Jim Harris

Dr. Jim Harris is the Director of the Interdisciplinary Behavioral Health Center at Marshall University, an Assistant Professor in the Department of Social Work, and founder of Opportunities Consulting Services. With a background that spans behavioral health, education, and early intervention, Dr. Harris has spent his career helping organizations and individuals better understand human behavior and create meaningful change.

A TEDx speaker whose presentation was recognized as an Editor’s Choice talk, Dr. Harris has worked with organizations including the Fred Rogers Company, the U.S. Department of Education, and the U.S. Department of Justice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hey everyone, and welcome to Voices of Hope. I'm Ross Wilsie. And I'm Mike Wade. Each episode, we sit down to talk about what it means to live well, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and beyond.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We'll look at how wellness shapes us as individuals, families, communities, and even the wider world around us.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Through real stories and honest conversations, we'll explore what hope looks like and how it grows, right here in the New River Valley. Thanks for joining us. This is Voices of Hope. Dr. Jim Harris is the director of the Interdisciplinary Behavioral Health Center at Marshall University, an assistant professor in the Department of Social Work, and founder of Opportunities Consulting Services. With a background that spans behavioral health, education, and early intervention, Jim has spent his career helping organizations and individuals better understand human behavior and create meaningful change. As HEDEX speaker, whose presentation was recognized as an editor's choice talk, Jim has worked with organizations including the Fred Rogers Company, the U.S. Department of Education, and the U.S. Department of Justice.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

So, Jim, welcome to the Voices of Hope Podcast. So glad to have you with us today. I appreciate you guys having me. Looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, so uh we kicked off the episode by giving our listeners a brief introduction to you. But could you tell us a little bit about your background, where you're from, education, family, that kind of thing? Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Um, I actually grew up in Proctorville, Ohio, which is uh just across the river from Huntington, West Virginia, which a lot of people might be familiar with Marshall University, the we are a Marshall movie and such. So I grew up in the southern part of Ohio, uh the most southern tip uh in that area. I'm the um youngest of three. I have I had an older brother and I have an older sister. I have uh my mom was a public school teacher for 30 plus years at a high school in a local high school, and my dad was a uh steel worker for a period of time, uh, and then after we was laid off, went into teaching uh gymnastics, which is a really weird combination. It's a long story, it's better told in a bar kind of thing. So it's it's that's that's one of those. But yeah, and then um I yeah, went went to went to school in this local area, just outside, then went to Moorhead State for my bachelor's degree. Actually, uh went originally, I was, you know, obviously to get an education, but also to play football, and uh went there to play football and blew my knee out when I was a junior and had a little bit of an identity crisis and figured out, hey, I I better figure out what I am besides a football player. And one of those events that was a good experience for me uh looking back because it really focused me on my education and what I want to do. Uh so finished up at Moorhead State with a bachelor's in social work, went to the University of Kentucky, earned a bachelor's in social or master's in social work there. Um, did some work in the field. I'll talk, you know, the field stuff later, but um, and then got an ed specialist degree from Marshall University and later got my doctorate from Marshall University in uh with an emphasis in curriculum and instruction. Um, so those are kind of my that's kind of how I arrived, at least personally and uh uh educationally at where I am today. I've been a lucky guy with the with the good things that have happened to me and and been a lucky guy on some of the not so good things and and the experiences or opportunities they've offered me.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Well, I gotta ask, what was the uh what was the position for football that you played? I was a defensive end.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, I played defensive end. Okay, yeah. I was uh a little bit undersized, I guess we might say, but uh, you know, I've it more head states what you used to call one double A, now they call it FCS. So uh but I loved it. Uh football taught me a lot about hard work and taught me a lot about perseverance. And um, but you know, it's one of those things I I told my my son asked me the other day, would you if you could go back and change it and you wouldn't have blown out your knee, would you change it? And I was like, no, weirdly, uh, because I don't I I I kind of like where I ended up and and without that adversity and without that change and quote unquote identity crisis, I would have never uh I don't know if I would have ended up where I am today.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

