GROUNDED Live - 2026: Gavin Fisher - Stacking Enterprises

Welcome to a new season of GROUNDED Live. This season features presentations recorded at GROUNDED Festival 2026, held over two memorable days on Yan Yan Gurt West Farm in Victoria, Australia. Each episode captures the ideas, stories and practical knowledge shared by the farmers, researchers, chefs, practitioners and thinkers who came together to explore healthier landscapes, healthier food systems and healthier communities.

 In this presentation, New Zealand farmer Gavin Fisher explores how diversifying enterprises can strengthen the resilience of a farm business. Sharing examples from his own organic farming system, Gavin discusses how combining complementary enterprises can improve profitability, reduce risk and create healthier landscapes without needing to expand the farm.

GROUNDED Festival is a cross between a farming conference and a food festival, held on a different farm each year. Every festival is unique, celebrating the people, landscapes and food of its host region through an inspiring line-up of speakers, local producers and hands-on learning.

With multiple stages running concurrently, GROUNDED brings together science and technology, ancient wisdom and fresh thinking. It provides a respectful place for lively discussion, an audience as interesting as the speakers, and an excellent menu of local food, drinks and music, all on a beautiful, regeneratively managed farm.

Each year, we record many of the presentations and make them freely available as the GROUNDED Live podcast. We hope you enjoy the conversations.

Thanks for listening, and if you enjoy this episode, we'd love to welcome you to a future GROUNDED Festival.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:05

G'day there. I'm Matthew Evans, and I'm the founder and curator of the Grounded Festival. And what follows is the Grounded Podcast. Now, this is the audio that we capture from the speakers in the tents live on the days. Unedited, and I hope you enjoy it. The modern farm tends to look like a specialist farm. You do one thing or a couple of things and try to do them really well. But to build in resilience, a lot of farmers, particularly if that's sort of small to medium size, are looking at how you can stack enterprises, have more than one thing going at once. Gavin Fischer is an organic farmer from New Zealand. He's got egg-laying hens, he's got a dairy farm. He's a really great uh speaker and a deep thinker. And I brought him over because I loved his attitude. It's a little bit left of field, and how he looks at how he can build resilience within his landscape without having to buy it extra land. Anyway, this is called Stacking Enterprises with Gavin Fisher.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

What a fantastic morning we have here. Um hi everyone, my name's uh Robert Pekin. I'm the host of Blackwood Tent for the Day. Um, and the first speaker of uh cab off the rank this morning is Gavin Fisher, uh Kiwi from the North Island, a dairy farmer, but he does many other things. Um who went to his session yesterday? There we go, Ryder. You've got a you've got a you've got a fan club. Fantastic. Um so for those of you don't know Gavin, I think third generation dairy farmer, third, third generation property um on the North Island. Um uh is practicing lots of things on the farm, so seeing the farm more as a landscape than a farm. A lot of us traditionally just see the farm as a farm, and that's what it does. But uh you've seen it in many different ways. So um I'll hand over the microphone to Gavin. We're gonna go for about 15 or 20 minutes where Gavin gives us a bit of an idea of what's what what he does and how he does it, and then we'll go into QA and make it really interactive as possible. So get your questions ready, and uh we want to make this a really good deep dive on the last day. Thanks, Gavin.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

