In Pursuite of Conscious Living & Dying with Lisa Goodwin

When Lisa Goodwin collided with cancer, she met it with courage and curiosity. She has undergone many different types of healings and treatments over the last few years, mostly of the holistic and spiritual kind and this dance she has been doing with it all inspired her to start a blog, along with other projects, on the topic of Conscious Dying.

In this episode, I interviewed Lisa to talk about what many people do not want to talk about and I learned so much from her just from this one conversation.  Through her own confrontations with death, she is teaching us all so much about LIFE.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hello, beautiful humans. This is your host, Karen Davis King, and I have a I didn't even have a word to describe this guest and all the beauty and courage that she exudes from the moment I have met her, which has been probably seven, eight years now. Um, but and to up to now and beyond, I would love and I'm so excited to introduce to you my guest today, Lisa Goodwin. She is the former owner founder of Rise Wellbeing Center, which began in was it 2017? 2017. Yes. Um, this is how I came to know Lisa Goodwin. I started teaching at her amazing facility, which she like handpicked all the decor, and it wasn't just decor. I mean, this was nature that she brought into this space. It was the most unique, beautiful space in the middle of a corporate environment that brought so much, so many options for people to come and be in a peaceful space and heal their mind, body, spirit, get that optimal healing, optimal experiences in a variety of ways to a variety of practitioners and facilitators. And it was just such a special place, which unfortunately, after 2020 and a lot of other things, it had to close down. So um, that was so devastating to all of us. But what she created there is still lives on. And Lisa is currently, she's been battling with cancer and over several years now. Was it 2021?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

2024.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Oh gosh. Okay, so 2024. Um, she's been battling with cancer since then and has been on a journey and current more recently is doing a conscious dying blog where she is talking openly and courageously about her experience. And this is, I'm gonna hand this over to you to talk more because it's such it could be such an uncomfortable thing for so many of us to talk about. We don't even want to think about it, much less talk about it. Um and so I would love to start the conversation with what made you decide to do a blog on conscious dying and want to talk about this on the capacity that you are right now.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Thank you, Karen. Thank you for that beautiful introduction. So glad to be here. Um, let's see. So I got diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2024. And um aerialing, I had always said I'll never get cancer because I know what cancer is all about, and I have a healthy life, and I, you know, this, that, and the other, and then whoops, there you go. So, but um the start of that uh was shocking, but then you know, I sort of gotten the hang of um this is what's my reality for now, and I embraced it and uh I started sharing um all the blessings that were coming out because of it. I mean, it's a huge thing and it brings a lot of attention, and um I just thought was an opportunity to help people uh maybe not be so afraid. So I started sharing what all the blessings were fully expecting, that I'd have a miraculous healing and recovery. And um lo and behold, a year and a half later, after a wonderful trip to a healing center in Mexico where I was sure everything was gone, um, I came to find out that that was not gonna be the case for me. So um that was devastating, actually. I really thought that that was gonna be the end of it. And uh after I laid on the ground in the fetal position for a while, um, I managed to get myself up and decide that, you know, there was still more to do. And um started preparing myself and uh looking into what the resources were, I went right on to hospice care about why wait. Um, the um, you know, the the oncology team uh where I am, they understand me. I'm all about quality of life. And while they did offer a solution, um, there really was no curing at this point. So it was more prolonging your life, but I had already been on a chemotherapy journey and um had stopped it because it was really affecting my quality of life. And I just I just wasn't willing to have that kind of life. I I want to be able to do what I want to do and um you know feel okay. So I I opted for the hospice care and I started on that. And um when I started to share with people where I was and what I was doing, um it became apparent that everybody has this idea um that there's kind of a problem with surrendering and being okay going on to hospice care. Like I needed to fight, I needed to change my language, um, I needed to focus all my thoughts on getting well and talking about being here in the future. And I thought, oh, I don't know how that's helpful to me. Um and the more you know I explored this and shared on social media, you know, the more I realized that there's just a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear about death, there's a lot of