BONUS EP // Julian Bourne & Matt Pritchard // Sellar

The way we sell & deliver beer is largely the same as it was 25 years ago.

Sellar is on a mission to change that.

Are they on to something? I think so, but you be the judge…

In this bonus episode of the Path Markers Podcast, Julian Bourne & Matt Pritchard, two of the Founders of Sellar, take on some tough questions and share their vision for the radically different industry they see coming within the next 5 years.

Check them out - Sellar.io

Transcript

0:06

Welcome everyone. Welcome to the bonus episode of the Path Makers Podcast, and in true bonus episode format, what we're gonna do today is take a bit of a different approach. It's gonna be a bit shorter. The idea is to kind of hit with some hard questions. Ready for it? And try and move things along to a couple of minutes for each question kind of thing. A little bit of back and forth, but keep things moving along, really engaging, flow to things. So, that's the way it's gonna work. I wanna say first and foremost, we've gotta introduce the guest today. So thank you very much to Julian Bourne and Matt Pritchard for joining me today from two of the Founders of Sellar. Thanks guys. Cheers for having us on. Yeah, and I have to say, obviously. For myself, but also I guess from anyone who's enjoyed the podcast, the first three episodes so far, a massive thank you to you and the team for making this happen because, quite frankly, this wouldn't have happened without your support. So I really appreciate you guys taking a chance on supporting this. You've done all the work, you put it all together. You well, yeah, But it wouldn't have happened without you. So thank you so much. You guys ready to get into it? Yeah, let's do it. Amazing. Alright. First question. You guys ready for this? We'll find out. Alright, so you guys are about to launch Sellar distribution, right? So, and I think next week, if I'm not mistaken. Is that because you believe the traditional wholesale model is dead? I think that's a very difficult question to answer. I think anyone trying to predict the future is... I mean, it's speculation, right? It's interesting conversation. But if you look at the reality of what's happening, I think in the last five years that we've been in the industry, we know one thing for sure, and that is that margins are thinner than ever. And so when we look at what's happening, we just see it as the way that distribution works today needs to change. And yeah, I think over the last five years we've seen. Well, we've seen firsthand the struggle of the actual breweries that we've been working with, but we've also seen a lot of the struggle of those kind of old school distributors, right? Like, so will, can they adapt? Yes. Will they need to adapt? I think so. But yeah, I think the way that the industry works in five years time is to the way that it works today. Everyone's got an opinion on this, right? I mean, what are your thoughts on this? Well, yeah, I mean, I would probably take a step back to go forward. So I think if you look at wholesale, let's take it back 15 years ago, right? What was going on? You had breweries, a few breweries, not many, but a few breweries kind of around the country or dispersed around the country. And then you started to get these people that started to see craft beer and get really engaged with this thing of good beer. New beer, different beer. And they were congregating, of course, at home, maybe doing bottle shares, that kind of stuff. But going to places like The Hanging Bat, North Bar, The Rake down the road from here. And so there was almost like these hubs for that community to go to. But there was a real big need to connect those disparate breweries to those disparate hubs. Mm-hmm. Um. And it made a lot of sense at that time for craft wholesale to play that role. But not just that because, at the same time it was all very early days and so not a lot of people even knew what craft beer was. So that same wholesaler that was doing that connecting was also able to go down the road in those places. And with the sales team, very professional, good salespeople and very professional organized, logistics and businesses go and talk to people and sell people on this thing that was craft beer and all these great breweries. And so if you look back on that, you're like, that is such a perfect place for craft wholesale. Right? And that's why there was such a boom in it, I think, because, and it's really important to say that craft beer would not be where it is today without that, right? Like by... Not at all. Right? Mm. It was incredibly important to create what we see today. But as you have said, and you know, you guys, as you said, you've only really been in it for five years, but over the last 15 years, that has changed dramatically. And I think there's a few ways that has changed. One is competition, right? So if you're a wholesaler, back at that time, you were fulfilling a need that didn't exist, right? Like there was no one doing that. Nowadays, you have breweries delivering direct. You have a lot of wholesalers. So competition, Even within wholesale. You've got breweries that were purchased by big global breweries that are now distributed everywhere. You've got courier, you've got Sellar, you've got all these things that are doing that in some way. The second thing is consumer, back then, the wholesalers doing an incredible job of creating the community by bringing new consumers into new accounts, but also new people into craft beer. Nowadays, a lot of people know what craft beer is. Like the ones that can afford it, the ones that are passionate about it, they're into it. The ones that aren't aren't. Right. So don't get me wrong, that can still grow, but it's not gonna double, triple like it was doing in that time. And then the third thing is margin. And I think there's a couple of things that a wholesaler does, which is... people, selling. And then the other thing is logistically like they're buying stock in advance. They're managing stock. There's a whole logistical part to it. And to your point, I think one of the things is back then a brewery would happily spend whatever it was, 15, 20, 25% margin on that because it was a huge need at the time. But nowadays, when margin's tight, what's the value you place on that? And I think that's one of the key questions. So I think when you look at all that. You know, my answer would be it's not dead. It's not dead. It still serves a purpose for some brands, some people are trying to do certain things. Some people that might be more national, I don't think it'll go away. Having that touchpoint with an incredibly good salesperson and a wholesaler is still a very valuable thing for some bars and for some breweries. But like craft beer, probably, there's too many for what the need is now. And for a lot of breweries, they won't see the value in spending that margin on that. So they're gonna try and find other ways if they're available. So, and that's that evolution that you guys talk about. So evolution will have to happen a hundred percent. I don't know what that looks like when you say really great salespeople from say the wholesalers. What are your thoughts? Do you not see the breweries as having equal access to that same great sales talent? A hundred percent, but it depends on where you're trying to sell. So if you're trying to sell... a brewery will only have a certain amount of money to spend on a sales team, and quite frankly, probably, I would advise people to be very careful on how much you spend on a sales team.'cause in the UK labor cost is very high, right? Mm-hmm. So you might have that in certain places, but if you're a brewery that wants to be national, then you're gonna have what do you call it, white spots or spots that you're not covering. And having access to that with other means is an important thing. Yeah. Not for everyone. Don't get me wrong, because that's not, and that's the difference because there's not a lot of breweries that are doing that these days. Yeah. But for some there is, right? So there is a role for that to play. What size is that role? I don't think it's as big as it is today. Is it 50%? Is it 10%? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. To be honest, I think the wholesale model makes perfect sense for the way that the industry operated like 10, 15 years ago, right? Like, again, we came into the space about five and a half years ago. And like, yeah, I guess the way that we kind of understood the space to be operating was new craft brewery pops up. They obviously haven't really made a name for themselves yet. They're never gonna get representation through like those wholesalers. So they have to get started by selling to their local market. How do they do that? Like they have to, you know, it's probably one of the Founders that's going out, selling to the local pubs, bars, restaurants, bottle shops in the area, and maybe they're chucking kegs in the back of their car. Yeah. To do the deliveries, right? Yeah. So that's how it starts. And then maybe they grow and maybe they professionalize a little bit and they get a van and they're running sort of a local route. If you're gonna grow. You obviously have to get that national reach, right? Like you are so limited in your local market in terms of the number of places that you can sell into. So to get growth, which is what you need to survive as a business, where do you go? It made perfect sense. You work with somebody who has storage, has logistics, has wheels, can help support your sales efforts across the country, whether that's in certain regions, whether that's nationally. Um, so yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. But I think the challenge that there is, which we've kind of already discussed, is just there isn't room for that anymore. So you need to find a new way as a brewery, I think, to scale, like the higher margin, direct sales. A hundred percent. Yeah. So that's the challenge. Yeah. Because as you say, I mean, scaling up a team, national team, that's gonna be really difficult. A hundred. You don't wanna become a logistics company, you don't wanna become a bank, which is where, as the amount of like accounts receivables and different accounts that you're working with scales up. You know, you're basically managing a float, right? Those are complicated things when you kind of set out to start a brewery. Yeah. Yeah. Make great beer. No, you're right. And that's why there's a bit of an evolution, a right sizing. And because you're right, what you're saying covers off, I think where probably 70, 80% of breweries sit. And there needs to be other solutions. But yeah, going back to the question, do I think it's dead? No, I don't. I think like... Very rarely are things that black and white, you know, like I'm Canadian, like Blackberry, right? Was like the rage. I mean, Blackberry only, I think, officially closed down their business about five years ago. Four, not even maybe three years ago, right? But really Blackberry, there was a lot of problems in what, by 2000, right? So like it is for craft beer today, I think the trend isn't in the right direction, but that doesn't mean that you can't evolve. Right. Mm-hmm. But that being said, a big piece of the evolution needs to come from somewhere else. And that's why, you know, that's why I like what you guys do, because I think you're tackling the things that you just said, it's like, for most breweries, that model doesn't work for them. It doesn't. Right. And so there needs to be new solutions. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that, um, kind of struck a chord with... well, Sellar Shipping, to be honest, was what we found was most breweries that were around just did not have a seat at that table. Yes. So that they're massively underserved. Um, yes. And underrepresented. So especially when you consider that wholesalers are taking less risks, they probably wanna stick with the brands that they know will sell through the products they know will sell through. Yeah. Yeah. No, and that's part goes back to their model, right? Is is that they, that's kind of how, what you have to do in their, in their place. You can't, you can't, um, knock them for that'cause that's how that model works. Yeah. But you're right. And that's another thing that we didn't touch on, but like, but you know, maybe for when the world is a hundred breweries it works. When it's 2000 breweries then, yeah, exactly right. Um, so yeah, totally agree with that. Okay. So then on the back of that. You're, you've got Sellar Distribution, like how is that different? Why is that the right thing now? Do you wanna say this one or should I, I'm happy to take it. So I think one thing I like to start with is, what's the same about Sellar Distribution? And one of the things that we really, um, want to make sure we keep is the same, reliable, consolidated dray experience that wholesalers become synonymous with. So that's one thing that we, we want to keep. What's gonna be, what's different fundamentally about Sellar Distribution is that we don't have the overheads, um, that traditional wholesale have. So we don't have big sales team going out selling the product. We don't have big warehouse. We're not stocking you know, millions of pounds worth of products. So what that means is fundamentally we can run the service at cost. We can run it about a third of the price of traditional wholesale. And what we can do with that is then give the margin back to where it belongs. We can, we can give margin back to suppliers overall cost of the product Uh uh, to retail should come down as well. And I think the, yeah. The other point is that, by not having the big warehouses and not having to buy and sit on the inventory, it means the full product range is available. So as opposed to it being a couple of skews from some brands, it can be every skew from every brand. And I think that's really cool that everyone can participate. I, I think for us it was a case of this, I don't think we had this vision when we started Sellar first of all. I think over the last five years seeing firsthand what, um, You know, people have struggled with, and, you know, by trying to, by trying to deliver a solution to the market, you hear everything that's good about it. You hear everything that's bad about it. Um, we know that one of the things that, uh, pubs, bars, restaurants, really value about the existing distribution model is the consolidation and the reliability of that, of that dray, right? We have a lot of firsthand experience working with couriers and, I guess we came to the conclusion a few years in that it was only ever gonna be a plaster over, um, you know, the real solution. But we've also talked about, I guess some of the, you know, how the landscape has changed and how maybe that's put some pressure on this old model. So the, I guess the insight that we have is, can you provide that experience? Can you take what's good about that experience, but just offer that and cut out the rest of the cost, um, so that you can still meet that, uh, that customer need, But I guess if you look at the model, for example, wholesalers, they buy and hold stock, right? So by buying and holding the stock, you are taking on the inventory risk. That is why a lot of breweries don't get a seat at the table, right? So the Sellar model, you don't have that inventory risk. You, you know, we know what's in stock across the country. We don't have anywhere to store it. It's all at the individual breweries, so you don't pay for a big warehouse to, to, you know, um, house all the stock. I guess again, you look at a wholesaler and they have those, you know, big, uh, sales teams, big operations team, big finance teams. Um, through the software that we've built, we can, we could provide a lot of that, um, that same value, but do so in a way without the overhead. So what you're left with is any product, listed, where it can be delivered on a consolidated, reliable dray in the same way as a, as a distributor. And that can all be done at a third of the cost. Um, so yeah, I mean that's what we're, that's what we're working on. So that's pretty good. So, and then that, and is that saving then passed on to the brewery then? Is that the idea? That's it, yeah. So it will cost the brewery about a third of what, you know, traditional wholesale costs. But the idea is that also it's available to, to, to anyone. They don't need to, um, you know, they have that scalability from, from day one. Yeah. Okay. So I know it's a bit different from what you just described, but, you know,Eebria was I guess a digital marketplace, online marketplace, and they described themselves as a national drinks distributor. Um, so why didn't that work? Yeah, it's a really interesting one. I think the vision for Eebria was great, right? Every product can be available from every supplier and it can be, um, delivered without having to store, buy and store the products, right? Two fundamental issues, I think why, um, it didn't work so well. And one we're very familiar with, which is that couriers just simply aren't fit for purpose for the drinks industry. Um, the issues that we saw essentially is that kegs are just heavy. Yeah. They, they're not, uh, they're not, they can't be easily transported by the couriers, and cans, bottles are fragile. Right. But I think thirdly, the, the reliability of the couriers is just never gonna be the same as direct delivery or, or a dray service where they come at a time when the pub wants 'em to come, they take away the empties. Thatm that same service level... Um, so as, yeah, I think, I think there's, I think there's customers that are, that it obviously works for, right? Like there's a segment of the market that is like highly rotational and they value so much just being able to get in, um, like the weirdest, wackiest stuff, that they kind of put up with the pain of uh, couriers to, to, because they need to. Yeah. Right. It's not becau, but I think what you're, what you're kind of getting at is we, we kind of saw firsthand how, um, you know, couriers would only get you so far. Like, but then you still need to have that, um, that consolidation and reliability to really, um, I guess solve the problem. It's interesting the Eebria piece because when we started Sellar, um, we obviously came across Eebria in like the research and they were solving something quite different to us when we, when we got started. And I guess the point that I'm making there is despite the fact that that existed, uh, there was still a need that, um, we were, uh, tackling. And the way I kind of, I guess summarize it is like. Eebria was great for the, you know, those breweries that were underrepresented by traditional wholesale to access a market outside of their sort of locale. Um, what Sellar was really built for in the first instance was more of like a, uh, like Shopify or like trade sales platform for everything that was happening within your, uh, direct delivery area. Yeah, right. So, um, you know, some of the aspects of, you know, I remember the, the first brewery that we worked with, like when we came across Eebria, was, well, you know, why can't you just use this? Why doesn't this solve your problem? And well, they would never do their local deliveries through couriers, right? They, if they, if everything went through that, they wouldn't know who the customer was. And if they didn't know who the customer was, they wouldn't be able to edit their pricing or manage their payment terms or, you know, even see who was ordering and how much, and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Yeah. So there was a, there was a separate need that I think, um, you know, we sold, we obviously moved into helping out on the, the national delivery side with Sellar Shipping. Um, but I think that just complimented what we were, what we were already doing. Yeah. Wow. You come in, you come in, uh, come in with the heat. A couple questions. You, you, you sound like you don't think, uh, Sellar Distribution is gonna work. No, not at all. I, sorry. I do, I do think it'll work. I don't, I don't, I don't mean it, I don't mean it to come across that way. I think obviously we're, you know, um, trying to have the tough conversations'cause, 'cause they're the right ones to have. But for sure, I think, you know, like, um. I, I think, you know, it's obviously very hard for me to say if it'll work because, because ultimately, like if it'll work is more of the, is more of a answering what your ambition is with it. I don't know what the ambition is, so I don't know if it will work in, in, in your terms, but do I think it will work on paper? Do I think it makes sense? A hundred percent right. Um, I think, you know, one of the things is, um, if you look at the craft beer industry, obviously it's, it is a very new industry and I think sometimes it's, we forget that, um, for, for a lot of us that have been in it for a long time. But you know, 15 years is not very long. Right? 15, 20, whatever you want to define it. And I think if you look at that, like we really have had a first wave and obviously, you know, obviously times are more difficult now and there'll be other waves to it. It'll be around for a long time. What will that will look like? We don't know. Um. And I think that, um, in that first wave, one of the things is. We had almost like really 95, 99% of breweries, like people came out and the focus, I think rightly so, has been on, on making good beer, really good beer in, in, in some cases, but focusing on good beer. So quality and, and in a lot of respects, brand and aesthetics. Um, and very much focused on a consumer that is like a craft beer consumer, right? That, that that core craft beer consumer. And I think if you, if you. To oversimplify it. I think if you look at most of the breweries that exist today, that's what they do. And that's where their focus is. And, and, and, and I don't say that in a negative way. I think that's a very positive thing. But I think if you look forward and, you know, where do we, what's the next step? How do we get to the, you know, what's the next level of this whole thing? And I think what, what is needed is, is breweries and people that will help us think differently. Right? Because I think if you look at who's succeeding today, because it's a tough time, who's succeeding today are, The people that do those first things I mentioned incredibly well. So, you know, like The Kernels, The Redwillows, The um, The Verdants, The Two Flints, you know, you name 'em, like the people that are doing that well are succeeding. Right? Um, the other thing that is succeeding is the people that have brought a little bit of a different thinking to things. So you have like, you know, Bruce, who's gonna be on the next po, uh, next episode from Left-Handed Giant, like Left-Handed Giant, are incredibly good at hospitality. Right. And they also own a lot of their assets. They, they're, they're, they've got real estate that's different, right? You got Vault City, who I, you know, I've worked with Steve for, for a couple of years now, and, you know, when they set out, I think nowadays they're very much, they're very in the craft beer community, or at least most of it. But when they set out, it was kind of like. They were, they were, they weren't necessarily accepted into craft beer because they were doing something that was very different. Right. Um, and then once people realized it was just really good and really fun, people kind of accepted them back in. And there's a host of, of different examples like that, maybe people that have stayed small and and focus a lot on the local community. Those are the people that are succeeding now. But for people to succeed going forward, you know, being able to either pivot to new expertise or bring in people or work with products that bring in new expertise. So for instance, you know, someone that I'm, I, I I speak to quite often is Chris Lewington. I don't know if you guys know, do you know Chris Lewington at all? Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like someone like that who at the end of the day loves good beer, right? Loves good beer, but man, every brewery in this country should talk to that guy because he will tell you how to save a boatload of money on things that you don't absolutely need to spend money on. Like stuff that I don't understand, but like chiller science and water science and all this kind of stuff. And it's like we need to be doing those things because then that frees up money to do the things that, that, that we need to do to reach new audiences and pivot a little bit and, you know, not be different than who we are today necessarily, but, but at least allow us to, you know, to, to, to, to spend a bit more in places that, um, or, or to save more money or to spend more money in places that allow us to reach new, new consumers. Um, and I think you guys are the same, right? Like, I think what you're doing, like no one, in, in the, like in brewery, should be, should be upset about Sellar Distribution. Everyone should be very happy about this because they don't have to use it. Right? It, it's up to them. Everyone will make their choice on whether they think it's the right thing to do. But what you're doing is, is exactly what you said. You're taking things that are, you believe that these things are probably not worth the value people are paying in traditional, um, route to markets. So whatever you, you mentioned stock, you mentioned sales teams, all that kind of stuff. And I, I agree with many of those things. And so don't spend that money there. I'm gonna offer you a solution, um, that allows you to do the things that you have to do, gives you access to the things that you might not have access to right now, but allows you to save that money. And that's a different way of thinking. And you guys are able to do that'cause your background is not beer, it's technology, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a different way of thinking and I think as a whole, we need to be really open to that kind of stuff because, um, you always have a choice whether you want to do it or not as a brewery. But secondly, you know, that's the kind of stuff, um, that will allow us to free up funds to do things differently, et cetera. You know, another one that bugs me all the time, I, I don't think you guys will solve it, but I, I won't, I'll throw it at you anyway, is like, you know, like, look at the keg situation. Right. It's another one, right? Like you gotta use Kegstar in this country, pretty much, right? Yeah. It's one of the biggest cost to breweries, right? Yeah. So anyone that's coming with solutions to these problems, whether or not that, whether or not people will choose to use them or not, but anyone who can bring a solution, um, I can't remember the name of the CO2, uh, company from, I believe they're from Denmark. Dahmer. Dahmer. Dahmer. Anyway, you know, they brought CO2 recovery. CO2 was a huge problem for many years. Still is. And, and you know, they brought a affordable solution to what, previously you had to spend like a million pounds to get a CO2 recovery solution. Great, right? Like, let's embrace all this stuff and, and so yeah, anyway, I've taken the long route to coming back to do I think it will work? Yes, I do. What's that looks like, I don't know. On paper it sounds like an incredibly good solution that people should be, um, uh, supporting. Yeah. I mean, ultimately with all these things like, you know, you find out, right? The market decides. Of course. Yeah. You know what, whether you guys know well enough, whether it, it's worth it. But I think like again, you come back to, you know, you try and. I guess you try and focus less on like the speculation and like more on the signals. And you know, one of the things I think for us from the very beginning of, um, uh, of Sellar is like, did we know that we were gonna get to where we got to? It's like, um, maybe not exactly here, but did we know that there was a problem that was worth going after and solving? And it was, you know, yes. So let's, there's a hard problem. Let's run towards solving it and will we figure it out? I mean, again, like, have we solved that first problem? Maybe. Will we solve this next problem? We think so, right? Yeah. Uh, but there's always people who will tell you it's not gonna work. We've had that throughout, you know? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Since the very beginning. Yeah. It's funny, we talk about this analogy of we see a door where A problem is, and we open the door and we go into the room. And then there's another door, bigger room. It's just never ending. Yeah. There, there's, there's a never ending, um, number of problems that you, that you can solve. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, I I think what you're getting at there is like, 'cause when we started it was solving that, um, you know, that kind of sales admin problem and like, I guess, You know, uh, just communicating availability. Yeah. In its simplest form, it was like a digital online availability list, you know, that was, that was it. That was the first problem you hear about the next problem, which was, right, how do I grow my sales out beyond my local area? It's like, okay, well, you know, did the shipping thing and it's like the next problem you hear about is, ah, it's just so difficult and expensive to like find new customers. So, you know, we launched Sellar Market mean. The, the, um, we, earlier this year, we launched a credit product. Um, to be honest, that was a problem that we heard about from the very beginning, but we just weren't necessarily in the position to, to solve that yet. But I guess it's, it's just a nonstop journey of, um, I guess being guided by, uh, your, your customers, people who are using your platform. Like what, what matters to them? What are the, what's keeping them up at night? And are we in a position where we can provide a solution and, that's it. And you kind of, you, you follow that and cool. Yeah, just keep going. It's a good attitude. We need people like that. Yeah. Okay. So it's, feels like we've talked a little bit about Sellar Distribution, but maybe not so much about specifically like what, what, what it is. So tell me a little bit like what is Sellar Distribution? How does that actually work? Well, I think. Sellar distribution is building on, I guess, the platform that we've already, um, like developed. So, again, if you look at how you actually, you know, execute this, uh, this new way of doing things where you, you take out all the, all the blow and you look at, well, what Sellar already has, the adding in the, the distribution piece is, yeah. It's just. It is just building on what we've got. So, give you an example. We currently work with about 300 different drinks makers across the country. Um, they use our platform, um, to like sell to their customers and we know exactly what products they have in stock. Um, you know, where those products are across the country. Um, orders typically come in after the weekend, right? Sunday night, Monday. So by the close of play Monday, we know exactly who's ordered what and where it needs to go. So we can say to, you know, Brewery A, okay, you've got one pallet of this skew, one pallet of that skew, one pallet of this skew, this is where it's going. You get it to that, um, that local, um, like cross docking hub. And we'll consolidate that with, you know, the Pubs other orders, and then it goes out on that final mile dray. Um. But you can't, you can't do that without having the platform that we've already built to understand, you know, the ordering and what's available and where it needs to go. And, um, yeah, dunno, if anything you wanna add to that. No, I think you answered that fine. Okay. So then you have these hubs, uh, you have dray, like so you're delivering things right? So, and kind of everything else is taken care of outside of it. So the brewery, the orders come in through the, the platform. The notifications go out to the breweries. This is what's being ordered. You've gotta ship it to these, this hub or these hubs. Um, and then you guys go out and you deliver that product at a third of the cost essentially of what traditional wholesale. Okay. So that's Sellar Distribution. But what is, what does that, what does that rollout look like now? Because do you have, you have one hub going live next week, is that right? Yeah. And then where does, where does it, what, what, what's that? And where does it go from there? Well, it's a funny one 'cause we're starting in a way which seems counterintuitive to most people. So the first hub in Edinburgh, we will be doing local deliveries only. And the reason why we're starting with that is because we can collect and deliver at a really high efficiency. So most breweries in in, in Edinburgh will actually probably be selling to a lot of the same customers. So it makes sense for us to just consolidate the orders that are already happening there and just start doing the deliveries. So the idea is by building efficiency in each, in each region that we operate in locally, we can then tie the hubs together without going out with vans with like two, three kegs in them. Okay. Yeah, I mean the, to be honest, this was something that was a bit of a surprise. I don't think this is what we initially planned, but again, you know, you talk to customers about this, um, kind of vision or, or, or, or thing that you have and you uncover, you know, little nuggets of insights like this. So, um, you know, when we're talking to breweries about, you know, how much it was actually costing them to do, you know, local deliveries, national deliveries, all these kinds of things, it turns out running their own local, um, vans is extremely expensive. It's, it's expensive. I mean, it's, that's already costing a lot of people between 10, 15%. So, but if you have a bunch of breweries that are all going out with half filled vans to all the same places, there's obviously by working together and sharing resource, there's efficiency to be gained there. That is essentially what has become the, the rollout plan, and that's what we're, um, starting with. Uh, yeah. Next week. And um, yeah, as we grow out that sort of hub by hub model, you can then start link layering in all the, all the um, you know, the national delivery. But so then you link the hubs essentially afterwards? Correct. Yeah. So what are we, so you guys are event, I mean all the goal is to take this national, is that the idea? By the end of next year. By the end of next year. Okay. Awesome. You. Everyone heard that? Yeah. Assuming all goes to plan. No, I know. I mean, obviously a plan is a plan, right? So you see how it goes and you go from there. But that's exciting. Really, really cool stuff. So, to, to close off the discussion, I think like one thing is obviously we've talked a lot about the exciting stuff that's happening, but like, let's go like way into the future, right? So like, you guys seem to be people that are, well, obviously young, fairly new into the industry, although you've learned a lot in five, five and a half years. Um, and, uh, and ultimately you're on something that is, uh, seems like a very, you know, medium long-term thing. So what is. You know, you're sitting back, you guys are, we're sitting around for a pint in 10 to 20 years and we're talking about it. Um, how do you measure success? What does success mean for like Sellar in that kind of crazy long time period? Oh, that's a big question. That's a tough one. That's a big one. Um, I don't know. I think, look Sellar started because we had some friends who ran a brewery and, um, described their B2B sales as archaic and a ball ache, and we literally started the company to help them solve a problem. Everything that we do is about trying to help breweries succeed. So if in 10, 20 years time we see, you know, um, a thriving like community of, you know, craft drinks makers, um, succeeding, and we've made it easier for, um, you know, that, um, community to succeed, that to me is the success. Okay. Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah, just, just that's a very good answer. And to stay and, and to stay in business. Well, I mean, that's the, the reality is for the last five years, that's how it's felt. I mean, that's been, that, that has been the struggle. That is what's at stake. Um, so, you know, I meant for us to stay in business. Well, for everyone. For everyone. For everyone to stay in business. We all need to stay in business. Yeah. Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah. You're not wrong. Cool. Um, and if someone wants to reach out to you, uh, to ask more, to talk about Sellar Distribution, Sellar, whatever, like what, what do they do? What's, what's, how do you do that? Yeah, I mean, best way is probably getting on the, the website, I mean, yeah. I mean, we're We're easy to reach. It's Matt. Okay. Or Julian @Sellar.io Um, but yeah, we'd love to have a chat with anyone who wants talk about it. Awesome. And you've got a great team as well, so I can. We do, we do, we do. We do. Very fortunately, it's, it's no longer just the three of us. Things started going a lot better when it was not just the three of us anymore. Amazing. Well, thank you both for coming on today and again, like, thanks. I can't thank you enough for, for the support in making this happen. Um. Yeah. And yeah, all the best. I'm really looking forward to, obviously with working with, with Vault City, I've heard a little bit about the role that's about to come. Excited to see that happen, but excited to see the, the full plan come out over the next year. Yeah. Fingers, fingers crossed everything goes to plan and, uh, amazing. We'll see. Thanks guys. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Cool on.