Okay, um yeah, when I got asked to uh do this, like stacking enterprises, uh enterprises, I sort of thought, what are they talking about? And um so I haven't really put too much thought into it, but I when I woke up this morning I thought you need to get your shit together and uh and sort of think about this. So um I don't normally have notes, but I've got a few here just to look at now and again. Uh because I I I can hardly understand my own writing anyway, so I don't normally put anything down. But anyway, uh what I what I'll try and do to start with is just give a little bit of overview because I did speak yesterday, but you know, quite a few of you weren't there, just to give you a picture of um where I'm coming from and what I'm talking about. So um as you just heard, I'm um yeah, uh Kiwi from over there, and uh we we're farming in the central um or just out of central um North Island in the Waikato, and um yeah, it's pretty good country around us to be fair. Our um annual rainfall is about 1100 mils, which would be nice if we got that in the summertime, but we could get most of that in the winter time sometimes. So um when you hear people quote their rainfall, um it it doesn't necessarily, depending when they get it, it's the biggest effect. And uh I quite often have uh mates ring up and ask, oh, how much rain did we get? And I always say all of it. And um, and I'm not being smart there, uh what I mean is the ground actually does soak it up, absorb it, doesn't run off, and it's like a big, big sponge now because of our biological activity that we got going. So um, yeah, we've been certified organic for 26 years, which actually doesn't define um the organic food production system. What that actually means is I meet market access regulations into into different organic markets. For instance, we're certified to America, we're certified to Korea, China, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, you know, Europe, and and places like that. I have to meet all those um market conditions. And um it is really easy to do for me because I have next to no inputs. Um uh we don't put and and with what's going on at the moment with the fuel and with fertilizer and stuff like that, that's sort of to a big degree bypasses me in aspects to inside the gate because we don't um we're not putting anything on like that. We're still growing good good grasses and uh well, herbage and everything, and um it's not impacting us financially. And that was part of when we set the system up. I wanted to future-proof the family farm without it having to get bigger. That doesn't future-proof things, I don't think. That's just denial sometimes. We just get bigger and bigger and try and clip the ticket on a margin on bigger things. So um I had a bank manager come to me one time and um he was because you know, bank managers are always trying to sell your money and uh he would want me to buy some land next door. And I said to him, Look, you know, why would I go out when I can go up and I can go down? So my concentrating has been on uh the ecological, biological, regenerative, whatever title you want to give it. I don't like titles. Um it's this it's an overall system of what's best for the land, what's best for the animal, and what's best for the ecology. So I try and set up ecologies, foster them, nurture them, and then basically I'm farming them if you like. So I think sometimes they farm me, but that's that's sort of how I've set it set it up. So the places it's I've been planting trees on the place for uh since I left college, so yeah, 46 years ago, and um all those trees had to tick multiple boxes, and um those multiple boxes are actually what I'm going to be talking about today and aspects to some of the um layering of things of what we've done. So it's been it's been quite a long journey. Um you know the the the the cows basically they're just cruising around like the the forest floor, if you like. They're the bovine biological harvesters, um, and that's what they are, and they don't need petroleum in them. They've got four good legs, and I didn't want to become the cow's legs, but you know, I didn't want to be bringing the food to them. I thought, well, nah, they've got four legs, so I only got two, they can use theirs. So um that's the approach I took. And um, and it works really well, and it's a cheap system, you know. They're very efficient eaters. And um now actually the the um vertical grazing as well, so they're grazing up about this high. Um, and because there's trees around every paddock and trees in the paddock and the under plantings, they are that's a grazable wall that I wouldn't have had once before. So that's part of the intense, it's it's really inorganics. Uh people don't like the word intensification, but that's what I'm doing. I'm intensifying um but in an ecological way. So all that area, if you fold it out around those paddocks, that's a big um grazable wall that I wouldn't have. And the benefit of that is those roots from those trees, from those shrubs, they're going down many, many more meters. They are shopping many, many more meters down than what the pasture is. Although that we've got a real diverse pasture, we've got taproot plants in there and all sorts, they cannot get down uh as deep as any of those trees. So diversity is a real key for me. So those trees, their root systems are getting into different zones and nutrient recycling is what you call it, and and and and bringing up different minerals, nutrients, and stuff through leaf fall and also through um the cow's grazing and of course putting it through their digestive system and popping it up the other end, which then becomes food for something else, and and then it just goes on and on. And um, pretty much every time something goes through a digestive system, if it's quality going in, it gets better, not worse. Um, and that sounds really silly. Like, you know, but I'll use an example, you know, if you had a um had a roast dinner and you got that and you threw it round a lemon tree, and then you got a roast dinner and you gave it to a pig and it ate it, and you collected what came out the other end, and you threw that round a uh uh a tree, which one would grow the most? The one that's been through more of a digestive system and is broken down already. And if the and if and if nature wasn't set up like that, this plant would be stuffed because that's how it works. So it's an upward spiral, not a downward spiral. Biology is very, very clever. I think we need to start learning a lot from it actually. And that's what I do. I observe it, and um and it's very I'm I'm sort of part of it now, you know. I I was I've been on the farm 62 years. I've I've walked at bare feet, I've laid down on the paddocks, and you know, just on a post. You know, I've done all you know, I've just done all the all the things that kids would do on a farm, and and I I'm I'm I'm amongst it. So, but but anyway, part of the part of uh the system was to, as I say, to um have it more sustainable. And I and I wrote a little thing down this morning, because I knew I wouldn't remember it, and it only came into my head this morning while I was having a coffee. So um basically what I've been trying to do is it build resistance through um diversity in the business while not compromising my beliefs or the ethos of what the farm and I believe in. So I want to have a uh and the stacking enterprise parts coming now, um I want to have a business that's that's really thrive thriving, but I don't want to be raping the system if you like, and and I want it to be sustainable, and I want all those other enterprises that get stacked in and layered in to actually work in a symbolic relationship and um and have those interconnections with the the rest of it. So every part is actually enhancing the other part. So with with things like that, you know, um I launched my own brand. Actually, if you've got um Instagram, if you go to Off the Planet Organics, um that's that's a registered brand of mine now, and um little logo which is a bit out there of an alien and bits and pieces, but you'd see it if you go into it. Um and I'm sell it, so I'm selling um free-range eggs through that. And and so that the the um well we call them chucks, might call them chickens, I don't know. But the the the chucks they're laying the eggs, they're totally free range, we've got about 80 and 90 of them. Um because I don't want to go too big. But they're they're cruising around, they're scratching, they're part of the they're part of the system, they're spreading the dung, they're eating some of the um insects, uh, and uh which if they get out of hand aren't beneficial. But at the same time, it's another income stream, and that's that's sort of the layering of things. So it's not just the eggs, um, it's the meat. And that's just one aspect of of another another income stream where that is actually part of of the system at the same time. And then a lot of the trees that are planted are um fruit trees, nut trees, you name it, you name a tree, avocado is peaches, pears, plums, apples, rah-rah. Um and all of those are also part of the system and aspects to I want to have an in I want to have a um a seasonal income at the same time. And um those things come ready at different times of the season. But also I need food. My my whole system's based off biology, it's based off um insects being the vectors that are transporting some of the beneficial fungi and all that sort of stuff around. So when those trees are flowering, that's food for now the nectar-feeding insects. When some of that, um, and