Dads Against the Narrative
THE PODCAST WHERE WE CUT THROUGH THE NOISE, CHALLENGE THE STATUS QUO, AND TALK REAL TALK ABOUT LIFE, FAMILY, AND THE WORLD AROUND US.
Dads Against the Narrative
Episode 4 - Institutionalized Pregnancy & Industrial Birth
The first domino was a birth plan—and it toppled into a full rethinking of health, faith, and fatherhood. We sit down with Daniel from Honest Fatherhood to trace how one homebirth invitation exposed hidden assumptions about medicine, control, and fear, and how building competence as a dad creates the calm that mothers need to feel safe. From there, the conversation widens into family culture by design: not just what we believe, but the daily rhythms that prove it—food choices, tech boundaries, nightly AARs, and the quiet discipline of showing up.
We don’t dodge the charged topics. Daniel shares a ground-level view on race, DEI, and what real empowerment looks like—cultivating competence and opportunity instead of papering over problems with quotas. We model what the internet rarely allows: disagreement without contempt. The rule at home is simple and powerful—address behaviors, don’t shame character. It works with kids when tempers flare, and it works with adults when politics collide. Along the way, we revisit the father’s role as protector in a modern world: not from lions, but from algorithms, outrage, and passivity.
If you’ve felt the drift of doomscrolling, the weight of unspoken misalignment with your spouse, or the ache of wanting to lead without becoming a tyrant, this conversation is a practical reset. Learn how competence creates confidence, how confidence creates calm, and how calm creates safety—especially for moms in labor and kids learning who they are. Tap in, take notes, and then take one step tonight to turn belief into culture.
If this resonated, follow Honest Fatherhood on Instagram, subscribe to the show, and leave a review with one practice you’re adopting this week. Your feedback helps more dads find the tools to lead well.
Welcome back to the Daz Against the Narrative podcast where we talk all things conspiracy theory, but under the understanding that what we're really trying to do is be men who are critical thinkers. Because as fathers, our job is to not only be critical thinkers, but speak that out into the world and to teach our children to not just do what they're told to do, not just do what the rest of the crowd is doing and follow like sheep, but to actually think critically and to live a life that makes sense to them and understanding how they believe what they believe and then acting upon those things. So we're glad you're here. We're glad to have you back. We're also glad to have in-house with us today uh Daniel from Honest Fatherhood. We're so excited to have you. He lives not just down the street from me, but a few hours away. Tennessee is a very long state. Uh, so he's about three hours away from me over near Memphis. And so we're glad to have you on, man. Again, you always know that we've got my co-host Jag Nofo as well, on here as well. So we're glad to have all of you here. Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today uh to talk all things conspiracy theories and uh and and uh just questioning the narrative as much as possible to live the life that we're meant to live uh in the largest way possible. Thanks for coming with us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, awesome. Happy to be here. I'm super excited. Have no idea what y'all have in store. So this is gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I'm really excited about that.
SPEAKER_00:Daniel, thanks for being here, brother. Nate, it's great as always, bro, to just sit here and talk with you for an hour and shoot the shit and see what happens and see what how we can help others. Anyways, Daniel, to get us started, we ask one simple question. What conspiracy was the one that kind of started your critical thinking or down this rabbit hole to being where you are today? I because I do know that you're homeschooler and you do a lot of things on your own, and I love it. Very nature-based as I am, but uh you're just on a whole nother level. And I'm trying to get there, brother.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so that that's interesting. Yeah, you said it right. Like there's usually this one domino, and it just the whole thing falls down. It wasn't actually me. I would say uh 13, 14 years ago, my oldest son's 13. Before we had him, I was pretty much just drinking the Kool-Aid that was fed to me about everything. And my wife wanted to have a home birth with our first son. And when she told me, I was like, that sounds irresponsible and crazy, but I'm not the one doing it. Um, you have to do it. So I feel like I I love you and want to support you. And at some point I knew it aligned with my beliefs, right? That you know, God made the human body to be able to support the things the human body needs. So I had to start learning so that I wasn't pressuring my wife. And she was saying, if you would listen to some podcasts and learn about this stuff, you won't feel so apprehensive. And if you're apprehensive and stressed out, it's hard for you to be supportive of me when I'm in labor. So I kind of need you to get on board with this thing. Um, man, so I started studying that and it just opened up this whole world around health, around like kind of the whole medical world and what they tell us that we have to do. Um, man, I cannot tell you when it started because once you have a child and you bring a child into a doctor's office and you have some beliefs and you experience the pressure and just the assumptions that the medical world will give you in the judgment on your decisions about your child, you start to realize I've got to develop some backbone and some firm beliefs about what's best for my child, or someone will tell me what to believe about my child, about their health, about what's best for them. And man, yeah, that started the whole trail of homeschool, of what culture thinks about dad's involvement with boys and with sons and gender roles. Like it was just a whole new world that opened up for me. But it was my wife wanting to have a home birth with my first son that kind of started the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, that's that's awesome. I love it that uh that she's like, I'm gonna need you to get on board with this. That that because I I know that that actually I don't know where she comes from and all this, and I'd love to hear it, but that's kind of the the one thing, one of the things that I feel like women, and and we can get into this, but like when you watch TV shows or movies, like when women go like are pregnant or giving birth and they're and they go to the hospital, it's like screaming and freak out sessions, like the whole thing is chaos and fear. And I feel like the entire, at least uh like I don't know how old you are, but you guys, I know Jack is Jack and I have the same birthday, so I'm I know he's only a year younger than me, but I'm you know, I'm 45. We're looking at uh that age group, those women grew up in the in the culture and the stew that it's like, oh, having a baby, you gotta be at the hospital, you gotta be uh, and it's gonna be it's gonna be so painful, and you're not gonna be able to handle it, like almost like talking down and dumbing down. And I uh Jack always brings up feminism, so I'm happy that I get to do this right now, but I really believe that it comes back to that. Um, so I'm really intrigued that the fact that she wanted to have a home birth and told you you need to get on board. Um, that's that's awesome. How maybe you can't can't speak to it very well, but how did she come up with that feeling? Like, where did she come from with that to say, no, this is I want to do this completely different?
