New Project Adresses the Risks of Future Fuels at Sea

The green transition in shipping is also a matter of safety, when new fuels are being introduced.

In this episode of The Blue Denmark, we explore how fuels like methanol, ammonia and hydrogen are changing the safety landscape at sea. While they are essential to reducing emissions, they also introduce new challenges that the industry must understand and manage.

It is critical because these new fuels introduce increased fire and explosion risks, toxicity, and often invisible hazards – from bunkering and storage to handling and onboard operations.

With insights from the METAFUEL-project, developed by the Danish Institute of Fire and Security Technology (DBI), we take a closer look at how these risks can be identified, assessed and handled in practice.

Guests Leonard Sang Tuei and Anders V. Kristensen from DBI share their experience from the project and discuss everything from real-world risks to regulation, decision-making and the growing importance of human factors onboard.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Blue Denmark, our podcast at Danis Maritime, where we explore the most important topic shaping our maritime industry, both in Denmark and globally. Today we're diving into a crucial part of the green transition in shipping, one that doesn't always get the same attention as emissions of fuels, but is just as important, which is safety. Because the industry is moving towards new fuels like methanol, ammonia, and hydrogen, these fuels also introduce entirely new risks that need to be understood and managed. And that's exactly what we're going to talk about today through the Meta Fuel Project developed by DBI, the Danish Institute of Fire and Security Technology. The project that has just been wrapped up focuses on how we can safely implement these alternative fuels in the maritime sector and how to support better decision making across the industry. To help us unpack this, I'm joined by two guests who have been leading the project. Welcome to Lennard Sang Tui, project manager in DBI, and for the Meta Fuel Project with a background in mechanical engineering and also a specialist in transport and alternative fuels.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

And welcome to Anas Vie Christensen, business developer in DBI, who acted as principal consultant on metafuel with a background as master marina and maritime specialist in DBI.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

And my name is Mia Tang. I am head of public affairs and communications at Danish Maritime, and I'll be your host today. So, what is MetaFuel? Let's start with the basics. If you had to explain the Metafuel Project to someone who's not an expert, then why this project? And what challenges in the maritime industry did you want to address?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Metafuel is an acronym for marine alternative fuels. And the main objective of the project is to help the maritime industry to make the right decisions, especially while choosing the alternative fuels, methanol, ammonia, and hydrogen, as examples in this case. Of course, these fuels come with new risks, and the stakeholders within the industry would like to make uh proper choices, especially when it comes to safety, where DBI focuses on so our perspective uh comes from safety.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Why is this particularly important right now?

SPEAKER_02 2:32

It's uh particularly right important right now because we are looking into a green transition and we need to have more facts on the table. Uh we've often seen a lot of uh helicopter viewing on the on the green translation and not going into the the details, taking a deeper dive into the details as as we did with uh metafuel project, and that's why we we thought it was about time to to go more into details.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

But if we look at the bigger picture at the moment, why are these fuels, fuels like methanol, ammonia, and hydrogen so central to the future of shipping?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Well you can say that uh maybe right now is a very good time to look at it uh from an another point of view. Uh we have the uh increasing rates of uh fuel, the prices going up for fuel um due to other reasons in in the world, but also from a green trans uh green transition point of view, we need to uh uh ensure that we can have a green transport at sea, and we need some fuels that are viable and uh and there we see methyl ammonia and hydrogen as uh the first stepping stones.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

What makes these fuels different from the traditional fuels that we know and use today?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah, the main difference when I mean from a safety perspective uh is that um these fuels uh have different uh combustion properties, so you'll get uh different fires from what we are used to, especially when it comes to uh methanol and hydrogen. Uh of course ammonia comes with uh issues of toxicity that we indeed we didn't have uh with other conventional fuels, uh diesel and of course heavy fuel oil.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

When you look at them from a safety perspective, what are the most important things to understand before even going into a project like this?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

I think um what we and also one of the reasons why we undertook this project was that we heard from from industry and from uh stakeholders that that the approach was a bit like it's just like uh what we normally did. But uh we can use the same approach, we can use the same procedures, we can use the same equipment for fighting, let's say, a methanol fire as if it was a diesel or heavy fuel fire. And that's where we see uh a big risk because you can't do that. It is it is uh it is new wine, you could say, but it's certainly also in new bottles. It's not uh new wine in old bottles. So you really have to reconsider the approach when you introduce uh a new fuel, and that includes the risks uh but also uh procedures.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

