What happens when charisma outruns character? /// FOLLOW x UP with Michele Cushatt

Episode 004: What happens when charisma outruns character?

Very few people finish well. That reality is sobering, especially for those in Christian leadership.

In this episode of the FOLLOW x UP podcast, Eric Parks sits down with Steve Carter and returning guest Michele Cushatt for a deeply honest conversation about formation, leadership, church hurt, charisma, character, and the systems that can quietly shape pastors and communities over time.

Together, they explore why moral failure rarely happens all at once, how the pressures of platform and influence can distort a leader’s soul, and why spiritual formation must be more than something leaders teach — it has to be something they are actively living.

This conversation is not only for pastors. It is for anyone who has experienced hurt in the church, anyone who has placed a leader on a pedestal, and anyone who wants to follow Jesus with integrity for the long haul.

The invitation is simple and searching: do the work beneath the surface, resist the drift toward adoration, and build lives and communities that help one another finish well.

Meet your hosts, Eric Parks and Steve Carter

Eric Parks

Eric is an Executive Pastor at Plum Creek Church in Castle Rock, Colorado, who cares deeply about helping people rehearse the way of Jesus in everyday life—and holds firm as a Denver Broncos fan, no matter how often Steve brings up the Bears.

Steve Carter

Steve is the Lead Pastor at Christ Church in Oak Brook, Illinois, offering a thoughtful and honest voice to the deeper work of formation and calling—and remains a devoted Chicago Bears fan, even with Eric representing Broncos country.

Explore all of Follow

We’re all following something—habits, expectations, ambition—but Jesus offers a different way. A way marked by love, presence, trust, and a life that actually leads somewhere good. Not perfectly, but increasingly, we begin to shape our lives around his.

We believe that if Jesus is right—about God, about life, about the soul—then is only makes sense to rearrange your life around what he says is true.

Follow isn’t a program to complete or a path to master, but a way of life centered on Jesus. A way of living that takes shape over time through a steady rearrangement of our lives—our priorities, our rhythms, and the things we trust most.

Links

Follow: https://www.followtheway.church/

Plum...

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Very few people actually finished their life well. So I think you have to start with some of the staggering realities of this is again up against an enemy who comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Lots of people are hurt. I I probably have at least one conversation a week with someone who will say, church hurt.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

At times we get so busy and trying to execute God's plan. What we are calling God's plan. We're letting that superimpose as our priority and take us away from the actual character work of just being with Jesus and letting him change us and transform us.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Welcome to the Follow Up Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus was right about God and life, the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he said is true. So that's what we're exploring. All that Jesus said was true and how to rearrange our lives around it. Try again.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

We've only been friends for like, I don't know, two or three years now.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

This is a great story, though, because I think this story is worth telling. Um, because Michelle uh is not only gifted author, speaker, pastor, um, but she attends the church that I attend Plum Creek Church. Lucky me. And but we did not know each other. And the way we got to know each other was this man right here.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

And you had her on your podcast, right? Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

And I was like, she lives in Castle Rock, and I and I was like guest speaking at the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

It was like a throwaway interaction at the end of our recording, right before we hung up. Right. Like it was the last two minutes.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

And then I was like, hey, one of the smartest people I know actually goes to the church you're teaching at. You need to hang out with her. And then I think you guys connected one Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

And I'm just sort of like dumb enough to text whoever Carter sends me their number.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

I'm like, I'm like, some strange guy just texted me.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

I know I was like, okay, hey, you know my friend Steve. We should hang out. And it but this is a good example for real um of how the Lord works because you had been attending Plum Creek for two to three years in anonymity.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah. Had come every single weekend. Our family are used to real faithful, we're there all the time. Had started attending right after COVID because we had moved down to Kashrak and had been just attending, but very much anonymous, not connected. And uh I had been really comfortable that way, except that I have felt God starting to move me toward re-engaging. And there's a whole story behind my church journey and ministry and everything. But I knew God was moving, but I was reluctant because it's risky to be known, right? And to be seen and known and connected, especially in a local context, where like where would I go if it didn't work out? Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

