Back to School with the Practical Palette: Learning, Teaching, and Workshops

In this episode of the Practical Palette Podcast, Tara and Marc talk all about workshop. And a shameless plug--if you'd like to study with either Tara or Marc (or both!?) head to their websites: 
Tara Will: https://www.tarawill.com/events2025
Marc Anderson: https://mandersongallery.com/workshops/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Well, I'm just saying, like you paid money to be there.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think that's very controversial.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I think that's pretty uh why would you not share that?

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Hello, and welcome to the Practical Palette Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

I'm Tara.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

And I'm Mark. And we'll explore the world of fine art and representational painting through the lens of philosophy, art, history, and our own art making practices. Today, Tara and I will be talking about teaching styles, workshops, and building relationships with students. So, teaching. Do we want to get into it?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah. Yeah. So you haven't taught a lot online. You've just taught in person, right? Or do you teach a lot online?

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Um, I I taught, I started teaching online uh during the pandemic. And uh I would say I did probably three or four online workshops a year. Um it wasn't it wasn't a ton, but uh they they're relatively quick, so it was easier to schedule more of them, you know. Um and there's not a lot of you know overhead or um uh extra work involved, I would say. I mean initially there was like getting the whole setup going, but um how about you? I uh you teach online a reasonable amount. Uh you do it, you're doing your weekly demos too.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, shameless plug. Um I have been teaching online, I guess last year was the year where I actually started to try and do one every month. Um, before that, it was kind of like when I felt like doing it randomly. So um, and it is interesting to see the the interest that people have in specific topics, like the ones that I think would be popular sometimes aren't, or the ones that I think are like essential to learning are less popular, and I'm kind of like, well, that's a bummer because yeah, that's what you needed. Um and so um, yeah, so I've been doing them monthly, and then just at the beginning of this year, I might have started at the end of December. I started doing that 20 on Tuesday thing, which has been really fun. It's just like a quick 20-minute demo, actually. There's one right there. Get you over. That was our demo the other day. Um so it's a quick 20-minute demo, they're like nine by twelve, and then somebody in the class wins it at the end, and I ship it to them. So it's kind of you know, 20 bucks, 20 minutes, you know, a one in 20 chance of why I landed on 20, I don't know. Um so yeah, it's been fun. And the people seem to really be excited to like get the painting too, because it's fun to see the thing that was being made because I think it's different in person than online.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

So yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, do you go into much instruction in that 20 minutes, or is it uh just kind of fast and furious, and maybe you throw some uh some information out there as you're thinking about it, or is it uh more just demo?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Um, no, I it's funny because I was thinking about the things that we would talk about. And I think there are, I've been in places where people are like, I'm gonna demo for you. You need to be quiet. I'm gonna be quiet and you can just watch kind of thing. Which to me is like that's fine and great. Just don't advertise it as teaching because like that's not teaching. You're just watching someone paint, which is great, you know. Um, so no, on these we actually are talking. I I'm a pretty especially in pastel, there's kind of a um a progression that makes life easier. So um, and I know in oil working dark to light, and you know, depending, I think there's probably slightly more um room for variation in oil, whereas I feel like in pastel, it's like once you've integrated white, especially into these surfaces that can only have, you know, a couple layers before they're like toast, um, you can't undo that action. So, you know, really stressing, like lay all your darks in first. I promise you, it's boring, but it'll be much more pleasant in the end. Um so yeah, I think yeah, I think they've I think they've been good and I think people have liked them. And yeah. Nice, nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

On that, that last point, I think it's oils probably are way more forgiving in that respect. Uh, but both of us like very clean color. So I'm I'm very similar. Like the the procedure is pretty uh specific and necessary in the order of operations, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Right. And I think with the oil, you could like potentially wipe it off with a cloth, and your surface is kind of back to ground zero, hypothetically, you know.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

