Is Social Media Killing Connection? (Ep. 9) Artwork

Marriage Basecamp

Every great adventure starts at Basecamp. This podcast is your guide to a Christ-centered marriage, offering honest and transparent conversations on love, communication, intimacy, conflict, and faith. With openness at the core, we explore the essentials that help couples not just survive, but thrive, on the journey of a lifetime.

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Marriage Basecamp

Is Social Media Killing Connection? (Ep. 9)

March 21, 2026 • Robert Conn • Episode 9

0:00 | 1:11:54

Summary: Join us for a candid conversation bridging generational perspectives on marriage. We sit down with Aubrey and Logan Powers (married 6 years) to discuss the unique challenges facing younger couples today, from social media's impact on relationships to navigating emotional maturity and long-term commitment.

Guest Bios

Aubrey Powers - Mental health therapist and co-host of "Probably Bad Advice" podcast
Logan Powers - Work-from-home dad and freelance graphic designer

Key Topics Discussed

Modern Marriage Challenges

How technology and social media shape relationships
The pressure to present perfect marriages vs. reality
Dating apps and digital communication
Phone boundaries in marriage

Generational Differences

Comparing marriage pressures across generations
The "it's about me" culture vs. commitment
How modern therapy language is used (and misused)
Traditional vs. reversed gender roles

Relationship Foundations

Why emotional maturity matters more than emotional vocabulary
The danger of making divorce an option
Building felt safety in marriage
Racing to the bottom to serve one another

Practical Marriage Rhythms

Weekly marriage check-ins
Date nights and intentional time together
Dreaming together about your future
Building community with other couples

Navigating Hard Seasons

Post-partum intimacy challenges
Processing external family dynamics
Working through trauma individually and together
When to seek pastoral counseling vs. clinical therapy

Notable Quotes

"I think therapy words are just so thrown around... it's like using diagnosis as an excuse." - Aubrey

"As long as divorce is an option, someone will use it as a weapon." - Robert

"We're not placing more weight into what some random person on the internet tells you over your spouse." - Logan

"Awareness is the first step. Congratulations. But there are multiple steps after that." - Aubrey

Summit Challenge

Turn off your TV, put your phone down, and sit face-to-face with your spouse for a genuine conversation. Ask:

How have I loved you well this week?
What's one way I can grow?
What do we want our next season to look like?

Support the Marriage Basecamp podcast with a monthly gift: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2544264/support

Ask a question

Support the show

Submit your own question: podcast@marriagebasecamp.com

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Holy matrimony over up to break. Honestly the corner stuff. Over to break. Transparency the pond. Welcome to the base camp.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

Hey guys, welcome back to the Marriage Base Camp podcast. I'm Shelly and here with Robert. And before we get started, we would love for you to consider um supporting us with the monthly gift. You can find more information on the show notes about that.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Yeah, today we have a treat for you guys. We have two special guests on today, Aubrey and Logan Powers. And I'm going to let you guys introduce yourselves. But we've known Aubrey and Logan for a few years now. We have some mutual friends. We're also friends with your parents. So shout out, Joe and Christy. You guys have been to a few marriage conferences that we've led, and you you guys always ask really good questions when you're there. And so we thought it'd be great to have you guys on the podcast to just talk about marriage and marriages and your marriage and our marriage and all those things. And so to start, introduce yourselves.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Sure. Well, my name's Aubrey.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I'm Logan.

SPEAKER_04 1:26

And we're married. No, we're just kidding. That's it.

SPEAKER_08 1:29

That's the end of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

I am a mental health therapist.

SPEAKER_08 1:33

And I'm uh work from home dad and freelance graphic designer.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

There you go. We have one daughter. Her name's Tilly. Yep. Matilda. But we call her Tilly.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

How old is she now? She turns three in June. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Three. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

That was always She's a three major.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

That's what I call her.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

A three.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

We're a Sour Patch kid. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Threes were always hard for us.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Yeah. It wasn't the terrible twos. It was the terrible threes.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

It'd be interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Now, Aubrey, you have some podcast experience. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04 2:08

I do. Yep. I started a podcast like a year ago called Probably Bad Advice. And by two licensed therapists.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Which, by the way, is awesome. That's a great name.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

It really is.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

And what do you what do you guys normally talk about?

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Oh, all sorts of things. I mean, we start out kind of just talking about like therapy things, just giving resources to people. We're also two moms who are working moms, so we talk a lot about being a mom, um, share some of our own personal stories. We've had our husbands on the podcast to talk about hot takes. Those are always the most popular ones.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

We did listen to that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Yeah. There's a few back from the beginning where they talk about conspiracy theories and just random things. It's craziness. It's so fun having them on there sometimes. And yeah, sometimes we interview other random people, and we we don't really have a main. We're always always talking about marriage. No, it's all over the place. We're all over the place. But it works for us.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Yeah, my guess is because you probably deal with all sorts of things. And so did she leave anything out? Anything uh special about you guys or interesting?

SPEAKER_08 3:14

I'm surprised she lets me and Travis jump on it. Yeah. It's pretty hairy sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Now, just for context for this episode, uh, tell us how long you guys have been married.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

Six years.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Six years.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

We have been married for almost 29. May will be 29 years. Awesome. So just so everybody kind of knows that's the the the demographic here.

SPEAKER_07 3:39

We're old.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

I didn't say it. You said it. So so here's the first question we want to know. How has that first season of marriage been for you guys? That first six years.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Yeah, we were just talking about this, and I was like, I think I would break it into two seasons just because the first three years we didn't have a kid, and then the next three we have. Yep. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

I'd say the pre-Matilda, post-Matilda.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Yeah, pretty much. I don't know. I think the first half of that was challenging in that like just learning our personalities together, um, and navigating like external family things. So like my family's very involved and very close. And I'd say your family is I mean, obviously they love each other, but they're more individual individualistic.

SPEAKER_08 4:34

Yeah, maybe that's the right word.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

You know, more of the I wouldn't I don't know passive is the right word, but like I don't want to overstep.

SPEAKER_08 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

You do your own thing where my family is like, oh no, we're all in.

unknown 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Completely comfortable overstepping.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 4:48

Yeah. We didn't grow up having family time per se a whole lot, you know. But yours definitely did.

SPEAKER_07 4:55

Yes, they did. Yes, they did.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

So are you saying the the first three, the first season, first three years were that was kind of challenging harder.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

I think it was harder than it is now.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

Yeah. Like, I feel like I'm talking a lot, but so cut me off whenever. But like before we even got married, the topic of um holidays was always the most challenging. I think Logan said once, we almost didn't get married because we couldn't figure out what we were gonna do in those kinds of things. And then I think too, just I'm very close to my dad and a lot like my dad. And some of like when we got engaged, there's some rough things with me and my dad when we got engaged, um, that kind of added to the struggle of those things.

unknown 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 5:42

We also pretty early on started off marriage as co-workers in ministry too. Okay. So that was like another layer of the year.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

What were you guys doing?

SPEAKER_08 5:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

I did youth ministry at a church.

SPEAKER_08 5:52

And I did communications and their graphics and that type stuff. So and I volunteered with youth. So Aubrey was kind of my boss in a weird way. It's like a volunteer level. Yeah. It was really interesting dynamics.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Is that where you guys met and sort of kindled that?

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Yeah. I mean, basically, there was a girl that I mentored in high school who invited me to a game night at a local coffee shop. And I went and met Logan there. And I guess from that moment he was like, Wow, she's really cute. I'm gonna marry her someday. And I was like, Okay. Okay. Went six months without talking. That's awesome. Then January 1st, he was like, You wanna go get coffee? And I was like, Yeah, sure. Thinking it was just we're two ministry people. And he friend who introduced us was like, No, that's a date. And I was like, Oh, um, okay. Here we are.

