Closer Than A Brother
Conversations about male friendship
Closer Than A Brother
Intro
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In this episode, Dustin and Scott explore why a podcast about male friendships is necessary
In this season life, what does it look like to start new friendships? And what does it look like to grow deeper in friendships when you don't have a lot of time, when you don't have a lot of margin? And I think what I've been realizing, and something I really want to kind of wrestle with here on the show, is how do we push back against cultural norms that really make it in some ways feel inappropriate to dive back into a friendship deeply when you haven't seen someone in a month? Or how do we kind of uh come as followers of Jesus with this expectation that we can really bear ourselves with one another? You're listening to Closer Than a Brother, a podcast exploring how friendship with Jesus can empower men to cultivate lasting, meaningful, and life-giving friendships with one another. We are your hosts, Scott Quedon and Dustin Radcliffe. Hey Scott. Hey Dustin. We're doing it. We are first episode of Closer Than a Brother. This has been a brainchild of ours for a while. It's been a long road. It has been, but I'm I'm excited. We're we're here. So let's jump into it. Scott, tell us a little bit about who you are, what we're doing here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So Yeah, I'm Scott Quedon. I grew up in a family of four kids. I have all sisters. I'm the third. And um, when my family moved um to Northern Ireland back when I was young, it was really the the first time I realized, oh, okay, this there's something else going on in life. And my life took a huge uh hit in terms of it was a a change of um country, it was a change of culture, it was a change of friends, it was a change of everything. Yeah. And I was five. And so I think it it was at that point that I started realizing that it's really hard to make friends when you're new somewhere. And then my family moved back a couple of years later, moved to St. Louis, that's where I grew up most of the years from second grade to 12th grade, and had a couple of good friends, one in particular, just a good, solid, best friend type. And so getting into college, um, oh, I should say I was raised in a in a church-going family, but it wasn't until I was in college that I realized, oh, there is something more than just going to church about God and Jesus. And so I gave my life to Jesus at that point as a freshman in college. Yeah. And it was really through a bunch of friends who had decided that they were gonna move on to a dorm floor and talk to people on that dorm floor about a relationship with Christ. And so I was one of those people that they kept coming back to and just like, hey, what do you what do you think about Jesus? Like I I just, you know, he's a great guy.
SPEAKER_00It's okay, answer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And uh, but I had no no depth of understanding of who Jesus was in my life. He was just a guy.
SPEAKER_00Didn't know what a great guy was, huh?
SPEAKER_04No, no. Um God really was more like a Santa Claus to me. He was he was the provider of good things, but not to be known personally, yeah. And it was really in that in that time that I came to know God in a personal way. Through those relationships, through those relationships, yeah. And so then coming out of college, I had the opportunity to join a mission organization Campus Crusade for Christ back then. Now it's crew. Um so I went um with crew and decided to go overseas. So I went uh over to Germany for a year, and that's where I met my wife Jane, and she was over teaching at the Black Forest Academy in Germany, and we met and instantly fell into friendship. And so we became good friends and friend zone. Friend zone, yeah. From the very beginning, I told her that I'm done with women um trying to have all these dating relationships, and I told God, I just want you to tell me who the next one, who the one you want me to marry is, and I'll do it. And uh so I told her on our first time together. It's like, I'm just treating all women like I treat my sisters because I knew how to treat sisters because I have three of them, and so I was like, Yeah, I'm just that's that's what and she was like, Oh, well, okay then. And so we just developed a really good friendship, and she moved back to America three months later, and um we said goodbye, and like that was that, but that wasn't that, and two months later I found myself like really missing her, like missing her more than ever sisters. Missing her more than I missed my sisters, and it what's really interesting is that uh right before I moved to Germany, I lived in a house with four other guys. So there's five of us in this house, and we developed such a such good, close friendships that I really began to understand what it is to have someone who knows you really, really deeply. And it was because of one in particular, his name was Mark, um, we became really good friends, but Mark would not let me run away. And I I realized at that point that my MO of when relationships got hard was to run away. That's good, Scott. So coming out of that uh context, and I moved to Germany and I was alone. I was the I was the only American male in my 20s in a in a town full of women who were teachers at the Black Forest Academy. So the the first Sunday I'm at church, the guy