peterson's observation that Ella's singing creates a "harmonic need" within the accompanist, thus making the players better. For an accompanist playing with a singer, Fortner stresses that the lyric and the message behind the song must be the priority over the melody, tone, or the piano player's input,.
• Ella and Oscar's Relationship: Kelly Peterson, Oscar’s widow, described the relationship between Ella and Oscar as a deep, loving friendship,. She recounted the story of Oscar’s elaborate fake ink spill prank on Ella's new white fur coat. Kelly also shared a moving anecdote about Oscar wearing the heavy gold lion pendant (his "medal" gifted by Ella) on the morning he instinctively felt she had died.
• Vocal Evolution: When comparing early and later clips of Ella's performances, Cécile McLorin Salvant noted that while her voice quality changed (becoming deeper with a wider vibrato, often singing in lower keys), her fundamental concepts remained "spot-on".
• Preferred Configuration: Cécile McLorin Salvant shared her preference for the quartet configuration when performing, a

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruises Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode is from the Jazz on film series that I hosted on Journey of Jazz. During these sessions, I show some film and video clips about a jazz legend and then interview one or more of our artists about that subject. During this session, I showed clips of Ella Fitzgerald, including the earliest known film footage of her from 1957, as well as an excerpt of her appearance much later in 1980 on a BBC television show hosted by Oscar Peterson. For the post-screening talk about Ella and Oscar, I asked Cecil McLaren Salvant, Sullivan Fortner, and Kelly Peterson, Oscar's widow, to speak about these two greats. In this episode, I've included the reading of a poem Oscar wrote about Ella, the audio from Oscar's TV show, as well as our post-screening discussion. I hope you enjoy it.

Christian McBride (Reading Oscar Peterson's Poem): To touch a cloud, to live a dream, to have life flow like a silvery stream. To ride the wind or grow like a leaf, to sing with a voice quite beyond belief. To use time like a magic wand, echoing things of which we are fond. To invoke a new memories of old past, creating new visions that will ever last. To sing of love and its hurtful pains. To paint a picture that forever hangs in our hearts, in our souls, and our very beings. This is what Ella Fitzgerald means.

Oscar Peterson: My guest tonight is a woman that really needs no introduction, certainly not in the music world, because she is the epitome of everything musical and the epitome of everything creative. I have long had the pleasure of appearing with her on concerts, recordings, and television shows like this one for many years, and I'm more than pleased and happy and really honored to have as our special guest tonight, Miss Ella Fitzgerald. Thank you.

(Music/Singing: "Mellow Tone" Begins)

Ella Fitzgerald: That's the first one. What's up?

Ella Fitzgerald: Mellow tune. Little and a little Ellie to the start. Mellow tone in a me at a saxophone to that mellow tone. You play it sweet. You play it hot. You play it with a beat. Give it everything you've got. When you hear that mellow tone from an old you will start to shout. What's it all about? Blow on and on. Blow on and on from that old drum. Bing on the tone bech. Bobby open up. Are you going to take one? Yeah. Uh-huh. Thank you. Uh-huh. Get it. Get it. Get it. I'm ready. Boo in a melode pop. Beat it up. They play it hot. Give it everything they got. And as long. What do you say when you hear them? Thank you.

Ella Fitzgerald: Thank you.

Oscar Peterson: Beautiful. Thank you so much. Well, this is this is really a special occasion for me because we have done this many times in backstage in many theaters.

Ella Fitzgerald: right.

Oscar Peterson: on the road where we've gone over tunes and uh talked about tunes and tried tunes but it's uh it's really nice to sort of sit down and sing and play some of the tunes that really mean something to both of us. I think uh I have a tune that I think that would fit really well here. It's sort of a blues thing and yet it isn't Baby Won't You Please Come Home. If I were to give you say about four bars, you think you'd like to try?

Ella Fitzgerald: a few. You'll try.

Oscar Peterson: Yeah, do try.

Ella Fitzgerald: This is a blues, you know. I'm not a blues.

Oscar Peterson: I know. I know. My heart's bleeding.