And so there was just a real tension. And so God decided to make it abundantly easy for me by this conversation with Steve and that connection. And I mean, for the last two years, uh, God's kindness and allowing me to re-engage in a local local church community in baby steps to just slowly heal some things from the past. I mean, that's just God's kindness.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

To hear you say that your engagement is has been baby steps to me. It's like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Well, for me, I mean, just layers and like select because I if you only knew how many times my fear and just uh I hope this encourages somebody listening. The risk of being seen and known within the context of a Christian community is legit.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

And that's why a lot of people attend and never get connected. And yeah, God doesn't want to leave us there. And so He's been so kind to just not let me stay back and uh allow me to take steps and then heal me at the same time before I'm tempted to run away and flee.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

We we did uh you know, Michelle now speaks regularly at the church. Um, she co-authored the follow guide, executive produced the prayer guide. We have another one coming out. Well, we'll have more coming out in the future. She's deeply involved, and so yeah, I've And it's a privilege. I mean, it is a privilege. Your voice in the project has been just so profound and wonderful. You know, um, here's where I'd love to take us today. A little bit different. And if you're not a pastor, uh, I do believe that this episode will speak to you as well. But I thought we might have a conversation around Christian leadership. You know, what does that look like in the evangelical church? Steve and I, and I I would say Michelle as well, spent our whole life in the evangelical church, active in the evangelical space as well. You know, sometimes there has been a race to outcomes. We talked about this uh recently, that ignores or allows for character deficiencies to be put on a back burner. Because here's what I believe to be true. I don't think anybody just wakes up one day and then craters their life, right? It doesn't really work that way. Now it works in practice that way because whatever that thing is gets uh made public. But that's like that's like that's like the the iceberg above the water. There's years and years and years. And so part of what I want to talk about is like um this process in Christian leadership of becoming and how important it is that at the highest level we as pastors are pursuing becoming. Like we are being formed, not just speaking about it, um, not being not utilize our gifting, um uh, but that we are serious about formation at the highest levels, because I mean, I think I'll tell you my opinion, it's a failure of formation, right? When someone um when you see a ministry blow up or a pastor morally fail, um, it doesn't happen. It's a low, a long, slow um sort of process. So I'd love to just sort of dive into that and talk a little bit about that today, your experience with it and just the importance of us as pastors um making sure not only we cultivate our own inner lives, but that we're not platforming people too quickly, that we are um creating systems, um, processes, uh, even though I'm not a process guy, but uh we're expectations that formation is a non-negotiable, that we really are not perfect, but that we're being formed.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

It's not only not optional, it's like the thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Like it goes back to, you know, what would it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his very self? Like this is the whole thing. John 17. This is eternal life, that you would know God and his son, whom he sent. Like this is it. And so at times we get so busy and trying to execute God's plan, what we are calling God's plan. Yeah, we're letting that superimpose as our priority and take us away from the actual character work of just being with Jesus and letting him change us and transform us.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Yeah, I feel that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

He wrote and he said that um studying the Bible, only 33% of the people finish well. Um and then he kind of charted that out in politics and in faith. And he said, very few people actually finish their life well. So I think you have to start with some of the staggering realities of this. Isn't like um, yeah, everyone gets to the end of their life and it's like well done, good and faithful servant. Like, right. This is this is again up against an enemy who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. Uh, 33%. So I okay, can we just pause?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

That's staggering and heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

As someone who knows that I could easily, I mean, I know my own culpability and how easily I could make a series of decisions to land me in that 33%.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

And so how do we not do that?

