EP 05 // Luke Boase // Lucky Saint

Would it be possible to create a beer & brand that would make people feel positive about drinking non-alcoholic beer?

 That’s the question Luke Boase asked himself. 

 I’d say they’ve nailed it. 

Bold, pioneering, focused. Lucky Saint is a Founder-led, independent drinks brand that has been built very differently than the ‘norm’ of our industry. And maybe it’s not a coincidence, it’s one of the most iconic drinks brands out there today.

And a special thanks to the team Sellar.io for making PATH Makers come to life.

Transcript

0:15

All right. Welcome everyone to episode five of the Path Makers Podcast. Today I'm very pleased to be joined by none other than Luke Boase, the Founder of Lucky Saint. Thanks for coming. And, uh, and I'll thank, uh, Luke because, uh, I've filmed four other podcasts so far, and you're the first person that brought beer. So, so thank you. On a beer podcast. No, I, uh, we've, we we're drinking some, uh, some of the new Weiss beer that was launched when exactly? So it launched in, uh, beginning of, very beginning of October. Brilliant. Um, so yeah, it's been a, a fun, um, I love, I I just love this beer. It, it has a bit of a special place because it was, Weiss beer is sort of intrinsically linked to one of the very early decisions on Lucky Saint Lager, which was to have an unfiltered lager versus filtered. And the inspiration from that came from trying all the non-alc Weiss beers from Germany and just finding these amazing, uh, cloudy, hazy beers that have like huge amounts of body and character to them. Yeah. And, and that was, that was in the development of the lager, that was the big challenge is like, how do we get, how do we get more into this? Okay. Um, so it feels, you know, seven, seven years on it feels, uh, feels nice full circle moment. It feels nice to be going back and yeah, it's just, it's a style of beer that works so well in, in non-alc. It's very good. Yeah. So, uh, and, and we were chatting a little bit before this, but I did spend a bit of time working in Germany, um, and had a very similar experience with non-alcoholic beer where you had some pretty. Pretty, uh, subpar options in a lot of countries, and then you go to Germany and they seem to have figured out a few things at least. So, uh, so yeah, I didn't know that that was part of the inspiration, but pretty cool. Yeah, certainly that was also like, I mean, just going back to kind of how I ended up in, in Germany was, I guess there were two things that they're really good at there. I think for me anyway, like the home of lager Brewing and then as you say, they've been brewing and consuming non-alcoholic beer for, for decades. And so there's way more expertise over there. So you put those two things together and, um, you know, having tried in, in the UK and having tried in Belgium actually, uh, there's probably a reason that, uh, I ended up with like making the real progress in Germany. Okay. There is a really cool story around, you know, 'cause Lucky Saint was actually founded, I think officially in 2018. Yeah. But for you it was probably 2015. Is that fair? Um, I think my, my brain started clicking into gear in 2015. Okay. And then, like in earnest 2016 started, uh, trying to build relationships in beer and in drinks and, you know, figure out what's in beer, how do you brew it, how do you brew non-alcoholic beer? All like, all of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. There's a really, there's a, there's a quite a cool narrative on the journey you went on to, to, to start from idea to making a product that you thought could actually solve the problem or the opportunity you saw. We'll come onto that, but speaking of beer and what you're drinking and stuff like. Um, I know we caught up, uh, at the, at The Lucky Saint, uh, I guess a few months ago now, but, um, you were, uh, or maybe still are, but you were like a good beer fan, right? Like you drank what, what, what kind of stuff? What was your like, beer lifestyle like in 2015, in that time period? It's probably worth, it's probably worth going back even a few years 'cause I think in the mid noughties and well latter part of the noughties. I fell out of love with beer. Okay. And I stopped drinking it for, for the most part, and I didn't, I didn't know why at the time. I can now see. Then along came, you know, I guess in the early, early teens and craft beer came around and suddenly there was, it was like, it then became clear why I'd stopped drinking beer is because there was, there was just a lack of anything interesting. Okay. You know, I'd, I'd, I'd grown out of, um, yeah, I said some, some of the macro brands that existed. Right. I think I know a few of them. Yeah. Um, and, and craft beer was just a, was just a, a route straight back into beer. And I did the classic thing of like going on wild journeys of discovery and spending my time in Clapton Craft and, um, feeling the need to, to have tried everything. So it was like, um. Uh, and then you, you, you kind of end up doing this full journey, which is go, you go on an entire journey of discovery around a category and all the wonderful different beer styles. And then you tend to sort of end up back on a small handful of things that, um, are generally not the weirdest or the wildest or the, but they are probably more classic styles done, like, like executed really, really well. Okay. What is, If you can explain a little bit like your journey where you came into beer, it probably worth going, maybe going back a little bit. So I was, um, I got obsessed first about