Ella Fitzgerald: So is mine when I get through. This always makes me think of Jimmy Russian. This song. Come on. Baby, won't you please come home? Cuz your mama's all alone. I have tried in vain, never no more. to call your name. When you left, you broke my heart. But that will never keep us aart. Every hour in the day, you can hear your m. Come on home, baby. Baby, won't you come on home? Won't you come on home? Bring it on home to mama. Oh, I feel so blue. Mama misses you. Ain't nothing I wouldn't do to have your back home for every hour. And Every day you can hear me say, "Baby, come on." Oh, mama. Bring it. Bring it. Come on. Bring it. Come on. Come on. Be gone. Oh. Yeah. Can't see your moves, right? Can't see your moves, dude. That's tough.

Ella Fitzgerald: Thank you.

Oscar Peterson: You know, I Before we go into the next tune, I have to say that more than anyone else, I think you really epitomize the total picture of what a vocalist should be. And I can say this because I've played for most or many of the female vocalists. And there is something that you bring to a song that is so totally different. Really, it is that different the way you approach a song. the quality of the voice, etc. I don't want to embarrass you by going on this other than to say that I wonder many times now that I've realized the almost monumental project you did where you did all of those song books. First of all, how long did it take you to do them, would you say?

Ella Fitzgerald: Well, the you know our manager.

Oscar Peterson: Yes, I do.

Ella Fitzgerald: I do. Normie.

Oscar Peterson: Normie.

Ella Fitzgerald: Well, we um I think the first one we did, the co-porter was done about three weeks. That's a that's pretty fast that time.

Oscar Peterson: but it's still a lot of work because it's not only obviously music but the reading of the lyric. you and I often wonder. when I look at that recorded work whether when you first started. when you started with the orchestra chick web whether in any way you envisioned ever doing anything like this? Did you ever think about that?

Ella Fitzgerald: No.

Oscar Peterson: You never thought you'd ever get to doing Vincent Youmans Jimmy Mchugh.

Ella Fitzgerald: Well, I only I never thought I'd do any this uh Oscar because I really didn't think I was going to be a singer. I was going to be a dancer.

Oscar Peterson: Let's do the next tune.

Ella Fitzgerald: That's a fact.

Oscar Peterson: You were really serious about being a dancer?

Ella Fitzgerald: I really wanted to be a dancer. I made a bet with some girlfriends of mine and we wanted to go on an amateur contest and we just signed our names to you know you know like you bet each other and say I bet you won't sign this card and we all sign the card. I live in Yonkers who's going to come to a little old country town and you know call and send a card and say come up your your card uh fell in the thing right. and mine was called so I had to go and when I saw all those lights out there and uh there's no way in the world I was going to dance. The man said, "Well, do something. You're out here." So, I tried to sing like uh Miss Connie Boswell and uh we had a record at home of first thing in the object of my affection and I tried to sing like her and I won first prize. The object of my affection to roy Rosie ready. Rosie ready said that girl can sing. got the first prize $12.50.

Oscar Peterson: Yeah, but 12.50 was a lot of money then compared to. 12.50. That's right. Did you decide make up your mind then to really continue?

Ella Fitzgerald: Well, I went from amateur hour to amateur hour because they promised me a week.

Oscar Peterson: Oh, I see.

Ella Fitzgerald: I never got the week and and I that that convinced me that uh I guess I wanted to be a singer.

Oscar Peterson: How did you end up getting with the band? I don't the Chick Webb orchestra.

Ella Fitzgerald: Well, first uh we ran into um Benny Carter one day saw me and he took me to Fletcher Henderson and Fletcher Henderson looked at me and I was real skinny and um he looked at me and he says uh he heard me but uh I don't think I was the glamour type. So that wasn't it didn't work. And um somebody took me to Barney took me to Chick Web and he said, "I got a little girl out here. I want you to hear." And he said, "I didn't want a girl singing. I don't need a girl singing." And uh then they were going to play Yale University. And he said, "Well, okay. We'll take her along and if she they like her up there, we'll user. So, uh, they had to like me. I only had three songs and those are three I won the amateur contest with. And that's how I became one.

