How Alan Hartin Built a 22-Person Software Agency from the Ground Up Without Knowing How to Code.

In this episode, we sit down with Alan Hartin, the founder who defied the traditional "boss" archetype. Alan grew up on the north coast of Northern Ireland during the "Troubles," a period of intense religious and political conflict that shaped his perspective on life and ambition. Driven by a desire to see more of the world, he left his insular hometown to forge his own path in England.
Despite not being a coder himself, Alan built a 22-person software agency from the ground up. He shares how his "secret weapon" simply being a good person helped him lead a team of experts and create a product he didn't fully understand.
Now, Alan spends his days cycling through the Himalayas and avoiding lions in Kenya. Tune in to learn how to build a business that serves your life, rather than consumes it. 

Connect with Arun:
Instagram: @sachdegram
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arunsachdevaca/
Website: https://www.sachdevs-ca.com/

Podcast produced by MicMoguls.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Imagine launching a tech company when you don't know how to code. Imagine going to a top sports university when you haven't been on a pitch in years. These aren't exactly the hallmarks for a strong start. But my guest today, Alan Hartin, admits he wasn't the smartest guy in the room. He wasn't a coder. He wasn't even a boss in the traditional sense. Yet he built a 22-person software agency, sold it for a life-changing amount, and now spends his days cycling in the Himalayas and avoiding lines in Kenya. How do you build a business that runs itself when you have no idea how the product works? It turns out being the nice guy isn't a weakness. It was Alan's secret weapon. Enjoy the episode. Where did you start off? Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

So I grew up on the north coast of Northern Ireland. Okay. Town called Colrain, which is right near Port Rush, which has just had the open championship. But and I grew up in the Troubles, which was sort of looking back on it now, it was your childhood, you know, and I look at things going on in the world, and I've seen things. I've been to Delhi last year, and you see poverty, but that's their world, that's their life. So that you're just used to it. And I think I probably had a bit of that. We we were quite lucky. Uh we were quite sheltered from um Yeah, we were very different from Belfast and Derry.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Uh we didn't see too much, but it was still there. It was still there in the background. Um What what are the troubles for for those who kind of so so you know the the the troubles in Northern Ireland, my God, where do you start? Yeah. The nationalist community typically want to be Irish and the Unionist community, the Protestants, want to remain British.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So is it a religious thing?

SPEAKER_02 1:46

It is, yes. But it sort of is, and it isn't, because the people who sort of cause the troubles probably never go to church. So it's a weird thing. But you know, what was sort of quite sad really? I mean, what it was brilliant being back at the Gulf uh last weekend for the open because it just shows how good Northern Ireland is, and and it was a brilliant advert for the whole of the area and Northern Ireland. Uh but it was sad that my mum and dad didn't sort of you know live long enough to see that. They brought up four kids in the troubles, and it must have been hard because there was there was no tourism at all. Okay. Nobody came there. The only tourism was people from within Northern Ireland coming up to the coast in July and August. Yeah. Um so it's it's it's brilliant, and I'm so proud of the place now. But the reality at the time was when I applied for university, I um I sort of decided I I want to get out of here. Okay. Yeah, because I had sort of had that all my life and I just wanted to get away.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

It's just a small town, kind of same thing happening in the town.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

I think it it's it's it was very insular in those days. Okay. Um and I just made my mind up, I want to go to England or Scotland. So, you know, m most people in those days you had to apply for five universities, would put Belfast somewhere on the list, yeah, but mine were all either England or Scotland. Okay. So I ended up coming to Loughborough uh university, um, sports uni, yeah. Uh which I had no idea at the time. Um, and I remember um so within the first week I thought I would just have a trial for the um the football team. Okay. Um the university football team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is not your beloved team. No, no, absolutely, but not to that. But but the university team, and um I had no idea how how good the standard was.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

And I mean, it's probably the best university for sport. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

And and I'd been I'd been to primary school where we played football, and then I went to a grammar school, which was rugby. So I hadn't really played football other than five a side for about seven or eight years. And uh I was out with a mate in the bar on the first weekend, and I said, I'm gonna go to the football trials tomorrow. And he said, You must be pretty good. And I said, Well, I haven't really played for seven or eight years much. Um he said, So are you all sort of set? Why are you having a couple of drinks? I said, Well, I've got trainers, but I'll get some boots if I get in the team. And he said, Well, you know, there's um there's an England schoolboy international, and there's a kid that's playing for United, and there's only two places in the squad. I said, I'll maybe give it a miss. Oh, so you never wait. I had the clue. No, no, I didn't. I'd have been I looked a fool. So but so I, you know, but I was a Loughborough, I love Loughborough. Um I played a lot of snooker. I did study a business management degree, but I mean it was pretty easy. Yeah, yeah, you know, anybody was a week in it. Anybody could walk in and do that, to be quite honest. Um, and then yeah, and the the reason I sort of ended up, I guess, in the career I did, um I did a year out at IBM. Okay. Um so it was a sandwich course. Well, was that here in Warwick? No, it was in Portsmouth. So that's where the head office was at the time. So I did a a year down in Portsmouth, and that sort of got me into, and my friends will after this, 'cause I'm sort of not very IT savvy. Um, but it got me into the IT sort of sector. Yeah. Um and then when I left Loughborough, I worked for a software company who uh produced software for IBM hardware.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Um, and uh and it was really good training. Um and I was basically a salesperson um and and I worked there for six or seven years, so selling commercial software for IBM hardware. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Um so you went to university, you tried for football without having uh without having any experience in playing that level of football. You then went to work for IBM without having much knowledge about computers. I'm sensing a theme here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

And I ended up setting up a business. And actually, and and I saw so I effectively retired about a year ago, and I saw I had a bit of a do just to thank people who had worked for me over the years. Yeah. Funny enough, last Friday. Um, and so my very first two employees came along, and I I actually I and I hate using the word employees because uh they were always my colleagues. I I never and I mean you you might ask me questions about this, but I I never saw myself as a boss. I hated that expression. Uh we were a team, yeah. Yeah, so I know we're both big Arsenal fans, so I was far more Audegaard than Arteta. Yeah, I I was sort of you know the captain of the team, okay, but I was part of the team.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

That's interesting. I'm very much Arteta rather than Odegaard.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

