It’s Not What You Feel. It’s What You Emit.

I could feel them shut down. 

What happens when you feel yourself shift and can’t quite stop it? 

Weakly electric fish navigate murky water by emitting a constant field, and everything in range responds to it. Rose didn't make her team shut down. She emitted a signal. 

How does a system stay intelligent when defensiveness enters the room? Nature has been solving for this for 3.8 billion years. 

In Feral's first ever collaboration, our host Pia sits down with Rose — a leadership coach, longtime friend and closet puffer fish — to let the weakly electric fish show us the way.

Name it. Contain it. Date it.

First ever Feral collab. Please like or comment - tell us if you want more.

Nature owns the patent. We get to copy it.

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Created and hosted by Pia Williams
Clever by Nature. Feral by Design.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was not myself. I was a bit short and grumbly and directive, which is opposite. It's not you. No.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

What happens when you feel yourself shift and you can't quite stop it? That's where I found myself with my friend Rose a few weeks ago. Rose and I have lived a lot of life together. We've studied together, worked together, supported each other through all sorts of work and life seasons. She's led teams in the water and environmental sector, working at serious scale in global organizations, and now coaches leaders in some pretty high-stakes spaces. So when she was in town recently, I playfully asked her to bring me a challenge. Something she was wrestling with in her leadership work or in her past experiences. And I would go and have a little chat with nature about it and see what ideas came back. Another experiment, completely unscripted, that took about a lifetime to edit down. But inside all that riffing was something really interesting. We came to this particular space that we're going to plug you into just now that we actually thought ended up being an interesting enough challenge for me to go away and see what I could find.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

And one of the big thing that came back to me, Pia, was really thinking about how often it's the stories that we're telling ourselves that we step away from things and get really defensive.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

It feels like it almost changes the person, this defensiveness. And for me, again, one of the core tenets I think for innovation obviously is curiosity. I just see curiosity seep out of every pore with every defensive comment. It's a human nature thing to do to get defensive. But to watch it happen, I immediately, I've seen it so many times, I immediately think, oh, hang on. This feels like innovation itself is starting to shut down as a result.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah. Recently, when I was working with my team and we had a team meeting where we were mapping out what we were going to be doing in the next quarter, and the team were clearly saying to me, it's too much. And all I could say was like was just so defensive. I was like, well, this is what we've agreed. This is what we're going to get done. And I could feel it in myself. I could feel that icky feeling where I wasn't being myself, but I didn't want to admit I was wrong or that we'd taken on too much because again, I just kept thinking, well, it's my fault. Because you're going to be able to do that. I was the leader of the group. I had said we'd do it. Yeah, if things go wrong, I'm a big believer in I should take the fall for that. And if things go right, then it's the team. Yes. So for me, I just could feel myself peer. It was terrible. Like I was not myself. I was a bit short and grumpy and directive, which is opposite.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

It's not you. No. And so what happened? How did that manifest for the team then when you push back?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

We were online, but even online, I could feel them just go. We say part of our core value is about centering care, how we're going to work as a team and find new ways. And then as soon as we raise there's an issue for us, you just all out. Yeah, so I could feel them shut down. I could almost feel them back away and ready to go back into transactional. Well, what's next? Okay. I didn't quite wasn't able to stop myself in the moment, but I could tell.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Have you seen that then almost be a handshake onto someone else, then mirroring back what their leader's behaviour is?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Absolutely, where it does become quite pervasive in the team, then being modelled in the negative. And I think we can see it in families as well, of behaviors between different family members. It all gets modelled so much.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

When someone shows that they are reacting and being defensive, even a child jumping out of work for a second, if there's a teenager, have I just got some people listening now, um, who are pushing back. So where you've got a parent who has always said the layer of the land is this, and you get to that prickly tricky little teenage age where they start pushing back and actually, on some things, do know stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah. They push the boundaries. You just want to shut them down and say no, because you're tired and you're defensive and you're like, no, actually, I'm the adult here. I really sometimes had to work hard to not fall into that defensive just because I said because I said I felt like I was also returning to Toddlehood.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

