What are you still defending? /// FOLLOW x UP

Episode 009: What are you still defending?

In this episode of the FOLLOW x UP podcast, Steve Carter and Eric Parks explore the prayer of confession—not as shame, performance, or merely admitting what someone already knows, but as a courageous act of vulnerability before God and others.

Together, they unpack why confession is one of the least practiced spiritual muscles in many Christian communities, especially in a culture shaped by image management, self-protection, and curated versions of ourselves. Steve reframes confession as going first into the unknown—bringing what is hidden into the light and trusting that God, and trusted community, can hold it with us.

The conversation moves through the difference between defending our intent and owning our impact, the role of examination in prayer, and why true confession creates a pathway from rupture to repair. Steve also shares a personal leadership story about words that unintentionally hurt someone on his team, and what it required to own the impact, seek repair, and receive grace.

This episode is an invitation to stop hiding, stop managing, and begin practicing the kind of honest confession that leads to healing, integration, and deeper trust.

Meet your hosts, Eric Parks and Steve Carter

Eric Parks

Eric is an Executive Pastor at Plum Creek Church in Castle Rock, Colorado, who cares deeply about helping people rehearse the way of Jesus in everyday life—and holds firm as a Denver Broncos fan, no matter how often Steve brings up the Bears.

Steve Carter

Steve is the Lead Pastor at Christ Church in Oak Brook, Illinois, offering a thoughtful and honest voice to the deeper work of formation and calling—and remains a devoted Chicago Bears fan, even with Eric representing Broncos country.

Explore all of Follow

We’re all following something—habits, expectations, ambition—but Jesus offers a different way. A way marked by love, presence, trust, and a life that actually leads somewhere good. Not perfectly, but increasingly, we begin to shape our lives around his.

We believe that if Jesus is right—about God, about life, about the soul—then is only makes sense to rearrange your life around what he says is true.

Follow isn’t a program to complete or a path to master, but a way of life centered on Jesus. A way of living that takes shape over time through a steady rearrangement of our lives—our priorities, our rhythms, and the things we trust most.

Links

Follow: https://www.followtheway.church/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Confession is going into that space where they don't yet know. Wow. That level of vulnerability to bring a friend in. I'm really struggling with suicidal ideation. You? I'm really wrestling with hatred towards this person in my life. What you? I'm going first and stepping out and believing that both God and the other person I am confessing can hold space and hold it with me.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Welcome to the follow-up podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus was right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he said is true. So that's what we're exploring. All that Jesus said was true and how to rearrange our lives around it. Steve Carter. I like that hat. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen you in purple.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Never. So tell everybody what hat you're wearing. Uh so it's NYU. Let's go. Uh so my son's uh going there. So both our sons graduated this week. I know it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I mean, we're dating the that's all right. It's springtime here in the Midwest. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

How did that feel? Feel great. Felt great. So he's uh off to NYU. He's gonna spend the first year in Madrid and so my gosh. Madrid, uh Arkansas, Madrid, Arkansas. Uh so uh yeah, so he's super pumped, gonna study poly science economics. Oh my gosh, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Like this is this is like you're take it from me. Yeah, empty nesting's coming fast. Oh man, five years. Well, what once you get one kid in college, it seems to go fast. Wow, wow. So wow, graduation. Yeah, Harry graduated. He's our last going, he's staying here in Colorado, going to CSU. That's awesome. Uh, and we had graduation two weeks ago. Our middle, Gray, graduated with his master's from KU. So he's moving back to Denver, got a job downtown. It's like, man, the whole family's like here. I know. It's the first time in 10 years. I know. That's man. That's actually a deal. I mean, I told you. I mean, I could I didn't know when it was all going down. I'm like, but it it I had a sense. It's like, yeah, man, we it's a blessing. Um, okay, confession. Nobody wants to listen. Probably as soon as I said that, a bunch of people hit. Yeah, I'm not gonna listen to this one. Um we're talking through the prayer of confession and the importance of it. And when we wrote about confession, we put this as the second, so it's adoration, then confession. And so I I think this is a really important topic to dive into confession, but I don't think people like to talk about it very much.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I honestly think that most of us uh when we think of the world word confession, we actually um have a different thought that comes to mind than what is often brought to mind in the Bible. Well, what say more about that? Well, if you if you talk to any therapist, police officer, lawyer, pastor, most people the word confession is used, but what they're actually doing is admitting what the other person already knows to be true. Oh wow. But we call it confession. I'm confessing that I robbed the bank. Yeah, we know we know because it's on video. Yeah, you're admitting to what we already know to be true. Yeah, confession is going into that space where they don't yet know. Wow. And that level of vulnerability to bring a friend in. I'm really struggling with suicidal ideation. You I'm really wrestling with hatred towards this person in my life. What you like like it's it's that I'm going first and stepping out and believing that both God and the other person that I am confessing can hold space and hold it with me. And I think again, similar to conversations on lament, I think lament and confession in a Western Christian church are the two least worked out spiritual muscles. Because in our world, confession has been connected to Catholicism.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Um, and we confess once that we need a savior, and then we never have to confess again. Wow. And what would Dallas say? You should have one grand confession every day because it's in those moments of both the vulnerability but to the acknowledgement of us a need for a savior, as well as the assurance of pardon that he has forgiven you, or he is with you, or he still loves you. Um, and that's so healthy for our formation.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

