Leadership Isn't Hard - You're Avoiding It

After a heavy conversation on toxic leadership and silent bullying, this episode brings it back to what actually matters.

Because here’s the truth:
 Leadership isn’t complicated… it’s uncomfortable.
 And too often, we avoid the very things that make leadership effective.

In this episode of Trail Talks, we break down:

•  The 5 basics of leadership: clarity, consistency, communication, ownership, and care 
•  The 3 essentials of followership: ownership without authority, courage, and contribution 
•  A simple self-check to help you evaluate how you’re showing up—no matter your role 

This isn’t theory.
 This is what people actually feel when leadership is done right—and what breaks when it’s not.

If you’ve ever felt frustrated by leadership (yours or someone else’s), this episode is your reset.

Because if it’s not:

•  Clear 
•  Consistent 
•  Communicated 
•  Owned 
•  And grounded in care 

…it’s not leadership.

🎧 Press play and get back to the basics.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to Trail Talks, the podcast where we talk about growth, the messy, the beautiful, and everything in between. I'm your host, Kelly Kruger, founder of Kelly Michelle Coaching, where we focus on mindset, emotional intelligence, and leadership, all grounded in real life and real science. And joining me is my co-host and partner in growth, founder of Leading People LLC Terrace Toinet, the leadership trainer and facilitator who brings insight, curiosity, and real-world perspective to every episode. So wherever you're listening from today, we're glad you're here, and thank you for joining us on the trail. Hey, we are back, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, hey, how are you feeling good? They missed us. Feeling good. Feeling good. Good. I do have my sabers, my Buffalo Sabre socks on. So I'm wearing navy because I wasn't gonna wear the jersey on the episode. So I am wearing navy and sabers socks because we just broke the 14-year playoff drought. So we made we made the playoffs. Yeah. And guess who we play in 13 minutes? Oh Bay Lightning. Oh, okay. No, I didn't know that. And the Lightning, so we've played them two or three times this season. I think we won two. They won one. Oh, the Lightning The Lightning are two points ahead of us. So the Lightning are first place in the division, and we are in second. Yep. Lightning's pretty good. They're so good. And the Sabres Lightning games have gotten like pretty exciting, like fun to watch. All right. The last two episodes were pretty heavy. We talked about toxic leadership, silent bullying, what silence can do to somebody, or avoidance of hard conversations. So we're gonna lighten it up this episode a little bit and just talk about leadership and followership. Sounds fun. Yeah, the basics of leadership and followership. We're gonna kind of do a what is leadership overall, and then the five kind of basics of leadership, three basics of followership, and then we'll we'll talk about the self-check at the end. So five, three, and a check. All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

So leadership is a lot of things. You can read hundreds of leadership books and study leadership and listen to leadership podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

This one.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

And we love talking leadership and we love studying leadership, and we are leaders and we are not perfect. And I don't know of one leader that that has two perfect days, two perfect consecutive days. You know, it's just doing that self-reflection and and trying to be better the next day. But when we talk about leadership overall, at its core, leadership is one thing and it's influence. When you can influence somebody to perform a certain way, behave a certain way, work a certain way, follow standards, follow policy, excel at their job and move in a certain direction, that is influence. And so the first, oh, I had a book here. Of course, my favorite John Maxwell. Look at and he's a John Maxwell book too. He autographed autographed. He autographed this one. He autographed this was at the international conference that I went to a few years ago. It was amazing. And he always says it, it it's leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. But here he uses it as an acronym. So a person of influence has, and the and the acronym is influence, integrity with people, nurtures other people, faith in people, listens to people, understands people, enlarges people, navigates for other people, connects with people, empowers people, and reproduces other influencers.

unknown 4:11

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, it's one thing. It's influence. It's helping people move toward what matters with purpose, direction, and motivation. So we're gonna kind of go back to basics during this episode: five basics of leadership, three basics of followership, and a quick self-check at the end. So we try to complicate leadership all the time. All we do, we do, we we don't even know what it looks like anymore because we just try to complicate it.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