and I don't mean I don't mind sharing some of the fruit. I'm sharing some of the foliage and some of the branches because the cows are browsing those. They're being held back so they can't destroy them, but they're still browsing those. And some plants uh um some of those fruit trees actually high in different nutrients and and minerals. So that's also then getting eaten by the cow and also getting dumped out the back end and getting shared with the shadow rooting pasture that didn't have access to it. So there's a whole ecological thing going on. But I've got a cash crop and one that comes ready at different times. So that's sort of um making the farm more resilient. So if one part of the operation takes a dip, say maybe the milk price is down or something like that, you can crank up the other side of it. And the other part of it is I don't have to. If if I don't if I don't want to harvest those things, it doesn't matter. It doesn't affect the rest of the business. It still has a positive effect on the totality of what we're doing. Because as I say, the main key is on on biology and um setting up that ecology. So I um just because I didn't think I was busy enough, I put in a bit of an orchard this and an orchard this year of about 500 apple trees because I I was lucky enough to get them given to me actually. Some of those apple trees uh they're double grafted, but I know how to graft, so I'm gonna put three or four different graftings on them. So that'll extend the the um the season out for those. So that you know the last apple will be the granny smith in New Zealand, and then we'll we'll go at the beginning there and red delicious, golden delicious, and splendid, and and a lot of other apples. And um, once again, they're all flowering, so they've they're part of the for the nectar and stuff for the bees and for the insects, and some of those things falling on the ground just don't rot. It's a food source, it's a full dinner plate hitting the ground. And it's the same with some of the leaves from the trees. We've got a subsoiling worm that comes up that mixes the the subsoil with the top soil, and it's coming up because it it actually digests leaves and stuff like that. If I didn't have those trees, and if I didn't have that litter, they wouldn't be there. So then I wouldn't have that nutrient highway that goes down for the for the hole that it created, and uh the the the slime on that worm, which is 46% nitrogen actually, um and it wouldn't have had that encouragement for the roots to go down. So now I'm getting deeper deeper root systems and and also um more tolerant to droughts because of those deep root systems. That's without getting into that's not on topic today, more yesterday, into the shade aspects of the trees and and the cooling and the respiration of the of the trees with water and all the rest of it that goes on with it. So um the other part, how are we going for time there? Oh have I? Cool. I've made a small right um and also so I said um yeah, I put that orchard in, and um my wife thinks I'm nuts, and I keep reminding her that when she met me I was nuts, so you know because I put put the headload on and work through the night sometimes just to get time. But um I didn't want to so back back to that stacking enterprise. Um I didn't want to be um mowing that orchard and maintaining that orchard myself because I've got enough other stuff to do to be honest. So I threw a heap of ducks in there. Well, I read them up actually. I've got duck eggs and I put them under the banties and and I got them to do it for me because they're a lot better at it, you know. Um better mother than me. Um so I put them in there because you know, if anyone's had ducks, they they crap a lot, so that's good for the fertility. And they take out some of the um problem um pests and bits and pieces, snails and slugs and stuff. They're not like my um because I did think about putting chucks there, but I thought then I thought, hang on a minute, chucks scratch, so they're gonna scratch at the root systems. And then I was watching this chuck one time and it was and it was sort of I don't know, it was jumping caught, it was going jump, you know, jump like this, um, and up and getting fruit. And I thought, nah, nah. Actually, I looked at it and thought, and it sort of reminded me of being in the mosh pit and the constants bouncing up and down, to be honest. But yeah, it's um it it that's why I went with the duck. So it's about understanding how the functions of of animals work too, to a degree. So duck's having a crap, it's not gonna scratch at anything, it's not gonna jump up. And then I thought, hang on a minute, layer that again. Now there's duck eggs, there's a good market for duck eggs, especially um older people like um because I don't class what seven is old, so older people, um, they they they like to um cook with them. And in the demographics in New Zealand, um there's a there's a really good Asian market, they love duck eggs. So that's the so I've got something managing the orchard and an income stream coming off them instead of the cost of managing the orchard. And of course the three varieties of ducks are I used are for meat and for eggs, and they also um well yeah, yeah, for eggs and stuff like that. So I also yeah, they don't like flying. They can fly. Yeah, if you if you chase them in that they will fly, but generally they're pretty lazy. Um they'll just cruise around. So, you know, I put a little bit of thought into those sort of things, and then then the other things with with the layering, it all comes down to photosynthesis, really. Um in the whole s in my whole system, really. That's the that's the energy source in. So the um so now what I'm doing is I'm starting to interplant, for instance, um and I do it all from cuttings. Um really cheap and pretty dewy, so I I do that's how I do with trees. I cut them and grow them out myself and try and keep it as cheap as possible. But um, so now I'm doing cuttings from like boysenberries and raspberries and uh grapes. And I'm gonna grow them along in the in the tree lines, you know, between trees and stuff like that. So it's another income stream again that I can that I can sell those, but don't want to, doesn't matter. The cows can get some of it, which again is is another part of the diversity. Diversity for their gut, you know. Um and and that's that's a really good thing. I don't like I don't feed grains or anything like that, because um the cow hasn't got a gizzard, it's actually got a ruminant, so I think mm, if it was a if it had a gizzard, I'd give it grain, but it hasn't. So it's all the herbage that they can actually eat. So I've got those, yeah, I'm just kick I'm only kicking that off now because it's all it takes stages, like some of the first trees I planted, or the secondary plantings I should say, I couldn't have put them in unless I put the first trees in because some don't like wind. You know, and I'm gonna and we can get some good winds, so I put them in so they survive. Some plants like filtered lights, some lights you know, so so there's a balance even on the farm with the trees are planted between evergreen and um and decided deciduous. I uh I had to I didn't want the farm to go naked in the winter time, if you like, and and uh stuff like that, but I did want it to be open and let the warmth in. And the reverse for the summer time. I wanted the the shade more, all that filtered light, and and the protection not just for the animals but for the soil, uh fungi, there's a whole lot of other things that go on. So it's it's better matching all that up. One minute. So that that's that's why that's why it's a it's a it's a stacking enterprise, but it should probably should be a building enterprise. So you're building it as it's going along because it's it's developing and and um it enables me to keep putting things in and putting things in, which is a different process than just extracting, extracting, extracting. So it really builds itself. And I've just got to be observant and understand and see an opportunity, see where the sun rises, see where the shade is, um, understand the retention of water, say, oh those plants don't like too much water there, well, there's a little bit of a mound there, that's where you can plant there, and and all those sort of things. And I just do that intuitively, um, and I've always just done it off it's either been in my head or that's what I think, and I just run with it and back it. And um luckily it hasn't turned to crap, so um it's been really good. But even if it did, at least I didn't want to go my grade thinking would have. You know, life's an ex life's it's it's an I was gonna say it's an experiment with pretty much but it's an experience. This I mean, you wanna have a reason to get out of bed. You wanna put your little stamp of the individuality on on something can and um you know, feel alive about it and be a little bit passionate about it, even if everybody else is telling you the opposite. thing or being a little bit negative, that doesn't matter. That's their problem, not yours. So I've sort of taken that, you know, and in today's society they'd call that arrogant. And that's only to control you. And then if you back your if you back your opinion, now you're opinionated. Oh this this is this is all designed to shut you up. You know? So I I think you know you on your own farms or or in your own businesses or whatever, whatever. If you if you've got an idea in your head um and it's not a stupid one go with it. But anyway, um yeah I might just I do want to do that.