So that's I love that. Well, so let's work this out uh inside of what we're trying to do with this podcast, because I think we're still in the early phases of like figuring out what this thing wants to be. And I think the way I've thought about what we're doing with follow-up is there's a certain I there's a certain idea to all these things, whether it's confession or a spiritual practice, and even if you say spiritual formation, people think, oh, that's that's a stream. That's the you know, the it's it's like this uh oh that that that that's like an optional stream that you might go down. And so then if it's an optional stream, you start to categorize it and go, oh, well, that's for these types of people, right? Certain types of people. And I think I think what we're trying to do, the confession falls in that, is like say, oh, this is for every person. Like whether you like my grandfather worked in the still mills of granite city, Illinois, whether you're uh, you know, I am in a country western uh season of my life. I am wearing boots. So so I want to throw out love to my Western brothers and sisters here in the Colorado region in Douglas County. Um, but we're like for real, like whether you're someone who is educated or not, it we're talking to normal people, right? Like people who um tonight I will go watch a hockey game. And again, I'm dating this podcast, and I hope on the other side of it it goes well. But I watch sports, you watch sports, you and I, I I think we're I think we're quote unquote normal. There isn't a stream, like when you think about formation, and maybe we need a different word, I don't know, in the same way, like confession, people go, that but that's not a stream for me. That's like not what I do. That's that's for certain types of people. And I my hope is is that as we talk about these things, normal people who um are just living normal existences, quote unquote, understand like this is for all of us, like this is how we engage a life where we're walking with God all the time. Whether we call it the mainstream, these are things that as followers of Jesus, we keep using this sort of Dallas Willard idea that we're not trying to act a part, we're trying to become, right? We're trying to become um these things that that you know, where the the life of Jesus just kind of flows out of us, and confession is certainly a significant part of becoming.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Um tell me I know there's a story, and I know you're gonna tell it at some point in this podcast. I'm wondering if I should cue it up now. Okay, because I I suspect you're gonna tell the story of John Orpurg and Confession because that was actually such an important moment. So tell the story. I think that's a great pivot toward like, well, how how do you do this? Live a life where, as you said, like, hey, not admission, yeah, full transparency and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, so uh it's it's 2020, 2021. Definitely COVID, yeah, COVID season, and um, you know, John Ortbreak's been a mentor and to both of us actually, and um, and he and I have just um um just had a lot of like similar paths that we've walked, both on staff at the same church and the same role, same office, went through a difficult time together. And so uh we've just bonded in a unique way. And and when he, you know, kind of retired from Menlo, um, it was during COVID, and I had heard that there were only six people at his final service that were filming his last talk because they couldn't gather in California. And so a few of us started talking, we're like, we need to do something. And so Eric was one of them, and uh a couple of others, uh buddy Mike, and um, so we called a bunch of pastors, a bunch of friends, and we ended up throwing this uh gathering in Santa Barbara, which I have to tell the side note. Um, it was it was gonna golf in the morning, and then we were gonna go do this dinner, and then people would share a memory about John. So we go this golf, and um we have, I think it broke down to 31 people who could come. So it was basically eight foursoms, but uh one was just a group of three, and they had to take one extra person. So it was Eric, Mike, and me. Um, and then we add this random guy um into this foursome of golf. And so we're golfing, and we are we are hole two uh of golfing 18 holes, and it's a uh it's a par four, and so um a couple people on the second shot hit over the the green, and then two people hit short of the green. So Eric and this guy that we don't know um are hit over. Mike and myself hit short, and so Mike ends up hitting it, um, and he hits it long of the green and knocks this random guy that we don't know right in the head. Right in the head. Hits him right in the head. And every hole from that point on, this knot on his forehead keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point at hole 12, he's like, I think I'm concussed and have to go home.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Random guy on the floors and that wasn't the story, but I'm so glad you told that.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