And sometimes we think it's about how you look, and if you have that charisma and visibility and confidence, sometimes we see somebody that's very confident and think, oh my god, they're a great leader. And then you see them and observe their behavior for a while, and you see patterns, and you're like, oh man, maybe they aren't a great leader. So we tend to know how to describe charisma and visibility and confidence or look polished, but that's not the same thing as leadership. It's gotten over talked, it's overpackaged, overproduced, and it really is less lashy than what people think because it's pretty simple. Yes. So we're gonna cover the five. We'll cover the five basics of leadership. This is just the five that we came up with, and honestly, it's covered in many books. If you read books about high-performing teams, um I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about two right now. We have um, you know, the Google Aristotle project, which they did probably two decades ago, where they studied hundreds of teams. And after studying hundreds of teams and doing all these interviews, they came up with five factors that make up a high-performing team. And this is Google. So their five factors for high-performing teams are psychological safety, and that's the foundation of trust. Um, dependability, that's when we can rely on each other, and reliability builds trust, structure and clarity, roles and goals, meaning, are they connected to the work? And then impact, what I do makes a difference. Okay, so those are five that Google came up with. And then when you look at the five dysfunctions of a team, so I'm gonna talk about Pat Lanchone. So besides John Maxwell, who will talk about influence and laws of leadership and laws of growth and all of that, I am a big fan of Pat Lanchone. Um, he's also has a podcast called At the Table. It's awesome. But when you do the opposite of the five dysfunctions of a team, and I'll just I'll say both. I'll do the five five dysfunctions and then the the reverse of that. So the so the first dysfunction is absence of trust. So what makes a high-performing team is vulnerability-based trust. So you could see that aligns with what Google came up with. Two is fear of conflict. Healthy team is healthy productive conflict. So let's let's challenge each other so we can get this right. Number three is lack of commitment, which then turns into clear commitment, no confusion. So that's kind of like clarity. So the number one and number three completely line up. Yeah. Number four is avoidance of accountability. So then that turns into peer accountability. That's relying on each other and dependability. And then number five is an attention to results, which then turns into focus of collected results, which is like verifiable mission success. It's what what I do makes a difference. And how do we know your purpose? Yeah, how do we know we're good at what we do? And you could read so many books out there about high-performing teams and teamwork and all that, and it's going to say pretty much the same thing, just maybe different words. The Air Force did the same thing when they released their squadron revitalization study back in 2018. It was the same thing. They came up with three attributes of a healthy organization. And those three attributes are all founded on clarity of purpose. But the three attributes are esprit de corps. So am I valued? And am I a valued member of the team? And am I doing meaningful work? That's the esprit de corps. Then it's purposeful leadership. Do I, it's roles and goals. Do I understand what my role is here in this organization? And then verifiable mission success, which is how do we know we're good at what we do? How do we know we're improving? So, anyway, all that to say, you can read all of these books, and we're saving you from reading all these books. Yes. Um, and they're all you like, trust it. Don't think these books are lying to us. They're not lying to us. This is this is what great leadership looks like.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

We're gonna have to get we're gonna have to ask Chat GBT, like combine all of the leadership books and come up with three or maybe five. That would be, you know what I mean? Because it like you said, it's all the same concepts. They just put different, there's so many words in the dictionary, English dictionary.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

It's well, I did I did have it come up with a chart. Oh, I did like last last year when I was when I was looking at the Air Force One and I knew that I was looking at the five dysfunction, I was like, oh my god, it all aligns, it all aligns. Even Simon Sinek's work, John Maxwell's work. I mean, you could read it all. Intrinsic motivation 3.0. It's autonomy, mastery, and purpose. That's all it's all in there. So anyway, so all that to say, the five that we are gonna share really come from these leadership books. And when you look at all these leadership books, we're not lying to you. This is all founded on leadership psychology, motivation science, everything that you're gonna read. Um, and it all aligns. All right, we're gonna start with the five basics of leadership. Basic number one, clarity. Because people need to know. Oh, although they people need to know what matters. Absolutely. I think of roles and goals in this one. They need to know what their purpose is, what the mission is, what success looks like. Not just, hey, we need to improve, but what do we need to improve? How do we need to improve it? And by when do we need to improve it? Good feedback. What good looks like, what right looks like, what we expect, what you don't expect. It leaves people having answers because when people start guessing or if people are confused, then anxiety can build up because they don't know. They don't know, and it's uncertainty, I guess is the right word.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

