Margaret "Max" McLaughlin: Episode 10

Katy is joined by Max McLaughlin of the Cape Cod Chamber Writers group. 

Learn about Max's writing here: Margaret Maxwell McLaughlin

Max's Substack is here: Margaret Maxwell McLaughlin | Substack

Get SHORE LINES: STORIES FROM NEAR & FAR here: https://www.amazon.com/Shore-Lines-Stories-Near-Far/dp/B0GHVWR5CN

Follow Cape Cod Blue Economy Foundation on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:19

This is Katie Atchison, Executive Director of the Cape Cod Blue Economy Foundation, and this is a new episode of our podcast, Coastal Characters, and you know that because you're playing it, so good job. I am here with Margaret McLaughlin, aka Max. Did I say your last name correctly? Got it right. Sarah helps. We all know Sarah McLaughlin, so it's a little bit of a cheat. I'm also a Kyle McLaughlin fan, so it kind of rolls off the tongue. And Max is a one of the chamber writers. Will you tell people what that means first, and then we'll get into your whole backstory?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Sure. The Chamber Writers is a group of six individuals who started to meet actually out of the Academy for Lifelong Learning in 2020. However, when COVID came along, we had to meet on Zoom. And after we met in our class with June Callender as our facilitator, we all decided we wanted to continue meeting. And so we have been meeting now for probably five or six years to write every Friday and discuss whatever we've written. So it's just this wonderful group whose name has just come about because we had to claim one, and we thought in gratitude to the chamber, we would call ourselves the Chamber Writers.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

It's amazing. So how many of you are there?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, now there are six, one of whom has left to live in Syracuse area, but she is on Zoom often. So we're really five plus one other.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Five and one remote. Yes. Um and so six years, and you finally had to claim a name. Yes. And why did you have to claim a name?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Because we decided that we were going to actually publish some of our stories. When you think about six people writing one story for um, I would say six years every Friday, we have over 200 stories. So we decided why don't we try it and just see?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Amazing. So um we have a copy of the book in the office that's been circulating around. Um it's called Shorelines. Yes. Stories from Near and Far, and there's a section near and a section far, which is super cute. Um, how can folks get their hands on this?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yes. Um Shorelines Near and Far is the first of our collection that has been posted on Amazon Books. Okay. And you can get it under the name of Chamber Writers or under my name Margaret McLaughlin. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Well we'll put a link uh below the show for sure, so people can take a look at it and read some of the stories.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Um so there's a connection obviously between the writing, you're doing Shorelines, the Chamber, the Blue Economy Foundation, the water. Um let's go back in time because we've not really talked very much at all. You're in I see you every Friday.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

We just sort of like wave and then everyone's off to business. Um but what uh is your relationship with Cape Cod? Where does it start?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Oh, I knew you were gonna ask that.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Well, I will admit to my age on air, I'm very proud of it. I'm 75. Congratulations. And my very first memory of the Cape was when I was one.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Wow. A memory of when you were one. Yes, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

In Wellfleet. Um my father was a minister who, um, as you can imagine in those days was poorly paid. And one of his parishioners um in New Jersey, where he had his church, gave him $100 to take a vacation. And we came to Cape Cod and stayed at Pine Point Cottages in Wellflate with Lulie and Gus Gustafson. And for 16 years we returned and they always only took $100 for the rent. Oh wow. Yeah, so I fell in love with Cape Cod right from there. And subsequent to that, um I would come back when I was a poor graduate student with my then boyfriend who became my husband, and then we were married in 1984 McCartney site, Marconi site. And then I came back to the Cape to work. And um we've been here since I retired from the State Department in Washington, D.C. in um 2016. So the Cape has always been in my heart. We also went to UMass for graduate school. So Massachusetts has been always in our heart.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Amazing. It sounds like the Cape and its people just opened its arms to you at a very, very early time.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yes. I think beautiful. Yeah, I think the Cape was a place where in the 50s and 60s and then in the 70s and 80s was a welcoming place to anyone who wanted to adventure into either the arts or nature or just communities, small communities. And um, after my husband and I had been traveling around the world with Peace Corps and with USAID, it was nice to come home, home to a community. So thank you for asking about that, Kate.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Okay, beautiful. Um so DC was uh where your career space okay. So take us there for a minute. What did you if we can get into it, what did you do?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Sure, sure. Or what did I try to do?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

What were you trying to do? What I was trying to do. Well, um that sounds like a very decent everything everyone's trying to.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yes. No, I think Katie, you're absolutely right. Well, I was one of those idealistic folks um in the 60s who answered the call of JFK to join the Peace Corps. And so I went to Senegal and subsequently then to um Jamaica and then became a staff member for Peace Corps. Um, and stayed in the whole international development arena, um, moving on to actually the Corporation for National Service AmeriCorps program, where I was the director of recruitment, and then moved into USAID, where I was a senior education officer, and then moved to the State Department, where I was the director of a leadership training division at the Foreign Service Institute. So my whole career has been based on international education, particularly for women and girls.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

It was cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Um can you share uh an anecdote or story of someone that like you say you were trying to, right? Yes. Yes. You I imagine organizing these programs touched a lot of lives. Ah. Is there anyone that comes to mind that you want to share, like that just made the trying worthwhile?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Sure, sure. Well, um indeed I um am I I'm on Substack at 10maxer.com, and I write about a woman called Rachel Nidak. And Rachel and I met in Kenya when I was working on a project um called Here Sudan, Health Education and Reconstruction in Southern Sudan, um, which at that time was going through an agreement treaty between the North and the South, and there were tons of wars going on, unfortunately. And Rachel had been a woman whose husband had unfortunately died in a battle. Um, the um Sudan People's Liberation Army, he was a commander, and she at the time he passed decided that she was going to help widows. And so she ends up starting this group of women that would go into Southern Sudan to work with them, to organize them into how they could take control of their own lives. And she tells a story, and I'll start to weep in this podcast. Um, when we were sitting at a table in um Nairobi at a friend's house, she told the story of how she had gone up to one of the villages and had to walk for two or three hours to the village, um, and it started to be attacked.

unknown 7:57

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

And she and the women that with whom she was meeting um fled. And as they fled, they went through various villages, all of which had been attacked and were burning. And at one point she met um, or she looked down at the ground, and here was a a woman who unfortunately had passed away, and around her were two infants. Oh my goodness. And her comrade, um, her colleague said to her, Come, Rachel, come, Rachel, you're gonna be shot, you're gonna be killed, you have to leave them. And so she did, but as she walked away, um, and she said she went two or three miles, she realized that she had to go back. And so she went back, and as we were sitting at the table, I said to her, Well, what happened to those children? She said, Oh, they're my sons now and they're in college.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

And as you can see, I I just I sobbed. And she she put her arms around me. And when you think about what Americans do overseas, they do hardly anything in comparison to the people with whom they work.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

So um that was one person who completely impacted me.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, and she still is involved in the government. She's kind of on the outs now because they're having still some conflict. Um, but she was the gender director for the Southern um Sodan government.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

And she, yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. She her her all of her like maternal instincts sort of revved up, right? Yeah. And put her in that situation. Yeah. That's amazing. Yes. Wow. And I really like that statement you said, like the impact comes from the folks that are from that society. Absolutely. That in the past at least, and hopefully continuing on back through in perpetuity, that there are governments with the ability to organize enough to give those people the tools that they need to save themselves and to bring themselves up and sustain it. Right. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And and Katie, I think it's not that the government brings the tools. I think that people bring the tools to the government. Right. Okay. You know, she she really was someone who mobilized women whom you would never expect to be mobilized and work, and she did. She just motivated and was wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you for asking about that. Lovely. All right, so let's do a little bit lighter question for you. Okay. You've been around the world, lots of traveling. Yes. Favorite dish that you've never been able to replicate yourself.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Oh, that's easy. Um I would say that there is a Moroccan tagine that is absolutely fabulous. Um, and I was a training director in Morocco with Peace Corps for six months in 1985. And we would have these tagines, and I would just, I gained a ton of weight. I can tell you that right now. But that is one of the wonderful dishes that I wish everybody could taste.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

And the tagine is this is the the vessel that it comes in right with the tall litted pot. So it could be lots of different things.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Oh, you're right. Wonderful, Katie. How do you know?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

A little bit of Anthony Bourdain. Or somebody feed Phil, one of those two.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Good for you.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

But that that is so it can be lots of different kinds of communal foods, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

It's usually couscous with vegetables and some kind of lamb or beef. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

For Americans, it's kind of like the culinary equivalent to a Midwest casserole.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yes, yes. Or an Irish stew.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, there we go. So because it it can come in lots of different varieties.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

It is, it is. Do you have a tegine at home? Have you tried? No, but I have well, I have a pottery that looks like a tegine, um, but it's never used.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. That's really good. Um so then flowing, sort of connecting the pieces here of all of your travel and your relationships all the way into your creative side. Yes. What's um what's the link there? How do we get from saving the world to saving the world through your writing and general?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Oh, thank you so much. Um Well, um, when I retired from the State Department in um 2016, um, I wanted to write a book about my father, who was an immigrant from Ireland in the 1918s. And I went to the Library of Congress and I got my little, you know, corral, Carol, and my little shelf of books. And I started reading about Irish history in Belfast, particularly Northern Ireland. Um, and I realized that talking about my father wasn't going to be enough. That I really had to write about um the history from a long-term perspective. Um, I have relatives that came over from Scotland to um Northern Ireland, um, my grandfather, my grandmother on my mother's side, believe it or not, and my father also born in Belfast. And then I started to read about women, and I realized that my whole life had been dedicated to women. So, where were the Irish women heroes? And how could I write about that? Um and I never expected to write a book. I never did. Um, I expected just to do something for my family, you know, from the history. And as this writing class with June started at ALL, I started writing chapter by chapter. Um so it was the whole issue of how do I, in my retirement, when I don't have the work to work with women, I can somehow get the voice out of women. And so I now have three books, Beloved Reconciliation, um, which deals with three pieces of the history. And I just published my last one on World War II. Um, and it's just been fabulous to take the I was an English teacher at one point, um, to realize that I can't just retire. Um, I have to rewire.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yes, a good friend in graduate school told me, You're not gonna retire, you're gonna rewire. And I have. So to take that voice of the women with whom I had worked, move them into the literary genre, and to have this support group of five to six people around me for five to six years with a chapter every week, has enabled me to take that creative piece and do something with it that I hope has purpose.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

That's amazing. Uh in your research of your family history, was there anyone that popped out as like, oh, that's where I got that from? Or that person reminded you of any of you or your characteristics? There's there like, did anything resonate as like familial in that way? Um I'm always curious.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yes, thank you for asking that. Um I think my grandmother, my maternal grandmother who lived with us, um, who had met her husband in Belfast and came over first to Canada and then here to the States um in the 1900s, when I saw the actual um ship log of her and her mother coming here, um, I started to cry. And I remembered sitting at the table with her. Um, my mom was very active as the minister's wife going out into the community. So my grandmother was really my primary caretaker. And we would have tea in the afternoon. And Katie, she would tell me stories about her life in Belfast and walking along the loch. And um she inspired me to have a character look like this. And then when I read about so many women, you know, the Countess Marc V's during the 1916 um Easter Uprising, all these heroic women that took on the role of the risk of standing up against the British, um those characters started to weave in with my family. Now the books are not about my family, they're what I would imagine my family to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Not directly, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

No, no, no. It's not how you want your hip. Based on true historic. Well, it's very it's a historic fiction. Um and I think what happens most of the time, as my cousin who lives in Belfast said to me, you know, you never knew your relatives. And I said, Yeah, but I can make them up. So, Katie, that's what I did. Um each of the women represents a a part of the hope that I had of my ancestors.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

That's beautiful. All right, really, really silly little question. See if you remember. Was there milk in the tea that your grandmother made? Yes. Did she put the milk in first? Yes. Yes. How did you know that, Katie? Uh uh my my partner, uh their father was born in a pub in Dublin. So I've got some family tea in Ireland too. It's a funny thing. So for non-tea drinkers, like in America, a lot of people just because it's coffee primarily, they plop the milk in after or cream. In Ireland, there's two possible reasons why someone puts the milk in first. Uh-huh. Tell me. One is so that it doesn't stain the china. Uh-huh. The second is so that it doesn't scorch the milk. Oh my goodness. Isn't that wonderful? Thank you for educating me. And I just it's always funny to me how and it's a very different so in England in particular, it's a mix. But in Ireland, it's in Northern and the Republic of Ireland, it seems to pretty consistently put the milk in first. This is very like inside baseball Katie's head. I love it. I love it. Well, you're educating me. Thank you. But it's just a it's just a quirky little detail that I'm always curious, like serving everyone. So um thank you. Yeah, so milk in first is my way to go about tea too. I think it tastes better. But it's funny because one of my partner's aunts said that, oh, we always put the milk in first so we don't stain the china. I love that. Like, it doesn't, it's not in there long enough to stain it, but okay. Yeah, right.

unknown 17:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Yes, whatever you say, Auntie. Oh, I love that. Wonderful. Um, so uh the other pieces of it sounds like you've like we could probably actually talk for a long time and I could learn a million things about all these different sort of parts of your life, which would definitely not be on again, I think. But I want to know a little bit more about your process and your connection to write like how does so you you taught English, you've been a communicator and an organizer and educator. The the process of writing seems like something that um I don't want to say it's not a struggle, but it seems like something that came to you a little bit, like it was an or a more organic space to enter into versus film or songs or painting or right.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Well, um that's an excellent question, thank you. Um I think the organic piece of it was that I was always a reader. Okay. Always a reader. I remember as a child going to the library, and when we were in Well Fleet, we would always go to the Well Fleet Public Library. So for 16 summers I read, you know, so much. Um and then when I went to college, um I minored in English and started to write there and had some incredible individuals critiquing my writing. Um and then when I went into Peace Corps right after college, I wrote letters. That was the era from 1971 to 73 that you had the envelopes that you folded and mailed the airline, air mail envelopes, and you just wrote up the whole story of what was going on with you. So I was always writing, and then when I ended up in Peace Corps as a staff member, and then subsequently in the other federal agencies, I always had to write reports, and it kind of took away the creativity. Um and it was very functional because I learned to be succinct, um, which I am not now in my writing. No need to be. No. Um but I think in coming to the CAPE and retiring and realizing that at ALL, which was really the catalyst for this, I started in a poetry class there and then moved into the short story class. Um I was able to take the time to write. Um I also think, and this is an aside, um, I do life coaching at the Barnesville County Correctional Facility with women. Yeah. And the stories that they tell about their lives has just embellished my creativity. Although I'll never write about them because I don't want to be in any way violation of their confidentiality. But there's just so much that needs to be said about women these days. And as much as we have the audio podcasts, which are wonderful, and I'm so grateful you have me on, um, and we have TikTok and we have Instagram, um, there's something about being able to write it down for you know, ancestry and legacy and all of that that will stay that people can go back to Again It Again and read about themselves. Um so the creative process to me was just natural. It was a natural flow. But thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

I like that um that idea of writing being a more permanent or long last year. It's got more longevity, right? It's got a longer history, it's got a longer future kind of.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Yes, yes, yes. And Katie, I think there's something too, and I don't want to get uh too pontifical. Go for it. Okay, thank you. But um in in learning English, you know, to write, um, you start with the reading with infants. And in my graduate program um at um SUNY Albany, I was in the teacher corps um at the time, and we were learning new mechanisms to teach. And one of the reading teachers, I'll never forget, said, a child on a lap of a mother or father reading a book will be the best education that a child can have for the rest of her or his life. That the love you have being embraced by a parent while reading transfers to the love of reading. And I just thought, wow, that is phenomenal. And so the progression of early childhood development and reading, moving into high school, you know. It's just it's a phenomenal gift, I think, to young people as well as middle aged adults and uh seniors.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah. But uh yeah, there's that just that the way you describe that, that like that warm safety. Yes. Of being able like safety and exploring at the same time, right? Like reading stories of adventure while the comfort and warmth of your parents beating the city. That's right. That's really, really beautiful. That's right, Katie. Yeah. That is right. And we do know that there's so much uh worthy investment in the first 18 months of life that has economic and emotional and intellectual and societal benefits throughout life, which is really important. Reading is a a beautiful way throughout time, as far as I know, that telling stories has been a part of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Well, in international education too, the whole factor of young people out in the bush having a book to hear about a new world that they would probably never experience for their first ten years. And to be able to talk to them about what might you imagine, you know, about a satellite, you know, about a car, about this or that. Um, it really is opening our own American children, but other children to a world where they can do whatever they want to do if they can.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Yeah. And here's a really interesting thing you just reminded me of too. Having nieces growing up in England, um, now we're starting to get some crossover with some television because of YouTube, but children's books, like the the the the popular reoccurring generation after generation children's stories from continent to continent, from country to country are so different.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

They don't like I grew up on Dr. Seuss, Bill Pete, um, the little hedgehog family. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Grover. Yes. But my partner grew up in England, and it I think the only crossover maybe was Winnie the Pooh.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Everything else was so different. Yes. Maybe a Christmas story or two about the snowman and the red scarf. But like there's really different literature for young people. So the fact that you could share it internationally is so cool. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

It's extraordinary. It is. And Katie, the difference may be in the authors and the characters, but the morality and the values being taught are similar across. Um we worked, I worked with a group in um in um Iraq that was looking at children's education through um video. And it was kind of taking um Dr. Seuss and making it into a Muslim orientation. But the values were the same, and I shouldn't say but and the values were the same despite the characters being Muslim-oriented or Arab-oriented. And it was just exquisite to see across the various cultures how so many common values can be taught through different characters and different plots.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

That's so good. I love that. Yeah, that's so interesting. And I love I love going into children's book sections in different places, even different parts of the country. Yes. It's different, you know, because I I'm very New England I'm very New England.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Uh and so like Bill Pete is being a New England author. Yes. I don't meet a lot of people outside of my age group or above, or from this place, like South of Connecticut. I don't know anybody that grew up with Bill Pete. It's very strange. So um, so shout out to Bill Pete uh fans out there because absolutely gorgeous illustrations and really, really beautiful stories about it. Yes. It's okay to be different. Yes, lovely. Keep reading. Keep reading. Um and so let's talk about uh maybe one or two of your favorite inspiring authors or creators that that because you read a lot.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Are do you are there a couple that like a new book's coming, you've got to grab it, or is there one that you've gone back to? And here's one that I like if this is easier. But what author have you read over and over again?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yes, yes. Um well I am a traditional reader, but um classical reader, um, in the sense that um, you know, the Bronte sisters. Um coming from a woman's perspective, um I'll cut Emily Dickinson, I do. Um I read a lot of um what would I say, uh more mysteries. Okay. Yeah, in that I think the genre of uh mystery writing is something that in involves people thinking out of the box. And I think some of while we need to re historic fic um nonfiction, um I think we're bombarded by that on the radio and the TV and podcasts. And I think we have to open ourselves up to the imagination. Um so um right now I'm I've just finished a book um well I'm writing, I'm reading um Fair Play by Isabella Haggerty. And it is a mystery, but she goes back and forth in time, and I'm not quite sure if I get it yet. Oh, okay. So I'm very interested in how do people write nowadays to enable one to be creative and think out of the box. Um our um chamber writers have discussions all the time, Katie, about whether or not you explain or describe such that the reader can envision and take the meaning him or herself. And I'm of the ilk that any book that you read uh is a good book if you think differently at the end, or if you think about something differently. Um so I I, as I just said, unfortunately go back to the classics because every time I read those books again and again and again, particularly by women, I I keep thinking about what were they experiencing in their own lives as they wrote about um these men coming into their lives, their friendships with other women, the social classes, um the conflicts that were going on in the families. Um those themes are still relevant. Um so those those are the books that I read a lot.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Can you describe the difference or explain the difference between describe and explain? Yes. Okay. What's the difference between describing?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Sure, sure. No, absolutely, absolutely. Um it would be something like um he entered the room with a frown on his face and you know, a very garrulous voice, um, as opposed to um he entered that would be describing what he's doing. Um and you could also say he entered the room facing this conflict. And you have to sit there and go, now wait, how can I explain what someone looks like with a face in conflict, or what is he thinking, what is he doing, et cetera. Um so I think we try to describe a setting and rather than explaining exactly what it is. Um and I may not have been clear in explaining that.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah, I yeah. It's it's uh I think for readers they would understand you completely. Yes, right? Yeah, and for writers certainly.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

And if you look at a painting, okay Okay, the painting is in front of you, you can describe exactly what's in the painting. Sure. But what was the meaning behind that painting? What were the feelings of the painter? What are your feelings watching that? And I think sometimes we um you know the term is mansplain, you know. It's gotta have exactly the truth. And I don't think that's uh helping our society right now. I think we need to look at all sides and all ways of interpreting something. That's not to say that there isn't a consummate truth um regarding certain values, but I think there is a opening up to other people's points of view in how they interpret a a a written word. Yeah. Um, you know, what is democracy? You know, we can describe it a thousand ways, but what is it? But definitely what is conflict resolution, you know, what is reconciliation? Um I think there is a opportunity lost if we don't really delve into the meaning of certain words rather than just say this is what it says. And I think it does I completely agree with you spot on.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

But and I think it is um really beneficial, and I think this is what a lot of students get is delving into the word and all of its history and all of its implications, and it unlap it unlocks different parts of your your memory and your understanding and your comprehension, your empathy. That's right. For sure. That's right. And I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's why I read poetry, because you get to see words in different places from normal. Yes. Is it for the sound or is it for the space the way it sits on the page, or is it for the meaning? And it you can kind of mess around in all the different possible ways. And that's why I particularly like short poems. Yes. Because they have to be so precise. Yes. And that that's exactly what you're saying, right? It's like you can see, oh, it's shaped like a butterfly. Yes. Okay, but but what is it saying and doing to you that's why is it a butterfly kind of thing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

And what does it mean to you as the reader of that book? What's your engagement with it? Exactly, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Oh, I love this. Oh, good. Um, so a couple of sort of we'll we'll sort of wrap this up, but I definitely want to have you back when you finish your book so you can give us a full review. Um but we'll put a link to your sub stack, we'll put a link to um shorelines for people to find.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

I ask everybody one of two questions.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

I know which one's coming.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Oh, you do? Yes, because ice cream ice. Yes, because Max asked me, what are we gonna talk about? I said, you and your favorite ice cream. So, what is your go-to ice cream for? I'm so delightful. I'm vegan now.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Congratulations. No, no, no, no, it's terribly.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

I'm I'm conveniently vegan. I won't turn down a chocolate chip cookie, so I have to sometimes have any difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

But yes, um, there's options out there. I know, but I haven't found them. So if you can tell me later, tell me. But nonetheless, um I did think about this, and I love sweet Carolines on Route 130. And um is it in Sandwich or Mash B? It's actually Forrestale. It's in Forestale. It's in Forestale. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um I used to just, I'm very um unfortunately very traditional. I used to love their vanilla ice cream. And then I would come home and I would put some syrup and blueberries and strawberries on it. But um, I love Sweet Carolines. It's just an absolutely fabulous place, and the ice cream was just great. So they'd have to up their vegan game, is what I'm hearing. Uh yes, but I think Smitty's has taken them over, so we'll have to see. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

I know Polar Cave have some, Cape Cod Creamery have some. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Gotcha, girl. Um but yeah, the vegan thing, was there a reason?

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Can I just um as I was writing, you know, I was thinking, is this enough? Um and one of the women in our um short story class, Sheila Place, is a true environmentalist. And um I would hear her talk about what her work was with the UUC on environmental issues, and I thought, what am I doing on the environment? I was doing nothing, you know, I was just not eating very well from an environmentalist point of view. And then when COVID came along, I said, Well, I might as well try this. And good friends were vegans, and um I did. Now I will tell you it's been a bit hard with my husband, who is definitely into chicken, fish, and meat. And so he's had to adjust, God bless him. Um but um the first was definitely from an environmental point of view, and then um I just I love it. Um actually, despite being bored by some of the recipes, sure I will tell you that I'm not a very good cook. Um, but I think it has made me feel healthier too.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah. Thank you for asking. Yeah, we did the uh my partner went in for the environmental reasons first as well, starting with choice of milk. Yeah, researching which kind of milk uses the least amount of water. So that's a that's another podcast we could do together. Yes, definitely. Um, so we're doing vegan ice cream, we're classic vanilla, sneak it home and put a bunch of stuff on it. Yes. Love, love, love, love, love that. Awesome. All right. Anything else you want to share with people before we wrap up? Any little tidbits, maybe a little piece of advice for someone that is thinking about the Cape or thinking about writing or thinking about Peace Corps or AmeriCorps?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Oh, there's just so much. Um I would say, and I come to it from a life coaching perspective, um, go for where you're happy. Go for where you're happy. What would make you happy, and where on the Cape can you find that happiness? Oh, that's beautiful. And then secondly, um, how can that happiness help others?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

That resonates with me.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, where can you on the Cape, particularly we who are retired, you know, um we've had our wonderful lives elsewhere. Um we fortunately are here in the most beautiful place in the world, and I swear to God, my favorite city in the whole world, and it's not even a city, is Provincetown. And I've been all over the world in these fabulous places. I'm very exotic. But um, how can you be happy and help others? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

And that's where you get your work with the Sheriff's Department. Yes, yeah. Yes, that's beautiful. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Thank you so much, Max. Oh, thank you, Katie, for this opportunity. Joy.