starting my own business. right. And I was in a, I was in a job where I, I just didn't feel like I had any control over my own destiny and, I got quite frustrated by that. Okay. Um, and then I met two founders of a technology business and, uh, sat in a meeting with them and they were literally overflowing with excitement about the business that they were gonna build, how it was gonna change the world. And their level of excitement and passion and belief was just, it was really infectious. And I thought I wanna be sitting on that side of the table with them. I like, I want that feeling. Okay. And. And so for, so for me, my, it was, it was first about starting my own, my own thing and starting my own business. Okay. And a few ideas came and went, but, but the one I could never shake off, and actually the real reason I couldn't shake it off was not because there was a, a, like a great sort of strategic opportunity, or, it was more of an emotional thing, which is here's this like wonderful proposition, alcohol free beer. That, A, I'm not drinking. And B, other people feel like they need to apologize for drinking. And I wonder it would be, if it would be possible to brew an amazing beer that will bring people into the category, but also would it be possible to build a brand that would make people feel positive about that choice? And. You know, take it from this sort of a category with loads of negative con connotations and turn it into something positive. And so that was the, that was the sort of emotional kind of bit that got hold of me. And what, what, um, it's, it's interesting 'cause that is, if you, I mean if you look at today, this, we're talking like 2015, 2016, but if you look at today, that's something that you start, see, you started to see across a lot of, maybe, tired categories, right? Like, you know, you could have done that with canned water. You could have done, or water, you could have done it with toothpaste, you could have done it. But beer is the best category in the world, right? Look at all. Look at the advertising. So beer fan, this is the other thing, meets beer opportunity. It was like, it was like that, right? But why, why, why, why didn't you start a craft brewery, for instance? Everyone was starting craft breweries. Okay. There's, there's a, like a very good story around the developments of the product that I had never heard. Right? Because you essentially go, here's this challenge I want to take on. Um. But there isn't really a solution to that challenge. Like there's no, there's no like product where you're like, this, okay, well I just have to make this and, and, you know, then we're good. Like you were, you didn't know if it was possible or viable, like you had to go figure out whether, the brand is one thing, but like, can I make a product that is going to make people interested in this category? Can you tell a little bit about that, that, that journey. As I sat in 2016 and, and looked at what was going on there was, there wasn't a beer that was good enough to bring me into the category. And, and then there wasn't a brand that made me or anyone feel positive about the choice to drink it. Part two on the brand is a moot point unless you've got an amazing quality product. So that, so that was job one. And I, um, I spent two years working my way around different breweries. Uh, six in total, started in the uk, went to Belgium, ended up in Germany, and lots of failure in there. And a but a, a boatload of learning. Yeah, I still remember, I remember, I, I managed to sort of research my way to what I thought was, uh, an, an interest, really interesting brewery for me to approach, and. But I've approached by this stage, I've approached so many, how many are we talking here? Like, who knows? But you know, you just, you're sending cold emails to, you know, info @, or equivalent local language email, like, you know, and, um, uh. And it's pain, you know, it's painful. Like, no, no one ever responds, no one's interested and kind of, I I, I know why. Yeah, I know. You, you know, they probably get loads of requests and they're all dead ends. Yeah. But I managed, I got the, I managed to get the CEO's email of, of this brewery and I, I cr, I did, I crafted quite a good email. It was kind of, it wasn't too long, but it just had, it just had enough. And, um. And then I said, oh, by the way, I'm in, I'm in Germany on Friday, so, um, can I pop by? And, and amazingly he, he came back in literally, within like two minutes I got an email back. Gave me a bit of a fright because he was like, yeah, sure. Come by at one. I was like, shit, I've gotta get out there. Um, and that's the one that worked, or, so that's the one that, when that was the beginning, you know, and we still brew there today. Oh, amazing. Okay. Um, and I actually, I only found out, uh, a couple of years ago, I went over and, uh, sort of job one was to convince the CEO. And, uh. Uh, kind of after a while I did, I guess I, I told the story and enough different angles on the story of why this was interesting and, you know, things like penetration of the category is really low in the UK but it was much higher in Germany and other parts of Europe. So, you know, the big category opportunity in the UK and Beck's Blue and uh, Bavaria were basically the only two, meaning they, they were the only two beers with meaningful shares. They basically kind of split the category between themselves in this country. Yeah. And. So that was, you know, that's probably what Tonic water looked like in 2005, um, when Fever Tree launched. So I was, you know, I did, I did a