No, I know, and and and I and I do think, you know, if you want to be a really successful business person, you probably need to be more Arteta. You need to step out. Or Alex for you know what I mean? Yeah. You need to be the boss basically. Um and but um I um I never sort of saw myself, you know, as that role. I just sort of, you know, people came in, we had sort of you know fairly easy interviews, yeah, and they joined the team because I liked them basically. Yeah, and I always saw them as colleagues, always sort of as a team thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Um so are these two employees still working?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

No, no, no, no. So so there was about there was about 20 turned up on and it was lovely Friday night. Yeah, there was um so about five or six ex you know, colleagues travelled from you know, quite far away across the UK, Grantham, Crewe, Oxford, and they'd driven there and they were driving back that night. And I just I I and I only invited some of them. I was going through all the people who had sort of you know were colleagues over the years, um, and you know, I invited one on Wednesday. He said, I'll be there, you know, and it was brilliant. Yeah, I loved it because um they always said I was a good salesperson, you know, which which fundamentally ended up being that I was a salesperson for the business. But I do think I was wasn't bad at HR because the people that who were there uh on Friday, they were they're all just good people.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

But you're the ultimate people person, that's always been your skill.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Well, yeah, and it's funny, but I don't, you know, I don't really recognise I sort of recognise it because they all tell me because I think it was back to my parents how I was brought up just to respect people, you know, um respect everybody, uh whether they are a colleague or a customer or a supplier, you know, with different cleaners, I would always make them a tea or coffee. I would always offer tea or coffee. It didn't matter who they were, yeah, you know, and and with customers, when they came in uh over the years, I would sort of get to know what every single customer had, a tea or coffee, black or white, one shoe, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, and I just sort of learned that and just so it's yeah, I guess it was sort of drilled into me as a kid. Yeah. My parents would not have stood for being uh disrespectful to anybody.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So I've noticed that. I mean, I've known you for about 15 plus years. And I've noticed you have a very similar philosophy to me, that you give respect to everyone. Some people say respect needs to be earned. I don't believe that. No, you clearly don't believe that. You give it to everyone until they break that.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

And one thing I've noticed is you you are uh lovely to everybody, but as soon as someone crosses you, it's kind of great over, which I'm sure we'll come to. Well maybe. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yes, but yeah, and actually, and what was lovely on Friday, because they had sort of they were all sort of coming from different directions, and actually, and they went to a pub before they came. They came around to the house, and uh yeah, I I sort of wasn't sure whether I would say this, but but yeah, but somebody said to me, we had a conversation on the uh in the pub, yeah. Um we said, who's the best boss you've ever had? And again, I don't like the word boss, but they that's what they were sort of saying, and they all said me.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

And you know, who who posed that question? Was it you?

SPEAKER_02 9:40

No, no, it wasn't no not at all. No, what one of them somebody must have brought it up, but the others, and they all, you know, and some of them gone on to work, you know, they've worked for Barclays, you know, different, you know, had a lot of, you know, and and it's probably because I was never really a boss, basically, you know, I was always a friend. Yeah, you were, you know. Uh so I, you know, well, you know, before the company sort of grew a bit, we never did appraisals or anything. You know, we didn't have to, you know. We we you know, again, you know, we were just part of the same team.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, and you were just one big group of friends.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

We were, and it was lovely, and um it was so nice seeing them all, honestly. Yeah, you know, I had such a nice night, and you know, and and and I said, and and the the thing um that sort of gave me most pleasure over the years is bringing somebody in who might have been an apprentice, you know, didn't want to go to uni for whatever reason, yeah, then succeeded and then sort of grew within the business. Um and apprentices are brilliant because they they tend to come in you know quite young and they're extremely loyal. Yeah, you know, and and most of the apprentices that came to the business are still there. Yeah um, but when they would come in and they would say, Um, uh Alan, I've just I've just bought a house, uh you know, and and you've sort of helped give them the platform to be able to do that. Yeah, um, and I sort of said that on Friday night when I sort of said a couple of words to to the team, but and then we went to the pub, and just as everybody was leaving, uh a lad who sort of joined fairly recently came up to me, uh Andy, and he just said, just so you know, I've just had a mortgage acceptance today, I'm buying a house. Wow. You know, and it was it was you know, incredible because you've got to have that journey, aren't you? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's you know, you're you know, you're huge, hugely important part of their lives in a and in a sort of funny way. You know, Annabelle, who couldn't make it on Friday, you know, who's very loyal, sort of, you know, people would say PA, but just office manager, yeah, but you know, but just organise me, which is not the easiest thing in the world. Um, she couldn't make it. But um, you know, she was just a sort of star uh employee. Yeah, you know, she's she's great. She is she just gets her head down and gets on with things. And you know, when she bought a house, I was just you know made up for her.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

That's incredible. Yeah, even I'm quite proud of it. I remember when she joined, she was 16. She was when she joined. Yeah, just young, yeah, pretty little girl. Yeah. Um, your office always reminded me of the Big Bang Theory.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Um, because I I I met the director of the Big Bang Theory last Wednesday in Liverpool.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Really?

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Yeah. So, well, you know, I mean, I don't know where this was going to come up, but you know, I know my best mate's Jimmy Nesbitt, the actor. So he was um being given a uh what is it called? Wasn't it? It was like an honorary degree um thing. If he sees it, he'll be furious. Yeah. Um at uh I certainly hope he does see this. Uh it's called the Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts, Lippa. So a big uh arts uh place in Liverpool. And anyway, as well as Jimmy, um an American lady, gay somebody, she was a lovely lady. Um so she was there and she was the director of the Big Bang Theory. Oh I was speaking to her and I said, So how many episodes did you do? He said, Well, I I joined episode seven and there was 287 or something like that. So she was there the whole time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Wow, fantastic. Yeah, it reminds me because like your team, I mean, given what you do, they are quite nerdy techie, kind of yinky guys. And it was just kind of at some, I think it was 20 when you when you sold.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