SPEAKER_03:Um, she's always been kind of granola. That sort of like came from her father, and her upbringing was sort of going against the grain. Um, you know, and I'll share with you guys that we probably have different beliefs on this, but we're a Christian family. However, her relationship with the church also had sort of a similar experience, that there was kind of a religion that sought to control instead of encouraging a relationship with Jesus. And when she and I lived in LA and we were trying to find our own faith, our own beliefs, um, she started uh absorbing things differently. Like, what do I believe because they're my beliefs? Yeah, and not because I was grown up with it. So it actually started with the church and then went towards culture, and we kind of came back to our faith in a really authentic way. Um, but yeah, I remember when she first wanted to start doing gardening with some uh girlfriends of hers, they were like, we're doing no till, it's completely organic, no roundup. And they spent all this time like sweating and weeding and pulling these weeds. And I was like, you know, if you sprayed some herbicide on there, it'll have a lot of time. And you know, you could get bigger tomatoes if you use fertilizer. She was like, dude, you are missing the point. And uh it's so ironic that yeah, I know hey, it's crazy. I owned a landscape company at the time that was just about I'm gonna work 60 hours a week, I'm gonna make as much money as I can. But the way this is kind of funny, but the way I did landscaping was it didn't honor nature or the environment or connection to Earth at all, it was just about money. And so, in another way, my wife inspired me to have a stronger connection with food and with nature that actually changed how I did my landscaping business as well. So she sort of was rooted in we need to have a life that's more in touch with our relationship with God, our relationship with the planet, and all these things aligned with that, like the food we ate, the way she had a child. Um, you know, so uh that's probably the best I could speak to it, but it was just innate in her spirit, like she just felt that energy.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. Uh Daniel, that we have very similar stories, but not with baby one. Baby one for me was born in a military hospital, super traumatic. 20-something people are in there, they're like pointing them out with forceps. So, baby two, my wife's now my wife came to the exact same terms as your wife, and she's just like, No, we're gonna do the whole thing natural. I'm not doing prenatals, I'm gonna eat the proper food, I'm gonna eat liver, blah, blah, blah, right? The whole package. And then she just starts sending me reels on Instagram because there's so many natural births on Instagram that I didn't know about. My wife's like, watch this one, you know, just desensitized you really slowly. And it worked because when she went into labor, well, her water broke like 72 hours earlier, which I didn't know wasn't even a thing. I'm already like hyped up, like for three days, like, oh shit, this baby's coming. She's calm as a whistle, and she then goes into labor, labors for like 26 hours with the baby, and it's just me and her for a while. And I went downstairs, our neighbor was a doctor. Uh, and I go down, I'm like, hey, can you come check my wife's vitals and everything? She's at like 22 hours in labor at the moment, and this doctor's only done in hospital births. She's never seen a home birth or seen like two people who are just like doing it themselves. And she comes up there in total shock. Another lady comes to drop some stuff off, and she's had three home births. So she's like, Oh, let me come and help Simone really fast. And she's showing me some moves, anyways. The baby didn't move for like 22 hours. He just stayed on this one side of her, never moved. I'm now at like panic mode, and my wife's kind of she's almost at the edge where she's like, call an ambulance. I'll just I want the baby out of me. I want him safe and healthy. And it's funny because we're not super religious. We pray with as a family, we we do all those things, but we kind of had a very similar thing where it's we grew up in the uh church, my wife and I, and we felt the power from above, like telling us, no, this is who you have to be. And we're like, dude, that kind of pushed us away, and we slowly have come back to the church as we've had kids. You know, and it's not that we go to church, but now we pray, now we talk about God, we talk about Jesus. We and my son just is like, Jesus is my guide, that is my homie, like that is my man. And I swear he has like dreams and premonitions with Jesus all the time. It's crazy. Anyways, my wife, the the lady starts praying over us. She's like, Do you care if I pray? And Nate, I've never told you this story, have I? You haven't, no, so so the lady goes, Can I pray over you guys? And we don't like the lady who's in the house. So we never got along with her. She's she's just totally like her way or the highway. And um we're like, Yeah, you know, you're you're coming actually to help us, even if we don't like you right now. This is like you're being a an angel somehow. She starts praying. I've only felt the Holy Spirit twice in my life, and this was the second time. The first time my mom died, and I was uh in the room praying over her. I was 22 years old, I was the only Christian of my family. I asked everyone to leave the hospice room, and I prayed over my mom, and I felt like the Holy Spirit come through me and gave me the shivers. Like right now, it just gave me them, and it was like God saying, She's safe, she's okay, I have her. And that was the exact feeling I felt when my mom died. Well, when the baby, when she started praying for this baby to move and for the baby to come out healthy, I felt it again. It was like the exact same feeling. He's safe, he's okay. I have got him, he's on the perfect timing. Trust the process. And my wife, she said, all of a sudden, right after like the prayer, she felt that um what is it? It's like a I was I'm gonna say fire crotch. I know it's wrong. And women, if you're listening to me and you know I'm talking about, I'm sorry for ruining it. But it's something like fire crotch. And she's like, it's a super sharp pain, and and it electrifies you, and then all of a sudden the baby moved. And within 10 minutes, he was out. I I got him, he was he like came halfway out, and I just grabbed him, I pull him all the way out. I'm like, it's a boy! That's the story, but like this lady prayed. We were all holding hands, and then they just left and we delivered a baby at home, and everyone in Puerto Morales talks about him being a miracle baby because babies are not born at home in Mexico, it's 80% C-sections now because the system is just like the United States, they make a lot more money with uh cesarean sections, so um that that was our story, and my wife though, yeah, she desensitized me and got me prepared for what was good to come. But with baby number one, like I said, there's 20 something people in the room, it was wild. The doctor right away is just like, hey, we must inject your child with this thing. Well, what the fuck is this thing? Oh, it's an antigen that's going to alert your kid's immune system to the disease they haven't seen. What what the fuck's that mean? Oh, but you've left out one part that you didn't tell me about. Oh, there's also a metal adjutant that hyperactivates your kids' immune system that's been only tested on animals and not humans. And I didn't know any of that. And my wife at the time, she was totally against vaccines, but guess what I did for a job? I pushed vaccines for the military. That was my job. And so, of course, I got him vaccinated the first day and circumcised. And it's so funny because I look back, I'm like, dude, the doctors are the ones putting the kids at danger, they are the ones giving us very little details, and they're the ones who have perpetrated this generations of aggravated immune systems or ADHD, uh, autism, whatever, you know, however you want to look at those. And um I would say now when I talk to men like this, it's like you just see a healthier baby. You see how much healthier they are, how much happier they are, and when you do it the first time, you're just like, dude, that was amazing. It was a miracle. And I believe, and me and Nate, we talked about this the other day, how when the sperm enters the egg, there's now there's a spark. Science has proven there's like a spark. It's kind of like they get their soul. And same thing when the baby's born, you you're you're feeling this miracle, and and when the system is taking over and they're making all this chaos, they're intentionally taking that away, they're taking the all that power away, and and they're creating something that's scary when it's not really scary. Instead, it's something that's a miracle that God has given us. And um with that being said, what do you think of parents doing the exact same thing you did? Going into details and researching before the first kid, because that's seems to be one of the hardest things to teach men. Uh, I've had many men that are just like, hey, my wife's pregnant with the first baby. What should I do? What should I think? I'm like, bro, this is a loaded question. What would you tell them, Daniel?