When looking at methanol, ammonia and hydrogen, then can you give some specific examples on how the risks differ just to elaborate that?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Uh we can start with methanol. Uh we know that methanol, from theory at least, that it bans with uh invisible um non-luminous flame, and that introduces new risks. You can't rely on your eyes, uh especially when on board a vessel. You have to rely on instruments uh that's like infrared detection and uh yeah, such kind of equipment so that you are able to see the flame. Um when it we also know that um methanol uh doesn't doesn't produce smoke when it burns, so you can't rely on your smoke detectors, uh, especially when it burns and has clean methanol. Um hopefully when it burns, of course, there is paint and um yeah, maybe oil within the engine room, and then maybe you are able to get smoke, and then uh your normal heat detectors could work. Um we I mean smoke detectors in that case. Uh we also know that uh it produces uh less uh radiant heat, and that means you can't rely on your normal heat detectors. Um, and that's interesting uh to look at. Um hydrogen, same, it burns with uh no smoke, uh, you can't see the flame, so you have to rely on instrument and not your uh yeah, human eyes. Um ammonia uh is very toxic. Um if it's leaked on board a vessel, um, yeah, from the banker station, of course, to the engine room. Um when you smell it, you already are getting to levels that can be uh catastrophic uh for human life. So yeah, that's why they are interesting in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Where on the ship do these risks typically arise?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Um within the project MetaFuel, we mapped um yeah, four zones of the ship. Um in the beginning, of course, we started with looking at the properties of these fuels and the hazards that come with it when used on board a vessel. And then we decided, okay, uh, from the bunker station where you refuel to the use of the fuel in the consumer, that is the engine. Um we zoned uh the fuel handling areas of a ship into four places the banger station, and then the pipes to the storage tank, the storage tank itself and the tank connection space, and then the pipes to the fuel preparation room, that's uh zone number three, and lastly the engine room, and the pipes, of course, from the fuel preparation to the engine room. Yeah. And of course, the risks that comes with um those zones differ because, for example, the fuel preparation room is an enclosed space. Um the uh banger station uh is open in most cases, so the risks that comes with uh these fuels, especially methanol and ammonia, because they are toxic, um, are different whether the space is open or it's enclosed.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

So at this point, and with the experience that you've got, which part of the operations requ require the most attention when it comes to safety then?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Yeah, that's a that's actually a very good question because uh I think each of the four sectors uh have their independent uh requirements for safety. And and I if I may go back to the bongering part, we're used to bunkering. Um we've been bunkering fuel oil for the last 70, 80 years, so it's a known known operation at sea. It's something you do very often, it's something that the mariners are used to. And now they have to bonger something different. So they have to change the perspective, they have to change the way they do it, and and just you know, all change is difficult. And and and if you don't do it uh if it's not done the correct way, of course it introduces some new risks that we haven't seen before. So I would say to begin with, it starts with bunkering. And then the more you get it into the vessel, it undergoes maybe uh increase in pressure or changes to temperature, and it gets closer to the crew on board. Uh and and that's probably the biggest change that it's going from the bunker station into the storage to fuel preparation system into the engine room, is in contact with or not in contact, but it's close to the crew. And and that that is a new approach we haven't seen before. Uh a new risk we haven't seen before.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

So, how exactly if we look at the project itself, so how exactly did you approach this challenge that then when starting this mesafuel project?