21, 22, something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I'm kind of walking into your office, and it was just the the stuff that you guys would talk about would be like, you know, coding stuff. Well, I not me. No, yeah. But you would join in the laughter. They'd all crack this joke. Oh, I don't know what they're talking about. And nor would Annabelle, and Annabelle would be like the pretty girl who kind of got sucked into the whole kind of IT clever code.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, they they were having a laugh on you know some of the funnier things that happened over the years. And there was one day this yeah, young lad, I think he joined as an apprentice, um, just assumed that I was like, I don't know, uh Steve Jobs or somebody, this you know, real IT guru. And uh he said, Um, Alan, I could do a bit of help here. So I sort of well walked over, said, Well, yeah, I'm trying to do this bit of code, and I could hear the whole of the office just chopping away, because they all knew. And I said, uh, Ryan, have you got a second?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Yeah, control or delete is kind of.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

That's all we know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

So yeah. So I did end up actually going into uh, as you sort of alluded to, a a sector that I didn't, you know, I I I worked out very, very early on. Yeah, I'm actually selling stuff and I actually can't do the work, which is quite unusual. You know, if you're uh electrician, you you you're self-employed, then you grow a business. Well, I was I went into a sector that I couldn't actually do the work. Um so very early on I realized I needed to get people in who could myself it's not rocket science.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

So I mean that's that's really, really poignant. It's it's actually happening on a couple of episodes that I've recorded. Um do you think that's a blessing or a curse?

SPEAKER_02 14:58

A blessing. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I mean you can't get sucked into the doing.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Totally, absolutely. And and actually, I I say I couldn't do it. Early on, I could do so at the very start, so going back 30 years basically, um, we were doing, you know, it's before the internet, we were doing multimedia CD-ROMs, interactive CD-ROMs. Okay. Um and um and and and there was software that you used to do great these. Yeah. And I could I I started to learn the software basically, and I started but to be able to do stuff. Uh and I I did one project, I was able to sort of do the programming, I guess, if you like. And um, but then I realized um if I took my foot off the, you know, foot off the pedal um uh in terms of the sales, then they just dried up. So once I get sucked into sort of doing a bit of work, then then it was dangerous. Um and then when the internet came along, I thought, right, I'm not going to learn how to build a website because if I do that, then uh if we get really busy, I'll end up building websites. Yeah. So I um so it was good. And um the first ever colleague, Hemant, um so you know, so when I sort of started Was he your first employee? Yes, yeah. I said I I want to mention because I wouldn't have done this without a a good friend who I haven't seen for a long time, who was a a colleague in Nottingham when I worked for the software company, yeah, Peter Robinson, who who gave me the um the reassurance to sort of do this. We did it together. Long story. My wife got a job at Warwick Castle, so I had to move away from Nottingham.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

So you settled, you and Alison settled in Nottingham originally.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

We were in Nottingham, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Did you meet at university?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah, Loughborough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then she she was working for Budson Nottingham, set the business up with my mate Pete. Then she got a job at Warwick Castle. You know, the commute was too long. Yeah, I was setting a business up, I could work from anywhere. So we moved over, and at that point, it was sort of the right thing to do for various reasons for me just to sort of go on my own. Yeah, um, and by that point I had realized, yeah, I need to get people, you know, who can do this basically. Um, and so I contacted Coventry University and they put me in touch with you know a couple of students, one of whom was Hemment. I went round to his house in Bedworth and you know said, Can you do this? He said, Yeah, I can do that. Fine. That was the interview, really. Um, and then he sort of worked from his bedroom. Uh and for a while then he worked from you know a spare bedroom in our house. He would come around to Lemmington when we when we moved there. Honestly, it was so nice meeting him because he's he, you know, I'd forgotten he was actually because we we had a couple of years sort of working together, he was a real friend, you know, he was a proper friend, and not that we lost touch, but you just our lives move on and stuff. And he was really good at what he did. We got a bit more work in and took on another student, Joe, from from Coventry. Gradually then sort of set up, you know. Hemett at one point said, Look, you know, I want a proper job. I don't want to be working from a bedroom or your spare bedroom. You know, can we get an office? We got an office which was smaller than this little studio here. Uh, and then that sort of started the ball rolling, really. Well, once I had an office and a bit of commitment, um then you know I'll remember never forget the day when me, Heman, and Joe were sat in the office, and I'm not the most organized person in the world. And there was a knock on the door because we shared this office, and somebody said, Oh, Alan, there's there's somebody in reception for you. And I said, Who's that? And I said, Um, I didn't think of any meetings. Well, no, it's a girl called Emily, she's here for an interview. I said, Oh my god, I'd totally forgotten about it. So Emily comes in, who you know, yeah, yeah. All sort of smart and nice smart suits and everything. So what what year is this? This is going back probably 2000. Okay, yeah. I was gonna say late 90s, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. So uh Emily killed me if I got we've aged her a lot, but um, it must be around yeah, early 2000, basically. Anyway, so I was so unprepared. Uh and uh with Joe and Hammond, we just literally met and said, Yeah, can you do this? Fine. So um Emily's turned up for an interview, and literally about two or three minutes in, I've sort of run out of things to say. Oh, can you can you do a bit of design work? Yeah, yeah. I said, Listen, Emily, I'm really sorry, but this is my first ever interview. He said, Well, you're doing very well. And she's still there. Yeah, she is, yeah. And her sister worked with you as well. She was there as sort of office management, you know, help Joe helped get me organized until she left. Uh and then Annabelle came in. You know, Emily and some of the guys who've been there for Emily's now 20 years. Uh Ryan, who you know who joined as an apprentice, he's still there. Yeah and it's brilliant, and it was so good to see them all. Nick, Nick's still there. Nick still there, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. When I did eventually sell the business, um the three senior people, Steve, Nick, and Emily, are still there. Yeah. Um, and I think that sort of helped hold the business together. Absolutely. Because they've got all the sort of customer relationships. Yeah. Um, the customers, you know, know them, trust them. So yeah, yeah, that has helped a lot, I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah. Okay, so you you grew the business now, well, quite when did you move to the new offices?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Um long time ago. Um, it was I don't know if you remember, back in the day, I used to get grants from Coventry City Council for moving offices. Um, we were in an office that was probably big enough, but it's free money, there's free money.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I got, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Uh so I got a bit of a grant to move to a bigger office. Yeah. And then at one point, again, long story. I won't, you know, when I first HR things first started to, you know, creep up on you, sort of thing, something happened. Okay. And then two two people left. So then we were in, as you know, that office would would probably fill, I don't know, you could get 2530. 2530 in there. Um, there was three of us in there at one point. So yeah. It's a lot of rent and rates for three people. And then, of course, at one point I put the snooker table in because I had so much space. So when I started basically to get the business in, um there was no internet. So I used to come down to the uh Lemington Library, and you won't remember this, but there was a business directory called Compass. K-O-M-P-A-L S. So like you know, I remember the library. So yeah, but well bus business directories, but all the businesses in the UK was you know m huge, you know. I remember the Thompson's local. No, it was Compass K-O-M-P-A-S-S. I remember you know, because and I yeah, and so you could go down and find the compass for the West Midlands basically. Okay. And it was a huge thing. And I would open it up, photocopy, you know, literally about twenty or thirty pages, take it back to the house, and then sort of go through, look at the sort of businesses that were in there, circle a few, and then uh ring them up, get a contact, so get the owner you know, the the the owner's name or the sales director's name and it was sort of who we were targeting. The time. I'd then write them a letter, sort of introducing image plus, send out a letter so then I would post and I would used to set myself targets of maybe 50 letters a week. Okay. Send out 50 letters.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