SPEAKER_05 6:46

Well, what is something that you've discovered about marriage that no one warned you about? We were talking about that.

SPEAKER_08 6:53

I don't remember, Hugh. I think uh what I said was the the outside stuff and how much that can impact your marriage. So we were talking about how like when you're dating people just tell you about the dynamics between you and the other person, but you don't really talk about the external, like your parents dying or whatever, like your siblings getting in trouble or family holidays, things like that, like that you have to process with this other person. I think that for us has been really difficult a lot.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah, especially the last year for sure. I think for me it was probably the conversation about like physical intimacy after having a kid, so postpartum, but then also throwing on top like the traumatic birth that we had in navigating all of that. I'm like, I wish somebody would have, you know, at least told me a little bit, you know. My parents were very open about talking about sex. They were very open, but not about that one, I guess. We never got on that topic.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

So you didn't get the manual.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

No, yeah, there's one of those out there.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

I guess after we're seeing it. I never got it. Yeah. Oh man. So we've got some questions that hopefully will not only highlight some of our generational differences and pressures, but also maybe spark some great discussion. So, first one, when you look at couples your age, somewhere around where you guys are, what are they struggling with that previous generations? I'll go ahead and throw us in there, maybe have not faced, or at least haven't faced in the same way.

SPEAKER_05 8:32

For okay, how old are you guys? So just for context. I turned 30 this year. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

And I turned 31. Okay. So about 20 years difference.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Yeah. Right off the get, uh technology, yeah, social media. I think that's the biggest one of the biggest differences is it's just at your fingertips. Like and that wasn't you had I don't know if you, I'm putting you in a category, but did you have landlines when you were kids? Okay. We didn't have cell phones.

SPEAKER_07 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:02

Sorry.

SPEAKER_07 9:03

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 9:05

It was connected to a wall. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Yeah. The the the the most radical thing we had was a pager.

SPEAKER_05 9:13

Yes, we did have a pager.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

And Shelly and I had uh, I had a pager when I went off to college.

unknown 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

And so she would text me. We had like a code system. And and you know, number, code system, each number meant something else. And not all of them, quite frankly, were God honored. I'll be truthful with you. That's awesome. But but she we, you know, we would just, you know, it's just kind of our way of communicating.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

We had pagers to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

Wow. Very good. Cutting edge. Varied.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:42

Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

So yeah, technology, yeah. I think we're gonna get into that a little bit more. Um I know when when we grew up, when when we were, you know, young and and married, people worked really hard to present that they had the perfect marriage. That was sort of like the that's what you do.

SPEAKER_07 10:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

You present that. Do you think younger couples today feel that same pressure to present that their relationship is being all together and great? Is that the same?

SPEAKER_04 10:11

I I think it depends. Like at least from my counseling brain, like if I work with faith-based c clients versus secular ones, I I think it can be very different. I think when you add God to the picture, like I think that that some of that foundation is still present. I think with the maybe more secular, more worldly couples, um, I think there's just a lot of this, like, oh well, I could leave marriage whenever I want to, kind of a thing. Like it's not it doesn't hold the same weight. Interesting. In my opinion.

SPEAKER_08 10:42

Yeah, I think there's an opportunity for people to embrace their perceived reality as their truth. So like if you know their kids they want to raise their kids cussing, that's okay because you can manufacture that into your truth and your worldview, and that's okay. Like I think people today have the opportunity to make everything okay, everything's un you know, admissible, and uh, you know, you can yeah, you can twist it to to you're always right. There's always a talking head online telling you why you're right and why how you're raising your kid is perfectly okay. I think that's a real dangerous game though.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Yeah. So it's like taking that idea of creating this picture perfect family, and it's now more like, well, what's perfect for me doesn't have to be perfect for you because it's perfect for me and it works for me. And I don't care what you think. Yeah, it does for me.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah, okay. So so they're not so much chasing these societal norms, they're just making up new norms for themselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

I'd say so. Which I think is in to some degree is chasing society because I know one of the questions later is about like modern therapy and stuff like that. But it's like just this idea of, well, it's about me. And if I don't feel fulfilled, then I can just leave, you know.

SPEAKER_05 12:01

Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Okay, we talked about this, but I'm really interested. How do you think the social media dating apps, just the constant digital communication shapes relationships? Like the whole dating app. That's a whole, I don't know if that's new. That's very new.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

I don't want to say it's new, but it's it's newer.

SPEAKER_05 12:22

Yeah, there were no dating apps when we well, and we've come across some couples who use dating apps to and they're married. Oh sure. But it's almost like a it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

Because it's almost a generational thing. We've because if we talk to I would say anybody under 30, we're like, How'd you meet? Oh, on such you know, such and such.

SPEAKER_07 12:42

Yeah, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Not a big deal at all. Anybody like over, you know, 30 in their 40s, especially 50s, they're like, oh, we um well see. What happened was we met on this dating now, and it's almost like they're ashamed. It's very much shamed. It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_05 12:56

It's so crazy to me. But how does he like communication-wise, is social media affecting relationships, do you think?

SPEAKER_08 13:05

Or I think it does. I think it gives you the opportunity to avoid your spouse or your partner or whatever if things are going bad. But I also think it opens the door for people to think divorce or other options are an easy step, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

Yeah, I think of like like the algorithm, you know, like our phones are always listening to us, whether we like it or not, you know, and it sometimes it just is so weird. You're thinking about vacuums and ads for vacuum show up. But it's it's the same with like if if I'm mad at Logan or something, like, you know, I'll get on social media because I'm avoiding, because I'm an avoidant attachment person, right? Like I'm avoiding this conflict, and I get on there and I see this video about someone avoiding conflict, and they tell me exactly what I want to hear. And then I sit and I stew in my mess even more.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

Yeah, you know, and then that's all you see for the next two days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Yeah, it just continues to fill into that like selfish aspect of things, you know. And I think like we were talking earlier of like social media and those kinds of things can just open up for a whole bunch of bad things, you know. I can't tell you how many times there have been like a thing where it's like, you know, Logan's like, I am so careful about what I look at on social media, but sometimes like pornography will just show up and he's like, I don't know how that's there. Yeah, he'll go in and he'll, you know, reset it so it goes away and then it's like it's still there. He's like, I don't understand, you know? Yeah, it's like it's just because you're it's inevitable.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

And they know I uh I downloaded what's the TikTok. I downloaded TikTok a while back because you know, kids were all like sending me videos. I'm like, I can't watch it. Yeah, like literally, just because it knew somehow that I was a middle-aged man, the things it was showing me. I'd be like, Shelly, like, do you see this stuff? No, she's like, No, I've never seen that. Yeah, so I lasted like six hours on TikTok. And I was like, okay, I can't do this. This is not good for me.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Yeah, it was crazy. I don't have I did have TikTok for a little bit too. And it was like, how do you not like I don't know, there's the the algorithm thing, like you can go into TikTok and like say no, or I don't know, yeah, but you can say not interested.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

But it still comes back, right? Which some of that is based on like the friends you follow and what videos they like. So if you have someone you're following that that's crazy, all of that stuff, it will show up more, which is really weird. So yeah, on Instagram, you can actually see like it'll pop up, but like there was once a video that was probably really inappropriate. My brother liked it, and I was like, Oh, my brother liked that? I should probably send that to him. Be like, what are you watching, bro? That's amazing. Get off the internet. I see. Sorry, Lewis.

