When You Don't Fit the "Christian Box" with Anthony Evans

In this episode of Full Fledged, JC and Priscilla Shirer sit down with Anthony Evans for an honest conversation about faith, mental health, and the pressure many people feel to fit into a “religious box.”

Anthony shares his personal journey with therapy, emotional health, and learning how to separate genuine Christianity from expectations created by church culture. Together, they talk about why so many believers feel like they don’t belong, how faith and mental health actually work together, and what it looks like to follow Jesus without performing for people.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So I'm just like, y'all can think whatever, you can feel whatever. I'm not concerned with what you think about me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

You're like it's not my responsibility at all. How do you differentiate um like not being concerned with what people think at all, or like really listening to people who are saying they're concerned? I think the expectations of cultural faith can really mess people's souls up.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Yeah, and I love that you said cultural faith. Because you're not talking about the Bible. You're not talking about biblical principle honoring God. You're not talking about that. You're talking about the stuff we put on it.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Because it's churchy or the people around us are saying this is the way it's supposed to look.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Just culture in general. This is how we do it here. And I'm like, no, this is how you do it here.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

And we are back with the one and only homie podcast, where we come in our onesies and at home on a couch, doing what we do every day. Nothing different. So yeah, that's it. What do you got, Mom?

SPEAKER_03 1:00

And you're with your esteemed co-host.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

Yeah, my my amazing. I wouldn't lesser than is not the word that I would use because we're equal in God's eyes, but one more charismatic than the other, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Who's more charismatic me or you?

SPEAKER_04 1:12

You is definitely who I was talking about. Yeah, you. Yeah. Um, but anyways, yeah, mom.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Tell us about you. How are you feeling today? You good? I'm feeling great. I'm glad to see you. You look cozy in your onesie. Always. And it is the homie podcast for two reasons. We are homies.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

My dog.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

I'm sorry, that's too far. Yeah, dog is too far. Homie works out.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

That's the line.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

And also because we're cozy and we do this in our pajamas, and we are at home. And by home, we really mean something special this time around because we're at my childhood home. So this is where I was raised since I was seven. My parents bought this house when I was seven. It's still in our family. And essentially, that means that's where he was raised. Because we'd bring him over here to be with his grandparents, and Nani would make pancakes, and you would open up Christmas gifts over here and wrestle with your uncles and your cousins.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

And like I've said in other episodes up to this point, um, I'd sit on this couch and Uncle Nini would rent endless movies. That's when I knew he wasn't broke all the way.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah, because he'd rent movies for his nieces and nephews.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

There was no limit ever. It was just like, just pick a movie.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

You want to watch another one? Really? Yeah, it was good. Every family needs an uncle Nini.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Uncle Nini. Like, like, even if you he didn't have you wouldn't know. He's just gonna, he's gonna help you out. That's right. If your parents don't want to get you something, he's gonna be the one to get it. So we already introduced our guest, Mom. I guess you might as well finish it off.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Absolutely. We are so excited to have a guest because we haven't had many guests on our show, but we have a special guest. He's actually not only my baby brother and not only your uncle, but he's actually the reason this podcast exists.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

He really is, and I don't know if people know the story. We'll tell it after we introduce him.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Please welcome to the full-fledged homie podcast. Anthony Evans Jr. aka Uncle Nene.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yes. What's this the homie podcast thing that's happening?

SPEAKER_03 3:09

The whole title of the podcast is Full Fledged.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Right, that was it. That was full-fledged. Uh-huh. And then the tagline on the episode, uh, I think I said the homie podcast just being funny or something. And mom was like, I'm not one of your little friends, I'm not your homie, I'm not one of your little friends. And I was like, Mom, I meant homie like cozy. And she was like, Oh, well, now I kind of want to be your homie, actually. Oh, good. And so everybody the homie podcast just kind of stuck. So people just said, but also it's full-fledged.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

The official name.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

I was like, Yeah, the official name is five. But we are the homie podcast. Okay, got it. I understand. I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

I'm glad you came. And thank you for um amusing us and wearing a onesie.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

No problem. It's it's Christmas time, so it's it's not saying what time it is.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

But also, you're not only the reason why, which you guys can tell the story about how you inspired JC to start a podcast, but also the reason we even wear onesies and know about these onesies from like eight, maybe seven or eight years ago. You started wearing onesies and you bought onesies for a bunch of us in the family. This is the same onesie you bought me like eight years ago. Oh, yeah. Oh wow. I just wear it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

The one that I was wearing like in the first episodes that uh we recorded two days ago, it was the black one that's been the original since the OG. Yeah, you still wear that? I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Still wear it.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

That's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

So you're the originator of a lot of things apparently that are happening. So why don't you start before we dive into questions for you and just tell why what the conversation was like if you even remember about how you kind of inspired JC or JC, what the conversation was like that got you to a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

I can say my vantage point is maybe a reminder. So I was like, hey mom, we should do something. And I I don't know if you were sitting there or not, or maybe that we called you later, but uh, and I was trying to get ideas from you what to do. And then you were like, I don't know, I'll call you back. And I was like, okay, cool, you know, not thinking about it. And then you were like, a a podcast might be something that you want, you're your mom could do. I was like, okay, well, I don't know what to name it, or I gave you name ideas, you were like, This sucks. Just give me a break, and then let I'll call you back. I was like, okay. So you can't you were like full-fledged. And I was like, what does that mean? And then you explained the whole process of fledging, which is when the mother bird kicks the baby bird out of the nest, and you just just helped brainstorm the whole idea. I was like, hey, this is my cover art. You were like, Nope, that sucks. Throw it away. I got someone that can make it better. And so you just had your hand all on this thing from the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yeah, that's yeah, that's how I remember it pretty much. Generally, that's how I remember it. You know? I didn't say I didn't say it that well, maybe I did say it that harsh. I wanted everything, I wanted it to look right and be right.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

