Toxic Leadership Isn't Always Loud

In this episode of Trail Talks, Kelly and Terra are joined by Sue and Heather for a real conversation about a form of workplace toxicity that often goes unrecognized—silent bullying.

This isn’t about obvious conflict or explosive leaders. It’s about the behaviors that happen quietly:

•  Avoiding hard conversations 
•  Withholding feedback 
•  Excluding people from information or opportunities 
•  Creating environments where people feel unseen, unsupported, or unsure where they stand 

And the impact? It’s real. It affects trust, performance, confidence—and ultimately, people.

Together, they unpack:

•  What silent bullying actually looks like in leadership spaces 
•  Why it often goes unaddressed 
•  The subtle behaviors that signal something deeper is off 
•  And what leaders—and teammates—can do to change it 

This conversation is honest, at times uncomfortable, and necessary.

Because leadership isn’t just about what you say.
 It’s also about what you don’t say—and the space that silence creates.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this episode are our own and do not reflect those of the Department of War or the United States Air Force.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to Trail Talks, the podcast where we talk about growth, the messy, the beautiful, and everything in between. I'm your host, Kelly Kruger, founder of Kelly Michelle Coaching, where we focus on mindset, emotional intelligence, and leadership, all grounded in real life and real science. And joining me is my co-host and partner in growth, founder of Leading People LLC, Terra Stanet, the leadership trainer and facilitator who brings insight, curiosity, and real-world perspective to every episode. So wherever you're listening from today, we're glad you're here and thank you for joining us on the trail. Hey everybody, welcome back to Trail Talks. We have so Tara is back. Tara, I missed you. I missed you a lot. So welcome back. And our friends Heather and Sue are joining us today. Thank you, ladies. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Oh, it's an honor. Thank you for joining us. So today's episode, our discussion is the next step from our previous episode, which was the silence that breaks trust. So lack of feedback, silence, being ignored, taking that ability to grow and develop from somebody, what that can do to somebody. So we talked about that last episode, and we're going to take it a step further this episode and really talk about toxic leadership and what toxic leadership is, why people are toxic leaders. Have we been on the receiving end of toxic leaders? And what kind of advice can we give to people that are on the receiving end of that leadership and how can we help them? So you are you ladies ready for this? Absolutely. This is a heavy topic. It's tough to talk about because even when we've been on the receiving end of it or we've witnessed it, it is a difficult topic to talk about. And because we carry so much and we care about people, and this is companies, private sector, everywhere, it weighs on us and we want to help people. And we've been through it at different points in our careers. You guys ready for this conversation?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

I am ready.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

So I was gonna say that I think that toxic leadership is so difficult because um what we call silent bullying, kind of what we were discussing, it's not like I'm being punched in the face at work or beat up. So it's not as obvious a lot of the times. It's kind of silent bullying. And unfortunately, depending on what position you're in, or positional power or what have you, it can make it more difficult to prove that your leadership is being toxic or that you're being silently bullied.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Almost emotionally bullied is the kind of way I describe it. And it's that's hard to prove. It's just my word against yours. And sometimes, what do they say? It's not illegal to be a jerk, it's ignoring you when I walk down the hallway, not even acknowledging you if I say good morning, and you can feel it, but how do you prove that somebody just didn't say good morning to you or whatever that case is? So I think it's the emotional bullying that makes that hard to prove.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah, there's a difference between somebody that will raise their voice and yell and slam their fist on a table that is apparent. Like I don't have to tell a story in my head and say, Oh, I wonder what they think. No, you're showing me right now by your tone of voice, by you raising your voice, by the words you're speaking, or slurring or yelling, and your body movements. So that those are all facts. I don't need to make up a story in my head. But when there is silence and I'm being ignored, or you know, the silent messages, then me on the receiving end, I make up my own story. And that story, I'm gonna ruminate in that, and it's rarely helpful, and it's hard to get away from it. You have to coach yourself to do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

There's that saying also with fine line with bullying because are they intimidating or are you intimidated? There's some people that feel like they're being silent bullied, but that may not be the case because their perception is their reality. However, when you dig deeper into that, and I've seen it with some of the people that I've worked with, worked for, worked around, they, as Heather she nailed it, they may be with one person, you can just feel the energy. And with another person, they're just completely ignored, which puts fear in them. They don't trust their boss, they don't trust their leadership. And once they hit that fear part, then we're at silent bullying. They don't trust who they're around.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