So, Jim, let's dive into some of that professional journey, the field, the field stuff you mentioned. Um, so if you wouldn't mind just walking us through how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Sure, sure. Um, I first kind of I tell I I tell young people, I talk to them all the time, like, like you gotta get some other jobs early. Like I've I worked at Subway as a kid, I worked at Cracker Barrel, I worked as a a brick and block laborer for a construction company. Those don't go on your resume now, but I think they're formative. So I always, you know, tell kids you gotta go do some of those work. But my first work in the field was I worked as a what was called a child care worker in a group home, um, finishing up my bachelor's and in my master's. And it was a group home for kids that had involvement with the Department of Health and Human Services, usually some sort of status offense or abuse neglect. Um, so that kind of got me in the field in a very direct way. Um, when I finished my bachelor's, I went to work uh at an agency called River Valley Child Development and did some work in birth to three early intervention, like right out of the gate, which is really important because it kind of gave me that early childhood background, which I think anybody working in the helping professions needs to understand developmental trajectory and developmental pathways. Did some parent education, weirdly, at 21 years old, I was a parent educator, but uh you know, I learned that I learned how to be humble and how to listen. Also met one of my mentors that uh in that experience, which is named Sawn Floyd, and he's kind of the one that got me into public speaking and training and just really kind of helped mold my initial thoughts around behavior and and behavior support and what that looks like and how to better support people. Uh after that, I went into work in residential treatment for adolescent males, which was a residential treatment facility. Had about 60 uh young young men there between the ages of 12 and 18, all had some sort of criminal health or mental health uh involvement and criminal justice involvement. Um, so I started out as a partial hospitalization therapist there, that later became an individual therapist and then later became a clinical director there. Um, you know, I was I was fortunate uh to become a clinical director at a young age, but it really pushed me because I knew I was in over my head. One of the important things, if you're in over your head, is to realize you are in over your head. So I learned a lot and I grew a lot there. Uh, that was important for me. Uh that was a good experience. And then also then I went in to do uh community mental health. Um, I was a clinical director for a community mental health agency and met another one of my mentors in that. I kind of knew him personally beforehand, but worked professionally with him. His name is Brett Looney. He worked at the juvenile detention facility in the area. And we helped and and at the agency I worked at, we did some of the early school-based mental health programs in the area, which was a really cool thing to be a part of starting up. Um went from community mental health into I taught a little bit at West Virginia University in their Masters of Social Work program. Um, and then transitioned into um Oasis Behavioral Health, which was a private practice. Um huge experience for me uh to learn more about the business side of mental health. And also um, I I two of my always list my four big mentors that uh the two mentors I met there were Sean Cade, who was a clinician there, and Bill Webb, who was the owner of the practice that taught me that you can have a heart and know how to run a business at the same time that you don't have to pick. Um so he was and he also, you know, motivational interviewing is a foundational uh theory and stage of change foundational for me. Um so I worked at Oasis uh as well. And um I worked for my own, I had my own company. I started an 08 opportunity consulting and uh did that on my own for a number of years, but my boys were young and I was on the road a lot, and uh so I wanted to get off the road. And I so I went to I went to work at Marshall University in the Autism Training Center there, the West Virginia Autism Training Center. I always kept my business going at the same time, doing a lot of speaking, consulting, um things like that, which I continue to do now. I went to the ATC first as the positive behavior support state coordinator for schools, so helping schools install better behavior support systems, and then later became this the um associate director there. Um and then now I've won't for I was there for like 10 years, and now I'm at the um West or Marshall University's Department of Social Work as an assistant professor and the director of the behavioral health center. So a lot of stops along the way. Uh got the gray my beard to prove it. Um it's hard for me to imagine that I'm in the phase of my career that I'm in because I still feel like I'm I'm young and just getting started.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

So Right, right. Well, it's great that you can say that.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, I tell you, it's it's strange. It is strange when I'm especially when I'm I was doing a lecture the other day for my the I teaching them the master's program and I I was teaching for one of our classes, and I said something about getting my uh my master's in 01, and one of my students go, I want to I that's the year I was born. And I was like, Yeah, okay. Probably something you could have kept yourself, but yeah, yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