bit of that stuff and, and, and eventually he, he sort of, he, he, he was like, okay, okay, yeah, let, let's, let's go and meet the brewmaster. So he sort of walks across the, across the yard, um, and met the brewmaster and we talked about what, what this beer should. You know, what was this in, how this beer should be and like, and how, you know, what steps in development and how, how they could, how they could try and help. And um, and then I got back in my hire car in a little sort of vauxhaul corsa and um, and I'm now thinking, you know, I've been here for like two hours. You know, I think this has gone, This, this, this has gone really well and I'm, I'm there like waving out the window and there's, the three of them are like lined up there and then all, they're all like waving back to me. And I only found out two years ago that basically behind his hand, the brewmaster was saying to the CEO is like, total waste of time, not doing that. Really, and the CEO was like, ah, I don't know. I think, you know, let's, maybe we should just give this a bit of oxygen. That's, uh, and so anyway, so that's a source of like, there's a source of ribbing between the two of them. That's, you painted a very good picture. I like, I can totally picture that, that scene, but I always think that the, these are. Uh, maybe this is just what life is like, but you know, the, the, these are the, like the, the margins are so narrow on this stuff, right? It's the sort of, uh, you know, if that Yeah, if, you know, if that had been actually, uh, maybe a right or, you know, if the brewmaster was like. Actually just like, no, not, yeah, we're not, or one person didn't sleep as much and was in a bad mood, or, you know, and, you know, and it like, that's, that's life, isn't it? You can't, you can't, you can't spend too much time. That's pretty wild. But, um, but I think, you know what, what, what is, what is really, um, Uh, the case is, is you spent, you know, the better part of two, two and a half years trying to find that solution to what you said, where, you know, there was the two problems that the brand and, and the product, but you needed the product. And like, you know, that's, that's a bold move, right? Like, you know, you, you, you, you could have, you said, okay, I asked the question, why didn't you start a craft brewery? I'm not saying you would've, but like. But that was an option. You could have done that, um, if that was of interest to you. Um, but you chose a path, Um, that ultimately there wasn't a solution for, and might take two and a half years, not before you have any success, but literally before you have a product because you have to find that solution. Um, I find that super, uh, interesting, although for you it probably just feels part of the journey, but, um, um, and there's a great like, you know, quality narrative there as well and like the whole story, like the reason why to go to Germany, which makes a lot of sense, um, when you put it that way because Germany at the time was, uh, I don't how much was the percentage of beer was non-alc? What was So, uh, back then it was 6%. Okay. And the UK was at less than half a percent. Okay. Okay. Um, so yeah, big, big difference. Big difference. Um, so then, yeah, okay, you're ready to start this thing called Lucky Saint, which, um, but, but you didn't just start it. You went, you went pretty bold and there was, there was, um. I can't remember if I read this or, or whether I heard it in something, but, um, but there was a quote where you said something along the lines of, you know, you wanted to, you had, your belief was that you wanted to do something and you wanted it to be, you wanted to find out whether it was gonna be a success or a failure fast. So you didn't want to have to wait 10, 15 years for that to be the case. You wanted it to be like, let's go do this. Is this gonna work? Or not? Especially because you were, you were going after something that was, you know. New. Right. Um, so, uh, so you went like fairly bold out of the gates, and what I mean by that is, is by, um, two things that I've seen. So one is advisors and, and investors. And in some cases those two are, are intertwined. But you had some real, really good advisors right from the very start that you surrounded yourself with and you went bolder with investments, um, to, to kind of go in and make this happen. What, can you explain a little bit about what that looked like? I got obsessed by start, if you sort of go back, I got obsessed by startups and, and building a business and at my, you know, I was in my mid thirties and if I'm gonna commit my time, you know, I just, I, I didn't, I, I, one of my, I guess one of my fears was committing a, a, a big chunk of, of time to, and, and, and, and getting, I dunno, 10 years down the line. And, and not knowing if, if it's ever, if you're ever gonna get there. And I'm, um, and knowing if the, you know, the proposition's gonna be successful or the, the brand can make it, all those sorts of things. And. It's not, uh, it's, it's not necessarily, it's not like a a, a monetary thing. But I want to, I want to, I, I, I want to know that I can kind of achieve the, the vision for the, for the business. And one of the ways is, you know, one of the accelerants is, is funding. Yeah. Um, because you can test and learn much quicker when you've got more money. So you can parallel path things. So, in year one, we ran an outsourced sales model and we built a team internally and we ran them in parallel and ultimately we brought it all in house because that was a much more effective way