who I'm with, he stands up and he introduces me as the the newest piece of meat in the in the town, and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. It's a great start, right? Yeah, it was. And so Jane was like, I never want to talk to this guy. And here you are. How long have you ever been married? We've been married 34 years. Wow. Yeah, so um yeah, so she left. I got I realized that I missed her way more, so I called her up in the end of October. Coincidentally, I did not know it was her birthday. Wow. Yeah. So she's having a party with some friends. I call from Germany, and uh, so she goes in the closet to talk, and and I'm like, hey, I've decided that I really wanna I want to pursue you. She's like, what are you talking about? You're in Germany, I'm in Alabama. And uh I was like, no, but we can do this long distance. And she's like, well, okay, if you're serious, I'm like, I'm serious. And um, so that was the end of October. So by the end of December, I'm like, I said I'm serious, I mean it, I want to marry you. And she's like, What? And uh I was like, Yeah, I'm because I had called her up again. I was like, Yeah, I'm not asking you because I'm not gonna ask you over the phone, but I'm just telling you, that's what I want to do. Wow. She's like, okay. So that was two months later in December. So then the next month I fly back to um meet her parents and fly fly back. I fly to Birmingham to meet her parents to ask her. And so we got engaged in January and then got married the next September, and then we started dating because it had been long distance the entire time. But that's more on the friendships of people, friendships of men. So then we a few uh years later moved to Croatia, where we were helping to start um the crew ministry in Soccerup, Croatia, and for many years had a lot of ministry friendships, but but I realized um after after many years that my ability to develop some good close male friendships was sorely lacking. Um so that led to a lot of soul searching. Um went through some burnout um after years on the field and then came back, moved back to America in 2018, and that's when I realized it is really hard to make new friends in your 50s, and thus the desire to to learn more and to speak out more because whenever I shared that it was really hard, and I I pinned it on because I'm new here, and most every other guy said, No, it's it's not because you're new here, it's because it's hard for men to really develop some good close friendships. Yeah, yeah. So I thought, well, I wanted a a desire to do this and and really settled on friendship with you, and so it's like who better to do this with than you? And uh have enjoyed the process of trying to uh walking through getting this off the ground.
SPEAKER_00That's really great.
SPEAKER_04I'm really glad we're doing this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's fun. I've already learned new things about you. So if nothing else, our friendship is growing deeper.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So we can talk more about why this podcast, but I want to hear from you. It's like, what was it like being you growing up?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I grew up in North Louisiana and had a really uh loving, I think safe, nurturing environment that really loved Jesus. But I think something I realized now is I really never saw uh my parents model a lot of close friendship till much later in life. A lot of their friendships were connections they had with parents of my peers, kids I did stuff with. And by the time I was in my teenage years, we would do things to the family of people. But I think I realized I had a lot of friendship in my family. And I had some uh I had a neighborhood kind of best friend I spent a lot of time with. But really until late high school, I think I always felt a lot more longing for connection than I experienced with people. And I think part of that is realizing that I grew up in a household where I really was blessed to have a father, especially, who was very well aware of his emotions, his feelings, was willing to share those with me and would have deep, robust conversations. And I found that that just didn't happen with my peers much. And then by the time I got to college, that was a really formative season for me, I think for a lot of people. And I got involved in this Christian community that modeled vulnerability, confession, um, really bearing one another's burdens in a way that I'd never seen before. I grew up my whole life in the church, come to know the Lord at a pretty early age, was involved in ministry. I was working for a church at this point, but I just saw this real contrast between the church I was working for, which I loved, and it was a faithful church, and this campus ministry group and just the way in which the campus ministry seemed to be embodying something that I saw in the scriptures that was really radical and revolutionary. And it was just really meaningful to me to finally connect with people that would share vulnerably and deeply and say, oh, okay, I'm not alone in this. I'm not alone in the thing that I'm feeling, I'm not alone in the struggle I'm having, I'm not alone in what whatever was kind of going on. And I thought that was so powerful to me. I was really eager to see that move into the church. And so that really kind of brought me on a journey of I've been in pastoral ministry for uh 18 years now and um