That's the most rose part of the story. Oh, it's anytime I can tell a story. But so we we end up doing this dinner, it's outside. Yeah, after we have this meal, we end up going to this park and again set this up to to share a story about John. And John's like best friend is uh is a a therapist in Southern California, and he tells this story. He says, you know, eight years ago, John called me one day and said, Hey, I think I think Monday through Friday, every morning at I say 5 45 a.m. Um I need to call you and confess my sins from the day prior. And the guy who, you know, his occupation is listening and holding space for people, he's like, that sounds like a terrible idea. 5 45 a.m. Why would I do that? And and John just says, Hey, just think about it. Um, and I'll I'll call you back in like a week or two. So he he calls back, John calls back and says, Hey, have you thought more about it? And the therapist is like, this is this is a terrible idea. And and John's like, No, I actually think it'll be really, really formational for us to do this, and then to be reminded by each other that we've been forgiven. And uh the guy is listening to this and he actually's like gets a bit nervous for John, like, is there something in his life like maybe I just need to be a good friend and do this? Not thinking it's really formational, he's just doing it to be a friend, and then he just says, uh, in eight years' time, uh, we've only missed seven mornings. And Monday through Friday, 5 45 a.m. And we and he said, What I came to realize was um I would be about ready to make a decision or a choice or lean into temptation, and I would have to remind myself, oh, I'm gonna have to tell that to John tomorrow. And it became less sexy or less enticing, or there would be these moments where oh, I was short with my kids or short with my wife, or I thought this thought, or I made this purchase, and I shared it, and a couple questions were asked, and then I was reminded that I was forgiven. And I just like remember him saying these words, and I looked at these two guys in their 60s and I was like, they honestly want Jesus more than me. They are willing in their 60s to live with a level of vulnerability and trusting the other with those dark secrets, and yet, in a way, what was happening is it is it was losing its power by sharing it with another and confessing it to God and another. And it just um it just reminded me, and so I was walking out and I saw Mike and I'm like, Mike, we need to try this. And so for three months, we tried it. I think we I we skipped eight or nine days in those three months because I just slept through my alarm. And uh, but I would tell you, just even in that that act of going forward first, I was reminded of, I don't want to tell this. Yeah, I don't want to say this. I don't want to give him this ammunition, I don't want him to know this stuff about me. I I can't manage who he says this to, who he doesn't. I just found myself going, man, how often do so many of us hold on to stuff that is just within us when God has given us this great gift to bring this before Him and also be reminded of the power of the cross and the beauty of the resurrection and forgiveness. And so that was that Orbrick story still to this day uh has enticed me and moved me deeply of um the effort required um to do the work of formation and do it well.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

We have um we have a strained relationship with confession. Do you think that's a true statement that or maybe a non-existent relationship with confession?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Well, I I think that for most um have some sense of Catholic background. Okay. And so whether that was I'm just it became rote. Um, and there's something really, really beautiful in the sense of I think in that practice was trying to to to begin to share and and process through, not hold on to it. Um, but I think that some of it people see it's it's not a original to God thing, it was original to a denomination thing. And so I think sometimes there we've we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. I think too, um in our achievement or in our goal setting and climbing, we just don't want anything that's gonna slow us down. Um and then there's something that happens when you name something, you've got to do something about it. And I I think there's something where, oh man, I I don't know if I want to bring that into the light. And then I think a lot of it is we're just really good at managing um, you know, what's what's the the great AA line, you know. Uh upstairs in the church, they pray for and hope and desire for miracles to happen. And then down in the basement where AA is happening, miracles are taking place. Why? Because people are being honest and are leading from a place of vulnerability and confession. Um, but you are you are detaching yourself from those secrets and saying they don't have control, and someone might use that against me. Someone might tweet that, someone might share that, someone might gossip about that. And I think for many of us, uh we're so driven by the approval of man or protecting our image, then we are about actually being formed more and more into the image and likeness of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Well, image cultivation I I think is at an all-time high because of social media. Yeah. Right? Like image cultivation is in some ways what this whole these platforms exist on. And even the things that are um confessed, confessed, I'm using air quotes, those are even manicured. Yeah, right. So I might say some things, but I I do think we live in a culture right now where confession runs at odds with image management, right? Like to confess what is broken in me, so this is what is like absolutely busted in me, runs counter to the culture that influencers and you look, most people on social media aren't influencers, but most of us are, if you're using it, are are cultivating some sort of image, right? We're we're doing something to sort of say, well, this is who I am, this is aspirationally who I want to be. Here is you know the places that I'm going. And I think confession may run at odds with that, right? True confession. Um how do we how do we push against this? Knowing, I think what we're saying is the practice of true confession is part of uh becoming, not just acting like a follower of Jesus. How do we do this? What is the practice? What does it look like? How do we fight against a culture that really is, to your point? Like we fight image management. There's almost a shame around confession. Like if I say this, what are they gonna think about me? What will this do to me? Right? What do we do with that?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