fear about dying, there's a lot of questions. Um, and uh I think overall most people feel like it's a failure if you die. And so I thought this this doesn't make any sense and all the suffering that happens because when you have an attitude like that and you know you don't want to fight, you know, everybody's like, oh, don't give up, don't give up. Um, but I wasn't giving up, I was surrendering. Yeah, the surrendering. So I'm not I'm not I haven't been that good about surrendering in my life because most people in our society teaches us to try to control things and we want to be in control because we feel safe. It's less stressful, we think. Um, but I had already learned that there was, I mean, I had already done everything I could do, and still the cancer progressed. So I knew that this wasn't about that, this was more about me accepting where I am and being okay with it, and that's what I set out to do. And I I learned that even in the spiritual community, um, there's just there's just this fear and um a lot of suffering because of it. So I wanted to change that. So I started to do research and um reading about conscious dying and what does that really mean and what does it look like? And um then I started a blog to share what I'm finding out and what my own experiences are, and um, it's really been quite amazing. I feel like uh I'm writing a book and I and in and if I have the miracle healing, which I might, um, I'm gonna call it House Surrendering Save My Life. Because I really feel like that is the key. Um for me, this this was this was for me, this is my journey, and um I have no doubt uh it's my belief that I have a life plan. It's no doubt that it was in my plan to get cancer uh for many reasons, and um the shift that's occurred in my life because of it is tremendous. I mean, I would I would not want to live my life differently. I I'm perfectly content, uh no regrets um and that kind of thing. Uh, because again, it's it's all for my growth and expansion. And so the more I can grow and expand, the more I can demonstrate that to others and help others. So yeah, so the conscious dying just came naturally out of that. Um, and um, you know, it's my hope to become an educator. I don't know whether I'm gonna become a chaplain or a death duel or what, but I I want to help other people, you know, come to acceptance with being surrendered. That's not giving up, that's being okay with what's happening, and at the same time holding a space for a different outcome if that's possible.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

And I love the way that you had just have allowed this whole thing to just shape who you are becoming now. It's not some end, it's like these new beginnings all over and over again through this cancer journey. And I watched you like uh for those of you who do not know Lisa already, this woman like got a conversion van and went on this adventure, and she was doing things that like I'm watching her and going, oh, I've been wanting to do something like that for a long time. And it's things like remembering how like something like this will certainly teach you how to live really quickly if you if you let it, right? And and um watching you do all of these things. You went to a Joe Dispenza um event, which I love his work.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Week long retreat and followed it stuff for months. I I I did those meditations, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, yeah, but she was just all over the place and um just living your life, right? And so I I I loved watching this, and it was so inspiring to me because it was reminding me of things that I wanted to do, but I'm not doing them because I'm making assumptions about my own life and about time and about what I even want and and what I'm okay with and not okay with, even things like, oh, what you know. Um, I would like to go back because you've mentioned the surrender and giving up. And I think that is something where we have a hard time knowing the difference. So, can you talk more about that? Like the difference between surrendering and giving up, what you've learned.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Sure. Um, so for me, the uh like the Joe Dispenza, I love to use that as an example because Joe Dispenza is really powerful and his work is absolutely there's no doubt people have healings, there's no doubt. Um having that experience was fantastic, and uh, you know, I I totally believed that I could um shift my reality with my thoughts and my actions. And I'm not saying that I couldn't, but I did do that, and then I realized, well, that wasn't giving me the outcome that I wanted, so I'm gonna try some other things. And sort of I I did I did all the treatments and things that felt aligned with me. I didn't do everything because I think we all can say our bodies are different, we're different, and not every treatment is going to work the same way on everybody. But there's this sense that you need to do everything up until the last minute. And this is sort of a dilemma in the medical system is that they keep treating until the disease is gone or you die. So a lot of people, their end of life is very painful. Um, they end up in hospitals and you know, they don't have a quality of life. Right. So I saw that and I said that I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. Um