It's uns it creates uncertainty, which then causes disengagement.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, it's it's our responsibility as leaders to provide clarity. There's going to be uncertainty, there's going to be confusion, but we have that responsibility to create that clarity for them, that understanding. So it's making sure when we do communicate, which is another one, that it's clear and we're answering all their questions. We're trying to answer their questions before they're even asked.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah. I mean, and and I think part of which we will talk about later, but the psychological safety part that you kind of already brought it up, that critical thinking piece, like you're not going to be able to answer every question, but it's about creating that safety so that so that if you can't answer every question, they're not afraid to use their critical thinking skills.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yeah. The things that you can be clear about can find if they're confused about the basics, they're not going to speak up when it matters.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

They're going to be too busy trying to guess what we're thinking. Yeah. Yeah. So so clarity is one. So clarity tells people where they're going. And then the second one that we're going to share tells them whether they can trust us or trust that leader along the way. And that is consistency. Your patterns. Yeah. We as leaders are being watched all the time. We are being observed.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

They notice when you're not having your best day. You could have a hundred good days. That one day you're not having your best day or your best speech or in your best mood, they're going to notice that. That's just how Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

We need to be steady. We need to be steady. They want to know what they're getting from us. And to be consistent as a leader, you first have to know yourself. You have to know who you are, what your purpose is, what you value, what your triggers are. It's all self-awareness. That's what we talk about in the first two realms of emotional intelligence. It's all about how well you know yourself, your emotions, how you react to things, goal setting, your strengths, areas to improve, all of that. If you can lead yourself, you can lead others. But all of that self-awareness gets you to consistency because when you are consistent, your words match your actions. I can say, well, this is my leadership philosophy and what people can expect from me and what I value. But if my actions don't align with my words, that is inconsistency and inconsistency leads to distrust. Consistency builds trust. Inconsistency builds distrust or leads to distrust.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

So you basically start to lose your credibility.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah.

unknown 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Because they're going to see that. Okay, because then that's a pattern. If I say I'm going to do something, or if I say something is important to me, I value it, and my actions don't align, they're going to notice that. And they're going to then start following that pattern.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah. And it, and like you said, like your, I think the key word is align. And you keep saying aligning with your values, your actions. So that doesn't mean perfectionism. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect every day. It just means stay in alignment, be self-aware, make sure your actions match what you're saying or your values or your philosophy or however you want to frame it.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah. And it all starts with self-awareness. And then you want to make sure too that you know you're doing some reflection at the end of the day. Because then how can you be better? And then also asking for feedback. Once people know what matters, and once they know who they're dealing with, which is you as the leader, the next basic is the one that either strengthens the trust or quietly destroys it. And believe it or not, is probably one of the hardest. Yeah. I don't even want to say basic, but it is basic because the word is basic. It's such a hard thing to master. And all of this is about mastering the game of self and leadership. But number three is communication.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Clear communication. That's what I was going to say. Yeah. And that's also part of the psychological safety part and communicating. I was reading this John Maxwell. That's why I said I have a John Maxwell book as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah. Everyone communicates, communicates, few connect. And I think that's a huge piece in the communication part. But one part in this that I that really resonated with me was the Albert Einstein piece. Um, where I guess they were at church or something, and someone at the church goes up to the pastor and says, You're smarter than Albert Einstein. And the pastor was like, What do you mean by that? And he said, Well, Albert Einstein wrote something that only 10 people could understand. You got up there and you were speaking and nobody understood what you were saying. I was like, wait, where's he going with this? But then he was just like, basically, school and us in general, we think that we need to be old, we need to speak. Oh, yeah. And communicate with these big, huge, complicated words that other people have a hard time understanding when really you can just use plain language.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I yeah, I won't do it. Pat Linchoni just had an episode on this a couple weeks ago. And it was um it was, I think it was speak like you're talking to a six-year-old. Because as leaders, we tend to think like we need to speak like so smart and use all these fancy and big words. But if if we speak like that and we don't even understand it, how is anyone else gonna understand it?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, you basically should it's simple, make it simplistic, like we're talking about now, but like dumb down your communication a little bit. That's okay. Because you cut out all the noise. If you use those large words, it actually creates more fog than anything. People don't know what where you're getting at. It happens all the time in our leadership meetings, and sometimes somebody used something, and I said, I was just like, What does that mean? They just started laughing, and I'm like, if I don't understand it, I don't think when you go to tell the rest that they're gonna understand it.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, sometimes I never heard, and I I would say more than sometimes simple is the solution. Simplicity is the solution. You can have the most complex problem, and I guarantee if you just use simplicity, you will have a solution. And like I, you know, I speak in very basic, simple terms, and kind of that's how I learn too. If something seems complex for me, I will drop it into AI and say, explain this in clear, simple language for me. Because then I want to explain it in clear, slimp, simple language so people understand it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I do the same. I I try to, I guess that's the instructor part of us. Whenever I learn something, I try to learn it in a way that I can turn around and explain it in a simple way so that everyone understands.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, but also with communication, we tend to think that just because we send a message to somebody that the message is understood, that that is communication, but it's not communication. Communication is sending a message and the receiver understanding it and accepting it. And we confuse that because we tend to speak our own language and words that we understand versus what they would want. And this this goes back to what we both know the five voices. Yeah, even disk, but speaking to others and how they would receive messages, instructions, you know. And the giant worldwide, the company that came up with the five voices, also has a communication code that that I love. And it's five C's because they say, you know, just because you send a message doesn't that doesn't make the communication. The communication is for both parties, the sender and the receiver. But there's five C's, and there are five pretty much code words that if you communicate with anyone, you're doing one of these five C's, and it's care. So just maybe you matter, I see you. So I'll go through the five and then we could talk about it. So there's care, which is you matter. So if you're having a conversation with me or I'm talking to you and I'm venting about something, I would tell you, hey, I just want care right now. I don't want critique, I don't want your feedback. Like I'm just coming to you to vent, and it would mean a lot if you would just show me care. Then there's celebrate, which is I see you, you did great work. So we would celebrate each other, but celebrate how that person would want to celebrate, not so much how I would. And then collaborate, which is we're gonna figure this out together. And then there's critique, that is the feedback, constructive feedback. How are we going to improve? And then clarify. So the clarity piece, which is needing to understand what this means moving forward. Regardless of who you're communicating with, you're probably using one of those five C's communication. So it's important to know what that person wants, why that person is coming to you, what what which C are they coming to you about? And I know for me that there sometimes is confusion. If I just want to vent, I don't want critique, I just I just want care in those situations. Also, celebrate is something to learn too, because sometimes we tend to celebrate in ways that we would want, like birthdays and stuff, when really it should be about what that person wants. And the way Giant Worldwide, uh, I forgot his name, Kubaček, something Kubaček explains it. It's you know, the golden rule is treat others how you would want to be treated. But in the case of the five voices and the communication code, it's treat others how they would want to be treated. Yeah. So that's the platinum rule, which is pretty cool. Yeah. But anyway, I am going to try these five C's. Um, because really either even if you try critique, you you don't want to critique somebody without caring first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