So I actually that's a a good segue. Well, what you said earlier before that, um, about teaching styles. Um could you describe your teaching style? Both for like workshops and well, I guess you kind of describe the the 20 um 20-minute demo, but um, what does a workshop look like with you?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I like to try and isolate ideas so that people aren't so overwhelmed by everything at the same time. So a workshop with me would be isolating a specific concept, and then I'll show you a demo on that concept where pretty much everything that I do in the painting is an attempt to support that specific thing. So if we're talking about color, you know, we're not necessarily going to talk about all the other pieces and parts. And so I think it isolates the concept for people so that they can really focus on that one thing. Like I'd rather them learn that one thing and then how to apply it later than necessarily walk away with, you know, a finished piece kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Um, so I typically isolate ideas and then I'll demo them, and then I make them look for that idea in their reference, and then they paint it, and I kind of walk around and like, you know, help as as I can or as needed. And um I've never gotten any bad criticism, you know. So I guess people like it. Um yeah, but my demo style is like a constant stream of consciousness where I'm almost like, someone please else talk to me because I feel weird just telling you what I'm doing all the time. Um so it's kind of it's you know, I think I talk a lot when I'm painting, which you know that's why I'm like, I can't paint and get into the flow state while I'm talking and telling you every step of what I'm doing, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

Yeah. So I think most students appreciate that. Uh I tend to talk less, and uh I almost need questions from the the students to to prompt me to say things. Um I mean, I at this point I'm I'm good enough saying the things that I think are important, but there's always, you know, uh what what color mixture is that and that sort of thing. Which I'll usually uh preempt by saying the exact mixture is not important. Uh it's and I actually this I'm curious what it's like with pastels because I'm talking about color mixtures where you're talking about specific pigments, um, which I feel like could be way more onerous.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Actually, I think you have it harder because you have to they ask like they want the formulation of like percentages in my head. This is what I'm thinking. Like they want to know like, well, that was like 50% ultramarine and like you know 10%, whatever, you know. Um, but with pastel, I'm kind of like, this is like a warmish mid-tone gray that has like a pinkish tint to it. Yeah, it's much more um forgiving because I can't, I can't possibly there's hundreds of colors in that box. And I actually had students when I had that, I have a box, a set of 30. And we were doing last year actually, every single demo that we did, we did with only those 30 colors. And so, and it's not like oil where I can mix it lighter or darker. It's like that's it. That's all we had. And so um, it got to the point where somebody was like, Well, can you tell us which number in the set you're picking up as you pick it up? I was like, Absolutely not. No. Like, if I if I narrow it down to 30 colors and I say, in your set, this one is the you know, mid-tone gray purple. There's only one mid-tone gray purple in the set. Like, I'm not gonna say this is number 472, uh violet. You know, I yeah, I think it gets a little crazy with that personally, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

Uh, the thing I've I've found, uh, I will indulge uh people with that a little bit when it comes to well, there are uh mixtures that I think are kind of important or that I use a lot, um, usually on my initial block-ins, but uh like ultramarine blue and transparent red oxide, I use that all the time because it's a warm and a cool, they're both very transparent. You can go very dark. Um, it's a it's a good utility mixture that uh you can get you can cover a lot of ground with it, let's say. So I'll talk about that. And also at some point during the workshops, I'll always talk about mixing greens, and that's where we really dig into all the attributes of color, uh, you know, value, hue, uh, temperature, chroma, all that. And because green is typically a hard color for people to mix, it seems like a good one to kind of demonstrate how you can manipulate a color. So there I will talk about not necessarily percentages, but I'll call out the specific pigments that I'm putting in. And uh and I think people appreciate that it does get a little convoluted at times just because it's it's complex, you know. Um Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

I was gonna ask, do you provide a definition for all of those terms prior to class?

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Yeah, yeah. So when I'm teaching in uh like out of my studio, um every time we'll always start with a PowerPoint presentation just to get some um some terms, like uh a language with which we'll talk about painting. So uh, you know, color value, edges, uh stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

And just to give a kind of a baseline for people who either are you know beginners um or even people who are more experienced, but maybe they use different terminology. They'll say saturation instead of chroma, you know, stuff like that. So just so we're all uh linguistically on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Right. I think so much of teaching is being able to articulate that it just that, you know, like figuring out how to come to some kind of common ground on the language, I think can be a challenge sometimes. Especially I feel like everybody has a different definition for some of those words. Like I am an it and girly through and through. And so to me, I'm like working on it in terms, and so some of those words are perhaps slightly different than than what um like okay, just break this down. So hue. When you're talking about hue, what's your definition of hue?