of, you know, we were, we, we were winning much more, more and better quality distribution that way. Okay. Um, and, it came. I suppose that lots of it was around, was around team, those early, it's all about distribution in the, in, uh, particularly in the early stages. It's like, you know, can you win in, in good accounts? And, um, on trade in particular is really intensive around people and mm-hmm. relationships. so. That was one of the things. But yeah, there was a, there was just a driver there, which said, look, I, I'm, I'm, I'm happy. I'm not happy, but I'm comfortable if this doesn't work. But I'd, I'd rather find out in three years, not 10 years. Okay. That's probably the, that's, that's probably the best way of like, framing it. Of framing it. Okay. And so what, so what did that look like? So what if you're, you know, if you, if you say that now and you think back to the start of that journey, what. What are the things, you mentioned a few there, like there was some investment there. Was this, this testing specifically on the on trade stuff? Like what other elements or are there other elements that you, that kind of fit that decision? Um, so we raised some money just before we launched. Um, actually going back one, it was from a, from a branding perspective, um. We actually rebranded before we even launched. Right. Okay. Um, so yeah, there was a, there was a previous iteration, not called Lucky Saint, uh, it was called a, not another, what was it called? Not another beer co. Not another beer co. Yeah. Uh, which, um, I guess became clear we could improve on that. Yeah, the story,'cause I. I mean that's a need. In the CMO, uh, Uncensored CMO podcast, it goes into it, obviously marketing podcast. So you get, get into brand quite a lot. Um, but it is, uh, you received a piece of advice or feedback, um, from someone. The way you, you know what, I can't remember what the phrase was. Like, don't talk about what you're not or what was it? Yeah, because we do, because it was called uh, not another beer co. And the best way of describing it is the, the opening slide on the, um, in, in our, the, the sort of in brand introduction was in font size 72, massive basically. Uh, it just said not Beck's Blue, not a range extension, not apologizing, not just another beer. Okay. So it was, it was, I mean, it was quite challenger brand. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was slam your fist on the table and, you know, um, and quite a kind of powerful and noisy way to launch a brand. But got some amazing advice from Ben Bilboul, who now sits on our board and has been, uh, really instrumental in, from a brand perspective on lots, in lots of ways. Um, I'd sent the deck to him and he'd picked up the phone and his opening question was how far down the naming and branding route are you? I like, eh, spent, spent six months on it, ready to hit print. Uh, and, and he said, look, well, you've, you've built something that's sort of very powerful, but you've built it in opposition to a category and, and it's a really, it can be a really powerful way to sort of like land message, you know? And, because it's quite classic challenge, a brand style, he said, and the bit that really got me is he said the ch, the challenge you might come up against in the medium term is that you run out of ways, um, ways to, to, to tell people how you are different because you are defining yourself in opposition to a category because your name starts with not. Yeah. And he said, look, there's no one in, this is a brand new category. There's no one in it. Why don't you go after the propositional side rather than the oppositional side? Yeah. And then you can celebrate everything that you are. And for a long time. For a long time. And it's just your creative runway is just, is much longer. Because it's a little bit like the BrewDog problem, isn't it? Right. I mean, BrewDog became. I mean, this is not necessarily true, but if you look specifically at percentages, became the category of craft beer.'cause there's over 50% of the off trade craft beer was, was BrewDog. When, when are you not punk anymore? Right. Is that, is that kind of a similar thing or? Yeah. I mean, I always, I mean, one thing I do, I always, I look at craft beer and uh, and it's, it's been built as a category to, uh, actually to a large extent, it's been built really firmly in opposition to mainstream beer and it's like head to head. And I never, I never, I didn't want to build a brand or, or a category in, in, in opposition to something. Okay. Um, I'd much rather, I'd much rather sort of to be, I'd much rather work collaboratively, uh, within an, an industry in a category rather than kind of in opposition to it. Right. Less confrontational. Yeah. Yeah. Hence Lucky Saint. Um, and so hence Lucky Saint. Okay. Um, and how do we get onto that? Oh, I suppose the in, but actually going for it in terms of brand creation and never having a, a a, a sort of thought that, oh, well, it just needs to be good enough for now. So we all, we set out, you know, with a, with an objective, which was this needs to stand up. This doesn't just need to be the, you know, the best alcohol free beer brand. This just, this needs to be a top level drinks brand regardless of category. And the execution of it needs to be at that level from, from the get go. So like brand was one thing. We raised a bit bit of money before we launched. Uh, I had a plan. Everyone needs a plan, right? Yeah. Uh, the plan, the money was gonna last us for two years, okay? And we were gonna slowly build to a team of three, okay? Over a two