SPEAKER_06 22:40

Well that's fantastic and I'd love to yeah totally. And I'm just just thinking there's going to be shit loads of questions. Yeah because um you've given a the very tip of of a pretty complex operation um I'll thought I'd kick things off being an ex dairy farmer and um how many how many acres have you on there? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 23:02

Just a bit of an idea yeah yeah yeah yeah no yeah true true on the scheme of things from over here would probably the corner of one paddock um so true so it's it's eighty eighty eight hectares all up so there's it is quite small in the scheme of things but sound here but small doesn't mean it's not good you know um and then uh because I work with a lot of farmers in Queensland northern New South Wales and they go through this phase of so much diversity and then it's too much to manage and then settle on something.

SPEAKER_06 23:41

We normally say seven or eight things that they can economically run and manage without going too mad um but you know we're already a bit mad what what's been your experience or what are you um you know where are you at in terms of um a a diversity number that suits your farming operation without you know just being too busy yeah no good question um I try not to get too bent out of shape about things actually and think too far ahead because it it's sort of quite restricting.

SPEAKER_05 24:16

So um it's sort of it's a div it's a development thing. So as as as it's going along I'm sort of assessing it and and looking at it and as I said before some of those things that I'm doing um super super not supersede just um supercharge some of the other parts of operation so even if I don't um don't harvest something or don't do something it's not a negative to the business or anything. It's just something sitting in the background you know and I used to say when my kids were younger and they wanted to design a jeans and stuff like that I said get out there and pick that fruit then and sell it you know and if you get you know I can I'll I'll give you half you know I didn't didn't give them half give them less but you know I took advantage because they were young and couldn't add.