Oscar Peterson: That's fantastic.

Ella Fitzgerald: Yeah.

Oscar Peterson: We'll have to trace this a little farther on. There is a tune that, you know, I always bug you to do whenever we most of the time when we do concerts, the Vincent Youmans tune.

Ella Fitzgerald: Yeah.

Oscar Peterson: And I love it, I think, more than almost anything he's ever written. Would you do more than you know for me?

Ella Fitzgerald: I'll try Oscar. I got a little frog and he he.

Oscar Peterson: Let him sing, too. Hey Sam, you heard Kermit?

Ella Fitzgerald: All right. He'll probably come out right on a with a real pretty note. No, no, you are here or yonder. Whether you are false or true, Whether you remain or wonder, I'm growing fonder of you. Even though your friends forsake you, even though you don't succeed, wouldn't I be glad to take you. Give you the break. You need more than you know. More. Man of my heart. I love you so. Lately I find you're on my mind more than you know. Whe you're right, whe you're wrong, man of My heart I'll string along. You need me so more than you will ever know. Loving you the way that I do. There's nothing I can do about it. Loving may be all I can give, but honey, I can't live without it. Oh, how I' cry. Oh, how I' cry if you grew tired and said goodbye more than I more than you ever ever. No, more than you ever knew. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Oscar Peterson: I I'm going to I'm going to explain something to you that perhaps may or whatever they say uh no one has ever explained to you because I think somebody should say it to you. Uh you looked sort of a scance when I said the quality of the voice that you bring to this sort of thing. Um when as a an accompanist and I'm a I'm a reasonably prolific player in this way here is that kind of quality. It it the reaction that it has is that it creates to me and I think certainly Neils would say the same thing uh a harmonic need within us. So if you if you're singing simply in instead of playing like that you would add to it like. So you actually make better players out of all of us.

Ella Fitzgerald: Thank you.

Oscar Peterson: Wasn't that great? Oh man.

Lee Mergner: And uh to talk about it uh I know the program has a seal, but we have two other friends to help us uh talk about Ella and Oscar. Please welcome Cecil McLaren Salvant, Kelly Peterson, and Sullivan Forner. Don't lose your s*** there. We put Sully right next to the piano, but I don't know if you saw our conversation before, we made him do Oscar.

Sullivan Fortner: It was It was pretty pretty good.

Lee Mergner: Uh Well, Cecile. Uh oh. Oh, where are you going?

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Oh, put your stuff. Yeah, I know.

Lee Mergner: So, Seal, when was the first time you heard Ella? What was it? And what kind of impact did it have on you? Do you remember?

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Uh, I really want to answer that accurately. Um,

Lee Mergner: you don't have to. They They'll never know the difference.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Well, I'll know. I'll know. I It probably in the womb, honestly. My My mom listened to a lot of of Ella, so I don't know. As as a as a little baby. Um, yeah. I really don't know. She's just always been there, you know.

Lee Mergner: Well, one of the amazing things is, you know, her repertoire. Oh my, you know, like what songs didn't she do, right? You know, and and the great American song book. I don't know if it would be the great if she didn't do all those song books, you know, uh, and she also loved to do pop tunes. Talk a bit about, you know, how she chose material and what what what her choices were.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Well, to me, I I feel like she set she set a sort of standard. I mean, and she sort of set what the standards were in a way especially with the song book projects which you know I think probably it's it was so interesting hearing her talk about it and so glad that he asked her about it. You know, for her it's like this three-week kind of grueling work process but then it became this foundational part of like history of American music. um And I think it sort of set her apart and set her as the titan that she is that you know we can go to her. I mean I as a young singer when I started um I learned all those standards through her versions because she sings also with such a clarity that it's so good if you're if you're like a young student learning. You can just go through the whole Cole Porter song book. You can go through everything that she's done Gershwin. Rogers. yeah and it was yeah she I'm trying to I'm sure there's like a classical pianist that I'm that is escaping me that did like a similar like I'm going to do all of Bach or I'm going to do all and it's just all of Beethoven. Yeah. And it's it's uh it ends up making you kind of this historic Mount Rushmore figure because it's like okay we can you've archived this for us in a way. I mean and it's and it's musical and creative and incredible. Um yeah I I spent many years just listening to those songs. books. But actually, I'll stop talking after this. I'm sorry.