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Just where is it on the color wheel? So is it yellow, red, orange, you know, uh yellow green. So that's how I think of it. Um because then if if that's where I'm starting, like let's say I've got the most pure green, the greenest green that I can get. But then you can start to manipulate that in different directions. So then you can uh knock down the chroma, you can lighten it, lighten the value, darken the value. So that's that's how I I think about it, um, which is I assume different than how you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

It's a little different. Um I try and avoid the color wheel at all costs. I just think it's wrong a lot of times. Um and I think what I like about Iton too is that he does put a lot of emphasis on the actual um physiological differences between eyeballs. Do you know what I mean? Like he did an exercise, I think, where he said, like, everybody, I'm gonna give you all these reds. Like, pick up the iconic Coca-Cola red and bring it to me, kind of thing. And everybody brought a different color, right? Because like all of our eyes and cones and rods are all slightly different, they're not exactly operating the same. And so he does, I think, give a little more latitude toward the importance of that kind of subjective concept of color. Do you know what I mean? Where it's slightly different for everybody. Um, but when he talks about hue, he talks about it in terms of its closeness to primaries. So I guess it's not wildly different, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

I'm not so I I never use an actual color wheel in any of my classes. I I'm more thinking about um, and honestly, I don't even use the term hue that much, other than just we're describing a color on the color wheel. Is it yeah, yellow or blue or blah blah blah? Um because when you're out painting, first off, you're never gonna see like a pure color, uh, or very, very, very rarely. Um and so it's always gonna be manipulated in some direction, uh, either lighter, darker, uh gray or what have you.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Well, and it's funny because when we've done the like when I've done warm cool talking, have you ever had that random student that is the opposite of warm and cool?

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Uh how do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 14:32

So I have had students I multiple times now where the things that I describe as warm in their head it's the scale is flipped. Like they think that that's cool, and they think the things that I say are warm are cool, and the things that I say are cool are warm.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Like a like a violet being warm or or just uh like an Elizabeth and crimson would feel warm.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Probably that. Like, and it's strange to me because it's the exact opposite of the way my brain works, but I've run into multiple people who are like that. So and I think my basis is kind of like a lean toward yellow, just generally tends to be warmer, you know, just because like yellow warms most things. And so it's weird when it's it's it is interesting, I think, that I've come across multiple people who think of it completely opposite, and it's like, wow, that's so weird.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

I don't know if you've run into that or not, but well, I always when when talking about temperature, I always say like there are no warm colors, there are no cool comp colors, there's only warm and cool in context. So um so in a lizard and crimson, while it's it's red, so on the color wheel it's warmer, uh, but next to an orange will feel very cool, you know. Um so that's that's more how so if you've got like a warm half of the color wheel and a cool half, um, you know, red, yellow, uh, orange would be warmer, uh, blue, green, violet would be cooler, but then you can split those up. There's warm and cool variations of each one. And then again, in in context, um, it's all what what is that color next to? Is it warmer or cooler than the color that it's next to?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Right. I think a lot of times people forget that that's a comparative word, like adding the ER. Is it warm er? Is it cooler? Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Yeah, when it comes to color, I'm always talking about er and ish. So uh, like you were you were saying about how you describe colors, it's it's kind of a grayish, bluish, you know, whatever. Um because that's that's how I or certainly how I think about mixing color. Um it's just pushing it in a direction, it's grayish or it's warm-ish, warmer, you know. Um so rather than trying to get exact percentages, because one, that's gonna be super tedious. Uh and just it's not practical. And it's gonna change every time uh you have to mix any any color. You're never gonna mix the same color uh precisely, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

That's funny. I had a mentor once, and he was saying that when you teach, you learn to articulate these words. Obviously, that means something to you, but you have to kind of make it a common language with your students. And um he was saying people tend to come to workshops or take classes for one of three reasons. Um they're there for affirmation, they're there for um entertainment, or they're there for inter information. Sorry, I flipped that there. Um, so entertainment, affirmation, information are basically the three primary categories. And he said, you know, it's kind of interesting. You can walk up to a student and say, Well, you know, they've just done something on on their own surface, and you say, Well, what do you think about it? And if they say, Oh, I'm just here to have fun, then you know they're there for entertainment. And if they say, Oh, I don't know, like I don't think I did it well, can you can you tell me how to it? Did I do it okay? Like, am I like am I basically like, am I good enough? And then you know that they're there for affirmation. And then if you go to somebody's easel and they say, Well, I think I did the concept that you were talking about with complimentary colors, but I'm not sure that my color is warm or cool enough, or you know what I mean, like something kind of on the more technical range, you know they're there for information because they're collecting that, you know, information from you.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

And a lot of times people aren't there necessarily for information, which isn't a bad thing, but it is a thing I think that you have to consider as a teacher. Um, and so it's almost like doing the litmus tests around the room of, you know, who's here for what is what I want to know, you know. So you do kind of almost test them in a way, I do anyway. I'll walk around and I'll be like, so what do you think of what you did? You know, because I want to hear what they think about where they are, and then you can kind of almost like you're diagnosing and being doctor to provide them the you know appropriate uh medication or or you know the right way to resolve the issue that they're having. So it's kind of interesting, I think. What do you think about that idea?