SPEAKER_08 15:41

Oh, geez. Instagram back in the day used to show you every single post that people liked. I remember one time a guy I knew was liking really just blatantly pornographic stuff, and I was like, Man, I I can see that you're liking this. Like Instagram shows me, do you want me to be your accountability partner? And he blocked me. Yeah, and then Instagram realized that was a happening. Yeah, a big no. But I remember the days when you could see everything people liked on Instagram, and it was pure chaos. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Yeah, but you're right. When to your point, like if you're in an argument or whatever, disagreement, and then you get on Instagram or whatever, and it's just feeding into the your story. Yeah, that's not gonna help your communication.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

No. And I know too, like we've had to have conversations about like phone use in our bedroom, you know, because like it's my alarm, and I am terrible and I make the excuse, it's my alarm. I have to have it. Made that for years. Even when I was a kid with my dad, and he told me, nope, phones go on the counter. I'm like, nope. You know, but like there were times in our marriage, like obviously I've figured out why, but like I would choose to scroll on my phone and my back would be towards Logan to avoid like intimacy. Cause I'm like, I I don't want that, you know? But it's like we've had to have multiple conversations and we both still really suck at it. But you know, at least we know we're talking about those boundaries around those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_05 17:05

That's huge.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Yeah. I think the biggest motivator is now that we have a kid and it's very eye-opening every time she's like, Mommy, I watch a movie. I watch a movie, and I'm like, No, I don't want you to do that. And I'm like, we need to put our phones down, you know?

SPEAKER_07 17:18

Yeah.

unknown 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

We we did this thing uh many years ago when our kids were little. Because we we get up in the mornings and we try if we can, you know, have a moment where we drink our coffee, read our Bible, stuff like that. But we were on our phones on like the Bible app. And then we realized, you know, our kids don't know we're reading our Bible.

SPEAKER_07 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

And selfishly we're like, we want them to see us reading the Bible. So we started using our real Bibles. And uh there's nothing wrong with reading your Bible on your phone, but it was like we were just doing that to help them see, because I mean we could have been on Facebook or whatever, yeah, they wouldn't have known. So Aubrey, as a therapist, we're interested in your opinion here. So there's way more language out there today in in the space of therapy and emotional intelligence and all that, which we think is a great thing. But when you think of younger couples today, or even couples that have been married, you know, six, ten years somewhere, like are they actually more emotionally aware or they do they just know more of the language?

SPEAKER_04 18:25

They just know more of the language. Yeah, and nine times out of ten, uh like I can't tell you how many times I hear the word narcissist thrown around. I'm like, they're probably not a diagnosed narcissist. Right. It's actually very rare. They're probably just a genius. Yeah, like, you know, like they just need Jesus. They need people. I'm just kidding, don't be worried by well, that's really wrong. But you know, like that word is so overused specifically, you know. Like, no, maybe he's just he's just got some anger and some selfish issues, or she does, you know, but it's like I think therapy words are just so thrown around. I was about to say, what are some other examples of like I mean, everyone and their dog and their cat is diagnosed with autism because they've diagnosed themselves. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Um they took the the radzar test or whatever, and they're like, I'm you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah, for sure. Or like, I'm trying to think, like everyone is is anxious and depressed. And so then they start to use all of those things or any diagnosis as a way to just like what's the word? Like validate why, or kind of reassurance as to why they act the way they act. So back to that whole excuse. Okay, the way that they act. So it's like, well, I'm gonna avoid an attachment style. So I'm just gonna continue avoiding, you know. But it's like to me, it's the same with um personality tests. Like they're great, they're good tools, but like Logan and I both talked about like when we worked at the church, like I'm an eight and a two. And so, like in that, I now looking back, I'm like, oh, I was always told I'm an eight, I'm a challenger. And so I would purposely find ways to live out that because I'm like, well, I'm a challenger. I get I guess I better live that way. Yeah, and then just creates this toxic cycle that you know you get into. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

It also creates agreements that that can be used against you if if if we lived in a spiritual world, for example, and there were enemies who like to use that stuff. Yeah, it creates these. I as you as you were saying that, I was thinking how ironic that is. Because if you took that same excuse and put it in the realm of, say, physical abuse, yeah, and a husband who's like, Well, I'm sorry, I'm just I I I I have a small temper or my, you know, I just lash out a lot. As if that's as if that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Okay, I didn't know that. But that's exactly what they do. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it's just like a sense of just excusing that bad behavior when it's like, no, we we need to stop this.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

And even if you know, hey, I I do have whatever, yeah. That's not an excuse. That's great that you know it, but now you need to do something about it. Yes. Yeah. Two different things. Yeah.

unknown 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Awareness is the first step. Yes. But there are multiple, multiple steps after that to get to that's interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Yeah. Um so do you guys have any like um couples assume their marriage is broken when actually they're just lacking good skills? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 21:23

Like, is that a we think that's us, probably honestly, about the technology use.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 21:28

Of like, we're I think our marriage is super healthy and strong, but when we are on our phones, we're so unintentional with one another that after like a week of dude scrolling in our free time when Tilly was like asleep or whatever, you start to wonder is our marriage even that good? But it probably is when we put down our phones and have like an intentional conversation with one another more.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Yeah. I would definitely agree with that. I think yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:53

With the skills, do you think being a therapist? Because you know the skills, do you think that has helped?

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Why don't you tell them what you think? Because I thought that was really insightful earlier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 22:03

I mean, we were looking over your guys' questions to get us brainstorming about this. And one of them was if Aubrey feels more pressure to being a wife and a therapist. But I think I put more pressure on Aubrey because she like early on when Tilly was born, she's like, hey, I raised like or I hoped uh watched these three nanny boys for so many years that it feels like I helped raise these kids. So like Aubrey always has always had the skill in like being with little kids and stuff. So she's like when Tilly was born, she's like, Oh, I know how to do all this stuff, and I didn't. So she would just talk about, oh, this is what a kid's going through developmentally in their brain, and here's why kids lash out, blah blah blah. And I was like, I don't know any of this stuff. So it's like I keep looking towards Aubrey for answers. And sometimes it's like I put so much pressure on her to have that answer, like, oh, you know, so why am I even gonna why should I even try when you know the right thing to do? Like, I'll just watch you do it. Yeah, and sometimes it's like before this, I was like, Aubrey, sometimes you just need to let me fail so I can learn. Like, and then tell me later, that's not the right thing you're gonna do, like you should have done. Right. That's good that you tried in the field so you can see that wasn't right, you know, versus going, well, you know the answers, just show me how to do it and I'll do it, you know?

SPEAKER_05 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:16

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Well, do do you feel pressure to kind of have answers and and whatnot when it comes to your marriage?

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Oh, yeah. I think as a therapist, I think there's definitely that like imposter syndrome or whatever. It's like, you know, with Logan's own mental health, and I'll let you speak to that however you want. But like in those seasons, I definitely have noticed I'm like, I'm a therapist. I work with people who struggle with this all the time. Why can't I figure it out? Like, I'm I'm failing as a wife or as a therapist. Like, if I can't help my own husband, how the heck am I supposed to help these clients, you know? Which I think is just the to speak to the different dynamics of, you know, I'm a wife in that moment. I'm not the therapist. That's not my role. Really, yes, there are things I can do that help in that. But yeah, I definitely think there's there is that pressure. I think too, the pressure for me, at least with the parenting stuff, comes from like working to reparent myself, you know. Like I grew up, I'm the oldest of seven. So, like, you know, my dad didn't know the Lord when I was born and he had a lot of anger issues. And so I saw a lot of that sin and that mess in that time. And so I have to like reparent myself, you know, and work through those triggers and all of that. But there's definitely this like the eight in me or whatever is like, well, I'm just gonna control it because I want it done the right way, and I don't want to traumatize Matilda. So if you're gonna yell, I'm gonna tell you, don't do that. But then I yell and I'm like, gosh, I feel like a crappy parent, you know, and it's just like this whole cycle of figuring out and being aware and working through all of that pressure. Everybody knows that before, but doing it is yeah, I'm like, oh, how many times do I tell my clients, oh, you just you you know, you just teach your kids how to breathe. And I'm like, I don't breathe, I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah. So how does because you've said two things. How how does being an avoider and also someone who deals with the conflict, how does that work?