I think it's really hard, you know, because we we want we want real beauty. We want natural beauty, but we really don't. Yeah. We we want real art. We don't really.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Um, you know, and it goes back to you know, having a a daughter and raising them in a culture where everything's been airbrushed and image has just been so changed, and and it's we're we're training people's brains to try to become something that's pretty much impossible. Um and and yet now it's just kind of this expectation. And and so what does what does what's actually real? I don't know if we actually know that. I don't know if we do. You know, and so I think that's like I think the the the question of like I keep I keep thinking about in the the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus is saying, and this is again it's just an ongoing problem. Look at those people who pray in public. Uh their reward is not in heaven, they've they've received their reward. If they're trying to be projected as holy, they got their reward. People are seeing them in the way that they wanted to be seen. That's just not an eternal reward. You want to be beautiful, you want to seem like you have it all together, you want to seem you got your reward, your 17 likes on Instagram. But that's not like the the reward of becoming based on that eternal vision of who God made and dreamed you up to be. I think we don't know how to how to do both, and we're trying to live in two two streams or two realities.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Well, that's true. I wonder how do you see uh the prayer of confession with the communal aspect of confession when we begin to dig past and say, all right, absolutely true. There's an image management, we we see uh the way in which culture treats image and likes and uh etc. And what we're making the case for is no, there's something about confession that exposes you, the brokenness of you, right? Um, we're saying, hey, this is a practice of becoming confession. This confession is to God, um, but there's also communal aspect of confession, right? There is something to that. How do those things play together in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, I mean, I think the the communal, um I hope always flows out of what has been in that individual conversation with God. Yeah, right. And sometimes it doesn't happen so black or white that way, but if I go back and I think the the great Hebraic prayer, hero is where the Lord is God, the Lord is one, Lord's a God. There's wholeness there. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, your body, your soul. Uh the soul is what integrates heart, mind, body. Sin is what disintegrates, heart, mind, and body. And so there's a moment where our head thinks one thing, our body feels something else, and our heart's saying something different. Right. It's in those disintegrated pieces that oftentimes, you know, in IFS language, parts work. Yep. Uh, there's a manager part that comes online, um, a protector part, exiles, all of this piece. What I've come to realize for me in confession is beginning to speak for this part that wants to come online. I'm feeling like I want people to, Lord, see me as smarter than I actually am. I feel like right now I want people to seem like I'm more important than I actually am. The more that I can speak for that part pre-making choices, but I can at least confess, and that this is rising within me, I think it helps me actually live into that soul of integration of heart, mind, body, rather than the I'm gonna pretend that they're not there, and then that manager part takes online, and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta post this or I gotta do this, or I gotta try to put this feeling of I'm not important or I'm powerless, that like that firefighter comes online, just I'm gonna take that out. But the more I can just be aware of that and just journal about that, speak to that, bring that before God, bring that before community. Um I have felt has been so so beneficial to my formation. Um rather than I screwed up again. Now let me bring to God and say, God, I'm sorry, and then bring it to my friends. Like, um it's it's more just recognizing I have these themes. Image management, I have these themes uh when it comes to to money. I have these these inklings that somehow just can it's easier for them to drive the ship rather than just be a part of um the conversation and uh learning to actually speak for them rather than from them um has been helpful in that. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