SPEAKER_06 25:05

Right I will open it up to questions.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Thanks Gavin Penny Thanks Gavin love what you're doing and it's not the size that matters no matter what anyone might tell you so my question is actually nothing to do with that but uh what I'm interested in is with all the different hey I love your mind because you're thinking where else what next what's possible and you don't worry about the nancy they just do it. And that's so in keeping with nature because she doesn't analyze stuff she just does it. And if we can take more lessons from how you do things I think we're all be richer. But what I'm interested in is in the uh you said your marketing is off the planet organics that's your brand so do you have I guess the milk is the regular consistent income stream yeah yeah and then when you're adding fruit do you sell that or is that for just the biodiversity within your system within the whole system at your place um when you're doing the berries when you're doing your ducks what sort of ducks do you have? I'm interested in ducks okay um and then introducing into your repertoire but then into your marketplace people follow you and that you just put a post out and say I've got apples where do they find them what's I'm interested in what happens when you the your your produce leaves the farm not the milk but the other one cool um just covered it here and okay yeah that the yeah so yep I'll I'll unpack it.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

So the dairy is the dairy is the engine room of the business. We did belong to a smaller co-op but that was an option after a while because it wasn't there so we are supplying Pontera so pretty much their tanker rattles up the driveway rattles back out and might be paid so that that I I'd like to there's real opportunity there as well big opportunity there. Some of it some of it's um with regulations and our MPI over there and you know they think raw milk is toxic or something I don't know um you know you can go to the supermarket and buy a chicken and put it in your car and talk to your neighbour for half an hour and the chicken's sitting in the sun that's fine. But you know you can't drink raw milk you know and I'm the you know I'm the third generation drinking fourth generation on our farm drinking milk raw milk and you know I would just probably the worst that's ever happened might have got the shits because we drank too much I don't know but you know because we just scull big jars of it. So um but that yeah so that's that's aside where the where the milk goes um the ducks um the Peking is one of them Cayuga which is the black duck and then uh magpie duck those are the those are the three and um shot the magpie ducks black and white you know so so though yeah those are those are the the three ducks um what else was it oh yes and right so the the the egg side of things that was um I just that was through through sort of Instagram to start with and then word of mouth and I just want to keep it local because in in my mind and and it's showing up you know food security is going to be a big issue if we just don't get it together. And um if if all the farmers around me were just doing a little bit a few eggs or a little bit of fruit you know not on a huge commercial scale um because food security isn't one farmer in the district doing it. That's not food security that's one farmer in the district doing it. So um I I my concentration is on on just local and um yeah what local people like you know if I did something stupid to be right around town straight away. So you know word of mouth is a good tool and um and then as as depending on the seasons like now that some of those fruit trees you know they're all at different stages are coming on when I start you know having too many pears or too many oranges or things like that I just put the word out and then I either deliver them because it's all close or they come and get them or or whatever. So there's no big I haven't done a marketing strategy or anything like that and and um or how I'm going to do those sort of things. They sort of just take a little path of their own. So I haven't been I think sometimes you can if you dive too deep into stuff it puts you off where I just do things and then they sort of just morph into their own sort of thing you know and that's sort of how nature does work too so um if it doesn't work I'll just blame nature so that's yeah that's sort of how how I roll. Yeah. No not yet but I I can see that coming yes yep to answer that.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

My question was actually quite similar is about the scale of the different layers in the market. So maybe I'll hand over to somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

I'll hear you but they might not yeah I follow a guy a younger Californian guy that's moved to New Zealand called Byron I'm not sure of his last name I'm not sure if you've yeah I know who you're talking about yeah yeah so he's an advocate of syntropic agroforestry and I'm trying to do something similar just up the road in Winchelsea so the the the rainfall and the conditions are a little bit more well I shouldn't say more challenging but everyone's got their own context of what they're trying to achieve. But I love his um theory on creating support species. So I'm curious to know with your orchards what support spee uh species are you growing and the management of them? Like are you having to because he talks about the the planting is five percent and the management is 95%. That's that's in his theory. Yes. So how do you manage your orchard to maximize the result that you're after you're talking about Byron no no no no this is the this is the this his name's Byron and um yeah I I'm not sure of his last name but yeah he's he's very um active on Instagram and yeah yeah he he doesn't live that far away from me in the scheme of things actually yeah so yeah I have seen his stuff and uh bits and pieces and um but yeah to answer your question there that orchard thing is just a uh a new thing like most of my um my apple trees and most of the fruit trees are all around in the rows and scattered all over the place.

SPEAKER_05 32:04

And and and that is to help um because if you have just a mono monoculture of something that's where you get your disease and all that sort of thing. So I like to do experiments and I just got these trees given to me. So they are basically in a inner orchard and that was where I put them was I had a whole lot of multi-species pastures and stuff that come up and went down and all that sort of stuff real good fertility there. And I so I just whack them in and then just threw the ducks in there and then I'm just going to see what happens. And um so I I haven't made it complicated and and and it and and I know what he's what Boron's doing and and what he's saying and and uh lot a lot of it's 100% correct too. But there's more than one way of skin the cat you know they'll say and um sometimes you can make things easier for yourself and that the important part where there is yourself so that that doesn't mean somebody else has to do that. So what I do is I just try and function on my level and um do what I want to do. So um I didn't give you any gems here did I I didn't give you any gems there did I um so I I'm not really doing too much at all mate.

SPEAKER_09 33:21

Yeah yeah Gavin love it and and so interested by all the different ways that you've added to your enterprise but what was your original why for diversifying so far beyond dairy and is that still your driving sort of purpose in all these things you're doing oh that's a really good question actually now I'm gonna have to dig deep in my head um I I suppose it was I spent I'd like I I left school and went on the farm and stuff like that and um then I had I did have a two year break you know did what everyone does put a backpack on and went nuts overseas and and I was lucky I went up into a jungle and stayed with his tribe for a little bit and did all sorts of crazy things but I did see how I I seen different things like and and when it came to food production and they weren't putting on all the fertilizer and you know and and how minimal inputs that um with work and everything that they were actually having to do.

SPEAKER_05 34:23

And then I came when I came back to the farm and you know dad had built the fertilizer bin bigger we're getting more metabolic problems with the animals and it had changed even in that short amount of time and it didn't fit it didn't it never fitted with how I thought either so I just went no this is wrong and I still remember driving the tractor and I was spreading um I had to spread some fertilizer and it was um potash so um potassium and you know it was it was rusting the bottle of the tractor out it was burning my skin and um the wheel marks on the ground were burning it and and my father was saying that was good for the land. My head's just going how can I be you know so um yeah what doesn't I wasn't that bright at school actually they told me to bug it off um so I have to I have to just follow what I think and um and and back that.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Is that does that okay yeah oh g'day how's it going? Uh nice to see you're a good fan of diversity um I'm running about 10 different operations at uh on my farm I'd love to know your take on what makes you uh pick up new things and at what point do you go hey this is not working anymore uh I've got to kind of take this out of the system.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

Okay on the on the first one um picking up things that's just purely observation you know and looking at the opportunities and and those opportunities are developing because the farm's developing the farm's growing and the conditions are changing so it's not a static thing. So it's it's not a it's not a one thing that of an opportunity it's those that they're coming along at all different times. Whether I choose to do something at that time or choose to do something later I will log that opportunity um and in aspects to if something's not working um well you start do it I mean if it if it doesn't if it doesn't work it's just the the good thing is if it doesn't work that is not your business in aspects to that is not your soul business I should say so it it it's just like trimming your fingernails it doesn't matter to your body you know okay well it is working then so um the the so and that's what I was saying before what what I've done is I've set it up where everything is interconnected so it's always working you know that that's that's the bulletproof thing about it it it it um they're all supporting each other there's that symbiotic relationship there's that that synergy and and and all that sort of stuff so you know my first thing is on the ecology and of all those things working and then looking at it and going oh what can I harvest out of that and and and and turn that into you know and into money um because you know we're in business and we need it unless we want to live in a cave and have bats for friends you know so it's just how it is. No we got deer though so that's another that's another side of things we're yeah no there's lots I haven't mentioned.

SPEAKER_11 37:51

Hey my name's Squin from um Mikkelum and I've got a horse farm so I want to know how to grow good grass. That's why I'm here and my question to you um is when you got back from overseas and you decided you didn't want to do the whole fertilizer thing and you wanted to switch to having like natural imports so that you didn't have to travel around spreading it all what was the very first thing that you did to try and change your pasture?