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Yeah. I was uh I taught a one-day workshop uh at my alma mater, UW Stout, uh just like two, three years ago, something like that. And um my painting professor, uh Charlie Loom, had just been on sabbatical for a year or something, and he was just coming back. So he wanted to go on rounds with me talking to all the students. And one thing I think I had just forgotten or uh wasn't really fully aware of at the time, he was so incredible about asking the exact question that's gonna get them thinking. Um, like kind of like you're talking about what do you think about this? But it was like it was so pointed and and I I can't even think of an example, but like he knew exactly what to ask them to get them to really think about what they had just done and how you know whether they or not they were on the right track. Um, it was very and I always I think we know as teachers like to try and do that, but sure I I didn't I wasn't fully aware of how good he was at that. But of course he had been teaching for quite a while at that point, but uh he's very good. So, Charlie, if you're listening, well done. Um anyway, uh yeah, that's a uh that was kind of an aha moment I had, uh what you're talking about of why are people there. Uh, because I always assumed, like when I first started, that everyone would take a workshop in the way that I would take a workshop, which is to be a sponge and soak up as much information as you possibly can.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

And that's I think a a lot of people think that's what they're there for, but it's it never doesn't always bear out that way. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

There is like a uh you have to be willing to let go of preconceived notions and ideas that you have to be able to absorb that information, you know?

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Um and just being aware of that like makes teaching a lot easier. Uh because you're not constantly fighting to like hammer in all the information because some people just aren't aren't there for that, you know. Sure. And that's fine. It's perfectly fine. Um it does get me excited when I do have a very hungry uh class. You know.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

I know. It is it is more fun, I think, because you're actually you feel like you're doing something that is um you're diagnosing and and healing something that maybe was not accurate or you know, um there is that kind of satisfaction in sharing something with someone who has the capacity to absorb it in that moment, you know. I think it's very rewarding.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

How has how has your teaching style evolved over the years? Or actually, how when did you start teaching? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Gosh, I wish I remembered things. Um, my my memory is so poor, I swear. I'm like, um I couldn't even tell you. I feel like I've I guess maybe 2018, 2017-ish. Um so maybe 10 years. Um but I think what's evolved is um what's the right way? I I think that articulation piece that we talked about, like being able to actually say the right word at the right time and it be intentional, um, which is funny because sometimes I'll pause and be very careful about the word that I'm using. And people take that as an opportunity to um interject and try and guess the word that I want to use, which drives me crazy. I'm like, just because I'm thinking for a second and making sure that I'm using the term intentionally doesn't mean that I need you to fill that quiet space with like a guess. Because I feel like if you're guessing at the words that I'm trying to say, you're not listening to the words that I'm saying. Do you know what I mean? It's like you're anticipating my next thing and not being present in the thing that I'm telling you right now. So that is kind of a pet peeve of mine. So I'm like, um, I've learned to be very careful about the words that I'm saying and try and say them quickly enough out of my mouth that I don't um, you know, get interrupted. There was one time, and I I guess I was talking slow. I don't know. And this person just kept like trying to finish my sentence and and I was kind of like going along with them, and I was kind of no, that wasn't the word that I meant to say. Like, why did I disagree with you? You know what I mean? It was just very um kind of weird. So I think I've been a little bit more clear and assertive in the things that I'm meaning to say. Um but yeah, I just what about you? Do you have you ever had that experience?