So um a few weeks ago, I'm going down a rabbit hole looking at different videos of um keynote speakers, and I come across this video, this TED Talk presentation on YouTube, and I found you. And the subject of the talk that you gave in that video was something that I think uh resonates with a lot of our listeners. What's wrong with kids these days? And not to steal the thunder of that presentation, because I really do think everybody should watch that. Um, but let's talk about it. What's the essence of the message that you're trying to get across there?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Well, I think the it though obviously the the the title's a little bit provocative to try to draw people in, you know. Um, but it really is, I I feel strongly that the questions you ask kind of point you toward um better answers. And I think when people's mindset is what's wrong with kids these days, um, I think it kind of leads them down a path that I don't know is the best and as far as supporting young people. So what I kind of pose in that is maybe there's a better question, which is what do kids need these days? And I think that mindset for me creates better, you know, I just want to talk about like nose to nose versus hip to hip, because nose to nose, it's like it's us versus kids, which I've found not to be very productive, or uh hip to hip, which is about uh about shared perspective. I always wanna give a caveat with that though. What I'm not saying is that people should be friends with kids necessarily, right? Because kids, you know, they need to be leaders, mentors, thought partners, like with a shared perspective, helping young people get ready for a world that quite frankly none of us are 100% sure what it's gonna look like, but kind of building some of those skills um in those. So I think it's about asking uh that better question about what a kids need these days. Um, so that's what I really hope people can take from the talk is um, you know, and I I was working on it, we did a discussion guide for it and like use that as like an opportunity to as adults to like get below the veneer of like these kids are just TikTok addicted and lazy and all that. It's like let's really dig into that a little further and what you'll find those kids are growing up in a complicated society and they need really thoughtful, supportive people, um, asking better questions and and helping prepare them for the world.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, yeah. And to me, it's not it shouldn't be at least about assigning blame for for all the things that are happening, you know, tick tock, you know, phone addictions and things like that. It shouldn't be about who's at fault here, but really how can we how can we address that in an effective way?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Um like now what yeah, right now what exactly yeah, yeah, right, yeah. I think the thing that I notice when I talk to people about kids or give lectures about kids is um they tend to have like a voice of contempt sometimes. And like contempt, you know, John Gottman, who I believe is one of the best relationship researchers in the world, um, you know, he always showed or talked about how contempt is the number one predictor of the divorce, a divorce, because it's about talking down to the other person, it's more than criticism, it's it's talking down to the other person. And um, if that's the number one predictor of divorce, and it contempt has a tone, like we know that tone, like we've heard what the difference between like you know, giving someone feedback and putting someone down while you're pointing something out. Um, I I just think that's one of those things that if people are approaching young people with contempt, I can't imagine that creates an environment where young people want to collaborate or want to um have a relationship. Um, so I think that I'm really trying to get people out of that contemptuous mindset and more into that curious mindset.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah, that's great. Um, can you speak to some of the more common challenges that children and teens are faced today or faced with? Uh, and do you feel that they're worse or more harmful than maybe the what the three of us in this interview had to navigate when we were young?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yeah, I it's one of those things where I feel pretty, you know, people, I'm entitled, I guess, my opinions, but not my own facts. But I I I definitely think that it's harder now. And the way that I kind of have have kind of challenged people to think about that, and it tends to to bring the point home is if you have a teenager right now, which I have two, I have Jake and Cody. I have an 18-year-old and I have a 15-year-old. Uh, one's a Jake's a freshman at Ohio University and uh majoring in mechanical engineering and ROTC Air Force, and Cody is a sophomore uh who is just an awesome kid and he's doing robotics and football and all this stuff. So that's great. I got I got some really, really, really cool kids. Um, but you know, some of the things when I look at what things we can do to support kids is I I I wouldn't trade, but I it starts with I wouldn't trade places with them.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Like if you look at your teenagers, like would you trade places with a teenager now? And and if we really, you know, if we wouldn't trade places with them, I think that says something about that we believe they had it harder than we had it, at least socially. I think it's and I think that's a very fair statement. I think the data would actually support such a statement. Um so I I think the first thing starts with us having an appreciation for the challenge of being a young person today. Um, what those challenges are, I would say, you know, obviously the big one we talk a lot about is technology. Um, I think the the problem with technology is I think people almost give it kind of like the scary monster mentality, as opposed to kind of pulling it apart and like looking at what exactly does technology do to impact the development of young people. Um, I think the big thing, Jonathan Heid's book, The Anxious Generation, I think is probably one of the most important books out right now that helps us dig into that. Um also Anna Limke's book, uh Dopamine Nation is another one uh that I think the combination of those two kind of shows how we're talking neurology, biology, we're not talking will and just just a bunch of will stuff. Um uh so I think the big thing is technology, first of all, the it's the what we call experiential deprivation, which it it just kind of gets in the way of of kids having essential experiences. You know, while while you're on your phone, regardless of what you're doing on your phone in your room, you're not interacting, you're not playing, while while a four-year-old's on an iPad for three hours a day, they're not climbing, jumping, playing in dirt, socializing, making eye contact, learning about social communication, things like that. So the first thing in understanding technology is understanding that it's experiential deprivation is a key to understand what it's doing. And the second layer is what do the actual, what is the actual media that they're interacting with doing to them psychologically? Um things like image-based social media, Snapchat, Instagram, you know, uh pornography, how it's affecting uh the the dopamine systems of kids, especially adolescent males. Um so those are things too, I think that's but and also too thinking about experiential deprivation, this generation experienced COVID and and not to go too far down that road, but they missed out on experiences. And when you mess out on experiences, um, it creates a delay, a developmental delay, not in the sense of like a neurological, you know, uh disorder, but a delay in experiences or absence of experiences creates a delay in development. So I think COVID does that, uh, did that, technology's doing that, and also kids that have high stress and trauma, we know that also impacts them as well. So those are kind of the big, you know, the big four that I that I talk about that we see that are affecting kids, um, that have affected how kids are developing and growing.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, I this is sort of an aside, but uh I just finished reading a book about the shuttle program and just you know got my my head spaced to thinking about, man, I remember when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, and then later I wanted to be a fighter pilot and never never did any of that, but but I had those dreams and I'm like, man, I just don't know if my if my kids have that sense of wonder. Uh they do about some things, but but just have that kind of room to marinate on some of those dreams uh because of some of the distractions that that are in their life.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

So and even like the idea of like a kid wanting to be an influencer, I I you know, there's nothing I'm not I'm not trying to say that we, you know, should smash dreams one by one after another. But what I do think is important is looking at careers like influencer is different because it's more about notoriety as opposed to value. So looking at some of the things that draw kids in now um that they view as socially desirable, um, some of those things don't have much substance to them. Um, or they don't have, they're not about value, they're not about adventure or exploration, like an astronaut or a fighter pilot or even a counselor or a therapist. You know, like so I think really I think having young people um seeing value in in uh contribution, seeing value in challenge, and you know, monetary things are are important, don't get me wrong, but you know, we we know uh that there's lots of really rich, sad people um that chase money or whatever it might be, or uh, you know, so I I think there's there's a real conversation to have with young people there. I'm I'm having all the time with my 15-year-old right now. You know, we're talking all the time. He's like, this one makes a lot, buddy. Do something that you love. Do something that you love, you know, do something that you like. I tell I listen to podcasts, I watch videos, I read because I am just absolutely obsessed with what I do. I love it. I will do it for free. Yeah, um there's just so many, so many opportunities or so many things where kids just need more conversations about exploring things. Um just something to think about.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Yeah. Well, you mentioned uh approaching young people with a different uh tone and not being as uh quick to point the finger, if you will. Um but beyond that, how do we carrying adults and grown-ups of the world make things better for our young people?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah, I I tell you the big the thing that keeps me focused, which allows for variance and different temperaments and things, is and I talk about this I think in the TED talk, is the acceptance and growth continuum. I think that's important because acceptance is about understanding unique uh qualities and differences that kids have, like, you know, their age, their life experiences, neurodevelopmental issues they might have, things like that. And then so that's like acceptance, which is like better understanding a kid's life and experiences. And on the other side of the continuum is like growth, which is about pushing kids to be the best version of themselves. So I think as as parents, helping professionals, teachers, whoever it may be, is kind of keeping in mind the need for us to better understand kids and then also have good strategies and skills to help kids develop and improve. Because too much of one or the other is actually a problem. If all you do is accept, accept, accept, which is like you can't help it, you have this diagnosis, no one should challenge you. You actually weaken kids. You you you make them less than what they could be. And then if but if all you do is push, push, push without any sense of their background, their differences, and so on and so forth, you can break the kid. Um, so I think there's this um thing that we got to keep in mind is the balancing. And and you know, I've got two boys, you know, Jake and Cody, and I even have to parent them differently based on their temperament, based on their interest areas, based on their ability to deal with discomfort, um, and things like that. And clinically, I find that to be the case. And I do a lot of stuff in schools where I do consultation for schools for kids with challenging behavior, and that's only something we're trying to figure out is where's the acceptance elements here and where are the growth elements here that we got to take into consideration. So that's probably my my big picture side of it. Um the other thing I tell people, especially with teenagers, and this goes uh Angel Duckworth's book, Grit is really a good book, but um is help kids find their people or find their thing. You know, so you know, find your people, you know, help them get a support network or find their thing, which is things that they want to work hard at. I think um it's one of the things that now one thing I think is important to mention, some kids are gonna struggle more with finding their people because maybe they have some social differences, maybe they have autism, maybe they have so they might need a little extra support there. Um, and some kids might struggle to find their thing, which is the importance of exploration, exposing kids to lots of stuff, especially in early early elementary and middle school, which is why I get I tell people to be very cautious with early specialization. I see a lot with sports, but also see it academically too. A kid shows a little bit of promise in an area and suddenly parents like fixate zero in.