because I believe that on some level I can't really make a mistake. I I can't, I I can't really do the wrong treatment. I mean if I'm meant to live, I'm going to live. I don't know what it'll be, but um, if I'm meant to die, you know, then I'm going to die. I I don't feel that I have that level of control. And so for me, the surrender was saying, hey, I know that on some level I plan this and it's happening for my highest good, or I can make it that it's happening for my highest good. Um, and I'm really not in control. So this idea of giving up in some people's minds is, oh, well, she gave up because she doesn't pursue all the different treatments. But if you have a belief system like mine, it's a little easier to say, hey, I am surrendered to a higher knowing, a higher plan, a higher being. And um, I'm going to trust that all is well. And it's a hard thing to do. I'm not going to say it's easy and everybody can't do it. I mean, I've been doing it a long time, as you mentioned, you know, I went on a van trip by myself with my dog across the country. Um, I put that all on social media for the same reason. I mean, I just want people to know, you know, you can do these things as a 50-something-year-old woman by yourself. You will you can be safe and you can do it, and it can be fun. And so I felt the same way about the cancer journey. It's like, you know, this can be done and we can do it courageously, and we can do it in love, and we can we can be okay with the outcome. And maybe that's the sticking point. See, I'm okay with dying. I'm age 60, I have three children, I have no grandchildren, my children aren't married yet. But you know, I've been leaving all that behind. Oh, you know, I've always wanted grandchildren, I've always wanted to see my children get married. And, you know, so it took time to process that, no doubt. But you know, eventually you get to the place where I don't know what this is serving and who it's serving. And if the best thing that could happen was for my life to end at age 60, then I'm okay with that because obviously there's a bigger plan. So, but you know, when you start to talk like that, um, even in the spiritual community, um, you know, people were upset with me. I I posted or I talked to several people, and and one of them, like, she wouldn't even use the word death. Um, she was like, oh no, no, everything's a rebirth, it's all ascension. And I was like, no, no, it it's a transition. But there is a death of my physical body. Now I totally believe that my consciousness continues on, uh, it's not lights out. This is my belief. Um, but my physical body will have run its course and it will die. And there can be a rebirth, but it isn't a rebirth. It isn't uh it's a it's a death. And so, and in others, same thing. It's like, I can't believe you're giving up. Why, why, why are you talking like that? You know, you need to totally focus on I will be here, and you use that language and your thoughts. And it that just didn't make sense to me. I mean, I I have plans for if I'm not here, you know, I've got these projects. I'm I'm reading, I'm reading kids' board books. Um, and I'm gonna make a YouTube uh account um where I upload them all so that when I'm not here, my children can let their children uh read books with me, you know? And so I have other projects too, and I don't want to leave things in a really great state for my family. I I don't I don't want to leave them, you know, in limbo with all my stuff. I immediately cleaned out my closet and gave away stuff, and now here I am, like four months later, like, oh, good thing my friends didn't give my clothes away. They actually gave them back to me. I was like, I'm so glad you didn't give them away yet, because I still need them. But you know, I just really wanted stuff to be taken care of for everybody. So I think holding both for me made the most sense. Like plant is if you're leaving, but at the same time, do what makes sense to stay. So I'm still doing alternative treatments. Um and again, I don't know what's gonna happen. I could live another 50 years, I doubt it, but you never know. Um, or I can leave this summer, and and either one is okay. And I want other people to get to that place because that is where the peace is. You know, if you're okay with whatever outcome happens, yeah, life is much better. There's a lot less worry, a lot less anxiety, right? It's just it's just an easier place to be. I mean, even if you're, you know, people would say, oh, that's just blind faith and dumb naivete. Well, I'm gonna choose to live that way because, you know, my day-to-day life is so filled with peace and I'm not, you know, not stressed out. I'm not, you know, trying to get the last treatments and you know, what's the newest, latest, brightest? Let me go to, you know, out of the country again. Um, you know, I feel like I did what needed to be done. And if I'm meant to live, I'm gonna live. And if I'm meant to die, then then I'll die. But either way, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