And I like how they all kind of fall in line with the five we came up with. We already talked about clarity, consistency, now communication. And moving on from the next one, it'll fit it fits right into the the five C's.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, we've got so if communication is saying what needs to be said, the fourth basic is then having the maturity to go first. And so basic number four is ownership. What being a leader is, it's owning it all. Yeah, going first.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

It's going first. And accountability, humility, conversations, because we're not calling them difficult conversations, just conversations in general.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, it's it's being out front, it's leading out front, taking the ownership if things don't work out well. It's not blaming the team, it's blaming yourself. I own this. Always doing that reflection that if a mistake is made or something goes wrong, regardless of what it is, it's as the leader, what could I have done to mitigate this? What could I have done to prevent this?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah, I'm real big on that. It's I think that's just the one thing that I definitely learned growing up. In the military and and just in my career in general, is that I'm gonna take blame for it. If I'm the one that's in charge and you mess up or something wasn't right, either I didn't communicate well, I wasn't clear, or heck, I told you to take the reins and go and you made a mistake. It's okay. I'm I will take the fall for it.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

And I don't think enough people do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

No, and if they don't, it could be ego. Maybe they aren't used to being humble and they need to practice some humility. But it is. I mean, if if we're leading that team, if we're leading those people and something goes wrong or there's mistakes, I mean, you gotta look in the mirror. You gotta look in the mirror first.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Yeah. And you know, I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just to put that out there, that maybe just as if someone um underneath me or or working with me or whatever is afraid to step up because of the me as their boss, or is because of their boss, that leader might feel the same way. There's no someone, everyone forks to someone. And so maybe they're not having that psychological safety. Maybe they're not having all of these things that we're talking about, the five um basics of leadership. And so now that's what makes them kind of weary of taking ownership and doing certain things.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah. Yeah. So some phrases, what ownership sounds like, it's this one is on me. I need to be more clear. I should have addressed it sooner. Let me fix what I can fix. Let me go first. It's just not having excuses.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