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Yeah, and and and and so so you hold that with that reality. The same thing is I want to give a lot of people the benefit of the doubt. They jump into ministry with really, really good intention. Yeah, totally. God is somehow using this ability when I play G and D and E minor and C, and like, and and and God is using this ability that I have a connection with students or when I open up God's word, or whatever that might be. But something happens because the church is connected to this evangelical or industrial complex. And none of this is bad in itself. I'm just saying this is this is how it starts to happen, how the system begins to happen is you start to grow and and and people start to show up, and then all of a sudden you can't fit in the same building. So you need a bigger space. So in the bigger space makes total sense. And the best purest motives in that. Well, now the bank is gonna take out uh you're gonna take out a loan with the bank, and the bank's gonna ask this one simple question who's the key man? The key man's the the person who's opening up God's word without even knowing it. What that does is it shifts a whole bunch of power to this one person that uh all of a sudden there's a pressure for a mortgage to be paid, for seats to be filled. Seats to be filled, we've gotta actually do this in a way. I can't I can't be a prophet because I might lose this. So all of a sudden, having to like navigate that part while also meaning called the key man is also lending you to be the narcissistic uh power broker. So again, none of it's bad in itself, but if you don't have the right checks and balances in place, all of a sudden, well, that's that's what Pastor said. That's that's what what we're doing. And 90% of it's really, really good. The 10% we can dismiss because we don't want to have to carry that note without Pastor. Or we don't want to have to like it's you you just you it's like human nature to want to see the good and want to um be on the side, the right side of history. And so I don't want to uh uh bring up a question of maybe a two percent drift in a character deficiency because then it might seem like I'm discounting all the good.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

They're only human, they're only human, and and you just start to kind of like we use the word grace, we just need to have grace and have compassion, or we need to yes, and it's it's just little by little two percent over the course of years and decades.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

Right. You're not gonna land in Phoenix if you fly from Denver, you are gonna land in Yuma or somewhere else, you know. And and and I think recognizing capital campaigns, they're not bad, they're really, really good. I mean, your eyes are in one right now, which is awesome. Um, that's amazing. Um, having a spiritual gift, not bad. That's amazing. Watching people come to faith and and a church that's growing, not bad. It's amazing, but all of that doesn't mean it's perfect. Because sometimes the the adage is, well, healthy things grow. Well, so does cancer. You know, and so like you know, and so so like so part of it is recognizing how as a as an organization and as a leader am I walking honestly and vulnerably to recognize I'm as susceptible?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

You called it the what did you call it, the industrial complex, the uh evangelical church industrial complex. For real, like um, we're not making this up. There is there are headlines that hit on a regular basis around very high uh effective pastors who have um who have fallen. They have fallen. I mean, that's really what we're talking about. When we say finishing well, um, I mean it's not code, it's like I mean, it really rocked me when Robbie Zacharias fell. Like that rocked me. Because here's a guy for me that I'm like there are gonna be some people who might not finish well, but probably not that person. And um, and I'm not trying to point out any particular person, I'm just saying that this happens regularly. This isn't like it doesn't feel like one-offs. So, how is it that uh this happens so regularly?

SPEAKER_04 15:06

There's so many, there's so many, and I think it's it's it's dependent on the context and dependent on the person, dependent on the organization. Um, and I think I think deep down there's a there's a piece of of pace. Um, I think you can you can get yourself into a pace of you are you you are working, working, working, um pushing, pushing, pushing, and and what got you into ministry, um the motivation changes. Uh motivation uh moves from from souls to maybe influence. Yeah, uh, it moves from pace to I, you know, almost where you've become a victim of your own life. Um I I I just have to do this, and I gotta keep these people happy, and I gotta do this, and I gotta, and into the verse that you quoted from Matthew, what good is it for a man to gain the whole world yet, profit their soul? It you can find little shortcuts. That's why I love the cadets prayer. Every every cadet at West Point, my grandfather's buried there, was a multi-star general, they had to memorize this prayer, and it says, Let us live above the common level of life, let us choose the harder right over the lesser wrong. And I think that sometimes you can you get to this moment of if I work at Chase Bank and I'm a branch manager, I might be a Christ follower, um, but my first and primary job and profession is a a branch manager at Chase Bank. No shade on that. That's a great job. If I'm a pastor, even though I'm just as human as the branch manager, I somehow in the voice of God as a mouthpiece. Now I'm the person who married the elders, elders, you know, family. I I baptized the elders' kids. I've been there in significant moments of high highs, low lows, taught, and all of a sudden, like that's my that's my guy. That's my that's my that's my favorite preacher. She's amazing. Like all of a sudden, you you it's hard because God now has been attached to this, um, that I think is both fair and unfair, but it is a pressure at which it's reality, it is a pressure at which, and so I remember there was one pastor came up to me and said, You're gonna have to wrestle with, um, and it was a little antiquated for me personally, but he's just said, uh, you're gonna have to wrestle with what your relationship with is with girls, gold, and glory. And I was like, what? And he's like, he's like, I'm telling you, because that's that's the way most men who don't end well and don't finish well, it's somewhere around the glory. It becomes all about them and their influence and their ambition and their pride, and it takes them down. It becomes about the the resourcing, the money. It becomes everything about their life, and they need more and more and more, or it becomes some kind of um sexual escape. And so I I think that there's more G's that you can add to this, but like I think that you have to wrestle with where are you susceptible? Where in your story you take any of the names and add my name to that list and go, we all come from some family system, and that family system taught us something, and none of us showed up in the ministry as someone who is arrived or perfect. We are all in process, but but are we doing our work? And and are are we actually allowing ourselves? Um, so like right now, to be honest, the church I'm at, Christchurch, our our kind of like trustees, which would be our elders, they're like meeting with a couple of like pastors to try and help say, how do we how do we um save Steve from Steve? And how do we protect the organization from Steve? Um, and how do we how do we protect uh Steve from the organization? How do you have those conversations and and create healthy guardrails, but also knowing every system can be gamified.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