SPEAKER_04 25:12

Yeah, isn't that weird? So when it comes to like conflict with anybody else other than Logan, I think I do just fine. I think over the years, I think there's just like we've talked about it, but like the emotional intimacy for me has always been really, really hard with Logan. And I still don't know if I really know like why. I think sometimes it just sometimes it just feels too much. Um Yeah, I don't I don't I don't know how that's a great question.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Oh, so when you say emotional intimacy has been difficult, do you mean like r recognizing your own emotions or recognizing his or both?

SPEAKER_04 25:54

I sometimes I think it's a bit of of both, or just like he's a words of affirmation person. And I could speak words of affirmation to clients and people all day, but I can't I I can. I just don't, you know. But it's like there's this fear that wells up inside of me. It's like this fear of rejection. Oh, if I do that, he's gonna think I'm too clingy, even though that's exactly what he wants.

SPEAKER_07 26:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

I'm not gonna do that for whatever reason because of whatever I've experienced that I haven't figured out how to get over yet.

SPEAKER_07 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Which is a I think is a challenge. I think it's just more the what's the vulnerability in that aspect. I can be vulnerable with a friend or a therapist, but I think we've grown over the years.

SPEAKER_05 26:32

Yeah, for sure. But and that's different types of vulnerability. Yes, it really is. It's marriage versus talking to a friend. You have yeah, you have to live with the person the rest of your life, you know, like they see you naked. Your friend is not exactly a different type of.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

I mean, hopefully they have to be. Hopefully your friends don't see you naked. That'd be weird. That's a different podcast. Yeah. So um what are I was trying to set this up? So you guys were at a recent uh conference that we did, and we we talked about that reaction cycle where you figure out what your deepest desires are. What just give me like one example of each of your deepest wants? Like kind of I don't remember.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Yeah, I should have taken a picture.

SPEAKER_08 27:21

Well, one of mine is that we frequently like come back to is like I have this desire to be heard and seen. So sometimes in conflict when I'm telling Aubrey something heartfelt or like I'm struggling with this or that, and her response is like, okay, like she's processing them, but what comes out of her mouth is not like a almost like I need you to say it back to me to know that you've heard it. You know, it makes me think she didn't hear me, and then that starts that cycle of I'll get angry or I'll just give you the cold shoulder for a little bit or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Yeah. I think one of mine is it's either hurt or significant. I think it's one of those two.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Kind of like a connection.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Yeah.

unknown 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

Yeah. Isn't it interesting that like if you're if your desire one of your desires is connection and yet your your top reactions are avoidance and even conflict, yeah, and how that actually works against the thing that you very you want the most. Yeah, it's just a man. We call it a cycle of suckery. Yeah. Because it's like the perfect storm.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

It really is. Yeah. It really is.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

I want, you know, well, Shelly, one of Shelly's is um it's twin blank.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Connection or um, I went to um partnership, connection, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

And yet she avoids and withdraws. It's like that works completely against it. Yeah. I want to be understood and respected and all that, but yet I go to fault finding and lecturing, which creates disconnection. Yeah. It's just like, oh man.

SPEAKER_05 28:56

Yeah. Yeah. And once you see it, you're like, Oh, yeah, you're not digging it.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Literally, I the funny thing, it's not really funny because it kind of sucks. But literally, that so we get home Sunday after that retreat, and Monday, I kid you not, we were so unkind to each other. It was so bad. And then I left to go do something with Tilly, and he texts and he's like, Well, I guess that's the cycle they were talking about. And I was like, Wow, that's great.

SPEAKER_08 29:19

First hand training. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

It's like, I don't, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

But you know what's cool is that you saw it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 29:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

And then you can stop it.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

That part.

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Yeah. Yeah. Because we've done that. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_07 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

What are we doing?

SPEAKER_07 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

I think the best part, one of the best things about like gauging some of the healthiness of your marriage is like when you have conflict, in the moment it sucks and it probably feels awful. But like the ability to later look back and laugh on it, it's like, wow, we were so dumb. Like, you know, I think that that I think helps a lot with the repair piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

Because repair is huge. Yeah. So big. With kids, spouses, you have to go back and do that work.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

So we've yeah, you have to do that work. So we've kind of tiptoed around this, talking about emotional maturity. What why would you guys say emotional maturity is so crucial in relationships? Really any relationship, doesn't matter age.

SPEAKER_08 30:17

I don't know. I you going back to like I think people today, people are a generation, like everything's catered to you just get to choose, like mix and match how your life wants to be. Like even with conflict, we talked about how like if you write something on Facebook and someone leaves a mean comment, you can just block them and get an unfollow them. And I think we take that mentality and apply it to relationships of like you like divorce is an option. You your spouse ticks you off enough, you can just get divorced, you know. But I when I when I think about my dad, I think that both men and women were forced to have a higher emotional maturity back then because like like I mean, my dad talks about how he remembers like the Vietnam War being on TV. Like some people went and had to go serve in a war, and that forced them to be emotionally mature. Like you come back and you know, you've seen things that you know. And I think we've just got such a cushy environment now that it's okay to be kind of like a like a spiritual baby, be kind of like it's not nothing's really that serious, nothing's that really that big of a deal. You can always back out when you want to. I think that's the danger, is like, why is it important? It's like because we're we're being given this message that you can leave whenever you want, you can change any part of your life that you don't want to do it, you can just change it, you can leave it, you can abandon it. And that's not like the gospel.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

That's you know, I was just gonna say, I feel like that the worldly view of the emotional maturity, that kind of thing, it's just so contrary to like what scripture says and like how you know we're made in the image of God and we're supposed to resemble his image. And I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says anything about him being emotionally immature, you know, and so it's like comes down to how do you, you know, how do I want to be perceived? You know, like do you want to look like an immature child all the time when you're 50 years old and you're still whining and complaining because a building looks stupid? I don't know. Just talking about people and their comments on Facebook over the stupidest things, and it's like, you know, I think it matters most because it's like, do you want to have good connection with people? Like biologically, we were created and made to be in connection and community with people, but that is really hard when you can't be emotionally mature because you're just being you're behaving in a toxic way where it just destroys all of your relationships and then it just creates this cycle.

SPEAKER_07 32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

I love talking in cycles. It's great, it's a great picture because it's like, oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

What is it? What does it do to a relationship in each partner to know that, like you said, Logan, leaving is an option. If this gets too hard, I'll leave. Like, what does that do in a relationship knowing that they could if I say the wrong thing, yeah, could they be gone?

SPEAKER_04 33:10

From like a therapeutic lens, like there's no felt safety. And so, like, if there's no felt safety, then one, your nervous system is gonna be out of whack. You're not gonna trust anything that you think there's no um reality of what safety actually is. You're not gonna be vulnerable. Your intimacy, emotional or physical, is gonna suck. You're not gonna communicate well. Like, you know, if if if that foundation is not there, then it's like, oh, we're just two people and who gives a crap what we do, you know.

SPEAKER_08 33:40

You're like roommates almost.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Yeah, yeah. It's like you're just you're just here to serve me.

unknown 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Kind of a selfish.

