Framing Your Paintings with the Practical Palette

In this episode of the Practical Palette, Tara and Marc discuss their approaches to framing paintings, and why a good, well-considered frame matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

And so I said to him, I'm like, well, are you sure you wouldn't want to pick something a little less garish?

SPEAKER_04 0:08

And he got so mad and he was like, get someone else. I'm not working with her. Blah, blah, blah. You know.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Hello, and welcome to the Practical Palette Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

I'm Tara.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

And I'm Mark. And we'll explore the world of fine art and representational painting through the lens of philosophy, art history, and our own art making practices. Today, Tara and I will be talking about framing.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Hey, hey.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Hey.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

I'm good. Sorry, I uh wasn't sure if we were starting at 10 or 11.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Sorry, I never really circled that wagon there. Okay. I hung a Patrick Lee painting behind me, but I hung it too high. You can't see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_05 1:11

Isn't that cool?

SPEAKER_03 1:14

I just had a very funny um I was I was scrolling through Instagram this morning and I saw someone doing uh it looked like a workshop demo. I was like, man, that looks a lot like Patrick's work. And it was Patrick. I don't know why. Like I didn't I didn't see the the name. So okay, uh just talking about space and all that. Um I was just reminded of that, and which this might be a good segue into what we're gonna be talking about, which is framing. Um because I have too many frames, and I just ordered more a couple of days ago, and I almost ordered some more this morning, which are like not, I don't even I would use them, but I don't the the need is not imminent. Um there are frames sitting on the floor, which I thought I've got this whole studio space, this new studio space. Um I've got a whole wall that's just frame storage, and then there's a cabinet that's frame storage, and it's just frames on frames on frames, but I still have like frames sitting on the floor, frames stacked up on a bench, and uh yeah, it's uh it's an obsession, maybe a little bit of a problem.

SPEAKER_05 2:31

Well, it's hard because you never know what you need exactly. Did you know? Okay, are we starting?

SPEAKER_03 2:37

We're like still right. Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

We're in it, we're in it. Um, so did you know this is like a little hack for all of all of you out there in the universe who are listening who can access a Michaels? Um, they have these things called oops frames. Have you ever heard of this? No, no, I was introduced to it by either my sister or my aunt, and they had gone into a Michaels and went back to like the custom framing area, and they were like, Do you have any oops frames? There, we locally in Maryland at least, they're called oops frames, right? And so what it is is they get they build the frame the wrong size, or a lot of that is not done in-house. So they send the wrong size or whatever, and they're all eight dollars. It doesn't matter if they are five by seven, it doesn't matter if they're 72 by 86, they're all eight dollars.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

That's wild.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

And I'm talking like Larson Joule, like um Roma molding, like very nice high-end materials. It's not like like plastic, like okay, I will give you the warning. You don't want to get like that compressed cardboard polystyrene nonsense or anything like that. So you have to like look at the back and confirm that it's wood or like a good company that you know makes wood. Um, but they're all eight dollars. So like go check your local Michaels, and they could be weird sizes, but just like cut your cut your thing to that size.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Yeah, some of those like nice moldings are like eight dollars a foot or more.

SPEAKER_05 4:17

Actually, probably twenty or forty dollars a foot. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

So yeah, actually, I would say eight dollars. That's that's on the cheap end, just for yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

Like a finished molding that's wood. So yeah, check your Michaels. I'm I'm full of good tips and tricks.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

I like that. So uh here's my my only issue with that it was because like I said, I've got too many frames. And why why I have too many frames is I've got a bunch of frames similar to that, where it's like, oh, this it was a good deal on this, uh, but then I just never use it because it's not the frame that I like. You're like, I I mean, I like okay, actually right behind over here there. Uh like a standard black and gold frame with a you know somewhat chunky profile. That's what I like. But I keep trying different uh different styles or you know, a silver frame, a gold frame, and I just can never quite get it to work. Um, and so I've got I've I've gotten rid of a lot of them. I've been able to, but uh there's still uh a handful, you know, that just kind of they sit around eventually.