And I liked what Heather said as well. Legally, she mentioned something about being hard to prove or is it really happening? And legally, harassment is noticed. Legally, harassment, you can file a harassment charge on somebody, whether you're in the workplace or not, but bullying is not legally noticed all the time. It's not, it's not a real thing, it's not something that's legally binded where harassment is. And harassment can teeter the lines of bullying, but bullying it doesn't teeter the lines by definition of harassment. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Absolutely. I've had individuals that I've worked with throughout my career, even young into my career, and I'm like, they don't like me. And people, oh no, no, that's just how they are. And I'm like, no, they don't like me. Like, no, they don't like me. I can't tell you what I've done. I can't tell you why they treat me differently, but I know they do not like me. They just talk to me differently, they react to me differently. Just anything I want to do, something and it's automatically a no, or the next person wants to do it, and they're like, oh, yeah, that's not a problem. Like, well, hold on. When it was me, it was a problem, you know? And so that's you've seen it throughout. Or I've had people come to me and I have to look at them and go, yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know how to fix that for you. I think as a leader, that is hard. That is hard when you know it's happening and you go, How do I fix it? What do I say? Because it's just going to probably make the situation worse. How do I coach or help this person through that kind of situation? That I think is also almost as difficult, if not more difficult, than the individual going through it is that bystander, knowing there's nothing they can do or feeling powerless to stop the situation.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah. It's up to us to explain the perception of what's happening. And Heather, you said something interesting. Uh, if somebody says that's just the way they are, I have a hard time accepting that sentence. Our personalities are different. We've all walked different paths, we all have different experiences, but you can't tell me that there is a company in this entire country that doesn't have a mission statement or a vision statement about treating somebody with respect. There is no mission or vision statement of any company out there that says you could be disrespectful to your employees and to your colleagues. No, I have a hard time with that. I don't care. Personalities are different, people are different, but respect is non-negotiable.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Correct, but so many mission statements are fluff. Let's talk about how many companies actually follow their mission statement. It looks good on the wall, it sells their product. However, if you go to their HR and pull their records, I guarantee you their records don't match their mission statement. I want to touch on what Heather said, which is really interesting, is the bystander part. And I think that's what makes this team of the four of us unique because we've all been through some stuff together in the last couple of years, and we've watched others, and that's the harder part for me. I can handle someone attempting to bully me, but when I watch one of my friends go through it, it's just a totally different level, a totally different feeling. It hurts absolutely and as a person that has been in a situation that's been bullied, I'll just jump into it and screw talking about. Yeah. As a person that's been, like I'm the same. Usually it takes a lot to make me have anxiety and go through the emotions that I went through. Granted, it was a long time that the bullying was happening. So, but it does take a lot for me to feel that way. But the worst part of all of it was the anxiety, depending on the position that person is in, and the position that you're in, and I have statistics on who's bullied more than others, depending on your position, which we can get into later. Make I thought I was crazy. I thought that I was making this up. I thought I was just being emotional. That was like, Yes, they're being narcissists, right? But because of their position, you're like, there's no way that they're doing this for real. Like, I'm just being emotional. That was the hardest part really to deal with. But into Sue and Heather's part about what they said about watching someone else go through it, not only was I going through it, my friends, my colleagues, other people were going through it at the same time. So not only am I dealing with my emotions and trying to control them, I'm also the bystander. So I'm getting it from both sides. And that was that was it's a difficult situation. And then for me to be there watching not only you go through your life events, another person on this podcast not gonna say whose name going through their life event with similar. I honestly got to a boiling point with I just couldn't understand what the target was for. But you actually handled yourself extremely, extremely well for what you were going through. And a lot of it goes back to the topic of silent bullying because it took, I think, because you were unbreakable, that was when it became more of the harassment line, which is you can document that, right? So for a long time it was the more of the silent bullying, but you just stood tall and and nothing was happening. And then it reached that point where uh, you know, that that person took it to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