SPEAKER_08 33:47

Yeah. I think if Aubrey and I believed that divorce was an option, like for me having high anxiety, I would constantly be nervous of like, oh, I didn't do dishes. I'm so scared. She's like super mad. Like, there's no trust. Your foundation is just like paper thin.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Yeah, which uh it hopefully this is okay they share. But like I know previously in some of our worst conflicts, I think back to like the one where you thought I was calling you a bad dad. Like at some point you were like, Well, why don't we just why don't you just divorce me? And I was like, that's not funny. We're not gonna do that, you know. But like I know looking back, I'm for some reason I know that that's like I know it's I've made it up. That's not an option. And I know you know that, but like that's the anxiety for you in the midst of that conflict when your wounds are hurt or you know, your insecurities are hit at that you can resort to that in a very unhealthy way, even if that's not truly what you want.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I've heard it said this way, and I can't remember who said it, so I'll claim it. Um like like I always say uh as long as divorce is an option, someone will use it as a weapon. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. And and that is so dangerous, like you said.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah. I think it's only happened twice in our marriage.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

He's like, I don't know why he said that. I'm sorry. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to throw you on a grass.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Listen, we've all yeah, we've all said the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 35:11

Yeah, I just didn't think about what you said about that paper thin foundation, who people who aren't believers, how much anxiety and like that would cause to know I could not do the dishes or I could forget something, or what what's the final thing that I'm gonna do that they're just gonna believe? Yeah, that's horrible.

SPEAKER_04 35:33

Yeah, it's horrifying to think of that. It's like, yeah, I often think that too. Sometimes when I work with like non-believers in therapy, I'm like, it's so hard to do therapy with people who don't believe because where is their hope? You know, and it I think that's the same for couples, you know. I have many people in my life who I know that who have gotten divorced or walking through divorces and their marriage isn't built on the foundation of the Lord. And it's like, I I can't speak to any hope for you other than what I believe and what I hope you will come to know. But it's like, I I don't know how to counsel you. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Well, uh along those lines, here's here's something we deal with often. So we're we're pastoral counselors. I have degrees in theology and pastoral counseling, and Shelly has training and biblical counseling. Um, but we're not clinical therapists, right? And so what would you say is where's the line where someone, where you would recommend someone go from maybe pastoral counseling to clinical help therapy, whatever?

SPEAKER_04 36:39

That's that's a good question. I I mean, I'm a big believer in like check-in points, so I'll start there. So, like first year of marriage, go to marriage counseling, not because anything's maybe wrong, but just to check in. Have someone that has no perspective of you at all come in with these open eyes because we have rose-colored glasses on and just kind of assess those things just to see the healthiness of it, and then go to five years and then at 10 years go again. You know, it doesn't have to go to therapy when things are bad. But I would say, you know, like, okay, if if we're struggling to to communicate with each other, like sure, yeah, we could have gone to our pastor and said, hey, help us with this to some degree. Cause I think that, you know, pastoral counselors can do a lot. I think when it gets to the point of like there is so much trauma that is involved and each person needs to be working on their own stuff, that to me would be a good indicator. Um, especially when, like, you know, if you ever felt like, I don't have a clue how to help you in this, that's a good indicator. Probably need to go see someone else. Um, I think if it's, you know, if we're talking to the listener, um yeah, I would say if there's any sort of heavy trauma that you personally haven't dealt with, like that's you should always, I would always encourage go get therapy. Yeah just to work through that so that you individually can be the best you can be. Um, you know, I think.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Individual therapy while maybe even still meeting with you guys as pastoral counselors, you know. Like if I wasn't a clinical therapist, I'd probably sell a clinical degree, but I would be working in a church somewhere. Yeah. So sometimes it can blur a little bit. Right. Um, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Yeah, because even if even if you you work on your marriage and yet you're both falling apart, like it's only going to be as strong as you are individually, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_05 38:34

Yeah. Cause I I mean, we've talked with couples and I'm just like, okay, time out. We can we can talk about communication skills and all the different things, but you have some large amounts of undealt childhood trauma. Yeah. That you need to work through before we can work on the marriage.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

And I always say, especially with marriage counseling, like all of my couples that I see, I I kind of create this ground rule of like, okay, husband, wife, you each need your own individual counselor because there's so much I'm not going to be able to help the two of you with.

SPEAKER_07 39:07

Like one hour.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

Yeah, in one hour. Right. One week or every other week. I'm like, no. You know, so it's like, if I'm gonna be your therapist, you're going to be in your own individual therapy as well. And you're gonna sign releases for me to talk to those people so that I know and your therapist know we can all be on the same page repeating the same thing so that you have a good support system around you to keep you accountable in those things. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Yeah. How many times do you find people are just honest with you and just say, you know what? That's too much work.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

I've had that, I think I think I've had that once or twice.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Yeah. Like we want a great marriage, we just don't want to work at it.

SPEAKER_05 39:46

That just seems like a lot of work.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have worked with couples who are not faith-based, and that's really challenging. But yeah, it's the same story every week, and I just have to, you know, I'm like, I want to reiterate, I'm like, you know, you guys are just paying me to sit here and listen to the same thing over and over because you're not doing any of the stuff at home, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:05

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

I'm like, oh yeah, it's just too hard. And I'm like, well, you're gonna be miserable and stay stuck in the mess that you're in. So you want to keep paying me for that?

SPEAKER_05 40:13

Here's what I've said, like, choose your hard.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Yes, we say that all the time.

SPEAKER_05 40:17

Being married is hard. Yes. What do you want to do? Like, all of it's hard. So yeah. Being healthy, unhealthy, whatever. All of it is. All of it's hard. So um, okay. So, how do you guys stay connected? So, what like some rhythms um that you guys stay in your relationship to kind of just stay connected, stay healthy? I think daily, monthly.

SPEAKER_08 40:38

We try to do at least two date nights a month. Like we would love every Friday to be like a date night for us, but sometimes you just can't find a babysitter. It's expensive. Yeah. And just being aware of like being on your phone and how bad that is. Like, we try our hardest to stop watching, like just stop watching uh Netflix for like three hours instead have a conversation with each other.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Yeah. I really like playing games. Logan does not really like playing like like card games.

SPEAKER_08 41:09

Okay. And so I need other people. I need this.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_08 41:13

I need another couple to play card games with.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Yeah, I think recently I I was like, can you play a card game with me? And he was like, oh yes, I can. And I was like, wow, you could have just said, yeah, do you love to play with you? I'm like, you butt head, but you know, like you know, sometimes that or I mean we used to play a git a video game together and that was fun. We have quite a bit of time after Tilly goes to bed. We need to be better at that. But I think one thing we've gotten better at is like you were talking about earlier, dreaming together. Like, you know, what do we want to do? You know, so we have a lot of we made like little bingo cards for the year of what we want to like do this year. I didn't actually finish mine. He finished his, but I like drew in mine. He just wrote things. So it's like, whatever. It's not competition.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

But you know, oh, you finished making it. Yeah. I was about to say, wow, man, you already think that he didn't have to be. He hasn't, we I don't he hasn't crossed me off.

SPEAKER_04 42:06

No, but yeah. And I think some of that, like the dreaming pieces and those kinds of things, like that's been bigger to us, I think, since the last couple of years of our marriage has been filled with a lot of loss of loved ones in a lot of really difficult ways. And so even though those have been hard, I'm thankful in those seasons, it's kind of produced this motivation or this whatever to be more intentional with our time in all of that.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

And it's kind of difficult sometimes to plan so long term when life feels so not long term sometimes. Yeah.

unknown 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

I think we've been going to that marriage retreat for at least the last three years. That's always been a good check-in.