been in several different kind of church plant environments, and that has been something that's I've always been eager to see happen is uh people connect, men connect in really deep and vulnerable ways where we're not just talking about Jesus, but we're embodying Jesus for one another. I think a lot of what is meaningful in my life, and I think the way people really change is by experiencing Jesus in one another. And yet that's something that's really hard to do. And I think something that I've become aware of is that I can spend a lot of time helping other people do that and not always facilitate that for myself. And I think I've been reflecting on the past several years, uh, kind of had a lot of friends move away, um, had a lot of change in life, had kids. And I think it's just been a lot busier season. And kind of, Scott, as we talked about just in this season life, what does it look like to start new friendships? And what does it look like to grow deeper in friendships when you don't have a lot of time, when you don't have a lot of margin? Um I think what I've been realizing, and something I really want to kind of wrestle with here on the show, is how do we push back against cultural norms that really make it um in some ways feel inappropriate to dive back into a friendship deeply when you haven't seen someone in a month? Or how do we kind of uh come as followers of Jesus with this expectation that we can really bear ourselves with one another? And so um that that's uh a little bit about me and kind of um what I do and also my my desire for uh friendships. But uh I've uh I do have a wife of 13 years, Tara and two kids, Daisy and Judah, and uh they're seven and four. Uh Judah just turned four. We're celebrating his birthday this weekend. And so uh I have a full house. It's a uh a busy season. I'm a pastor at Iron City Church and really loving to do that. Part of what I do is men's ministry there and just kind of even in that purview, that part of my role, see a lot of men, I think, hungry to connect and struggling to know how. And um, so I'm I'm really excited to kind of be able to dive into some of those questions and particularly see what are the ways that we can unlock natural, simple ways to see people connect more deeply, men connect more deeply with one another.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Dustin, I know that when I moved back here, I I felt very disoriented. And it was we had been uh living overseas for 25 years, and America is very different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I had never lived in the South. Um grew up in St. Louis and went to school in the Midwest, and it was very diff it's a very different context for me. And I do you remember when we met? Like it was I know it was 2020, but I forget exactly when. But just to say, it was probably about a year and a half after we had moved back. And sitting and talking with you was the first time that I felt like I could openly grieve what I I felt I had lost or left behind. And there was something about that, that first I don't know if it was an intuitive thing, but I could tell that we're very different. I'd like to talk about that for a minute of how different we are. Yeah, but there is just something about the way that you express your deep concern for people. And um it it gives space for people to be who they are, who they need to be at that moment. I really appreciate that about you. But okay, so can we talk about differences for a second? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, what are you enneotype? Okay, so my Enneagram is an eight uh with a strong wing seven. Sometimes people want to tell me I'm a seven, but uh I have a deep passion for justice and am always eager for a righteous fight. Um, and I'm a real protector of people. I think that's one of the reasons why I feel most strongly that I'm an eight, is um I love protecting people. Sometimes I'm overly eager to protect people. Um but I I'm a seven and really love to have a good time as well, can be a little loud and intense. I'm also a fan of Mars Briggs. So I'm I'm an ENFP. So uh I'm a big extrovert if you're familiar with that. And then I think the other thing I uh really shapes me out of that is that I'm a P. And so I like to see the big picture. I always want to see how things connect. I'm real comfortable in the gray, and and so sometimes I get lost in the big picture. My wife, uh, anytime I make a mistake on a detail, she goes, just a big picture guy, just a big picture guy. So uh I'm a big picture guy. But uh that's a a little bit of kind of about my personality. And what about you, Scott? Pretty different.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so anyotype, I'm a four with a a wing five. So I devolve into myself really quickly and very much into the feeling side. I've I've understood it as like from Myers Briggs, I'm an INFJ, so introvert, but an intuitive feeler and that very detailed. I like things specific, I like to know what's coming up, I like to plan ahead. But I also like to see how I can move into understanding people's thoughts and why they're doing what they're doing through how they're behaving and what's coming out of them and and your emotion. I mean, people's emotions are often the driving force that they may or may not understand. And so I want to connect into what are those emotions that are going on that's that are driving someone to be uh acting the way they do?
