EP 04 // Bruce Gray // Left Handed Giant

I sometimes ask myself…What would Bruce do?

Bruce Gray started the roll out of BrewDog Bars, then founded (two) wholesalers, and then, alongside Jack Granger and Rich Poole, started Left Handed Giant, an absolute model of a brewing business that everyone should study.

He’s completed beer.

Tune into Episode 4 to hear the journey, the learnings and some great pieces of wisdom from the most experienced person in beer….Bruce Gray.

And a special thanks to the team at Sellar for making PATH Makers come to life.

Transcript

0:15

All right. Welcome back everyone. Welcome back from the break. This is episode four of the Path Makers Podcast, and today I'm joined by Bruce Gray. Typically after introducing someone, I'd say like the title of, but I mean. It's, we don't have enough time to talk about everything you've did, you, you did in title, form. We're gonna go through it in the actual thing. Do you, in the UK was there those, um, those Dos Equis uh, commercials with that like, most interesting man in beer? Did that, was that ever a thing? I don't think so. The guy with the beard that, you know, don't think so. Like total classic old school, um, uh, beer advertising was probably from the 2000s, let's say. Anyway, I, I kind of classify you as that person because, you know, you've done literally everything in this, in this business I think. So I'm really excited to, to get into the chat. But for in, in the simplest, uh, introduction, uh, Bruce is now Co-Founder of, uh, Left-Handed Giant. Uh, alongside Rich and Jack. Um, and, uh, previous to that worked in whole or had a wholesaler and, and, um, and started the Brewdog bars. Uh, so we're gonna get into that. I think that's where we're gonna start If that's cool with you. We can do. Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. No problem. I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. Is that the, I dunno about that. Is that the I think it's, I think that's far from true and I think everyone's gonna figure that out by the end of this. Very modest man. Um, so BrewDog, uh, as I understand it, you started at BrewDog before the first bar was open. Is that right? Yes. Okay. And, um, and you were brought in as, as an Ops Director, Ops Manager? No, so I was brought in as the first manager of the very first bar up in Aberdeen, um, underneath, who was then the, uh, Ops Manager. Um, uh, uh, see, yeah, I was brought in as the, as the General Manager, but quickly developed. It was a, it was a funny situation actually, because I. I got brought in maybe eight weeks before the first bar opened. Um, and then Mick and I, um, may, uh, ran the fit out, the employment of the team. Um, and he was gonna be, the guy that was the, um, was the boss. He was the, he was the Ops Manager of the, Uh, BrewDog had, had, have a lot of ambition. The bar chain was always gonna be global. Um, so he was gonna be the boss of the, you know, the, the upcoming, um, global bar chain. Yeah. Um, so we opened the first bar, um, together, uh, and I was gonna be the GM there, but within the first week of operating the f of operating that bar up in Aberdeen, um, he took a phone call within the bar, looked quite stressed about it. Um, went out the front of the building. I could see him through the window having this, um, a obviously quite serious conversation. And he came back in and said to me, he, he was An Aussie, so he was like, I've gotta go back to Australia. Um, and I was like, when? And he was like, like, now. Um, so the following day, I, I drove him to the airport in his van. Uh, dropped him off and as I was dropping him off, he handed me his phone. This little blackberry, this is how long ago this was, handed me this Blackberry, uh, handed me the keys to the bar, left me in his van, said goodbye. Uh, and that was the, that was the la. I never, well, I, I actually did see, see him again because he founded, um, Pirate Life. Oh, okay. I've met him before. Have you? I, so I did, I met him again. He came to Bristol and came to Small Bar. It's lovely seeing him actually. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the, from a BrewDog Bars perspective, he left never to be seen again. Yeah. Um, and I drove back to the bar, uh, with all of his stuff, uh, and uh, essentially assumed, um, by, uh, inheritance the position that he had just vacated. Um, even to the extent that he had a flat directly above the bar that I then moved into the following week. Um, so I just became Mick. Um, I. Was there a job interview? That was it. No, there was no job interview. I just, I am, uh, I slid into this position of, uh, to be fair, I maintained my position of General Manager of the first bar. Yeah. Uh, but then as we began talking about the second bar and the third bar. Um, James Watt and I, um, formed a good relationship and, and he, you know, he, um, allowed me to step into position of Ops Manager. Very cool. And then Ops Director. Okay. Um, uh, I, and then ran the BrewDog bars for the first two years and the first 10 bars. Okay. Um, the length of the country. Okay. And so you mentioned it there, but the, the, the ambition from the start was a rollout. Yes. This is gonna be, yeah. Yeah. And do you know. Why, what was the strategy? Why, why, why was that something that, uh, that the team there felt was important for that brand or for the, the industry at that time? Uh, I mean, I think that the guys recognized that in order to have, uh, the kind of connection with their customer that they wanted to have, then bars were the only way, way in which they were going to achieve that. Okay. Coupled alongside their wholesale grocery growth. So, you know, with the, with the, the, the, the pushing volume they had in the brewery. Um, you know, there's a disconnect with the customer happen there. Yeah. And the, the, the manner the, the, the breadth, the width in which you send your beer is getting wider and wider and wider. And by extension, the distance from your customer is getting wider and wider, and wider. Yeah. And the only way of compensating for that and creating a direct connection with the customer was via bars. Um, uh, so I think genuinely. I think that the motivations were from a, were from a, firstly, from a connection with the customer perspective. And then secondly, a without doubt, a commercial perspective where. Uh, from a, again, same thing. The wider your wholesale routes to market get, the slower the cash flow becomes. There is a manner in which you can compensate for that by having your own bars. Mm-hmm. And having direct, someone spends a pound, um, uh, and then the following day, well, the, if it's cash, it's in your till, the following day with the card transaction it's in your bank account. Yeah. Um, so I think probably, you know, there's, there's a couple of things there, but I think genuinely. It would be a, a connection with the customer would be first and foremost there. And, and you, when you stepped in was like, was it res, your responsibility then to develop the concept of BrewDog bars, the rollout concept? Like trying to understand like how much of that was kind of already set versus what? No. Well, I mean, it's, uh, I think that there'll be, there'll be something that, that, we touch upon, I think throughout