These are these are typed or handwritten or typed up, you know, printed off.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah. Yeah. Write the address on, take them down to the post office, put stamps on, do all that. Send out the letters. Uh, and then I had a sort of telesales day on a Friday, because I always thought Friday was a good day because people are a bit more relaxed and they tend to be in the office, you know, back in the days when everybody was in the office on a Friday. And then I would set myself a target of sort of making at least 60 phone calls. I would stop. If I got an appointment at any point, I would say, right, we've got an appointment for next week. You can stop. Or I would just keep making 60 phone calls and then I'd make notes. Sometimes you'd speak to people, can you ring them back? Sort of thing. I I I did that. And then after, and then we got busy, you know, and was all this work was coming in. And then I realized about five or six years in, all my customers started with a letter A, B, and C.

unknown 23:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

I never got past it. I think I got I think at one point because somebody mentioned uh Keller, who you may know her local company, yeah, big company. I think I must have got to the K's because I should have just kept going.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Yeah, well you'd be double the size. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I'd have made a lot more money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Well, it's probably not that many companies with X, Y, and Z. No, true. Yeah. Yeah. So what did Image Plus do at that time? It's quite hard to describe. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

So I mean, I I yeah, I I don't really know. Um yeah, so I mean it would start off with multimedia, and then then when the internet came along, um and and at that point I'd sort of uh so Hemet sort of could do a bit of programming. Okay. Then he left and he brought in a guy who was a really good programmer. He he was he was a proper um what you've described IT sort of geek. Yeah. I won't mention the name, but um he if he's watching, he'll know who he is. Yeah, yeah. But but but a brilliant programmer, yeah. And then the internet came along and he could build websites. Again. Got us into websites, um, and then and and we were able to do just normal, sort of bit like yours, marketing websites. Yeah. But then because we had programming skills, we then got into doing more technical websites, uh, so web portals and stuff like that. Um and and then when um iPhones and tablets came along, uh, we got into um what are those things? Apps. So we got into apps, um, and then and and that was probably a big game changer, really, because you're doing really because an app is a far bigger project than a website because you and completely unique. Yeah, absolutely. They all bespoke. Yeah, so we we would do, we did a lot of um sort of business process improvement apps for big companies like JLR, Jagger Land Rover, um, which sort of to to to digitize processes that they've got. Um and and you know, which made huge, huge cost savings to to those businesses. Yeah. And and they they were and I guess for the for the likes of Ryan, the real sort of programmers, um, really interesting projects for them, yeah, uh, which helps keep the team together, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

And and and that's yeah, that's when the business sort of really grew from you know, six or seven to up to sort of twenty eventually.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So that's talking about 2010, 2011, isn't it? Which is around the time I met you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a funny time when I met you because I don't even remember, I came to see you. And I used you for my parents' nursing home. Because I thought you did kind of graphic design and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you called me, said, Aaron, can you come and see me? Yeah. And I kind of gave you a proposal and stuff, and I wasn't sure how it was going to go. And I had a little Porsche, and I opened the front boot to put my bag, and I was going straight from yours to play football, and my football was an Arsenal football. And you went, You're an Arsenal fan. Yeah. And I thought, this could go either way. And I went, Yeah, you went, brilliant. I'm a massive Arsenal fan. I thought, yes, yeah, job done. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

I have been swayed by that over the years. Okay. Um Nick, who you know, he's been there I think 16, 17 years now. We're both big Arsenal fans, and while I will watch rugby, yeah, my love is football, basically. Um, and and I had a bad experience with a rugby guy who was a customer who I won't go into details, but anyway. Um, well, there's a couple of those actually. Um, but um Nick walked in and had a bit of an interview, but a bit of a chat literally. I just say, What are your hobbies? And he said, Football, and he said Arsenal. Now, he's either the greatest blagger ever, and he's a Spurs fan, and he's sort of did his research and he's sort of been doing this for 17 years, but I think he is an Arsenal fan.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Um, if he's not, he's done well to keep it in the facade for 17 years.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so, and uh yeah, a couple of clients you know get better deals if they're Arsenal fans. Yeah. So um, yeah, that has been yeah. Um it's yeah, it did help you get the job, basically. Yes, yeah, but when it when they were being interviewed, the other guy that walked in after him um sat down and said, Yes, I'm captain of the university rugby team. And I'm thinking, well, you may as well walk out the door now because you have no chance.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

What's your kind of aversion to rugby?