That's gold rose. Okay, I think we have found the challenge now. Is it gonna be a mole that helps me? Sorry, I know I'm too literal in my bummer mimicry. Who knows? It might be a mole. I have no idea. That's really made me laugh. Now I will have to look at mole score. Okay, game on. All right, I can't wait to come back and hear what nature's got to share. Thanks so much for that. See you in a while. Crocodile. Always have to have the last word. So after that conversation with Rose, I went away to sit with what she'd described. Here's what I kept coming back to. Rose said I could feel them shut down. Not I made them shut down. She felt it happen. And that made me wonder, what if defensiveness isn't just something we feel? What if it's something we emit? Here's what I think was actually happening. Rose isn't defending the work. She's defending who she is in relation to the work. And that's why curiosity collapses. That's why the room contracts, and that's why people retreated into a more transactional mode. And I'm thinking that defensiveness breeds defensiveness. So maybe the question isn't how do I stop being defensive? Maybe the question is how do systems stay intelligent when threat is present? Because that's what nature's been solving for the 3.8 billion years that I'm always talking about. So let's go back to Rose's moment. There were three things happening at once. First, the spike itself, involuntary, immediate. Second, she was aware of it. She could feel it. She just couldn't stop it. And third, the system reacted. Her team shut down, pulled back, went transactional. The whole field shifted. Three dynamics. And what's interesting is weakly electric fish have something to say about all three. Picture this. You're in a murky river. Somewhere in the Amazon or West Africa. The water is thick with sediment. Visibility is basically zero. It's like being in a room where someone's turned off all the lights. You can't see your hands in front of your face. Now imagine you're a fish trying to navigate this. You're trying to find food, you're trying to avoid becoming food, you're trying to find your way home. What do you do when you can't see? These fish, and there are hundreds of species of them, some black and white, some beige, some with the most ridiculous whiskers, and little frills that wave as they actually swim. They solve this problem in the most extraordinary way. They emit electricity constantly. Not a zap, a hum. A gentle electric field that pulses out from their body in this invisible bubble. Like they're broadcasting their own personal radio signal 24-7. Everything that moves through that field, whether it's rocks or plants or other fish and food, it all distorts the field slightly, creates ripples, shadows, if you like, in the electricity. So the fish isn't seeing, it's feeling the shape of the world through these tiny electrical disturbances. A predator feels very different to dinner. That electrical field changes involuntarily. The field goes from all clear to something's wrong in an instant. Other fish within range, they feel it immediately. The whole vibe of the water just changes. That's what Rose was describing. She didn't intend to push her team away, but the moment she went into threat mode, the field shifted. She felt it. And her team responded to the field. Defensiveness isn't just what you feel, it's what you emit. And it changes the environment for everyone in the room. For the fish, this is actually elegant. There's a disturbance here, adjust accordingly. It's information, it's not a verdict. When the threat passes, the fish returns to baseline frequency. They've figured out how to navigate these shifts without the whole system collapsing. Three strategies we can steal. Here's the first one. When one fish's frequency spikes, the others don't spike back. They sense the shift, adjust their navigation, and keep their own signal steady. So what if we used state changes as navigational information, not threat triggers? For me, that means name your state. If your state is going to leak into the room anyway, then the move isn't to control it, it's to name it. But here's the thing: naming only works if people know what your baseline actually is. In my team, my baseline is I ask questions, I'm very curious, I lean forward. So when I suddenly go sharp and directive and short and lean back, my team knows immediately that's not baseline, that's a spike. If you've never shown people your baseline, they can't tell when you've shifted. One of the simplest lines I've ever used is please don't react to my tone. That's it. You're not explaining, you're not regulating, you're telling the system how to respond. Sometimes you can see yourself doing it and still be stuck inside it. And when you don't name it, people read the field anyway, don't they? But they personalize it. Whereas if you name it, they don't personalize it. I've experienced that moment myself, and it's really hard because sometimes being more aware can actually make it worse. I just kind of watch myself in front of me. I know I'm doing it, but I can't help it because I'm feeling a bit attacked in that moment. Rose said it too. I wasn't able to stop myself in the moment, but I could tell I wasn't at my best. So if she'd been able to say, I might sound sharp, but don't let that shut this down, two things happen. One, her team gets permission to hold the work steady. And two, Rose separates her state from the content. She's not saying, ignore me, or I'm fine. Both of those are unrealistic. She's saying, I'm in a different place right now. Don't let it reshape what we're building. The work stays intelligent, even when the leader's signal is spiked. Separate signal from