Lee Mergner: That's what we're here for.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Okay. There's a live record that she did that came out maybe five years ago, and that's my favorite record of hers.

Lee Mergner: Live in Paris, live somewhere.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: I don't remember.

Sullivan Fortner: I don't know.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: But it's one where she's like, she sings Gone with the Wind. She doesn't know the lyrics. She asks the audience. She's like, "Do you guys want something fast or something slow? It's Berlin."

Lee Mergner: Berlin. That's it.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: And they're like, "We want something sexy." And she's making jokes and she's just so loose and free. And I I that's my favorite Ella is is hearing her live and hearing her react and her sense of humor.

Lee Mergner: Yeah. Well, I was just going to say that's two other things. One is her sense of humor and of course many people know she loved she really wanted to be a dancer and you know she loved to dance. Uh but her sense of humor that comes out in that doing the Louis Armstrong song and making up lyrics and stuff. Yeah. Uh the the uh there's a great book by Judith Tick, a biography of her recently and it talks about the great the song books and how it was not a slam dunk, you know. It was like it was everyone was like, I don't know about this, you know, which is funny to think now. Now, talk about their relationship. Of course, we heard that poem that was Christian McBride. I'm sure you recognize that voice, but um talk a bit about their relationship, Ella and Oscar. He I think it's pretty apparent when you watch the the interview that Oscar did with her how much he loved her and she loved him and they they had such a deep deep friendship and love for each other. I think perhaps partly born out of the the music and their admiration for each other musically, but then they just um They became really close friends through it all because they're the kind of people that like to be together. And I think actually all the musicians on Jazz the Philarmonic just adored Ella. She was they were protective of her and they um just honored her and loved her because she s she was such a gentle soul, but also a lot of fun. And they would kid around and I mean they'd play pranks on her and.

Kelly Peterson: can you remember remember any of the good good pranks they didn't I've heard some of the other ones but.

Lee Mergner: the uh wrapped naked somebody wrapped in who was naked.

Kelly Peterson: it was Oscar.

Lee Mergner: cellophane or something.

Kelly Peterson: it was Oscar the dry cleaning bag only in his underwear he and somebody else I can't remember who his you know partner in crime was but wrapped in just put cut holes for their arms and they stood in the wings and they were piouetting and Alice trying to sing with a straight face. So, so uh.

Lee Mergner: No, they had their underwear on.

Kelly Peterson: They had their underwear. Okay. They had their underwear on.

Lee Mergner: PG. Yeah. Yeah. So, but of course persspiring like crazy in the plastic, too. So, um but one of the stories that Oscar loved to tell about teasing Ella was, um Norman had bought her this beautiful I don't know what for was man or some whatever it was. It was white fur coat and they were and Oscar had been somewhere at a you know prank shop and he he got one of those ink bottles with this ink blood spill.

Lee Mergner: Oh yeah.

Kelly Peterson: And and he went in her dressing room while she was going on for her set and he had his fountain pen and the bottle of ink and some stationary. said, "Do you mind if I sit in here and just write my letters?" And she said, "Okay, Oscar, but but just be careful of my coat. Be careful of my coat." He said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, Fitz. It's okay. It's okay." When she came off stage, he had set up the fake ink spill. and he had his head down on the table and was, you know, crying and and she came in and she looked at her coat and she said and he said, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And he was crying and she said, Oh no. And she start she was starting to cry, but she also didn't want him to feel bad. So she's saying, "It's okay, Oscar. Oh my coat. It's okay, Oscar. Oh my go."

Lee Mergner: And then he said, "It's fake." With her with her hanky. And.

Kelly Peterson: he talked about all the codes she would give with her hanky.