SPEAKER_02 27:17

It's not an aversion to it, but it's just like I sort of I don't know. Uh no, it's not an aversion. Uh and I've got some you know, my god, if anyone, let me tell me that you're watching this, you know, they're more into the rugby than football. Yeah, um, but I just I my love is football. Um I know what you mean. Some people you you you're one or the other, aren't you? And I think you've got the complete spectrum of of people love football. Yeah. Um, and it's really important to be able to engage with anybody, no matter where the what their background is. Yeah. And I, you know, I think football is more inclined to give you that those skills than rugby, where you tend to be more private school, you know, education where you don't necessarily have that empathy with, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, with the working man. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I'm I'm went to worry school, so grew up around rugby. All my old school friends still rugby obsessed. And I I make sure I know about anything big that's happening. I know who's playing the Six Nations, I know. But I do it with a bit of pain. It's it's like, I really don't like this sport. No. I like the concept of it. Yeah. I think it's man's sport and it's it's great for that respect, but uh it's not a lot of fun to watch. Oh, I mean, it's it's pretty boring.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

But the ball is the wrong shape and you throw it backwards. I mean, there's nothing natural about it. Football is the most natural sport in the world. Yeah, I agree. You know, and you just throw a ball down. Yeah, you know, if you went out into any school playground, yeah, threw down a football and a rugby ball, they'll all ignore the rugby ball.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

And no one's gonna pick it up and throw it back.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Apart from that chap in rugby who decided to pick up the ball and ruin it for the rest of us. Yeah. Good. Um so you grew the business pretty well, I suppose slum and steadily.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

And I guess yeah, I don't know who else you're sort of speaking to, but I I was never yeah, I've never been, I've never seen myself as an entrepreneur. I've just seen myself as one to um have a nice business, uh get on with people, have good customers, uh, and just have enough money to do what I want.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

But that's because you are if we use the word obsession, you're not obsessed with things.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

No, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

You are obsessed with experiences. Every time I speak to you, you are never here. I don't even know how we managed to get this. This is I film on a Friday. Um, this is Monday morning, um, because Alan is not available at any other time. Um, because you live a bloody good life. I do.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah, you know, honestly. And especially, I mean, uh, you know, people, you know, we were chatting to friends yesterday, uh uh and mate um Simon who sort of had a really sort of senior job at Siemens, I think, you know, the telecommunication, uh and he's just literally just stopped work. And I think he's struggling a bit. Yeah. Whereas mine was a bit more gradual. You know, I'd sort of over the years sort of, you know, slowed down a bit.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

But I think that's because you enjoyed work.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

I enjoyed work, but I also I would, as we were saying before we sort of started, if I ever got asked to do something or go somewhere that was better than what I would otherwise be doing, yeah, like on a Monday in Lemmington doing this, for example. Yeah, you're very lucky that I'm here. Um, I would just say yes. Yeah, you know, and and I've also got a very, very understanding wife who just sort of, when she knows that you know something crops up. But like going to the thing in Liverpool last week we were talking about, yeah. I went to that, yeah, my mate was there, but mainly because Paul McCartney was hosting it, and I knew I'd meet Paul McCartney, one of my big uh heroes. Yeah. And since I sort of effectively retired about a year ago, I've done so much. I mean, literally. Um and almost at one point I remember getting to Birmingham Airport in May this year, and I think this is the third time you've been here this month, and I was thinking, God, you need to sort of take a bit of a break and just stay in Lemmington for a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Um, you looked outside, saw the weather, and yeah. I saw that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

I go back to Port Rush a lot. Yeah. Um, so I was back for the open and going back on Wednesday to play the course a couple of times. Um, and then yeah, I've got a bit of a gap then before I'm going to Valencia. You know, but last year I cycled in the Himalayas. This year I'm cycling in Kenya across the Maasai Mara, which should be interesting, trying to avoid the lions and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

But yeah, my new MD, she spends a lot of time with a Maasai and she lives in a cave for two weeks. Right. And um, yeah, she tells me that the biggest thing is just not being eaten at night.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yeah, great. Yeah. Well, my uh my theory is I've invited a mate of mine, Carsi, along, um, because I know he's not as fit as me. So if we get chased, we just need to be quicker than that.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

So it's the whole line in Gazelle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, two things just on finishing on Arsenal. Um, how did you become an Arsenal fan? Because that is a great story.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah. Um well I think we've you know growing up in Northern Ireland, everybody supports an English team because Northern Irish football isn't very good. It's amateur basically, and it's typically Liverpool United, you know, a bit of Arsenal Everton. When I was about six, I was sort of becoming a West Ham fan because of Bobby Moore, the World Cup, uh, Martin Peters, Jeff Hurst. Uh, and my primary school had a catalogue and they were ordering football shirts. Um, and I I uh actually ordered a West Ham shirt, gave the paperwork to my mum, she filled it out in West Ham.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Send a check off for a person's show. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

The teacher came up to me and seen a big box arrived and said, Oh, Al, I'm really sorry. Um, it's sold out of West Ham shirts, but would you take an Arsenal shirt? I said, Yeah, fine. And that was it. Yeah, yeah. How lucky was I? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, when I got married, you gave me one very um good piece of advice. Something you you you told your wife when you met, said you you you say it.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Well, I just said, you know, I was an Arsenal fan since I was six. I met you when I was twenty. So they've got a 14-year head start, yeah. So they will um you know they've they they do take priority a lot, and I've now got um two sons, Jack and Harry. Um, and Harry was big into football all his life. He's always been fanatical, and then Jack just laterally since he was about he's now well 10 years ago, I guess, he got into it as well. And and the three of us are fanatical Arsenal fans, and uh other than my uh trips away with my wife, which are obviously the best trips ever on.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Going to London on the train with Harry, meeting Jack in London, he lives there, going for a bite to wee, and going to watch a game is just the best. Yeah, it is. Yeah, nothing better than it. Nothing better. And and yeah, I wouldn't swap it for anything.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah, I had a season ticket when I met my wife, and I lived in Lemington Spa, so every Saturday or every time I saw playing at home, it was the best. And people people say, Well, you don't get lonely going by yourself there. It's brilliant. No. Because I'm with people all day, Monday to Friday. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Saturday was my day, and getting on the train, getting a burger, having a couple of pints, watching the game. Because the pairs people to the left and right, they're your best mates for those 19 minutes. Yeah, sometimes they're not actually. Well, yeah, I think where you sit, they're a bit more extreme. Yeah, um, in the posh seats where I was, uh, yeah. You know, the prawn sandwich for great. Yeah. Um, and it was it was great. And I said that to her. I said, listen, I loved Arsenal before I loved you. And so just understand the priority.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah, I didn't say that, Alison, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah, yeah, I may have I may have uh twisted that. But then the kids come along and Saturdays no longer become available.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

But um Yeah, when the kids are younger, it's harder. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Well, I still manage it.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Well, come on to kind of life post uh image plus. But about seven, eight years ago, you were approached by somebody to uh by the business, and at that time you were in mid-40s.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

I was no, no, no, I was I was I remember uh God, I think I was about 55, it's about must be it's nearly about nine or eight or nine years ago. Yeah. I would have been sort of fifty-three or so because I remember one of the things I s I sort of said, look, I want to sort of remain until I'm at least 55. Yeah. But I wasn't really ready to do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And someone dangled the carrot, didn't they?