year period. Um. So in month two, we were already three people. Uh, and, uh, and just because it, you know, I hired someone just before we launched and we had 33 listings on our first day. Um. when we launched on the 1st of October. In our first month, we won 80 new listings. In our second month month we won 19 new listings. In our third month, we won a hundred new listings. It was just like, well just keep going, just keep, like, keep going and well, let's do more of what we're doing. And so, and that's the story for seven years, isn't it? Um, so plan, like plan in the bend. Yeah. Yeah. Gonna need some more money. Yeah. Yeah. And we should, um, and we should, we should hire more people, right. Um, so it, yeah, it started, it, it, it started from that point. So it was all, and I was. I mean, it's so, like, it's so fun at that stage just because the, the immediacy of things that you do is like, it's just instantaneous and it's, it's like instant gratification on things.'cause when you go from one listing to two, two listings, you've just doubled the size of your business. It's like Yeah. And your goal is like, if we can just get to 10 and then you have to 10. Yeah. And then we've 10 xd you do a hundred and you've 10 XD again. Like, do you know what that, that it's just, um. And the more effort you put in at that stage, it's, it's, it's just, I had this, I distinctly remember sitting there going, God, the more emails I send today, the more responses I'll get tomorrow, and the more listings we'll get the day after that. If I wait till tomorrow, then they won't come till, the responses won't come to the, you know, a day later. So it was just, that's the immediacy of. Um, of like crazy those early, those early stages, which is so fun. That's interesting.'cause you, you, like there was this boldness from the start. Um, and there was, uh, because yeah, I don't, I don't think that's, that's, um, that's something you, you, you see very often. However, what it kind of sounds like is because the success started quite quickly what might have seemed bold before starting, and a plan that seemed right before starting, probably within a couple of months, maybe, didn't seem all that bold anymore because the success almost became bolder than the, than the plan, is that? Yeah, maybe it didn't, it didn't. I, it, these, the decisions at that stage, they didn't feel, um, they didn't feel that bold in a sense. I mean, they, you know, you look back and they, they, they sort of were quite bold, but it felt like all of the, the indicators were all there that said yes. There's, I mean, like in like tech speak, it's like, like product market fit thing. Yeah, yeah. You know, when you go out into a customer, like do and not all, and actually not all of them said, oh yeah, there's a problem, and you know, this solves it for us. Lots, lots of people aren't identifying that they need an alcohol, free beer on their menu, but those that do would be like, yes. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a, a solution for this problem? And then you show them the beer and the brand. And they're like, yes, this is a, you know, this is exactly what we need. So that, that gives you the confidence to make, to make those decisions. One of the things that, you know, bold or unique or what, whatever the right term is. But, uh, one of the things that is definitely the case is, um, is that, from the outset, you had one brand, right? You, you, you built a business, you and team obviously, built a business that had one brand and had one brand for probably the first five years, right? Um, that's, uh, that's a very difficult thing to do. Um, and there's not a very, very many example. I was trying to think about it on the way in today, and just thinking like, what are other examples of, especially over the last, you know, 10 years or so and there's not that many, um., Red Bull Yeah, that's probably even a bit bit before that. Yeah. It, it has. Yeah. I mean it's obviously, it's diversified a bit, but I think that's a like Yeah, and like I was just wondering where does that, where did that, was that decision, like, was that firm from the start? Like, we're gonna do this and it's gonna be a one, one brand thing and Yeah. Do one thing well. Okay, well no, focus, I mean, focus is pro, uh, I believe the most underrated asset every, any individual has in life. Right? And the cheapest as well. Um, but it's hard, right? Like, you know, building something like that is very hard. Building a hero brand, not even just, it could be one brand business or it could be a hero brand within a, within a set of brands, is very hard. It, focus, um, becomes a harder thing, especially as you grow and as you grow. And there's a lot of pressures against it too, right? Like the sales team might say, if we just had something else, we could get this much more revenue. Right? Or it could be customers saying, you know, like a bunch of people come in asking for a weiss beer for instance. Can you do, you know, like there's a lot of pressures against that. How, how did you stick to it for so long just by saying on repeat, 80% of the world's beer consumption is lager. Okay? If there's gonna be a defining brand in this category, it's gonna be with a lager. Anything, and, and there, there is a, there is a, there's a but coming.'cause obviously we have, we've done innovation. But this was, this was the mantra that we absolutely lived by and, and the mantra still totally believe in. But, uh, as you, I think as you get, as you get bigger, it becomes easy to let 'em go. But, um. um, the defining brand