SPEAKER_07 42:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Especially the times you guys specifically force us to talk about our feelings. Even though I'm a therapist and I love talking about feelings, I don't like talking about my feelings. But it's great. It's a good it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_08 42:59

On that dreaming piece, we talked earlier about uh like at least for me, I'm very goal-oriented. So like I remember going through high school and my mom always saying, you know, you gotta get your high school diploma, you know. Then it's okay, well, then you can go off to college or go get a job. Okay, went to college, got my uh my degree. It's like, okay, maybe you can get married, got married, maybe you can have kids, had a kid. Then you reach this point, it's like, okay, what's next? Right. And then there's this risk of if you don't dream together, your kids are gonna grow up, move out, and then you're gonna be married to this total stranger. Yes. And it's like that sounds horrible to have to like not just redate your spouse when you're empty nesters, but re-relearn who your spouse is, but in a bad way. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's almost like a a chore, it's not an adventure anymore. It's like I have to, or else we do get divorced or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

And I think we too, we have a good amount of married friends in our Age to some degree that, you know, we could sit down with them and say, you know, hey, ask us these hard questions, kind of a thing that could hold us accountable. I think having those kinds of friendships or people in your life is really healthy. I mean, I have people in my own life, older women, that I know I could go to. I'm like, hey, I'm feeling this way. Am I just being a jerk? Or how can you help me like be kind in this, you know, or you know, I'm really struggling with this.

SPEAKER_07 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:28

How do I, how do I love Logan when he's just taking me off right now? You know, maybe not sharing all the details of disagreement.

SPEAKER_08 44:35

But that I think is important for us in our connection, even though it's an outside kind of a- I mean, yeah, that's a good rhythm just to have a a group of friends or like an older couple to sit down with who can kind of lead you through their experience of, hey, we've been through that. Here's how we went through it healthily, you know.

SPEAKER_06 44:54

Right.

SPEAKER_08 44:55

But even like the topic of like when do you go see a counselor? Having those friends to speak into your marriage is also helpful to go. No, guys, that's really bad. You should probably go talk to you. That's normal.

SPEAKER_07 45:07

It's really unhealthy. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Yeah, we did that early on. We just sort of downplayed a lot of issues that we shouldn't have downplayed because we were so in love and it was the rose colored glass.

SPEAKER_05 45:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Things are great. We're always going to be together and we're always going to love each other like puppies, you know? Yeah. And so we didn't deal with a lot of stuff until like year 10, 12, 15. And it was like, oh crap. We should have dealt with this before because this is this is hard. You know. And I think that's why to your guys' point, that's why so many couples, I mean, we've seen over and over again, they divorce at like year 20, 22.

SPEAKER_07 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Because that's when the kids leave. Yeah. And all of a sudden they're staring at each other and they're like, Who are you? Right.

SPEAKER_07 45:56

Yeah.

unknown 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

They don't know how to talk to one another.

SPEAKER_08 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 46:00

If you're not doing check-ins, like it makes me think about how when Tilly was born was really hard on Aubrey. So like Aubrey before then was one person. Then we had had Tilly, and Aubrey was a completely different person after that. And I think of when my best friend Cole got cancer and died. Before that, I was one person. And after that, I was a completely different person. So it's like if you're not doing check-ins, you're eventually your spouse is going to change to a totally different person. Right. And it's just going to hit you. Like, oh, this is not my wife from year one anymore. Like, you know, you don't want to get lost in that, then have to go, when did this change? What when did you start believing this or whatever? Yeah. And that just increases that divide between you two.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

That's so good. Yeah. If anybody's taking notes, write that down because that was really good. Um Shelly asked earlier about social media. Logan, I think I know where you stand on this topic because I did listen to the hot take podcast. Uh, but for you, social media has always been a part of your relationship.

unknown 47:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

But for us, it hasn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

It kind of came in, you know, halfway through or so. How do you think that difference shapes relationships? We we've talked about this a little bit already, but I'm just talking about yours, your relationship.

SPEAKER_08 47:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 47:19

I think for me, like Aubrey had mentioned before, of like your phone's always listening. And I've noticed you can find any person on the internet making any kind of content that will validate any emotion, any thought you have, even if it's something super small to something huge of like, you know, who you should vote for, what your gender should be, whatever. You can find people that can take scripture and twist that and validate your emotions, or on a secular level can tell you, here's statistics about why this is a good idea. And I think that is the worst thing of if you're on your phone or a lot, if you're on social media a lot, you have to be really careful that you're not placing more weight into what some random person on the internet tells you over your spouse, or even like your pastor or friends, you know. Or AI. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 48:10

Yeah. Crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

Yeah. I think too, we were talking about like just technology or phones in general. Like, I think a lot of people our age would probably be like, well, that's stupid. You do that because you don't trust your spouse. But like he knows all the passwords to my phone. I know all the passwords to his stuff, you know. So it's like, I know at any point I could go look at that. But then it's like, okay, I need to stop for a minute. Why do I feel like I need to go look at his phone? He hasn't done anything to prove that he's been unfaithful or anything like that. What's going on in my head to to make me think I need to go look at that? Oh, well, I've been wa watching these videos of people cheating all the time. And I'm like, why am I watching that crap?

SPEAKER_07 48:50

You know?

SPEAKER_04 48:50

But then it's it's a good, I think, thing to be able to be aware of that so that you can kind of have those checkpoints in the midst of that. Um, I mean, social media-wise, like we um, there's a girl we we kind of mentor a little bit together and she was sending him funny reels, really stupid reels by herself. And then, you know, I had to put us all in a little group chat of like, hey, please don't send anything directly to him. Just use this group chat. That's just kind of a boundary we have type of a thing. Just trying to be aware of some of those things. I know like there have been times where you're like, hey, this uh, you know, watching a movie or something technology-wise, like, like I didn't think this movie was gonna be bad. So if you see it on here, I'm really sorry for watching it. You know, like there's just I feel like there's social media is a that's a really big one. I feel like we're good at communicating. I think part of that comes from before we got married, both of us struggled with pornography. And so like that has always been a like, nope, we're gonna be really diligent on on that.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

And so far it's stay open and honest, been a really good yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

What was your acronym? Hot times. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:57

Yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

I use that in therapy actually, and your reactive cycles and just put it in our like folder thing.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

Yeah, that's smart. Don't worry, we we stole it from somebody. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 50:09

Everything, yeah, everything we understand.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Well, do you guys ever feel pressure on social media to present your relationship better than what it might be sometimes?

SPEAKER_08 50:21

I don't know if we've had pressure to make it look better. I think I've learned that you can become or your marriage online can become a stumbling block for other people to envy. And I've personally just have been more mindful of that of like Explain that. So like there's a there's kind of like this stereotype or like joke online that uh couples who get um photos taken together all the time are doing really bad. And so they need family photos to show how happy they are. And reassurance, yeah. So there was, I mean, we oddly enough have been lucky enough to get family photos pretty frequently. So like always think of this joke of like, oh, people don't think our marriage is a mess because we're always always doing stuff together. But I know other people have been like, yeah, my marriage is a mess. And but I know looking online, all these other marriages are going really well. And I don't know if that's true for these other people, but for me, I you know, I was like, social media is so fake that I don't want to just post all my highlights and get people to think like, oh, your marriage isn't like this, so yours must suck. Right, right. So it's like I I felt personally convicted to like tone it down, like just being you know, also helps me be more intentional directly to Aubrey versus going, I'll tell Aubrey how I feel online so she can read it. It's like I can just tell her to her face and get off my phone. And I so I that's just a personal conviction for me.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Yeah, because I've seen a lot of people who are like on the flip side, and it's like, oh, he doesn't post about you, right? Oh, he doesn't care about you, kind of a thing. That's like, excuse me? Yeah, like I would rather have you say something to my face than post it like, yeah, I might get those little butterflies of oh, he just called me hot on social media in front of everybody, you know. But it's like the actual face-to-face connection does a lot more for the drops of dopamine and all the chemicals in your brain anyway, but like and the connection too.

SPEAKER_08 52:11

But yeah, I think of like times that we have friends who update their Facebook profile picture and it's just them. And we know that they have a spouse and children, and we're like, why didn't you post the rest of your video? Like you're wired to think that something bad is happening.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

We've been working on a uh uh upcoming podcast episode, and it's we're calling it like red social media red flags. Like when you see these things, here's what it might mean. Yes, yeah. So stay tuned for that.

SPEAKER_04 52:40

I love that. I'm literally okay, but like what nine times out of ten, I'll see that, and I'm like, something's going on there. And I'm right most of the time number.

SPEAKER_03 52:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:49

What? No, I didn't want to be right, you know? Yeah.

unknown 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Oh man. Yeah. So so true, so true.

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Um, we've been talking about this, but the social media, I I think you maybe kind of answered this, but I think it is harder for couples in general just to have social media and to connect in their relationship. Um but I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

I just even like I remember when I think it was Facebook, when it first first few years it was out. It would the prompt was always like, How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_06 53:26

Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yeah, think about it. Yeah. Thank you for that. Sorry. Uh which even like what if that were still the case? It almost forces you to not simply post the all the highlights. It's almost asking you, hey, you know what? I'm not feeling great today because you don't have to go into detail, but it's like, no, I'm not good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's almost like it was easier to be more authentic when social media started. Yeah. What's funny?

SPEAKER_05 53:59

Because I always every day I get on just Facebook just to see what my memories are. Yeah, just thinking it's real. And they're from like 16 years ago, 17 years ago. Is that it's like, how are you feeling? Great. Yeah. Kids are crazy. Like at these little short things. It's uh it's feeling annoyed. It's feeling ombre marino. It's feeling annoyed. I could be wrong, but you could not post pictures, right? You could.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

You could we could post pictures. Could we? Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't like a slate table at an abacus. That's all it thought. Goodness, grandma.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Oh man. That's hilarious. But we didn't have phones that you could you had to get online to post on the phone. You had to get on a computer. You couldn't do it on your phone. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. They didn't really have smartphones then.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Our uh had a blackberry.

SPEAKER_04 54:51

Our razors. Our razors was that.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:55

Yep. That's what I thought.

SPEAKER_03 54:57

So can you guys hear me okay? Yeah. Okay. I think there are some uh generational differences, obviously, between uh younger couples and older couples. And we don't think that's a negative thing. And and the way we would describe that is because we ourselves are just different people today than we were when we first got married. Shelly was 20, I was 21. We look back at those that that we were just like, oh my gosh, we were so young, in some ways we're the same, and in other ways it's like, oh my gosh, we were so much different. So there's just those natural differences. Um things that we didn't understand about long-term marriages when we were younger. So when you think um, well, what do you think younger couples don't understand about long-term marriage today?

SPEAKER_04 55:49

That's a good question. I think like when I think of I think it would be like more my grandparents, so to say, like their marriage. Like people were getting shipped out and deployed and those kinds of things. So they kind of married quickly, you know, and navigated marriage very differently. And I think the the roles of marriage were pretty traditional to maybe to the extreme, the wife stays homes and cooks and cleans, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you kind of gradually start to change some of those things. And so, like, for us at least, like, we kind of have a role reversal. So I'm the one who leaves and is the breadwinner, and he's the one who stays home and works from home and watches Tilly. And so naturally that's way different than what my grandparents would have experienced, or maybe even you guys. I think your generation was probably more appropriate for I think it was starting like both men and women were going to work. Was that kind of more? Oh yeah. Yeah. So as it's like shifted and stuff, I think it's like, you know, you have all the well, feminism and women should blah blah blah blah and all of that. But then I also think it's interesting because I think a lot more faith-based couples, I see a lot of them are like, I want to go back to homesteading kind of a thing. So it's really tough. Our kids are. Yeah, it's really interesting to see that dynamic because I'm like, I kind of want to go to homesteading, but I don't really want to live on a farm type of a thing. You know, I want to take some of the aspects of it, but still, you know, so you want sourdough, but not goats. Yes, yes, I I cannot do sourdough, so I have a friend who makes it and I buy it from her and she's great. I can make homemade coffee syrups. Great, whatever, we just trade, you know, but like some of those things, I think, yeah. That's not even what your question really was. Sorry, just went on a tangent there. Like, I don't even remember what it was.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

So well, when you look at those couples who've been married, as you would say, a long time. Yeah, yeah. What stands out to you guys?

SPEAKER_04 57:46

I think like I think of my grandparents, like they've been through hell and back in a lot of different ways. And they're still married, they're like 70s now. But one, I think it's truly because of Jesus that they have stayed together and just their their commitment first to Jesus, then to their spouses in that, no matter what is happening. But I think in younger couples, even in faith-based couples too, I've seen like just like that idea earlier of like, well, I'm only gonna do this as long as it serves me. So, like long term, as long as it serves me long term, okay, great. I'll stay in it long term, kind of a thing. But I think people also just uh the idea of like, this is my best friend, I gotta live with this person forever. Sometimes I think that that is missing.

SPEAKER_05 58:37

You're on the same team.

SPEAKER_07 58:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

On the flip side, uh, what do you think older generations misunderstand about couples your age?

SPEAKER_04 58:48

Or just trying to survive.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Help us out. Oh my gosh. I think one of the for me at least is that just like because of social media, how easy it is to compare myself to other people. You know, it's like my grandparents raised their kids in the middle of the war. You know, those kinds of things. I'm like, wow, my issues are not compared to that. But so like the comparison game that I think is so hard, which I think as social media you get involved in, you you realize that in different stages. But I think especially marriage and coming out of like for us, I purity culture, that was rough. Like, I'm sure you guys were in the thick of that when that was going on. So you want I think you understand. But it is very interesting just navigating the the shame of some of those things. It's that pressure of you know, don't have sex before marriage, don't even think about it, don't do this, don't do that. And it's like, okay, we get married, you can have sex now. What the frick do we do? Right. I like we don't know what, you know, it's such a shameful thing. It's like we don't know how to do that. And I don't think you guys really you were taught how to do that either. So it's like not a fair thing to even like you know, yeah, it's like don't do the survey.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

Don't think about it, don't ask questions, and then all of a sudden be an expert in it. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:07

It's like what? Excuse me? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:10

I think people in our generation are really questioning just everything they've ever been told. I think older people sometimes think what that what they hear is us saying, no, that's stupid, but we're genuinely just asking, like, is this the right way to do it? Like I think of spanking your kids versus not spanking like some of that stuff. Some people really uh like firm on I spank my kids. Some people are like, I don't ever want to lay a hand on my kid. And it's not like one way is better than the other, but it's just I think two and our generation really want to be sure that that's what they actually believe and what they actually think is right.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

They don't want to take it blanketly.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:46

I think older generations might have just been handed something and they just ran with it more of out of, oh well, my dad told me this, so you don't disobey your dad or you don't question your dad, so I just did it. It's like I think we have the opportunity to question and it's not as insulting to go, well, thanks for that, dad. But I'm gonna see if I actually want to do that or not, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Yeah, it's not a hit on their character or their fatherhood or their parenthood or whatever.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:10

Yeah. So what do you think younger couples could learn from the older couples if they were willing to listen?