SPEAKER_05 38:17

Excellent question. So the very first and and and what I want to point out first is the very first thing I did because of where the land was and and the past practices on our land which might be different to yours and everybody else's you know sometimes people don't realize that you know so um yeah the first I'll probably turn it off clearly got a louder voice than me um so what I what I did first is I introduced a whole lot of different um varieties of seed actually to start with because what that does is it changes the biochemistry of your soil it changes your um the the ecology of things because different flowers different exudites at the um you know different um pro um carbon sugars that are going into the soil different root structures it changes a whole lot of things just by one thing but more importantly it's how then you manage that and what I wanted it to do is is um I always let things go to seed as well because of the DNA memory of a seed. And the DNA memory of a seed is if if that plant's been through a drought or or a cold condition and all that it remembers it just like we do. And um and you've got DNA in you that goes back thousands of years it's it's sitting in your cells. But anyway it's the same with the seed and um so every generation which is only a year for a plant it gets better and better and it more so it's not the same as the mother plant if you like. So to answer your question it was seed that I did first because it had and then it took care of the animal health or I call it animal ill health let's so make your focus what it is instead of animal health it takes care of a lot of that problem as well. So it it has a whole lot of the whole facet of of things by doing one thing. Yeah so that's what I did. Hi Edith from Northeast Victoria I was wondering if you could speak to the profitability of the farm if you're comfortable with it and then I was also wondering when you like wake up a day like how do you choose which tasks are for today oh damn um on the profitability side of things I used to always put the numbers like of milk solids that we're doing of all sorts all the figures out there on milk solids like the composition of what we get paid on for our milk so the more of those you do the more money you make of course so and and uh you know the profitability of stuff and I even and this is years ago I came over and spoke and and uh let's see someone nodding their head down there because you were there wouldn't you um came in and I forget how many years ago came over to Oz and and spoke and they wanted to know where I stood within the dairy industry in New Zealand. So at the time there was Profit Watch which was an industry um computer module thing and the accountant just threw um they got all my figures off the count and they threw it all in there and I was in the top three percent and the actually the the the lady nearly fell off a chair. And I was quite annoyed because she couldn't put in because the other side of that stacking enterprises I run um tourist groups and also run education days and and the and the focus on the education days is actually students um because you know an old dinosaur like me is not the future the younger people are the future and and and also the other future customers as well if you think about it. So it it covers all bases there again. So the farm is very profitable and it's doing very well. What I say to people is if I say to you and say you've got a $100,000 fertilizer bill and I say I don't use any that's $100,000 that you'll save if you can get to the stage that you don't do that. When I say my um the empty rate for my animals this year was 3.95% with a with an average around us was 18%. If if you can do that saving that's what that's worth to your operation. So you gotta because I just see all these figures and I think that's why we're in the problem we were in everyone's followed all these figures and you and you can do anything with figures. I mean I do if I went to the bank and wanted a mortgage I present these figures and they look as good as possible I pay a bloody accountant to do the opposite to make them look like shit so I don't have to pay tax same figures you know you know so yeah so I I'm not I'm I'm not trying to evade that question I just want to explain why I'm not answering it the other way of looking at it is a lot of region farmers make money on the way in not on the way out so they focus more on less input costs and and and and that's not recognized.

SPEAKER_06 43:27

It's all mainly conventional is all all all about the size the yield um now there was this yeah just on that word conventional that's always sort of I I I talk um non-organic and and things like that and I I don't say conventional because you know I call them alternative because a lot of the practice that I'm doing is conventional so we've been tricked in our thinking it's a bit like Facebook and you've got all these friends

SPEAKER_05 44:01

But the connotation of that word makes you think that, you know, and you get all these likes on Instagram, you go, oh like you know, they're just going, oh sorry, oh yeah, lightning, you know So it's it's it's you know Oh close my eyes normally Oh no No no I just um I'm very good at um like and my wife's not good at it and and she'll admit that she'll just look at everything and just go wow you know there's all this to do where I can just look in front of me and just start dealing with it and picking it off and and um I've done a lot of training like I run a martial arts class and do all that sort of stuff and I've done a lot of sort of training and part part of that is your part of that is your head and um and part of that is relaxing it too. So I I've got training a couple of times a week, two hours on a Monday night, two hours on a Wednesday night. And um I think it's important sometimes just to zone out as well, you know. But then more importantly, of when you zone back in, that you can actually handle what you're zoned in on, you know. This is gonna be tricky, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 45:17

Tricky. Um it's just a follow-up to the question about profitability and um and also the question about what did you do first. Um and one of the things you mentioned was uh you let some of that seed, that multi-species seed, um, go to seed, that the multi-species go to seed. I've heard with other dairy farmers that there can often be a trade-off there where you know you if you leave that pasture long enough for it to go to seed, then it's not optimal for making milk. Um but it sounds like maybe the fact that you run this very low-cost enterprise means that you're not in that spot where you're trying to squeeze the optimum out of every graze. Um that gives you the that gives you the ability to have a bit more flexibility, a bit more buffer, and not worry about trying to get the optimum out of every single graze, you know, the maximum milk out of every graze.

SPEAKER_05 46:11

Is that well I think the maximum and optimum are probably two different things, actually. I think I'm getting the optimum result, actually. And um yeah, I hear that argument about longer rotations and and and it's more protein-based what they're talking. Well, my cows are getting that off some of those trees and nitrogen fixing trees, sort of scoffing at anyway. And then the other side of things is with a a real good diverse pasture. If I just had ryegrass and I went on and let it go to seed and stuff like that, yep, my milk production would tank. All right. But in that diversity, in that length, you still got your protein down here, you still and speaking of protein, we we just we don't look at what everything is protein. So a lot of the cows are eating um the when it when it when it um say like a dandelion, for instance, which could be considered as a weed with some people, it's not, it's a brilliant plant. Um it's full of seed. And it and if the cows are eating it when it's soft, that's omega oil. And they'll walk in the paddock and they'll mow those out. Those animals are getting heaps of protein, so they don't take a dive, you know. So sometimes people are trying to keep doing their same system and and and um and then just add in uh an aspect of somebody else's and wonder why it doesn't work because they don't fully understand it. And I think that you know the important part is is is actually understanding that. So if you you know, if you can get opportunities, you know, you go and you you go and visit those farms, you talk to people that are actually doing it. You don't take well, I don't anyway, you know, if someone rings you up and they're gonna give you advice on on your running your farm and your pasture and your fertil fertility, and they've never been on your farm or never dug a hole, just hang up. It's probably the cheapest thing you've done that day. Does it does it?