Yeah, and but guess what you do though? You're very like perfectionist, maybe almost to a certain degree when it comes to certain things. Yeah, you like everything to be very like bougie might be the right word, actually.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Because details matter a lot. Yeah, and they matter to you.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Have you always been a detail-oriented person, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I don't I think so. I think thinking now about my room that I grew up in right back there down that hallway, I remember liking things orderly. Orderly the way they go, like organizing the cables from the what I forgot, TurboGraphic 16 was the game system back then. I had like the whole Yeah, I I remember wanting things to be right.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Or right with what the way I viewed them as right. Yeah. And then and then John John would come in there and t tear everything up.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

So here we are in this house, which is well, it's the only house you've really known. Because you would have, if I was seven when we got here, you were three or something like that. So this is the only house you would recollect. Um, so our entire childhood. If you could think of one or two of either your favorite memories, either because they were funny, or um something that just stuck with you because it was meaningful, whatever. Like, what is something sitting in this space right now that you're like, man, this is what I think of, or what I remember from growing up here?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Uh well, right now I'm thinking about uh like Christmas Eve and trying to sleep and not being able to, and putting my ear on that door right there to and I could hear mommy and daddy putting presents out. You know what I mean? It was like, you know, my moment of like, wait, is Santa Claus are Santa Claus my parents? You know what I mean? So uh so that I I I remember that and I remember playing in the backyard with with Johnji, with Jonathan. Uh yeah. I was thinking about that earlier. Like we one time Auntie was here watching us and we went and got to play in the mud outside. I just thought it was the greatest day ever, just to be in the mud in the alley. Like there's anyway, just random, just random little those those are the main ones.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

And then us just running around here. It's just kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

And when we were little, this seemed huge. Like it seemed enormous to me. The ceiling seemed so high. You probably can't see that the the ceiling in this image, but I mean, this is a nine-foot ceiling. Like, it's not, I think my sons can actually stand up and just touch the corners, the line right there. Yeah. But to us, it was like the biggest thing we'd ever seen. It just seemed like the biggest house. Um, but it has now it just embodies like the coziest, homeiest memories for us, and now for our kids, which is crazy. You know what I remember is the smell of um food. Oh, mommy cooking. Yeah, mom cooking, the sounds of that, the pressure cooker. And the smell, the yeah, the pressure cooker, you know, the old school pregnant, not an Instapot, the old school pressure cooker where the top, that little knob goes and hearing that and smelling her cooking. Um, I it just transferred to some of the memories I hope to create for y'all, you know, where you smelled bread baking and stuff like that. So, anyway, good memories here in this house. What conversation are you wanting to have with your uncle today on the podcast, JC? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

No, so I'm just uh, you know, nothing crazy. Uh just wanted to ask you a question. This is very general. So just what are some things start like young that like you feel like you experienced or went through in your childhood? Could be that could be whatever you want it to be, um, that shaped how you are now, like maybe experiences, maybe how you were treated, or like were or things that you learned about yourself growing up, like anything that kind of is like, oh well, I went through that, did that, whatever. And it kind of is correlated to how how I am now in the world. Oof. There's a I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

There's that's uh it's a big question. It can be it can be whatever. It could be, you know, whatever. So what one more time, what what from childhood kind of formed who I am now? Something from childhood. Like how you grew up, you know. Um a positive thing that formed me is watching Nani and Poppy just do what they were called to do and figure it out. It was the whole figure it outness of me and all of us. I thought that was normal for people to just figure it out. It knows really not a no. You can you can figure out a way around the no, and and that's just one person telling you.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Like I just watched resourcefulness, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

I watched them figure it out. And so that now that's just a major part of who I am and what I do. And I didn't know that I was learning a skill. I just thought that's that's what life is. And then later now, people are always like, you just can figure stuff out. You just sit there and figure. And I thought that's what that's what you're supposed to be able to do. That's that's what it was. That's that's a positive thing. A negative thing is that not that you asked for a negative. No, that's just great. Yeah, a negative thing is that I was quiet. I was the middle child and considered a peace, a peaceful child. Right. But I wasn't, yes. You were the peaceful one? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

His countenance was peaceful, meaning he wasn't high main, he wasn't a high maintenance kid where mom and dad were worried, is he okay, we gotta do something for him? Because he was just kind of quietly entertaining himself. Okay, I'll I'll I'll come back to that.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah, uh, yeah, quietly entertaining myself, but had a lot going on on the inside, and Nani and Poppy didn't know that. So then I thought, I need to to be seen, I need to do something. Like I need to, I need to to be valuable, I need to be do something. And so that became negative in my adult life because I had value issues unless I was doing something.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

That's very interesting. That is interesting. I I kind of want to just I guess stay there for a second. Yeah. Like what do you think led you to bottle it up? Do you think it was because you didn't want to feel embarrassed or what like what was being the peaceful one, just just thinking that that's what you need to stick to the label.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

If that's my role, you would stick to the role. Yeah, I'm not I I don't even know that now you know that. Yeah, then you're not thinking about that. I just yeah, I just thought that's what it is. Like I and I'm an internalizer anyway. I can when I feel things and think I just kind of get sit there and it all goes in like that's kind of how I am anyway. So I just thought that was normal.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