SPEAKER_05 5:32

The I mean they all go eventually, but uh well it's good too for like you know, family or friends or like a donation or this or that. Like it's nice to have something that you didn't invest a ton of money in that you can use for something like that, you know, and that way you don't feel like you're losing hundreds of dollars in framing to to donate something or to I don't know if you do donations or whatever, but um you know, family and friends are and they're nice, nice um moldings.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Little tip tip trick there. So didn't you make a lot of your own own moldings though?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah, uh so I start I mean, I so I've always done um you know a little woodworking here and there, and then um I guess I got really serious about it during COVID because you know, that that first well 2020, um, where our entire calendars were cancelled, you know, all the shows we had lined up and all that. Um which I wasn't thrilled about, you know, a little nervous, but also did give me enough time to uh basically I sat down and I checked how many paintings I had sold from the the previous couple years, you know, on average, and I said I'm gonna make that many frames and just be set up for for the next year. Yeah, because frames are expensive. And uh so I I did just that. And the the starting out, they they were kind of crude, like I it took some experimentation to figure out the a good finish. Um, because I like that somewhat antique look, you know, with a little like dust patina on it, um, so it's not too clean, you know. Um, and so yeah, there was a bit of an experimentation there. And uh playing with different materials, and uh so I started out using MDF, which is um, you know, it's uh it's on the cheaper end, and but it's it's pretty pretty durable. Uh it's just it's really heavy. Um that that can be a problem at larger sizes, but I mean it's not so so heavy, but it's heavier. Um but that was always uh I mean that was a good place to start, I should say. And and then from there, yeah, it was just more experimentation. So I I did these kind of like panel frames, that was kind of a simpler version. Then I I did some more ornate frames, played around with um hand-carved frames, gilding frames.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

The corners are not.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah, and that's very time consuming. So I kind of reserved that for more fancy stuff, you know, uh, like uh special shows or if a painting really deserved it, um, or needed it, I should say. Maybe something like that, but or if I just wanted to do it, because that's that's a big part of it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Yeah, so I was just teaching in Cartersville, Georgia, at the Booth Um Art Academy, which is in tandem or connection with the Booth Museum there. I don't know. Have you ever gone there in your travels?

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Yeah, there was um oh shoot. There was a big show there going on.

SPEAKER_05 8:57

Um Scott Christensen show. Scott Christensen show. That's hard to say in order.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

There was it was uh uh Scott Christensen and Quang Ho. Yeah, this is probably five or six years ago. Um, and it was going on the same time that I was driving through the area, so I swung in and saw that. That's a beautiful museum.

SPEAKER_05 9:18

It's such a great museum, it's fabulous, and um, I love visiting it. There's an Ed Mel painting that they have in like the permanent collection that is I could just stand in front of it forever. It's beautiful. Um, but right now they have a Jeremy Lipking show. Yeah, I've seen some photos from that of his stuff. It's so amazing, really. And um, and all of his frames are these very expensive, fancy, finished corner, you know, like the real, real deal. And I was like talking to a friend um was visiting with me, and I was like, like the math of it too, for a lot of these fancy corners where they're doing these, you know, carved corners, there's like a percentage of how far you want that to go into the painting, you know, if the painting's a standard size or not, like it's a very complex thing. It's not just like, oh, I'm just gonna slap this frame on here, and there's gonna be a three-inch border on all four corners, and this is the size. It's like they kind of take into account, you know, how far into the composition of that painting that design should go. Do you know what I'm saying? Like the ones that have the real fancy corners. Um and so it's really funny. Did you see that? Just thumbs up.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:45

Um, so yeah, it was just really beautiful. And I love those kind of finished corner molding frames. I think they're just stunning. They're just their own little art piece, you know?

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yeah, yeah. Actually, okay, so let's let's back up. So you worked at a frame shop and gallery in high school, right?

SPEAKER_05 11:06

I did. That was my worst job, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

What I guess let what was that experience like? How what did you learn about framing there? And how do how has that kind of shaped how you think about framing now?

SPEAKER_05 11:20

So I didn't build the physical frames, but I could do all the other things. So Andrew, um, Lou and Andrew are the owners of the frame shop. They're like family to me. I've been there since I was 16. I still go there and now. And um so it's really kind of funny. I was very young, I was 16, and it was my first job. I think uh I think I'm like dating myself here. I think it was like five or six dollars an hour. No, kind of cool. Um, so um, and we she let me do pretty much everything um uh other than cutting of the frames. So I did um we call we would call them fit-ups. It's different, I think, for people who don't use glass versus people who use glass because it's kind of a little bit of a different beast when you're including glass versus when you're just framing an oil that doesn't require glass. So there's they would call it like a a fit, we would call them fit-ups. So you would clean the glass, put whatever kind of guts go into the glass, put the backer on, usually some kind of acid-free foam core, and then you use points to point the back, and then you tape the back, and then you paper the back, and then you put the hardware on, you know, that kind of um stuff. And but it also was designing with clients too, which was kind of fun. Um I just remember 16-year-old Tara who had just gotten out of what I was in high school. I had probably been working there for a while because I I don't think I knew this reference in high school. Um, but when I was in college, I worked there too, like part-time. And I was designing with this older gentleman who had like this, I don't know, World War I or two photo, it's this beautiful sepia photo. And he's like, I want a flag red mat and a bright blue secondary mat. And I'm thinking, you're destroying this beautiful thing that like does not require those colors right now, like it's so pretty, and it's this beautiful um, you know, sepia toned vintage painting, which it just would crush your soul with some of the design choices that they would make. And it was funny because I said to him, I'm like, well, and this, and in college we had been studying the FAVIS, right? So I didn't really know, and we said it all in a very positive way. So I didn't really know that the word had the negative connotation that it has because um I was like 16 and we had been using it in regards to the the FAVIS that we were talking about. And so I said to him, I'm like, well, are you sure you wouldn't want to pick something a little less garish?