content. That's the electric fish move. Now, naming your state is powerful, but it's not always enough. Sometimes I can't name it. Sometimes it's just pervasive, you know? So here's the second fish strategy. The fish's frequency spike is localized. It doesn't change the entire river's baseline. One scared fish affects the immediate area, but the system as a whole maintains its broader frequency. So for me, that means contain the defensive energy and localize it. The fish's field is limited by its physical distance, right? We don't have that built in, obviously, so we have to build it deliberately. In team settings, this might look like what I'm calling two-channel work. I'm sure there's a sexier term. When you sense people are getting defensive and ideas are shrinking, you don't pretend it's not happening. You name it, and then you split the work into two channels. I've actually said this out loud in sessions. Okay, I can feel we've gone defensive. Let's split this. Channel A, defend. What are the actual constraints? Let's map those on a whiteboard, let's get them all out there. Channel B, what if those constraints weren't there? What would we try? We'll spend 10 minutes in defend mode, let's map that cleanly, and then 15 minutes, or whatever, in explore mode. It's about giving it a bounded space so it doesn't take over everything. In true feral form, the same principle works in families and relationships. It just looks different. You can't exactly announce defend mode to your teenager or your partner, God help you. That might escalate things a bit. So instead, you can create a defensive sandbox. A space where defensive energy gets worked through before it touches the core relationship or the critical decision in play. I can feel I'm getting defensive about this money conversation. Like we've all been there. I don't trust my judgment right now. So can we park that for a moment and just figure out what we actually need to decide tonight? Here's why containment matters so much. There's another little creature that responds to threat really differently, and that's the pufferfish. I'm smiling because I love it so. When pufferfish sense danger, it inflates, it huffs up, it makes itself twice its size. And yes, it's safe then. Nothing can eat it, but here's the cost. It can't move very easily. It's sacrificing mobility and it can't feed very easily. It floats there, blown up and stuck. Once the threat passes, it does have a deflation mechanism. And that makes me then ask myself the question, have I designed my own equivalent? Or do I just stay puffed up long after the danger is gone? And I think we both know the answer to that. For us, a team or a family living permanently inflated is just stuckness. When defensiveness isn't contained, when it takes over that whole system, you end up safe but stuck. Electric fish modulate. Huff a fish inflate. One stays intelligent under pressure, the other chooses safety over mobility. So we've named the signal, we've contained it or sandboxed it, depending on where you are. But here's where most systems, in my experience, fail. We don't design for recovery. When the threat clears, the fish returns to baseline automatically. And this isn't a single event, it's a process. Its system is continuously sensing. So as the threat retreats, the field adjusts. We're just not built that way. We carry our spike states around with us well after threat is gone. In the decisions we've made and the no's that we never revisit. The defensive spike passes, Rosie's team meeting ends, or the argument with your partner winds down into silence. But the decisions made during that spike, they stick around. The no I said when I was defensive becomes a permanent no. The constraint you put in place to feel safe becomes systems law. Over time, defensiveness becomes identity. We're the team that can't take risks. We're the family that doesn't talk about hard things. So for me, a more practical version of a return mechanism is putting a review date on any decision made in a spike. Because without this, we never check if the threat is actually still there. Have you noticed that? So in our world, it might be that decision was made in defend mode. Let's revisit it now that things have settled a bit. And sometimes recovery looks like this simple question. What did we miss in the spike? When the signal was noisy, what couldn't get through? Just like the fish, when the threat's gone, the spike doesn't need to stay. And that's how I think intelligence comes back. Not by ignoring the defensive moment, but by going back and resensing what you might have missed. Because the real cost of defensiveness isn't the actual spike. It's when it becomes permanent. Okay, Rose, it's been a minute. It takes a while. First, what are your thoughts on what you've seen so far?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Ma'am, nature is so clever. I love this opportunity to dive in, and I've learned so much. A bit about how we're emitting signals and how we can use that. Obviously, my example I feel was in a negative state of defensiveness. But for me, how we might be able to flip that and use it in as a positive strength. I loved that. For me though, the question you put of how do we use all of this so that systems stay intelligent is just gold. And that's where I feel like I want to play that forward. How do we do that? And so what is it about that? I think it's because my example was a very in the moment, but the thinking about how do the systems stay intelligent, you can zoom that right out as to how we live in our worlds and workplaces, our homes, whatever that looks like for us. That's my favorite bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