Lee Mergner: Oh. Oh. Say more about that.

Kelly Peterson: No, I don't I don't remember. But he wrote about I'll have to find it and share it with you. But it was like if she did this with her hanky, she didn't like what you were doing. If she did this, she wanted you to go faster. If she did this, she wanted you to slow down or be quiet or more more bass or more drums or whatever. But it was all these. And if she wiped her brow a certain way, it was like, you are in trouble.

Lee Mergner: Take note. Yeah. You need a hanky.

Sullivan Fortner: I want a hanky.

Lee Mergner: You need a hanky. She'd be hitting me most of the time. Well, Sullivan, talk a bit about you. Of course, you've worked with Cecil, but you've worked with a lot of great singers, DD included, about working with these people. Could you could you could you identify with some of the things Oscar was saying about accompanying?

Sullivan Fortner: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, sometimes you you work with Well, any good singer will make you know, will will uh will will definitely create a a a beautiful scenario or maybe sometimes not so beautiful scenario for a piano player. Um, but I've been fortunate to to play with really really good singers that have trained me and um every time I play with her in particular, you know, it's always a lesson, you know, something to learn or something to think about, you know. Um, yeah, but it was it was really interesting to watch. the dynamic between them, you know, because he's not only just listening to her, but he's also watching her. And that's something that I tell a lot of my students, you know, if you have the abilities to use all as many senses as you can, use as many senses as you can when you're playing music. It's not just your ears, but it's also your eyes. It's also in how you how it feels in the hands. It's also about, you know, if you can, some people have the ability to taste it or to smell it, you know what I mean? To put yourself in that environment, you know, and you see that in their dynamic particularly, you know, they have such a rapport that they can just look at each other and do like these little signals or like do something with their eyes and it's like, okay, that sends a message to me that means I have to do something. You know what I mean? Or that means that I'm doing something right or that I'm doing something wrong, you know?

Lee Mergner: Did he play Did you do you notice him playing somehow differently than he usually because he could play a lot of different ways? He's always Oscar.

Sullivan Fortner: He's he's he's always playing Oscar Peterson. It's like from the first note, you know exactly who it is. Um but I think if anything's being tailored, it is in the way he shapes his phrases. It's in the way that he um uses his harmonies, you know? I mean, Ella kind of sings. Ella will sing the melody, but then she'll kind of sing around it and she'll have like little alternate melodies that sometimes she'll put that that's what Oscar was saying. She'll sometimes have alternate melodies that you would sing and that forces a different type of harmonic sensibility and to to to blend in with that to support her harmonies and her choices is really something that I think that that's what he's talking about. It's something I try to do with her cuz sometimes she'll she'll kind of veer off and like not in a bad way but she'll she'll she'll veer off the the melody that we're used to we're used to hearing and she'll create different options maybe sometimes she'll go to a different part of the form or she'll, you know, she's like, "Okay, we're supposed to be at the bridge. She'll sing the A section again." You know what I mean? Just things like that. And as piano players, we always have to adjust to the situation or scenario that we're in. I hope that answers.

Lee Mergner: I know. I'm starting to feel like we're in the newlywet game, you know, now. And Cecile,

Sullivan Fortner: piano player faster. And did you get the answer right?

Lee Mergner: Yeah. Well, one of the things interesting the way we did this and it wasn't really purposeful was early Ella and very later Ella, right? Um, how how do how do you see her voice and her concept changing as she got older? Do you think it did?

Cécile McLorin Salvant: I mean, the quality of the voice has changed. It's still very clear, but um I mean we We all heard, I'm sure, that the VBR is is a little bit wider. It's a little bit heftier. Um, the voice is deeper. The keys are the songs are in lower keys, but I feel like there's still I mean, it's still pretty much her spot-on. Um, I think I think the concepts are still the same. I mean, I don't know. Would you agree?

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah.

Lee Mergner: Yeah. Um,

Sullivan Fortner: same Yeah.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Which is actually incredible. I mean, that's beautiful. How many years apart was that?