That is that is so powerful and so so beautiful. And I mean, when we think about it, we're all going to die. We can't avoid that. That will happen, whether it's now or later, or when we're ready or when we're not ready, are we ever ready, you know? Um, and so being able to open the floor for more conversation about that and what it even means to die, right? Or to transition crossover. And I like you do believe that there is a consciousness that continues to live on and and whether it comes back into a different body this time, you know, next time or whatever, but that consciousness lives on. And I can say that I've even felt that. Um, I remember shortly it it we don't just live on, like we are still doing things. Um, I I know that like when my mother, sorry, I have to take a drink of water. Um, shortly before my mother passed away. We'd gone out to eat. She had health issues, but she hadn't been sick or anything. There wasn't some warning, but I just saw the energy around her and I felt like I got hit in the chest. And my mother and I were very close, and I just felt this energy around her that was saying to me very clear, like I've heard the words and felt the words. You don't have much time left with her. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know if that meant three days, three months, three years, 30 years. I didn't know. But I just thought, pay attention to that. And what I felt or could sort of see or know around her was that I don't I don't have it, was this I'm tired and I don't have as much to offer you right here in this body where I'm at right now. And so I'm going to transition and I will have a lot more to offer you from that side, and you're going to need it. Now I didn't know what was coming for me, but several years later, after she it was, and it was a few months later, she went into the hospital, she had a fall, and two weeks later she was gone. And I knew the moment she went into the hospital what was happening. And I had had time to prepare for that to some degree. I still didn't know what was coming. But through dealing with her um and grieving her and everything, I could feel her, I feel her around me all the time. My daughters and I see little signs. And for those of you who may be listening who do not know the story of my daughters and I went through, she they had a terrible fentanyl addiction. It was it was for a couple of years, it was really bad, and I was facing the situation like you're talking about sitting with the the reality that they may not want to be here in their bodies anymore. And I cannot control that. There's this instinct as a parent, and anything or anyone you love, including yourself, you're going to fight for it. But at some point, I'm gonna be, I did a lot of chasing them around. I even flew to Oklahoma because I thought my daughter was about to be trafficked by someone, blah, blah, blah. There's all these, these, these, these places where this addiction took us. But I was learning how to, you know, let go. And you said something earlier. It's like I need to know that even if the worst things happen, that I'm going to be okay, even if I'm not okay. Like, how can you be okay if you lose a child? And I know I wouldn't be, but that I would have to learn to be okay. And so I need to also make sure that I am still taking care of me and living my life as best as I can, which means being present in every moment, because that's really all we fucking have.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Is right now.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And it's always just bringing yourself back because I'm making it sound like it's so easy to say, oh, I could live or I could die. It's a daily struggle. It is, you know, I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've got this this discomfort or this pain. And it's like, oh no, am I dying? And then I'd be like, oh, I feel so good today. Oh, I'm living, you know, and I'm driving everybody crazy, you know, texting, you know, like, oh, I think I'm on my way. Oh, I'm not. And um, I've just decided this week, okay, I'm just gonna be present. I'm gonna stop doing that because we want to know. Hey, we want to know what's happening. We want to plan, we want to know. Do you know how hard it is? Not to plan if you're gonna be here in a year, it's very hard. And um, so these are all skills I'm learning, you know, because I've been a planner and um, you know, I know how to do that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah, I never thought about that. I mean, yeah, these are things we don't think about, right? Because we're so busy trying to control all the things of our life and and what it how liberating it can be, and how much more joy I feel we can fight in the more we let go of something.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Seriously, I mean, I'll tell you what, the big word for 2026 that I've been hearing from people is detach. Because, you know, in the Buddhist tradition, of course, they always talk about suffering, and you know, more and more teachers are just saying when you detach from the outcome, you release suffering because then you have no expectation that wasn't met. And so you don't have to be disappointed, you don't have to, you know, be upset, you didn't get what you wanted. Now let me try to figure out another way to get it. If you can just detach from the outcome, you know, you still do your best, you take every step, um, but but but don't have an attachment to something particular.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Yeah, that that attachment to things is what causes us so much suffering. That is that is man, that's really powerful, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