SPEAKER_01 9:36

So um I'll I'll bring a brief summary. I mean, we started with the fuel properties that I said before and the hazards that come with it uh on board a vessel. And then we mapped um, I mean, we set boundaries or zones, uh fuel handling zones within the ship, the four that I just mentioned. And then we did um an overview of uh risk assessment tools that are available for use. Um, if you are, of course, when you're introducing these fuels, there are new risks. Um, you need to do a risk assessment to start with. So we had an overview of that. And then we know that these fuels will come close to humans. So it's interesting to know what are the human factors, how will humans interact with these fuels? Um, we know that these fuels will come with uh more complex systems for handling them, more panels, more equipment within the vessel. So there is a big role of human beings. We know that there are like small safety margins. For example, if you are in a vessel with um hydrogen, this the the the margin of error is quite smaller than your conventional fuels. So we we needed to map and uh look at uh the role of human factors. And then we know that there are like regulations, of course, by the IMO um internationally. We mapped the regulations. Uh I mean we had an overview of the regulation, both international at IMO level, regional, um, fuel EU, and uh yeah. And then also look at uh national level um regulations. And then after that, we went ahead and looked at uh from on the different zones that I just mentioned, we looked at uh the safety uh considerations. I mean, that's basically what could go wrong from the banger station to the engine room, and then for what for anything that could go wrong, which are safety considerations, what are the countermeasures to counter for those risks? And they are different for each of those zones. Uh, because fuels, um, as um my colleague Anna said, you are changing, let's say you fuel while it's a liquid, but you use it in the engine when it's a gas. So you have to consider that uh, and then in the end, uh we have to do a gap analysis that is based on the regulation, which is mainly the IMO guidelines. Some of them are still interim, of course, not so some actually, it's all of them are still interim, methanol and ammonia. There is no regulation yet at IMO levels for hydrogen. Uh, but classification societies are way ahead. They already have rules, but these rules are still fragmented, there are gaps, they are different. Some uh classification society rules are quite um comprehensive than others, so we had to compare all of them and then do a gap analysis. And then, of course, that led us to developing a gap analysis matrix and then a decision tool that came up, and then we went ahead and gave recommendations for the industry and the roadmap for the future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

But regarding the practical work, can you tell us a bit about the testing and simulations that you've carried out?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

While doing the gap analysis, we realized as a research institute, uh DBI, of course, could help contribute by testing because we have capability to test with using our test facilities. We also have uh the capacity to do simulations. So the easiest one to mean we we decided to use two examples, um methanol, for example. Uh we did an example of uh pool fire of methanol um within the engine room space. And in this case, we used a smaller space. We have a facility called Mobat. It's uh half a container, 20-foot container space, where we could carry out our fire tests. So we we mainly focused on uh water mist and then looked at the effect of water mist um on uh pool fire of methanol using uh different uh tray sizes. And of course, the focus was to see the effectiveness of water mist to extinguish. We know that uh a lot of research has been done on water mist, for example, and it's known that water mist doesn't really work on uh methanol, but we wanted to see um at least we know that water could be used to cool down the flame, and then firefighters could uh go into an engine room and maybe evacuate or yeah, respond. Um, so with that we compared uh different uh K factor, um, which is kind of the flow rate of water mist, uh different positioning of uh the nozzle with regards to where the fire is. And one of our findings, of course, was as much as um water mist doesn't work, it could help reduce the temperature to tenable um for example, it could reduce the temperature from high levels to like 48 degrees, where humans can get in and uh intervene. When it comes to ammonia, we decided to simulate um if ammonia leaks during bunkering, for example, a host rupture. How does uh semi-refrigerated and uh refrigerated ammonia uh spread depending on different um, let's say, weather conditions, uh where it was licted? And uh we used an hypothetical uh pot in uh Denmark and then compared summer and winter and looked at uh how it spreads, uh how it disperses. And of course, the interesting finding, and I think a lot of research has been done on this as well, is that gaseous um ammonia will disperse way further than the refrigerated ammonia, and the reason is refrigerated ammonia will have first have to evaporate before it spreads. And probably as a guide to the industry, then we see of course with this comes with discussion as well with uh both authorities, uh industry stakeholders. I think there is a bit of preference as of now to uh refrigerated ammonia than the geoush ammonia because of such reasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

When looking at the whole technical matter and the testing that you've done, I would like to elaborate on the human factor here. Yeah. Because there are lots of new things to learn um from whoever working on ship or in the harbor. How do you see that perspective? Because that is basically difficult to work with, you the human factor.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Well well, you're absolutely right, and that and that's also as uh what I talked about. Every change is new, and every change can be difficult. And uh and as Leonard said, when we looked into the uh spread of uh a potential ammonia leak, it can also influence uh the ports and the port workers, and close to each port there's a city, and that could also influence that area. So but but to come back to your question on how to dress the crew, you could say how to how it will influence the crew and um people in the vicinity, uh you really have to to train them and uh make them capable of handling these new situations. Uh you have to dress them in the sense that they feel comfortable being in the presence of new fuels and also know how to to react and how to handle it. And it goes further than just the crew, it also has to include port workers, for example. And also, I mean, we want to continue operation as we do today. Uh today vessels can arrive at a port, they can bunker, they can do cargo operation, they can do crew chains, uh take provisions, etc., all at once. And we want to be able to continue doing that, or else we will extend the port stay, and that's not really, I mean, that's not good for anyone. It will start to influence the transport, etc. So we have to make sure that we can we can do all of these operations today and tomorrow as well with new fuels, and that certainly requires that the crew and port members, port workers, etc., are probably dressed in in either courses or training. It also includes that uh emergency services are are updated accordingly so that if the fire brigade comes, they know how to, let's say, uh evacuate a person that has been uh under influence of ammonia. So they dress up in the right gear, are familiar with the right procedures, and they are, of course, the the emergency services are aware of it, but they just need to be aware of it in a new content because they will see it in different uh ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