has to be a lager and anything, anything that we do risks diluting that. So we want consumers to be, recognize us and we want to be famous for producing the best alcohol free lager, and that will help us achieve being the defining brand. Yeah, we've, after five years, we've probably, we, we got to a point where. We thought A, we can now, the core brand is big enough that we can do something else without it being dilutive and actually it can be additive. And then it, and then what innovation has done for us really well is just given us more visibility. So if we think about in fridges, in bars, on supermarket shelves. Um, you know, we can do, we can double the amount of space that we have when we go from one product to two products. Yeah. So that's the, so it be, it, it's become a really powerful thing. And then, uh, and actually there's lo, there's loads of incrementality when you, uh, because not everyone drinks a lager. Some people prefer IPA. some people prefer lemon. Some people prefer a weiss beer. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, um, so yeah, we. I did in, in the latter part of, as we, as we, where obviously I, I, I knew what was coming, so I began to sort of, you know, do one thing well, but never say never. Then I'm gonna continue with, uh, uh, this idea of boldness or, or, uh, or doing things differently. Um, and that's the on trade, which you touched on earlier, but, um. It was impossible to find a non-alcoholic beer on a tap, for instance. Right. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm confident in saying that I've been to a lot of bars, uh, in, in, in my work and uh, um, and I do remember, I think it was one of the fir, it was right when, 'cause it When did you launch it on draft? It wasn't right away. 2018? No. January, 2020. I was gonna say, I was, I was in a, I was, it was in London at the time. And yeah, I do remember, I do remember having one shortly after the launch. Um. Good timing to launch in the on trade, I guess. Uh, yeah, this is, yeah, it was fun. Like it was the, the rollercoaster was real. Yeah, I can imagine. So we looked, and actually, so all the way through 2019, people were saying to me like, you should, you should, you should definitely like, this, you should do this, you should have this on draft. And it makes total sense, right? If you wanna normalize a proposition for consumers, the consumer should be able to drink their beer regardless of ABV in the format that everyone else is drinking in. So you don't want to, you know, if everyone else is having a, a pint. Yeah, if you're not drinking, you shouldn't have to stand there with a different format. Um, and, but the question mark was always around rate of sale and warranting the place on the bar, uh, and, and, and getting that tap, which is, it's a, it's a different kettle of fish winning taps to winning spaces and bridges. Um, and this, it, it was going round and round, and sort of resisting it. And then. Like, like lots of things. Suddenly it was, we thought, oh, hang on a minute. If there's one time we should be having, we should test this. It should be January. January. Yeah. And for, for two reasons. One, obviously heightened consumer interest in the category, but also the nature of on trade and hospitality in that month is that they've got more flexibility because, uh, footfall is lower. So they're more, they're more open to trying different things. Okay. Um, so those two, those, those kind of, those two things work really well. So we decided in, literally in like the end of October that we should do it. And so we scrambled, made it happen, um, got everything ready. Um, we won, we won 70 draft accounts. Okay. In that, which was, which was wild for us. Yeah. We sold, we thought we'd bought three months worth of stock. It was gone in three weeks. Geez. And we were panicking on that. How do we, you can't run dry during dry January. But the, the, the on trade, um, you mentioned there like normalizing, I think that's like really interesting'cause you, you, um. It's a good point that, you know, if you're enjoying non, non-alcohol, beer only through grocery, for instance, then it's, it's not really part of the full occasion. Is that, so that was the, that was one of the, the, the reasons for that to, to, to go into it? So it started with a, um, I guess a very traditional lens on, drinks brands are built in the on trade. Okay. Um, and actually I remember going on to site. I was due to go and meet Shalen, who's, who's now our chairman. He was, so, he founded and was running Distill Ventures. Right. Which is Diageo's kind of incubator, uh, innovation, uh uh, yeah, I dunno exactly what you'd call it. I should know exactly what you'd call it. Anyway, it, that, that does its thing. And they were never gonna invest in us. They, They don't invest in Beer. But Shalen, he, he gave me a, uh, a short meeting and I remember him asking me, he's like, so what's your plan for the off trade? And I'd read on their website, so I felt quite well briefed that that drinks brands are built in the on trade. And so I threw this, I, I said, look, no plans for the off trade. Um. You know, there's embar, an embargo on even thinking about it. We like, we're just gonna be really focused in what we do. And he said, I challenge you to rethink that. I was thinking, is this a trick? Yeah, yeah. This is a, yeah, exactly, Is this a trick. And, and he said, well, the thing is, is that it's easier to convince someone to drink an alcohol free beer at home on a Monday than it is in a bar on a Friday. So people are forming their Non-alc drinking habits at home. And so the, the, the direction of travel is the opposite to normal. So people are then taking their non-alc drinking habits into the on trade rather than the traditional model is that you do all of your discovery and you're, you find your new things in the on trade and then you, and you buy them in the off trade and drink 'em at home. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so, but we started with on trade. Yeah. And that's always been like the, the, uh, that's always been a, like a consistent and core bit of the business. So even, even with that insight, that insight accelerated, like it meant that we sparked up a conversation with Sainsbury's like the next day. Oh, and, started with 80 stores in Sainsbury's, in, in that first year of trading. Okay. And sort of, and, and, and have slowly built it up. But so we've, therefore we've always the, and then we've launched D2C. So ever since year one we've been an omnichannel business. I do want to fire over, um, shift gears a little bit. So there's a lot there, um, about the decisions, but I'd wanted to, I wanted to go into a few opinions of yours on, on the industry. Um, so my first question is, say you walk into a pub 10 years from now, right? Um, what does that look like and what does, what is the, what role is non-alcoholic beer playing in that occasion? Often talked about this idea that, we, we are coming, I think we're, I think we're coming out of a, of a, of a status quo, which is everyone is drinking unless you say you're not drinking. Yeah, so you arrive at a, arrive at an event, you have to actively choose to like, not drink because the status quo. And for we're all, because we've been, we've as a society, we've been building social connections around alcohol for thousands and thousands of years. And, and it's always the norm is that you are drinking. And I think the, the switch is happening quite quickly, which is, rather than choosing the moments that we don't drink, we're increasingly choosing the moments that we do drink. Okay. And as you, if, if all the consumers have changed, are shifting that mindset, then when you go into a pub, it's, it's, it's not about what the ABV of a drink is. It's about, you know, what I'd like, you know, I'd like to be able to drink a great quality lager, and I, and I want it at a, you're obviously not gonna be able to literally select the ABV, but you know, it could be, it, it might be a, it could be a alcohol free level, it could be at mid strength, or it could be at, you know, full strength. So you could have a, like that. That's where, that's my makes sense. Um, I'm excited to, I'm excited, excited to see that. Cool. What about in the off trade? So in the off trade. Uh, I say this, this way, maybe, maybe we can talk around it, but like, you know, obviously there's this discussion with things, something like non-alcoholic beer, like where does it, where should it sit really or where will it sit in relation to something like beer or fruit and, uh, sorry, fruit juices and water? off, off trade is almost the, is a kind of more interesting canvas in a sense because. There's this blurring of the lines that's going on between categories and, and alcohol-free beer right, sits right on the fringe of stuff because in one sense it, it's, it's categorized as a soft drink in some perspectives, but then because it's a beer, it's very, the occasionality is kind of rooted within beer, but we're seeing this blurring of the lines around. Okay, but you can, you can drink a Lucky Saint with your lunch where you wouldn't drink a full strength beer. Yeah. And you know, particularly where, you know, we've launched lemon and that has a, has a totally different, uh, audience and occasion profile to, to, uh, to our lager. Okay. And so, yes, it will still exist in traditional beer aisles, but I think the opportunity is that it'll exist in a much broader number of places in store. So we're in the lunchtime meal deal in, in, in, in big retailers. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is, is just the beginning of trying to like stretch out alcohol free beer. That it, it can exist in a much wider kind of selection of, of places within store because it's being consumed on different occasions. Cool. Um, last thing for you, and then I'll, uh, we, we can close it off. A little bit of a rapid fire round. Okay. Ready for this? Not sure. No, I'm not sure. Okay. Uh, so the, the, the what I, what I would say, so rapid fire is if you could try and answer these with one word or one sentence. Okay. I'm gonna concentrate. The first one is, name an alcoholic brewery that excites you today. I might answer it in a different way. I'm really interested in, in what comes next in full, full strength beer. Um, and I dunno if it's just my pure desire, but I, can cask have a proper comeback, like a Okay. Um. Uh, Guinness has obviously had this sort of, uh, amazing period of like growth and, um, and particularly in terms of audience and there's lots of things I think that cask actually shares with Guinness in terms of, um, authenticity of product and um, you know, the search for the perfect pint and the, you know, it's got a, like a wonderful serve 'cause it's, you know, hand pull. And so there's, I, there's, there's something in that for me that I get. I'm, uh, and I hope it's more than just like my, my desire, uh, sort of romantic desire to see it, to see it, you know, remain on the bar and like actually go into, into growth. Name a brand outside of beer that inspi, that has inspired you. One of the brands I just remember so clearly