You can I mean the problem is we're we start out wanting to belong, we want to attach to things, we feel safer, you know, because we understand what's happening and where things are going, what the outcomes are gonna be. So it's it's kind of just a product of of our society and the way we're raised. It's you know, and then you have to have a conscious effort to detach from things. And um, you know, I I I can say that it took till getting this cancer diagnosis being stage four terminal, that I finally, you know, okay, this is this is time to detach, you know, this is the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah. Now you said something earlier in where you were you were talking about um I'm not gonna I I know I'm not gonna quote you word for word what you said, but you were saying that you had this was part of your life plan for you to get cancer. And so can you talk to it? Can you explain more what that means? I know what you're I know what you're saying, but um, that is not a belief that I always had. And for some people that may be like, what in on earth is she talking about? Nobody plans to have cancer. So could you talk to us more about that?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah. Well, it's my belief that we come here as souls to the earth to have experiences and to expand. And so some of us might want to explore themes of abandonment, of um, of guilt, of um, you know, of uh grief, you know. Um and I believe that there are certain things, events, that are planned in our lifetime to help us to have those expansions. And I totally believe in free will. I I I mean, from on a day-to-day basis, I do not think that my life is set. But I believe that there are these bigger events. Um and there may in fact be the be that um, you know, there's there's wiggle room in there, there's like exit points that you may or may not take. Like this might be um for me a chance um to leave if I wanted to leave, and it might be a chance to stay if I wanted to stay. So I may actually have some influence over that, but I don't really know, and I don't I don't want to be grabbing onto that, you know. I just want to be more again, I want to be more surrendered, I want to be okay with either one. But if I have my way, of course I'll stay. Um, but this whole idea of a life plan, I I just feel like it brings some comfort to think, again, that we're not just out here floundering around. How do we make our way? But like, you know, we have little things that guide us along the way. We have big events like creating rise for me. It's a huge, huge event. It caused all kinds of expansion. I never stood up for myself before. I mean, I'm a recovering people pleaser and having to deal with that landlord and all that was involved, I never would have had such an opportunity without like a big event like that, like you know, having rise closing and trying to make it through um COVID when you know we couldn't pay the rent. And you know, it just it gave me such opportunities. And so I feel like on some level, we must have planned some things so that we could be sure that we have opportunities to expand and grow. And we don't always have to take them, but I do think that they're there.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Yeah, I do too. I remember being really impacted um reading and uh Neil Donald Walsh wrote something called The Story of the Little Soul. And I believe it's a children's book, but it was that whole premise that we are planning and that we're all supporting each other, you know, in our uh uh desire to come and learn about something, whether it's you know, whatever it is, and that we're assisting each other through that, which really helped me to not look at other people as enemies and you know, things like that. It it it uh doesn't mean that we still aren't sometimes doing things less consciously, you know, but uh and that harm isn't being caused, but at the same time there could be a greater plan for all of it that we have just an inkling of understanding for. But that book was really powerful, and it's that same general premise that there is a plan that's laid out that we agreed to, that we signed up for. And that changes, that can really I know it helped me change the way I look at the things that happen in like they're not happening to me, they're happening for me and for my expansion and the highest good. Right. No matter no matter how much I might hate it or not want it in my life at that moment. And I love what you're saying about uh being in that state of surrender doesn't mean it's easy, and that this this back and forth between wanting to plan and then and then feeling discomfort and having this up and down roller coaster. I mean, life is really messy, and and that's one of the things that make it quite the adventure that it is, because we don't freaking know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

And I love that you just said that.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

What's yeah, because you know, that's the thing. I I don't know if people take the time to actually analyze what it would look like if you just day to day, like the same, well it's like the Joe Dispenses stuff. If you do the same thing every day, you think the same thoughts, you do the same emotions, you're going to have the exact same outcome. And how exciting is it that we get this like event that shapes us up or changes things? I mean, I know we want them all to be, you know, joy and love, and I do too. And I'm mostly in that. But you know, there's these other things that happen that we could call exciting if we had the right mindset, you know? How exciting to have a big event happen that gets you out of your comfort zone that you have to meet new people, do new things, go places. You know, I've never been in hospitals. I've been hospitalized multiple times, and now I'm not gonna say it was fun, but like I met beautiful people. And, you know, I got to receive love. And I'm such, you know, we don't always women have opportunities for that. We are very much givers. I have another friend who's just in the hospital, and we all we talked about the fact, hey, it's your time to receive, you know, you've been a giver caretaker your whole life. Look at, you know, same thing. A really healthy woman ends up in the hospital with this terrible thing happening. It's like, what's that about? Well, what if we thought of it as an opportunity for expansion and growth and something new, a challenge, right? I mean, I I can't imagine it's probably why I don't have a nine to five job. Like I don't think I could do that. I don't think I could go every day, do the same stuff every day, all day long, day after day, wait till retirement. And I I don't know. It just it sounds um, it sounds difficult to me and and not and not what I would want for my life.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, well said. Well said. Um, there was something we you you said something in there that made me think too of you're you're sharing some of these blessings that you've gotten because you had the right mindset to see them as a blessing, even just being in a new experience of being in the hospital and and going, wow, I never would have met this person or had this exchange with that person. So tell me some more of some of the blessings um that have come through this this journey, things that you would not have experienced.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Well, the biggest blessing I've had so far is a renewed and unbelievably close relationship with my son, who um, you know, I I've I was a single mom um starting in 2009, and um he's the only male living with us of two daughters, and so um it was tough for him. His his dad moved out, and um, you know, he started to align with his dad, and his dad has his own healing work to do and you know has blames me for things and you know, pointed out how odd I am sometimes, you know, I'm a little different, sure. Um, but it it started to become a problem um where my son could really not interact with me. This was through college, teen years, and it was a period of time where we didn't talk to each other. And um, you know, I of course I held out, I always just hold the space that things would be different. And I knew that they could be different. And I gave him this space because I knew that he had to explore this. But when I got the cancer diagnosis, um, you know, all of a sudden it things changed. He was in a transition himself, he was doing his own self-work, and we had these opportunities to spend time together that we hadn't had before because he quit his job and he started visiting me. And we just got so close and you know, realized how aligned we are with our thinking, the way that we think the universe works, and he's just been so supportive and loving, and I'm just I told him, you know, I'm just over the moon. This is like the biggest blessing, and you know what? If I leave, if I if I'm to die or whatever, I die having a dream fulfilled that I have a relationship with my son that I I really didn't even know was possible. So that's one of the biggest blessings that's come out of this.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Wow, that is I've I'm feeling that. I'm really feeling that. And it's it's very inspiring, Lisa, because you know, I have like I'm sitting here thinking, if I had received the news that, you know, I was going to die, um I'd have to be asking myself, what's my unfinished business here? And it's not something that I like to think that I, you know, do a lot of work and I'm a spiritual person, but I got some unfinished business. You know, I just thought of a couple of people in general and just other things that, you know, I would like to do and things, you know, that things that really matter. Even when we think about the choices we make in our day, we can forget what our values really are. When I decide if I'm going to spend time or money, are are they really like aligned with my values and the priorities of my values? And if not, then then why am I am I running from something? Like all these questions that like I don't, I want to be able. And I we all do, right? And I I think that's probably the scarier thing than dying is the have I did I really live? Yeah, or did I just just kind of spend that time trying to stay in these lines that keep me sort of maybe safe in in one sense of the word with safety, would safety is an illusion in and of itself, but like keep me in this little box so that I'm not feeling too much or suffering too much. But if I avoid that, then I don't get to experience that radical, outrageous joy and liberation and just fierce, crazy love and and just passion and all these other things that we we really want to experience. But when we're watering down all that other stuff over here, we're not going to get that level. And I can see it and feel it in you that you are just open to being a human being, what that is, and it is a really beautiful, messy, ugly, profound thing to be a spirit having a human, to be this spiritual being having a human experience.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