I mean, here's the thing. Uh it's funny that you talked about the system that you guys are are um implementing, right? Because sometimes when I think about, and I want to say this from the beginning, um the uh but for the grace of God, you know, right? But for the grace of God.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

You know how many times God has saved me for myself.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

It's a pretty consistent thing. And we teach this in our house. I said, look, you're not always gonna get it right, but you can make it right. So we're not talking about perfection, um, but we've watched this happen enough that it's not a surprise. And I want to recognize like there will be people who um are sitting on the other side of this, and it is exceedingly painful, and it has disrupted their life, and they didn't have anything to do with it, right? It completely wrecked them, and so um, and many of the people who have fallen or not finished well, they did not start off nobody goes into this planning to do that. Right, you don't plan, but it makes me think it happens, it makes me think that sometimes I wonder if we've created uh uh a structure that makes it easier for good people to fail. For instance, the platform. Um we know that your giftedness in the platform, um, if you are gifted preacher, um that expedites a ton. You're gonna talk about a microwave. You can be platformed quickly if you are gifted, right? The platform terrifying. It is, it is, and then I think about um the isolation we formed these uh pastoral systems of whether we like it or not, in these larger apparatus of easy isolation, um, green rooms and uh pastoral staff that does things like um burials and weddings and hospital visits. And then we have to own some of this as the people, adulation. We like of course we like our pastors to be important, we put them in. these places and I wonder sometimes and that's why I love to hear what you guys are doing is like have we not sometimes built structures that actually um look you still have to you still have to do the bad thing you still have to like do the bad thing but do these systems of platform and isolation and adulation need to be addressed as systemic issues that like look if you're isolated it makes it easier to fall if you sit at the top of this thing and you're the king man it makes it easier to lie to yourself if you have a platform presence it makes it easier to justify because you can say no no look at all the good that I'm doing look at all the good that I'm doing so I and I'll I'll get it under control. I'll figure this out um so I I just I think when we talk about you know making it plain um I think there is something as pastors that say trust and verify you know it's like let's build systems that um uh when when when's the last time you heard someone confess in the church from leadership and it actually be done well and that person wasn't canceled or fired.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