SPEAKER_10 48:19

Can I just ask? Oh yeah, cool. Um, thanks for all the insights you've shared. I would love to learn a bit more about um your observations in the pasture growth, like around trees, and now that you've integrated trees into your system um more and for quite a while by the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

Yeah, no, good, yeah, real good question. Um observed a lot there actually. Um so it depends on time of the year too, you know. Like if if if we do get a drought or a really long dry period and stuff like that, you know, where where the grass is growing the best, it's in the shade aspect of the tree, and you can see it going right out into the pasture. Because this I've sort of harved the amount of sunlight or or no, sorry, the the intensity of the heat that's hitting the pasture. So that's all growing there. Um, I got told the first discussion group I went to in 1980, actually, because they said you know, go and learn off the local farmers and the good farmers. The they actually the discussion of the topic of the day was a good tree was a tree with a chainsaw through it. And and to be fair to them, some of the trees that the grandfathers had planted were the wrong trees, so that you know cows were were bought in because they're eating it, and some were poison and and some had roots sticking out in the paddock and all sorts of stuff. So I I sort of 1% of me agrees. Um but so and I got told that you you know the cows they'd be out in the field and not um not sorry, they'd be under under the shade and they wouldn't be eating grass and you wouldn't be producing any milk, or or they make a mess under a tree, it's because there was so many cows around one tree. Um, and that the grass that the trees would rob the nutrient and I wouldn't be able to grow the grass, and then the grass wouldn't grow up to the to the to the trunk and all that sort of stuff. That's not what I observe. And actually at the time I said, well, I've never seen a tree run down the tanker track and out on the gateway yet robbing anything. Um so I probably were glad I didn't go back because I don't I didn't go back because I just had too much that I didn't agree with in my own head, you know, for for where I was. So probably to answer your question is like I see upward benefit all the time and different uh fr from having the combination of the trees and the pasture. And then there's a whole thing in static energy that goes on. There's a whole whole topic on the sharing between the root systems and the communication that goes on, and I could just go on forever. There's so much involved in it, and um and by the way, my reading shit, I do bugger all reading or bugger all research. I just for some reason just pull this stuff out of my head. And I've I've I've had days at home there, like groups through, and quite often had the question of where'd you read that, where'd you learn that? And my answer, and it does sound like I'm being smart, but I'm not being serious, is who wrote the first book? Information could have come from someone from at some stage. You know, it's it's a bit like um you know, everyone's got their own little thing, and uh it's like an artist, you know, they just draw stuff. Shit, I can't even draw a stick figure, you know. It's so everyone's got their own little little thing. You don't don't have to and that's why I say back yourself, back what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_06 51:53

Um thanks so much, Gavin. That's uh a bit of a glimpse. Um just also before you think Gavin's an absolute Luddite, he doesn't read, he does use tech, he knows how much milk's in the vat at the moment, he knows whether the agitator's on, so he can look on his phone and and monitor those things. Yeah. Um but that was that was an amazing foray into the mind of a person who's just channeling by the by the sound of it, which is just fantastic. So thanks so much for giving us this information today. Where can they go to get more information about this? Because you know, we've just unpacked one layer then. Is there a website? Is there, you know.

SPEAKER_05 52:36

Yeah, must be a time I built a website. Yeah, no, I didn't. Uh it's probably coming. Um I I do I do run, well, as I was saying before, I do run education days and tour days. It is part of uh part of the business now. And that will that was always in the plan because that was part of the diversity of of diversification, I should say, of of the business. Um so I can I can be contacted through just at the moment, only through my Instagram off the planet organics. Um and I do put content on that on there. I'm I'm not a I'm not an Instagram slut or anything, so I'm not on there all the time. Um I probably need to sharpen up a little bit on that. But yeah, that's probably the only only sort of place at the at the moment. Um and I'm more comfortable, I've been approached many times to um to do consultancy work and stuff like that. I don't want to go on farm and do consultancy work. My my happy place is on farm. I'd rather have people come to me. And normally I do a bit of a spiel on on the on the on the veranda and say, let's go for a walk to see if I'm full of shit. So so people can actually see for themselves and seeing it's believing, feeling it, walking it, being amongst it. Thanks so much, Kevin.

SPEAKER_06 53:52

Wonderful. Gavin Fisher, ladies and gentlemen.