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah. Yeah, and then yeah, and then it sort of, yeah. It didn't work out. Um and are you holding back? I am holding back. You don't have to name them, but it was it was a no, but but but it was I guess it was it was people who I trusted then who then sort of went behind my back, basically.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

And this is one of your main guys in the business.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah, a couple, yeah. And and I and I I wasn't aware what they were doing exactly. I thought, you know, then then when it sort of the the sort of potential purchase sort of stopped, they sort of said they're doing their own thing, but in reality they were setting up the competition against me. The worst thing was not knowing that it was happening and then gradually working it out, you know, just saying things, well, this seems weird. And then we I had a call with a with a customer one day, and it became pretty transparent what what was sort of happening. So what was happening?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

So you had the business.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Um and they were sort of starting to take a few customers, they were they were taking some of the staff. Yeah. So so it got to the stage where I can't I I didn't trust anybody within the business because because there was you know, that they left, and then another guy left, and he said he was going to work somewhere where in reality he was going to work for them. And then I started to piece things together, and it was then then at one point I just thought I can't trust anybody. So when I was putting meetings in my diary, I wouldn't even put down the name of the business. I would abbreviate them or I put something in case because I didn't know who else within the office. And and that sounds really bad for the rest of the team that I didn't trust any of them, but I just didn't know who I could trust, and it was really hard. When I look back on it now, I I say it was the worst thing and the best thing that ever happened to me in business because it it gave me a real awareness of what um mental issues are like, basically. Um and also then when I figured things out, uh yeah, I could have it could have gone so easily could have gone the wrong way. Um but I stuck with it with huge support from my family and from them, you know, the the the current senior management team, Steve and Emily. And I thought, right, fuck this, basically. I'm just gonna, you know, get my head down and get through this. And and it was it was difficult. Um, but I did, you know, and and and because when when it happened, there was two or three people left. And we went down to about six in the team at the time. Um, and then within about three or four years, we're up to about 22. Yeah, you know, so it was it was a huge and maybe it was a sort of kick up the arse that I maybe needed, I don't know, but it was it was tough.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Um I noticed this with a lot of clients that and friends, that when something bad happens like that, it can go one of two ways. Either you curl up and go it's over and you think you you know you go into a hole, or just this rocket gets fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you find this gear that you just didn't know you had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This ability that actually has been lying dormant for ages, yeah, suddenly becomes alive. Yeah. Um, one of the episodes is someone called Amy Bird. Um that's the in the ultimate story of that. When you've been completely shafted, yeah. Um you you take yourself to a level which you never knew you had. And you that's exactly what it did.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

You remember what six when I play any sport, I'm very competitive. Yeah, uh, and that's what it was. It just sort of right, it gave me a right, okay. I'm gonna show you basically. Yeah. Um and you know, and it was still hard for you know, for another good year basically. Then things started to to to roll, and you know, we we took it onto a different level. Absolutely. It was good.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

And then the actual sale did come about. Now was we're talking about two years ago now?

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Uh two and a half years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and I had um I had sort of started down the the route of um management buyout with you know, Steam Nick and Emily. And then I was made an offer from an existing client and his wife, um, which was I was basically getting the same money sooner. Okay. Uh, you know, and I just I was I was about 58, 59. And if that hadn't happened, I would have been still, you know, running the business today, probably to get the money out. Um, and I spoke to Steve Nick and Emily and I said, Look, you know, this has been offered to me. And because they're friends, they said, Look, do what's right for you. But I what I also did, I insisted that they got five percent each of the new business. Okay. So there's they're still their shareholders, you know, so that they they got something back basically without having to put any money in. So so it, yeah. Um And you retained a little bit, didn't you? Yeah, I've I've got 10%. Yeah. Yeah. Um so Yeah, so the next two years then when I was sort of still working, uh, it was just different because new owners would come in, and it's the reality is it's their business now, yeah, you know, and and I guess me being there probably didn't make it easy for them because you know, people sort of still saw me as yeah yeah but they're well, yeah, I don't use that. No, yeah, I know. But but yes, they did, yeah, you know, and um and then I just sort of you know the right thing to do gr was gradually I sort of sort of stopped, you know, start to sort of stand back a bit, which I've now done, and then so about a year ago, yeah, effectively you know, stood back completely. Um and then yeah, I just started travelling. Um and so I never really had a sort of leaving do as such until Friday night just gone. I was it was really nice. Yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Yeah, oh fantastic. Um is it hard? Is it hard to kind of you know that was your baby, you you set it up?

SPEAKER_02 41:10

It is a bit with uh yeah, it is, yeah, absolutely. You know, it feels like you know, because I ran it for 28 years, yeah, you know, uh and and everybody there effectively was employed when I was there. Yeah um and it is a bit, you know, you want to sort of um you want this the business, you know the the the the by far the most important thing to me, I'm not really yeah my that 10% if it makes any money, great. But the most important thing is everybody has a job and keeps buying houses and just keeps sort of you know and keeps growing and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Yeah, and progressing in their life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I always look at Ferguson and Wenger. Like with Wenger, he left it kind of the wrong time. So Arsenal could only really go up. Yeah. But I look at Ferguson, I wonder if he is loving what's happened at Man United, thinking I was so brilliant. Look what I managed to achieve with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you take me out, what happens?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah. Um especially in his final season. Yeah, the team that he had. Yeah. Yeah, who then the next season was pretty dreadful. Yeah, and I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Or do you look at it and go, that was my baby, and I want to see it keep going?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