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Um yeah, I don't know that it it bugs me that much. Um but yeah, I'll definitely I'm I'm I try to be very articulate and yeah, like you said, uh very purposeful with my word choices. Uh because language, like we said, can be confusing if we're not all on the same page. And and finding the right word, especially early on when you don't really have the muscle memory for it, um, can be very difficult because you're trying to articulate things while you're painting. Uh and you know, painting's hard enough on its own. Um, this is of course if you're doing the demo. Um it's a little easier when you're you know uh giving one-on-one instruction with the students while they're while they are painting. But um yeah, I think early on, like my my workshop format hasn't changed that much over the years, but uh I would say my my overall style has gotten more refined and yeah, it's the muscle memory. Like you you can you can anticipate what some of the questions might be, and you can cover them off by just stating uh this this is how we think about value, or you know, whatever color temperature, you can kind of head that one off early on, um, or at least preempt it by talking about it. Uh, and then there will probably still be questions about it later on, but uh you've at least primed them to be ready for that, and primed yourself to be ready for that. Um so yeah, that's that's kind of how I think about a lot of those things.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, it's um and I think it's a real joy. I I've met many friends that you know are still friends from these workshops that are, you know, they come as students, but they're actually peers. And I I appreciate that they're there and don't feel like in any way, you know, I'm like not their peer. Do you know what I mean? I think that's important. Because I think there is this kind of um pretentiousness a lot of times with um artists who have reached a certain level who think that they that that that divide is is greater than it actually is, in my opinion. And so um I think it's very important to be very careful. And I also don't like teachers who discourage their students. Um, I'm not saying that you need to tell them that they're doing a good job if they're not doing a good job, but at the same time, I've had many, you know, I've had people who are teachers who are afraid to give me information.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

They don't want to share, they they want to learn something and then kind of hoard that knowledge and not share it, even though you've paid them to share it with you. Um, and so I feel like I'm a very generous teacher as far as like there's nothing that I'm hiding from you, like there's nothing that I wouldn't do to help you get to where you want to be with any information that I might know that I can assist you in that in that path, in that journey. Um, but I don't feel like every person is like that. Um so if you're I don't know, I feel like if you're if you're being um compensated to teach someone something, I don't think you should withhold information. Um hot take. I always have a hot take on here. Well, I'm just saying, like you paid money to be there.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't think that's very controversial.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I think that's it's pretty uh why would you not share that? So for me, I'm just like, uh and honestly, like, okay, I'm gonna tell a story. What the heck? Um I took one pastel workshop from a local lady who um was at the community college and she taught us all the technical things like this is this kind of paper, this is this kind of pastel, this will do this, this will do that. So nothing about color, composition, you know, just a very technical, basic pastel class. And I was like, this is awesome. I want to do more of this. And then I paid all this money to take a workshop with a very prestigious pastelist, and I hated it so vehemently that by the time I was done, I said, I will never take another pastel workshop from another artist ever again.

SPEAKER_04 30:13

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

It was so bad. And I will sit and you demo for me all day long. Like, oh, I love to watch that. You know, I think that's wildly entertaining. I love to see how people approach things, but that class turned me off so hard that I have never taken a pastel class with anyone else ever. I just won't do it. Oils are different because I don't feel as though I know as much about them. So I am a little bit more open to it, but it was a bad experience in in many ways, but it was some of it was that information sharing piece. And it really turned me off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:57

I guess I'm I'm fortunate I've never had that bad uh well, I've never had a bad experience at a workshop, period. Um everyone's been very um uh sharing with the information. Uh sometimes you do have to know the right questions to ask, uh, or that's been my experience. Um and there's also a limit to how much you can process in a you know a three-day workshop. Um so I you know give yourself a little grace with that. But um some of the workshops were more technique heavy, some were more concept heavy. And it was interesting uh getting back to teaching styles, that's there was a divide there, uh, you know, from or everyone has their own objectives with their teaching style. Um and I I think all are good. I I do the most recent workshop I took was uh with David Dibble, um, and he was very concept heavy. And I actually I really enjoyed that. Uh even though it would have been fun to watch him paint more, he didn't demo a lot, but um but it was still an excellent workshop. So if anyone's interested, I would I would highly recommend it. But um other workshops I've taken were yeah again more technique heavy, which if you get too much into that, then you're just gonna start painting like that person, you know. Um and so when I when I teach, uh I don't I assume it's similar for you, I'm more thinking about broad concepts. I mean I can show you sp specific techniques um with oils that you might not be familiar with, but that's not gonna make a good painting. It's the overall concepts that will get you on the that will facilitate a good painting, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Right.

unknown 32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

How do you feel about all these people? Okay, another hot take. How do you feel about all these brick and grids lately? Like, are you a grid person?

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Like a grid drawing?