unknown 21:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

So I and I think what that does is, and and Duckworth's research talks about this, is the early stages of the development of grid is exploration. And early specialization cuts that short. Um, and it can build kids to have a little bit more, a little bit of a paper personality, and they don't have their they haven't explored a lot of stuff, and then they burn out and they don't know who they are. Um, so I think helping, you know, if if helping kids find their people or find their thing early is important, and if they can't, that adults need to step in and support those kids. Because some kids just late bloomers, it may be college for they figure some of that stuff out. Yeah. So they may just have to survive high school. Like I've worked with kids that just need to survive high school. That's it's it's gonna be it's not gonna be their thing. It's going to be how can we get them out of there with as few bumps and bruises as possible? Um, and then they can go to college or go to their trade or whatever it might be. So that's some things I think about. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Thanks, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

So you've mentioned a lot of things uh already in this interview that point to, you know, you you have really uh enjoyed some success and achievement. Uh it sounds like you've you're you're happy with what you're doing. Um and that to me, that's success. So were there aspects of your own upbringing that you believe helped set you up for that?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah, I yeah, absolutely. Um, I think uh my mom, uh, who you know was like I said, was a school teacher for 30 some years, but also has a master's degree in counseling, um, has taken on multiple entrepreneurial uh experiences. She's just uh just an impressive human being. And so being being around an impressive human being, uh, especially early in your life, is huge. Um, not only did I get to see or hear and have conversations where she challenged me to think more deeply and more compassionately for people, she modeled that um in how she was a teacher and how she took care of as she was a coach as well. Um, I remember I was I was kind of I don't know, she she doesn't remember this, I don't think, but we were riding in the car, and I just remember I was like, I was young. It's when Bo Jackson was big. You guys remember when Bo Jackson was huge. Yeah, and and I told mom, I'm like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna play for the Oakland Raiders or the Los Angeles Raiders at that time. I'm gonna play for the LA Raiders, I'm gonna be a lawyer, and I'm gonna drive a stinger Corvette. And she was like, That sounds great. She goes, That sounds great. You know, just start asking me questions. It was it was curious with me and just developed a sense in me that was really important, you know, that like, hey, you can do these things. And she taught me how to be a better thinker. My dad um was someone who was just he he I always tell this to parents all the time, don't focus on being perfect, stay present, you know. Uh, because that's the big my dad was present. My dad um wasn't perfect, nor am I. And you know, he he but my tell you what my dad was is he was there. Uh, even after my parents got divorced, um, he was he was a continued presence in my life. Um, always had my back and always was interested in what I was doing, even if he didn't understand it. My dad graduated from high school, went right into the steel mill. So there was things I was doing that he didn't understand because it was part of just my academic life. So having somebody in your corner like that was important for me. And of course, you know, tough things happened. I had a lot of uh learning problems as a little kid. I had a lot of reading problems. I still have reading issues today. Um those pushed me to develop other skills that now I make a living off of, whereas for my social communication skills, communication skills, things like that. Uh, the ability to to verbal reasoning, you know, uh because I couldn't read very well. So I was kind of drowning academically in that way. Um, and then, you know, I mentioned the the injury that I had was pretty formative for me. So those were some of those things that um, you know, I was very lucky. I had, you know, a great sister who's brilliant. Um, and she always challenged me to think more broadly about people. She was somebody who was, I don't know, I wouldn't say anti-establishment, but she was into like alternative things. And that always gave me a real a real understanding of you know, there's all kinds of ways that people can exist. And and my brother was a real, real hard worker and uh was a constant support for me. Um, you know, had had a did a lot of fatherly kind of things for me about finances and things like that. So I'm a lucky dude when it came to those sounds like experiences. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Well, we are uh all three very fortunate to be fathers, and um I know we uh we learn things about ourselves along the way, but what's one thing that being a father has taught you about yourself, Jim?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Humility would be the answer, I I think. Um, you know, I've studied this stuff my whole life. I mean, like I said, I I just I've been enthralled by psychology, human behavior, um, my whole life. I've just really been interested in it. And you think you have some things figured out, and then a kid shows up, and man, do your flaws start to come to the top, right? Uh so I it's humility. I mean, I'm super, super lucky that my boys like I'm I have like pinch myself. I'm lucky that uh of of Jake and Cody. And they're both and you they're both awesome in their own way, which also makes me a better father because they pull different parts of me out to make you know, but at the same time, I tell you, you guys know this as dads, it's like if you have any insecurities or any weaknesses or things like that, you you really think about them because yeah, it, you know, you want to be the best version of yourself for your kids and and you fall short um sometimes. And you know, I'd like to think I win more than I lose, but I definitely know there's you know, it it gives me compassion for other parents. And um so humility's a big, big thing for me. Um, and I, you know, my wife, Trisha, she's a principal of our local elementary, and um, you know, she's our relationship and we balance each other out very, very nicely. And so um having her to kind of feel where my weaknesses are has been instrumental for me as a father to have a mother that that balances me out has given my boys a real shot. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah, as you were starting to answer that question, I was gonna say for me, it's probably uh that I didn't have as much patience as I thought I did, but then I realized that's kind of a humility thing. Because I would always talk about I'm such a patient guy, you know, and then I had kids.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

And so yeah, it's so different, like and even your patience with other people's kids versus your own kids, right? Is it's a different thing. Um it'll bring it out of you. I I tell you, it's uh the weird thing, and it's sounds like an old man kind of thing, is also it's it it it brings your mortality to front and center, especially as my kids have gotten older. Like Jake when he went away to college, like you have these milestones and you're like, I can't be old enough to have a kid in college. Or, you know, Trisha and I, Cody's a sophomore, and you know, once he graduates, it's just gonna be us, uh, you know, so I always say if you have an empty nest, you better like the other bird. So uh, you know, we're very well said, yeah, very well said.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, yeah. So, Jeb, we I I know it's probably not that easy to um to take care of our kids or to be a parent uh if we're not taking care of ourselves. So, how do you maintain your own personal wellness?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Man, balancing act all the time. I mean, I have my times when I'm on a when I'm I'm doing a great job with it, and I have times when I'm struggling with I have to move. I lifting weights has always been something that's been a part of my uh that helps me stay balanced. So I lift uh about three, four days a week. Um, I do well when I'm moving. Um when I'm eating well, I'm at my best, and when I'm not, I'm not. Um so I, you know, I I find, you know, my if I take care of my body first, it sets my mind up for a good spot. So I I do really well with with routine. So that's a big thing for me. Like when I have good routine, when I have good physical routine, good nutritional routine, that's kind of the foundation for good psychological functioning. Um I I have to be challenged. I'm somebody that that's something that helps me. I have to be curious about what I'm doing. I have to be challenged in my work. Um, and also, like just this past weekend, Jake was in town uh from college, and uh it's good for me, you know, and and my family holds me to this more than I'm the one. I'm you know, I'm just being honest, they're the ones that push me, like, hey, we'll watch the movie tonight. Like, come on, let's go, or we're gonna play games tonight. Let's go. Because I can occupy myself with things that I think are important at the time, but I'm just really thankful that I've got a wife and and boys that that really of value to us, you know, and and and and it recharges my batteries to uh to to spend time with my family as well. Um and also my you know go see my mom and you know, spending time with her is important. My dad since passed, but spending time with my mom is is something that um is really powerful for me too. I've I've noticed even especially, you know, after my dad passed away and things like that, that's something that I'm like, man, you go soak that stuff in, you know. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Well, um, you are a guest on the Voices of Hope podcast. So I mean we couldn't let you go without asking you what the word hope means to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah. You know, that's I think if I'd really kind of this is one of my big things psychologically, it's it's the belief that our behavior matters. Um I think um I've heard that. I heard that somewhere years ago, and I don't know exactly, but I think that the belief that your behavior matters at least gives us a sense of of um hope that there's things we can do to improve our outcomes. Um, you know, I think uh I always am looking for, you know, we can't change everything, and there's some things that happen, bad things happen to good people, you know, and and it's not their fault. But I always just I always try to find, and when I'm at my best, I'm doing a good job finding the areas where I'm controlling the controllables. I'm doing a good job of seeing where my behavior can improve things. And I think probably one of the most damaging places a person could be is in like a learned helplessness mindset, which is where you just don't believe your behavior matters anymore, and you're hopeless. Um, and so I think for me, hope is the belief that there's something I can do, something we can do that will improve things in some way.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Um yeah. I like it. It's a great answer. It's unique. I had not I've not heard anybody say that, so I like it. Keeps me sane sometimes. So before we let you go, um, any final words of wisdom you want to share with our listeners, Jim?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Well, you know, it's funny when I think of words of wisdom. Uh, you know, people usually have like great quotes and all that kind of stuff. Um, if you ever watch the Ted Lasso series, have you guys ever watched the Ted Lasso series?