SPEAKER_08 1:01:16

Everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

So much. I think there is a lot of wisdom in just even even if the only thing you learn is why your parents like sitting and thinking with your parents. So, like if I sat down and asked my dad, why did you discipline the way you did? And all I got to learn was more about who my dad is and his character and what made him him today, like to me that's that's a win. I think just even sitting and listening is one of the greatest gifts you can have, or receive or whatever. Is like, because you one, you get to build that connection in things, but it's like I would sit and listen to my dad all day, even if I disagree with him, and I do disagree with him on lots of things, you know. But it's like I think in the midst of listening to some of those things, it helps either solidify why I'm not gonna do that or helps me think differently of like, okay, maybe I will take some of that, you know, or like throwing a fit because my dad made me put my phone on the counter. I'm like, why would you make me do that? And he's like, Well, let me tell you why, because you didn't want to listen then. And I'm like, no, 100% I'm gonna do that. You know, like you're in a different stage from when you were a kid in their home to an adult now. And there was a lot of to to see, like, why did you make that decision? Or like, well, I don't actually know why.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

My my guess would be since you were the first or seven. I was the guinea pig. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry about that. He's probably doing the best he could, and he probably would do things differently.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

And you said he wasn't a believer, too, right? For uh until I was like five, five or six, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

We've uh we've had to apologize to our oldest often.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:49

Yes. Anytime they come to us, right? We're sorry. Sorry. Sorry, we messed up. Because we parent very, very differently from our first to our last. Sure. There's a six-year gap between the there's four, but yeah, between the first and the last one.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Yeah. And even in those six short years.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:07

Yes, they do. They have very different parents.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

Yes. Logan often, like, because our when we got engaged, my parents were pretty ticked off for a few days, didn't want to talk to us. Like, there were really hard conversations we had. And then, like, a couple years later, my sister, one of my other sisters, got engaged on Christmas and they weren't believers and aren't, you know, in those kinds of things. And I remember bawling all the way home because I'm like, what? You were excited for them and you're not excited for us. And Logan was like, Aubrey, we should maybe we should take that as like a pre answer to prayer because we prayed that he would grow and learn how to be different and those kinds of things. So, like, that's kind of always sticks with me when it comes to that. Because I'm like, Well, my youngest sister definitely does not have the same parents that I have because she got away with everything.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Works fine. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

That's well, we like to give our listeners a summit challenge. That's what we call every episode. And if you're still listening to this, thank you so much. Uh it's been great, but it's also been long and it's great. Who cares? Yeah, right. Um, so here's here's our summit challenge. What is one habit that has strengthened your marriage the most? What's one thing that you do that you're like, we love doing that, and we're gonna keep doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:27

I think setting aside time to turn off your TV, put your phone down, and just like sit across from each other, look each other in the eyes and have a genuine conversation, do a check-in. Whether that's like on a date night, out at dinner, or just you know, in your living room, whatever, those moments are so good, so growing, and so encouraging for each other if you just focus and treat it very intentionally and serious.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

Yeah. I think too, some of the like easy ways to do that is just the simple questions. I don't know if we learned it from you or I just stole it from somebody else. But it's like this week a marriage check-in of like, how have I loved you well this week? That's one way I can grow. Did we learn that from you? Oh, yeah, of course you learn that from me. No, we've said that. Oh, great. Yeah. Like I think, I mean, we don't do those specific questions as maybe frequently as I wish we probably would. But I think just that intentionality of being able to do that, those check-ins, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:24

Um, and after you get through that dream together about what the next like season of your life could look like. And that helps give you some direction and some ways that you feel encouraged to be together as a team.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:38

So here's a question. What is one thing couples in their 20s, those a little bit younger than you guys, can start doing now that will matter in 20 years?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:48

You said one earlier and I can't remember what it was, but it was good.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:51

It was dreaming was the first one. Like that. That's just a good rhythm to have.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:55

Yeah. It is a good one. I think um, I mean, if they're dating or they're engaged. Or even married, um doing dates with other couples. Being in community with other couples that are older than you, even if they're or similar age, like just that I think is really helpful just because it just keeps things like a more accountability type of thing. Yeah, or just just normal friendship. You you just grow that community because like we have some friends who, you know, like they got married and they moved and then they kind of isolate out in the country or whatever, and it's like okay, we need to be intentional about still staying in that community after life changes, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

So is there any we kind of we kind of mentioned this, but people who are preparing for marriage today, dating, wanting to get engaged, any advice Yeah, Jesus first, then your spouse, then then your kids, then your parents that for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:52

But I think one as a mental health therapist, I would say like make sure you're comfortable with like the uncomfortable, like have that irregular rhythm of being uncomfortable with or being comfortable with getting uncomfortable. You're gonna have really uncomfortable conversations, but if you can learn how to be okay in the uncomfortable, you're gonna go a lot farther, I think, especially when it comes to conflict and those kinds of things. Because it's yeah, be more aware of your own internal dialogue. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:30

I'd uh like get comfortable with racing to the bottom and start like finding little ways to learn how to get comfortable serving other people. Yeah. Because when you get married, there's gonna be so many opportunities where you're gonna have to either serve your spouse well or put up your ego and say, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:46

So daddy yourself every day.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:48

I think you you guys put it the first time we met you was racing to the bottom to serve one another. Yeah, yeah. That I we say that all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:55

Especially as a race as a man to have that at the forefront of your brain all the time, as much as you can is so helpful. Yeah. Because what you're called to as a Christian man is to put your wife first, put Jesus first, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:08

And it's hard.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:09

Okay, it is hard.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:10

But it's worth it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've asked you guys a lot of questions. Uh any any questions for us?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

What like for you, who are obviously different age, different generation with us, like in working with couples, I'd assume you work with with couples that are younger, what do you think has been the biggest struggle for couples our age?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:35

Or common? Um the thing that I've seen a couple times is we talked about this earlier, they know the language, and they think because they know the language that they're fine. They're fine. Yeah. But do you see how you are being selfish? Do you see and it's like, well, I I that's because I was raised like that. Yeah. It's like, okay, but that's just an excuse. Yeah. And yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

They I I agree. Okay. I would also add, yeah. And I would also add that what I think what we've seen a lot is younger couples look at older couples who are either still married or have a great relationship, and they just assume that they got lucky. Right. Um, they married the right one, they're compatible in all the ways.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

They didn't struggle. It was easy, sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:30

And it's like they have no idea that that couple is the way they are because they went through hell and back.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

And they just and don't even get me started on the whole right one thing. That's a whole nother podcast. But yeah, they think, oh, I I married the wrong one, and and our ours, ours is never gonna be good. Yeah, because it's just not. And they just think that we've had people look at us, and it's the the way they say things, it's like, you guys are so lucky, you know, and it's just like a time out, man. Yeah, yeah. Can we just list off some of the crap, yeah, which we try to do like in our when we do marriage conferences?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:09

Like, we're not coming at this with, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:12

Here are all the things we've dealt with. Yeah. And I was like, You did that at the most recent one we were just at, yeah. Yeah, so helpful, by the way. I think that is like marriage conferences. If that's the only thing you keep doing, is keep sharing the hardship of like, this is what we've been through. This is us choosing the hard because we love each other and we're serving each other, and ultimately it's because God is hearse. Like that, I think has always been the biggest encouragement. Is like in our moments when we feel like this sucks, I don't want to do this anymore. It's like, okay, well, they went through it too. So if they can do it, we can do it, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:43

Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:44

That's huge.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

Well, anybody have anything else?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

No. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for being here, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

Uh, we're so proud of you. Keep doing what you're doing. Go check out probably bad advice podcasts.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:58

I love the menu. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:59

And uh, it's fantastic. That's good. Yeah, until next time, we'll see you guys later.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Welcome to the Facebook Revelation, it's love Mr. God. Every stop, every mom, every mom, we lay down the prize.