SPEAKER_04 14:18

And he got so mad and he was like, get someone else. I'm not working with her, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

You know, and it was just kind of funny because like young person Tara didn't really realize the connotation of it because we had used it in almost like a positive way when we were talking about like the Favists and the, you know, they use these bold, garish colors, you know. And yeah, to me, I didn't see that as a bad thing. I thought it was like kind of like a cool thing that it was so colorful. And in my head, I was thinking it was more of a term that we used like that. And so he was like, I'll never forget that. He was just like, give me someone else. I'm not working with this person. And I was like, Well, you're well, you are destroying your photo, but you you do what you want, you know? So it's hard to um to allow designs that you have to put your name on, like slip through the cracks and be like, yeah, I designed that. I didn't, I didn't really want to, but that's what they wanted. So, you know, customer's always right.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing. So when I'm framing work, I I usually will pick a frame that is that I well certainly that I like that I think works with the painting. Um and when I'm here, it's something that looks good in the the gallery. Um with no real consideration for what it's gonna look like in someone else's home, other than it as a unit will look good, you know. Um but there are but I I also don't this is why I don't do those hand carved frames that often, is because I'll spend all that time and effort in a frame that looks fantastic, uh, and then they're gonna ask to reframe it because it doesn't match their couch or whatever. And right. And that's something I I learned early on is just not to be too precious about it because it is going in someone else's home. And while the frame does give context to the painting, you know, you kind of have to let go of that a little bit. Um you know, once it once it leaves your hands.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

So when you do an event, are you are you doing the same frame on every painting for the event?

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Not always. Usually they're they're pretty consistent um in style. And yeah, I mean, if I can. That's that's actually a good question. So I remember when I first started and I was doing art fairs. I mean, I had frames from all over the place. I was using like goodwill frames and you know, whatever I could get my hands on. And it looked pretty messy, uh, but I would see other artists who had a very consistent framing across everything, maybe even the exact same frame. And it looked like a really cohesive, nice body of work. Um, there was a unity there that you know you just can't achieve unless you have some consistency.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah, and I think too. Sorry, I'm interrupting you.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 17:25

I think too, people would be like, Well, I like that painting, but I like that frame. And like, why can't I have that frame on that? You know what I mean? And so if they're all the same, you kind of avoid that conundrum as well, you know?

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yeah, yeah. Um it does it also makes uh your decision making a lot easier because you just have fewer options. Um yeah, with when it comes to doing events uh like plain air events, uh I used to have like a mostly black and gold, but then I would try uh like a gold or a lighter frame, maybe a gray and gold frame, uh, for a few sizes just to have extras in case something needed it, um, as a as a fallback. Um rarely ever would I use those, but it was nice to have the option. Now I don't even mess around with it because I'm like black and gold, everything black and gold.

SPEAKER_05 18:25

It's funny. I do think that you tend to like certain things and coming from a framing background and not necessarily a plan air background, I think I came in with some pretty specific ideas of things that I already liked as far as molding. And so um for me, the traditional heavy Plan Air frame is just sometimes just too heavy for me. And I think it also depends too. I mean, I paint pretty wild. And so if my marks are crazy and my frame is crazy, it's just too much crazy. Um, so I do think that having a consistent frame for an event like that resolves the, oh, I like this frame of that painting. It resolves the the mention you mentioned, like the cohesive nature of feeling like it's a body of work instead of just like random things that you kind of you know threw together. Um I also think it it enhances the work when you choose a molding that enhances what you've done. You know what I mean? So something to me, I prefer like cleaner, narrower. Actually, I I much prefer, well, that's not always it. Really does depend on on the piece, but I do like I do like a narrow kind of contemporary, clean frame that can let the painting be crazy on its own inside, and I don't have to worry about it like obstructing that they don't fight with each other, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Yeah. That's that's actually a really good point. Uh uh, I should say, like, I didn't just arbitrarily land on black and gold as a uh choice. Like that works for me. It's not necessarily gonna work for everybody. Like, you kind of have to, like you said, with your work, like understand what your work is doing and what's gonna complement that, what's not gonna take away from it um or conflict too much. So for me, I'm I'm using quite a bit of value contrast, so some really light lights and some dark darks, especially if it's you know a sunny day. And so I've got some warm notes in in the shadows, along with some cools and then uh warms in the light. Uh on a yeah, on a sunny day, it'll be warm in the light. So a black and gold frame, the black, especially if there's like a red clay bowl underpainting, that that warmth is going to pull out the warmth in the shadows and make those shadows sing a lot more, while the gold will play with the the light. Um, so it's kind of like a it works on a lot of different levels. And it's you know, it's black, so it's it lets the the colors pop a lot more. Because I have uh compared to your work, I would say more sedate color choices. Um, and so that allows those to just kind of sit on their own and not um not get lost. Like sometimes with gold, uh that can be too overpowering with my paintings. So that's why I usually don't use gold.

SPEAKER_05 21:27

Um yeah, there is that warm cool thing too. You're getting both, which is nice.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Yeah, and that's why I like a little like uh a dust patina on the frames because that that brings out more of the cools. Um now I've tried using silver frames a lot, and it just never seems to work unless it's a like a higher key painting, which I don't do that often. But I've seen other people use silver frames to great effect, and I'm like, man, I wish I could do that.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

I could count on like one hand out of hundreds of. Not thousands of paintings I've painted that I've ever used a silver frame. Yeah. There's something cold about it that just doesn't really engage with my what palettes I'm usually attracted to. Um it doesn't mean they're bad, it just means it's just I think you start to know what you tend to do. And then you because you were saying like the black and gold. I like like a chocolate and gold, like a walnut kind of but the walnut provides that kind of cool color that I think complements um complements a lot of the things that I do. But um yeah, I I think it's good to be aware of what your palette tends to be, especially if you're plenaire painting, because you don't have the option to pick something different once you've, you know, you don't know what you're gonna put in that frame. So keeping it, you know, within the means of what typically looks good on your work, I think is a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Um when it comes to that, like let's say for events, because I know you you have to do more custom framing for your stuff, right? Like um are you what considerations do you make when you're going to a plain air event uh with all that?

SPEAKER_05 23:20

So uh ours is a little different again because of the glass piece, but it's not I think it's even harder than necessarily like a watercolor artist who has a glass piece because well, I guess they come with mats too. But so the way framing works is um for pastel, typically you want a like a air gap. So there's a material called it's from Frame Tech, F-R-A-M-E-T-E-K. I don't get any money from them. Um, and they make frame space. And so it's kind of a little channel that sits on the inside edge of the glass. And you cut it to size depending on how big your how big your glass is. And um, it produces an air gap between the painting and the glass, right? Because we don't want the glass smearing the painting or condensation getting in between the two, you know, and it touching kind of thing. I need to put my hands down. Um, and so um I had found that flexible points. So when you when you're putting all these all these guts together, um, you have to put some kind of point in there to hold it in. So when you're looking for the the equipment to do this, it's called a point driver or a point gun, whatever you want to call it. Um, but there are actually different kinds of point guns. So there's ones that are black typically that have like a silver point that's a very, very hard metal. Um, and then there are also points that are flexible. So they're usually a little bit thinner and they are typically black. I don't know if they make other colors, but um, so that they can be bent at least one or two times before they will snap, right? You you don't want to use them 25 times. Like you, they they do have a lifespan. Um, but what we found was a lot of times if you put a pastel face down with the backer and then you go to point it, all that jostling is just gonna make the pastel fall into the glass, get the glass dirty, right? So, what I started doing was putting the glass in, putting with the frame space, putting the backer in, putting in the flexible points around the edges. And that would be like a prepped frame for Plenair. And then when I paint the painting, open the flex points, put the painting in, flex the points back, and that way I'm not beating up the painting while I'm putting it together and getting the glass all dirty, right? So it's like you start to learn these little tricks to make life easier when you're traveling and framing out of the backseat of your car. Um and so to me, the flex points are very useful for that. And if, you know, if you were in a situation where you were able to kind of completely finish the painting, um, the back, I'm sorry, finish like the back of the painting. Um, you would then you could use like a framers tape to tape those down nice and sturdy so that no like bugs and stuff get in there over time. Um, you can then use the double-sided tape on the edge and paper the back real pretty. You know, there are ways to kind of make it nice and clean. Um but essentially to me, it made a big difference to not have to point and kind of jostle that painting so much so that everything falls onto the face of the glass. It's kind of a pain to do it that way.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

So yeah, yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a lot more work. I'm glad I don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_05 26:56

That's funny. Yeah, it's kind of a pain. And then sometimes, like if it wasn't possible and you were fitting, you'd almost like put the painting face up on the table that you're working on and kind of lean down and point underneath so that you can leave it on its back during the jostling part. Oh, sure. Because like it really does make a mess if you um flip that over and then you know get those points in there. It's it can be very messy. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

I mean those, yeah, those point drivers, they're spring loaded. So every time you squeeze it, it like it jostles everything or well, you know, hits pretty hard. I could see that being a big problem. I mean, I I've had like paintings shift around, like if the painting's a little bit smaller than the like sometimes uh when frames are cut, um, you know, there's supposed to be like an eighth of an inch uh around on the rabbit.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

The rabbit is the recessed area that the painting sits in. Um and or rebate, if you're British, that's how they say that. And yeah, I've had it shift um just from that that jostling where all of a sudden the uh the painting's now like falling out of the hole.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

Um because it would I had it lined up perfectly and then but well they do also sticky frame space that's like it could be well, they make them different depths. It's a it's kind of a neat product. It might be useful to you to just have on hand, but they make one that's like a sixteenth of an inch sticky, so you could potentially put that on the interior of where your painting's gonna sit. Do you know what I'm saying? Like if the painting wasn't quite snug, you could put that sticky stuff in there and it would kind of hold it tight too. Yeah. They make a one and they make a clip-on one. And I like generally like the clip-on one better because I'm like, I don't want the sticky to fail at some point and have it fall down inside the painting, you know.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

But yeah, I do know what you mean when they it's like you have a little bit too much of because actually a student was asking me um for the eighth part. They were like, Well, do I tell the framer the eighth? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. You tell them the size you want it and they know to eighth it because you can't fit an object that is eight by ten into a hole that is eight by ten, right? Because it's the same size. Like, so it needs to be slightly bigger, and they account for that themselves. So don't don't tell them eight and an eighth by ten and an eighth, and then think you're gonna fit your painting in there because you're not.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah. Yeah. And that's I mean that that goes for a lot of uh wood things when it's like perfectly sized, um, because wood moves based on you know humidity and stuff like that. So if if it's let's say how it's eight by ten and you somehow got it in there, all of a sudden it gets really humid, and then everything swells up, and now you're uh for me. If I'm working on a plywood panel, which is what I do, that might like be compressed and now is like blowing out or doing weird things. Um so it's it's good to have that that little gap in there. Um just make sure it's an eighth of an inch, otherwise you're gonna be Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:20

And your framer will do it for you, or the or the person who built the frame will uh automatically knows that that has to be done. Um so it's not anything that you need to account for on your end, like they know uh sometimes with uh with float frames, which I I don't know how you would use a float frame.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

I guess if you mounted a painting on a on a panel. I've seen uh watercolor artists use float frames if they're um but they can varnish their their paintings. Um where was I going with that? Oh yeah, the the standard there is a quarter inch gap between the painting and the the profile. Um but I've s you can ask for different sizes, you know, up to three-eighths or half an inch. Um but that's something you'd would have to specify. Otherwise quarter inch is standard.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Yeah, and that's also additional stuff you'd have to like dust. Because if there was a big gap between your painting and the frame, I'm sure it would start to get kind of gross over time. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Um yeah, those uh well, I don't worry about that. It's looks looks good for my house when it's when it's in someone's.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

I love that thing, yes. Yeah, and I didn't real quick just because you're not a glass guy. Um there are different types of glass, certainly. I oh yeah, yeah. Um there's regular glass that doesn't have any UV properties to it at all. So um things fade. Typically, reds and yellows fades first. Um, and then you're left with blues. Like, have you ever seen like a poster that's been faded out in the sun and like a bill, like in someone's shop window or something, and only color left is blue, pretty much, because like all the other colors disappear. It's probably because there's no um UV protection on there. Um, but then there's UV glass that has the regular properties of glass as far as its reflectiveness. Um, and that has UV properties that help protect the pigment from fading over time. And then there's um non-glare glass, which it starts to get a little confusing because there's non-glare glass, which is like a frosted glass, but then there's also anti-reflective glass, which is clear glass that has a coating on it that makes it so that you can't see any reflections on it. And that's what I like to use. They have varying degrees of that glass too, like museum glass or AR glass or whatever. Um, but for pastel specifically, the frosted glass, if you use that spacer, the frosted glass is gonna make your entire painting blurry, right? Because if you space something frosted away from the painting, it's gonna be very not clear anymore. Um, whereas if you put a frosted glass directly onto the painting, um, or pastel, I'm sorry. I use them interchangeably, they're the same to me, but I know there's a big debate apparently about about that. But if you put the glass directly onto the pastel, then the non-glare lets you see the pastel. But as you space it away that with that spacer we're talking about, it's basically going to make your pastel a blurry mess. So uh anti-reflective is kind of what you want. So look for AR or antireflective. Don't look for non-glare, because non-glare just means etched, basically. Like it's uh like that frosted edged glass, which does you no good because then no one can see the painting. Just a little glass break down there.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

How do you uh when it comes to uh profiles uh with your oil paintings? Is that are you relatively consistent there? Like similar to what you would do with a a pastel?

SPEAKER_05 34:29

I mean obviously no glass, but yeah, I think I just I think I think it's probably because my work has such a I don't want to say wild or dynamic quality to it that sometimes the bigger frames can just feel real heavy on it. And so I generally tend to prefer um a more narrow contemporary kind of molding. Um it's just a personal preference though. I've always at the frame shop trying to squeeze things that can't quite hold into a narrow, you know what I mean? Like as things get bigger, the glass gets heavier and the molding needs to proportionally increase in size for it to be able to hold the weight of the glass. So yeah, um, but I'm always trying to push that limit because I just love like a narrow, like disappearing frame. I don't know why, but um yeah. So I I don't know, I just like clean, clean lines. I love hardwood, I love you know, clean maples or clean walnuts or clean oaks, quartisson oaks, any of the kind of hardwoods I I like. And um yeah. Does your frame proportionally get bigger as your painting gets bigger?

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Usually, yeah, yeah. I would typically so like smaller paintings, I mean let's say like uh five by seven up to eight by ten, maybe eleven by fourteen. Um, like a two-inch profile is pretty good. Like that has some some weight to it, um, visual visual weight, uh, but it's not overpowering. I mean, sometimes it's fun to see a huge frame on a small painting. Um, it doesn't always work, but sometimes that's kind of cool. Uh it gives like an extra air of importance to uh to a small painting. Um but typically I wouldn't do that. Um and then once I go larger, yeah. I it's usually a three to three to four inch profile. Um and those it almost acts like a mat, you know, where it's it separates the painting from the the wall um visually. Uh because I don't know, I don't know what it is about my work. Like your work, I would agree. I I think it works really well with a very slim profile. Um but for mine, I just need a little more heft to it. Or I like to see that. Like I've tried slimmer profiles on large paintings, and it works, but I just feel like the painting kind of gets lost. Uh or something behind me.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

Um that is I want to say I want to say 3636. And that's a and I know that that's a floater frame, so they're slightly different. Um, but I just love like the cleanness of that. So I think it is so much of it is your personal preference, you know. What what do you like? So I mean, if you like the the wider frames having like that kind of significance or like weight to them, then yeah, I think that's good. I think everybody kind of knows what works best for their work, you know?

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And okay, so um, so I show with uh Le Prince Fine Art uh the gallery down in Charleston, South Carolina. And when I first started working with them, I had been sending black and gold frames, the same stuff I used everywhere else. And it got to the point where everyone who bought a painting was reframing it like immediately. And so they told me no more black and gold frames. Um no more of the the big heavy black frames. And I think it's uh I mean it's uh an aesthetic thing down there, like they just they prefer lighter, slimmer profile frames, and so I've got a few floaters, uh flow frames that I I use, and I I've grown to appreciate them. Um if I had my drawers, everything would be frame chunky black and gold, but um but I I have been able to make that work and and certainly appreciate. I mean, definitely the like the clean lines that you're talking about. I don't think it always works for my stuff, but but there are times where I'm like, oh yeah, that actually not just works, but like kind of enhanced it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

Um have you ever thought oops, sorry I interrupted you. Oh, go ahead. Have you ever thought about when you go to a specific location, what kind of molding would fit with that locale and take that with you? Like, oh, I'm going to sunny California, I'm gonna do gold or light wood, or I'm going to Florida, I'm gonna do like whitewashi or maple, or I'm going to the middle of Colorado, I'm gonna do some kind of rustic wood-toned thing. Do you have you thought about that?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

I I have experimented with that a little bit. Uh definitely in in Colorado, yeah, some more rustic stuff. I mean, it's still, you know, black and gold, but maybe a little more distressed feeling. Um California? Yeah, I think I did use more gold there. And I was actually able to get away with it because the there's so much gold in the landscape out there, so many yellows and warm earth tones that that actually made more sense. Um Florida's tricky because most of the the painting I've done there has been at the Lighthouse Arts Center, Plenair. Um, and it's very convenient. Well, we haven't mentioned many brands yet. Uh, JFM is a framer out of uh the Atlanta area. And so Pat from JFM, he always drives the truck down there loaded with frames. You can get put in an order there.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Yeah, Pat's the best. Uh so JFM.net, I believe is their website. Um uh so yeah, I usually put it in a huge order and just get a ton of frames and typically would stick with that black and gold. And that seems to be what everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people do in that show. So if I were to do something a little bit more coastal feeling, um, it might stand out in the show, which uh whether or not that's a good or bad thing, I don't know. But um I have thought about it uh there specifically because I think you could do much more like Florida has its own aesthetic uh for interior design that you could definitely lean into.