Lee Mergner: 58 to 81.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Oh, yeah. 23. Yeah. 23 years.

Sullivan Fortner: 23.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: And it's wild. I mean, there's a lot of things that are wild. The the music is wild to hear hear those two phases of life, but also to still get along. and still be able to play with someone, you know, 30 years later and have that rapport. That's so special. Um, and it's rare, you know, and it's and it's a beautiful beautiful thing to to get older with someone like that and see them, you know, through their career because, you know, they were in totally different places in their careers and in their you in their community in that first video. So, it's it's really really.

Lee Mergner: Yeah. One interesting bridge uh is Ray Brown, you know, he was in the early one. It was in No, it was Neil's the second.

Kelly Peterson: Neils in the second one, but but there was Ray Brown who was of course with Oscar forever. Um, and then with Ella.

Lee Mergner: and with Ella, of course, his his marriage.

Kelly Peterson: So, I there's a story that you made me think of when you were talking about the longevity of that relationship that's actually um I think it it explains some of the closeness between them and it was um Oscar was in the studio in Toronto for two days making a recording and the first day was great came you know he had a great time came back home and then the next morning when he was getting dressed he's I think I told you this story right he he said to me Cal um Ella had given him this pendant of a of a lion this heavy heavy gold pendant that he always called his metal. And so he said, "I feel like I need to wear my medal today. Would you go get it for me, please?" So I said, "Okay." And I left the room. And when I came back in, the phone had just rung and it was Norman Grans calling Oscar. And all Norman said was, "She's gone. She's gone." Ella had died. And it was the day Ella died. And Oscar just must have had that sense. And I I think that I mean of all the anecdotes and all the stories and all the videos and and things we can see that captures the significance of that relationship.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Been ready to cry. Sorry.

Kelly Peterson: But yeah, I it was quite moving and he wore that pendant on at every concert for the next year.

Lee Mergner: You want to take some questions? Sure. Sure. Uh, I have to find uh.

Sullivan Fortner: Oh, no. No, no, mic. Oh, Mike can probably.

Lee Mergner: theater theater voices. Yeah. Project.

Audience Member: I'm holding. Okay. This is for Sullivan. Um, I know. Can you describe the difference between you playing solo piano or playing with a group and being an accompanist?

Sullivan Fortner: Um, Well, for me it's not really that much of a difference. It's kind of the same kind of sensibility. Um, I kind of learned playing with Roy Harrove um, all those years it was just like for him playing with a horn player shouldn't be any different than when you play with a singer cuz he's trying to play like a singer. You know what I mean? And most trumpet players and most saxophone players are trying to sing through their instruments anyway. So, I try to carry that type of sensibility. However, it's a little easier with with singers because they have a lyric, you know, and playing with her kind of taught me that they're these priorities. She, you know, you have the lyric that kind of that kind of trumps everything. You know what I mean? And then everything that you kind of add to that can either become an addition or a distraction, you know? So, you have a lyric and then you have a melody which can enhance the lyric. Sometimes a good melody enhances a lyric or takes away from it, right? And if a bad a bad melody would distract from the lyric, you know, then you have the tambber, the tone of the voice that's singing the lyric. So that can add a distraction. And then all the way at the bottom, you have the piano player doing all kinds of stuff underneath it. You know, so you know, for me, I'm I'm Yeah, I'm saying all that to say, you know, for me, my priority has to be in the lyric and the message behind the song in order to accompany say a singer as opposed to a horn player who doesn't have lyrics. It's just just notes and rhythm, you know, but to still try to evoke that same type of emotion, you know. So that's that's kind of how I, you know, and solo piano playing is no negotiation. You you just you just the only thing you negotiate with is the instrument and how you want to how you can play or how you want to play. But whenever you're accompanying someone that's always that partnership and then you have the priorities and all the things that you know.

Lee Mergner: Cecil, you obviously play in this duo setting. When you play with a band, it is your do you have a favorite configuration? The usual classic piano trio or the horns or what what's what do you?

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Yeah, I love I love.