SPEAKER_03:So, one of my favorite quotes from Jocko Willink is competence leads to confidence.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:You study stuff and you become educated and you learn um about it, and that will help you make a more informed decision. Yeah. But you know, you when I think about it this way, you know, Jack, you talked about feminism being related to this, and and we brought it up. My wife would say, Well, I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I believe she would say, a woman should give birth in the way that she feels the most safe and the most comfortable, right? Someone in survival mode or in a defensive place and to create life from that position, whether in birth or whether she's raising with a six-month-old or a two-year-old, if the mom is in a place like that, it's very hard to do the work to sustain or create or nurture life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So the medical world almost by nature has to have this arrogance and control because they can't allow risk. So the more control they have over it, that and that what that means is it's the less freedom that a mother can have. A home birth allows for the greatest opportunity of freedom. Um, the more you learn about it. But for a man, this is where I think uh you could really be a feminist if you want to be pro-women in a real way. Oh, I love where we're going. Jack you said this phrase, you had to trust the process. So now my wife has said, Daniel, as a man, you cannot control or dictate what happens. You have to have enough faith and belief, and the way God made the process and what I believe in, and in my choice, and what makes me feel safe to support me in this, even though it's out of your control. Because if there's one moment in a man's life where he feels a little helpless and a little scared, it's when his wife is giving birth. Yeah, it's out of your hands. So to me, trusting my wife and her body and her just her willpower and this the depth of spirituality that comes when a woman gives birth, like to me, that's probably one of the most feminist things that I have ever done in my life. So that to me, that's that's huge. And so I would never judge uh a family who chose to go the medical route, but I do think when you start to look at the alignment between that option and the other options, often you'll find that that process does not align with um feminism, with a woman's right to choose, with trusting her body and trusting the process or with faith. So yeah, that that's what I would tell guys like change your mindset, learn about things, and see what comes from having faith, like what that experience does for you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, dude, I I love how you put that because my wife actually and my wife is very, very feminine, and I love it because, and I've said this to Robert Bill and a couple other guys before, but her femininity calls to the masculinity in me and is like step up, right? And it's not a it's not an angry step up, it's just a that whole concept of safe, right? Um, and so it calls to me to be more of a man and be a stronger man and be more powerful as in the masculine, because the stronger her femininity is, the more is required on the polar opposite side of that. Um, and she's actually she's she's so she says to that she is a true feminist because she believes in the power of women, not that they can be like men, but that they should be fully woman. And I can say that she'd probably say it better than me, but what I love about that is exactly what you just said. It's believing in her like power as a woman that she's made to do that. How beautiful and amazing to be like, oh, my job is to make sure that she feels safe in that moment. Excuse me. But at the same time, trust, like you said, trust in the process, trust in what she's feeling. That woman's intuition of knowing what she needs, specifically in the birthing process or as she's becoming a mom. It's like God, like I always look at Genesis chapter two as God as is nesting. He's doing the nesting phase, right? He it like if you look at Genesis one, it says it talks about how creation happened. But what happens is in Genesis two, it's it's cosmos, and then it drops down to the world, down into the garden. Like it talks about how he's outside the garden, he makes man, and then he places him in the garden. But it goes from really wide out down to intimacy, and it's like God is nesting just like a woman does before she gives birth. So you can like know that she gets this beautiful, godly intuition that she just knows. I don't know how I know this, I just know it. And then, and she needs that. And even in the wild, not women but females that are pregnant, if they start to give birth and then they don't feel safe, they can stop pregnant, they can stop the birthing process, get to safety, and then give birth in safety. It's like a requirement. But I feel like our our medical system, and I don't really believe that the doctors and the nurses, I don't believe that they're trying to do that. I don't, I mean, I'm not there yet. Jack, you might be further down that rabbit hole than me. I feel like what's what they've been taught, what's been what they've been inundated with in their learning and all of that, has basically made them that way. And I agree with you. There has to be a there's a there's a height of of arrogance there, like, no, you do what we say, and you know, and I'm sitting here going, I pay you, so you work for me. That's how that works. And we have as on the male side of things, I feel like in order, if you're gonna go down the medical route, the man just has to be willing to go, no, you know what I mean? Like this is what my wife wants, this is what we're doing, because that's what she's requested, that's how she feels safe, that's how she's gonna give birth. And I know that there can be all sorts of things. We just had a friend have a baby and it went completely sideways for her. It was like she was like, This was the worst experience ever. And she's had rough experiences as well in the past. She's that was her fourth kid, and you'd think it would get easier and better, but this one was like the worst. And so not everything's gonna go the way you want it to. Uh, but for the most part, it's not, they're not sick, it's not a problem, it's the it's normal process of life, and they can do it at home or like in the place they feel safe because it like you said, man, I love how you put that, Daniel. It it's like it's how it giving birth in the feeling of giving of being safe and and and bringing life into the world and giving life basically from a place of safety and peace, not of fear and anxiety and and chaos.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Like I want to add on to you here there. Uh I like this, mate. Um all right, I agree. We are the support for our wives 100%. We need we need to make sure they're comfortable. I mean, you you really know that when she goes into labor, and your only job is to make her comfortable, right? It's like, what can I do? What can I do to help? I brought I brought a whole bath into our shower, and like it was so crazy. But, anyways, what do you do when your wife loses her own faith and she's pregnant, and she says, you know what? Guys, don't forget this is a conspiracy show. Um she says, you know what? I think I'm starting to believe the doctors, and I'm believing in Western medicine. And then she sees Trump come out and say, you know what? Maybe there's a problem with the autism counts, and maybe it could be the vaccines and Tylenol, and then your wife's out here pregnant saying, I'm against Trump, popping Tylenol. How are we gonna handle that now? Is men because now we're watching that live in the real world right now, and that stuff drives me crazy because it's like you shouldn't be a parent, you have no idea what it's about. To me, it's like we risk our entire lives for these children, and this lady wants to make a point, or ladies and many women it seems like came out and went after Trump, but he wasn't the one who came up with this information. This information's been a lawsuit for like four years now, with thousands and thousands of people saying Tylenol is causing autism or causing all kinds of other problems in our lives. And so Tylenol's been under scrutiny, but you know, a lot of these people who seem to be more communist um want to say give it to stick it to the man, I'm gonna take Tylenol and screw my kid, even if they know it's unhealthy. Like, what do you do then in this situation of nowadays? Or what do you tell a father soon to be a new father? How are you gonna coach him through that of his wife's just being so liberal or it's not even liberal anymore? That's like just communist, man, that they just want to go against a system fascist or something, man. That's it's wild, it's unbelievable to think that society has gotten to this point that you find something that's unhealthy and can make your kid better and healthier, yet you're like, no, no, no. I I want this, and I want to I know they don't want to harm their kid, there's no way they can want that. So what would you tell that uh new father to be?