I can count on my hand a lot quicker the moments where people kept secrets and hid and were found out than I can the example of someone who said yep hey I I'm wrestling proactive I'm wrestling with this and was either sidelined well or that was brought and handled well or wasn't shamed and kicked to the curb because we we don't want our we want our pastors to have their their act together even though we know everyone's on a journey it it is it's I think it's it's this hard spot of what does what does actual vulnerability and and truth and transparency look like well every weekend I get done and I walk to my car I say I'm I'm one weekend closer to finishing well. I have 52 weekends in a year if I'm doing this for the next 20 years um you know that's a thousand and four weekends that I have to go. And it's and it's like and and being really really honest um with like to what Michelle was saying is to know where I'm susceptible. But when I got my when I when I was hired at Willow um as the lead teaching pastor I asked them I asked the elders this simple question but how do I know I'll do well and they gave me a document and the document was all outcomes based and I and I said I could do all of this and be dying inside and you wouldn't know how do you how do how do we how do you like and everything was up and to the right more baptisms more attendance financially hitting our goals all all important good stuff but there was no question about the soul there was no like can we would love to talk to your therapist who's your small group who's your best friend who knows exactly how's your marriage here's what we want to invest in your well-being as a person there was none of that it was it's it's just so easy to move it to a hired gun and again no shade on a worship pastor um but I can play the same 27 songs in a six month period and and keep doing Reckless Love which is a great song or this song or that song or promises or whatever whatever it is. Every week it's a different talk every week it's different stories every every week it's a different chance to plagiarize to exaggerate to boom boom boom boom all this stuff all these pitfalls all these pitfalls while at the same time dealing with a family who just had a person commit die by suicide another person die by accidental death a a family member who died with cancer at the same time marriage hospital visits like the emotional the weight weight of it all massive it and being up in front and so to your system structure piece um sometimes I look at it and go man 33% is actually really good odds I mean like it's it's like with with what we've created and at the same time it breaks my heart.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

We have the you know for the pastor the leader I'm gonna say leader themselves their own issues and susceptibilities and things like that. But then also the community congregational expectation and the way they view the role all right so go back to Saul being instituted as king the people wanted a king like all the other nations right they wanted Saul to be their king and it wasn't because um it they were following in God's direction they were literally rejecting a theocratic style of government for a a kingship like everybody else around them. And that was as much um the community's problem as it was Saul's problem when Saul ended up failing it was the responsibility on both halves because the expectation was not what it needed to be and then his execution was not what it was needed to be. So the only way we can really start to heal this is to address both by really I guess going back to the drawing board of what does it look like to be a pastor and how do we communicate to this to our congregations as well.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

I think one of the ways and I've been trying because I think it's such a it is such a great image is starting to look at going what are because any system can be gamified but what are some healthy principles that I think relieve the the pressure on us all I think one of them is a preaching team. Yes if you have a preaching team that means you don't have to always be on stage like um are there are there moments where um you're not the smartest person in the room or you're not the one with the final word every time like there are these pieces are there rules like Chuck de Gros wrote this great book called When Narcissism comes to church and he's brilliant and and I've heard of that but yeah and he said um he said Steve you have to you have to imagine it's just how easy it is for you to be a narcissist I said okay tell me he goes have you ever gotten your slides in late I'm like yeah and he goes that means the entire organization the tech team the production team has to wait and if you send them on Saturday they aren't to be able to be with their family or Sabbath they are waiting for you to get your slides in and they only do that because you've said that that's okay and they're waiting on you and and and that's just a small piece but if that if that happens then why can't this happen and why can't this happen and why can't this happen and then it's a where's it's a power dynamic rest.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Exactly right it's all right there.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

It's all right there and so for for from that moment on I was like oh my gosh this is changes everything because again the natural tide isn't going to be health and wellbeing and soul care and formation it's gonna be drifting to especially when you're in the top few seats everything that that power dynamic that ties in that whole concept of shalom that the shalom of the individual is directly tied to shalom of the community.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yes and when we as leaders start to think that our shalom is the only shalom that matters we are missing the actual definition of God's shalom. Yes it's about the community as a whole which quite honestly has no room for this whole celebrity pastor kind of mindset. Like there's just no room within the shalom dynamic for that. Why why why then though do we continue to see um this dynamic at play and I'm not trying to call out celebrity pastors or whatever that is but there is a dynamic where the system um immediately recognizes and incentivizes great preachers people who can speak God's word right great preachers um and then we put them into a little isolated box and we add you know we're like they're the greatest thing that's uh ever happened I just think um and some of these some of these pastors are really really young like really really young I think part of it is we value charisma over character right I mean and I say this as a congregation member we are so drawn and some of this is our culture and everything else Hollywood we are so drawn to charisma and and energy and something that we aspire to and so that charisma ends up being more of a driving factor than actual character.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

