Beyond the C-Suite: Sourcing Board Talent for Unprecedented Risks [Leadership Elevated]

Boards today are operating in a rapidly shifting landscape where traditional expertise alone is no longer enough. In this conversation, Erin Essenmacher and Rochelle Campbell unpack what it means to build a “balanced board” that can effectively oversee strategy and risk in a dynamic environment. They challenge long-held assumptions about board composition and make the case for expanding the lens beyond titles to focus on lived experience, mindset, and the ability to contribute across complex issues.

Through real-world examples, they illustrate how organizations can identify candidates with unconventional backgrounds, ranging from technologists to cross-industry leaders, who bring fresh perspectives into the boardroom. The discussion also dives into how to evaluate candidates for curiosity, adaptability, and systems thinking, while maintaining the rigor required for effective governance. The result is a framework for constructing boards that are not only diverse in composition, but also more agile, thoughtful, and aligned with long-term strategy.

What You’ll Learn

• Why modern boards must look beyond the traditional C-suite to find directors who offer specialized expertise and diverse perspectives.
• How to identify and recruit leaders who understand emerging technologies as an integral part of the business landscape.
• Why the most effective board members balance deep functional expertise with a broad, holistic understanding of business strategy.
• Strategies for vetting candidates who possess the humility and curiosity required to transition from an operator to an oversight role.
• How companies can use "board buddies" and targeted coaching to accelerate the effectiveness of non-traditional board members.

To learn more & get resources:

• Podcast & episodes: www.publiccompanyseries.com
• Download the book: www.nyse.com/pcs

Subscribe now to hear insights from the most respected voices in corporate law and governance.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Doug Chia: Welcome to the Public Company Series podcast. I'm your host, Doug Chia. This podcast series is designed to give corporate directors, executives, and governance professionals the insights and tools that they need to build boards that are agile, resilient,

[00:00:34] Doug Chia: and prepared for the future. It's based on the book Board Structure and Composition, which is part of the Public Company Series published by the New York Stock Exchange and JP Morgan. Our guest today on this episode are Erin Essenmacher, a board member and senior advisor to Leadership Elevated, and Rochelle Campbell, who is the CEO of Leadership [00:01:00] Elevated.

[00:01:00] Doug Chia: Erin and Rochelle authored the chapter of the book entitled, Building a Balanced Board, Expanding the Reach and Pipeline for Talent. And so the underlying challenge that Erin and Rochelle address, is the need for boards to satisfy investors and other stakeholders who have dialed up their expectations for board oversight on an ever-growing list of business areas that present new risks and opportunities while maintaining a balanced approach to corporate governance.

[00:01:36] Doug Chia: And so this requires a lot of forethought when it comes to shaping the board's composition. In the book, Erin and Rochelle discussed some of the critical elements to a balanced approach to building an effective board, expanding the lens of who makes a good board member, determining which skills, backgrounds, experience, and perspectives are important [00:02:00] for a given industry business model, risk profile, stage of growth, and strategy.

[00:02:06] Doug Chia: And sourcing talent that fits that profile. Today we're gonna look at expanding the lens. Erin and Rochelle, welcome. In the book you say that there is a growing recognition that a board made up of mostly former CEOs does not provide adequate diversity of perspective, and you urge companies to look beyond the C-suite and focus on impact.

[00:02:35] Doug Chia: Why don't you tell us a little bit more about what that means? 

[00:02:38] Erin Essenmacher: Thanks, Doug. I'll, I'll start and then, um, pass it over to Rochelle to, to add some more color. Um, you know, my perspective is largely colored by being a board advisor and governance expert, and Rochelle is also a governance expert, but has spent more time, um, on the recruiting and the candidate side.

[00:02:55] Erin Essenmacher: So together we have a pretty, uh, holistic perspective as we think about some of these [00:03:00] issues, especially as we connect board composition to board effectiveness. Um, you mentioned. That stakeholder expectations are, are changing and that there're, you know, there's a lot more scrutiny on the board. And I think that's absolutely true.

[00:03:12] Erin Essenmacher: And I think, you know, the other piece of that is it's a reflection of the incredibly dynamic business environment we're in. We've been in, I would argue for at least a decade, if not longer. Um, and certainly has become even more, um, more so in the last year, year and a half, um, in terms of just the. The number of risks that we're seeing, unprecedented risks, um, certainly in my lifetime, that both are their own thing to look at and manage, but also how these risks converge together, whether we're talking about economic uncertainty, um, geopolitics, trade, regulatory issues, social demographic shifts, technology.