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so that's a really complicated question. Is you've got what you're bringing up is when husband and wife um are either not in alignment or they were, and they're hearing influences from social media or or whatever else that are causing them to fall out of alignment. Um, I mean, because you know my page, I'm gonna say like the family culture and the marriage, like being united on that front, it is like the most important thing. Um, like our whole society is built on uh, you know, families being what they are and being family centered, or at least it should be, to have the healthiest possible culture. So you've got all these things, what do you do? Um, and that that's gonna happen a lot because your wife has her own mind and she has a different opinion than you. And so the first thing I would say is, you know, always approaching it with humility. We just talked about that with like Western medical system that coming with arrogance um is never the right way to do it. You're always seeking understanding, you're always coming with humility. But you guys, as a as a couple, like there's some foundational beliefs that you typically share if you're gonna join as a union, right? And one of those you'll find out is do we have a fundamental belief that the body is broken and can't take care of itself? So we need as much intervention and help as possible. And that kind of gets to the belief that we're helpless, we only know these things, so we need experts to help us in every way. So that's teachers, that's doctors, that's government, that's everybody. And if you have that as a shared belief, that's gonna dictate where you go, right? But you'll probably be in alignment. But if you guys hold it that, no, we raise our children, our bodies are not broken. So unless there's something that happens, um, like we need a tumor taken out or we need a broken arm set, we don't intervene with the body's natural process. We trust the body. And look, I don't care if you are an atheist and believe in evolution, or if you're a Christian and believe the earth was made 6,000 years ago, both of those things are in alignment with the body having natural processes that it needs to heal and take care of itself unless something happens that's out of the ordinary, like, you know, you fall off a bike and break your arm. So if you align with that, and that's what touches both of your souls, if one of you gets out of it, then I think you just need to have honest but humble conversations about what are our core beliefs and why do we believe that as a family? Um, because your entire family culture is going to be based around your core beliefs and values, right? So we homeschool, we spend time together in nature, we eat really healthy foods. Like we could add$1,500 a month to our mortgage and get a much bigger house if we ate food that was less healthy than what we eat. So we believe in organic good foods and not fast food or crap, right? So we have family culture that's built around these things. Um, so if one of us wanted to go somewhere that was completely out of alignment uh with our beliefs, we would get together and say, like, what do we like? So my wife's name's Rachel, what do we believe we're here for? Like, what's our purpose? And then we could start to measure the social media messaging against what we really believe. Um so I'll say this most social media messaging, not all of it, but a lot of it, it's catered around money, attention, and political affiliation. Whereas you as a husband and her as a wife, you care about the hearts and the spirits of your family. So we measure everything against our our thought of what's best for our family's spirit, because we know there's ulterior motives in the messaging, and even the conspiracy couldn't be greater if somebody planned it. Like the way the algorithm works, yeah, versus the way messages are pitched, um, it all comes together in this beautiful conspiracy to get you going around these rabbit holes. So honestly, the first thing I might say to a husband is, what are you guys consuming content wise? How much time are you spending on your phone? Because if you're interacting with, liking, or even if you're leaving a negative argumentative comment on something that you don't agree with, the algorithm is going to spoon feed you that every day. And you're not, as a husband, you're not protecting the mental stability and spiritual stability of your household if you're not heavily focused on what are you consuming and what's coming in from the outside, right? Because we as dads, we don't have to fight off lions in other tribes hardly anymore. I know every now and then that might happen, but mostly our protection is rooted in the like the mental, the spiritual, and the emotional forces that come in. That's the first thing I would do with my wife is think it's my job to protect. So we're gonna look at the voices speaking to us and what our beliefs are and what we align with, and we're gonna start measuring these things, right? They've got to be really compelling to shake our core beliefs as a married union.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, that's huge. And I think it like you have to do that. That has to be a daily, weekly, like that has to be a constant thing. And it's I love it because that does actually it that's dad, that's you going against the narrative right there. The narrative is whatever's being pumped out. I like you were talking, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, it's totally true. Like, we yes, there might be a need to physically protect it's not as often as it was way back in the day. Uh, but now it really is that mental, emotional, and spiritual protection. And I as soon as you said that, all I could hear was uh growing up in the church, uh, we sang a song that was like, Oh, be careful, little eyes, what you see, be careful little ears what you hear. And it's like all of that, and and we didn't have social media like blowing up phones and kids like. Like our kids being able to be on it, uh, or anything like that. But it's the same thing for obviously for adults. We didn't have this kind of media then. And I look at it now, I'm like, oh man, that that song, that little kid song, is so huge for all of us right now. And I honestly think, Jack, to your point, that when if if your wife is that far to the opposite, one, she didn't get there overnight, right? So this is something that is way more, it's way deeper than just she started watching stuff and then went down a rabbit hole and then just decided, oh, this is because you're right, Daniel. It comes from that depth of our belief about those deep core beliefs about what our family is to do, who we are as people. And if they're going down that, if you didn't start that way and now that's the way she's going, she's been on, she's been on a uh a run through social media for a very long time, and you guys have not connected for for any length of time for any amount of depth at all. And and there needs to be a rewiring, almost like a you need to purge the social media at that point and go back to what is it that we want and we believe, because the world's gonna tell us, oh, you have to be like this, you have to think like this. This is the way things are supposed to be. But as men who believe that we're supposed to go against the narrative, and not just because we want to be contrarian, but because we want to be in a like you said, Daniel, in alignment with who we are supposed to be. We have to be able to go against the narrative, and and we have to be able to pull out all media, TV, radio, if if that's what is being fed in, then that's what's then that's what's being um, that's what we're gonna be dealing with, and we have to figure out how to feed it correctly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh that that's a really great point, uh, Nate. That was awesome. Um I I get into this all the time. Like if you don't intentionally create the culture of your family, um, and when I say that, I don't just mean the the husband, uh, you and your wife together, yeah, like culture is gonna create it for you, like the worldly culture. So you have to intentionally create a counter-cultural family if you're gonna have it. And so I always say, um, it's funny, I'm doing a thing on this tomorrow night. You have your beliefs and values, but then you have to have the rhythms, the customs, the habits, and the behaviors that bring those values to life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And if you've missed either one of those, then you kind of allow for these differences to come in and being watchful over where to divide start. Um, because I don't mind a husband or a wife disagreeing with each other. In fact, like that's that should happen because iron sharpens iron. Right. So things that were supposed to meant to draw us closer in the community often divide us. Um, and that's really hard because we've been trained. Here's another cultural thing. We've been trained that different opinions must mean division and must mean hate. Right. And whatever side of the Charlie Kirk um, I almost said the Charlie Kirk assassination you fall on, it is you see it becoming really clear that differing opinions must mean hatred. Um the reason I have posted about Charlie Kirk on my social media page is because I wanted to force people to say we have loved things that Daniel has said for 400 posts over two years, and now he has said something that we're not sure about. What do we do about Daniel? Do we have to say there are good people who teach good things that have different political views? Or do we just have to say Daniel's on that side, he's an enemy? We have to write him off. Because if they do that and they unfollow, which many did, then they have to now not hear any of the stuff that I say about how do you handle your son when he's having a temper tantrum and being disrespectful in a loving way and not just dominate your son, right? How do you do that? So in most of our marriages, things that should be complementary that drive us to be able to be better, that root out our insecurities and our flawed thinking end up causing divides in our marriage. So that's a great perspective to have when you and your wife disagree on anything how do we make this uh draw us closer in the community instead of driving a wedge in between us? Um you know, a culture is not gonna teach you in any way how do you listen with love and humility and seek understanding. It's only gonna say, this is irreconcilable differences, this is grounds for divorce, this can't be overcome. And uh that's a conspiracy against marriage, and that's that's some bull crap right there.