this conversation, um, which is that I think you're probably overestimating the level of thought and strategy. I often do that. It's my job, man, overestimating. Um, I, because it was such a fast moving thing and time that really it was just a case of saying, there's a premises. We had an architect... can't remember the names. I, they, anyway, the architect who designed the look of it. Okay. You know, so you walk in and there's the old school flooring and the wall and the, you know, concrete floor and whatnot. Um, so they, they designed the look of it. Um, uh, and then the company came in, execute that look. So they, you know, the, the look of it and actually the look of it, uh. Then is probably not massively dissimilar to walking into a BrewDog bar now. Um, but I would tell you that back then, like the actual, the concept, the way in which we presented beer, the way in which we, uh, connected with the customer, the way in which we, um, set the ambience in the bar was incredibly different to what it is now. Um. I, and that was probably to do with the fact that I, I followed, uh, the same strategy as I've followed ever since, which is to find good people, and then try and give'em a great deal of autonomy. Um, so those first 10 bars were all, you know, they all looked quite similar from an architectural perspective. Obviously each building had their own in individual unique little things about them. But largely speaking, um, I would find a great manager, um, put them in there and then give them, you know, quite a lot of freedom as to, um, how they executed the actual offering within the premises. And we were moving so quickly. I opened 10 bars over the course of just under two years. So, you know, I, the time that I could actually spend in that bar was limited. I'd be there through the fit out and then through the opening night and opening week, but I really had to step back and let them do their own thing and have a lot of trust that they would, um, do a good job, have a, give them a lot of, um, empowerment, autonomy, to make big decisions and push the thing forward. Yeah. Um, so those first 10 bars were, if you went to each one you would see individuality to every single one. Um, and one of the reasons that I left that job was because I recognized that in order for it to come to become the company that they wanted it to be, hundreds of bars, global. Um, there was no way you could continue that strategy and have consistency, and it had to turn into more of a cookie cutter type of mm-hmm. operation where you have brand parameters, you have, um, a real set rules and what people can and can't do and how the things should look. Um, so the, the concept in which it's developed into now, which you can walk into a bar in Bristol or Bath or Edinburgh or, um, somewhere else in the world and find a very, very, very similar concept. Yeah, it wasn't the one that I built. So speaking of, uh, over analyzing strategy, uh, in retrospect, um, one of the things that, that, uh, I, I mean. Obviously if you look at BrewDog bars today and you speak to a lot of people, they'll, yeah, it's a lot more negative perception than, than before. Right. But I mean, like, I personally can't, I feel like I can't overstate how instrumental that was in, uh, building craft beer. Yeah. Um. Because, I mean, for a lot of people, myself included, at least within the UK obviously in North America, it was different. But, you know, my first, like, let's say proper beer experiences in, in the UK was, came into London. I, a friend of mine took me to, to, to, to the BrewDog bar, and then obviously I got to learn other things. So, um. The other thing is I, I, I live in Italy now. Um, and uh, and if you look at a lot of markets like Italy, Spain, the problem they have, it's almost like if you revert, if you go back 20 years ago in the UK. There's, there's no route to market, right? Um, and part of the reason there's no, no route to market is because you have. Like wholesale's dominated by, by the big folks and we'll get onto wholesale next. But part of the reason too is, is you've got to create the demand, right? You've got, so if you create enough demand, then, then there's room for wholesalers. And if you create, and how do you do that? The best way you can do that is by connecting directly with your customers in your bar. And then there's the commercial aspect. And so I think, you know, a lot of what came within the UK, and obviously I wasn't here for a lot of this, but, but I look back on it and it's like. This was quite an instrumental part in bringing more people into craft beer and almost creating a, a, a, a momentum that was enough for wholesalers to, to have a business for, you know, bars to start stocking this on tap, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Um, so yeah. Anyway, I don't know, like, that's part of the reason why I ask. Um. About the, about the, you know, those first few bars and the, the strategy of staff, because you know, obviously at, at that point in time, you're almost like creating individual communities that are all about bringing people into this brand. Mm. Um, and into, into craft beer. So it's very interesting. I, I heard that, um, I heard you talk about that on a, either an article or previous podcast. And so I say all that, but I guess the real question to you is here is... Does that all make sense, do you kind, do you see it that way? Obviously it might not have been what was thought of at the time because you know, you're just doing things as you say. But is that reflective of what you think BrewDog bars have, have brought? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. The, the bars and the company now, um, is one thing. Um, but the foundation that the bars and the company laid. For the UK craft beer scene. I mean, that just, that can't be denied or underestimated. Okay. Um, maybe I'm biased there'cause I was, uh, clearly heavily involved in the foundation of, you know, the early part of the bars. Um, but I don't think I am, I think it's like you look at the, like 2015 if you looked around the scene, um, almost all of the prominent breweries that were starting up or operating at that time were either populated by ex BrewDog or BrewDog Bar staff, or influenced by BrewDog. Um, uh, so everything that was happening then was off the back of a wave that had been generated from their, um, ambition. Mm-hmm. Drive, um, enthusiasm, Um, and willingness to put themself out there. Okay. Um, and, and actually just to, just to, yeah. And I, and I should, it should never be, uh, I should never look past how influential those two years were in my career, in my life. And what a momentum that, uh, gave me to jump on and do what I went on to do next. Speaking of which, good segue. Nailed that one. Have we done this before? Um, so then you, you, you, you leave BrewDog and your next decision is, we're gonna start a wholesaler. Why? Yeah, good question. Um, uh, why on earth would you choose to do that? I don't mean it because the, I know you're framing it that way, but I actually, you know, I don't mean that because the, because the, the, I tell you, they, they, being a wholesaler, they get a lot of flack. Uh, but, but it is the hardest, uh, it's the hardest area to live in throughout the