SPEAKER_01 32:06

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah, it's fantastic. Uh and and it's like he does that whole the whole dark um scene where they he he's he's uses the Walt Whitman quote, which is uh be curious, not judgmental. Uh-huh. Um yeah. And what's funny about it is uh actually was that was actually a quote was gonna go in the TED Talk, but come to find out that Walt Whitman, they can't say for sure he said that. Um and anything that goes into TED Talks get like vetted like by every angle and all that. So I I had to be cut out. Um so it turns out that my favorite quote is not a Walt Whitman quote, and it's not really a Ted Lasso quote, but it's one of my favorites, which is be curious, not judgmental. And I find that when I'm at my best is when I'm in a curious mindset, when I'm curious about um, you know, what makes things work, how what makes people tick, what can I do to support them, what do kids need these days, those kinds of things. And when I'm at my worst is when I'm locked into when I'm judgmental, I'm locked into an idea, I'm locked into a concept, I'm locked into an opinion. So, you know, I that's what I'm trying to do more of right now is I'm trying to stay curious and I'm trying to when I do lectures and do presentations, I want people to understand that that that I'm coming from a place of curiosity, not a place of certainty. Um, and um, you know, I I just hope people can kind of be on a curiosity kind of uh journey with me. Um, and I think if we bring that to pretty much any situation, I think it's it has a more humanistic kind of approach. Um, you know, so that's if I had words of wisdom, I would steal them from whoever said that at some point, which clearly is not Paul Whitman or Ted Lasso or me. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Well, regardless of the source, they're wonderful words and uh more people should take heed to those.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's I mean, I tell you, I I appreciate, you know, like I said, I'm I'm just I can't believe I get to do what I get to do. I mean, not that I don't get tired like anybody else, but um, I really am grateful um that I've had the opportunity to work in the human help, the helping professions to help people in a variety of different ways and and to be challenged in the ways. And I'm looking forward to the things I'll do next. I, you know, um who knows what those I have some ideas, but you know, I'm I'm I'm excited still about things I un unwork undone yet.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Well, we are excited to learn what those might be and are uh sincerely grateful for all that you do and for your time today. And it's been a real pleasure talking to you, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Absolutely. Appreciate you guys having me.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Thanks for listening to Voices of Hope. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to rate and review the podcast and help us spread the word. Voices of Hope is a production of New River Valley Community Services. To learn more or listen to past episodes, visit nrvcs.org slash podcast. And remember, hope grows when we share it. So keep the conversation going, and we'll talk to you next time on Voices of Hope.