And I feel like if you um, I know we're getting into followership later, but if you take ownership, that that says a lot. And then your team will step up for you. You won't even have to expect them to or ask them to. They're going to do it.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yep, they'll see it. They'll see it. They'll know it. All right, so we'll go on to five. So clarity, consistency, communication, and ownership are the first four. Um, still not enough because we have humans economics. And I love number five. Number five is care. Seems simple. It seems simple, right? Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite quotes is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Yeah. Oh, I love that. It's so true. It is true, yeah. They need to see that you care first.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah, and depending on what your career is, you can make it more difficult for caring to happen based on like, oh, we have to be. They don't want it to be like emotionally messy or seem come across weak or whatever, you know. So I think the leader sometimes has a hard time with that balance.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah, because they think of care as a soft skill, and we use the phrase soft skills. You know how I feel about that. Yeah. I they're hard freaking skills, people. Yeah, they are. They're the hardest ones. They really are. And caring is tough because caring requires time, it requires somebody, a leader, to take time to invest in somebody, even if it's sending a text 20 seconds that says, How are you doing? or a text that says happy birthday. It's amazing what a happy birthday text will do. And it can change their day, really.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah. I mean, I've been in situations where I had a boss or whatever that never asked me about if I had a kid or my family or how was your Christmas or whatever, and then two years of being in that, and then someone else comes, and a new boss comes in, and the first thing they ask is, Hey, do you have kids? Um, do you have family in the area? And I we're just like, You want to know? And it was just like, okay, I automatically feel differently about this person that I just met for five minutes compared to my old boss, you know? Yeah, it's just like, oh, I trust you now. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Well, because wall when walls start coming down. Yeah. Exactly. And then trust starts to build. Just a simple conversation, and that is care. When it goes beyond the work, and when they truly ask how you're doing, how your family is, or remember the names in your family, your kids' name. That just means a lot. It means that they care. All right. So those are the five basics of leadership clarity, consistency, communication, ownership, and care. So now we'll talk about the side of the conversation that gets ignored way too often, and that is followership. All right, so we have three basics of followership. So one of the biggest mistakes we make is assuming that leadership is active and followership is passive. It is not. So our three basics, basic number one is ownership without authority. You may not have the title, you may not have the position, but you have the responsibility for how you're going to show up every day. So don't wait to care. You should always care, always show up, always do your best. You don't want to wait to be told every little thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

You want to be proactive. So healthy followers influence the environment that they're in as well. Just as much as leadership, leaders have to influence the environment, followers and followership is also influencing the environment.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

And honestly, it it helps the leader. And it then it helps the team because those followers are going to bring energy, they're going to bring different perspectives. And the more energy the leader is using, and the only perspective that leaders have, like they're going to get burnt out. And then guess who's going to be on the receiving end of that burnout? It's going to be the team. So the more the followers can own the mission just as much as the leader, the better off that they're going to be.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah. And leaders don't forget that it's our job to help influence these followers to do these things. To have the to have the same type of influence. But it doesn't mean as a follower to overstep. It just means that you're contributing.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah. Yeah. And they help shape the culture too. Sometimes even more so than the leader. I mean, the leader is going to shape it, but the followers should eventually become the leaders. Yeah.

unknown 28:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And that's how we know as leaders, we're developing other leaders. No, I was going to say that there was actually something.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

What was it? Oh, why leadership is so complicated now? Partly is because of the whole follow the courage, not the courage. I can't talk right now. What was I going to say?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Amygdala?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Here. Okay, I remember. It works. So when in doubt, when in doubt, I'm going to say amygdala.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Amygdala. So I can't remember. I had to find my note. But um what I was going to say, okay. So the followership is influenced from a different position. And there's a quote out there that says, you don't build the business, you build the people who build the business. So nowadays, CEOs, whoever owns the business, they're not building just the business. They have to build those people who build it because that's the change that we're experiencing from back in the day when you didn't worry about building the people, you just worried about building the business first. Well, now with the organizational changes and the generational changes and gaps, basically now what they're saying is that the employees define the business. So it's more it's very important that we create good followers.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Heck yeah. Love it. Hey, number two is courage. Oh, I that was not a good one. Courage. Was it the lion? It was the lion in the wizard of ours. Yeah. Oh, he was the best. He was the best. All right, number two, courage. Not disrespect, not recklessness. It's the courage to ask questions, the courage to challenge respectfully, respectfully people, and the courage to speak when silence would be easier.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