whole sector. Sure. In my opinion, having operated, I think in every single layer of the, of the, of the cake. Um, it is such a hard place to be. Um, but why did we, I'll tell you the, the opening bars the length of the country. Um, a one of my jobs was to ensure that we had, um, on the boards of a bar in Manchester, Manchester breweries. Yeah. And on the board, um, in the bar in London, London breweries, actually the, uh, first place I met Jasper was in the BrewDog bar in Camden. Oh, by the way, I spoke to him yesterday and he said to say hello. You said, um, uh, I, so you know, I went to the places now and I tried to go around and meet all the people who are making great beer, um, in the localities roundabout the bars. Yeah. Um. And it became apparent to me that there was this like bubbling under, um, a, a appearance of an amazing craft beer scene, but none of them had distribution wider than their local areas. They were all loading vans up, delivering beer, and fight to make sales. Uh, you couldn't find Camden Town in Scotland. So you could go to localities and you could find what I thought. One of the, just to jump backwards slightly, one of the real benefits of my time at BrewDog too was that they sent me to America, uh, two or three times, um, to go and see bars to taste beer, um, to really take in the scene across there. And I was able to be inspired by the various different mature beer scenes that I was experiencing across there. Yeah. And I could, when I was traveling the land to the UK opening different bars, looking for great breweries, whithin the localities of the bars that I was opening, um, it was obvious to me that there was the potential for as vibrant a scene in the UK as they had across there. Um, if the breweries were given A, a platform to showcase their beers, the ability to sell the beers into a wider market. Yeah. Um, and the ability to grow and develop. Um, so, uh, Craft Centric, which is the wholesale company that Chris Mair and I set up in mm-hmm Scotland, which became a New Wave. It is a, essentially a New Wave now. Um, came off the back of a Chris doing, He started a BrewDog, went to Black Isle, went to Williams Brothers, um, as a sales person. Um, I'd obviously worked The length of the country running craft beer bars. And the two of us sat and had a conversation about, um, Scotland craft beer in Scotland, specifically.'cause we were, you know, we were based in Edinburgh. Two of us we're good friends, are good friends. Um, uh, and um, uh, I think it was obvious to both of us there was an opportunity to help develop the craft beer scene in Scotland. Um, at the same time as give these wonderful breweries that both of us knew the length of the country, um, a wider route to market platform, an area that they did not have a platform already. Mm-hmm. And obviously, selfishly give us, uh, thing to quit our jobs for and set our own thing up. Yeah. Um, but I think the two things, so The Hanging Bat obviously was part of that, was part of that conversation and journey as well. Because I think with looking at that time and our decision making at that time, the bar attached to the wholesale company, I think has to be part of that conversation. Okay. Because we, we wanted a bar, wanted a great craft beer bar, and wanted somewhere that we could go to within our locality that was like laser focused on showcasing the best craft beer you could find within the UK. Yeah. And further afield to a degree. But, um, primarily it was about, you know, showcasing UK craft beer. So the, you know, the bar was like the, the front and center of it, and then the wholesale bitting behind it was like, um, the, the ability for us to bring that beer up to Scotland to have access to it, to showcase it in The Hanging Bat. Right. Um, and sell it into the wider market. So there was like a, you know, the, I think it was two things side by side. I think just a bar at that point wouldn't have hugely excited me and just a wholesale company at that point wouldn't have hugely excited me. But the, the combination of those two things I, I felt was quite, um, we felt, uh, was quite powerful. There's quite, there's gonna be a bit of a theme here with you and building like little business ecosystems. Yeah. Between different, yeah. That was the first, the first, uh, run at it. Um, so, okay. Let's say fast forward, a little bit of time. Craft Centric is running, Hanging Bat running. Like, do you feel like you were able, kind of that vision that you saw and the reason to start it, do you feel like you were able to deliver that? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Scotland, the, the buy into it was, um, was immediate, uh, and enthusiastic. Okay. From both the customers of The Hanging Bat and the, uh, bar, bottle shop customers buying into Craft Centric. So, I mean, immediately that grew to, you know, we were turning over, uh, we'd have been over 2 million pounds within the first year. You know, it was like from nothing to like a meaningfully sized company. Um, so it, it, it immediately proved that there was like the, the thought, the concept, um, a, a bared, um, exposure to reality. Um, a, a, with great success. Okay. And we could both look at it and be like that, like, that was a good idea. Um, it was executed well. Um, it's the right time, the right place, um, and people are buying into it. So. Wonderful. Really good. And then, and then I guess if you taking like 10 steps forward here and we look at, 'cause like you meant you start at the beginning, wholesale is tough. So there's a lot of talk about, you know, well, I mean, it's tough for everyone right now, but obviously wholesalers that do sit in that kind of small size of the pie. So how...this is loaded, this is a loaded one. You ready for this? Like how has it evolved? Like what, what, how do you, how, from that point you're talking about, like that's, you know, all this excitement, this has happening, like where, how have we gone from this to, to today? What does that, like, what's happened, what does it look like? Oh my days. Yeah, we can break that one down if you want. What you mean? From a, from a wholesale and bar perspective, you just mean customers from the wholesaler side of things? Yeah, from a, from a wholesaler side of things. Because we'll speak a little bit about bars in a bit. Yeah. I mean the competition has amongst wholesalers. Ah, yeah. Has, has developed a, uh, hugely. Okay. So going back like Craft Centric, there was no one else selling the beer that we were selling in Scotland. Um, then when I moved to the southwest And set up Big Beer distribution Yeah. In Bristol. No one else was selling the beer that we were selling in the Southwest. And even when I was, 'cause I traveled, uh, from there, wholesale wise, 2013, So 2012 would've been, um, Craft Centric. And then mid 2013, moved out to Bristol. It was the July the first, 2013 I first out stock list for Big Beer distribution in Bristol. Um, this is 12, 13 years ago. Um, uh, the, and my intention down here was to sell beer Bristol M4 corridor, uh, across the Cardiff. Um, they, and then hopefully develop down into South Coast. Okay. Um, so you've got that, you know, M4 being literally the, um, but even going across to London, there was very few people that were