[00:03:50] Erin Essenmacher: I mean, each of them have their own risk and strategy profile, and ultimately that's the board's. Ultimate job, right? Is to oversee strategy, oversee risk, how can we [00:04:00] grow, what could hurt us? Um, and so as we think about how all of these things play together, it's just a very different and dynamic operating environment and our.

[00:04:09] Erin Essenmacher: Perspective, and we argue this in the book, is that the board composition and our attitudes towards board composition need to shift to sort of meet the moment. And it's, it's more than a moment. It's, it's a, as I said, a, you know, a trend that's been been building for a while and I, and we don't say slowing down anytime soon.

[00:04:26] Erin Essenmacher: So I always like to say, you know, if you take a step back. If you're not thinking differently about who should be sitting around the board table, then you're probably not thinking differently about other key questions, um, in terms of how the mindset needs to shift. So who's our competition? What business are we in?

[00:04:43] Erin Essenmacher: What are the trends happening that could impact our industry and either really hurt us if we're not paying attention to them and not harnessing them, or could really give us a competitive advantage. So I would argue that this bigger question around how we think about who makes a good board member. Is really part of a bigger conversation [00:05:00] around innovation and disruption and how we need to challenge old assumptions, mindsets, and built-in biases, um, in order to stay competitive.

[00:05:09] Erin Essenmacher: And that certainly is true for the board and its critical oversight function. So that really means. Thinking about, and as you said, kind of in your setup, of course this is gonna widely vary for every company, right? It's gonna depend on industry, on business model, on stage, and of lifecycle on where you're operating, on how you think about future consumers and stakeholders and how you wanna reach them.

[00:05:31] Erin Essenmacher: All kinds of things. So there's not a one size fits all, but I think that that general mindset shift of we need to be much more. Thoughtful, agile, I would argue, creative about how we think about who makes a good board member and, and ultimately it all needs to connect up to the company strategy. So your board composition should connect to your strategy, but I would argue if your strategy.

[00:05:54] Erin Essenmacher: Is fit for purpose in a dynamic and changing environment then, and you're connecting up your board composition, [00:06:00] then you will automatically start thinking about different profiles of directors, different skill sets, because that's who you're gonna need in order to help balance, um, and inform the conversation in the boardroom.

[00:06:11] Rochelle Campbell: I'll just jump in and add, add a little additional color to that. So a lot of the recruiting that I've done, and I'll, I'll just step back one second and say that Erin and I, when we're talking about these issues and questions with boards and executives and board members, a lot of what we want them to think through is best practice.

[00:06:26] Rochelle Campbell: And what is the best practice that gets you from the strategy that Erin was just talking about that reflects your industry and location and geography and all of the, the potential. Business risks that you're up against and then lay that against the company itself. So we, we talk about best practices, we talk about thinking broadly about these things.

[00:06:44] Rochelle Campbell: Um, when I've recruited for, for companies, we've done things like looked at HR leaders that could help an industry that was, um, a blue collar industry really transition and bring on new employees that affect all levels of [00:07:00] business because of the way technology was going to affect that business. Um, we've taken heavy industries that were transforming their entire industry on the inside of their manufacturing plants and help them look for.

[00:07:10] Rochelle Campbell: CHROs who had a tech background and deep experience in talent pool transformation, but could also understand finance and industry and, um, geography of the particular company. You know, we look at, um, I helped an engineering firm think about, uh, particular bringing on not just a CFO and CEO, but really look at where they were and where their growth opportunities were and find a candidate who had previous board nonprofit board experience who was a consultant and actually worked across industries.

[00:07:40] Rochelle Campbell: And so they could come into this engineering firm that was trying to figure out how to expand in different arenas and help them really think strategically about the business growth, not just where the business is. I mean, there are dozens more examples like that, but really in every instance it's about figuring out what the company is up against and how a board member [00:08:00] who can add and contribute to every committee or every conversation that a board is up against and be valuable while still adding a.

[00:08:08] Rochelle Campbell: Different perspective, a different, uh, subject matter expertise. 

[00:08:12] Doug Chia: Erin, you mentioned, uh, the changing landscape, especially with regard to technology, and in the chapter the two of you give one suggestion to expand the lens, which is considering candidates that you refer to as digital natives, and you define that as those with a deep understanding of emerging technologies

[00:08:35] Doug Chia: and their potential impact on business models. That sounds like a pretty narrow pool of executives out there, especially at the very senior level. And so how would you suggest that boards land these prospects that are in this category of digital natives when they're really in, [00:09:00] in increasing demand today? 