That's a hard one.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

And but in order to have this, in order to have courageous followers, that's I guess what I'll say. In order to have courageous followers, there there must be psychological safety in the workplace. Yes. Because if you don't, people will not have the courage to ask questions or ask for clarification or ask the why. And their voices matter.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

And then as a leader, again, that falls back into our concepts and being able to take the feedback. Because I know I am not the person to stay silent. That's just not how I operate. I'm going to be respectful about it. But sometimes when you ask too many questions or you leadership thinks you're challenging them too often, it comes up, it can come across as being disrespectful, even though you're coming from a good place and you're using communication to the best of your ability, you know. But um, you do have to have that psychological safety. You have to, and you have to receive feedback. There's four pillars of psychological safety that I looked at. There's inclusion safety, which you belong here. Learner safety, it's okay not to know. Contributor, my work matters. And challenger safety, I can speak the truth.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Yeah, and I think it's important you have to have that safe psychological safety and so that your followers will speak up. Because at the end of the day, it's our job to protect and help leadership or boss or whoever that is.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Well, and it's it goes back to leadership is influence. It goes back to influence because people want to be cared for, they want to do meaningful work, they want to know that their work matters and what they do matters. And in order for all of that, there there needs to be psychological safety. There needs to be trust. They you cannot influence them if there is if they are not safe. And you need to influence them. All right, number three followership is contribution. I think we've heard that that saying of if you bring me problems, bring me solutions. Overused. No, I will that I am saying I am not a huge fan of that saying. It's not psychologically safe.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

You're not using one of the four pillars. What is it? Learner safety. It's okay to not know. It's okay to be like, it's okay to say this doesn't work because that's psychological safety. I can speak the truth, but it's okay to not have a solution.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, in some cases, like it just depends on the situation. I would say, okay, well, let's collaborate, let's talk through this together so I can help them reach a solution. But but the reason that they're coming to you is because they don't have a solution. They would solve it.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, they would tell you.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, we I actually did an exercise with at the job, and we what's it called? A hot wash. And we put up a bunch of things where we did well, what we didn't do well. And then I mean because I I always come from if you don't come with a problem, come with a solution. At the bottom of my sticky note, because you had to put them on these like pads or whatever, I had a solution for every one of my problems. Oh, I can't just write up your issues. Like, yes, you can. That's why we're here. We're collaborating to try and fix them and create processes. But it was like I already thought of one because I'm not going to be the one they're like, Well, why'd you come without a solution? Oh, you're right. That's not psychological state.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

I mean, it's it's if I'm coming to you with a problem, chances are I don't have a freaking solution. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

And I need help. I think the one that I didn't have a solution for, because I I didn't have a solution because I didn't have all of the I didn't have the entire process. So the question more was like, hey, this X didn't happen. It what is the normal process and where did it fail? Or is there a process? That was more of like the issue. And they're like, and I start getting a tap, and I'm like, the one that I don't have a freaking solution for. They're like coming at me. It was all good and fun though. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

And you know, in order to solve problems, we have to think different. It's that Einstein quote: like, you can't solve problems from the same level of consciousness you had when they were created. So sometimes we can't get out of our own heads to think different to solve problems. So I would just say, you know, if you're gonna bring a problem, bring an open mind, bring humility, bring flexibility, you know, bring bring those so we can collaborate and work through it together to come up with some solutions.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah, you don't have to have the answers. We just want you to contribute. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, yep. All right. So that was ownership, courage, and contribution. Basics of followership, people. All right, let's take a quick detour and then we'll get back to the self-check. Okay, all right, detour. Okay, so we are going to build our fantasy Marvel team. So we're gonna do a Marvel draft. Let me see. Let me see if I can get through these rules here, and this won't take long. We're gonna build our ultimate Marvel team head to head. So you build your team, I'm gonna build mine. Okay. Uh, we get five picks, one per role, and I'm gonna explain the roles in a minute. No duplicates. So if you take one from a certain role, I can't pick that one. Okay, so so if I pick somebody first, they're off the board. So the five roles leader, powerhouse, brain, wild card, and underrated. And these are all Marvel characters. So we got to decide the draft order who's going first. You can, since you since you don't watch, since you don't watch anything. Okay, we'll just do regular draft. Okay. And then if our teams got into a fight, like who would win? Who's gonna be the judge of that? We'll let the audience figure that out. Oh, okay. Okay. We'll post each team and then say who who would win in a fight. Okay. All right. All right, here we go. Okay, so these are the options. You don't have to pick the best character, you just gotta pick the best fit for your team. Okay, so the first role is the leader on your team, and your options are Captain America, director of shield. I don't know some of these either. Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Star Lord, or Captain Marvel. I'll repeat the popular ones that you would know. Captain America, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel. This is the leader of your team.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Okay. Cheating. Okay. You could cheat. I don't even know how you would cheat. How would you cheat? Oh, I'm Googling what they each one can do. Oh, I'm gonna go with I'm going Black Panther and you want it.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, I feel like he was smart when I watched that one. I did watch it.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I love Black, I love Black Panther. All right, well, I'm gonna do very obvious as the leader of my team, Captain America. Leader. All right.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