I think he would, yeah. I've through Jimmy, I know him, you know, know Alex pretty well. And I think he would he would rather see it succeed. Yeah. You know, I must must kill him going to Anfield and saying United get Trunston stuff. Um I think he'd still want to see it succeed. We love it though. Well, well, no, I mean as if we've got a relationship with Alex Ferguson, it's different. You know, uh, even though Jimmy doesn't have a soft spot for Arsenal, I do have for United. Do you? Yeah, I do a bit. Well, because I've got to know Alex over the years. That's true. I think Arsenal and United both did it within their means, really. Yeah. You know, whereas Yeah, City. City, yeah, yeah, they've bought Chelsea. Correct. They've just bought titles, basically. Absolutely. Um don't want to talk about Liverpool, really.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

No. Um you're right. I'm surprised you bought a softspot in Man United. But you're you're a little bit older than me.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Soft spots are probably a bit strong.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Okay, is that a bit strong?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yeah, it's just I I hate them less than Liverpool and Spurs.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Do you do you hate Spurs like most Arsenal? Because we're both non-local Arsenal fans. Yeah. So I don't have that hatred for Spurs that kind of a North someone growing up in North London would. Yeah. Whereas in the 90s and 2000s, it was Man United.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Tottenham weren't a team. It was United. I mean, it was. I mean, and they I mean that those days, I mean you would have been very young, but you know, from the Vanga Ferge years.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Oh no, I was just 15, 16. I was young. I remember them well.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah. But they were just the best footballing years of my life. Without question, the the the rivalry was so intense. Yeah. And you know, I've got yeah, s some of my best mates are United fans, and we used to in those days we would have gone to every home and away game. Yeah. And, you know, depending on the results, well. If there was a result, as if it wasn't a draw, typically we wouldn't be speaking to each other in the evening. I mean, it was that intense. I mean, it was and but it was brilliant. I mean, it was just like, you know, I mean, Alison watches games with Harry when we're playing, I don't know, Brentford or somebody, and and the tension in our house. I mean, my God, if she didn't know what it was like in those days, it was that was crazy. Yeah. But brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

My my Apple Watch um reminds uh my wife will know when it's a big game because my Apple Watch starts telling me that your heart rate is out of your motionless, you've been and your heart rate is at 120. And so it's either Man United or Liverpool. Um it's uh yeah, it does something to you, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 44:42

It's it does. It's weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's the best, you know. You know, and and I guess you you go to games and if the result goes the wrong way, it's it's horrendous. It's painful. But but that's why if the result goes the right way, it's so enjoyable, you know. So it's it's and you know, and the Premier League, you actually never know almost any game. There's no guarantee you're gonna win any game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

So it's uh But that's the beauty of all sport. I mean, the day we're filming is Indian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And my uncle's a massive India fan. And there is no way India could win. At this time yesterday, there is no way in hell India could win. And the fact that they just have it, I think the odds were less than 1%. Were they? Yeah, there was it was it was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Wow. Um I should have known that.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

There was always a chance, you know. You just needed to take two or three wickets.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah, but England needed 50, and they they needed they're like six wickets in hand. If you scored 380 runs and only lost four or five wickets, the last 50 should be easy. Yeah. But um they're incredible. So now you really are living the the life. It's uh like what does that look like? The kids are kids are grown up, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah, so Jack's working in London, um, doing really well in the sort of TV and film production um industry. Harry's a qualified financial advisor. He's effectively living from home. Uh he says he's not, but he is. He's better flat in Levington, but he spends five nights a week. He's washing in the field. Um and it's literally um as much traveling as I can fit in, basically. Uh you know, I do I do a lot of stuff around the house. First strike this morning, I was shampooing carpets, for example. Wow. So I I sort of try and the one thing I want to do, because I play the piano and I want to sort of try and spend time to sort of you know get myself as I used to be pretty good years ago when I was 18, 19. Get back to that. Yeah, you know, the one thing I treated myself to, um yeah, I remember when when you took me out for lunch kindly after I sold the business, and I was telling you the story about my financial advisor said to me, um, so would you see yourself buying a Lambo? And I said, A Lambo, what's that? You know, and and then you said, Before you go any further, you've actually got one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, so you've arrived here in your shiny Lambo. I've cycled here in my shiny bag. Yeah, I haven't I haven't uh taken it today, but but yeah, but that's that's what's right. So I treated myself to the top of the range, Yamaha Digital Piano, and that was me splashing out, and that was about 5k or something. Yeah, and I love it to bits. Yeah, I you know, I'm gonna be able to do it. Because that's your thing. You're all about experiences, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Life's about memories, yeah. And um uh whether that's just going to the pub with your mates, you know, which I do quite a lot, or playing golf, or just traveling, you know, with family, you know, which I do as much as I can. It's about about memories. And and I sort of try to always instill in the team, just you know, because some of them, because they are I don't like using the word geeky geeky, but they'll be the first to admit it. But they're programmers, and I just, you know, and some of them they'll work on the computer in the office, then they'll go home and they'll play games at night, but just go away for what thing which we haven't touched on actually, which is probably the thing that I'm most proud of, going back to sort of people buying houses and stuff, but in terms of what I did for the business, I introduced a four-day working week.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah, I remember.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Um and you were on TV for that. Yeah, because it was quite a big thing. It was it was sort of just after COVID when it really opened my eyes that people can work from home. You know, there was days when we were very much nine to five in the office, and if it snowed, I would expect people to get to work. Yeah, you know, and it's so ridiculous when you think about it now. My attitude was always Because you would get to work. Yeah, exactly. My attitude was, well, if you're going holiday today today, could you get to Birmingham Airport? Yeah. And they would, obviously. So I sort of sort of made them, but just said, no, you need to get into the office, even though they'd be driving for an hour through snow, it was just ridiculous. So COVID really sort of set showed me how people can work from home and you can trust them. Yeah. Um, and then I just thought, uh, fuck it. You know, when when I'm sort of trying to make their working experience as pleasurable as possible, I just said, look, uh, I'm thinking of a four-day working week. Um and we went from something like 37 and a half hour week to a 35-hour week. So they were working longer days.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

So normally it'd be nine to five. So what sat night, eight or six?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