But it kind of goes back to what you talked about last week, having somebody to go to, having somebody, knowing you have somebody in your corner that you can trust and go, am I crazy? Am I really feeling this? And I have had people come to me and talk to me. And one thing that they'll say is, but I know you've got stuff going on too, right? And I go, no, no, no, that's the biggest thing in my world. This is the biggest thing in your world. Do not compare the two. You feel what you feel. Right. And so even if all four of us are dealing with the same person, we're all handling it differently because of what's going on, maybe in our personal lives and in our professional lives, and whatever our colleagues are going through. There's so many different factors on how you're going to deal. Maybe you have triggers because of something you dealt with in your past that makes it even more heightened for you. But maybe the next person, it doesn't take as much because they have triggers from their past. Right, childhood or for their childhood. So bullying while on the surface, we kind of teased about it, right? As kids, oh, like, oh, kids just bully and we move on. But we've we're learning that bullying style is not just with elementary kids on the playground. It is now going into corporate and it is now causing people's promotions, it's causing people's careers, it's causing mental health issues. We see it in our school age kids too. It's going well beyond some kids on the playground and you got purple shoes and they go by Barney. It's going way beyond that. And until I think corporate America starts to take bullying for what it is and take it more seriously, I think we're going to continue to have these kind of escalations because, like we've all talked about, it's hard to prove.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah. It's almost like it's normalized now. Like it's a right of passage.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Well, that's interesting that you say almost normalized because we have so many different generations in the workforce. And you have the everyone gets the generation all the way to the shut up and color generation. And where is the happy medium? Because the kids, as Heather was saying, or call them kids because some of them are just young adults, they may be triggered more easily because they were given everything their entire life. So now if they're married, you're taking these, you know, they're they're they feel as if they're being bullied at work, they take it home to their spouse, they take it home to their kids, and then that just starts the whole downward spiral of the upside-down home life. So I think you now that with we have to normalize just treating people with respect and get away from any form of bullying. Can we talk about what silent bullying and toxic leadership kind of look like? Is that where you were going with this?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, I was for the listeners, because I think the listeners like like when we define and kind of teach a little bit. Let's define what silent bullying is, and then we can shift to the traits of a toxic leader. And because I want them to hear it and see if any of it resonates with them. So define silent bullying, it's the use of avoidance, exclusion, or withholding communication to control, punish, or distance from somebody. And there's some examples, withholding feedback, inconsistent behavior. So nice to others, exactly what Heather was saying, nice to others, cold to other people, no eye contact. So they're dismissing you, not advocating for somebody behind closed doors, excluding from opportunities. There's there's a long list of things. And then when we look at core traits of toxic leadership, and I'll share the references after this list, but just real quick self-centered, so narcissistic tendencies. They take credit, deflect blame, use people as tools, destroys trust and psychological safety. There's abusive or degrading behavior, so humiliation, sarcasm, belittling, so fear-based compliance, and then silent, passive toxicity, inconsistency and favoritism, different standards for different people, management, control, they don't trust subordinates, and then lack of accountability. Barbara Kellerman, she wrote uh the book Bad Leadership, defined toxic leadership type. So Barbara Kellerman, bad leadership, defines it as incompetent, rigid, intemperate, callous, corrupt, and evil. Oh, evil. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

I don't have an issue with rigid, though. I don't I don't necessarily agree with the rigid.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

I think it depends in I think it depends on your field, because if you're in a field where you need creativity and innovation, then you gotta be a little bit flexible as a leader.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

But it just reminds me of ostracism. I don't know, like I feel like that encompasses it all. It kind of reminds me of shows exclusion, activates the same brain regions as physical pain.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

I don't think people realize when they apply their toxic leadership tendencies or they do the silent bullying, which silent bullying is a toxic leadership tendency, what they are doing to that other person. And that other person feels the pain. So for those that didn't get a chance to listen to the last episode, please do so. But but we compare the emotional pain and physical pain. And there was a study done where kids were excluded from an activity. And when they were excluded, when the brain scan was being completed, it was the same portion of the brain, singular cortex, something, one of the cortexes, that portion of the brain lit up. It's the same part of the brain that lights up when you are physically in pain. So if your hand touches a stove and you feel that burn, it's the same part of a brain that when you are socially rejected.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Let me ask you a question with that. What if the person who is doing the silent bullying, that's the culture that they were brought up in? That's the work culture that they were brought up in. They don't even recognize because that's how they're that's their brain, they're adapted to that style. How do you go about in a workforce? How do you go about telling them that they're silent bullying if they had no idea they were even doing it? Well, you as a leader, you see it happening, what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

As leaders, every leader is responsible to shape the culture of their organization. So if they see it, they do not look the other way. They must address it and have a conversation and help that person grow. Because if that person went their entire career and nobody's ever corrected them or given them constructive feedback, then they think it's okay. So all throughout their career, everybody has turned their heads and ignored because some people want to ignore conflict and don't get involved. And sometimes they say drama, right? No, no, no. Don't say drama. Don't say drama. This, these are people we are talking about, human beings that have feelings, right? And everybody wants to do a good job. I believe everybody inherently wants to do a good job. They want to do meaningful work, but they also need feedback. So we as leaders, we have a choice. We either shape the culture and have those conversations to make everybody around us better, rather than sink into the culture that's been created.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

So, you know, I agree 100%. I align with that because we worked around each other, but then you have the people who push back because of your leadership and because of your feedback, you're now mean, right? It's a fine balance, it's a very fine balance because you want to be honest and teach them, assuming they're teachable. And if they're not teachable, now you almost have a division because you they're trying to shape you.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

So, what Sue is saying, what do you do when you have somebody that is not coachable?

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Well, one thing I will say is that based on the research that we've done in moving on to like why people silently work place bully, why people are toxic, one of the skills that they lack in general is the hard conversation skill. And I think you said in the last episode, like, don't call it a hard conversation, just have the conversation. But they just can't, they don't do well at receiving feedback. And I think that we do have classes and all the things for that, but they also have to be open-minded to receive that information.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

I think some of it too is fear. If they feel like they're not meeting the standard or working in an environment and everybody is the valedictorian and you come in and you're not, you know, sometimes instead of looking at this as an opportunity to grow and learn from these people and see how you can make yourself better, sometimes they don't see it that way. Or we've talked about we've had five generations. What if you are now the young person and you're the young leader and everybody is older, you might start having issues communicating. And sometimes it's a communication type of situation that now you can't have that conversation because you don't know how to properly communicate. So I think that sometimes it's a lot of different things that kind of play into it. I don't think it's any one thing that creates that toxic leadership. I think that it's a lot of different things. And I'll kind of use myself as an example. I kind of moved up through my positions very quickly. I was young. And so I didn't know how to have conversations. Let's not call them hard conversations because I was young. So here I am trying to talk to people that sometimes were 10 years older than me to have conversations that I was not comfortable having because I lacked the experience to have them. But I had to seek out mentorship and have people that could surround me and teach me and just kind of give me that feedback and make me feel comfortable. But it took a while. So sometimes I was not always the best leader. And I know that and I can see that. But you have to be able to be self-aware too. And so it's it takes a lot to lead people. And some days you could be a great leader and the next day you could fall short. But it's about having those teachable moments, being able to be coachable, and then getting up the next day and trying it again. It's when you go, nope, this is how I am, and you're going to conform to me instead of being a leader and knowing that you have to conform to X number of people that you're leading. And I think that's where people start to run into toxic leadership, is when they are like, This is me, and you're going to conform to me.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah. Some people go in in higher level positions to be large and in charge versus serving others. And some that Heather said, Yeah, we're we're gonna fluctuate. We're not gonna be the best leader every day. And if we're the best leader every day, how are we ever gonna grow? But it is about getting feedback, but also we talked about the different generations. And what do you guys think? Like the newer generations or the younger generations, it's more about coaching and putting the ownership on them where you're asking them questions like, hey, about this situation, you know, what was your thought process and how you acted here? And do you think there was perception or an optic in the I don't know. I don't maybe it's how we're communicating it with some generations.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yeah, like the younger generation, they honestly take feedback better statistically. They take feedback better than. The older generation, but they want immediate feedback. Like they don't want you to wait for their quarterly feedback. Because, and I bring this up all the time when I teach generational gaps of social media. You post something, someone likes it, you keep it up. You post something, no one likes it, you take it down. That's immediate feedback about what you're doing. And I think that there is a way of doing it. I think that you have to do what you said, more coaching rather than mentorship. Like they don't give a crap about 19 back in 19. I did this. They don't care. Okay. I honestly I'm a millennial. I don't care. I would rather you ask me the questions for me to come up with the answer, which is the definition of adult learning, anyways. It's just that they're using it where I think older generations don't. And I'm not saying the older generations can't take feedback. Please don't take it that way. I'm just saying that the majority of our workforce are the younger two generations at this point. And those are the ones that we have to adapt to because the older generations are on their way out. That's the easiest way to get them by and though. The younger generation is when you ask them for the feedback or you give them the feedback, or the kids coming through the workforce nowadays, their innovation and technology levels are just beyond anything that I could have imagined 20 years ago. So the second you engage with them and show them interest and you allow them to know that you understand they are intelligent. Just because they're 19, just because they're 20, doesn't mean that they cannot compete with us. So once you build that bridge and they trust you because they know you trust them, they'll listen to you. It's totally different than my generation. My generation is just get it done because I told you to get it done, and we'll talk about it later. But the other thing I was gonna say is part of toxic leadership and management in general, is I like to call it macho management. Macho management. Okay, macho management. And when I say that, I think of um King of the Hill. And I say that because King of the Hill, for those of you who don't know, because it is an older like game, I guess. Actually, no, I seen kids playing it the other day, but it's the last one standing on top of the hill. So you get everyone off this hill, and you're the king of the hill, you're the last one standing, right? So sometimes your rank or your position that you're in, it becomes positional power. And it's often mistaken for true leadership. It doesn't equal leadership, right? You have to work at that, like we were talking about. You have to be able to take feedback, all the things we just said. But a lot of times when you play King of the Hill and you're the last one standing, you're on the top, like that's cool and all good for you. But you'll be alone at the top of the hill. So it's more about leading from influence and empowering. It's not about being the king of the dang hill. It's about what did you leave behind? How did you influence others? What impact did you make? That's what true leadership is. And sometimes I think positional power gets to our head. And sometimes I think that's what plays into toxic leadership.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, I think that leadership, I think of who's standing on that hill with me. That's what I think about. I think about who can I take there with me.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

I totally thought about that cartoon when she said can't get a bill to her.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah, I thought I thought she was talking about the cartoon too. And I was like, like Bobby Hill, where are we going with this? Yeah, Bobby. Come on, guys. Yep. I have a mentor and she's been my mentor for the last 26 years. I will tell you, she raised me in my career and she influenced a lot of who I am today, still instilling itself into me as a young person. But what if I didn't get her? What if I got a toxic leader right out of the gate? Who would I be now? Would I be a toxic leader myself? Because about five years in, I did get a toxic leader, and it was rough for me. Luckily, it was short-lived and um he retired shortly after. But I had gotten great leadership prior to, so I knew what it looked like. I knew what it was supposed to feel like to have leadership around me, knowing that I could make a mistake and it will that wasn't the end of my career. I made a few and and I was shaped differently than maybe if I made them with a toxic leader. But I think that also changes your trajectory, right? And who you are based on who imprinted on you. I know that sounds crazy, but who imprinted on you at different points of your career or your life that helps mold you to who you are. And like Sue said earlier, or who just kind of turned the blind eye and continued to let you lead this way run room, thinking that you were going to change or is going to be the next person's problem.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Heather, you said, I mean, if if that's the only thing you're exposed to, I mean, you are who you hang with, and you're gonna end up being that leader that you've been exposed to, the law of observation. So whatever you're watching, it's monkey see monkey do. If that's all you're exposed to is toxic leadership and that culture that's been allowed, more than likely you're going to be a toxic leader. That's a fact.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

That's a fact. I I don't disagree with that statement, but I do like to say that a lot of times it just growing up and growing up in the environment I grew up in, I could have been a product of my environment or could have done better.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Times out of 10, you could become a product of your environment, but I think there's also an opportunity to learn, but that's if you have an open mind, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:31

But I also think if you had somebody, because I'm the same way, Kara, I agree. I could have been the product of my environment. We all have our stories, but I think if you had somebody that showed you there's a different way, even if it's one person, even if it was one friend and their family did it differently, or one mentor, or just one showed you there could be a different path. The easy button is to go, this is what I know.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

This is how this is what I've been taught. I think child like talking childhood and family is different than talking what I'm talking about is more toxic leaderships in the career field that you're in. And I can tell you it's funny now where I am in my life compared to where I was 25 years ago. And Heather and I have had this conversation. I look at back on some of my first people who I supervised, and I would not call myself toxic because I didn't bully them, but I was a product of my environment. I was a product of my supervisor, and it was just do as I say, do it now, don't ask questions. And it was a very structured, rigid career field. And as I was introduced to people who pulled me away from that, and I expanded on my career, I look back and I think, I really wish I could go back to some of those, to some of those troops and do things a little bit differently. For the most part, they they succeeded as well. But you can't have a whole team of quarterbacks, right? So what's funny is in a couple a couple of weeks ago I had a conversation with one of my friends and they were like, man, we never thought you would be so soft. And I started laughing. I'm like, I never thought somebody would call me soft, right? But I'm at that point now in my life where their mental health matters to me. Them going home at night and sleeping well matters to me. And if it's I can fix it because of my words, or I can fix it because I can buy them one shore, I can fix it just by letting them sit down and cry it out. Just whatever I can do to make you go home feeling good about yourself today is my end result. I knew that took a lot of self-improvement with my tiller. Let's face it, I mean, I have RBF, it's in my DNA, you know, it doesn't help with my career field. So I have to work extra hard for people to see past the fact that the RBF is not who I am. And I wish I again could go back 20 years ago, but as Heather said, it was the mentors at my 14-year mark in my career who turned the tables for me. And like I can't thank them enough. Yeah, and I think I think that's what makes you who you are today, though. Like Heather said, mistakes. It's not a mistake, it's an opportunity to learn. And even though it sucks, like you know, you did wrong with people that you've supervised, or maybe not even did wrong, but you could have done better. I want to say wrong. I definitely it wasn't right, it wasn't wrong, but I definitely could have done better. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Let's ask this question what has been your greatest failure in leadership?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

So for me, um my greatest failure is not finding my voice early, earlier in my career. I think that I have found my voice now, and I'm more than willing to use it when I need to, but there was some things several years ago that really should have um had my voice then as well. And I just went with the flow. I was like, well, this is just the way it is, and it's not harming anybody, and it really was. It was harming culture, it was harming all kinds of different things. But I was like, well, we're just gonna go with it. Um, I'm not gonna go against the grain, I guess you will say. And then I figured out from that situation, I'm like, never again. I will have a voice, I'll have a voice when others cannot. I'm gonna speak when I don't feel comfortable with what's going on around me. That's probably one of my leadership failures. Um, to me, that's probably the most emotional one for Artie.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah, I mean that's what I think when you when you think yeah, when you think about it, the easiest thing to do is to stay silent, and that's why people do, because it is the easiest thing to do. So you're very brave for speaking up and standing up for what's right, and that is integrity.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah, I I agree. I wish I would have found my voice earlier, although I did have a voice earlier, but I just didn't have um any tact with my voice, which would get me in a lot more trouble. Uh believe it or not, I was worse 20 years ago. So at least now I think things through. But I think one of my biggest failures and um was I had a troop who thank God I had a great relationship with him. And he came into my office and he wanted this visit about eight years ago, he wanted to talk to me, and he was telling me about his problem. And I stood up and he said, Where are you going? And uh I said, I'm gonna go, I want to go handle it. And he said, That's the problem. I just want you to listen. He goes, by what you do in your career field in the Sedonian world and in the military world, he's like, You just want to instantly fix everything. He's like, I just want you to listen. He's like, I trust you. I know you're not gonna tell anybody. I just need you to listen. And that was so powerful for me. So now, before I go to fix anything, I ask, is it okay if I call this person? How would you like me to fix it? Are you here for me just to listen to you? What do you want your solution to be right now? Because that was a game changer for me. And I never even recognized the fact that I just want to fix everything. That's a good one. I can say that I'm the fixer, and I've had to work on not being the fixer. And I'm just like, oh, this is the easy solution. It's like, no, that's not what they're asking for. You have to listen and figure out what it is that they want. Sometimes people just want you to hear them.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

One thing I was gonna say was it was a few minutes ago before we got into the greatest failure in leadership. But I think it's okay for leaders to ask that question to each other once in a while, like breaks down some walls and removes some ego and makes you look back on your journey and what you've done. But the bias piece, and we are very quick to apply biases to people. Biases are always gonna be there. We know they exist, but if you truly don't know what they are and how to address them, then you're gonna believe the biases and you're gonna judge people and criticize people without even knowing them. Everyone has a story, and we don't know what people's lives are on the outside of their workplace. We we don't know. Um, we don't know their stressors, we don't know their family life. I mean, sometimes we do, but you know what I mean. Like we're we're not there with them every day. We may work with them every day, but we don't know truly, you know, where they came from and their and their journey, or even maybe what happened the night before. So they come into our workplace and we shape that culture. We have a choice to treat people a certain way and to help develop them and inspire their growth. And I still tell people to this day, and and Tara knows it too, that you know, when you can sit around at the end of the day and your your employees are kind of lingering around for a few minutes, that's a very good sign. And that means that they're safe around you and you've provided that psychological safety. Because out there can be can be chaotic and very uncertain. And the best thing you can provide somebody in the workplace is that psychological safety, is certainty, is vision, understanding, you know, all of that. It's provide that, provide that safety for them, that environment. And we all talk about it and we learn about it and we read about it and we watch it and we listen to these podcasts, and yet still we have a tough time. Why? Uncomfortable. Sometimes it's uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah, uncomfortable, but sometimes the people sometimes you're outnumbered, and it's just exhausting. Like, I mean, I I've watched it, I've witnessed it. Like some people are so afraid of culture change. It's the way it is because we've always done it this way, and it's you against 20. It's exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Or I think too, some of it is is trust factor. If people are scared of the toxic leader, they can't be trusted. And I say that in a way they will go back to that toxic leader because they want to be on the toxic leader's good side. Not getting promoted, not getting a raise, what whatever that is, right? And so then you start having distrust amongst the employees because now it's us versus them within that organization. And so I think that toxic leadership starts to erode the culture. It's not, you know, it it starts off here, maybe a single person. And then what ends up happening is fear. Fear does a lot to people. Yep. Because they don't want it to be them, they're scared.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

They're they're afraid to rock their stability because when they go against that leader, they don't know what's gonna happen to their home life, their work life. They're friends, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Correct. Maybe they get fired, and that's that's how they make money for their families, or yeah, I mean, it the list goes on and on. And so getting rid of toxic leadership is not as simple as just a few people noticing it and trying to change the culture, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

The other thing with toxic leadership as well that I want to mention is it doesn't happen fast, but it happens so gradually that you don't even realize that the culture is being changed until it's a year down the road and you're going, oh, hold on now, what is going on? Now it's complete chaos and now it's toxic. They're doing it so slow, and they're doing it not in front of their box, their leadership.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

And I think there's a little hope on our end too. Like I know for me, I'm very optimistic. If you're on the receiving end of it, like, and as a group, you probably thought at times, maybe it'll get better. Maybe it'll because they start to show that that little bit of hope, you know, and little bit of improvement, and then they go back to their ways. And and for you, it's so inconsistent, and your nervous system is then hijacked.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

And oh god, I can't even it may not be a good example, but you know, when we talk about this in my career field at my civilian job, we say it's like having that step that that beats the shit out of you. But the next day he brings you candy and a toy. So it's like, who are you? Like, you just got me a toy, you're great, and then whack, he gets slapped in the head, right? It's similar to that. Like they build you up and then they just beat you down, and you're just trying to figure out what am I worse than the candy and the toy, or am I not worth the candy and the toy? It's a it's a very fine line. Yeah. They do say it's parallel to domestic violence, so not because it's the same, but it is parallel. Nope, it's very, it's very similar, right? I mean, you and I have talked about that, Sarah. It's very similar, it's very mental, it's very manipulating. They make you question yourself. The dynamics are completely there. Can I give some statistics on bullying? Yes. Uh, this is from Workplace Bullying Institute from 2024. Um, it is a.org, so I assume it's a reputable source. Just kidding, it is. 32% of Americans are directly bullied. There's 52.2 million, so 32% of that. Majority, this was interesting. Majority of the bullying is top down. 55%.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Can you go back to the wait? Can you go back to the percentages? I need you to slow it down. Sorry, I get excited.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I got you. I didn't understand anything she just said. You can't speak an alphabet so strategically, you lost me.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Completely understood her.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

No, I need you to break it down. That's because we can still work on the same frequency. All right, here we go. I will slow down. 32% of Americans are directly bullied.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

So out of the 52.2 million people that they surveyed, 32% are bullied. Okay, okay. Okay, thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. This reminds me when I was got too excited to try to say amygdala a hundred times. Okay. This one was interesting. Majority of bullying is top-down. So, not bottom up, top-down. 55% is top-down bullying. People of higher CEO with higher type of levels. Only 29% are actually from peers. That's interesting, I thought it's still a pretty high percentage, though.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

It is.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

It is. But I just feel like I I would think that more peers would be bullying rather than like my CEO. The other one is that I thought was a hybrid. So remote and on-site, but like hybrid, so they're both. Um, workers are bullied the most, 51%.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Correct? Yeah. So I'm taking my leadership, doing my management masters, and I read that because they're not part of the in-crowd because they're not in the office all the time. So they're outsiders. I did read that.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Okay. Um prevalence of workplace bullying. Now, this is this is pretty interesting too, because 32% of adult Americans report being directly bullied at work. An additional 14% witness it. So that means 46% are affected by bullying. And then there's a 26% had no direct or indirect experience with bullying. But we're believers that bullying is happening. So 72% altogether of Americans are aware of bullying. My last statistic 74.8 million US workers are affected by workplace bullying, which is equivalent to combined populations of these 10 states, which are all on the West Coast. So after Texas, 10 states um is equivalent to.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Do you know where that is?

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Do you know where I know you're not talking, Kelly? I know you're not talking.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

I'm in Utah.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Oh, okay, yeah, West. It might that's my West. I'll call that yours.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Kelly is yes, she do not even ever ask her to for directions.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Well, when somebody says it's the north or south side of the building or east west, I'm like, what are you why do you gotta talk like that?

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Why do you need to talk like that? So just so you know, north is always in front of me, regardless of where I'm standing. Yeah, you would think, right? It is for me. Well, you said you said almost 50% of people are directly bullied or witness bullying in the work center. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

That's is that their perception, or is that proven bullying?

SPEAKER_02 42:31

It's so it's proven. It says in the survey was defined as repeated mistreatment, abusive conduct that is threatening, intimidating, or humiliating, work sabotage or verbal abuse. So that was the questions that they answered, and 74.8 workers are affected by it.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

It's higher than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah. It's shockingly high. Yeah. So what about the member on the receiving end? What what do we tell them? What kind of advice do we give them? What can they do?

SPEAKER_03 43:02

That's a that's a very good question because there's members on the receiving end who have seen peers or mentors make a formal complaint and nothing happens. So I think hopefully that person has someone who they trust, someone who they can confide in, who can help them basically make validate them, validate their feelings and then stand up for them.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, nobody is store. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody needs to help them just navigate through the process.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

One thing that I did some research on, because I I was trying to find like, is there like there's got to be an answer to this, right? There's got to be an answer. What do you do? Um, but we mentioned before with between bullying, harassment and how one is legally binding and the other one isn't. But one of the things that they said was that companies have workplace bullying because They don't have good harassment and bullying policies. It's not clearly communicated in their complaint procedures. And so they don't have processes in place where they take every complaint seriously for one. And they don't have a process of good reporting, and they need to invest in a way to differentiate between misunderstanding and inappropriate conduct. And so policy for companies is a huge one.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah, I mean, if there is no policy or training, like it's not important, really. Do you think we overuse bullying? Do you think it's back to where I was saying earlier, just checking the box?

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah. It needs to be clearly defined. Yeah. But how do you and the other thing is it's hard to prove. How can I say that you were bull being mean to me?

SPEAKER_01 44:51

The one thing I was gonna say though is in my personal experience, it's never one person that's being bullied, though. It's usually multiple people. It may start off with one, but that that toxic behavior, if you don't conform to the toxicity of that leader, that's when the bullying typically will start. Just in my personal experiences over the years. And then it's multiple people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah. And it's a pattern. Like it's probably not a one-time, you know, situation where and you have seen it, where it's years. It repetits. And like Heather said, it's multiple people. So you start picking up the patterns, but it's gotta start somewhere. And after a few times, it's not a few isolated situations that is called a pattern.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Yeah. And one of the things that I research and it says to do is to make sure you document. So the date, where, who did it, the witnesses, what you did, the impact of the incident, the impact that it had on you.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yeah, I think when you document, then you're able to identify and document with facts, not feeling certain emotions. Then you're able to identify the patterns. Well, because most people don't want it to be them. So they ignore it for a while. Yeah. All right. Are we ready to close this out? Yeah, I think so. Hey friends, toxic leadership doesn't grow in isolation. It grows in silence, in avoidance, in environments where people stop speaking up. So if something feels off, pay attention. Don't look the other way. Because the cost of silence is always higher than the cost of a hard conversation. And leadership, real leadership, is choosing that conversation. Hey, thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time on the trail. Bye. Before we wrap up, if today's conversation resonated with you, you don't have to walk your journey alone. I offer emotional intelligence assessments with personalized coaching, one on one mindset coaching, and leadership development for teams and organizations. You can explore all of that at Kellymichelle Coaching.com. Link in the show notes. And I'll leave you with this awareness is powerful, but support is transformational.