No, it totally does. I think about confession and I I do believe for me what makes it so challenging is so I have a pretty big people pleaser part. Yeah, and that people pleaser means I really do care what you think about me. Yeah, and I've told myself for lots of years there is there, this is the stuff I want you to see. The other stuff I don't think I do because if you see it, I I don't think you're really gonna care for the person behind it, right? Like you're you're really not gonna care much for this person. And sometimes the stuff I need to confess is the same a lot of us need to confess are aren't some sort of crazy sin. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. It's like just some brokenness in me that I'm I'm afraid to let anybody see, I'm afraid to let the Lord know. It's almost like I've been taught a fake it till you make it principle, in terms of like me, my character is like, oh no, no. Don't let God see it, don't bring it before him, just like grind it out, put on a veneer, and eventually you'll get there. And and I think um there's probably shame. There's uh I like your IFS language, there's definitely parts that are saying, no, no, no, you you can't let someone see this stuff. If you let God see this stuff, what are they gonna think about you? And what are you gonna do with that? Like knowing, walking around going, uh see, I think this is a foundational identity thing, right? Uh, the this practice of confession. And for me, it's not easy, man. This of all of the forms of prayer, it is the most challenging for me because I feel like I have so much tied up in it. I have like who who I want to be, who I am, what does God think of me? And yet it's one of those practices that, as I'm not pretending that it's easy, but I pray through a specific framework, right? Like I use the specific framework to engage with a prayer of confession, that this is me talking to God. It's not like rocket science, but for me, I really take really seriously Psalm 139 where it says, Search me, O Lord. And so I do spend time journaling. Okay. And I think this is the Ortberg story. There's this examine. If you know you're gonna jump on a call with someone, it does force you through the examination process, right? Okay. God, what in me? What how did I show up yesterday? How did I do this? What is the what is small and big? What's what's the brokenness in me? Like the courage to examine, just to look. I think the practice of examine as part of confession, we just don't do much of it, right? We just are like, well, I'm Popeye. I am what I am, and that's all that I am. And that's all I'll ever be, you know, and I don't have to say about that. And that examine piece is huge in my prayer of just going, Lord, search my heart, help me see some of these things that I've excused, that I don't know, the way I show up. How does someone experience me? Lord, just examine me. That prayer, that opening prayer. That's huge.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

There's a book that's been out for 30 years by Julia Cameron called The Artist's Way. And her her kind of initial homework to every person who goes through the class is the first thing that you do is free writes, three pages. She calls it morning pages. And she says, you can't show them to anyone because you the editor will come in mind. You just have to like, and it's it's the only way of like search me, but just writing it. Yes. And I I've always thought about that as just this thing of getting it out of searching. And sometimes that you're writing it and you're like, oh man, I got in this conversation with my kid, or I this person cut me off and like made me frustrated. And it was like really not about that person, but that person reminded me of this situation. And you're just writing, and and yet it's just you need that examine a place that you can get it out of you that's not where your brain is editing for public consumption. Yeah, it's just this search me, what comes to the surface. So you do this on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

No, I do this on a regular basis examine. So it's like I like the free ride. I've never actually done it that way, but I love that idea. I just know that the prayer of confession for me always starts with an examination, right? Like just a full body scan in the mornings, like, okay, um, Lord, just let me let me see. Let me see it. Let me be honest with myself. And I love that idea, free right that nobody sees, because if you can't be honest with yourself, you really can't be honest with God. You got to be honest with yourself. So it's the examine, and out of that is my confession, yeah, where I go, I see it. I I I see it, I see, I see what I did, I see how I showed up. And the confession part is honestly just saying out loud to God, I I'm really sorry. Yeah, that's not look, I take, I take wholeheartedly the journey of becoming, moving from acting to becoming. That is the whole goal of all this, right? Like to follow Jesus is to become something. That means then there's a bunch of stuff that probably has to get worked out, kicked out, you know, kicked to the curb. We just don't know it if we aren't willing to examine and then confess it. And so for me, my practice is um search me, I love the free right, then I confess it. And I I don't just examine and let it sit. I think there's something for me in this prayer that is key to owning it, to saying, I see it and I did it. I did that. Like that argument was my fault. I I am short-tempered. I have been short-sighted and selfish, and this make yourself confess it to God and say, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I've been hiding this thing. But there is a freedom in that. And for me, I again I just work this simple little framework where examine, confess it, and then I receive the grace for that day. I'm like, okay, you've forgiven me. I've confessed it. You for you said if I confess it with my mouth, right? That you are free and able to forgive me of my sins. So I'm really sorry, and I receive it. I don't that I'm not a worm, I'm not crummy, I don't stink, I'm redeemed, and I've confessed my sins to you, and you've forgiven me. And I that's like for me, it's that simple.

unknown 35:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

It it I think it brings up an amazing point because now remove confession from the conversation of formation and becoming. And you can beautifully do the Psalm 139 and say search me. Yeah. But I think there's this piece of a bypassing or a jump from the search me, if we even have that time, yeah, to like receiving forgiveness or receiving blessing. Yeah. But I'm often wondering if I can't confess it and I can't own it, what am I actually receiving? Right?