Yeah it's a it's it's it's a difficult one right because um in some sense there are incredibly gifted people David was incredibly gifted yeah you know Solomon was incredibly gifted Paul was incredibly gifted like Peter was incredibly gifted you know like you you start to look at that I think it becomes do you have the character to match that gift and and and again if you if you know the phrase that we would often talk about is a cruciform life if if you are Jesus like got down on his knees and he washes the feet of his disciples so it's not about the greatest preacher it should be about the servant leader is this person a servant leader or is this person really just a hireling with a with a gift like we just hired this gift. We he's just a he or she's just like a hired gun but if if you think about the organization when when this person do they do they walk by the facilities person do they know them when when when chairs need to be set up or taken down is their role too busy? Like do they have margin in their schedule? Are they a part of a team? Do they have people in their life that just aren't saying yes but they have people who are asking harder questions can they get actual feedback from people and put it into practice like you you have to start like all about formation.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

It's the whole point of this right are we actively engaging in our own formation.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

And it's and and it's so hard because oftentimes in that lane to do that you will finish you have the best you have such a higher and more better chance to finish well without it you could make a lot more money you can have a lot more freedom and it is so dangerous. And it's so dangerous I've seen it up close um too many times it's just so dangerous. And I and I think just recognizing um what is the formation required um because to be honest I want to reach as many people for Christ as possible because I love Jesus um but I don't have to be the only one that reaches them yeah I want to see the other churches in my community win. I want to see the other teaching pastors be raised up and have opportunities. I don't have to be on stage but it is wild people will come and tell me why don't you just put yourself on video I don't I don't I don't want to I'd rather be a place that raises up teachers. Yeah but don't you think it'd be no I just want to raise up other teachers and I think in other people's mind is if you have someone that you can hand the ball off to 30 times and they're gonna get 120 yards just keep doing that and yet with running backs they're done at the age of 30. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

That's the finish line and the and preachers there is a finish line with that kind of mentality and very few can make it um so can I ask you a question um the candidly I mean and you talk about whatever you feel comfortable with but you've written your last two books in so many ways deal with deal with this from two different ways um thing beneath the thing really deals with the sort of hey what is this um underneath the waterline why do I do the things that I do what is this thing that is beneath the thing right the the thing and then your most recent book grieve, breathe, receive you walk through some of your journey um because you've had uh you've watched up close right and and here's the thing you and I have been working together for a long time it's not that you just have experienced personally um I've been in the room when you get phone calls from churches and when they're in crisis it seems it's typically they're calling Steve Carter going hey uh we got a problem here what are we supposed to do I wonder like as you've written the book and you've thought deeply about like um finishing well and and that that failure uh when when you have a uh premature ending to ministry what's some of the biggest learnings that you've seen and maybe it's personal you wrote about it yeah I'll give you a couple just off the top of my head first is this um people often ask me why do you still love the church and my answer right away is the church never hurt me five people did so they represent the church right but Christ didn't hurt me God didn't hurt me the church didn't hurt me it was five people um and my job is to to work on forgiving them and hoping for a day and praying for a day of reconciliation so that's number one any of you who are walked through what we would say is church hurt I would just say name the people who actually hurt you and it's people hurt. I want to sit for that that's really important. I mean that's really really important because we know that uh hurt happens lots of people are hurt they come through our doors we we and I I probably have at least one conversation a week with someone who will say church hurt I had one last night just last night where they talked deeply they're like I have not been back to a church since 2019 and that's because of and the phrase used church hurt I think that is really important to delineate the two that um people hurt us um and that that's a different that has uh a different connection than than the big C broader church so that's huge second second piece I would say to that too is um there are people in the world who are speaking up on the regular about the discrepancies or the dissonance that they're seeing in the church.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Some of it's good some of it I would say is a little bit ambulance chasing what we need in this time is to recognize with profound levels of discernment um where am I complicit as a congregant? And I love that example um because um when I when I left I um Willow I remember I was kind of walking through some of this my my whole kind of history of church work and I was talking with a trauma therapist and I'll never forget this trauma therapist said to me Steve first and foremost I want to let you know you're a victim but that's not the most interesting piece about what you shared with me. The most interesting thing to me is this why are you drawn to narcissists? And I said what and she said because if you don't deal with that you're gonna find yourself in that situation again it's gonna repeat itself and yeah and and what is it is it the certainty is it the control is it it feels like you're winning is it it bigger is it better what and I and I had to recognize oh I I'm complicit in this because I I got a lot from being in those rooms I got a lot from being on that and I I got a lot for actually not saying anything if I if I chose not to say something. And so I think you just have to look at this and go all right is this a pursuit of a person named Jesus or a person who's connected to an institution that I'm really really proud of like I am the quarterback of the University of Michigan. I like and I think that's the unfortunate piece and then all of a sudden when it doesn't work out you're like that was my person and deep down that's a counterfeit God in Tim Keller language. It is only about the person of Jesus. So church didn't hurt me where am I complicit and then the the other piece I would say is this just be careful because we're living in a time right now when Ananias baptized Saul it took him three plus years before he went back to Jerusalem. We are rushing people to stages and I think that um you know I've nothing I've nothing I never met Kanye West but there are a lot of people who rushed him to a stage um and now I don't know if those same people who rushed him to a stage are with him right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