SPEAKER_05 41:17

Generally speaking, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Not always a lot more, you know, pastel colors, very light. Um, and so their like black frames are very heavy and don't always seem to be appropriate, but I also haven't really had that no like nobody's mentioned the framing to me there, so which I find kind of funny.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

Um yeah, there's this molding. I don't even a lot of these companies are sadly um like going out, not necessarily going out of business, but greatly reducing their lines as far as the different you know, molding designs. And um, several of my favorites are gone. They're not there anymore. There's I think it was Larson had this molding that was like a waxed uh walnut that had a an actual like hammered brass edge on it, which I always really liked. It was very mid-century kind of feeling and looked really good with the the things that I and the gold was actually on the outside, not on the inside, which I liked too, because it was like this kind of almost like backwards thing. Um, and they don't make it anymore, and it's really sad. And so um there's another company, Omega. I don't know if they make it anymore either, but we we always called it the knife because it just really sharp drops off into the painting with a nice edge. So I I do love a good like angle into a painting. Well, no, I guess it would be angle out. Um I love a good angle though, yeah. It's really nice. And if it's like, let's say it's gold or something, it almost like reflects some gold onto like the edge in a pretty way sometimes. You know?

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

So um, yeah, it's fun to see all the different moldings, but a lot of those companies sadly are are really paring down the lines of what they produce anymore. So many, many, many beautiful, especially like Roma molding, um, which was a uh you should see if you can look up videos of them. They did all of that red clay on top of of the wood that they would do, but they would put it into molds and then lay the mold down and then gold leaf the mold and then paint the mold and then go, you know, it was this process that was just stunning. Um and they just you know aren't doing it anymore. So a lot of those water guilds they call them water guilds, um, are not being produced, which is sad.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

But that's I I feel Like, I mean, there's still definitely a number of companies that are doing like the much more traditional handmade frames where it's water gilding hand carved stuff. Uh, those are I mean, there's some out there that are like pretty reasonably priced, considering how much work goes into them. Uh, but they're still not not cheap. Um, but uh okay, so speaking of all the traditional handmade stuff, there's a type of frame that I absolutely love, and I just cannot make it work for my paintings, is uh like screffito frames.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

I love scraffito, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

So it'll be you know, there's usually like gold on the inside, gold on the outside, and then black panel with uh scraffito gold underneath, and there's some design scratching into it. I absolutely love the look of it. I've even I've played around with doing it myself, and I made some pretty awesome frames, uh, but it just didn't, it was too busy for my my paintings, and it kind of broke my heart a little bit. Oh I love it. It's a I'm not gonna stop trying, but well, you could.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

I wonder if you did a design that was a little maybe less complicated. So it's a very Victorian thing, like very um, if you Google it, look at like look, Google like Victorian um scraffito frames. They're wild, like how complex they are and the designs that are in them and all of that. So I wonder if you did it sparingly, like on a corner with a simplicity.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

I think there's ways to do it.

SPEAKER_05 45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

Um the ones that I did were much more traditional designs. Um yeah, I could probably make it work, but um, but and also the the gold on the inside and the outside, which is necessary to frame in the scraffito, but it's also it's it's a bit much um for for my stuff. So if I can find a way to lessen the gold on the outside, maybe and uh and then pair down the design.

SPEAKER_05 46:09

The ones I've seen are black, typically black, and then the scraffito underneath is white, like plaster or something on it.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Oh, so this goes back to like uh like Italian Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:23

Uh I wonder if you did something like that and then did like a wash of a color that was closer to that black, like uh you know what I mean, like almost like a tone-on-tones graffito, that'd be pretty. Graffito's really cool. I didn't know you made those. That's neat.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

I I've made a handful of them. That also is fairly, or at least the way I did it, was pretty labor-intensive. Um I'm sure people who do it often are proficient at it. Uh, I was not. Um, and then that coupled with the fact that I couldn't get it to work with my paintings, was uh there's not a lot of incentive to keep doing it, other than the fact that I really like those frames.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

Um, but I don't know. I'll keep trying.