The key takeout for me, it's the first time that I've ever thought about defensiveness, not just being something how you feel, but being something that you emit.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

And of course, the field is being read by everyone who's in the vicinity. Whether they're even conscious of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

When you pointed out that I felt defensive and could feel the response from the team that I had emitted that defensiveness was such a penny drop through that. Double-click on that, I want to explore that more. Especially if it's like the weekly electric fish, and these are these gentle things that we're putting out. I do a lot of coaching and leadership work and talk a lot about creating trusted spaces. And a lot of it is really hard to explain, but it is that you emit a sense of trust, emit a sense of safety, which is really hard to measure and notice, but people can feel it. And that to me is the incredible possibility of this of getting us really conscious of what it is that we are emitting to those around us. One of the other things that I loved is that I see this fish in really murky water and thriving, and we are swimming and living in really murky waters, really murky times. And those signals that we're all emitting to each other are creating this environment for us. So, how can we keep thriving? Some days they're crystal clear, some days they are super murky.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

And I like what you're saying there around that, applying some of the potential strategies and applications to help you navigate murky situations and to not just help yourself do that, but to help your team navigate murky situations is a really nice way to frame it, I think.

unknown 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

You said I could feel them shut down. And when you said that, I was like, oh, this is interesting. You didn't say I can see them shut down. Not I made them shut down. You said you can feel them.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah. Can I just say on the fishes? Um, because you mentioned a puff of fish and I felt like a puffer fish in my reaction. I'm so stuck. Whereas the weekly, I want to imagine myself as a weekly electric fish. Love it. Imagine when you get to that point where you explain to teams, you're like, okay, everyone has an inner puffer fish. And it helped I'm a visual person, as you know, and it helps not just to name what's going on, but to name I don't want to get into the puffer fish state here. As soon as you talked about the puffer fish, I could see that I was a puffer fish in that moment. I was stuck in my defensiveness, trying to keep myself safe. So having that for me and that sense of playfulness that it gives me as well. Sorry, puffer fish, I do think of you with a smile, but I want to be the weakly electric fish and stay agile and responsive and aware of the signals I'm putting out and learning. So good.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Okay, so so designing systems that navigate the spike without collapsing is my other re expression of how does the room stay intelligent when defensiveness pops in.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

So name it, contain it, and date it are the three. Yeah. I want to get into the name it, date it, contain it. So when I Listen to you about the baseline, thinking about how that baseline isn't just affected about working in that moment, and thinking more about the broader context of myself during that time. And we did have a stressful situation with the foster care work that we're doing. So there are a whole lot of reasons why I was more reactive. And so for me, it's such a reminder of where we feel comfortable bringing our wholeselves to work and letting people know other stuff that's happening in our lives so that they've got an understanding as well when those spikes happen. I think there's so much in that. And I think for us as a team that really values care of each other, which I think is why I was feeling so triggered about your reflection that I was defending who I am in the work as I reflect on it more now. And I did a little equation for myself, Pierre, as I was thinking about it of work overload equals burnout equals a leader who's not caring about their people. And I was like, oh, that's a big leap that I made. Yeah I was responding to without even realizing.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

The language, my signal spiked. Don't change the work based on my frequency right now. That would have shifted what happened.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I think it would have. And I also think me having the example of the biomimicry and the weekly fish to share so that we as a team have that as a shared understanding, I think it would really help. Yeah. So when you name it and say, I'm feeling really defensive about this, I'm not quite myself. Just that feels like a release to me as well as I'm sure a release to the system. That's what I'll get myself back to my baseline. That to me contains your impact. Speaking of containment.

unknown 23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

So having those two different channels and being able to deploy that on your feet. Interested in your thoughts on that. Can't do both at the same time. Well, that's what we try to do, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

When I think about the channel A or channel B, defend or explore, and why I really didn't want you to say I had to choose one or the other, because my natural and comfortable place is explore. Absolutely. So I feel so uncomfortable in defend. And so maybe that's also why I get so cranky in it, because I don't want to sit in that defend, defend.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