[00:09:02] Erin Essenmacher: I think first of all, when, when we talk about digital natives, I don't think of it so much as a skillset, as much as a mindset.

[00:09:08] Erin Essenmacher: You know, I remember hearing the late great Richard Edelman years ago at an NACD event, talk about the internet and he, you know, when it was first coming, you know, into the fore and how businesses were grappling with it, and they were thinking about it as a technology and he was saying at the time, this is not a technology, this is

[00:09:24] Erin Essenmacher: the water we're swimming in, this is the oxygen we breathe. And we all know that now, right? We all have a business mindset that takes the internet and connectivity and mobility into, into consideration. So I think it's, it's really first and foremost thinking of it through that lens. Um, in a lot of cases, that's gonna mean having maybe a little more age diversity on your board, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

[00:09:45] Erin Essenmacher: And I don't think it means you need to bring a 25-year-old onto your board. You know, I work with, and Rochelle works with all kinds of amazing executives. They do a lot of work around board readiness for executive women at the Athena Alliance, and these are women who are in their forties, who [00:10:00] are doing amazing work at big tech companies or with big technologies, um, who may not have a C-suite title, um, but are doing really, really impactful work.

[00:10:10] Erin Essenmacher: They have PNL, they're managing big teams, and they're figuring these challenges out every day because companies have to figure these challenges out. So that's the first thing I would say, and I think that gets to this bigger thesis about. You know, just shifting our mindset about how we start to think about some of these things and what the business needs.

[00:10:27] Erin Essenmacher: You know, I know we're gonna talk about this probably a little bit later in terms of finding the balance, but I do think, you know, the other piece of this is. And, and I give this advice all the time to prospective board members or people who are thinking about board services. You need to talk about your background in a way where the board could bring you on for your business acumen, where you're not just a one trick pony, you're able to really look at the business holistically.

[00:10:50] Erin Essenmacher: You have a point of view, but you're able, able to contribute. And one of the ways that I frame that is why would someone bring you on as a board member versus hiring you as a consultant to brief them on an issue? [00:11:00] So I do think that's an important consideration. And Rochelle touched on it and I know we'll talk more about it, is of course you're, you need to be pressure testing for

[00:11:07] Erin Essenmacher: the ability to think holistically about the business and the ability to show up with your business acumen, but informed through a point of view, um, around what you have led, through the things that you've done in your career that are gonna be a value add to that company's strategy. And I would argue if we have this conversation in five years, this question would look very different because I think we all, whether we kind of realize it or not, are having to become digital natives.

[00:11:33] Erin Essenmacher: And so that's, that's how I would think about that. 

[00:11:37] Rochelle Campbell: Yeah, I would, um, I'd go back to this idea that, that people talk about, um, generalists and there really is, as far as best practice for a board goes, no such thing as a generalist. You, when a board is organizing their governance documents, one of the things they put together.

[00:11:53] Rochelle Campbell: Is a skillset matrix. And that's true if you are a private company or a public company. And you know, looking at that still [00:12:00] skillset matrix and figuring out where your gaps are should help inform your recruiting process and you should create a profile around that. One of my favorite mentors of my life is Ken Daley, the former CEO of NACD.

[00:12:12] Rochelle Campbell: He said one time ingest on a bank board that he was supporting was one guy has this formula and one guy has this formula and one guy has this formula, and there we have diversity. And, you know, to some degree what he's looking at are these really difficult issues and we need to have a different understanding of, of sometimes similar topics.

[00:12:29] Rochelle Campbell: So, you know, I've worked with a board that, um, was a bank board and they had a lot of, financial and technologist people on there, and we ended up looking for a financial technologist, who specifically understood cryptocurrency, and that's a new way to figure out how this technology really matters and how it changes the boardroom conversation,

[00:12:49] Rochelle Campbell: because for this particular company, they were looking at how cryptocurrency would affect all aspects of the business. So back to Erin's comment about how. Why wouldn't they just hire a consultant? Well, [00:13:00] because they wanted somebody who could have deep conversation about what was happening. You know, how that changes people, how it changes process, how it changes structure, how it changes technology and be an expert across all of those conversations while still having HR and CIO and CTO and and CHRO and COO conversations.

[00:13:17] Rochelle Campbell: So it's really important that you think about your perspective that way. The other thing I'll say about digital natives is that we have for a long time been saying things like CTO, CIO, you know, CISO. The reality is it's still a fairly new role. It's only really been in corporates, uh, in the corporate world for somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ish years has been, I think the first reference was about 25 years ago, and that's not very long for people to have started a career, gotten a title and had some consistency like we see with the CFO, for example.