SPEAKER_05 47:09

I was gonna say, maybe you need a fancy mirror in your house somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:15

You can put it on the yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 47:18

I did I was able to uh so I had this one, I think it was like a 12 by 16 uh scraffito frame, and it was just sitting around, and I felt bad because like I spent a lot of time on it, and um every painting I put in there was not working, and then I had this one still life study experiment. It was like a high-key um limited palette piece, it did not look like anything, the the rest of my work at all. And I put that in there, and I'm like, it strangely worked, like it was kind of a mismatch of styles that made it funky and fun. Um and like a couple weeks later, someone came into the gallery and bought it and like described that exact thing as why they liked it because it was kind of funky and weird and and fun. So so that worked, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:14

I um I bought for myself a um an undermount joiner and cutter. And then I was like, you know what, my fingers are very useful to me. And I can cut glass in the studio, I can cut cardboard, I can cut acrylic, I can cut that aluminum composite panel with the mounted cutter that I have. And I'm like, I just don't want to dedicate my studio space to those tools. So I ended up just turning around and selling them for what I got them for. But um, so for me personally, I I've been thinking about it a lot, and I'm thinking it's it would be easier for me to get a frame and then have me just put the guts in there than for me to be building frames. I want to do everything, but there are things that are and aren't worth your time, and I don't have the um the knowledge or this like you're a woodworker, so you know how to do it. And I know it so is labor-intensive for you, but you would you could do it much faster than I would be able to. Um so I'm like, you know what? I think I'm just gonna stick to acquiring frames and figuring out how to um to get all the guts in there.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

That's a good, good point. Uh, I mean, there's so many because as artists we have to wear so many hats, it's a good idea to know what what you can do efficiently, what you should outsource, you know, if you're thinking about efficiency and like put on your business hat. Um but then there are some things that you just want to do because you're an artist and you want to try things. And for me, that's frame making.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

Um I wish I had the affinity for it. I don't.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

Oh next time you're over this way, we'll get you out in the shop.

SPEAKER_05 50:08

Oh, that'd be fun.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

But yeah, it's I don't know. I haven't really made that many. Um, well, certainly since we moved here, which is now coming up on three years, or I guess three years, whatever. Been a while. Um and it took me a while to get the shop set up. Uh, and then finally when I did, I think I it was just this last year that I actually made some frames um for the first time. I mean, I've been one thing you can do uh if you're getting a lot of custom frames made, um, you can just order the just the sticks, so not assembled, so you'll you'll save on shipping, and then you just glue glue the glue everything up, which is pretty easy to do. Um so if you're looking for for the listeners, uh if you're looking for it kind of an entry way into just get a feel for how this how the frame assembly works, um, you can do that. Um and I that I I do still do fairly often, um especially with bigger frames, just because shipping gets really expensive on those. So if you just uh assemble them yourself, yeah. I mean I don't literally save yourself.

SPEAKER_05 51:19

But you know those V corner things with the strap that tightens. Do you use one of those?

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Uh a corner clamp.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Uh I mean I've heard I've seen different names for it. Um, but yeah, it's well, there's band clamps, so it's uh it's similar to like a ratchet strap, although uh there are some that do ratchet, and then there's some that you just pull tight and then there's a screw handle that puts tension on it. Yeah, um, I've I've got a few of those. And that's I do use those, uh, although a lot of the companies that sell frames like this, they've got kind of a bow tie key that you pound into the um into the joint and it pulls everything tight.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

I I don't trust that that much. It just kind of holds things in place long enough for me to get the clamp on it to actually glue it up. Um but that's yeah, and those band clamps are I mean, you can get a cheap one for like 15 bucks. A good one is 30, maybe. Um so there it's pretty, pretty reasonable.

SPEAKER_05 52:24

Well, is there anything else we didn't get to framing-wise? I think we talked, I will say for people working on paper, it's it is very important for you to use acid-free materials if if at all possible. Um just because a lot of the reason why if you walk into a museum and the pigments um and you're in a pastel show and the lights are kind of low, it's because the the papers and the things that they were working on were so volatile, acidic or cardboard or whatever they could find. And so um we're using the same pigments that you're using in soft pastel, and it basically just has no binder in it to hold it together. And so they have a much better light fastness and longevity than a lot of the other mediums that are using them because there's nothing, there are no addit, you know, additive things that are altering the chemistry of them and degrading them over time. So um, I would just encourage you know, acid-free materials and certainly UV if you want or can afford that.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Well, I think we covered it. I think we did all right.

SPEAKER_05 53:36

We did too. Yeah. If anybody has any questions, they can put it in the comments on YouTube or in Spotify. Spotify allows comments, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:44

They do, yes.

SPEAKER_05 53:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

Until next time, happy painting, everybody.

SPEAKER_05 53:49

Happy painting, everybody, and framing.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

And framing, yes.