And that means they're just as um complicit complicit right yeah and we we do the same things right yeah because I think at some level we want these stars we want somebody to admire and look up to but God's keeps saying you were never supposed to be looking up to another human as your star.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

And and and I think that's interesting that piece of looking at it from also recognizing um in my 20s I thought bigger was better. In my 40s I think safe and consistent is this the coolest thing ever like because that makes that makes an organization worthy of trust to me. And I like the longevity I like the liturgy I like recognizing that there's a team I like seeing that there are structures in place or that people are willing to have difficult conversations I I've started to see that that kind of structure breeds a better kind of freedom and gives me and hopefully all of our staff the best chance to finish well.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

I think it's brilliant. I I think you you hit on a few things um though whether you're a Christian leader or you're um someone serving in a church or maybe just attending a church that um we have to think about and at the end of the day you said this every system can be gamified and uh the truth is I think as a generation you and I you know we're all beginning to be the people that mentored us in other words right like I remember looking back and I remember the first time that I met John Orberg and I was probably 28 and I had read his book The Life You've Always Wanted and the the deep tendency within me to want to make him a rock star. I I I was in awe of like this guy who lived in Rockford Illinois I mean he came from Rockford Illinois went to East High School I was a youth pastor in Rockford Illinois um there is something in us that um recognizes a gift and then wants to put it in a particular place um and and and I don't want to demonize the gift I mean um there are people who are who are gifted writers and communicators I mean they're sitting at this table and it isn't the gift it is um we as mentors now have a responsibility to teach a next generation um not only how to steward that gift but how to steward their life right like what does it mean um and uh yeah it's great you you You you have a gift that could propel our church into a particular space. But I actually love you enough to slow this thing down and to teach you um what it really means to be in this space.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Um I keep thinking there's a difference between appreciation and adoration. Yes, for sure. Right? So it's okay to appreciate a gift, but we so easily go to adoration, which actually isn't fair to the other person or ourselves. Right. Like we really set it up for failure. So how do we stay in a place of appreciating? Um, but not let it slip into that, like we so much with the hero.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Like, how do we guard against that? And how do we teach that as leaders? How do we teach that? Like it's okay to appreciate, but don't let's not use pedestals. They're just not good.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Well, I mean, this is why uh I look back. Um, Steve and I we were both mentored by um someone I think is probably the humblest presence that has walked the planet in the last uh 50 years in Dallas Willard, right? And um Dallas was a consistent presence of modeling like the way of Jesus, right? If there was ever someone who could take a shortcut that could um leverage his platform for his own gain. And I remember uh I was really, really young at the time. We were working on this formation project, and we were pouring a lot of time and energy in this project. And um we uh we had filmed a bunch of stuff with Dallas. It's one of the coolest moments ever. It was Dallas and his wife and John Orperg, and they it's a conversation at a cafe in Palo Alto. So I was behind the camera, and I mean I wasn't filming, I was sort of if what you call what I do, directing. But I I went to Dallas after we were done. And I'm like, hey, so um we're gonna take a lot of this content, and we would really love to write it uh out and insert it in some of our guides. Can we get you to sign off on uh allowing us to use it? Of course, there's only Dallas Kid. He sat there for a minute, he's like, Brother Eric, you may use anything I've ever said. There's no signature needed, it's all yours. And so I think there was always when you watch someone choose to live out these principles and practices, what you're talking about. Structures are one thing, and I'm not suggesting we shouldn't build structures in the churches that will help our pastors be less isolated. That we that, you know, I again, I don't want to take the responsibility off the perpetrator or the person who failed. They made mistakes, regardless of the system, they made choices, but there is something to modeling consistently to a generation a different way, right? When we talk about discipleship and what it looked like in the first century, I think that is what we've been trying to get after. That so affected me, watching someone live it out, just in the same way watching someone crash and burn affects you. You watch it.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