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

No.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Uh I just don't I feel like it's so crutchy.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

Yeah. That sounds terrible. Yeah. Uh I mean, okay, so uh paint however you want to paint, I'll say that. Sure. Um, but it definitely is going to hinder your ability to draw. Um, like you're not gonna get better at drawing if you're always using a grid. That said, there have been situations where if I've got a large painting with very complex drawing, uh so like let's say a cityscape where the drawing has to be dead on. Um I'll use a loose grid just to like block in some major landmarks to make sure they're in the right place. And then uh, but beyond a certain point, I just don't find it to be that useful. Um because if I'm too tight with a drawing too early on, then um the the painting itself will become too tight and rigid and um and my brushwork will suffer because of it. So so I shy away from that as as much as possible. But I I I mean I don't I couldn't tell you the last time I used a grid drawing.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

It's been it's been a while, but yeah, um I think there's something too that's really charming about the humanity piece of everyone's squirky little nature of things they tend to do. And so like why edit that out? I don't know. I feel like to me, that's the fun part.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah. And a lot of it too, for I think composing, um I took a workshop on compositions and there was a big emphasis on um these like diagonals and um and I feel like you should kind of organically be editing that when you're looking at your reference, like in your head, you know. Yeah, and so I think once again, if when I say it's crutchy, it's like why why use a tool that is not um supporting your ability to not use the tool, you know, like I think it's it to me those design elements may be very true and are true, but I think the trick is to learn to see them in reality, you know.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Yeah, um, yeah, in my opinion. But I think that's that's a really good point. So I think we've all seen those diagrams. You lay one of those, it's like a grid with all these crisscrossing lines, you lay that over the top of some uh Renaissance painting. You're like, what a genius composition. It's like, okay, sure. But in practice, like I I put that over the top of my painting, and that that works for the drawing, but that does not take into account color balance or any any other way that you can lead the viewer's eye around a composition. You know what I mean? Absolutely let's say you've got everything on your on your thirds in the drawing, but then you've got a really bright saturated color somewhere that throws the whole balance off. And so it's it's not really covering all of your tools, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 36:33

I think it also stifles intuition, you know. I think there with that muscle memory piece that you talked about earlier, there's this intuition that kind of comes with that. And I think when you're forcing yourself to follow a set of rules or boundaries that you've produced, you kind of lose that ability to let your intuitive nature or that like human flawed flawedness. Um which to me is like the thing that makes paintings interesting. Like if I wanted to see something exactly copied, just look at a photo of it. And I know we've heard this before. Um, but you're kind of eliminating or um sugarcoating or sterilizing any of these words would work fine. Um, the human piece, the human element of it is like, well, I feel like some of that should be intuitive, and um I don't know, maybe it's just because I'm a more impulsive type of artist person, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

No, I think that's right. Like you're gonna end up with more interesting work. This is why I love Plenair painting, because nature does not fit in a neat grid pattern or a the perfect composition. So you're gonna get weird things happening, and it's gonna come up with much more interesting compositions than you could ever come up with if you tried to manufacture it, you know, or if you tried to fit it in this perfect little uh Fibonacci spiral thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Um so yeah, uh don't lean too hard into any of that stuff, I would say. And that's what I try and tell my students, like be way more loosey-goosey with all of it, even the things that I'm saying, you know. Um, this is actually something uh maybe this is a short conversation, but uh I try not to be dogmatic about anything in in my workshops. Um, because I'm sure you've had students uh who say, Well, my um I took this other workshop with so-and-so and they did it this way. It's like, okay, then do it that way, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Right, then why are you here? Yeah, I think um I try and tell people that that for every rule, someone has broken it beautifully, or nature breaks it beautifully. And if you're so um tied and married to that concept, you're gonna miss all the cool stuff that's happening of these rules being broken. It's like, you know, the the things tend to happen, especially in landscape painting, in a specific way, but there's always ways that it's not happening that way. And so if you're forcing yourself to find the the you know, quote unquote correct way, it tends to happen, you're gonna miss out on some really cool, like there might be some super warm tree line in the background that this light's like crazy weird outside, and you're like, nope, the warm has to stay in the foreground. I can't put it in the background, you know what I mean? Like those kind of rules, and it's like, well, you're gonna miss out on really cool stuff because you're stuck in this little box of like, I have to think this way. Um so to me, I think it's important to be open to hearing, seeing really what's actually happening and not what you think should or will happen.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

But yeah, I like I like the rules. So, like when we get talking about color theory or the physics of light, I like the rules and I like talking about them, but only insofar as um they let you know what to do when you can't see it with your eyes. That makes sense. So if I can't tell that that tree line in the distance is warmer than the foreground, then I might cheat it cooler. But if it is definitely warmer and I can see that, well then make it warmer, certainly.

unknown 40:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

You know?