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

And so you have so you have um Sky Jathani, he's a brilliant, brilliant thought leader uh in Chicagoland. Uh, he just did this sermon and talking about the the difference between between resuscitation and resurrection. And he said that in the book, the Gospel of John, you have Lazarus who is resuscitated. You have Jesus who is resurrected, two tombs, and that in Western Christianity, we are trying to resuscitate. And what we're trying to do is add Christian platitudes or principles to an already filled life. We're gonna Jesus is gonna help you achieve, Jesus is gonna help you get better, Jesus is gonna help you do this, Jesus gonna help, and what he's actually wanting is full transformation. But often what we're doing is just trying to resuscitate. Um, and I think though, what you're describing is so key is and if if I'm gonna receive that forgiveness, that assurance of pardon, I gotta own it and I gotta confess it. And I think that's just uh so, so beautiful. But man, that speeds up that becoming.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Well, he to be able to say you fully love me means you have to fully know me. If you don't fully know me, then how do you look at God and say he he fully loves me? Of course he does, but there's something in like this reality that you can look at God and say, Okay, I've I've examined and confessed, you fully know me. It doesn't change the fact that he does, it just makes you aware of it when you go, you you know me, you know all this stuff I've been hiding, and you fully love me. Yeah, there is freedom in confession, and we know this hiding. The hiding is so bad for your neurosystem, for the way that you're wired, pretending is so bad. And honestly, I used to say this sometimes Christianity, we treat it like a script, right? Where you act out the script. Problem is, is what happens when the when the play is over? Well, you don't know what to do with your hands. You're like, well, what am I supposed to do now? Yeah, we're trying to move off the script. Yeah, what we're trying to say is like, look, part the bringing who you are, saying this is who I am, this is how I've failed, I see it, and I'm sorry, allows you then to look back and go, and in spite of this, yeah, you love me. Yeah, and there is such freedom and beauty in that to know, and I actually think that it it starts to lead to a more corporate confession. But look, if you can't confess to God, you're not gonna be able to confess to a friend. Um, but I I think there's something beautiful in confessing our sins to one another. We're called to do this, where we say, no, no, no. It strengthens community, right? This this strengthens it doesn't weaken it. And sometimes our parts tell us, hey, if you say this, God's not gonna love you, and they're not gonna love you. And what we find is the opposite is true, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:27

That uh in spite of my failures, yeah, I'm loved. I love I love the way that uh you map this out. I the I'm like so visual, and so the way um He's drawing right now, cards, yeah, is uh I I have like the stick figure guy that I'll typically draw, like in my journal. Yeah, and there'll be an arrow up and it will say God. There'll be an arrow to the right that will say, you know, neighbor. Um there'll be an arrow to the left that will say creation, and then there will be kind of like a underneath it, I'll just write me. Yeah, and the question I will look at whenever I'm thinking about uh the act of confession confession is was there a rupture in the last 24 hours with God? And I just I just write it down. Was there a rupture with a neighbor? Someone in my lay life, and I'll just write it down. Was there a rupture with creation? Did I is there something that I participated in that I just didn't help, you know? And these are this probably the fewest. Um but I still just try to think about it. And then with me, my own soul, yeah. Was there a rupture? Then from there, I choose probably one or two, two tops, and I I think, okay, health is moving from rupture to repair. Now, I start to ask myself, how do I move to repair? What's amazing is what often happens within me because I am human and I'm defensive. What I will start to do is go, but God, my intent was. Yeah, right. My intent was to try to help. My intent was to try to provide for my family. My intent was, and and it's amazing how many of us jump first to defending our intent, and you just alluded to this so beautifully, rather than feeling the impact of our actions or choices or decisions that the other person felt. And I I hate sitting with the impact of what I said, what I did, and how it affected my wife, my kids, my staff, my friends, my community, my own soul. And and even if my intent, even if my intent was in the purest of motive motives, I don't know, my impact was real. But it's when I sit in that impact, I can't, it gives me the fastest pathway possible to repair because I can then fully realize, not from a defensive way, oh yeah, but that wasn't my intent, babe. Yes, but that Emerson, that was my son, that was not my no, no, no. This was my impact. I can see that impact, and I can feel how my choice and my decision hurt you. Then I can confess to that. I can own that, I can sit with that, um, and it's in that that I say, uh, even if that person does not forgive me in the way I want to be forgived, I can own it and know that God forgives me.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