[00:13:51] Rochelle Campbell: So one of the things we also wanna step back from is the title of things like CIO, CTO, etcetera, CISO, and say things like [00:14:00] technologist, which helps us sort of shift from that singular perspective and into something more broadly, people who understand technology from a transformational perspective.

[00:14:09] Rochelle Campbell: Other examples of that might look like somebody who was a CFO, but 20, you know, 15, 20 years ago. Was steeped in the work of technology change and digital transformation or people who started in finance but shifted to technology or people who started in legal but shifted to technology and risk. These are all different ways to think about, um, how an expanding lens lens can be supportive.

[00:14:31] Erin Essenmacher: Lemme, I just wanna add one thing to that because I, it's such a great point, Rochelle, and I think this is, to me, this is really, uh, the heart and soul of a lot of what we talk about in the chapter, which is. You also really wanna be pressure testing beyond title for like what has this person led through?

[00:14:46] Erin Essenmacher: What have they experienced? So, to Rochelle's point, I know plenty of CHROs who I would consider incredibly digitally savvy because of the environments they've led in, you know, the things they've had to lead through in terms of transformation. I was just talking to a board member yesterday [00:15:00] whose background is in product, um, and she's worked at, you know, big tech companies.

[00:15:04] Erin Essenmacher: Um, and she's now on the board of a mental health company and she was saying, you know, it's mostly doctors and they were talking about. How they need to be thinking about ai and, and at first there was a lot of pushback because there was a sense of, you know, there are all these ethical and sort of diagnostic considerations around using ai.

[00:15:19] Erin Essenmacher: And her point was, listen, people are using ChatGPT and other technologies, whether we like it or not. And so we can either pretend that's not happening. Or we can figure out how to do it in a way that is ethical, that that does. And so the more that we sort of stick our head in the sand about this conversation, we're gonna ultimately end up left behind.

[00:15:37] Erin Essenmacher: And it really shifted the conversations that they were having on that board. She's not somebody who has. You know, a medical background. She brings that technology diversity, but she's never had a CIO CISO CTO title. Um, so I think this is really the crux of what Rochelle and I talk about, which is we need to just get a little bit more creative and expansive about what we're looking for and then how we're looking at [00:16:00] individual candidate backgrounds to really identify what they can bring to the table.

[00:16:05] Doug Chia: So one thing that. You talk about in the chapter and highlight as important is looking for those who bring a learner's mindset to their work. Why don't you explain a little bit more about what a learner's mindset is and how you're able to tease that out or discover that in in a candidate. 

[00:16:29] Erin Essenmacher: One of the things, again, when we're talking to prospective candidates that we really, um, reinforce when we're talking about that, the hardest thing for new board members, right?

[00:16:38] Erin Essenmacher: Which is to make the shift, the mindset shift from, from operator to oversight. And one of the things that I've really, you know, I've kind of always known this since I've been in governance, but it's really been reinforced. You know, they always say that, you know, there's nothing, nothing more reinforcing than teaching.

[00:16:52] Erin Essenmacher: Right. And, you know, one of the things that's really been reinforced for me is. You know, when you're on a board, you have incredible responsibility. [00:17:00] You have a lot of power, you have a lot of liability, and really at the end of the day, when you sort of think about it, the two most. Valuable, powerful tools you have in your toolbox in that oversight role because you're not running the business, are asking really good questions and building trusted relationships.

[00:17:17] Erin Essenmacher: And so, you know, one way to think about this is you're tapped to be on a board precisely because you bring a lot of expertise and a lot of experience and wisdom, and you've never applied that wisdom at this company. You know, you don't understand all of the ins and outs about how things operate at this company.

[00:17:35] Erin Essenmacher: I'm, I'm reminded of that. You know, maybe overused, but I still love it because it's truer than it's ever been. You know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. So how do you balance coming into the room with the confidence of the wisdom that you bring, that you are tapped for? Balanced with enough humility that you still have.

[00:17:53] Erin Essenmacher: You need to take some time to really understand how the company operates, how the company makes money, the power dynamics [00:18:00] in the company and in the room. All of these pieces, right? They all become, I think, outsized in terms of board effectiveness. Precisely because you're not, you don't have, it's, you know, it's, it's more, most of the time, more carrot than stick.