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Oh, Daniel, uh, what I want to say here, what you're making me think of, is one first, your spouse is the biggest investment you're gonna make in your life. We all know that. And and I tell my little nephews who are like 22, 23, I'm like, dude, just make sure before you get married, that is the right one. I mean, that is such an important, important decision, might be it's the biggest decision because you're gonna make babies with this this woman, or hopefully you're gonna create a family. And um, if you get to that point where you're so opposite that that kind of conversation comes up, you know, you've you might have already failed a little bit, and you know, maybe you need to hang up the boots on that one and go retry with another person, mate. You know, my third marriage is my perfect marriage. So, anyways, uh the other thing I wanted to say is that we watched during COVID all these couples that were so on opposing sides. You'd see the ones wearing masks, or they'll be out and one's wearing a mask after COVID's over, and the husband's just there holding their hand. I'm like, dude, how are you guys so disconnected? Because that makes no sense. There's something we do at my house, Daniel. Um, this is very military, of course, but um we do an AAR every night, my wife and I. It's called an after action review of our day. So we just talk about the day. We sit and debrief each other, and we always try to give each other three pluses and three negatives if we can. Uh, that doesn't always happen, but it could be something as simple as like, hey, I saw you uh get a little hot with Destin earlier, and it seemed like you didn't really have to raise your tone. Instead, you could probably take a breath and really saw what was happening. And my wife will say something like that to me, but a man with humility and reflection will say, you know what, thank you. Thank you for helping me become a better father and a better man. And this is a common um occurrence that I talk to men about. They don't have conversations like this with their wives. And then if their wives correct them, they feel that they're being attacked. And I'm like, bro, you're not being attacked. Your wife wants to see you at your highest level. She wants to see the king that she married, and you're not acting like the king. Instead, you're acting like the child, and when she gives you positive or critical uh information about your parenting style or your just style of life, um you instead lash out. And a lot of I see a lot of men that lash out like a child, and it's like we need to sit back as men and say, you know what? I can take all the criticism from my wife that she can give me and I'm gonna use that to become a better man, instead of saying, I'm gonna take the criticism and cry about it because I'm a fucking baby. And that that's really what I see. And I'm just like, so when I asked that question, I was just like, dude, how many families do I see divided? I I in our homeschool pod, so we just started a homeschool pod, my wife and I here in San Miguel de Allende, and we've been here six weeks and we have 50 people in there now. Almost every single homeschool meetup, we have 20 to 30 people show up. Even yesterday's hike, we must have had 10 kids and 10 parents. And this hike was not easy. It was into a valley, into this gorge, it was beautiful. And just talking with dads out there, and you just see like the differences, and these are good couples. I love the couples that are in our homeschool group. But you just talk to them about like diet. I'm like, hey, dude, what's your diet like in your family? He's like, Well, you know, I I eat whatever I want, and then my kids eat their kid food. But why? Have you talked to your wife about just the diet? Because in my house, I'm very similar to you, Daniel. We have all organic, we're mostly fruit and meat-based, grass-fed meats, organic fruit, because we live in Mexico and fruit is in the abundance here, and so that's what we live off of. But most families I'm watching do eat differently. You see, the kids eat their kid food, the parents are separate on their food. One snacks at night, one doesn't snack at night, one drinks alcohol, one doesn't drink alcohol. So a big thing I just want to say to everyone out there is man, do the debriefing at night. I'm not gonna lie, it's helped my marriage so much. Uh, just doing these AARs at the end of the day and finding out exactly what my wife felt on the day. Did we win the day or did we lose the day? Were we great parents? Were we not? And you get to those kinds of questions, you're gonna find out you can tweak little things and become a better parent, a better man, a better husband, and just better overall for society. And I think that's where we need to get because the division is so vast right now. I mean, we're all watching it. And the Charlie Kirk thing, I really think that that was a great turning point for a lot of people because you really are seeing how can someone celebrate someone being assassinated, and that makes no sense at all to any good human that you're gonna celebrate anyone being assassinated. Don't get me wrong, there's some really evil people, and you know, I I think they should be assassinated, but with a wood chipper, and that's different. And they should go to the families of you know how I am, Nate. And uh so uh those people are evil though, and and I really truly believe that some of the people on top are very evil, but still, I wouldn't celebrate them if they got assassinated. I'd be like, fuck, that was wild. You know, hopefully pray for their family. That's the first thing that comes to my mind is like, pray for that family, man. That's horrible. It doesn't mean they're all evil, but Charlie Kirk was not evil. He was a man of the Lord, he spoke to people who were against him all the time. And how can you just then celebrate that? It makes no sense at all. Now I'm gonna pass it to Nate because I know Nate has some really good insight on this Charlie Kirk thing. I'll go to a deep hole, Nate. You know I will.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, dude. Well, I know I I honestly I love that you brought that up, Daniel, because I've I've felt the same thing, and that's been something that's been going back and forth. And I honestly felt like uh like I had people that are like, I'm so glad you showed your true colors because now I can unfollow you. And if you like for me, when I started this whole process in like I guess in 22, never in my life did I believe that they would gain the traction it gained and gain the following that it gained. I guess I just didn't assume that that would happen, but it really resonated with people. And as I went, one of the things I noticed though was when I would say things that were controversy, controversial, I would get a lot of pushback. And that actually caused me to go, I think I'm on the right path here. I think I'm doing the right thing, I think I'm going in the right direction. So honestly, when people do that to me, I go, I must be going down the right path because this is where, like you said, Daniel, and I never put it in perspective that way. I just thought there's a part of me, and it like that's it's actually a post that's coming um from me, but it it's uh there's a part of me that's like they don't know how do you how do you miss that on some of the things? I felt uh for part of for part of it, it was self-reflection. I was going, did I not share enough of who I am to let people know that if this is a big deal for you, you probably don't want to follow me. But I like how you put it, Daniel, because you actually are like, yo, I'm putting this up because now we can have continue Charlie Kirk's civil discourse. We can we can try that. And those who don't want to do that just unfollow and they miss out on all the other things that they need for them. It's it's it's it's interesting to me because I keep coming back going like there's so much that I have watched, and and now I'm just grabbing stuff from other people doing it