If a container ship going on methanol is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, there's a fire, you can hardly see the flames, no smoke. So when is it when is it going to be detected and how is it going to be handled?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

The most important thing is to make sure that you prevent leakage. That's the starting point. You design a vessel so that the chances of leakage are almost zero or at least minimal. And if there is leakage, you want to have your early warnings, so you want to detect the gas as soon as possible. So you have to place your detectors at the right level. When you look at uh the density of methanol, it's a bit heavier than air. So it probably if it spills on the ground, of course it will be the ground, and but it has low flash point. If it evaporates, but it it's almost at the flow level. So you have to, that says the positioning of detectors is really important. And of course, it depends a lot on simulation. So you have to simulate so that you can place them at the right level, but at least it's known that it's uh at the at the ground level. And after that, um, if it leaks, if it evaporates as well to prevent uh it uh methanol fiber accumulating to a dangerous level where if there's an ignition source, you will get uh fire or an explosion. You have to have adequate ventilation. That's why there's a requirement for minimal air changes, for example, in the engine room and in the fuel preparation space. You always have to have, and of course, tank connection space, um, continuous uh ventilation of those spaces. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah, and it also goes to say that you have to adjust, uh, you have to rethink how you detect. So, of course, you if you can't see smoke, if you can't see a flame, then you have to rethink how you detect it. So you have infrared detection, uh gas detection, etc., so that you adjust accordingly. Uh and then it goes back to the the saying with the with the new wine or new bottles, you have to rethink it. So you need new detection systems, you need new firefighting systems, you need new procedures to attack the fire.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Maybe to add on fire, of course, uh you leak the fuel, you have your fiber or yeah, you are liquid. If there's an ignition source, you get a fire, of course. And hopefully you've countered that using ventilation and detection before. But if you in case you have a fire, of course, when you look at the um IMO guideline, the interim one for money at least 1621, there is, I mean, there is need for the regulation say that you should have approved um fixed fire extinguishing system, which is alcohol resistant, and it leaves the attack. So um, at least from what we see, there is uh not enough data. And that's what we are continuously doing as at DPI as well when it comes to testing. We have projects where we are doing um more testing of uh fire suppression uh agents or systems, and also the detectors as well. And that so MetaFuel in essence gave birth to newer projects, and it's a continuous uh working work in progress, progress. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Just looking at the uh regulations, yeah um, how well do current regulations support the use of these fuels today? You just mentioned briefly that it's sort of a little on the surface still.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah, of course the IMO regulations uh is uh goal-based, um, but um at on practical level, the classification societies goes further to give uh details on um yeah, how these systems should be safely implemented, um in fuel handling systems within the vessel. And um we had a mix, I mean, at in MetaFuel, we had a mix of um looking at the gaps in the uh regulations, both IMO and classification societies. And of course, there are still a lot of gaps when it comes to firefighting systems, at least, and of course, other systems like uh emergency shutdown in case of a leakage, ventilation, detection. There's quite a lot of gaps to be filled. And um I think it's a work that should that's in progress. Of course, these regulations will keep evolving, and that's why we decided to come up with the decision tool because yeah, there's still um gaps, and we we give suggestions at least to specific uh. Can we give specific uh recommendations to the cultural in the decision tool that we came up with in the project?

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah, and I and also um talking about IMO, we we we are of course also looking into how we can contribute. We are we are uh assisting the Danish Maritime Authority with our knowledge on on the green fuels and various correspondence groups on this topic. And also, if we can bring our knowledge to the table at IMO, for sure we will. So we will make a submission to the Danish Meritum Authority or send in information papers that can promote uh a safe green transition.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Well, as an organization, the IMO is not well known for its high speed.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

No.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

How do you think the speed in this process should be? Because uh fuels are in some respect available. Some shipping companies already use these fuel, some of them. Um so where are we in that process? It's like are we lacking behind uh in in the legislative part of it?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I think you can say is uh a general observation with all legislation is that it's always following behind the reality. The reality will always overtake um legislation in the sense that things are being developed, things are being put in place, used, and then legislation follows. And the same goes for IMO. Add to that um the last uh half year's um talks on on the right approach on how to implement the green transition has been not a final agreement to fully implement it yet, and it's still going on. Uh, that discussion. It just makes it a bit uncertain from the IMO perspective, I think. But it doesn't change the fact that we see ships out there. We know that uh crew out there working with uh various green fuels, and we can also read in the maritime news that the yachts are building more and more greener vessels, methanol, ammonia vessels, and uh and we need to have uh training facilities or course uh develop courses so we can make sure that the crew can handle these things. And it's uh again the reality is just overtaking legislation. So so we are doing green, the green translation, uh, and the legislation is uh coming behind.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah, because this is a matter of safety. Yes. And it really it really is important, especially if you are in the middle of the um Pacific Ocean. Um is it in any way possible to speed up the process, do you reckon?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I like to think that what we're doing with these projects when we apply for the the Maritime Fund to get these projects and we do the projects, we can see and we can show uh scientifically, and we can put data on the table that there is a need, and that's probably the best thing we can do. We can highlight that the facts, we can also shoot down assumptions, and that's just as important. And then um, yeah, I like to think that we're doing the best we can to push that order.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to add that um, I mean, at least as of now, there is reliance on the alternative design guidelines by IMO. Um, of course, that involves um risk assessment and relying on classification societies uh by the shipowners. Um and of course, the hope is that we move from uh these um uh risk-based uh systems, which are slower, to get approval, to um prescriptive um uh IMO regulation. But that takes time, and of course, it will take um collecting operational data and uh getting data from tests like the ones that we do in DBI. Um classification societies as well do their own kind of tests. And uh the hope is that of course all this will come together soon and we get uh regulation. But I mean, as you I agree with you, it's low, but I think it's necessary since we are talking about safety here, and um we are chatting uh to new territories when it comes to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Quite a lot of the ships being built these years are dual used. Yeah. Does that present uh an extra challenge?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah, it does because um and yeah, dual use there's also triple fuel use, so you introduce different systems that have to cooperate and coexist. And uh and again, if you need one detection system, just to take an example to detect uh a diesel oil fire, you will need a different detecting system to detect uh methanol fire. And if you add batteries to it, then you have uh a third way of detecting or handling it. So so yeah, it it certainly complicates things, but it's also super interesting because it's also a way to optimize. And and um as Lennart says, we can't we can't go too quick about it. We have to get the right data. But uh for sure it will be dual fuels and maybe even triple fuels, and that's just a way to optimize and uh in a green transition way.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Uh maybe to add as well. I mean the reason when we say dual fuels, let's say, for example, when we look at the methanol uh vessels being built now, which are dual fueled, at least when it comes to detection system, you will need uh infrared uh cameras, if at least for some vessels that we've seen. And that could work for heavy fuel oil as well, because it's just a fire. It will have some uh thermal uh footprint. So you you could use the same system. Um and the good thing is methanol if methanol fire, let's say in an engine room, will not probably not be a methanol fire because there is oil in there, there is a lot of stuff that could burn. So you that means as much as methanol doesn't produce uh radiant heat, you'll still have other things burning. So you'll use your anomal detectors, but the fire started from methanol, of course, and you'll use your smoke detectors, still the fire started from your um methanol as well. So that means systems are c will be complementary and that helps in in some sense.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

But when looking at safety from this point, uh with all these different aspects, what are the most important findings in your testing in this project?

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Um I would say the testing that we did, of course, um the most important one is we know that water mist uh doesn't work on methanol fires, but uh most vessels, at least that we've seen and visited uh during the project have water mist in it. And the reason for that it could cool down the flame. You don't need to use it to to um to extinguish the fire, but at the same time, of course, you have your uh alcohol-resistant form, and you could you could use that to cool down uh the flame. Um, so the most the one of the key findings is we need to do more tests. There are there's a lot of gaps, and uh that's what we are doing at DBI. We have a new project called Mephisto, for example, and this project is aiming to collect more data uh on uh detection systems like early warning uh detection system, which are for detecting gas, uh detecting the flame, and of course, of course, operation system. And in the new project that we are implementing now, we are focusing more on uh foam, uh different types of foam, both alcohol resistant and those that are not alcohol resistant.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Now, one of the key outcomes of this project is a decision support tool. Can you explain what that is and how it works?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

So the decision support tool came about uh during the gap analysis because we realized that um we could always analyze gaps. But then the thought of what about how will these gaps be used by different maritime uh stakeholders? Start from your let's say port authorities, marine insurers, uh ship designers, ship owners, shipyards, um, yeah, all that and more actually. So the thought was that we could um we are we saw the need to adapt this tool so that if you're a maritime stakeholder, you could use it to make um decisions, uh safety decisions that are relevant to you and that are specific to you. And of course, the aim is to speed up uh knowledge and uh speed up uh approval, speed up um yeah, all the safety decisions that you make uh so that in essence so that we have faster and safer clean transition.

unknown 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, and and also it's building on knowledge, it's building on on facts, and it's not building on God feeling or or uh that approach. So we we have uh heavy uh data in the uh system and you can you can build your you can take your decisions on on something known and uh data driven. I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

From your experience, how difficult are shipping companies finding this process and these choices at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Oh that's a very good uh again, that's a very good question because of course uh shipping companies look at it as a business and it has to make sense and it has to yeah, it has to make sense, but it's also where IMO again comes into play because there are no final decisions. So everything is up in the air. And and and everyone is still asking, will it be methanol, will it be ammonia, will it be hydrogen, will it be a mix? Where's where where you see batteries and all of this? So I can easily understand if ship owners find this uh super complicated and and also find it difficult to make a final decision. Um I've I mean we've heard ammonia is the starting point, then a little uh sorry, methanol is a starting point going into uh ammonia and then eventually hydrogen, but it can also be a mix, so that's the fantastic of it. It's still unknown and it's still uh a bit cloudy.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah, to add on that, um Anna's just mentioned something interesting. After the gap analysis, of course, we realized as well that these fuels, the three that we focused on methanol, ammonia, and hydrogen, when you look at the different um fuel handling areas, the four stones that I mentioned before, the maturity levels of each one of them are quite uh different. Uh so basically we developed a uh gap analysis matrix, which is basically using the technology readiness level two, a TRL from one to nine, to look at uh what maturity level are we uh in each of the zones. And we compared uh methanol, ammonia, and hydrogen. And of course, we know methanol, they've been uh quite developments. There are engines that work. Um, so the maturity levels of methanol are quite high, eight to nine. So that means it's ready for commercial uh adoption. Um methanol, of course, I think we six, seven for uh banking because there's there needs to be standardization of bunkering, uh at least when it comes to methanol. Secondly, ammonia, uh, because ammonia, we know ammonia is toxic, so there's a lot of fear around it at the moment. But at least we've there is uh pil pilot projects have been carried out uh in different ports to to see how bunkering could be done, at least ship to ship. Um, so it comes second, and um it's around 6-7 in most cases for ammonia. Um, there are ammonia engines that are ready for use right now uh commercially. Hydrogen comes uh distant odd because uh it's still new. We don't know whether it will be liquid uh hydrogen or gaseous hydrogen. Hydrogen has different um combustion properties and it could easily lead to explosion. So, yeah, there is a lot of caution around that, of course, and we found it still at uh most of the projects are still at pilot uh stages, uh level yeah, three, four, five around that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Well, it is very complex. Um when I listen to you guys describing this project, um we've had a lot of discussions around the industry about access to new fuels, basically. Can we even get it? Um when I listen to you describe this project, the whole safety matter and the complexity on board with various systems needed to actually handle it. Um, how do you see the balance between uh this project and these technologies in terms of safety and then the whole discussion that it may be bigger regarding the the access to it?

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah, that's uh again a very good question. Um we we look at it from a safety point of view, and uh and we've our our concerns in this in the beginning was all these assumptions we would like to shoot down and bring bring the facts to the table. But of course you're absolutely right. It uh it we have to have fuel available. And uh and we're also cooperating with some of the companies in Denmark who develop these fuels because they stand with the same or they have the same issues as to some degree as they do at sea, because they also have to handle it. And they have to scale up the manufacturing, they have to scale up the production of it. And when you start scaling up, you also start to increase the risks, of course, for for incidents and accidents. So it's a very um you could say it's an industry uh with a large growth capacity, uh capability, but it's also something that you really have to make sure that the growth is on a safe way uh and uh it's taken care of in a safe perspective.

unknown 35:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

So at the moment, who's waiting for who?

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah, that's also uh I mean who's waiting for who? Um of course the manufacturers would like to have orders saying that the shipping companies request more fuel. Uh on the other hand, the shipper uh ship owners would like to build new vessels provided that they can have the fuel. And where do we bunker? Is it uh far east? Is it in Europe? And um it you most likely we will see a change in the routes as well because if the vessels will will start to to go where the fuel is available. So if there's uh a few hubs, let's say in in in Europe and in China or Singapore, where the the green fuel is available, then that's where you will do the bunkering. And uh and that might uh conflict a bit with how we do it today. So there's really a lot of uh interesting things going on, and we will also see how it will influence uh the transport, maybe not the transport of goods, because goods will always be needed, but maybe where you where you start bunkering, and that's where the green uh corridors come in play, uh where you see where is the fuel available, and then the vessel and the traffic will have to adjust to that. Uh so that's it's super interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah, maybe to add on uh what uh Annas has explained quite explained quite uh comprehensively, at least for methanol in my view, personal view, is that uh safety is not the biggest challenge right now. It's more of the fuel availability and and of course at the right cost. Um ammonia, you can speak of safety, hydrogen you can speak of safety, but yeah, methanol is yeah, it's ready and uh it's more of it being available at the right cost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

And regarding your tool then and all the knowledge that you've gathered, how exactly is that going to be making a process? How is it going to be used? Just very low-key explained.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

So this tool um is based on um the garbage analysis of the regulation. And uh the idea is to have um a system, uh, whether uh it could be an app, or we are still deciding on that, or it could be a web-based tool where you input um as a maritime stakeholder, you access the tool, you input um on which stakeholder you are, you choose which kind of fuel you are interested in, in this case, uh ammonia, methanol, hydrogen, and then you choose the type of ship um, whether it's a new build or whether it's uh retrofit, at least that's what we started with. And then you choose which uh fuel handling zone that you want to look at your safety issues at um the four that I mentioned before. And then the tool will do its analysis, um, and then what comes out is uh the safety considerations um that you should have in place for that zone. The safety considerations are what could go wrong, of course, and then what are the countermeasures uh or the safety functions that should uh um yeah, the countermeasures for the risks that you just saw, the safety uh considerations. And then it will also, as an output, uh it will give you the reference document that was that was that was referred to, and then which chapters of that reference document. And then in the end, you will get um stakeholder-specific uh recommendations that are meant for you, and that will help you make your decisions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Does that also include uh does that also include the way that crews need to work?

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, it includes the human factors and uh the procedures that the crew needs to follow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, and it can also, of course, it will also be a big help for how the company can uh document its in compliance and it's followed up with the with the um regulation that is in play. Yeah, because you have a reference and it will uh hopefully improve the documentation, make it easier for the companies.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Yeah, and the the tool is uh developed so that it's um dynamic. We are able to add in new fuel. Uh when the regulation changes, it should be able to um yeah, know it. We are thinking of having it uh connected to some AI system so that or yeah, be updated uh as the regulation changes because they are updates to regulations either on the IMO level or the classification societies that we are referring to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

How did you go out into the industry and uh and uh get acquainted with the current experience with handling these fuels because they are in use?

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah, for example, I mean for example, methanol, that's the one that at least we could get access to in Denmark. Uh there are methanol uh vessels uh operating around um Denmark. Um the the idea was to get a feeling of what the crew feels when psychologically when it comes to working with these fuels, uh, what they think, uh what they thought before they started, and what we what they think now. And of course, they are quite comfortable working with uh methanol as a fuel. It's just like any other fuel. Um we didn't have access to our ammonia ship, of course, because uh there is not much now to see uh hydrogen as well, but we did a lot of studies and uh literature and uh talking with people who have been uh working on such projects before.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yeah, and I think we also uh visited uh Port of Votre Dam to see from the port perspective on how to bunker, and as as Port of Vader Dam is one of the ports that makes uh methanol uh available uh right now. Um just to get the other point of view, you could say, from the port towards the ship.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah, yeah. Now that uh Anas has spoke of uh visits. We also visited uh several engine manufacturers, even for ammonia, or we visited um an engine manufacturer here in Denmark, and uh yeah, um yeah, and that helped us uh get the knowledge of where the industry is and uh where we are in terms of uh readiness.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

How do you work together with in engine companies, for instance, or you know, the industry as such, uh, to take some practical experience and and add it to what you are working on on a on a more theoretical level?

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Well, you can say right now for the Meta fuel project, it was still um looking into readily legislation, finding the gaps, uh, etc. The next projects we're looking into uh would be more tangible in the sense that we can involve uh manufacturers of extinguishing systems, detection systems, um, etc. And also uh also, of course, engine manufacturers, but also uh manufactures of uh piping systems used for surveillance surveilling fuel but also handling fuel uh like meshanol.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

When looking ahead, what do you see as the next steps for the industry?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Um I could use uh within the MetaFuel project, we had a kind of a roadmap uh as is now, like in the medium term, I mean in the short term, in the medium term, and in the long term, what could be the steps? At least in the medium term, um, to continue using uh risk-based um approval systems as uh recommended by um IMO uh through the alternative um um alternative design arrangement. And of course, uh any maritime stakeholder who wants to use our decision tool to help them make a decision, they could use it because it's ready now. They could reach out to us and we could continue uh on further discussions on that. And then in the medium term, um continue carrying out uh more tests, um continue collecting operational data, have data that is able to validate um moving to more prescriptive uh uh uh regulations and rules in the in the long term.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yeah. And if I may, we will continue looking into mesolum. We have uh we we finished uh metafuel, we're looking into this uh Mephisto Mephisto project as it goes uh going on, but we will Also start uh a new parallel track on ammonia where we want to look further into how to handle ammonia in a safe way from the safety perspectives that ammonia presents, which are quite uh not or not not at all the same as uh meth methanol. So it's just uh we're continuing down that track with the with the green fuels, and hopefully at some time we will do the same with hydrogen in parallel to ammonia. So we're on the track for the green transition, and we want to be in all three fuels, and we want to be uh yeah, bring knowledge to the table for all three fuels.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

And uh with hydrogen, uh of course we do a lot of uh demonstration uh tests in DPI, not targeted towards specific application to maritime, but we do a lot of experiments to explore and look at how uh hydrogen behaves uh where either as a fire or as an explosion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

How do you see the difference between the different sizes of ships? Because at the moment we've got MESC, for instance, running on methanol in some aspect on dual use engines, but um they are a very large shipping company and and they're sort of able to lead the way. Um but we need this, obviously, the green transition to spread also into smaller ships over time. How do you see that process?

SPEAKER_01 45:20

From uh what we've seen during our work, um, at least for methanol, there's a lot of preference to uh medium size to larger size of vessels. Um, because of course methanol takes almost two and a half times the size of the tank to cover the same distance as uh conventional fuel. Um the smaller um shipping companies that we've seen, um, they are quite hesitant when it comes to uh methanol because yeah, maybe it's a crew transfer company, for example. They want space for their crew and tools, and you don't want the tank taking most space. So there's a trade-off between yeah, the size of the tank and um yeah, and the size of vessel as as well, of course. Yeah, because you want to it's uh it's a cost issue at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Yeah, and and and as of as you mentioned, mask, of course, they're front runners, and we need front runners to to lead the green transition. And and uh of course it's a big uh challenge for mask because everyone is looking at what mask does. And and um, but they are so important because uh they dare to do the the first steps, and they yeah, they are front runners, and that's what uh will drive uh a large part of the green transition.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

But over time we are aiming at becoming uh climate neutral over time across the industry, also across smaller ship types. Um how do you see the importance of a framework like this and the testing that you're doing in terms of having a tool that you can reach out for and getting a bit wiser on the matter?

SPEAKER_02 46:58

I mean, I uh as I see it, we need to do these uh projects in the beginning. And and the the worst thing that could happen for the green transition uh is that if we do it too quick, too fast, and then we will have uh accidents or incidents because we don't need something, we don't need any burning platforms. We need to do this in a safe, a proper manner uh that shows that it can be done, and of course it can be done in in uh in a safe way, and it can also be done in a way where the crew is not uh worried about uh worried about handling the fuels. They can sleep at night without worrying whether the the vessel will uh catch fire or anything, but we have to do it properly from the beginning. Uh so so I look very I think there's a very bright uh green future ahead and it's doable. We just need to do it uh correct from the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Well, thank you very much. It's clear that the green transition is not just about choosing new fuels, it also it's also about understanding and managing the risks that come with them. A big thank you to both of you, Lynnet and Annas, for joining us and sharing your insights. And thank you for to everyone for listening. If you have comments or ideas for topics that we should cover in future episodes, feel free to reach out to us. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Thank you for having us.