That's so huge because I think for us to really experience forgiveness, uh I've I've experienced similarly where it's like, well, that's not what I meant to do. Exactly, exactly. Right, that's not what I meant to do. So uh getting comfortable with this reality, okay. Yes, I'm not saying intent doesn't matter, because intent does matter. But the reality is I do a lot of things where I intended for it to be for good, and it really hurts someone. And to own that hurt, to own that impact, that is such an important part of the process. Not being afraid to own the impact and go, Oh, I hurt you. I say this all. The time I say we are both victim and perpetrator all the time. Yeah, right. We are getting hurt and we are hurting people, and in any interaction, we might be doing both, right? We we can't own any of the other stuff. We have to own our impact in the situations, and that is not easy. I'm not pretending that it is easy, but I think this is what confession allows us to start moving toward owning our impact. And when we own our impact, the truth is healing can start to happen.

unknown 44:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

And when you don't own the impact, you can't really get healed. Healing doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

And I think what's amazing is you will through this little exercise, like what it taught me so good, was if I'm a defender of my intent rather than an owner of my impact, if the defender of my intent is greater than the owner of my impact, I will be resistant towards confession because I have to protect my to protect. Bro, Carter, that's so big. If I actually can own my impact, what it what it demonstrates in both practice and you know orthodoxy and orthopraxy, what it demonstrates, at least for me, is that I trust that God sees me, hears me, forgives me. If I don't, I have to go, no, no, no, I have to see me. I have to protect me. Yeah, I have to that's huge. Does that make sense? No, that's huge. And and I think whenever I feel that resistance to defense, I'm and and then and then back up. If this is why in so many churches when something has happened publicly, the pastors haven't even been trained to actually own, I'm sorry, gang. Yeah, for how I heard you. Um because this Asian as Dallas says, like we said earlier in the podcast, one grand confession. We should have these practices when you are practicing the Psalm 139 way to search me, to be able to own it, to confess, and to receive. You can now look at someone in your team and your congregation, you can look at your spouse, your kids, your friends, and go, I don't have to be perfect. Yeah, God loves me still. But what I do have to do is when there's a rupture, do my part to make a repair. And the and the the more spiritually mature people understand the only way you're gonna get repair is through confession. And we've all had someone try to defend their way out in a faux apology. I'm really sorry, but that wasn't my intention. That wasn't my intention. That wasn't what I was trying to do. I'm really sorry that you feel that way. Um, but so I'm gonna minimize the impact because that's that's your response. You you took it too seriously. I'm I'm so sorry. I just had a hard day. I'm gonna dismiss my actual agency in the words that came out of my mouth or the actions that I and again, you listen to most marital conflicts, most cultural, like organizational team, even within churches or the marketplaces, like people don't even know how to apologize. No, and and again, it comes down to I'm afraid to own my impact.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Golly, that's huge. I I think we could probably have uh a lot more conversation on this. Here's the reality: I don't want to miss what you just said. The part of confession is really understanding you don't have to defend yourself, and because of that, it can let look, uh, what was my impact? Not your intent. What was your impact? Own the impact. This is part of confession, bring it to God and then to each other. I just think it's such a beautiful practice because we know on the other side of it. This is how healing does actually happen. Communities get healed, and we know what happens when you can't own your impact. Communities stay stuck, and I have failed at this. I mean, I own there's my confession. This is as a pastor, it's sometimes easier to do in my personal life than in the professional life because you're oh no, no, that's not what I meant. But that doesn't necessarily matter. What matters is what actually happened. And so my hope is that this will be an inspiration. It's not this isn't an easy prayer. This is the hardest of the the five in this series for sure, I think.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Can I tell you a story? Yeah, totally. I just had this happen. I was I was in a meeting, and I had called the meeting because we were having a larger event at church, and I wasn't sure if we were all on the same page. So I I kind of voice memo at a couple friends on staff and just said, hey, I'm having a little bit of low grade anxiety. I'm not really sure. I'm still new to the role, I'm like not really sure how this is going down. And and so a meeting gets called, and I show up 10 minutes late because I was in other meetings. Um staff was kind of feeling like, oh man, this meeting just got called like today. Like, are we in trouble? What's happening? Da-da-da. And I and I I uh I have come from environments where even if it's in the 11th hour, you stay and you make it great for the congregation at the expense of your own personal soul, time, family, blah, blah, blah. So we're having this conversation, and someone says, you know, hey, it's it's Wednesday. I'm not sure that we can change it uh in time for the weekend. And I respond, no, I don't want you to change it. There's a part of me that does. But there's but I in that moment I really and I felt full agency, I don't want to. And then I said these words. I said, but if I was blank and I named the name of someone I worked with, I would make you stay. Because in that moment, what I was trying to say was I was hearing this person say, Oh, it's Wednesday, I don't think I can do it. Totally. And I was flooded with memories where I never even could have ever said that phrase. Oh, yeah, and I was trying to say, Oh, that's not the culture that we are. But I said those words, but if I was blank, I would have. They don't have the same experience that I have, right? They don't know my intent. What they heard was a threat. Oh, sure. And what they heard was I was aligning myself with someone who had abused power, yep, and this staff person came to me with tears in their eyes saying, I've never experienced you to be this kind of person. Why did you use their name?