listening to their story, uh, there's a guy called Blake Mycoskie who founded Tom's Shoes. Okay. Yeah. And he did a, he did an interview on How I Built This. Which is that American Founder's Podcast series. Yeah. Like, really like fantastic interviews. Um, he's an amazing storyteller. Um, and listening to him tell his story, not just about Tom's actually, but just about his, his whole entrepreneurial journey. He's had, he's had a number of businesses. Um. Was, yeah, I, I was obsessed by that se, that podcast series in general. And he, his, his journey. I like, I, I listened to that podcast five times. Okay, I gotta check it out. Never heard it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Um, one of the questions is the last beer you drank, but we're doing it here together. What about before this one? What was the last beer I drank? The last beer I drank would've been. I had a, the, we, we serve in our pub, we serve a a, a Bavarian Helles. Okay. Uh, that we drive kegs out to Germany and we, we fill them up with... Oh, really? Literally the best quality helles. And, uh, and we served that in the pub. Oh, amazing. I don't remember seeing that when I was there last time. We, I gotta go back and check it out. It's a, yeah. It's fan, like it's, it's, um, yeah, it's a fantastic, that's my other, like, yeah, it's a fantastic beer. Amazing. Uh, we had a few examples of this in the podcast, but best piece of advice you were ever given if it wasn't one of those that we already discussed. The best piece, the most liberating piece of advice I was ever given, um, was by one of the innocent founders, Rich. And I was, I was asking him for him from some advice for him on like, on building marketing teams and, and figuring out what my role was and, uh, and you know, how this, where should I, where should I lean in and where should I sort of let the team get on with it? And he said, as a founder only, you should only do the things that only you can do. Right. And it's, it was the most liberating piece of advice because it is, it's permission not just to do the things that where you add the most value, but also to actively not do the things where, where you don't. Okay. And actually, I think for, for founders, it's the most, it, it works at every stage of the journey. So in the very early stages, you should, you should actively try and shed the, the, the things, the, the roles and jobs that you're doing where you someone else could be doing it. Yeah. Um, and it, but it goes all that, it's as relevant for me today as it was on day one. Guess it helps with the focus thing as well. Right. Keeping super focused. Yeah, just, and I think we all, like, I think all founders, particularly early stages, you end up doing lots of, lots of, uh, lots of things that need to be done, but don't necessarily move the dial. Yeah, yeah. No, fully. Um, and you also have a good team. I know a few of them, uh, from my days at Camden. So you've got a fantastic team. You've got a fantastic team. Um, that always helps when you can get, you can get when the, when you've got a team that, uh, can, can take it on and, and, and do it as well as they can. Um, one sentence, last question, one sentence to inspire others looking to blaze their own path. Always focus on quality. I like it. Good idea. Yeah, I just think it's, um, it's the thing that sits at, I mean, it sits, it's the thing that sits at the middle of our brand, actually. Um, and then I, I read, actually found, if I read, I got sent this morning, uh, an art, a, a copy of an old article, uh, written by Jim Koch. That's from Boston Beer. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's entitled, um, like CEO as a salesman. Yeah. And he talks about the, at the absolute fear of going in to make his first sales pitch with, you know, unlabelled bottles of, uh, Sam Adams lager and, uh. being, and all of the, and just being totally terrified by it, and then getting a yes. And the, you know, the bar just, uh, the bar managers ordered 25 cases of beer off that and he went from, um, you know, like total fear to total elation and, um. And just that, that's, that was all down to the, everything for him like sits around like the quality of the beer. Like he's, he has to be confident as someone going and selling this beer that he's not, he's not trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Yeah. He's, he's, he's genuinely trying to give them something of better quality than they can get anywhere else. And that's, that makes your, that, you know, that makes your life so much easier. Interesting. Have you, have you read his book? He, he wrote a book. It's quite, yeah, I have done that, read it a long time ago, but, um, I do remember some good nuggets in there as well. Yeah, I definitely did the audio version. Brilliant. Uh, well thank you so much for taking the time. Uh, I really appreciate it and, uh, great to hear, um, the story. And again, it's one where, as I said, there's a lot of like research out there, but I don't think you often hear the, the, the true story, all the kind of inner workings of, of, of that start period and, and what drove the passion. Um, so thank you again for coming and sharing that with us. No, absolutely pleasure. Thanks for having me, Luca. No problem. And uh, and yeah, that's, uh, that's, that's episode uh, five in the books. The last, final episode, uh, we'll follow on in a couple weeks and that will be with Paul Jones, who's the Founder of Cloud Water Brewery up in Manchester. So everyone stay tuned for that. Thanks for tuning in, uh, listening or watching. See you soon.