because people are like, I, you know, I've even said, hey, send me the stuff that you said that shows that he's misogynistic or shows that he's racist or whatever it is. I'm like, just send that to me, let me see it. Very few people have done that. There's been a couple, and I'm watching them, and I'm like, yeah, all these clips are pulled out, like they're all pulled out of to make the sense that that person that made it wants to make. And I can do that with scripture. I mean, that's what people do all the time. How often have things been done and things gone awry because someone took one verse completely out of context and is like, oh yeah, this is the verse that means it means this, so I get to do that. You see it all over the place. You can do that with anything. And for a guy who's been so in the in the in the light of the world and and being and being followed by so many people and and it and being out in front of so many millions of people having conversations. And I love it. Somebody said he had the biggest microphone in the world and he handed it to his opponents to let them speak. And I'm sitting here listening to people say that he was you know evil, he was an evil man. Somebody said he was a vile man, and I'm like, I am really, and I'm the kind of guy that I'm gonna self-reflect pretty hard on that and go, How am I missing this? You know, I even have people that I went to college with that uh that I respected. They were friends of mine, and not that they're not friends now, but they they are friends of mine from then we were close then, and obviously we've not been in contact other than Facebook, so I don't know their life as well as I did when we all lived on the same campus. But I'm sitting here going, How are we so different in this understanding when we come from a place where like the uh the time where you're most influenced is a college, and we come from that same place. We went to a Christian college. We like some of these people were in. I I studied ministry, so some of these people were in pastoral ministries with me. You know, we're talking, we did ministry in the same church together, and I'm on the far other end of that, and you're saying this is like, oh, he's he's a horrible person. I'm so blown away by it. It's it's had me go, uh, you know, I've been reviewing everything in my head going, and it feels heavy. That's the thing, is that I feel the biggest thing I've felt mostly recent is just this weight to a level where I'm like, I feel like I don't want to, I don't want to talk anymore. If you wanna, if you want to feel that way, go for it. Like, I guess whatever comes, comes to you, and I'll just go down this path and whatever comes to me comes to me. But then I feel like it was the I think it was Ezekiel, and I could be wrong, you might be able to tell me this one, Daniel. But one of the prophets was like, if I I I feel like I just want to shut up, but if I if I shut up, the words of the Lord are the fire inside of me, it will consume me. Almost to the level where like I don't want to, I don't want to talk anymore. But if I don't talk, it'll burn me up and I and I won't, I'll go crazy that way too. It's almost like I'm I'm forced to speak out because if I don't, it will consume me, and I can't let that happen either. I think it was either Zika or Jeremiah that said that, but it's been one of those interesting things watching people on on the hard line other side not want to hear the good that you have to say simply because of this small disagreement. And I maybe it's not small. I don't know, you guys can speak to that too. Maybe it maybe it's not as small because it's actually fundamental and deep, it touches deep cords inside of us. And so it to me, I'm like, this just feels this feels like this should not be that hard to deal with, but because it it's striking all sorts of core depth beliefs, people can't let it go.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think it if it depends on on who the person is. Um, you know, my wife and I, when we moved back to Memphis from Los Angeles, um, so I intentionally moved. Memphis is very racial, it's very segregated. Um, neighborhoods, wealth, uh, school districts, like everything is segregated, and you know, white people have the benefit um over African Americans, even though we're a 60% African-American city or it's somewhere around there. So when my wife and I moved to Memphis, we moved into a low-income African-American community. So I could start a business there that would employ men from the neighborhood. Like that's what my heart was for. Um, it was we were very into racial justice and using the gifts that I had been given, or even the advantages I had been given for people who were less advantaged. Um and in Memphis, because that is predominantly the black communities, like that's where we wanted to go. What are the most marginalized communities that we could go into? So that was that was really important to us. Um, and then you know, we we've learned a lot uh about how to do that well since then and uh how to actually empower and support people. But when you know Charlie Kirk comes on and starts saying things like he's anti-DEI, and then a lot of the stuff that was taken out of context, the first thing people are gonna relate it to is that person that they love that they know was would be harmed by that statement at surface level. Right. I I got into a very it was a tough conversation with a woman who I know, who I care about, but um her husband's paperwork is in process, and she knows that Charlie Kirk said she that he that her husband's a criminal and should be sent back, which would destroy their family, right? So to her, a conversation around that, it is really personal. It seems she feels hated and like someone would destroy the family and call someone that she loves dearly and knows to be a good man, a terrible thing, right? So I know it's deeply personal for her, right? But I fall on different sides of this thing when I'm looking at it objectively. So when I look at Charlie's Kirkview on DEI, with my background on knowing racial injustice, I want to have this kind of, I would have loved to have debated Charlie, but my belief is that he his beliefs were based in what is most uplifting and what is the greater good of the African American community in the United States. You don't have to agree with him on it, but I know from everything he said about other races and immigrants that he believed in the greater good. But what was so where I feel like he had courage was he was willing to be misunderstood and to say that and willing to have people hate him for things that weren't true. He's like, I'm gonna say something that's hard for people to hear, I'm gonna challenge their narrative. They're gonna tell me I hate people that I'm actually trying to support. Yeah, right. So I also happen to agree, and you guys might disagree with me. I I agree with Charlie's thoughts on DEI that they're that they're enabling and that there's almost a racist undertone in saying that we need to promote a certain race over others when they don't have merits um because we want it to be equal across the board. I think that's lazy. I think no, the real work you need to do is to take that people, whether it was white people or black people or whatever color, you need to get them to become just as um capable, right? So well, I'm saying that wrong, they are just as capable. You need to give them the ability to have the same level of competency, the same skill level. So you don't just hand it for free because you're skipping over the real work of no, how do we take people who are just as capable and just the same amount of potential and help that potential, right? And so that's what I think really addressing racial injustice looks like. Um, so I agreed with Charlie on DEI, but that doesn't mean I'm a racist. It means I think uplifting other people is different, but I would believe that no matter who it was, because one day it might be flipped. One day it could be that a group that's in the minority or sorry, in the majority now, is in the minority, and the concept would remain the same. Um, I disagreed with Charlie on some of his thoughts on does systemic racism from the past still affect people today? I felt like he leans towards it not. And I was like, I definitely think that it does, and there's a lot of work to be done there, but it's the process of what is healing that look like. Um, and I honestly I think liberals and conservatives have both missed the boat on that. Um, one just wants to slap a band-aid on it, one often wants to deny it. I'm like, I think somebody needs to acknowledge that no, it's still there and there's work to be done. And I actually heard Charlie say this um in an interview that a good process has yet to be proposed on how to address these things. So I know the man uh from what I've heard, like the man's heart was in the right place. And I love to talk to people about it and say, hey, you can't just write me off. You have to consider my opinion that's different if we're gonna build the best road going forward, right? So um, and I think that's what Charlie believed in. You know, he said that like when when discussion ends, civil war begins, right? Right, and we're seeing that all over the place. So uh anyway, that's my that's my splurge on that.