selling the kind of beer that we were selling. And even within London at that time, there was very few breweries. So it was like the competition was just so much less. Okay. Um, uh, and then by extension, the price you can charge, well, the, the margin you can, um, squeeze outta that is a little bit higher,'cause competition is less. And the enthusiasm for the product is extremely high 'cause it's new and exciting. Um, a, a not, um, huge amounts of it in the market. Um, a demand without doubt, outstripped supply, I would tell you right through until 2019, that was probably the case. It definitely was teetering before the pandemic. I think the pandemic was, um, was definitely part of the conversation of the last 10 years, but without doubt that supply demand conversation was starting to equalize before the pandemic. Okay. Um, so, um, but you know, the, the amount of wholesalers, people who have seen the, um, the opportunity. Older wholesalers who have jumped onto it with professionalism, have a logistics, they, that finances the ability to do it well. Mm-hmm. Uh, has increased. And there are small wholesalers who, um, uh, have seen the opportunity And excitement for craft beer, uh, there's just more of them. Okay. Um, and then, supply chain costs have gone up, but the customers expectation of price has not gone up in line with it. So the bit in the middle, the, you know, that that margin for the wholesalers was already small, gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Um, uh, so even more pressure in, uh, the smaller guys, um, uh, who don't have big brands to lean on, um, with big volume. Yeah. And big, uh, listing, uh, it's, it's a totally, totally, totally different place. Okay. From a wholesale perspective now than it was when, um, what I was doing it through those early years. Okay. Um, and then you, you started, well, Small Bar. Mm-hmm. Um, so I was gonna say Left-Handed Giant, Left-Hand, I mean, really, it, it starts with with Small Bar first, but when you, when you started Small Bar with, it was with Jack, right? What was it? To Jack to, to, uh, Jack was the general manager of Small Bar. Got it. Okay. Um, a on day one. Yeah. I was gonna, I was gonna ask when, when you, when you, when you started Small Bar, did you, did you kind of know that you were gonna become a brewery as well? Yeah. Um, I, certainly the first business plan I, for Small Bar was to have a 10 barrel brewery. Yeah. It was for, the first business plan was for a bar around the corner from Small Bar that had quite a big basement. Okay. Um, I'd been to the Cock Tavern, I. They've got a brewery and had maybe still do, don't know, had an incredibly small brewery in the basement, um, in London. Um, and um, when I was building the business plan for it, it included putting a 10 barrel brewery into this basement of the bar that we were supposed to go into. Um, uh, now that really was a, the concept was wholesale across M4 corridor, as I've already said. So wholesale across the areas we've already talked about. Have three bars, Small Bars, one in Cardiff, one in Bristol, one in London. Um, and then have a brewery that service those bars and a little bit feeding out through the wholesale company. Okay, So not, uh, full on commercial brewery. Um, certainly the, the, the, the foundation of the business would be from the bars. Yeah. Um, the wholesale company would be feeding those and then the brewery would be adding some, uh, excitement, interest. Um, real buy-in for the team so they've got their hands in something. Yeah. Um, but the brewery was never supposed to be the scale and size that it is that is developed into now, but Rich was the key ingredient there. Jack wanted to set a brewery up. Um. I had already set the wholesale company up and the bar up. So the route to market was like, was was there. Yeah. Um, but we didn't have the skills to make beer effectively or to a high enough level that I would be willing to put it on our stock list alongside all these other Yeah. world class breweries. Um, and the addition of Rich, that conversation could have changed the game. So once Rich was part of the conversation, it opened up the door for Left-Handed Giant, uh, and a commercial brewery to be a possibility. Um, it's interesting how all this stuff is so connected.'cause I mean, that's, you say that at the end there and it's, but it's such a critical point because, I mean, you're there every day with consumers slinging the best beers in the country. Yeah. And like. You know, if you're gonna go out and be a, become a brewery as well, you've, you know, you've, you, you, because of that ecosystem, like, you know, we've gotta be at this level. Yeah. You set a bar, you know, and same with the wholesale thing. It's like everything is so, so connected, which is super interesting and, and, um, and something you only really get when you have a business that has several different components to it. Right. Um, so, okay, so you're. You're, you've got the bar there, you're opening the brewery in, um, so you decided to do the brewery. At first you were doing like Cuckoo Brewing and then you went Yes. you did, you did the brewery. Um, at that point in time, so let's say after brewery, Small Bar, was it just Small Bar still at that point? Yes. Yeah. Like did you see yourself as a brewery, as a hospitality company or as something entirely uh, different. I think I saw ourselves as, I. Well, the only answer within what you've said there is entirely different. Okay. I think I saw it as, and this was part of the strat, so the, the, you know, this was part of the strategy was build something that had its hands on each part of the production, wholesale, um, a, uh, execution bar, um, handed across to the customer. And I, and I think, that it doesn't take a genius to recognize that the combination of those things has gotta be stronger than, um, any, any one of those on, its on its own. Um, uh, so I always wanted to build a small company. Build something that was, um, small, had strong foundations, um, had profitability, um, could focus on the environment that the people worked in and the environment we pride for our customers. So the quality of what we're doing rather than the growth of what we're doing. Yeah. Um, and I felt like the combination of those things provide us with the opportunity to be more in control of our destiny. To not be caught in a continual growth loop. Yeah. Um, uh, so yeah, it was like, uh, I, I think you know that Yeah. Something different. Okay. Like something that, that, that, that covered the top to bottom of it. There's still. There's still a lot of people in this industry, I speak to a lot of people that, you know, at the end of the day, you, I guess one of the differences for in your story is, okay, you, you, you, you at BrewDog then, you know, you do the, the, The Hanging Bat and wholesale with Chris Mair. Yeah. And you come down here and you've got, you've got Jack. Yeah. And you've got Rich. Like, in order to do that model, it almost seems like is if you are, if you are a brewery, and what I was saying at the, at the outset is like, there's a lot of people that I speak to that are, are the founder of a brewery, and they're like, I don't wanna do bars, because it's not, it's not their thing. Like, you're