[00:18:12] Erin Essenmacher: Right. When you're a board member. And when I think about learner's mindset, to me it's another way of framing that kind of, that humility piece that, you know, I wanna come in centering. What I don't know and what I need to learn here as much as what I do know. So that's number one. Um, I think in terms of how you pressure test for it.

[00:18:31] Erin Essenmacher: Um, and I know Rochelle will have some good insights here too, from all of the work she's done working with boards and prepping candidates, but is asking some questions that, that pressure test for that. So things like how do you stay current? As a board member, what do you read? What do you listen to? You know, are they pulling from multiple sources?

[00:18:49] Erin Essenmacher: Is it just the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times, or are they, you know, listening to a variety or, or using a variety of sources? Are they someone who is a lifelong learner? Another great one I love, I got [00:19:00] actually from Rob Alford, who's a, a long time colleague and long longtime board member is he likes to ask, um, potential candidates.

[00:19:06] Erin Essenmacher: When was the last time you changed your mind on something? So I think there are ways that you can think about, you know, what kind of questions to tee up, to pressure test for that you can also, you know, it's also about how people show up and Rochelle and I, when we're talking to candidates, coaching candidates, this is something we talk a lot about.

[00:19:22] Erin Essenmacher: You know, by the time you get into a board interview. They've already decided you're qualified or you would never be in that conversation. You know what they're pressure testing for is, are you a good fit culturally? You know, can I sit around a table with you and, um, feel confident that you know we're peers and that you know that you're gonna add value to the board.

[00:19:41] Erin Essenmacher: Um, or I love the, the sort of infamous, like what I wanna share a. Hour long black car ride to the airport with you. But so, I mean, these are all parts of, when I talk about learner's mindset, you know, we like people who are both confident but not know it alls right, that don't come in ready to kind of tell us everything about what they've learned and how things should be done around [00:20:00] here.

[00:20:00] Erin Essenmacher: And that's, that's sort of a, usually a big red flag for a board. So when I talk about learner's mindset, um, that's a lot of what I'm talking about. 

[00:20:07] Rochelle Campbell: When I'm recruiting candidates, actually, one of the things that I ask a candidate is, how did you prepare for this call? I'm wondering how they're thinking about a role about an industry, about a company, et cetera, and that can be whether, you know.

[00:20:19] Rochelle Campbell: We all know board members who are not that effective. That can be for a sitting board member or for somebody who's never served on a board. It's a great question. I often wanna understand how they think about systems thinking or systems theory, and the idea being that can they transfer one piece of information to another?

[00:20:35] Rochelle Campbell: Can they look thoughtfully at a problem and say, oh, I've seen this problem in technology. I wonder how that applies to people, or, I wonder how that applies to. Supply chain or whatnot. I'm also wanting to know when something isn't being said, how they respond to, to that. You know, do they have the, um, composure and courage to be able to ask a difficult question about something not being said, or identify that thing in the room that's [00:21:00] not being said and bring it to bear for difficult conversations.

[00:21:04] Rochelle Campbell: You know, you could look at any. Major, uh, piece of litigation that's gone through the Delaware courts and see lots of opportunity where boards could have asked better questions or more questions. And so we're sort of wondering how they're gonna approach those, those situations. Um, the other thing is certifications.

[00:21:19] Rochelle Campbell: I know a lot of amazing board members who have sat on multiple boards who have, I mean, just incredible executive experience who still every six months or year. Two years, go out and get a new certification in AI in technology and cybersecurity and you know, whatever the new issue is in human capital, in new compensation structures to figure out what's happening in audit as it changes.

[00:21:42] Rochelle Campbell: But the idea there is they're demonstrating literally that they are lifelong learners. And so it's a great way to vet candidates. 

[00:21:49] Doug Chia: What you're saying obviously makes a ton of sense in terms of expanding the lens and something that, you know, I don't think people can really argue against, but are there any [00:22:00] cautions that you would give when you tell people to expand the lens?

[00:22:06] Rochelle Campbell: That's a great question. In terms of cautions, we need to be able to give first time board members an opportunity, of course. One of the things that you can do is look to see if they've already sat on a nonprofit board. It's a great way to understand that they get small group dynamics, that they get being ultimately responsible, that they understand what it looks like to be a fiduciary.

[00:22:26] Rochelle Campbell: Those are all really important things, so you need to be able to understand that you have to give people an opportunity that they need to have a chance. But you don't want a new board member to take up too much time or oxygen in the room. One of the most important things is that the in the elevation of conversation and questioning does not go down into the plumbing, but stays up high enough that you can accomplish the work.

[00:22:49] Rochelle Campbell: And I think sometimes new board members. Struggle a little bit with this idea that there is only a few hours really at the end of the day to have deep discussion around the [00:23:00] multitude of issues any company is facing. You know, the reporting, the, the actual work of the board. And so I really want people to be thoughtful about making sure that their candidates, regardless of whether they're a tenured board member or a brand new board member.

[00:23:14] Rochelle Campbell: That they can manage the elevation in the room and in the conversation. It's really important, back to what Erin said, and I'll just underscore this, the one trick pony is a big deal. We do not want a one trick pony. We don't want a singular issue board member. We need them to be able to demonstrate that they can actually think very clearly across technology.

[00:23:31] Rochelle Campbell: I, I think of it, this is the five functions, as you know, essentially leadership operations, so CEO, COO, CHRO, technologists of some kind and CFO, and we want people to have thoughtful experiences or thoughtful questions across the, that spectrum of leadership. And if they can't demonstrate that thinking, it's a little bit of a caution.

[00:23:56] Erin Essenmacher: Yeah, I would just add. Great, all great points. Um, you know, we talked [00:24:00] about the, the need for business acumen. Um, so another way we talk about this as being T-shaped, right? That, you know, your functional expertise is the depth, right? That's this part of the t and the, the horizontal part of the T is really that ability to look across the business.

[00:24:14] Erin Essenmacher: So, you know, that's critically important. Um, and there are. You know, some people who have functional expertise that are good at that and some people who aren't. Just like, not every CFO is gonna make a great board member for similar reasons, right? So you, we wanna be pressure testing for that. So questions like, um, you know, if you are a technologist or you haven't had people leadership, you know, asking questions about that.

[00:24:36] Erin Essenmacher: Asking, you know, what do you see as the biggest risks to this business and, and pressure testing for, are they thinking critically about business model and finances and competition and some of these other pieces? Um, so just like the, the learner's mindset, there are, you know, questions we can ask, things we can look for, and then I would say I would encourage non-gov committees and boards not to fall in the trap of feeling, which we can do sometimes with, with our, you know, when we're hiring [00:25:00] for functional roles as well of, of feeling like.

[00:25:03] Erin Essenmacher: We don't want a one trick pony, but we also don't want you looking for a unicorn because they don't exist. So it's like, you know, if you find somebody who indexes heavily, um, especially back to Rochelle's point about the skillsets matrix on things that you need, their, their thinking is where it looks like it needs to be, but maybe they need some development.

[00:25:20] Erin Essenmacher: I would encourage boards to take that risk and take that on and then make sure that person has a board buddy. Um, it's a great opportunity to review your OnBoarding materials and making sure you have a robust OnBoarding process. Again, when we're, you know, we're giving this advice on the candidate side, that you are responsible for your own or OnBoarding, and hopefully the company that your coming into has a great OnBoarding process.

[00:25:42] Erin Essenmacher: Ideally, they're gonna give you a board buddy or a mentor. But if they don't, you know, here's how you can fill those gaps and seek that out on your own. But I would encourage companies to be thinking proactively about that. It can just be a really great way to help get that person kind of up to speed again on some of the things that matter [00:26:00] most that they're not gonna know before they've walked in the door.

[00:26:02] Erin Essenmacher: The power dynamics in the room, the politics of the company, some of the nuances of things that have happened in the past that if I understand those, it's just gonna. Speed up my processing of all the board materials and give me a little more context. So I think it's a two-way street. You know, it's certainly something again, we encourage candidates to do, but I think all companies should really take this opportunity to take a look at their board OnBoarding process and, and figure out how it can be a little bit more supportive to getting candidates up to speed.

[00:26:29] Erin Essenmacher: Um, and this is true whether you're a first time director or it's your fourth role because again, we love to say, you know, if you've seen one board, you've seen one board. There are just so many nuances. Um, so I think it's a best practice anyway, but it's especially true when we're looking at some of these, um, maybe non-traditional skill sets, and I say non-traditional, you know, thinking 15 years ago.

[00:26:49] Rochelle Campbell: Know, I'll just add a little story to that. I was working with the board who was a great board. They found a great candidate. She had exactly the skill sets. They needed depths and breadth, and [00:27:00] she should have maybe gotten a little better OnBoarding and needed some coaching, and we brought in a faculty member to work with her.

[00:27:06] Rochelle Campbell: The board was willing to, because the board had invested in the recruitment process, they were willing to invest in the coaching process as well. We coached pre and post meetings for a couple of months, and by the end of it, she was an excellent board member. She was driving a ton of value in the organization.

[00:27:23] Rochelle Campbell: The board was happy that they, that they had invested in that process and she went on to do great things. And I just wanna remind people that it's okay to step back and say, you know, anytime you bring anyone on for anything, whether you're hiring an executive role or recruiting against a board profile.

[00:27:37] Rochelle Campbell: It's okay to give people a little coaching and to give them some support or that board buddy to help sort of navigate the difficult issues that can happen on boards, because all boards, back to Erin's point, lean back into their own personal dynamics and you wanna just make sure that you, that all your candidates can rise to the hour.

[00:27:53] Erin Essenmacher: This is where a really good recruiter can be a huge ally to you as a board member, is to help you pressure test for some of these more [00:28:00] softer skills or things that you know aren't gonna be evident on a resume. And so if you're working with someone who is really knowledgeable, knows this space well, has done this before, knows what to look for, they can be such an ally to you and maybe a little bit more of a, a comfort, right?

[00:28:16] Erin Essenmacher: Especially if you're bringing on somebody that, that has a different. Skillset or profile than you've had before, that you're kind of doing some of that. You have a partner in doing some of that vetting and pressure testing upfront. So that's another thing I would really encourage is companies to look at that.

[00:28:29] Erin Essenmacher: And there's obviously so many great firms out there and there's lots of great boutique firms that do this, but it's just a, I think a really valuable and sometimes underappreciated part of the process. 

[00:28:39] Rochelle Campbell: I, okay, one more story. I'm laughing because I had a, um, tech company that I worked with. You know, I found some candidates, they loved this candidate and she was a little bit of a different culture than the rest of the board.

[00:28:51] Rochelle Campbell: And one of the questions they had was, will she be a good board member inside of our room? And so we did this very deep background on her. Across her entire career. And what [00:29:00] came of it was that she was going to be an excellent board member for them. She wasn't gonna maybe laugh at all their jokes, but she was gonna be an excellent board member.

[00:29:06] Rochelle Campbell: And she OnBoarded and it was, again, a very successful situation. But the board knew what they were getting into because they had support and the candidate knew what they were getting into because they had supports. 

[00:29:16] Doug Chia: Yeah, I mean, this has all been, this is great in terms of adding a new board member. For companies thinking of, you know, getting from point A to point B, how do you suggest they look at shaping their board and mixing up the composition and searching for new board members in terms of how to get there?

[00:29:39] 

[00:29:39] Rochelle Campbell: One of the things that we don't think about is this idea of scope. Scope is really critical when you're looking, expanding your board and your board skill sets. So if a $500 million board wants, as an organization wants to grow, they can actually move into a 1 billion, a $2 billion company and find the [00:30:00] SVPs VPs who have that significant breadth and depth of experience and recruit against that.

[00:30:05] Rochelle Campbell: So, no matter where you are in the revenue or market cap continuum, whether you're public or private, you can go look for a talent that is where you want to be, not where you are. And then when you do that, you can then open your scope for different roles, not just the C-Suite, but you know, SVP, EPV, , etcetera.

[00:30:24] Doug Chia: We talked a little bit about how, you know, looking beyond the CEO, the C-suite, it's part of expanding the lens. But when we receive resumes and cvs, we see people's titles and we see a description of what they've done. But, you know, what else are you looking for, uh, in terms of when you see that and you're thinking, oh, okay, I wanna expand the lens.

[00:30:53] Doug Chia: Does, does this person fit into that? 

[00:30:56] Erin Essenmacher: When we're looking at just titles, we're missing so [00:31:00] much nuance that can be critically important to identifying really effective, interesting board talent. Right? Because I mean, again, working with so many executives across all kinds of companies, I see this all the time that, especially when I think about some of the bigger tech companies, for example, you know, you can have a title, let's say it's a managing director title, or even a senior director title, and have a lot of.

[00:31:23] Erin Essenmacher: Um, people and financial responsibility underneath that, and that may correspond to something that would be a much higher title, even a c-suite title at a different organization. So kind of along the lines of what Rochelle was saying about when you're looking for board talent, one of the things you can do is look for someone who has experience at a company that's maybe a little bit larger in revenue than the company you're operating in.

[00:31:45] Erin Essenmacher: Um, it's sort of part and parcel to that, which is looking one step or maybe two steps below the title and looking at things like. What kind of PNL responsibility this person's had, how big of a team they've led, um, if they've had supply chain [00:32:00] experience or global experience, if that's something that's important to you.