But yeah, I mean, I I guess I can kind of relate to that not in the same label, but as in I felt like I was always the like the the one that was labeled, like a hard worker, like like whatever, whatever. And so whenever you don't feel like working hard, I guess working hard is kind of a positive thing, but like you try to mold your actions to fit the label that everybody else puts on you. Yes, like he's the easy one. Yes. You need to be easy. Whenever sometimes you don't maybe don't need to be easy, you need to be hard in certain areas to figure things out, you know. So, like, I guess trying to encourage or what what would you tell to the person that's like has a label from their coworkers or has a label from their parents, their their their siblings, their their classmates, whatever, that you you encourage them to be like, well, no, you don't actually have to abide to the label that they give you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, you you don't. And you and you don't have to silence yourself if you have if you have a need. If you if you actually need something, it's okay to speak up about that and speak speak up for yourself. That's that that's the the the baseline principle is it it would have been okay. I I I remember talking to um talking to Nani and Poppy, I think it may have been here in the back room. They had no idea they were like, they had no clue. Yeah, they had no idea. They they they said they used to take me to uh Pine Cove, the camp we grew up going to, they and they would drop me off at the at the barn. And and mommy said she would be driving off thinking, he's just so easy. Like we can just drop him off at the barn to be with the horses and he's fine. And they'd be driving off, and I was thinking, why do they just drop me off here? Why don't they stay? But they didn't know. They thought these are so easy. Like we just and he'll do that and then we'll go do this, and then we'll come back. And they had no, I would just watch him and be like, I guess I'll just go in here and that was the whole that was so I think speaking up, they they they said that later. If they would have known that, then they would have stayed. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

And that's such a this is such a great conversation, actually, on both sides of the coin. Because I'm hoping that there's somebody that is 15 that is watching this or is 14 that is watching this and is thinking now, oh, I should tell my parents the way I actually feel about this thing that they're doing. Because if you have well-meaning, decent, good parents, they would want to know like so that they can switch the dynamic to help accommodate something that they they probably don't realize is a problem. Because mom and dad were good parents. They they really thought you being with the horses was what you wanted.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

And that you were fine in that context. And so as a parent, I can see how it's devastating to learn later that something you thought you were doing for your child that was great, they didn't register it or absorb it that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Right. Yeah, I think that that's huge. And I and I think fine you you mentioned the kids, like a 15-year-old right now, being able to speak to their parents and say that some parents are open and willing to hear that, and then there's some who aren't. So it's kind of like you have to figure out, be strategic about figuring out a place where your feelings are validated. It could be a school counselor, it could be your a trusted friend that's grounded, not not the ratchet friend, like the trusted ground, like you need to figure out a place where your feelings can be validated and you could actually work through things in real time.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Um, because they don't go away. Your feelings will stay bottled up unless you find a place to put them.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

So, what would you say to the the other side of the coin, like the the older person who or the parent, the counselor, someone who's put in a position over some like a kid or a younger person? What would you what advice would you give them being on that side where you could be like, oh, you're not gonna be able to do that? Like what are they looking for? Like not even looking for, but like how do they need to act to make sure that they can be a person for the young person? Does that make sense? Like what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

I I think uh utilizing empathy is is huge to be like uh to think about somebody in in the in the realm of uh how you may feel if you were in that scenario and then making yourself available to somebody available. But for the person who grew up who now is 40 and never got those feelings out or validated, you still need to do that. Because if you're ever triggered, you'll go back to acting like a 15-year-old. Like you'll go back to the place where the injury happened. That that's what happens. So I I would just tell them it's just as important for you now to be working through that and talking through stuff. And I I'm I'm just a big proponent of all that because it's been so beneficial to me to not live with a storm inside of me. Like you can, you can you can work through that now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Yeah. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Oh right. Well, okay. Um, cool. That was how I I don't know, I guess in the age range, but keep going. Like oh, childhood story, like move into the ladder, you like keep going, you know, just along the line. Like high school.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah. How was high school experience for you? You had great friends. I I remember that about high school.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

My seniors for you. They were juniors, and I wanted to fail so I could be with them. That's that's that's I really contemplated failing my senior year so I could stay with my friends and do another year with them. That's that was that's funny. Yeah, it was it was a legitimate thought because I just had such a group of friends. You did.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

I remember y'all hung out.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, just had a great group of friends. Um, high school was still some of that. It was still just kind of like until I met those people. Oh, nice. Yeah, it was just kind of like I don't I don't know. I didn't, I wasn't I played a couple years of sports and wasn't a sports guy. It just wasn't a thing. Um yeah, that that's that's what I remember. Is it kind of just being blah until I met those friends? And then um yeah, I'm trying to think anything specific in high school. I think I was just still trying to find me, like what's who who's who am I if I'm not on and performing and making everybody okay?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

It's it's funny because I feel like even how I I guess experience you now, and based off of what you just said, like I wanted to be held back just to stay with my friends. You've always been a community driven person. Was that something that you just came to as you got older? Is that something that's just always been there? Like what's always been there.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Like one yes, liking bringing people together in that that my the people who work with me now laugh and are like, this might as well be Sherman James Christian camps because you're always trying to like create a vibe where everybody feels good being together and that that I've always been.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

They're having fun. You want experiences and moments and memories and all that.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

That's I've always been that way. So I think that's that's been a part of my makeup. And when something beautiful like that happens, I want to maintain it because I know it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't always come easy. Finding groups of people who are on the same plane and operating on the same the same kind of energy, you know. Sound very LA.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Which is why graduating from high school and going to Liberty University was hard for you.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Because you lost not only the to clarify, he's not saying Liberty University is horrible. No, he's saying his experience there was very difficult in part because you were leaving away the leaving this community of people. You we live in Dallas, Texas. So you were not only leaving your high school and your people, you were going to the other side of the country. You knew no one, and the community didn't come easy there when you first got there.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yes, there were a few friends that came easy, but again, it was a mag it was a magnified version of I'm on the inside going crazy, and everybody's like, he's the easy one. He can go to Liberty. And I'm and I'm at Liberty thinking, How did I end up here?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

How first talk about that? How did you end up at Liberty University?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Well, I was singing, I I didn't think take singing that seriously, but Daddy heard my my both dad, my naughty and poppy both heard me sing, sent a tape, a literal VHS tape of me singing to Liberty, and they put me in a a PR group for the school at that point called. Called Sounds of Liberty. Yes. So that was, and it was intense. That was a wild amount of singing and rehearsals, and it just went, it was like what you do with basketball, like that much in that intense. And I didn't even like it. I didn't like singing like that. Yeah, yeah. So that that happened. And there were some friends there that I still have from that first year, especially.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

Um, describe that. What did it look like to be on the Sounds of Liberty in 1996? 96. Well, it's not that bad. I was that was not that bad.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Oh, like that was thinking ago.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Yeah, I was thinking it was gonna be like 80s.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

I was thinking 80s.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Oh my goodness. Yeah, no, I yeah, my bad. My bad dog. I ain't never whore.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

So it's not that bad. He tries to age us. I mean, he just in his mind, we are 123 years old. I not even like that. Even me?

SPEAKER_04 20:17

That's no, no, not you.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

That's I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

I just the the the the year didn't connect with how I experienced you. Now her though, mom. Look, she's your mom, so that's different.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

On the other hand, so describe when you say you had this intense schedule as a first-year student on the Sounds of Liberty, rehearsal every day for two or three hours, and then on the weekends, every weekend, we would travel, or it was travel with Dr.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Farwell, or do our own concerts, or be singing at Thomas Road. So it was one of the one of them. You're either on a plane, a bus, or you're having to go sing at Thomas Road. And if you go on the plane or a bus, you miss class, so you have to figure out they give you an excuse to not. But so it was just this game of catch up and learn these songs and know all these songs. And I came late, so I had to learn. They were already on stage singing. I sat in the row, front row and watched like eight shows, and then I jumped up there and started singing. It was and it was just an intense environment that I I wanted to, you know, go to Texas AM. Like I wanted to be a a veterinary.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

What does it call FFA? What is it called?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

That's what I was in in high school.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

FFA. Like Anthony. See, I think people do know that know you, they know your love for horses. But Anthony's always been an animal person. He loves barn, farm, how um horses.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Outside, yeah. Outside. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

So you he would have gone to college. Do you know that? Like he would have gone into that industry.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Really? Like for veterinarian animal stuff. I didn't know. I didn't, I don't think I like I I don't think I knew that. That's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

It was it was really only because he got a scholarship to sing at Liberty that mom and dad were like, Well, you go on Liberty because you can sing.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah, and it's interesting because obviously, as you're describing, that that's not really what you wanted to do. That's you know, um, it was Hard going when you first got there. The reality is that even that hard, that's not what I would have preferred, has shaped the last 30 years of your like you've been doing it. Not only has singing just been something you do, you do it excellently. I mean, man. You fill rooms when you do it. People want to hear you sing. Even recently, you just were at the Museum of the Bible where you're doing whole shows where people are like, they can't believe you can sing like that. You know, they want to hear you sing. And it came out of a basically an experience where that was not what you would have preferred. And then God used it to redirect your whole situation.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yes, very, very much so. Very much so. Daddy said it always. He was like, Okay, your feelings will follow your feet. And that's what happened. I started to fall in love with the thing after I started to do it. It took it took a second though.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah. So being a singer, like whereby I think everybody, maybe they don't know. Yeah. You can sing. Yeah, like real. Like really, like there's people that can sing.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

But there are people out here with whole um, you know, deals, industry deals, and and really it's auto-tune. Really, they need they need everything around them to actually make them sound like a singer. And you're one of the few people that acapella with nothing except your voice can move an entire room emotionally and deepen their souls because your voice is just so pure.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

And I have a hilarious story about that. Okay. I tell Uncle Nini almost every time I see him. So about a year ago, maybe I don't even know. Um, Uncle Nini came to Liberty and um was in our locker room. We were watching film, and my coach was just like, Hey, uh Anthony, I know you can sing. You try to come up in front of the locker room and give us something, you know, a little something one, two. Uncle Nini, I could tell he was like, because I know you, you were like, no, but you were like, you what came out was yes, but you were like no internally. But you said yes, came in the locker room and sung holy forever. To this day, every time I see, they they are like, I have never ever heard anyone sing like that in my entire life. Like my teammates, it's not expecting they've like, they've they like how is he not like the the the number one singer in the world? Like they were and they were they're genuinely so serious. Like it's it's been a year over a year now, and they tell me that every time. And so, like it, it's like it's every time they see me. So it's hilarious how I don't know if you know the way to that, just because you, you know, whatever. I don't, yeah, right. But you actually like, you know what I'm saying? It's he's an incredible singer.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

And I think that because you love production so much, which is also something we were gonna get to, you love production, you love the experience, you love the music, like you, the musicality of it is important to you. But I think because people hear you with so much around you all the time that it shocks them when you are just singing. Like right now, you're posting a lot of reels where it's you and a piano.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

And I think people are like it blesses me every morning. I know that. I'd be like, man, this is the great way to type the morning.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Yeah, and it's kind of shocking because people are like, oh, oh my gosh, just him sounds like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

You know, that's so that's really great.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Yeah, okay. I want to ask another question before we move past college. Okay. Kind of off track, but I think it's I think it's interesting. All of us at one point or another have been in a position where we've been the only black person in a particular situation.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

We kind of grew up in situations where every now and then it would be that way. Right. I want to know what the hard parts of that experience were like for you because at the time, Liberty University would have been a very white uh uh university. And of course, Sounds of Liberty, you were the only black singer if I recall. Were there any nuances about that that actually were difficult?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Looking back now, I feel like that's crazy. It's crazy how much um it felt normal to be in uncomfortable scenarios like that. That that's not normal. I like made it okay and normal. And no, and this is at not at anyone in particular. It was just a very um an environment where you're unbeknownst to yourself being asked to be like everybody else in all ways, and then you're acceptable. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, and that that was a part of and again, this is not at anyone. I have to be careful because it sounds like but the way that I sing, even even now, you know, it's still not like like this gritty gospel sound, but I was kind of told in different scenarios to iron out, take out the higher notes, take out the runs, and then come sing with us. So it kind of was like, oh, that's that's not that's not good. Because now well, it just the this the tide has turned so much now. Yes, where that's so celebrated, I'm like, I was told to not be this. And and it's just hitting it a lot of it hits me now when I see how music has changed so much and how there have been outliers to find their way around the industry. What we do is is celebrated now. But before I was there as a token, but yeah, but don't sound like that.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

So it's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

And I'll give you, you know, an illustration also from my own life that's very similar, similar as you were saying that. It just came to my mind, you know, at the high school we went to for a minute there, I was the only black cheerleader.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

And it was the exact same thing. Where if if my hair, if all of our hair has to be uniform, we have to wear our hair the same way so that it all looks uniform. But if my hair doesn't do that, then what you're asking me to do is really to put on myself a standard that is not natural to me. So then I have to modify myself chemically, my hair and stuff, to make it look like something that actually isn't me. And that's a small way, it's the same thing where you realize later on, because now our hair in its natural form is celebrated. Right, right. But back then it's like you don't even realize you're being asked to not be yourself in order to fit in with a a larger group dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Right, right, right. Yeah. So I I did experience quite a bit. I and I would make jokes about it. It was obvious. Like I'm the only, I'm the only black person here, but it but uh now it's just it's just so different. The way I would handle myself is so different.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah, because you're more mature now. You can see it through mature eyes, where in the moment it was probably, you know, uncomfortable, you don't want to cause alarm, you don't want to, you don't want to make other people uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

And and now, you know, with the lens of maturity, you're able to see I should have spoken up. Yeah, I should have been more clear, I should have been myself.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

I think this is a great segue because I was just talking to mom about this right before we started. I was like, man, Uncle Nini is so good at being different. Like, I know I heard your journey about music. I'll stay on music topic right now. Um, like you were in that situation, and I want you to tell it about how you did, like you were saying, you didn't really fit in. They wanted you to take them all, but then at a certain point, you were like, actually, no, I'm gonna just do my own thing and pave a way that most people haven't paved before. Right. And so can you tell us a little bit about that, about how you kind of transition that into music and actually like, no, I'm gonna be learn to be good at difference.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, I didn't know that I was doing that at that point, but my I made my first album and it was kind of all over the place because I didn't, I I didn't have AR, so I didn't have anybody telling me. I just thought, good songs, good, I could sing, so let's make an album, just innocently make an album. So that didn't it, people were trying to figure out what are you? What what what what are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 29:22

So you didn't have AR. For somebody that doesn't know what you mean by AR, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Artist and repertoire. So so the the label that I was with, which is I'm so grateful for, they taught me basically you you bring us an album and then we'll promote it. So go make an album. But I just made the album. Yeah, I knew I knew different people, I had different backgrounds. I knew Kirk, obviously, who's one of my mentors, and then I met a lot of people in Nashville, but those sounds are so different. But I wanted both the sounds on the album because that's who I am, you know, all this stuff. So, bottom line is the first album worked enough for them to want to do a second one, but they were like, we need you to focus your sound on the second one, and let's focus on the CCM sound, which is at that point a lot of crunchy guitars, and you know, it was the that those years where Jeremy Camp and myself were the same time, but that was that was the sound.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

Who we love hi Jeremy in 80. They're phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

But they needed me to sound like that. Like that, not not like Jeremy, but just that that that world of music, yes, yeah. And so that's where being disingenuous to myself started musically, and I was recording the songs and doing what I thought was the right thing to do, which is okay, if you want to fit here, but I remember thinking this is not me, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it anyway. And so I to this day, there are some songs on that album that I like, but that didn't work at all. That like I think pe I think anybody being disingenuous to themselves, it comes across. Like it just it just some somehow an audience or our listeners can smell a rat. They can tell when it's like, this is not genuine. Anyway, at any rate.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

And can I just say, just to interject here, one of my memories from that time, because this is in your first two or three uh record is um one of the things I remember about your letting go album, I remember when I saw the cover of it being confused because you're not on the cover.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

It's like right underneath your face to your waist. It's this part of your body, something like that. And and and I remember going, why in the world are you not on the cover? And it is because they needed to kind of not put face forward that you It wasn't kind of.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

It was we don't you don't we don't want the fact that you're black to hurt your career. So let's keep his face off the cover.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

Yeah. These are the kinds that seriously, those are the kinds of decisions that that folks who are trying to make sure you fit into the box, right? Let's hide whatever we need to hide to make sure you get in there first. Then we can let them know the real deal later. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Which there was a so many apologies about that, even back then. Like after that record came out, my manager at the time was like, I am so sorry that I did not that I encouraged you to not put your face on the cover of this album. He was just like, I feel crazy that actually was in a meeting and said, I all of them said that, just so you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Yeah. And and you know, I don't want to get too far off the story, but it I think this little pocket that we happen to be talking about, which I'm probably the one talking about it, but it's it's so important because that was 25 years ago. Okay, well, fast forward to last year, there's a situation that your uncle was in where he was asked, literally, we would love for you to sing at this event, but actually, if you could smooth out your sound a little bit for this, um, that would be better. I don't know the exact words they said, but they're just kind of casually, lightheartedly, if you could just make it sound like this. He had to go back to them later and say, you need to understand what you were asking me. It's inappropriate to ask anybody with an ethnic sound, an ethnic voice, whatever, to smooth it out because what you're saying is you don't want me to bring my full self as I am into this context. That's an inappropriate and that happened last year.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

So I think it's important for people to recognize that the individuality had that someone has culturally, ethnically, they bring all of that to the table. And the Lord doesn't need them to modify that in order for it to be useful in any setting. They need to sound like themselves and be themselves.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah. Anyway, that's my little soulbox for the day on that. What's wild to me is that if you're asking me to do that, I'm like, because people know that I don't say I don't sound. If you're talking about a genuine gospel sound, that's not me. So to ask me to iron out what I'm doing is like, what?

SPEAKER_03 33:34

I don't even And also at this stage in your career.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Oh, yeah, I'm never doing that.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

You're grown. You you've been, I mean, you're you've been doing this for 30 years. So to me, at this point, if someone is asking you to come sing, they know what they're getting because you are who you are. Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Like yeah, I'm like you you listen to my music, that's why you're inviting me. If you didn't want my music, don't invite me.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Yeah, and it's an insulting, it's an insulting question to be asked um to not be yourself at this point. So at any point, but um the point is at the beginning of your in of your record label in the record industry or in the not the record industry, the industry, music industry. Um basically you found yourself, people trying to modify your sound and your package you a certain way, and you went with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

And so at what point did you say right after that?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Right after I went with it, the song, you know, I was still working, and that was great, and people were still asking me to come, but I was like, this is this isn't it, and the label knew it wasn't it, so we decided to part ways because we couldn't do a third album. It was like, where do we go from here? Yeah, but I was still being asked to go sing places live because that you can't take that from some. I mean, it may not work on the radio, but you can sing it. It worked in the room. So I was getting asked to go places, and that's when I made an album just in a house, in a studio that was a house in Nashville, and invited my friends from Kirk's world, who I had been traveling with at that point. He's saying Kirk.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

It's Kirk Franklin he's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

With all my friends I traveled with with him. We flew him to Nashville, we sat in a house and made an album of covers. But I was picking covers that were known in the CCM world, like Everlasting God, Everlasting God and Christ Alone and Glory to the King, which wasn't that big of a song. But still, I I covered CCM songs with eight with a twist, twist, twisted sound at that point. And that album, I remember that album came out, it was just me, just put it out, and I looked at the iTunes charts and it was number one of those. This is the third one, okay. That's the first one.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Um the third one, home? What was the name of the third one? The bridge.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

The bridge is the third one. The bridge. That was a I called it the bridge because it was like a bridge album. I don't know where I'm going, but this is a bridge somewhere. And then um that I looked at the iTunes charts today, it came out and it was number one.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

And I thought Wow, after all that.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah, so you were just yourself at a house with your friends, and that went number one. And the other tries to manipulate it and make it work. And then I just thought, okay, that's what I'm doing. Not for the sake of charts, but I I had so much fun making that album with no pressure. And then that that kind of started where I am now. Yeah. Of just the independent artist thing before it was like a vibe to be an indie artist doing your that was not a vibe at all. Everybody wanted to be signed, everybody wanted to be on tours, and I and that's that's what started what I have now. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Yeah, back in the day, you weren't you weren't an artist unless you had a label. Like there was no, we're just out here on our own doing our own thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I mean, people did it, but that wasn't the aspirational thing. Right. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

But because you made that decision, you had to produce yourself, you had to surround yourself with the right folks to help the sound be this. You learned so many nuances about how to do it yourself. Right. That now 30 years later. 25. You keep saying 30. I keep saying 30, I keep aging. 25 years later, though, that because I I was about to go back to the disappointment you felt, like you described the nuance of what happened. But how did you feel in the moment? Feeling like I have made two records now, I'm a failure, I didn't work, I'm now having to separate from my label. You just described going in this room with friends, and it sounds all idealistic and cute. But I'm wondering in the moment, like, did you have to go through a lot of emotional struggle and heartache? And why isn't this working? And what's wrong with me?

SPEAKER_01 37:26

And yeah, feeling like you don't fit and feeling like you're you're different, but I was always different and always didn't fit. So there was no, there was that sounds like a sob story, but there was I always I was always the the black kid in the barn with the horses, or the the the big guy who didn't play football, or the, you know what I mean? So I just was like, I okay, uh I'm gonna do this now. And it's just different, felt normal to me. So it it I think I did have moments of like, oh, that's that's unfortunate, but I didn't think that that would be the end of it all. I'll just be like, okay, I'll just go do it myself, which goes back to what we talked about at the beginning of watching Nani and Poppy just be like, oh, okay, well, you say no, but that doesn't mean that I'm a no. It means you're a no.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Like you're no doesn't mean that I turned into a no. So that's that's that's what happened, and just started to to figure it out myself and fast forward to to now. It's kind of been a career that I've figured out. We had definitely help along the way from great people, but figured it out.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

And here's the cool thing, and then I I hope you have another question you want to ask. Okay, but here's the cool thing, you know, he he says that so you know, he says that story and it's kind of quick because you're just telling it in hindsight. But over the past, let's just say decade, but it's been longer than that, you know the events he's produced, yeah, the artist he's brought together, the background vocals he can put together for not just like conferences and you know, women's conferences or or church groups and stuff like that. But when you have major mainstream secular artists and let me call Anthony Evans because I know he can find the people I need to go be on Saturday Night Live or sing background vocals for this record that's getting ready to be at the top of the pop charts, they're calling Anthony for that. Yeah, and the reason he knows how to do all of that is because of that struggle. And to me, there's just a beautiful lesson in there for people that the struggle you're going through right now that seems just like disappointment and discouragement, and it's creating more work for you, and it's inconvenient and all that. There's stuff the Lord is firming up in you, building in you, there's connections you're making. Because all the people he can call now, he knew 20 years ago because he had to find his own sound engineer. So now he knows sound engineers, he knows all these nuances. And I just think that's encouraging people to know that this is not a waste, is what I'm trying to say. That hard first two, three albums that aren't working, it's not a waste. There's something in there. There's even a guy you're in meetings with now. I don't know if it's appropriate to say his name, but we love him so much, just a great person in the industry. You're reconnected. Well, you've been connected with him through the years, but you've reconnected with him now on work-related things. And it's because of the relationship y'all had way back then. Oh, yeah. And that's like burn no bridges and milk everything for every lesson you're getting out of it, even though it's hard, because the the world is round. You know, the world is round and it's coming back around, and it it all matters, it's all part of the story here.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

There's a lesson, I feel like, it, or to summarize it, it's like there's purpose in problems. That's great. I wrote something or was writing something or was thinking about something where it was like, man, like every problem that's allowed by God, which is every problem because God is sovereign and everything is allowed by him, um, has a reason for it, but you can miss the reason. Like if you if only if you just decided to subside to the in the industry standards or the industry pressures and not go against the grain, then you would have never found the purpose in the problem that he was trying to stir up. And so it's like, how can we in the in the midst or in the the the middle of a problem, a trial or circumstance, focus less on the size of the problem and more on the size of the God and the purpose that he's trying to portray through it? Like I feel like that's the like yes, that's it. If that's what I got from this story.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

And anybody that says there's purpose in the problem is probably a preacher.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Probably not. Come on, Reverend! No, uh let's see. I would just get past. I got another question. Um, those were like the industry pressures. I kind of I don't know if it's the same thought process, but behind like more traditional family or religious pressures that you also had to go against. For example, um, like moving to LA. Like, I guess that's kind of more traditional because like everybody else are all families like in Dallas. Right. Like that's it. Like except you. You were like, no, I love California. And so you went to California, or even like not being married. Like, I know that's a religious pressure of like, right? Oh no, yeah, you probably find a wife. You're like, no, actually, I'm good right now. I'm gonna do what I want to do. Like, is that a different thought process mindset, or talk to that a little bit? I don't know if there's a difference.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

That's a great question. I think because the bottom line is I am not going to be uncomfortable so that you look at me and think that I'm whatever you want me to the box you want me to be in. So if I want to go to LA and work there, and that and that happened, that that was a to me, it made total sense how that happened, and I got asked to be a part of major projects, and I was like, I'm gonna go try this. If your Bible belt energy can't take it, that's your problem. Yeah, that that's your problem. And I and I and I've gotten better at that. I used to, oh, can I worry? Go into spirals and spells for all that stuff, and then me and my commitment issues, not being married, all that stuff. I am so I'm just like, y'all can think whatever, you can feel whatever. I'm I don't I'm not concerned with what you think about me. Yeah, you're concerned. Like it's not my responsibility at all.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

So yeah, like how do you how do you differentiate um like not being concerned what people think at all, or taking or or like really listening to people who are saying they're concerned. You know what I mean? Like what's that's great? What's the difference?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yes, I think that there's a line I have to ride in well, I don't think. I know there's a line I have to ride internally in in using wisdom as related to who you open up to and listen to and who you don't. Because there have been people who have spoken to me actually harshly. I'm thinking about one guy in particular who just talked to me like a lunatic. I was like, who are you talking to? Just what the Bible says and how it should be.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

And just and just real dogmatic about the way he thought you should be living your life if you were a believer. But he did really didn't know anything.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

He didn't know me at all. And I just shut, I mean, I literally could feel myself shut off. I mean, I just he was there, but not there anymore. And but then there are people who are your friends and family who are just genuinely concerned and who you want to be open up to and have conversations with. I think it's just using wisdom for me, it's been using wisdom in who you. Allow in for lack of a better way to say it. Yeah. And the faith side of things. I'm trying to figure out how to formulate this thought. I think the expectations of cultural faith can really mess people's souls up.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yeah, and I love that you said cultural faith. Because you're not talking about the Bible. You're not talking about biblical principle honoring God. You're not talking about that. You're talking about the stuff we put on it.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Because it's churchy or the people around us are saying this is the way it's supposed to look.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

And I'm like, no, this is how you do it here.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

But this has taken a long journey for you to work through this.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Yes, it has. And part of it has not been being so um I I have been outside of the super Bible culture. LA, it's not that I'm there at all all the time, I'm there half the time. But there is a reality of people who don't operate in underneath this auspices of Southern Bible culture. They're Christians. They're Christians. They love the Lord. But it's not a part of the cult. And I'm like, oh, this is this makes my soul feel better. Like just this raw, authentic, we're not the expectation isn't for you to be all buttoned up and and perfect. The expectation is for us to be honest and vulnerable and grow together as related to our faith. Wow, yeah. I'm like, oh, that's why does that feel new? Right. Why is that new? Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's been a while now, but uh that felt different to me. Yeah. And and but but I felt like I could grow there. Yeah. So that's where that's where I go.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

And yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

I was gonna say one of the ways that you have grown is through therapy. Like you talk about that openly. You've actually written a book about it with someone who's well steeped in that world. Stacy's her name. And like this is something you get on your Instagram and talk about all the time. Like you feel like it's a life tool that not enough people are taking advantage of. And we're crippling ourselves because of it, particularly in the faith world. And we've talked about the fact that there are certain things at school that we feel like young people should have access to. Like they're learning trigonometry and geometry and and biology, and and sometimes some of those people use those in their fields. Most of the time, a lot of the stuff you're actually learning that you're studying and trying to make an A on, it's not life lesson stuff. It's not stuff that you're gonna calculus.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

You're not gonna I would in a room of 100 people, I'd want to say, how many of you currently use calculus? Like 35-year-olds. And I feel like two or three out of a hundred. Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

But if there was a class on budgeting and finance, investing, everybody would be business building, um, and other other life. This is what I'm actually gonna utilize as a grown person. It would be great. Like, remember back in the day, you don't remember, there used to be like home ec. Like it was life practical stuff where you could learn sewing and things that were, you know, and that that's old school. But I'm just saying there were things like that were practical. There's less of that now. I'm saying all that to say one of the things that you feel like should be a part of the curriculum of how young people begin to formulate healthy health in their life and in their relationships is yeah, is is is therapy.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Uh, for me, for anybody who's built like me, like a heavy have uh leads with emotion, um, or just in general, just learning how relationships work, learning how people work. That's it right there. Learning everybody, yeah. Not everybody is good innately. There are like type B personalities that are literally the way that they are built in like mentally is wrong, is is is off. So you think that you're dealing with somebody and you're pouring out forgiveness and empathy and staying close to them, and it's like, no, actually you need boundaries. And they literally are here to try to destroy your soul. Like that's the way they're built.

SPEAKER_03 47:54

Yeah, if you don't know what you're looking for, if you don't know the person is, let's say, for example, a narcissist, because that's like a term that's going around a lot. If you don't even know how to recognize it, if nobody's ever taught them.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

And becoming a victim to your own compassion. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I get I get very charged up because therapy has helped me put biblical principles to practice. You you can read be anxious for nothing, but some people like me need actual practical tools on how not to be anxious. Yeah, what would some of those be? Being okay with removing yourself from scenarios that actually make you anxious. There comes a point where you have a decision. Like my therapist has been like, Anthony, you don't have to do anything that makes you feel bad. Anything that makes you feel off, you don't have to do that anymore. You don't have to sacrifice yourself for the sake of everybody being all right. I mean, there it de it depends. There I mean, there's from breathing stuff all the way to uh You mean like breathing techniques. I mean, there's there's so many there's just ways to be in tune with yourself emotionally.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

Like you're buying, but even what you just said was that that was a big deal. Like some people need to realize, oh, I can actually decide not to be there anymore. Yeah, like I can decide to leave that room where those people are talking in a way that makes me feel like they're trying to take advantage of me or I feel pressured or overwhelmed. It's like somebody just needs to look at you and go, you know, it's okay to leave, right? Yeah, you don't have to be in that friendship no more, you know?

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Yeah. And I don't know if this is like to statistically, but like I don't know. Something I just feel like there's gonna be somebody that watches this that's gonna need to hear that. I don't know why I just feel that like oh yeah. I just feel like there's somebody, or a lot of people are gonna be watching this that are gonna that have the faith and therapy um separate that it's separated that like because I know like God is supposed to be the ultimate therapist, I don't actually need real therapy that's frowned upon in my church or whatever, and all these things that you're talking about. Why is that counseling? I feel like someone there's gonna be someone in that's watching this that's gonna really need like these things that you're talking about. I'm not just like sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

No, I mean like I think that that's great. And if I could be that or this conversation could be that for anybody, and then it kind of uh uh helped divert them from painful scenarios, and that then that's great because that's what therapy has done for me. It has really helped me figure out a lot of things about myself. Like I I yeah, just just a lot a lot of things that I needed to work on. I didn't know to be healthier, a healthier version of you.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

And to me, a great illustration that your uncle used was like in school, you know, he's like the teacher'd be up there describing how to do the math equation, and he's like, What? You know, and and the the woman can explain it, and and other people are getting it. And he's like, What? Well, you need a tutor to help walk you through what it is that that person said in front of the group. You need a tutor, it's no shame in needing the tutor. And so he's like, Is that did I say that right? Yeah, yeah, that's like that's how therapy is.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Stacey Kaiser is her name. That most people don't say their therapist names, but whatever.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Well, y'all wrote a book together, so I assume it's not.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

There's been a lot of paperwork samba, that's okay now. But yeah, she's been my tutor and she helped me pass. Like, I I made an A because I had a tutor. That that's that's how I look at it.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

And you can't be ashamed to have a tutor. It's like, be anxious for nothing. Now, can I get a tutor to show me what practical things do I put in place to actually make this a part of my experience? I think for anybody watching, you know, that is thinking about this now, it's important that you tell them the name of the book that y'all wrote together.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Oh, when faith meets therapy.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

When faith meets therapy, it'd be a great way for you to see how do I combine, not abandon my faith, not abandon biblical truth, but how do I figure out how to walk this out in my life so that I can live healthy.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, but I mean, I don't really have any other questions, but what I will say is that I don't think, I don't even know if you realize, especially over the last like year or two, where you kind of, I'm in that age where, like, of course, you're you're my uncle, but like we're like, you know, like you and my mom, like we became like friends. You know what I mean? Like you just become like, oh no, they cool people. They not just, you know, whatever. But like it's been it's been cool to be able to implement in my own life these things that we're talking about. Like, I don't think I'd ever feel pressured to go to LA because of you, though. Like, you made me not feel ever feel pressured to go to LA. Like, like, I don't I don't feel like I have to be married because you didn't feel like you have to, you know what I mean? So, like, and it's cool because like if I want to go to LA because I love LA, like I empathize you with difference, like like where it's we kind of like the same things I've learned, like in that way. But like I'm like, if I want to go to LA, perfectly. I'm able to go Uncle Nini's house and just go to LA. You know what I mean? Or like I I don't uh you you at least help me be able to be okay with being different in certain areas outside of the box, yeah. Outside of the box, like I'm and and you make it look uh easy, like easy and amazing. Like I'm like, I want to be outside the box because not say like everybody has outside the box things, but like you in particular are always just like, no, yeah, I'm good on that. Y'all have fun, but I'm gonna also just do my thing over here. Like you embody that. And I've I adopted that practice actually. Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

And you know, we tease you so much, you know, we we're gonna tease you because it's just fun. But we tease you so much about this preacher thing and reverend thing and all that, because you're a good communicator. So that's why we're, you know, who knows what the Lord has planned for you. And I know you know that I just tease you. But also think about how that would have he would have experienced that.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 53:12

He's Tony Evans Jr.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

So think about how often throughout his life he had to carry the weight of the pressure, talking about being outside of the box. Think about having to crawl out from that box.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

Where everybody is just thinking that you're kind of supposed to be this person, and he had to dislodge himself from the weight that he either put on himself or that other people helped compound, where he's like, that's not me and it's okay, and I can just be me, but that would have taken a lot of intentional effort.

SPEAKER_04 53:46

Yeah, well, you saved me a lot of effort and stuff like that. So I appreciate it. Okay, agreed, no problem. That's the whole point.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

It's to make it a little easier for whoever's next. Right. Yeah, thank you. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

We appreciate you. I I have uh no more questions.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

No more questions. That was a great conversation, and we got to do it in the onesies that your uncle bought for us years ago.

SPEAKER_04 54:07

Yeah, appreciate that too. No problem. Anytime.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

We love you. Hope you all enjoyed this episode of Full Fledged the Homie Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

We will see you guys soon.