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

And I don't I didn't like that. I didn't like that part of you. I didn't like and Eric I I literally started crying in front of like one of my staff people because I I literally was like in my mind, everything inside me was the intent, that wasn't my intent. That wasn't my I wanted to defend my intent at all costs, and at the end of the day, it did not matter. It didn't matter, did it? I said those words, yeah, and I my impact of those words that I said uh made a staff person have to think and wrestle through all of the stuff, and then all of a sudden, I left that meeting and I couldn't forgive myself. I went home and I told my wife, and my wife was like, You did what? Why did you say that? Why would you align yourself with that? Why? And I was like, This isn't helping me. I need you to have my back. And and she's like, she's like, she's right, that staff member's right, and I'm grateful that you were safe enough for her to come and tell you that. And I had to go back to that person and every other person in that meeting and say, and some of them, they didn't it didn't hit them like it did this person. It did not matter when you have that, when you realize the impact of your words, how do you go? And and I had to sit with God and say, Oh my god, God, I I I don't want this to be true of me. Why did I? And and it then this icky part came up in me, going, well, you you kind of wanted them to to still figure it out, huh? And I was like, Oh man. And you you kind of wanted them to know what you could have done. Yeah, of course, and you kind of wanted people to have to do whatever for your vision, and all of a sudden, all of all of the ick within me, even if it's only six percent, nine percent, three percent, you add that up, was living within me, and then going, God please I I don't want that to be true of me, and then to feel that forgiveness, but then to have to go actually share that then with the other people. And here's the hardest part though, here's the hardest part for me, and I think this is a little bit of the resistance and why we do a flyover when it comes to confession, yeah, is that relationship with that staff person who was brave and honest with me um is different. And I dinged that relationship, and it's gonna take time to rebuild that trust. And I believe with this person, we're gonna get there and it's gonna be stronger. Um, I think we're good. But it's it's it when you realize something that you did, all of a sudden there's that rupture. Just because you confess, you can't expect the repair to be like that. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

And Steve, I think this is so important. It's like, look, it actually, as leaders, can be easier to just not confess and to not try to repair, and to just say that's that is the great challenge with confession is yes, there is a forgiveness with God, but when you talk about disruption with a neighbor, the confession then forces us into a process, and that actually for some of us will be way more hard, more challenging than just talking to God about it, right? Right, you gotta step in and acknowledge I didn't do this right, I messed this up, and um and you know they they do talk about it, might take longer to repair, um, but relationships that repair do have a there is a strengthening to the relationship, and you got to go through the process and repair, can't ignore it, pretend it didn't happen. That's right, but it does build strong relationships, but you have to be willing to walk into what that might look like, and that's hard. Yeah, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

So I just say that just because if any of you like this is this is real for both Eric and me. Like we this is something, but it does take time on that. But to your point, I'm glad you you say that. Um, I've seen it happen a handful of times. It's stronger, it's stronger. Um, and I've also seen it happen where other people's trauma um affects them to go, I can't, I can't. I and you know what? You're not responsible, you're responsible for that's right, the the search me, the confess, the own, the receive, and that moving forward. And if you can do that and stay, as I will often stay, stay safe plus consistent again and again, over and over on repeat, makes you worthy of trust. If you're consistently unsafe, you're not worthy of trust. And if you're inconsistently uh safe, you're not truly worthy of trust. Your job is just to go, no, I'm gonna be safe, I'm gonna keep showing up and be consistent. I believe over time this is restorable, redeemable, um, and the relationship will matter. So um that's so good. Yeah, that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Well, I think this is such an important conversation, um, and grateful for you sharing a bit of your heart. And uh, for those of you that want to find out more about prayers and confession and really prayers in general, we have a prayer guide you can access in the show notes. It's an easy way to adopt a framework for all these prayer practices, which at the end of the day really do bring you closer to God. It's restorative uh in our relationship with Him and with the world around us. So um, thanks, bro. Appreciate you. And until next time, race in peace.