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:31

Um and yeah, obviously it's if in that specific situation it is warmer. So it like it fits in the worlds of world of physics and light and color because it's happening. But if you can't necessarily articulate why, then just don't worry about it. Like make it warmer. And if it looks right, it is right, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Sure, sure. I think yeah, a lot of those dogmatic rules tend to get in the way of of um innovation in people's paintings, I think, personally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:04

Yeah, it's it's funny, like because there are a lot of things about painting and art in general that like there's there's a lot of technical information, there's a lot of um historical information, all this blah blah blah. There's a lot to talk about. And and you can get into the weeds on all of it, which gives it a sort of importance, you know. And I think when students I think when students themselves become dogmatic, uh you know, so and so said this, and therefore I have to do it that way. I think part of it is there's so much to understand, and they understand this one thing, so I'm gonna hold on to that because that makes sense to me. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Um I I think that's where some of it stems from, and I'm sure we all have had a version of that at some point.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Um and there are things that tend to be true, you know. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm not like denying that there isn't, you know, things that tend to be true. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Yeah. Um yeah, I think it's better to be a little more loose with all of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Well, so okay, we're gonna wrap up here, but shameless plug. What uh do you have any teaching coming up on the books that you're excited about?

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Oh, I do. Um, I'm teaching a workshop uh here in Door County in um June. I think we still have a couple of seats open in that workshop. Um June 4, no, 15th through the 18th, I think. No, something like that. Anyway, uh middle of June. Uh, and then I've got another workshop up here in September. Uh, and then I'll be teaching a workshop in Wayne, Pennsylvania, in also in September, towards the end of September. So uh I think that's it for this year. I've got something for next year, although I don't have that uh in front of me. But anyway, how about you, Tara?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

I will be teaching in Oregon City in May and Cartersville, Georgia in June. And I'll be back in Scottsdale in November to teach. And then next year I was invited to um that Bluebird Studio. Um, it's in Santa Fe area. Um I've never um never taken a class there, but I've heard it's amazing. So um I'm excited for that. And then yeah, I did the like I know I love Santa Fe. We're going there this summer, I'm excited. Um and then I do the online stuff. I think it's still worth doing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

This month I'm doing the backlit landscape, which is one of my favorites. Cause I feel like there's so many cool opportunities for um negative space and like cool dichotomies of value. So yeah, it'll be fun.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

That okay, quick tangent, but on that note, uh I I don't do a lot of backlit stuff, but you can play with so much color in those shadows, and then you pop that one little highlight to that rim lighting, and then it all comes together. It's just it's really fun.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

It is fun. I think it's interesting to have light that's obstructed, and how do you explain that to a viewer, you know? So um, that'll be our topic. And then the the 20 on Tuesdays, I start to run out of ideas. So if any of you guys have ideas, send them my way. I'm happy to teach whatever anybody wants. Um, I start to be like, okay, I don't I don't know what everybody wants. So um yeah, it starts to, you know, I know the things that I think are important, but like I said, I don't think all the time people um necessarily I don't I don't think they know how important it is sometimes. You know what I mean? Yeah, um like things that I find to be essential um aren't always the things that people have a a strong interest in.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

So we all find our own way.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yes, as we should, and hopefully I I hope that everybody has really cool mentors that are very encouraging to them along the way to kind of utilize the information in their own way, you know. Yeah, autonomy piece in there.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

Yeah, I we should stress that while we as teachers uh have the things that we think are important to talk about. Um and they are to us and should be to you to a certain extent, but also you you are your own artist and of course, yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

I'm not implying what is important to me is important to you. I'm just saying from even from like looking at of critiquing or having been a judge for competition and things, it's like you can kind of almost, like we said, diagnose what kind of issue it is. Is it a draftsmanship issue, is it a value issue, is it a color issue, is it a composition issue?

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Um, and so it's up to them to figure out how to solve it.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Exactly. And take all of it worth a grain of salt. If you're like, this is my style and I like it, that's great. Like take whatever information you're looking from, you know, for whatever information you are looking for from said person, apply it in your own life, and you know, I think that's the best way to do it.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

I would agree 100%.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Yeah. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

Well, wonderful listeners, thank you for joining us. Um I don't know what our next topic will be. Uh we we gotta figure that out. But uh until next time, happy painting, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Thanks for joining us. Happy painting.