Lee Mergner: Oh, I can remember seeing you with a larger band with uh Alexa and.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Yes. That was like a sex ted, I think. Right. or maybe a septit. I love I love a a good old piano trio. It's nice because you can I mean the the possibilities are are endless. Yeah. Piano, bass, and drums. Um there's just so many possibilities with that. It can be and and it's just such a versatile group. You can really pull out a lot of things. Um and a lot of different repertoire in a way that it's it can be a little bit more more uh difficult. And it's also the sweet spot of like with a trio, you could still be totally loose and free in the same way that you could be in a duo setting. You could I mean, it's just it's just four of us sort of. Yes. Intimate. Um I love singing with a a bigger band, a big band. I love it. I love singing with an orchestra, but now we're we're a little bit more on, you know, on a on the rails. We have to we can't veer off too much now. So, yeah, it it depends. I mean, I I like the variety, but I think I I have a tendency to go back to the to the quartet configuration.

Lee Mergner: Is there other question? Give me a second. We put all. we put all these on line on Jazz Cruise Conversations podcast. I'm coming to you.

Audience Member: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was just curious. I came in a little bit late. When was that interview done? And how old was Oscar? And how old?

Lee Mergner: 1981.

Audience Member: How old was she at that time? I don't have an internet to check it.

Kelly Peterson: 64.

Audience Member: 64. And then how can we rewatch this? How is there a way?

Lee Mergner: Yeah. Uh. yeah, that was pulled from a series called Jazz Icons. Um it may be online pirated in some way. The the interview is from my archives.

Audience Member: Oh. Oh, that that part. Yeah. Sorry.

Lee Mergner: Yeah. It's in uh Kelly's house. Have to Oh, the funny thing is we showed it. We showed it on Jazz Cruise, right? And it had the time stamp, right?

Audience Member: Oh, that was the one with Ray. Yeah. Yeah. It had the time stamp and and commercial breaks.

Lee Mergner: Commercial breaks, right? Right. I forgot to edit it. No, no, but there were no commercials. Oh, but no, it would have been better to see the commercial.

Audience Member: I wanted to see the commercials. Yeah. But.

Lee Mergner: one one more. again. and One more question. Okay, give him that. Give him that. This is it.

Audience Member: I got a good last one. So, prior to her doing Louisie Armstrong, uh, she did another singer. Am I right in thinking that was Nelly Lecher?

Lee Mergner: It was Rose Murphy. Okay.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Rose Murphy, who was a singer and pianist who was the Chi-Chi Girl. She did a song called Button Up Your Overcoat.

Lee Mergner: And she did I Can't Give You Anything But Love. Yeah. Rose Murphy, great singer. Very, very peculiar, small voice. and often sang chi chi ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch ch chi. kind of Blossom Deirish. No.

Cécile McLorin Salvant: Yeah, she I'm sure Blossom Deerry heard her and loved her. Yeah. And and was inspired by her, but she was she was definitely before Blossom Deerry. Yeah, I would say.

Lee Mergner: Well, please join me in thanking Sullivan Forner, Silant, Kelly Peterson. Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that insight. from Cecilele, Sullivan, and Kelly. Now, both Cecilele and Sullivan will be sailing on Christian McBride's World at Sea starting on January 20th. During McBride's World at Sea, Christian will presenting guest vocalists, including Cecile, as well as Lety, Angelique Kijjo, Samar Joy, Jose, and Melissa Walker. And you'll hear Christian with his various ensembles, including his big band, Inside Straight, Ursa Major, and the Remembering Ray Brown Project with Benny Green and Gregory Hutchinson. providing the laughs. In addition to our comedian and residents, Alonzo Bodden is his friend, the comic giant George Wallace. Go to McBridesworldatsea.com to learn more. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song High Life on his album Aphrodisio and Blue Note. And thanks to the sound engineer Matt and video production team of Megan and Nate for their help with this and the other Jazz on film sessions. Next week, we'll feature a conversation with Marcus Miller and Gregory Porter, co-hosts of the Journey of Jazz Cruise. Thanks.