You should have let me guess whether you're better in channel A or by giving you permission to be there, but also responsibility to be in this headspace as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Because you say you can also be absolutely at my best in that defend channel A, because I'm getting those signals and being my weekly electric fish. So I'm really stuck with my ugly little fish. He's so beautiful. What he's teaching me of yeah, what can I learn in that mindset? It contains it. I'm playing in this space for a while and staying in this bit of the murky water.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Oh, I love that. The third one is date it. So design this for recovery. This was more around saying, if you are in a spike and you make a decision, let's say, even as a parent, you're like, because I just said so, because I'm over it and I'm so puffed. And I'm like, that's it. You're never allowed to eat chocolate again.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

So you say never eat chocolate again. One of the young kids that comes to stay with us regularly. We were away at the beach, and she had an ice cream that she just made the worst mess I have ever seen. And it was windy and there was ice cream blowing everywhere. I said to her in a spike, I am never trusting you with an ice cream again. And she was with us on the weekend, it was super hot. And I'm like, let's get an ice cream. And she looked at me and said, But I thought you weren't ever gonna trust me with an ice cream again. And I was like, So I did say that in a moment where I wasn't feeling my best sweetheart. I didn't mean it. Let's get an ice cream.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Terrible. I'm laughing because that is so human, isn't it? Because you can't override it.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

So you're just like, oh no, that was then, this is now. I hope it's a joke we keep telling until she's 21. I'm sure she's not still confused by it until she's 21 as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

If you have to make some decisions, you're at least able to make those calls around dating it to go. Let's read about this. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Is that fully realistic? Yeah, absolutely realistic. And I think in that case as well, sometimes it's helpful to name it out loud for everyone, but also just internally for yourself, because it also is freeing, isn't it? We made that decision in that moment, how we were feeling then, but also with the information we had at that moment. Let's just check, does that still hold for us? I can see absolutely how that can work at work because it also helps with all the different types of personalities that don't feel comfortable speaking up at the moment. You're bringing them back in. Yes, very much.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

And especially if things are getting prickly and spiky, some people absolutely recoil, even if you've named it and you're saying keep having ideas and all that sort of stuff. I will work on being able to say, let's revisit the output that came from today in a week's time. Let's have a quick check. Because there were some spiky moments there, not just saying sometime down the road. Before we wrap this up though, Rose, of those three, do you have one that resonates more than the others?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

I think the name it feels really natural. I feel like I I will absolutely be doing that. I think what will take me into a bit more of that stretch is the contain it and to be much more conscious of which of the mindsets I'm going into and leaning into defend.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Any quick little top tip you want to throw out to our friends who are devouring feral as you speak?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

My top tip from all of this for me is this picture I have in my mind of the murky waters that we're in and the beauty of those murky waters and how we can be really conscious of what we're emitting, but also the signals that we're getting from others. So, how can we be aware of that? Yes, and as those three beautiful things name it, contain it, date it so that we can keep moving forward and navigate. That's what I'm taking away from all this. Nice, awesome. Thanks, Rose. Are you gonna have like an emoji of a puffer fish over my face? Well, I am now. Thank you, my friend. You're the best. What a treat. What a treat to get to explore nature with you. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Pia. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Okay, thanks, Rose. Here's what I keep thinking about after this conversation with Rosie. She didn't make her team shut down, she emitted a signal and those in range responded to it. She didn't decide to get defensive, the frequency just shifted. And the whole virtual room felt it before she could do anything about it. But that's not a flaw. That's a fish. And if the fish can modulate, if the fish can navigate murky water, sense threat, spike, and still find its way back to baseline, then maybe we can too. With a little more design and a little less self-judgment. Intelligence doesn't disappear under threat necessarily. It just needs different conditions. This collab format was a bit of an experiment for Ferrell. Did it land for you? Please drop a like or a comment wherever you're listening. I'm really keen to know if you want more. I'm Pia, and this week's episode was brought to you by the marvellous weekly electric fish, who's been quietly navigating through murky times for a very, very long time and doing it without a single team meeting. This is Feral by Design. Nature owns the patent, we get to copy it.