[00:32:02] Erin Essenmacher: You know, there's some great executives who have amazing global experience, um, and if you're looking at significantly expanding into new markets or, you know, that's a big part of your strategy, that can be really powerful asking what have they led through. So that may not always be evident from a title or even a bullet point of job description.

[00:32:20] Erin Essenmacher: Right? Have I been through major issues around, let's say, shareholder activism or cybersecurity, even if I'm not a CISO, you know, that's something I've had to deal with as a CHRO, for example. Um, we see this a lot with mergers and acquisitions, people with deep experience helping to successfully integrate acquisitions, which is we all know is incredibly difficult, right?

[00:32:40] Erin Essenmacher: So we ask our candidates to ask and answer that question, which is not just who am I and what have I done, but what have I impacted, what have I led through? And I think boards would be well served to be looking at those same questions when they're looking at potential candidates and not just stopping at title or some of the surface things that we might see on a LinkedIn profile or a resume.

[00:32:59] Erin Essenmacher: And [00:33:00] again, this is a place where a, a good recruiter can be an invaluable partner because they're already naturally looking for those things. They naturally have that mindset. And so again, I would really encourage boards wherever they can to find the right partner, um, in a recruiting firm to help with that process.

[00:33:17] Doug Chia: Great. You know, before we wrap up, why don't we have just a quick lightning round of some points that you'd like the listeners to take away and, you know, maybe it was, it's about expanding the lens, but it could be about other aspects of, of what you've written in this chapter. 

[00:33:35] Erin Essenmacher: One thing I would say is just really balancing that, really understanding how the environment is shifting with a little bit of.

[00:33:43] Erin Essenmacher: Not being too reactive, taking a step back and really thinking deeply like what does this mean for our industry, for our business model, for where we are trying to go? And then, then what does it mean to open the aperture to different skill sets and different perspectives? How do we think about challenging some of our own biases, which can [00:34:00] be hard because there're inherently sort of unseen, but like having those conversations, um, as a board about, you know, what do we need?

[00:34:08] Erin Essenmacher: What are we looking for? Just, it's just so critically important and I think sometimes we can get on autopilot, um, and kind of go back to the what we think are the tried and true. And we have so many examples, right, of boards and companies who have miscalculated sometimes to great detriment to the company and, and key stakeholders.

[00:34:27] Erin Essenmacher: And it's not because those people weren't incredibly smart. We know they were, it's because they most of the time got caught up in their own blind spots. And so when we talk about expanding the lens, this is not just, you know, board diversity as a feel good exercise or to check a box. It's a very introspective process about what do we really need?

[00:34:45] Erin Essenmacher: Do we really understand what we need, um, and how do we think differently about that to meet the moment? 

[00:34:51] Rochelle Campbell: I would just add this word, balanced board. The idea that your board should reflect your strategy, your culture, your, you know, where you're [00:35:00] headed, where you are, some to some degree is really critical.

[00:35:04] Rochelle Campbell: And when we load a board board with just CEOs and CFOs, there's no ability for us to look beyond those two functional roles. And we really want to, from a long-term perspective, be able to open the aperture for, for an organization to understand the way hiring has changed in the last, you know, the rollercoaster I'll call it for the last four years.

[00:35:25] Rochelle Campbell: Um, just for employee growth and mentorship has been significant. And if we don't have a board that can reflect and respond to those issues from a holistic, not singular perspective or narrow perspective, um, then we're really not fulfilling our fiduciary duties. 

[00:35:41] Doug Chia: I think that's a good place to wrap. And so Erin and Rochelle I'd like to thank you for joining us today, and that's Erin Essenmacher and Rochelle Campbell of Leadership Elevated.

[00:35:54] Doug Chia: Thanks again for sharing your insights on board structure and composition. So that [00:36:00] concludes this episode of The Public Company Series Podcast, and I encourage you to read Erin and Rochelle's chapter entitled building a Balanced Board, Expanding the Reach and Pipeline for Talent, which you can find in the book Board Structure and Composition part of the Public Company Series,

[00:36:21] Doug Chia: published by the New York Stock Exchange and JP Morgan. And you can read and download the entire book at nyse.com/pcs. And for additional resources and episodes, visit publiccompanyseries.com. And don't forget to subscribe to receive all new episodes of the Public Company Series podcast and rate us and leave a review.

[00:36:57] Doug Chia: So I'm Doug Chia, and we will [00:37:00] see you next time.