a bar person, right? Yeah. And Rich is a beer person and Jack's really good at a lot of things. Yeah. So, uh, so like, how, what would you say to that person today that's like, um, I, I don't wanna open bars because, yeah, I'm not comfortable. What, what, what, what, what is, there's a, there's a really good quote. A I think it's Richard Branson, um, a, which I have, I thought of continually, ever since I read it 20 years ago, which is, um, find great people, set them free. Okay. And I think that goes to the BrewDog bar story I was telling earlier about, you know, giving people autonomy and empowerment to make their own decisions. Yeah. Um, it speaks to what we did at, um, the way in which we managed Craft Centric and The Hanging Bat. It speaks to how I have managed what we're doing here over the last 12 years. It's find great people, setting them free, finding great people is easier said than done clearly. Um, but, um, if you can find great people, step back, give them the support, training, um, a platform to be the very best he can be. Give them some autonomy. um, empower them to make their own decisions. I think more often not, more often than not, people can and well be far, far, far, far greater than you had ever any expectation it could be. Um, so I think that answers your question. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah, I know. No, I think, I think it's, I mean it's, I think it's incredibly fair when someone goes, look, I don't wanna open a bar 'cause I'm not comfortable opening a bar. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. No. It just means you shouldn't do it. You Just make sure that you find a great person. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and, and be willing to take your hands off the wheel enough Yeah. To let them do what they're great at. Yeah. Yeah. Not put yourself in a position where you are arrogant and ego as a founder, um, gets in the way of it where you think that you know better than every single person in the room. Um, surround yourself by people that, that are better than you are. Um, it is quite easy for me to do that because most people are better than me. Yeah. Um, the, the, I guess the other thing just for, 'cause some people might not know as much about the story, but you know, you, you sell the majority of the beer, you make you sell to yourself right now? Well, yeah. I mean, that's developed over the last five years. That's changed. Um, we will be slightly under 50% going to our own venues now. Okay. Um, so we're, we're certainly bigger now than we ever intended to be. We're about seven and a half thousand hectoliters now. Okay. Um, in total volume across the brewpub brewery, and the main St. Philips brewery. Yeah. Um, yeah. And just under half of that goes to our own venues. Cool. And before the pandemic, that would've more like 65, 70% owned venues and then Okay. Um, but they, the, the grow with everything that we've grown by has gone out to wider markets. Brilliant. And speaking of venues, uh, the last kind of like major topic I wanted to talk about was, was this thing called the Left-Handed Giant Brew Pub. Mm. I mean, you have a lot of amazing venues, I've talked about Small Bar, Renato's next door. Let's go through them all. Renato's is next door. You've got, I mean, that, that's actually, so you've got Renato's and Small Bar on King Street. Yeah. Um, two very, very individual premises, side by side with each other. Um, one's like, uh, old Italian, they are literally for anyone that doesn't know, they're literally beside each other on the same street. Incredible. And they share a, they share a frontage, tables right in the front, it's wonderful. Um, so you've got Renato's, uh, pizzeria, uh, craft beer, cocktails, uh, late night at the weekends. Uh, you've got a Small Bar next door, um, very um, specific craft, beer focused venue. And then you've got LSG Brew Pub facing onto Castle Park. Yeah, A big old, um, brewery. It used to be Courage Brewery. Okay. Um, George's Brewery before that. Um, but it's like a 10,000 square foot, three floor, uh, open frontage looking onto the floating harbor. Just a huge, um, a beautiful big old building, it's own bridge run across, onto, yeah. And then we've got the taproom out in St. Philip's. Yeah, we've got a couple of coffee shops as well in New Cut Coffee and Commune Cafe. Um, and, um, that is it. Now we've actually a a just so we can be clear, you know, not everything always goes right. Um, we opened, three premises um, over the last year and a half over in Stocks Croft and they've been not successful. Uh, really difficult, challenging, uh, journey with, with that development. Um, and we've closed them now, so where we still have the premises, we're trying to lease them out. Um, we're not operating them. So the ones that we're operating currently are the ones that I've just said. Yeah. And one of the things there that you kind of loosely touched on, but you know, you, you actually own, all of them? most of them? own the sites. We own, we own, uh, the building at Small Bar own the building at the Brew Pub. Okay. Um, lease Renato's and then lease the, uh, the brewery. Okay. Um, but that's a really important, I think, um, part of the conversation and the journey. I think there's like a, as I've said, the, the ver, trying to use a less, a, a cliche term here, but vertical integration of the company. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the, the varying routes to market, um, between wholesale, owned venues, um, a we've tried to build a company that has, um, a breadth and stability. It's not utterly reliant upon, um, one route to market, one revenue stream, um, or one particular section of the industry. Yeah. Um, I think the strength of that was demonstrated through the pandemic when we lost our bars, but we could lean upon our, um, website, um, canned production, um, and maintain some cash flow, um, in order to keep things rolling. Um, but the other side of it is the purchase of our buildings. It's like, uh, I think, uh, uh, I said to you earlier on it's like trying to build a, um, like a pyramidal type shape of a business that's got a really strong foundation, um, multiple streams within it, creating the revenue and the profit required to make it successful. Um, but part of that really strong foundation is the, is the purchase of the buildings. Um, purchase of those two buildings is really valuable, um, premises in the center of the city. Yeah. Um, that, um, again, you know, an element of that's more luck than judgment as well. It's like, uh, this whole thing was started with no money. It's not like, like I didn't. I've not, none of us have come from cash. Um, and the day that I quit my job, um, a with BrewDog, I quit it with no nothing, no savings. Um, was, knew that we'd had to sell beer, um, bring some cash in, or I couldn't pay my rent. Mm-hmm. Um, and that carried on to down here. When my wife and I moved out to Bristol. It was the same thing. Like I knew that when I, um, uh, that when I committed to being here, um, we had sell beer. Make some money or not pay rent. Um, and that provides a great deal of motivation, um, and drive. Also stress, obviously. Um, but it also provides, um, a difficulty in the growth of the company and that there's nothing to lean upon to every time you're trying to take a step of growth, there's either borrowing, um, or selling shares in the company. Yeah. Um, a, a. So, we have done both those things. Borrowed, um, sold shares in the company. Um, but the, for the Brew Pub and for Small Bar, we were able to, um, take advantage of, um, a tricky situations, um, in order to get good prices. So time for other people were standing back, viewing it as too risky, too scary, and being bold enough to step into those difficult situations. Brew Pub, really good example. Uh, the bridge wasn't yet in, you couldn't access the building. Uh, it was all the building site down behind it. You had to really use your imagination as to what this thing could be in the future. Yeah. But I could see it, like, I could see what that could be. You, uh, uh, and we bought the building, um, through both a combination of investment and borrowing. Um, and then watched all of the, all the building behind it fall away. Um, the, the access point become available. The bridge get built in there, and all of a sudden you get left with a gem in the center of the city. Um, that has a value far, far, far higher than the money we paid for it and the debt we have against it. Yeah. So we've got a great deal of asset there on our balance sheet. Yeah. Um, that, um, that we wouldn't have had otherwise. And Small Bar is A similar circumstance where, uh, the landlord, um, was in a great deal of financial difficulty during the pandemic 'cause no one was paying their rent. So we had a, we had a circumstance. Um, and a very, very, very stressful time for the hospitality industry with no clear idea of what our future was. But we were contacted and asked if we would like to buy the building because they had to plug a cash flow gap. Um, because they were in a difficult circumstance the price for it was good, um, but we had to commit to buying it, commit to debt at a time where really, we would rather not have. But we were confident enough, stupid enough, bold enough, um, to make that decision. And as the pandemic has eased and the trade in King Street has came back, we've now got the premises on our balance sheet. Um, and um, again, the value of it far outweighed the um, the cost of it. Well, I mean, one thing you said, they're bold. Like I, I I had this written down something I want to talk about because, yeah, I mean, you, you guys have been bold and I think, you know, this is a industry, if you talk about modern beer, that, um, you know, it's a risk to start a business, right? Like, I mean, I don't know what, whatever statistic you wanna believe, but what, eight eight outta 10 businesses fail or something like that. Yeah. Right. So there's a big risk, but then it almost feels like once, once you kind of get that up and running, everyone, you know, you, you just, you, you, you lose that appetite for risk. And part of that, especially nowadays is that there isn't a lot of, you know, capital's not nearly as available as it used to be. Yeah. But like, why are you like, no, I'm just like, I, I just want, I wanna understand, you know, like, what, where does that mindset come from? Why do you believe in that idea of, no, no, no, we gotta do this, we gotta, you know, we gotta take these bets that you, I mean, you look back now and they're like, brilliant. Right. But you said there are, there are some that haven't gone the right way. Yes. These ones have very much gone the right way, right? Yes. Yes. So where does that, where does that come from? Why is, why is that, why is that important, do you think? The, the risk taking, um, you know, the willingness to continually push yourself out of our comfort zone, you know, get to a point of where we could be comfortable and then push a step further is without doubt me. I think Jack would, um, be the first to say that too. Um, uh, I think that's on me. Now, why that is a totally, you'd have to talk to my psychiatrist, I'd think, to figure that one out. Um, uh, but there needs to be, I think what I've recognized over the course of the last, you know, as Jack. As the people round about me, Jack particularly, have developed into, um, real business partners to me rather than, you know, back day one at Small Bar being an employee. Yeah. Um, and then a co-founder and then developing into, um, someone who is a, a, a real equal partner to me. And I've leaned on him, he's leaned on me, I hope. Um, but I go, I've realized over the years is that, that like the early days, it was super important that I was there, um, taking a big risk, um, pushing things constantly, in order to turn something that was nothing into something that existed. Um, and as the last years have went by, I think it's super because Jack's much more, um, less of a risk taker. Um, it's certainly when it comes to our business. Um, it's super important that someone there with, um, a, uh, what's the word for it? A calmer approach. Um, an opposite approach to it. Mm-hmm. And we can have those conversations and find some balance in between the two. Okay. Because now, you know, the, those early years it was like, um, I don't know if I'm answering this in a, in a very effective manner, but, um, I think for any founding company there has to be someone there who's willing to continually put themselves into position to extreme stress.'cause that's what it is. Um, uh, and if you don't want that, it's probably best to go and get a job for someone else. Um, that's not like a negative thing, that's just a realistic, like if you're gonna build a company. So if you're gonna do it from nothing, um, it, there's gonna be moments where you have to really close your eyes and take a leap of faith. Um, put yourself in a position which is uncomfortable and then figure out how to make it work. The amount of times that through the journey of that two and a half years of taking the Brew Pub on the amount of times that deal, that funding, the execution of the project could have fallen over. I can't count how many times that happened, but each time would put ourself into such a point of commitment. I was utterly committed, um, and by extension had to figure it out. Mm-hmm. And we ended up, that place is utterly transformational to our business, both from a revenue, um, a profit, um, a balance sheet. Value the building perspective. Yeah. But probably more importantly from a visual perspective. But it required A herculean effort to turn it into reality. Yeah, it wasn't easy. Um, uh, I, but we would never have, I think I would never have, um, taken that journey on had I known every step that I was going to jump through to get there. Um, but probably there's a, there's a bit of a lesson to be learned there in that, you know, you've gotta, you've got to, in order to create something, different. In order to create something that is out of the scope of what you're currently doing, you've got to dream big. So you've gotta have this big, we can do that, like we can take that on, but you've gotta just figure out what the first step is. So it's like dream big and a, like plan small. Does that make sense? I think so. Yeah. It's like a dream, but like there's the goal, like we're all the way over a million miles down the down the down this, down the, the route here. Yeah. That's the goal. But to get there, you've gotta take one step and then once you take one step, you figure I take the second step. Yeah. And then you do that enough times and you get a million miles down the, but if you look at it and you go, I want get all the way down there. Um, and you look at that gap between where you are and where you want to be Yes. it looks insurmountable. Sure. So you're gonna dream big and plan small. If you plan small enough times, you will get to where you're gonna get to. You say plan I I, I think the reason I, I wasn't a hundred percent sure where I understood it. I, first of all, I think that's a brilliant way to put it. I think like instead of plan small though, really it's, for me that's like, plan small makes it sound unambitious. I think it's like what you're saying really is, focus, focus. It's, it's about focus. So it's, it's plan small in the sense that don't do a million things. Yeah. Figure out the couple of things that are gonna make an impact. Go do it. Yeah. You got it. Once those things, you go do it, you go, yeah, okay. You got it. A hundred percent. Break it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then eventually, uh, brick by brick. I'm not sure I, any, you, I think I digressed completely there, but, well, I mean, it's, it was, it was, uh, there, that was a question. It was a very hard question and it also wasn't one where there's like a. You know, the only ans, the only right answer is the answer you give, quite frankly. Right? So, so, um, so it's, uh, it, in that case, yeah, let's say tick the box done. But I, but before we move off, um, the Brew Pub, I, I did want to like, I mean, uh, or sorry, sites in general, I mean, to be fair, I've been to all the sites many times. Um, but um, and they're all very, very good. I think like the Brew Pub is one because of, of several things. But I think, you know, anyone who hasn't been to the Brew Pub that works in beer or is interested in beer, I mean, book yourself a trip to go to it. And quite frankly, I, I genuinely mean that because this for me is a place of, um, in a time where, uh, where there's so much, you know, negativity or a little too much, uh, of a, of a negative narrative, narrative around beer. You walk in the place, I was there last night, by the way, um, and it's like for me with my strategic nerdy beer brain, I walk in there, I'm like, this is like a place of hope. Like, because, and the reason why, I don't mean that in a cheesy way. The reason why is because you go in there, and all the things that people are telling you are, are holding us back. Like for instance, you go in there and it's incredibly accessible, right? So it's geographically, it's in the middle of the city center, right? So you're not asking someone, and I know this, not everyone has this ability and a tap room in a, in a, in a, um, industrial area is, is is a step in the journey step that Yes. That you guys have done. Um, but you're, you, you're not, you're, you're asking to someone to go to a place that if they're not a beer drinker that isn't intimidating, it's city center. It's, it's not, it doesn't, from the outside, you know, it's a very inviting place. You walk in, it's got amazing beer, it's got a brew pub, it's got amazing beer, but it's about so much more than beer. There's an, there's an air in there, there's a, there's a, what do you say? Like a, it's, it's an experience. And not just that, but all this talk about, you know, beer and how much it costs. When I, when anyone pays for a beer in that brew pub, they're paying for an experience. Yes. You know, you can, people are willing to spend more d in that environment, and I just think it's, and I know anyone who hasn't heard this story, it's worth listening to the Thirst Time podcast. I think it was, uh, season two, episode two with, um, with, um, Stefan from, from Track.'cause it's a very good podcast to talk about the challenges in making it happen, which were many as, as I heard. Um, but I think, you know. That's such a perfect example of, okay, you gotta be bold, but, but the limitations that are some often pla, often placed on us. Aren't necessarily true. You know, like there's ways to get around that. And part of this is about finding ways and I think the reason why that place for me is a mecca that a lot of people should go to within this world is because it proves to me that, that that can be the case. I told you this story about one of the last time I came up here. I was on the train, there's like these two probably 70-year-old, uh, guys on there that who were, you know, clearly they were talking about hand hand pulls and were not into craft beer. And they were like, oh, look at this place Left-Handed Giant, let's go in. And like, and, you know, just all these people that wouldn't otherwise make be, be, um, be comfortable, Yeah. going into a, what would be a craft beer environment. Yeah. And that's an example of it. So congrats to, to you and the team. I, I really appreciate that. Yeah. Amazing spot. Um, so I, I, I typically do like opinions, but quite frankly, I knew we were gonna spend a lot more time going through your story because we almost had to do a little bit of like going through the story because it is about the story. So what we're gonna do is, is, is, um, is, is go on to directly to the rapid fire, uh, and have some fun. You ready for that? I think so. Okay. So question number one, name a brewery that excites you today. Can I, I'm gonna be... pretty boring here because I, 'cause there's a, and and I'll tell you why, because I, I'm gonna say Verdant. They're good friends of mine. Um, they're clearly people that I, everyone knows, I'm not se I'm not telling the secret here. I'll tell you why though. Because they've built a business that I hugely respect, uh, by buying a building, they built foundation. By creating hype, like, everyone cares about it. Like when you talk about craft beer, um, in the UK people talk about Verdant still. Yeah. By building a brewery with scale. Mm-hmm. And profitability. Um, uh, I, at the same time is keeping excitement and hype. Um, and then by introducing great Um, and, um, varied premises into their business with a tap room, the seafood bar, um, and the other premises they've gotten. Every one of 'em is different between the pub. Um, a like they, they, they've done something I think that, uh, everyone should aspire to. Um, uh, by building a business with a great foundation, um, and a great breadth of, um, diversity through the way in which they approach their customer. Um, and I think it's easy to, when you ask questions like that, look at new people, um, look at the next hype thing. Yeah. Um, and I think, um, maybe I'm telling my age here and the length of time I've been in the industry, but I think it's important to recognize the people that have actually done something super impressive and built something that, um, has long term Yeah. sustainability, um, a, a and foundation to what they're doing. Well, I think anyone can look at this. Read the, or sorry, listen to this or, or watch this podcast, And understand, you know, you're, you've got a very strategic mind on business and, uh, and so yeah, I think it's a, a perfect example, um, of something that, again, at a time where there's a lot of, you know, uh, people that are not doing well in the industry across wholesale, breweries as well. Yeah. But the importance of stability, building this business, this foundation that you talked about. Yes. Um, so yeah. Great example. Plus beers are killer, right? Absolutely. And great people. Uh, name a brand outside of beer that has inspired you? Oh, that's a good question. Um, I, uh, now I'll say, I'll say two here if that's okay, of course, because I'll say one quite funny, one in the first place. Does, uh, you know, Timpson's? The key Yes. Cutters, key repair place? Yes, yes. It's so funny. I read an article with them a long time ago, and I've tracked 'em ever since. Uh, those guys have a absolute focus on their staff. Um, they, their, their staff care, um, is absolutely top-notch. There's like one in 10 of their staff have came through the prison um, system. Okay. Um, so they work there to bring people outta prison, put 'em into work, stop them re-offending. Um, they, um, they have great, um, pay, um. The private medical cover, um, they buy holiday properties, give them to the staff for free to use. Um, they have a real attention to detail when looking after their people. They've got what they call upside down management, uh, which really resonates. I remember reading it. Um, it really resonates with what I've tried to do throughout my career with treating our people. Uh, so they call it upside down management, and the way they refer to that is that, their upper management is there to support, to enable their, their frontline team to be the best they can be. Okay. Not to tell 'em what to do, um, not to manage them, not to tell 'em off, to support them, empower them to be the best that they can be. Very cool. And I think that's really a lovely way of framing it. Um. Uh, so I've always thought of Timpson's, it's a funny one'cause I think people see those stores and don't think much. It's just a key cutting in service. But I think there's some depth to their ethics and the way they treat people that's important. Okay. Uh, then the second one is like, it's probably a little bit of a cliched one. Much like Verdant actually, but Patagonia.'cause I think there's probably a lot of people that would talk about Patagonia. I. Because they're so clearly the forefront of the B Corp, uh, movement. They're the first B Corp. Um, uh, and the leaders of that whole thing. Um, but Yvon Chouinard is, he's the founder of, I dunno if you know the story of practically Yeah. Canadian guy. Yvon is my hero. Okay. From every, I read the book. I've read his book as well. Yeah. So, so, so I read his book, uh, like years and years and years ago, and I've referred back to it a number of times. So, Let My People Go Surfing. Um, uh. A great book, um, ethics, approach to business. His desire, I think, successfully to navigate a corporate life without being polluted by a corporate life. Yeah. Um, to keep his soul, um, uh, his zest for life, his joy, his ethics about, um, empowering people actually. Um, uh, his, you know, his, the title of his book, Let My People Go Surfing, I think is quite, yeah. You know, that tells the story itself. Um, uh. Uh, letting people, giving people autonomy, let make, letting them make their own decisions, um, uh, um, uh, supporting people to be the very, very, very best that they can be, um, uh, and treat them like adults. Um, uh, Yvon is my hero. From another perspective, um, uh, he's a mountain man. He, um, has really, uh, executed within his life. Absolute high level athletic performance and kept himself fit right through into his, um, later years. I mean, he's coupled that like building a global, um, billion dollar corporation, um, alongside being a great person, um, and focusing the profits from that global corporation into, um, doing good, not into necessarily just enriching himself. Yeah, I think that's really important. Um, so yeah, Patagonia. Cool. Yeah. Last one, one sentence you'd say to inspire others looking to create their own path. You know, I think that I've already said it. I think, through different things we've talked about through like dreaming big, planning small. It's like, uh, who knows what people's aspirations are, you know, what plans they want to execute. Um, but I would say I can only say from my own experience And my own career that don't let, um, the lack of, um, a ability to do something, um, the lack of funds to be able to do it, stop you, setting off in the journey to try and achieve it. Make it happen. Yeah. Like you dream big and then commit yourself and then figure it out. Okay. Like that first step is the, is the most important step of the whole thing. Like if you commit yourself, you put yourself in a position where the only option is success, then surround yourself by great people, um, and, figure out. Brilliant. Thank you very much. My pleasure. No, thank you so much. I'm so, uh, flattered. I am a and um, proud to be invited to come onto this, uh, alongside the, a quality of people that you've lined up. Um, I, so, yeah, thank you for inviting me. Well, I, yeah, I was gonna maybe, good to end with a little story.'cause I, I, when I, when I called you to, to, to ask you, um, I think the, the thing you said to me was. Like the first, you, you said to me, you know, thank you. Or, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I'm honored. I think I remember it, you said I'm honored. And I, I, I like stopped. I I did almost like pause for a second.'cause you, you, I'm like, I'm the one that's honored that you would come on. I don't get it. Like, but you, what you said is like, you know, to be, to be considered like in that. But I mean, anyone who, who listens to this, I think like. You've got, you've had this path, this journey that you've gone on and you know, you and bringing every, a lot of people along with you, um, you know, looking after people and, and you've made it a success. Um, and you also, if anyone's tracked this story. You have made, uh, played a pivotal role in making craft beer a success. Like literally from, I mean, I said it at the beginning about, you know, despite my view would be on BrewDog bars today, I don't think the craft beer industry would look like it does without, without that. I don't think the craft beer industry would look like it does without wholesale and especially, you know, at the Scotland at that time, there was nothing, nothing like that. Um. And, and yeah. And I, and I, and I think that alongside Small Bar, Left-Handed Giant, uh, making incredible beers. And now, now with the, with the Left-Handed Giant Brew Pub too, like I think you've got a business that is actually a model for what, what beer can be. And that's why it was really important for me that I could get you on here. And the fact that you said that to me, I was like, oh man, I'm honored... so thank you very much and uh, and I appreciate it. And uh, yeah, I look forward to many more chats, uh, down the road. Absolutely. Thanks. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks everyone for, for joining. Uh, I hope you've enjoyed this one. And, um, so the next episode will be episode number five. That's gonna be with Luke Boase from, uh, Lucky Saint. So stay tuned for that. And thank you for watching and listening, and see you soon.