SPEAKER_00:I love that, Daniel. That's a great take, and yeah, you you know, I really do believe what he did in pushing the narrative forward to get us all aligned together and work together is the is the right call. That's where we need to go. And I mean, even us three, how many times have we said stuff that it could be totally taken out of context? I mean, my wife takes things out of context all the time. I try to get something out and she's blowing up. I'm like, what's going on? You know, so it's like it's so funny that people get so raged by this guy who all he did was speak. Literally, all he did was speak. That's it. And we're gonna go and shoot this guy. And it's crazy um that people would even think that that's an okay uh outcome, and that we've got that far in society that you want to shoot someone for having a totally different display or different belief than you do. And it's like, what happened? Where do we come from? And the people who are doing it have just like lost their minds all the way that you can't even speak racial division or anything like this, which is one of my very favorite topics, Daniel. That's why I want to stay on it really fast. My wife is black, my kids are mixed. You people have called me racist online all the time. It happens all the time. And I just make sure I tell my wife when we go lay down, I'm like, hey, remember, I'm racist. And uh you know, that that's a that's a very complicated situation. And I believe that the government and people that run it above the government have made it more muddy water than they could possibly do because that's the way to keep it divided. Um, I really think that's what happened more than anything. And my wife will agree 100% with me that you know, she'll watch her sister who who lives in Seattle and she's like, DEI all day. And we're like, really? Really? You don't think anything should be based off character and maybe like actually traits and what you're able to give to companies? No, you don't we don't believe that? Okay, all right. Well, you know, we'll just move on from that then. And then we go to the next argument, it's like, well, you got it better because you have a white husband. Really? Really? I was just a military guy. I wasn't like, what are you talking about? I grew up in the ghetto, you guys grew up in the suburb. Totally different lifestyle. Yeah, I had no choice of coming out of the ghetto. So it's just, and that's the funny part with me and my wife. We have a real weird dichotomy that she grew up in this nice rich suburbs outside of Chicago. I grew up in the ghetto in Cleveland, and even when my wife goes home to Cleveland, she's like, How did you guys fit in this house? How'd you grow up here? You know, it's like totally different worlds, and yet we love each other so much, we're best friends, and there's and when you just talk about like how we put the work in, again, we're gonna go to Jock Wa Willock for another quote of discipline equals freedom. People are lazy, people are lazy to research things, look at both sides, look at argumentative conversations, and actually like walk away and be like, oh wow, they really awakened some spots in me that I didn't realize were there. So the problem is people aren't having conversations. I do believe what you said earlier about people are just scroll doom scrolling or whatever the hell it's called, and they're just their feed is just the exact same thing over and over, and so it's just manipulating them, and they don't even realize that they're just being brainwashed and it's just non-stop doctrine, doctrination, I meant over and over and over until we get to a point where their their angel side is not even working anymore. You know, I like me my son likes to say that all the time now at five years old. I have an angel and a devil over here. He doesn't even know what the devil is, he doesn't even know what that is, really. And uh he's like, you know, this guy always wants me to do bad things. I'm like, yeah, of course he does, you know, but listen to the good side, listen to the good side. And it's like when you hear the same thing over and over, that voice just disappears. It gets pushed so deep inside that there's no reasoning with these type of people anymore. And that's like part of my problem at the moment where I'm like, you know what, just fuck it, fuck it, man. I I can't take this anymore. I can't even hold space for you to be in the same location as me. I don't want to have the conversation. There's no change in your mind anymore. You've gone so far to one way that you're not even open to reasonable conversations, argumentative conversations, even the other side. Like, it's crazy when people are just like they see Trump and they just say, Oh, fuck racist, sexist, bigot. They just start throwing words out. Really? Do you know him? Oh, wait, you never met Trump. Oh, okay. The guy's been famous his whole fucking life. Of course, he's gonna have every bad thing in the world. I'm not Trump, a huge Trump person, even. I didn't vote for him the first two times. I I vote, I vote independent almost every time because I like to throw my vote out. And um I was thinking the same thing.
SPEAKER_01:I'm like, no, what? Just throwing it away.
SPEAKER_00:Bro, I always throw it away. Except for this last time, I'm like, there's no way I'm like a retard come in. And so um that that happened also. But it's just, I mean, when do you get to enough is enough? And that that that's kind of like how I feel. And when I listened to this morning, I was working out, I was listening to Real AF, Andy Priscella, and you know, he had the chat open for his podcast now on YouTube, and which we need to figure out one day, Nate. I love that, yeah. Yeah, I love it too. And so um, they're just talking about when's the war start? You know, when uh is it time to fight back? When is the time to fight back? When's time to stop the innocent bystander? When is it time to just when someone gets in your face to fucking put them straight and say, no, you are wrong? And it's time for us to speak out. And I think there's no way we can change until men start getting courage again and saying their truth and saying, you know what, I think you're wrong. I'm not I'm not the innocent bystander anymore. I'm gonna tell you exactly what I think. I think you're fucking lost your mind and you need you need to, you know, change some things in life, and here's where. But I'm not saying be competitive about it either. I'm just saying like we need to have these conversations and call people out. That that that's what I think.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah, I I actually come, I want to come back to something that you said, Daniel, when you were talking about when you were talking through all that. I love it. Uh here's the thing that I I I actually love. I I didn't agree with everything that Charlie Kirk had to say either. But one of the things I felt like was like the like when you look at the core concepts that all of his stuff came from, one obviously coming from that Christian background of like like God created us, right? But he really focused on family and men specifically. And I really think that that right there, it's like one of the things I saw was he was talking with someone and it had to do with the DI DEI, but he specifically said he was talking about fathers in the home and how huge of a deal that is in regards to poverty, um, like teenage pregnancy, drug use, jail time, like all of this stuff. And I don't think that that's that's cross-racial lines. It doesn't matter what what what race or or anything like that that it is, if the father's in the home, the children have a so much of a higher level opportunity for success. And when he's not, that's where we see things fall. And so from my standpoint, I keep coming back to this whole concept of dads against the narrative. And I always come at it like I can't, I can't take dads, don't babysit out of who I am. So it's like I keep coming back to this call to men, and that's what I see more and more from that standpoint. And I think that's why I'm having such a hard time with why people hate uh why people hate Charlie Kirk so much, why, why the why why you have gotten what you've gotten, I've gotten what I've gotten. Um, or why we're seeing that is I I keep coming back to it going, yeah, our as men, we have. To have a standard and hold a line and then live that line. Like right now, we're looking at like three guys on this podcast talking who have a standard and who live that way and are deciding to raise our sons and daughters that way. Daniel, you have four sons, you have only sons?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so I'm the only one with daughters on here. Uh, but at the at this time, right? We'll see if we're having more what you know. We know Jack's planning on having more. Um, but it's like the way we raise our children and how we live is so important, but it also sends out this beacon of light to the world calling men to rise up. And I think that that what's cool about the masculine is that when we see a guy holding a standard and doing stuff, I think about all the guys that that we've even mentioned on this podcast, you've got Jocko Willink, you've got uh Andy Frisella, there's so many guys that when you see like when we as men see other men holding a line and holding a standard, there's something in us that calls us to that to that same thing. Like, there's more inside of me. I need to do more, I should be doing more. I mean, honestly, when I look at even Charlie Kirk, I'm like, the dude was 14 years younger than me and has lived like lived 10 times the way I've lived already. It's crazy. And I'm like, okay, I literally looked at my wife and was like, damn, I gotta get my shit together. Like this guy lived such a huge life. I am not doing enough. But I think that that's something that as men who are going against the narrative in this in this world, going against culture to actually be what we understand men to be. And then our lives get to call that out. We're just we're just three guys who actually have the ability to actually also be a mouthpiece. Um, so we live it, and then we actually have the ability, and we've gained the the following, and or just have the ability to communicate it out loud that that this is how men should be, or this is what we believe men should be. And then they get to see that not only is that a standard we say we hold, it's also one that we live by. And I think that that is actually an a way to raise culture in a way that is also against the narrative.
SPEAKER_03:Man, let me speak to that. That was awesome. Um, so here I'm gonna tell you this as goes the father, goes the family, as goes the family, goes churches and communities, as goes churches and communities goes the nation. It all comes back down to the men and how you lead your home. And I believe that 100%, no matter what anybody tells me um about anything. Because I've seen women try to lead the home. Strong women, also my mom was one of those women because my dad was a drug addict. And it's always the case that she gets tired, she becomes a shell version of herself that's harder than she needed or should have ever been, and it's like pulling teeth to get the family along and it crushes her soul eventually. Yeah, but if a man will lead, almost always everyone else will follow that and will go with them, and he will inspire his wife to lead. And a man has a greater capacity to inspire his wife and kids if he's following than the wife does if the man is the one who is being reluctant. That's not a hundred percent gospel. I know other situations a noble and good wife has inspired her husband, absolutely, but in general, it is the men who have the greatest power to do that. Um, so I yeah, I agree with that uh a hundred percent. So yeah, I'm glad you said that, dude. And you know, I do men's coaching. The number one reason men come to it, I think, or the number one problem, even if they don't know that's why they come, is passivity in men. They are not sure how to fit in their home because they go to work and their wives are on point, right? It started when they were pregnant because their wives were the ones who were caring for the baby and it never shifted. Their wife became the predominant homemaker, person who takes care of the child. And Nate, I know this is your wheelhouse with dads on babysit, but men never know how to find their place. So they're just kind of, and I don't want to, I mean, I don't want to shame them, but in this sort of wimpy, weakling, like, hey, can I help? What should I do? Can I be involved? And there's they need either validation from work or approval from their wife. They have no backbone or intrinsic sense of worth and confidence, and so everything in their life is oriented around the the approval that they get from others, like they need that to know they're of worth. And man, does it crush a wife to have to be the source of her husband's worth and purpose in life? And then we raise sons who have no idea what it looks like because a father couldn't show or articulate what it is to be a strong man in and of himself, yeah. And that continues to cripple everything. So it goes back to what I just said, like it starts with the father, the family goes where the father goes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So my whole ministry or like an idea of speaking to men to me has only been further influenced by um, you know, all the stuff that's going on in the world right now. Uh it's it's absolutely huge. I feel like if if we could reclaim the true hearts of men and all the stuff that we've talked about, like that they could stand up for truth, but not fall into being tyrants or assholes when they do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And that's what Charlie did really well. Even if I disagreed with him completely and thought, dude, this is immoral and wrong, your opinion right here. I'm like, he's gonna speak his truth and he's going to use logic, he's gonna be calm, he's gonna be sympathetic, and he's gonna discuss it. And it takes a lot of strength, and you cannot do that as a man. If the opposing opinion challenges your sense of self-worth, like your wife saying to you, Jack, like you said, hey, I think you got too hot with our sons earlier. If your reaction as a man is, oh, you're saying I'm a bad father, that I'm a failure as a man, that I can't hack it. And so you either get a pity party or you attack your wife and say, You're not perfect with the kids either. Why are you judging me? If you're so weak that that those are your only two avenues, like the weakling and the tyrant, and you can't show up as that king, like you said, and just say, babe, you're right, and I've got to work on this. I need to apologize to my son, and I gotta show up better tomorrow. If men can't do that, then civilization, culture like it crumbles.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right? And you see that in Charlie's conversations with kids. Man, when he would really poke at him and say, Let's challenge what you're bringing to me, they fall apart and then they attack him personally. And I'm like, I would love for you guys to have come back at Charlie with something of substance and really challenged what he had to say if you disagreed with it, because that would have made us all better. I wish those were the kids I was watching. Yeah. Right? And uh, it's very rare that you see that you see one man holding for truth and trying to calmly explain, and other people being aggressive and not attacking his opinion. Um, sorry, I said that wrong. They don't attack his behavior and character, they're trying to attack his opinion and then attach characters and behaviors to that opinion, right? And in our house, we have a rule, we're getting onto our kids. Sorry, I know this is a long rant, man.
SPEAKER_02:No, you're good, you're good.
SPEAKER_03:We address changeable behaviors, we do not shame character. So I don't say to my son, you're so lazy. Don't say stuff like that to him. I say to him, son, you want to be a good, hardworking man, but you not want to do chores, right? That's laziness right there. And I know that's not the kind of person you want to be. So let's knock these chores out because that's the kind of man we are, right? I'm like inviting him into the man he wants to be and just showing him how his behavior in the moment is not in alignment with who we are as as gross men, right in the gross family.
SPEAKER_00:So anyway, Daniel, I'm I love that rant. That was awesome. That was fantastic. And you know, we do a very similar thing, we do not attack character in our house. If I if I do and I slip, my wife catches me every time. But my wife is on me a hundred percent. But she also, you know, and again, I always blame feminism as Nate knows. When women grew, you know, it's true though. The women came into the household and then they decided, you know what, I could be the breadwinner, I could run the house, I could do this, I could do everything. And it's like, no, that but you're not even in your feminine anymore. Right. So you're taking away the man's masculine, also, and so then it puts the man in a real weird position. And I've seen it on many families, but same thing with my son, and he starts doing something, and I'll I we're big on Jocko Wilnix's uh warrior kid books. Love them. We're on our second iteration of them. We read them every single night. And my son does jujitsu, he's number one in jujitsu, he's the captain right now, and um I'll say something more like this like yesterday, he didn't want to clean up his gear. And we use the exact same terminology and verbiage that Jocko uses. I'll say, Hey, did you take care of your gear? And it's much easier for me because I am ex-military, right? Retired military is easy, it's all the same jargon. And I'll say, Did you take care of your gear? You didn't. All right, you owe me 10 burpees, and now tell me what a warrior kid would do. And and he'd say, Warrior kid would have cleaned up dad. That's right. And would dad have cleaned it up? Absolutely, I would have too, man. I would have too. And I just put myself in, I show him what I do as a man also. And when I fail, I also I try to give him those lessons too and be like, man, look, you watch dad go through this, and I was wrong. I apologize. You know, again, you started a conversation early on, Daniel, about humility, and it's it always goes back to humility. But I just want to say, I know uh Nate, you need a role. I just want to say, Daniel, thank you so much for being here with us today. And guys, thanks for listening to Dad's Against the Narrative. Real dads, real voices, real change. Let's go. Nate, over to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, actually, Daniel, I know you you do Vince Coaching, you're doing a lot, and I'm I'm really I got to watch you rise. It's kind of been cool because I connected to you and I don't know how many followers you had, but it was it wasn't a lot, and then it just was like and you blew up, which I love, man. I'm like mad hype for that because uh you deserve it because of the work you do and the kind of guy you are. So I'm glad for that. I'd really like people to know where they can find you. I know at Honest Fatherhood, but if you'll give them where they can find you so they can connect with you, that'd be great. Uh, because we want to make sure that uh people hear your voice voice more.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um, it's just on Instagram, it's honest fatherhood. I I've got too many kids to do other platforms, so I'll put everything out on Instagram. Um, they can go on there and you know, I've got a lot of stuff for free on there that people can look at. There's a newsletter they could sign up for. I'll run men's cohorts, it's like a 10-week series on being a dad, specific for dads raising boys. Um, I've got a new program that's five weeks coming out about building family culture in the home as husband and wife, uh, which is going to be really cool. Um, but yeah, the first um step to getting connected to me and my message and what I do is just honest fatherhood on Instagram. And uh yeah, dude, thank you guys for having me. This was a really fun conversation, guys.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've I've enjoyed it. I'm glad we definitely and we've said this to every guy we talked to, but we and we've known you guys, so it's fun. But we got to have you back. I'm sure that there'll be plenty more we can talk about. And uh but seriously, thank you so much for coming out and and hanging out with us. Uh guys, if you want to connect with with Daniel Gross, you go to at honest fatherhood. You'll find him on Instagram, and you can catch him all his things from there. So we're excited for we're excited for you, the voice you're bringing to men. Thank you so much for what you're doing. Um, yeah, Jack, anything else for you?
SPEAKER_00:That's wrap. Guys, have a great day.
SPEAKER_01:All right. Thanks, man. We'll see it.
SPEAKER_00:See you guys.