SPEAKER_00That's really good. Scott, before we dive into kind of why we want to do this podcast, I think that's how we want to end this first episode. I mentioned a little bit about what I do and kind of why I have some voice in this. I can spend a lot of time with people, uh, with men and women, uh, hearing their stories, hearing how they're connected with one another, hearing how abuse and trauma and hardship and spiritual dryness shape the way they connect to other people and the way they connect with the Lord. Uh but what tell us a little bit about what are you doing now, kind of what's your uh life and vocation look like and how has that maybe uh not made you an expert, but maybe fit to speak to some of these things and giving you a passion to kind of talk about some of these things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I said we went with crew to start the campus ministry in Croatia and so did that for about seven years. After seven years, we started seeing one of the biggest problems that we encounter all the time is that people growing up under communism had a very hard time understanding what it was like to have a normal family relationship in terms of what does God want for us in our marriages and our family. So we started Family Life Croatia, a ministry to to just help people understand what God wants for us in terms of uh having a good marriage and being parents who are uh loving and supportive for their kids. So then we did that for about 10 years. And after 10 years, we found ourselves in a place of burnout.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And so Jane and I went to a program called the Barnabas Zentrum. It was uh program where people in ministry can get away for 12 days and just look at what is God up to in their lives. Because we came to understand God is always up to something in his children's lives. And sometimes that something doesn't feel good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so we start to put up barriers to God and we we want to serve him. We on the outside we would say, yes, we want people to come to know him, but internally we're there's a there's a part of us that is frightened and uh feels threatened by looking at what is truly going on under the surface. So we found ourselves there. So we went away, went to went through this Barnabas uh Zentrum program. And while we were there, the people there asked us if we would want to take it over because they were they were looking for to retire. No, they were in their in their 70s and looking to retire. And we looked at them and we said, you know, we're here for help, right? And they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are the best people who come to understand that they can't do it by themselves. And um, so after going through a year of process of discernment and talking to everyone that we knew and and praying a lot about is this the next steps for us? And and just to put that into context, we had been praying for the the previous three years because uh our Croatian colleague had taken over family life. We were just working with them now, but looking as like, God, what do you want us to do? Yeah. So for three years, we were asking the Lord, do you want us to stay? Do you want us to go somewhere else? Yeah. And so um, so then in 2011, we started uh we took over directing the Barnabas Centrum. And so from that time, we have been doing a lot of counseling. I got my human services degree, but it's a it's a hybrid counseling and social work degree, master's, and Jane got her doctorate in educational leadership. And uh so we started working with families in ministry who were going through anything burnout, crisis, depression, um, family trauma, team hardships. And we have been doing that ever since. And so even though we had to move back to uh the States in 2018 to take care of Jane's mom who was in uh failing health, um, we still do it. That is um how we spend our days is talking to missionaries overseas or seeing people in uh ministry, and we're we're working through again, we just uh take it from the standpoint of God is at work. Yeah, God is always at work in his children.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04So what's he up to? And just digging through how is it impacting that person that day?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's got well um I'm gonna make you go back to back, but tell tell us uh you came to me with this idea and I I loved it and excited to be a part, but why this podcast? Why closer than brother? Um, what what do you hope that we can kind of cover, speak to? What's the vision for this podcast?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So after coming back um from Croatia in 2018, went through just a hard transition, but then in 2020, my father died. In 2021, Jane's mother died. We were living with her. Then in during COVID, we had a really a good friend who died of COVID. And then back to back, we had two pastors from overseas, one from Czech and one from Poland. come to spend time with us because they had lost their their wives. And I just started going into depression.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And I could not figure out what was going on. And then overall it was uh I think for me it was the fear of there's death all around me. Um Jane is the closest person in my life. What if something happens to her? I don't have any close male friends. And that that was the threat to my security at that point that I wasn't willing to face. It was it was too much. Even so started going through counseling and just digging through those truths.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um it made me realize uh I am not only do I not have male friends, I'm afraid of making some good male friendships.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04And so I wanted to start digging through why am I afraid of that? So that was the the reason really the genesis for the podcast was what if there are other men out there who feel similarly then maybe maybe the reason for their fear of being vulnerable with other men is not the same as mine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But it's still fear. Yeah. And it's still uh fears threaten our well being and we don't ever want to put ourselves in a place where we're we're just walking into a bear trap.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We we want to feel safe. And so then I thought well how about if we could have a podcast where we can sort of dispel those threats or fears and give people give men especially an understanding of how do you build a safe environment in order to experience safe relationships.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's really really good Scott and I think that is it's really exciting me when you told me uh kind of that vision and that desire. And I think for me it is something I see so often externally but I think even internally it's like what what makes it so difficult to cultivate this? And I think there's a lot of men in our church in our society that deeply long for a lot more connection. And the lack of that friendship and connection is drawing them to all kinds of destructive behavior but also just bringing up depression, isolation, keeping them from living into the fullness that God has for them. And I think a lot of times when I talk to men, it's not that they don't want it or don't know that they want it, they just don't know how to develop it. And it it's so contrary to what they've experienced in so many spaces. And so I'm I'm excited to kind of explore how how do we build friendships? So if you're like, should I keep listening to this podcast, we want to talk about things like how do we build friendships? What are the barriers to building friendships? We want to interview some people who have really healthy vibrant friendships that are really different and tell some of their stories and hear some of that we want to hear from other people who have a lot of experience in this space about what makes a good friendship. And all this is going to be we we can't tell the story without talking about our faith and kind of the way Jesus shapes friendships and how we're made to have connection and intimacy and how that connection with one another connects us more deeply to God and how our connection with God connects us more deeply to one another. And so I think that's a lot of the vision that we have for this next couple of episodes and excited to go on this journey with y'all. Scott, you got anything before we close I do not so do you have anything before you want to close I hope that y'all will join us weekly for this wild ride. Signing off on Closer Than a brother it's Dustin Ratcliffe and Scott Queedon