So that means I can't use Captain America again.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Correct. Okay. They will not be they will not be in the lineup anymore. That's the one. So because I've got different characters now. The next the next one, your powerhouse. Powerhouse.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, and Okay. Let me just read them again. Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, and Thanos. Thor. Alright, I'm gonna go with Hulk. Yeah. Hulk. Okay. It was either Thor, Thor, or Hulk for me.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah, same. The next one is the Brain.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

The Brain. Okay, you've got Iron Man, Princess of Wakanda. Bruce Banner is the scientist behind the Hulk. Peter Parker, Spider-Man, or Ant Man. And that's like their human character, not like their superhero name. So Tony Stark, Shuri is the princess of Wakanda. Bruce Banner is the scientist. Peter Parker is Spider-Man, and Hank is Ant-Man. I'm gonna go hot go with Peter Parker. Oh my god, you're taking you are taking all of mine. But I would honestly, my top two Marvel characters of all time are Spider-Man and Iron Man, and probably Iron Man is number one. So I am going to go with Tony Stark. Very happy with that. Okay, my next would have been Wakanda, though, because I gotta get somebody on mine from Black Panther. Okay, the wild card. I don't know some of these. We've got wild. Yeah, we've got Loki Loafison from Loki, Wade Wilson from Deadpool, Rocket from Rocket Raccoon, Scott Lang from Ant-Man, Groot from Groot, and Eddie Brock from Venom. I'm definitely going with Deadpool. Deadpool?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Okay. I'm gonna go with Eddie Brock from Venom.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

And underrated. Okay, the under underrated are Hawkeye, Black Widow, Winter Soldier, or War Machine. I don't know some of these.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Let's see. I'm gonna go with Black Widow.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Okay. I'm gonna do Winter Soldier. Bucky Burns. Okay, there we go. You've got your leader, your powerhouse, your brain, wildcard, and underrated. That is your ultimate marble team. So who's your ultimate marble team?

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Black Panther, Thor, Peter Parker, Deadpool, and Black Widow.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

So good. Mine's Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Venom, and Winter Soldier. That's pretty good too, though. Oh yeah, I like it.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

All right, we'll uh we'll post those and see what people vote on. All right. Okay, back to it. All right, we went through the basics of leadership, the five basics, the three basics of followership, and we want to do a quick self-check before we close this out. So if you're a leader, you can ask yourself, where am I unclear? Where am I inconsistent? Where am I avoiding a conversation? Where am I failing to own something that is mine to own? And have my people felt cared for or just managed.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

And if you're a follower, ask yourself, where am I waiting instead of stepping up? Where do I need more courage? Am I contributing or am I just commenting? That's good. That's a good question. That last one.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

All right, those are the basics. Not complicated, but we complicate it when we avoid, when we don't say anything, when we hide, or we're just trying to perform when we make it about us. So at its core, leadership is influence and it's clarity, consistency, communication, ownership, and care. And then followership is ownership without authority, courage without a title, and contribution without waiting for permission. So if you want to be better leaders, be a better follower. If you want better culture, model it. If you want healthier teams, get back to basics. Because after everything we just talked about in this episode, this is what leadership and followership are supposed to be. And if it's not this, then it's not leadership. All right. Until next time, thanks for joining us on the trail. Before we wrap up, if today's conversation resonated with you, you don't have to walk your journey alone. I offer emotional intelligence assessments with personalized coaching, one on one mindset coaching, and leadership development for teams and organizations. You can explore all of that at Kellymichelle Coaching.com. Link in the show notes. And I'll leave you with this awareness is powerful, but support is transformational.