And I keep going back to the same thing. We can only model externally what is true of us internally.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

I mean, there's just no way. I mean, we can try, but it doesn't last, right? Sooner or later, what's on the inside comes out. So we can only model that to the extent that we have done that work internally, and that requires um ruthless attack of our self-deceptions.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

That's a good phrase.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Uh, you know, a willingness to daily um reckon with who we really are at a level of honesty that we just don't find very often. Yeah, I mean, we could go on and on, but that like all of these things, it's like it keeps coming back to man, I have to do the work. There's no shortcut of that. And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 48:17

Michelle, going back to your your Saul example, you know, you had um both Saul and the community. And so I think in one sense, what you're saying is so spot on. We have to like ruthlessly attack those areas of self-deception. But I also think about this other side for the culture and the community of the larger church. Um, a number of years ago, I got the privilege to go to the Vatican and uh meet with uh Francis, Pope Francis the night before we meet with his uh social media guy, which is hilarious, who ended up being a uh uh historian of Catholicism. So we're having dinner and he's like, Any questions about Catholicism? And nobody's really asking a question. So I just raise my hand and go, Hey, um, you've had some really good popes and you've had some really bad ones. How do you make sense of that? Like Pope Borgia, who had kids and bought the role and killed people. Like, how how do you how do you tell your story? I'll never forget this. He said something so profound. He said, You were right, we've had some really good Christ examples in our popes, and we've had a lot that aren't. But every time we have not had a good pope, it is then it has been a picture that we have drifted from the the proper center of our faith, which we responded with creating a new order. So you the Jesuit order came in response to Borgia. Um, the Benedictine order came in response, like everything came into response. So I think you are right in the individual, we have our responsibility. I also think this is a needs to be some new order, new order right now for how we understand really good work the character and the culture of the bride of Christ. Wow, and and I think that and the calling of the individual leaders within us within that and and I think if we could get those two working and humming, I think we give ourselves the best chance to see 33% get over 55%.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

I will say um I love that new order. Steve and I are part of a community who uh from the very beginning of every meeting, the whole goal is to finish well. Pastors from all over there is an order, there is a movement afoot um around things like follow and formation. There is new orders being built of young pastors, leaders who really are gifted saying, I want to finish well, I want to be an order of accountability, I want to be uh, I want to be someone who genuinely honors Christ with my life, right? So that when we get to the end of this, I'm not a footnote, right? Footnote in the church's history at best. And so I do think there is like some of that uh that that stuff is at play. We see it. I mean, that's why we're sitting here candidly. It's like, hey, there is an order being formed um around spiritual formation, uh, a pursuit of Jesus, um rethinking like what does this whole thing that we've been a part of mean? Uh and I I'm I'm optimistic. I'm genuinely optimistic about um this next uh this next season of following Jesus in our local churches. So, man, what an awesome conversation. Thanks, man. Thanks, Steve, Michelle. Thank you. As always, awesome having you with us. We loved it. Um, and uh grateful for the listeners. So that's gonna do it for today. If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit. Take it with you. Carry it into your week. Talk about it with somebody, let it do something in you. And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes. We'll be back soon with more. So until then, keep following up.