It is challenging, and the idea of reconciling with people, well, this is the one of the blessings of having a diagnosis where you know you're not getting hit by a bus tomorrow. Right. Um, you know, you have this time. And so, you know, I've already kind of since it's been a few months, I've already reconciled what I felt needed to be reconciled. And I was writing in the blog this week that I don't feel that I have more reconciling to do, you know. And I and I and people talk about writing letters and um and sending them sort of after you've died. And I thought, I'm writing the letters and sending them now. Why would I wait to tell you how much you mean to me when I'm already gone? You know, I I I want people to know how I feel about them. I I want to reconcile as much as possible, and that's just a gift. And you know, you don't need a cancer diagnosis to do that, but and that doesn't mean reach out to everybody who's ever wronged you. I'm not suggesting that, but you know, where you feel you're aligned with some need to reconcile. Um, yeah, because I don't I don't feel the need to reconcile with everybody who's ever, you know, had an issue with me. But yeah, it uh it was a blessing to to be able to have the time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yeah, I think that's it makes me think of the 12-step programs, um, the recovery community. That's you know, part of their step work is to go back and look at, you know, where you have resentments, the people you've wronged, and even resentments you have towards others. And then unless it will do that person harm, that you go and you have those difficult conversations, and it could just mean writing a letter again if you if you speaking with someone would do them more harm than it would be because it's it's really about them in in some senses, but it's very much about your healing, and that you get to you get that liberation from the things we hold in, you know, these these these resentments and bit and it's easier not to have those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah, because they can be we I feel you know when you're at this place in your life where I am, I might live, I might die. Of course, all of us are at that place, you know, we don't know what's gonna happen, but right it does make it easier on some level to take risks because you can always say, Hey, I'm dying of cancer. I like to say to people, hey, you're talking really neat to me. I'm dying of cancer, you know. And and seriously, I might diffuse it, but really, really, the risks. What what are the risks? You know, I I mean, uh, you know, like when I have an ailment with my body, I used to be also nervous. I I didn't like hurting my body. It was like a really big thing. Like I would never push my body too much because I don't want to hurt myself. And now it's like anything comes up, I'm like, well, I am dying. Does this really matter that I have a UTI right now? It sort of takes the pressure off.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Wow. Wow. And that is again, it's like this the irony that that this death entering your doorway gives more life.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Seriously. Isn't that a paradox, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, and it's something I would really love to explore more. Um I would I would love to have more conversations. I think this is a good place for us to wrap up because it just leaves it on this beautiful and yet very poignant note. A lot for our listeners to take in and consider for our own lives. And are we really truly living? Or are are we all are we just dying a little every day, you know, or just sort of preparing for our death rather than living? And so um I I really thank you so much for your courage and sharing this journey with us and just being able to be so open to the whole experience and share that with all of us so that we can live better regardless of how much time we have, regardless of what we're facing in life, because we're all facing stuff, right? That can feel like it's killing us. I think now more than ever, as a society, we are all facing this. So that detachment piece is really powerful. Um and I just I cannot thank you enough for being here.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Oh, it's such an honor. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

I really appreciate it. I look forward to more conversations.

unknown 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Me too. Yeah, thank you. Bless you so much, Lisa, and sending massive love over you and your journey. And I will be talking soon. And thank you to our listeners. Thank you for being here and uh being being present. May all of us experience that kind of liberation and surrender. It's very powerful. All right. Peace and out, everybody.