I can't remember the exact hours, but you know, uh it was it was sort of working 35 hours over four days again. Um longer days. Yeah. And we, you know, so we had half the team were work Monday to Thursday, the other half Tuesday to Friday. Okay. And we always had, so if we had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, everyone was in.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And Monday and Friday, halfway.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You had sort of half the team, Monday and Friday. But we always had there'd always be an app developer on a Monday, an app developer on a Friday, you know. So we we sort of split the team up that way. Yeah. Uh and they they they embraced it and they loved it. And why not? And then so I sort of just use that and just go away for a weekend break whenever you can, because you're not taking any holiday. Just go.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

And especially if you're flipping, then that's some weeks. Yeah. Some weeks I suppose you're going to be working on it.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Exactly. You'd you'd have a two-day weekend, but then every but ever every couple of months you'd have a four-day weekend. Yeah, a four-day weekend, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah, which is a proper break. Yeah. You could plan holidays better. Yeah. It comes down to trust, really, doesn't it? Totally. And I think us as business owners, and I'm certainly guilty of this, kind of think people, staff, employees, teammates, whatever you want to call them, um, will try and do as little as possible for as much money. That's just our fear. And therefore, if you let someone work from home, they're in the kitchen, they're in the garden, they're not working. Yeah. Um, but it's just not true, is it? I suppose it is true with some people, but you find out quite quickly who these people are.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

You can you can find out, yeah, obviously. Um, you know, it's a wee bit like it's almost I I you know, there were there were certain businesses, I can't think who, but where you just sort of say, right, this is the work you have to do this week, yeah, just do it. Yeah. It doesn't if it takes you two days, fine. If it takes five days, fine. Yeah. Just get this work done this week, yeah. You know, to a really high level.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Because you're doing projects. So actually, you're not really that customer facing in terms of the programmers. They should be able to do that. Oh, they're not.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

So they're literally just head down, just go on and just program. Yeah, just programming. And they can do that from anywhere. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We have had this. I've got, I think there's two of them are still yes, two of them are still working for the business. Just by coincidence, three guys from Portugal, um, you know, and there was one had to go back, I don't know, for a family. Oh, I remember him. Family crisis. Um, there's still so there was Joe, Wolof, and Philippe. Wolof and Philippe were still there. And he said, Alan, do you mind if I work from Portugal for a couple of weeks? My mum's not well, or whatever it was. I said, Yeah, no problem. Yeah, you know, and um, you know, they're online, they can work from anywhere. Exactly. So why not let them? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

And they'll work harder for you. Yeah, that love is there in that respect. Yeah, the loyalty, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

I remember when Jimmy was filming Lord of the Rings, you I think you went to New Zealand. You went to New Zealand for like three months.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

No, I didn't. It felt like that. I went for two weeks. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Um, but um, and again, it was he had been sort of filming for about three years, and it was towards it was it was the very, very end of the filming. And he said to me, Look, you know, um part of his contract was friends and family could fly out business for free, basically. Yeah, he had so many trips a year. He said, You know, I've been here for three years, you haven't been out once. This is your last chance to come out. So I said to my wife, I said, Look, Jimmy's sort of really keen for me to go. I'm you know, I'm putting myself out for him, obviously. Um, yeah, that's fine, just go. But we had just started quite a big extension of the house at the time. And the day I left was the day they started knocking walls down. And I left the house and there was dust and mess everywhere. Oh my god. I left and I was yeah, in Wellington for two weeks. But I had a brilliant time, but yeah, Alison's ringing me every day. She said, Oh, the builder needs to know what to do, do about this. So it was really stressful for her.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

And probably in the middle of the night for you.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Yes, it was, yes. It was quite difficult because you know, every time she had a conversation with me, I'd probably had a couple of glasses of Pinot Noir. Um, but um, but again, it was one of those chances in life to do something major that you know, so she she she's been brilliant over the years, yeah. Just not saying no to things like that. Yeah. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

But you are who you are, and I've known you for a long time and you've never changed. And so I imagine in the kind of 30 years prior to that, you never changed either. Like you are who you are and you're gonna do what you're gonna do, and you're you're very clear, you're very clear on what you want and what you want uh your life to be about. I think growing up with a few. Well, but I think growing up with a famous best friend can be a blessing and a curse because you could probably get sucked into a world that you probably don't want to be part of or enjoy. But I think you've taken the best bits of it.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Well, as as Jack said to me, so my eldest he said to me once when I was had some other thing with Jimmy, he sort of said, you know, I think he had maybe come along to it or something, he was there or something, said, Dad, you you actually get all the perks of of Jimmy's fame, but none of the hassle. Yeah, which is absolutely spot on. So I, you know, because actually you say I could get sucked into it, I couldn't because nobody's interested in me, because I'm you know, I'm not a story or I'm not a celeb or anything. But um, so I I I've sort of, you know, I've been so lucky over the years to to do things that I couldn't, you know. My schoolmates, yeah, obviously the same year, um, and I was the first of my because I was the oldest in our school year to turn 60, and and as each of them turned 60, I said, this next decade, as so long as we're healthy, uh should be the best decade of our lives. Yeah. Uh and so far I've smashed it, yeah. You know, so I'm just turned 61 and I've had the best year of my life. Yeah, you know, so you've done the Himalayas, and then you're doing uh doing Kenya. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean I'm not huge into cycling, but it's yeah, again, it's it's you know, it's October this year, cycling across the Maasai Mara in Kenya, and and the the itinerary sounds incredible. So yeah, why wouldn't I do it?

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, you know, you could be building websites in in Coventry.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Well, I couldn't. Well yes, you could have attained that too. And I could have colleagues, I could do it.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah. Thanks very much. Brilliant's been a real pleasure. Yeah. I always I always like spending time with you. That's good. When I made my list of people, you know. Yeah, absolutely. We have always got on, we've never had any issues.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

It's kind of um and you know, especially, you know, when when we've had meetings, especially as for yeah, especially with Amar, who you mentioned, who's also a big Arsenal fan. When he came in for a meeting, you know, I would have colleagues waiting to come in to talk about the website or the app or whatever. I said, Well, you'll have to give us half an hour so we've got Arsenal to be first. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah, I don't think he's as much of a fan as you and I. No. He's he's more kind of plastic. Yeah, he's into his crazy routines, which you'll see on on his episode. Yeah, no, I think he's asleep before the game starts. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, he's good lads, good lads. Thanks, Holland. Brilliant, Arn. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers.