The Practical Palette Podcast
This is a podcast where artists Tara Will and Marc Anderson explore the world of fine art and representational painting through the lens of philosophy, art history, and their own art-making practices.
The Practical Palette Podcast
Consider Your Audience: The Practical Palette (Featuring Hector Acuna)
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Join Tara, Marc, and their guest Hector Acuna as they discuss the artist/audience dynamic and what it means to be considerate of but not dictated by your viewers.
See Hector's work: https://www.acunaarts.com/
Follow Hector on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hectoracuna.art/
Follow Hector on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOLtmB4k8Qc-Loox0jmDTvw
Tara Will: https://www.tarawill.com/
Marc Anderson: https://mandersongallery.com/
So hopefully you didn't lie about your military history.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which which website did you go to? Who knows?
unknownI'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_01Your OnlyFans? Oh yeah, that's that's my best bio.
SPEAKER_00So we're gonna have fun today.
SPEAKER_01This is already off to get start.
SPEAKER_03Hello, and welcome to the Practical Palette Podcast.
SPEAKER_00I'm Tara.
SPEAKER_03I'm Hector. And I'm Mark. And we'll explore the world of fine art and representational painting through the lens of philosophy, art history, and our own art making practices. Today, Tara and I will be talking with Hector Akuna about the dynamic between artists and their audience. Hi guys.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Mark.
SPEAKER_03Hello, good morning. How is everyone doing today?
SPEAKER_00Good. I'm a little under the weather, so I'm sorry if my voice is a little cracky, so I'll do my best.
SPEAKER_03You've had uh an interesting week so far. Some trees going down in your yard, and we have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it's been, we had to lose a couple big trees that I really loved, but um they're they have a lifespan like a human, you know. They're just dropping really big limbs. And so it was I was like tearing up watching them cut it down, but um I'm tickled by some new light that I'm finding in the yard. So that's that's good.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's really exciting. Uh yeah, you sent me a couple of photos of your your garden, which just the garden alone is absolutely beautiful.
SPEAKER_00So I don't know what's changed with the the new light in there, but well, it gets a lot more light, so I think it's gonna be a little happier actually. So we'll see.
SPEAKER_03Oh, nice, nice. Good opportunity for maybe newer plants to grow in the future.
SPEAKER_00Possibly, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I know very little about gardening, so I'm not gonna pretend, but uh that's uh sad and exciting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. Tara, do you do any painting in your garden or in your yard at all?
SPEAKER_00I actually a friend of mine um was like, let's plant air paint. And I was like, okay, where do you want to go? And she's like, I want to go in your backyard. And I was like, oh, because you know, then you're like, oh now I have to like clean all my crap up and you know, all that kind of stuff. Um, but we had a really fun time doing it, and so I I want to do it more and I want to do it with the kids this summer because I have a couple extra easels. It'd be fun to just take them out there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Nice. Well, uh, we are joined today by the wonderful painter Hector Akuna. So thank you for joining us, Hector. Thanks for having me. Um I'm just gonna jump in and give a little context for who Hector is. Um so uh Hector, you're from Grafton, Wisconsin, or you currently reside in uh Grafton. Uh I've got a I just ripped this off your website, so forgive uh the uh quick and dirty version of this. But uh so you received your your BFA from the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point, where you were a studio art concentration major. Correct. Yeah. Um and then your MFA from Michigan State University. Um after school, you've won numerous awards and fellowships uh from invitational shows, juried shows around the country, uh Plenair and otherwise. Um most recently, and congratulations by the way, uh you won Best of Show at Cedarberg Plenair. Thanks. Um last year you won honorable mention and artist choice at uh Door County. Is that correct? Um that I'm going off my memory. I didn't have that one written down. Um let's see. Oh, uh Plenair magazine named Hector, one of the top three artists to watch in 2022, and awarded him the M. Stephen Doherty Breakthrough Artist of the Year uh in 2023. Um Hector is represented by Kim Storage Gallery in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Edward Orchard Galleries in Fish Creek, Wisconsin, Pink Llama Gallery in Cedarburg, Wisconsin, and Burnt Siena Gallery in Galena, Illinois. And I believe you have a show coming up at the Kim Storage Gallery this September.
SPEAKER_02Uh October.
SPEAKER_03October. Um that will be a one to check out if you happen to be in the Milwaukee area. Um as I said, your uh your studio is located in Grafton, Wisconsin, where you host private classes and portrait commissions. Um and I also saw a line in your artist statement, which I absolutely loved. Um, I've acquired a belief, uh I've acquired the belief that above all it is a careful way of looking which gives purpose and meaning to my art. Uh there's there's a lot wrapped into that, and I really, really enjoyed that. So welcome, Hector.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Thank you both so much for the invitation.
SPEAKER_03Uh, maybe before we actually get into our conversation. So we're gonna be talking about the dynamic between uh artist and their audience, uh artist and viewer, however you want to say that. Uh but Hector, do you want to give us a Cliff Notes version of you as an artist? Like um, you know, aside from the the bullet points that I just kind of outlined?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah, I'll try my best here. Um so I kind of over the last five or six years have gone through this like artist identity crisis a little bit. I mean, through the intro that you just gave, I was really fortunate to study art um uh in school, both at the undergrad and graduate level. And both of those experiences were very heavily rooted in a studio practice. Um and just by happenstance, my my wife Megan uh was hired at the Cedarberg High School um five, six years ago now, and um in preparation to move here. This is the opposite of a Cliff Notes version. But uh just really quickly, I fell into plan air painting uh competitive events, um, just because of the fact that we moved to Cedarberg and that sort of snowballed into this beautiful community and network of opportunities for representational or non-representational painting, but based, you know, in observation in an observational practice. So today I would call myself an observational painter, whether I'm working indoors or outdoors. And there was a student that I had at a workshop a couple of summers ago who helped connect this for me, uh which I'm still very thankful for. She said, because I was talking about this whole identity crisis thing, and she said, I think you're an observational painter, whether you're painting your exterior world or your interior world. And the light bulb went off. And I'm like, I think that's what I've been waiting to hear or to find. Um, so in a nutshell, I think that's how I would describe my work. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because it's funny because when you're a painter, people immediately say, Well, what kind are you? Almost like you have to like stick yourself in a specific box, right? It's like I don't know what kind I am. Like, what what day did you ask me? It could be different, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it feels like, and I don't know if this is just for myself, but it feels like I'm committing to some sort of future practice every time a conversation like that happens. Like it's like, okay, is this what's expected now for the rest of my process and career? And you know, how much wiggle room and play is there gonna be, you know, in terms of where my work is gonna be seen or the community that's gonna interact with it. So yeah, I can relate to that.
SPEAKER_00I like the second piece of the community that reacts to it because it kind of segues into what we're talking about today. Um because it's interesting that people I think artists generally, and you can argue here, this is like you know, open combo. Um I think there's this emphasis on um the self a lot of times, and there's this almost um forgetfulness toward the viewer. And I think a lot of times they forget that it's a conversation, right? It's like I'm the the purpose of creating is to say something and share it. And in sharing it, you open this kind of conversation with the viewer. Um and I think a lot of artists, they either don't think about the viewer at all, or they so heartily want to dictate what the viewer feels or experiences that they try with all their might to um control that narrative. And it's it's really interesting to me because I think as an artist and a viewer, because I'm both, um first, I don't like to be told what to think, you know, nobody really likes that, I don't think. But um secondly, it's something that I am thinking about when I'm painting. I'm thinking, like, oh my God, like this thing is so cool that I want you to feel this thing that I feel and I want to share it with you. And it's your right to like it, hate it. I mean, I've been told I draw worse than a monkey. I've been told I'm not an artist, I've been told all kinds of things. And all of those things are valid, right? Um, that's not exactly what I wanted them to think. But um, you know, I don't get to control that narrative. It's kind of like a kid. It's like I made this thing and it goes off in the world and it it exists on its own, and I don't get to control that narrative anymore. Um, and so I think for me personally, um, as an artist, it's something that I think about. But I think a lot of artists either are not thinking about it at all, or they're trying so hard to dictate it through these lengthy uh philosophical titles that are trying to introduce commentary that doesn't exist in their work, or um they just have completely dismissed it altogether and forgotten why they're even painting the thing they're painting. Hot take, by the way. Oh, we say that to Mark. He's like yeah. Agree, agree or disagree with that sentiment.
SPEAKER_03I think I would I would agree uh for the most part. I don't really have much to quibble over. Um it's interesting. Well, okay, so you giving validity to uh you know some of those less savory uh comments in the in the that conversation. Um yeah, those are valid, but they're valid for that one person because that that person saying that thing does not I mean, maybe if they say it out loud, it might influence the way someone else is perceives your work. And I guess that also becomes part of the conversation, but um yeah, I don't know. It's um it's an interesting thing for sure.
SPEAKER_02Uh Hector, you you have any thoughts on I think uh 100% agree with what Tara said. I think I've noticed this too. Like there is this, and maybe more so in my experience in the studio side of my experiences, um, where you're, you know, sometimes with gallery shows they want a statement, or if you're applying to a juried show, like you're also applying with this sort of written component to the work. And it can get really tempting to want to, like, like you're saying, Tara, sort of dictate what the audience's interpretation is going to be of the work. And I feel like as you're both talking, it's like there's this idea of success that kind of is wrapped into that too. That like, I wonder sometimes if as artists, it's easy to feel like it's a game, it becomes a game of like, well, did they understand what I was trying to do? And if they did, does that mean it was successful? And I think that's where art kind of loses its magic a little bit, where we miss out on this opportunity for diverse connection or communication or you know, learning through someone else's perspective on especially our own idea or our own, you know, um message that we're sharing visually with someone, we then learn because it's a different perspective, right? And I think there is this sort of weird, I don't know if it's a Western thing. I'm not versed enough in art history to know like where this stems from, but I don't think maybe this is a like a little mini hot take. I don't know if like certain competitions or reality shows are helping this problem, you know, like the landscape artist of the year. I mean, I don't want to name too many organizations, but I feel like as an audience, sometimes you watch this sort of media where it gets turned into this like, was it successful, was it not successful? But we don't really talk about why we feel like something is successful or not. Especially as an artist, I think that's really important to sit and think about that. And um, you know, I don't know if it's like required for every artist to feel like they have to sit down and go, okay, what am I doing? Every day they get in the studio, like, what am I trying to do? And like have it all connected. Um, because I think we also, I would assume, probably agree that there's benefit to like showing up and being like, I don't know what I'm gonna make. I don't know what I'm going to end up feeling at the end of this process. Um, but yeah, so as you're just bringing that up, that those are the things that kind of come to mind right away that it definitely, I don't know. I'll just end it there, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think, you know, success is subjective, right? Like, you know, um, well, all of it's subjective. And it's funny because I was talking to my girls um and we were talking about music. Well, I was talking to Anna last night. We were driving in the car, and um I said, Yeah, your other sister doesn't like this music that I like that I that we were listening to. And she goes, you know, music's subjective, it moves different people different ways. And I was thinking, that's great. I'm glad that you think that at 14 years old. Um because you're capable of thinking, A, because a lot of people, again, I don't think are thinking about it. Um, but I think that the idea that you brought up, Hector, of success is kind of interesting because, like, what is success? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, is success like I sat down and I set out to say this thing and I felt like I said it well. Do you know what I mean? Is that to me that would be like the definition of the success of the painting? But there are paintings that I've done that I think are just not that strong or didn't convey quite what I meant or what I intended. And people really resonate with those too. And so it's funny because it's like stuff that I've done that I don't like, other people like sometimes. So it's it's not, you know, my narrative to control their connection to a piece, you know. It's I think it's kind of interesting.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I think oh sorry.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh just on the idea of success. Um, yeah, if we've got our own, like of course, you want a certain amount of internal validation. Like, uh okay, I know I did well with that painting. I said what I had to say, I said it in an interesting way. Um I I feel like sometimes if we're left to our own devices stuck in our studios, not receiving outside feedback, it can become this little echo chamber, this little silo that we live in. But I you also have to be careful about what feedback you're taking in, I think. Um whether that's you know, uh awards and words from a judge at a show or um uh the sale of a painting. I mean, I've sold some pretty terrible paintings, and that's not feedback I really want to be taking it. Um I won't say specifically which paintings those were, but um uh you know what I mean though. Like uh it's it's kind of tricky, and I think you have to I don't I don't know that there needs to be a set definition for how you define success in that way because it's kind of a moving target based on depending on the day uh or how you're feeling or you know, any number of things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think like just the growth of each artist is gonna look different for all of us too. And I think that I don't know, like that that idea of of um sort of protecting the interpretation or controlling the interpretation, it can also I don't know, I feel like it also sets us up for the next work in a weird way sometimes of like, well, I just made this thing, now if I want to do this thing that's in left field, is that okay? Is that you know, I I think there's we live in this very like branded marketed world, like Terry, you were just talking about that, that there is this sort of emphasis on the artist and the self and um what how they relate to the work? And it, you know, there is this whole other conversation that gets brought up sometimes of like how do we manage or um navigate the relationship between the artist and their work as an audience member, right? And it's like what what taps us into their process? Is it because of part of their personal story or where they're from or where they currently are based, um, or someone else that we know mutually that that becomes the entry into then the work itself, or is it just like something about the formal qualities of the work that they're producing or creating? And um, as an artist, sometimes it's like the I don't know if it's healthy to overthink that stuff. It's probably not. Um, but there is sometimes it feels like there's this expectation that you have to figure out like how does your work relate back to you as the maker, as the artist. And um I don't know, I don't know where I was going with that, but it can feel daunting, I think, at times. Um or like, you know, like there's this pressure to have this nice elevator pitch where anything you've ever made can fit in this one paragraph uh to someone that you're you're interacting with.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, because if you told people describe your life in a paragraph, like that'd be pretty hard, right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's like if you're doing the same thing. And it's funny because I was having this argument with an artist because I was looking at their work and they were coming up with these very um first of all, sorry, tangent. Um, I had a mentor once who said to me, as an artist, you are either inviting a viewer to fight or to dance, right? And I really love that idea because that's that's true. I think there are people who create work for shock value to kind of shock you and fight with you. Um and there are people who are I I considered myself more of a dance kind of I hate dancing in real life, but um this idea that you know you're engaging with a viewer and you're you you are kind of in a way controlling that experience with what you're giving them. Um but it's interesting, and maybe people will think you're fighting and you're really dancing or whatever, but the idea that you know you come with a uh purpose, or else why do it? Just take a picture of whatever it is you're looking at. You know.
SPEAKER_02One of my mentors in grad school, uh Benjamin Duke, he's still a he's a professor at Michigan State University, and uh he used to say, like, art can become this vehicle for the encounter. And I really like that sort of definition that like the viewer, like we're all just living our lives, and we stumble into these works of art, and who we are in that moment is such an important part of that interaction or encounter with the work. And I like that you're talking about this like uh responsibility for the artist to realize that and to know that we are partially responsible for what's inside of that encounter that occurs. And I don't, I don't, I never read um like Deleuze and some of those theorists, but I think I if I'm remembering correctly, I think it also stems back to some of that uh you know philosophy. But um I just liked Benjamin Duke's sort of um you know encapsulation of like the encounter and how the work of art sort of fits fits into that. So yeah, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_03So uh putting all of that into some context, um how do you feel your responsibility as that artist uh comes into play when you're say at a plain air event? Um so we we were talking about you know branding and uh you know artist identity and all that kind of stuff. I feel like that gets uh both complicated and more um what's the word for it? Also kind of like manufactured at a plain air event, you know what I mean? Um yeah, how how does um I mean your work has changed, uh I mean, just in the few years I've known you, um, and you're constantly experimenting and kind of I don't know, why why don't you talk about your your plain air experience, Hector?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um yeah, I mean I you're you're you're you know you're totally right that there is a lot of experimentation that I've um pursued in the the niche of plain air. Um and I um I don't know, I think I think the events there there's a lot of great benefits that I I've listened to all of your episodes. I know you guys have covered plain air painting. events and um I've been a big fan of of your podcast so far too so just wanted to throw that out there but um uh with the plan air events I feel like you know obviously you you know you're going into this let's say weekend or week of time that's almost like a pressure cooker experience where you like you you're expected to show something at the end of that time whether it's a weekend or a week and that can motivate at least for me it's like that's super motivating to just be like okay what do I want to share with this audience and you know one of the things I I was kind of sort of talking about this a little you know earlier that like I kind of fell into plan air painting competitions. Fortunately I had a lot of plan air painting experience uh at in in undergrad um up in Stevenspoint we had a summer plan air painting class that was offered and I took that twice um in my like second or my last two years of school and they were month long painting classes in the summer and then plan air became this thing that I would just do to get out of the studio in the summers when it was super nice out in the Midwest. And um then the events felt like an opportunity to meet people um meet other artists maybe meet collectors maybe meet a gallerist or something it just sounded like a a smart move um initially and then after a few events I started to realize like wow each one of these is like its own mini little not residency per se but like you know pressure cooker experience and I liked that idea as something that you could go into and be like what do I want to what do I want to see or what do I want to explore um either formally visually or conceptually or in terms of place because I mean obviously with plain air you're outside um on location and location can have so much meaning to your process and that's something that in recent years has become more interesting to me this idea of like the material meaning of what I'm looking at or what I'm inhabiting as a painter. So then visually I feel like well then I can just experiment more visually and end up in a place that maybe feels to me fresh and exciting. So I guess in recent years I would say that one of the main themes I've been exploring is like really playing with the picture plane and dividing the picture plane and almost thinking of like sequencing or narrative as an element to combine multiple subjects together. That's where my head is currently at when I think of my plan air work. But um yeah definitely it hasn't been that long since I've been doing these events. It's relative but um you know each one of these events kind of starts to um it starts to encourage me to think of like well what have I already done or what's something that feels slightly different um from past bodies of work um that that I've made at these events. So I don't know it's a lot of rambling but um I mean it's oh go ahead.
SPEAKER_03I was just gonna say I really like that framing of thinking about uh a plain air event as a residency. I mean that that's never really occurred to me that like of course we're creating a body of work when you're there but I don't always think about it like this has to be cohesive. Like for me it's cohesive because I have consistent framing across the pieces. You know like that's basically the through line um which actually we should have had you on for our framing episode last time too but we can get into that later maybe that was a but no I I really like that the way you're thinking about it. And I I that's very evident in your work especially like Dor County this last year. You had such a uh a unique perspective on uh I mean it was just a a very it was a nice body work I'll just say that which is why it won artist choice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and it was different it pushed some limits like there were there I'm I'm not in any way insulting your work but there was this almost level of discomfort or like confusion like well wait what is this you know it's like something new and different and it's not I don't see that as a negative thing. I see that as a positive thing actually um I just didn't want it to come off negative but um because I was like what like what is this like this is something that I'm not used to and it's like how do I feel about you know you had to like stop and ask yourself like and then I'm like I kind of like it like I'm getting the feel I've I feel like and again don't quote me there was one I think with the ice cream shop that was like two smalls on the left and one bigger one on the right maybe like longer and there was something about when you're talking about you know um creating a narrative like what better way than almost having like a progression of each like element of this place to kind of put pull them together into like the vibe of that spot. And think of like how many times has that ice cream place been painted or I think it's ice cream or maybe it's like hot dogs or something I don't remember. I think it had like a red and white awning or something like that. And so you think of how many times that's been done and it's been done kind of the same way every time and then you're given this new fresh outlook on you know like wait what like what is this you know and to me it was really exciting to see something that was fresh and different and did have a narrative element to it that it was like well no like one painting isn't going to quite sufficiently tell this story. I'm gonna break it into three for you like three and one it's like you're getting like a a super deal you know so it was neat to see that in that context because like I said I haven't ever seen anybody do anything quite like that. Like I've seen you know little squares or vignettes of things kind of um repeated shapes and things like that. But to me it was a very exciting approach to kind of say three things at the same time you know it's it it was really interesting I thought.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. Yeah I mean I I can't take credit for I mean I think all artists are just sponges like we just take in things and then we become this conduit for whatever comes out and um I feel privileged um you know having years gone to like studio art programs and classes um with really great professors and peers who just raised questions and ideas that I would have never thought of in a vacuum or in this sort of you know um private uh experience. But anyways um I think like so because of that like I I kind of came into plain air with like this sort of studio background of of paint like definition of painting and the visual languages of painting and um some of my favorite painters kind of live in this hybrid space between like a studio conceptual practice and an observational perceptual practice. And I I've always really loved that like little um sort of hybrid overlap because there's still a lot of intent and meaning and thoughtfulness paired with like craft and um technique and all of these things that we love as painting nerds, right? So it's like it it kind of helped shape um the way that I approached the events and um it's funny I've had a lot of artist friends over the last few years be like how did you how'd you come up with this and I'm like I just stole this from somebody over here or like I'm I love this person's you know compositional uh practice and this person's palette or like this person's surface quality or the scale of this artist's work. And it's like all these things just kind of kept posing like hey don't forget about this don't forget about this don't forget about this as options. And um so this is where it's like and I you know I do feel like experimenting comes at a cost like there's like indoor kind of last year I went into the show being like this could totally bomb like nobody maybe like no one's gonna like any of these paintings. But the thing that was really the best part of the exp that experience last summer was the outcome of the show like compounded with the fact that I really loved the work that I made last year. And that's not always the case for me like sometimes I'm like I don't like most of these paintings. Maybe there's two out of eight or ten that I'm like really excited about but most of the work I made indoor count last year I was really excited about. So you know when it when things align like it just reminded me like that's why I should just do the thing that really is interesting or exciting to me and then let everyone else decide if it's you know um I don't know if it's something that they enjoy as well. So but yeah I mean that's where I think coming into these events and into like the context of plain air um I I feel fortunate that like some of the rules that I adopted came from outside of the community and um I think there's just an inherent like like it makes sense that people would go oh this feels fresh or this feels different and it's like I think there's just more and more overlap that's gonna be happening um within plain air. At least I hope so. I think it's I think it's healthy for everybody.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I hope so too because it gets a little repetitive so it's nice to see fresh things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I was gonna say I think it it completely recontextualizes the whole show having work like that because it's not this yeah it can get a little stiff a little too many postcard paintings um which uh like we've talked about before are kind of important in some way to those shows because they are uh fundraisers for organizations and stuff like that but that's not we're not artists because we want to paint postcards for the most part uh I I don't think for us three I'll speak for us three um and nothing against people who paint postcards that's do what do what brings you joy but walk in that back mark all right I gotta stand behind a hot take no more postcard paintings anyway no I I uh agree with both of you like I think it's it's good to have that uh experimentation and something just a little different in the in the shows I say as a a very traditional plane air painter.
SPEAKER_00Sorry Mark I interrupted you I like that idea too of um saying that like you only liked typically two or three of ten paintings let's say over the week and um that this one was um a much higher percentage or all of them or whatever. And I'm often telling students that I'm like you know you start with this like lower percentage of what you would consider a success and then that number starts to kind of flip in the opposite direction, right? It's like the first couple times you go out like yeah like I only liked a couple things and then like the more you do it you start to like more of them. And um I was just thinking as you were talking about like there were some paintings that I did that over the years that I was really sad that someone bought because I was like it hadn't quite everything happened so fast in plenaire and it's like it doesn't quite like it's like a dream. It's like it's gone come and goes and you didn't quite remember like what it was you were in love with about it. Um and it and it's kind of sad to have some of that leave. I don't know if that makes any sense but um and so there was a planner event and I did a piece and I just loved it so much that I was like you know what it's probably the best piece I've done all week. I can't ever get it back. So I didn't even put it in the show at all because I was like it's mine. I I'm not giving that to anyone else like it just resonated with me in a special way. And so to me I do think that there's some pieces that are much easier to let go and but they're it because and someone said oh what an elegant problem to have Tara like you're you did a painting and you did it fast and you sold it for lots of money and you know wow wow and I'm thinking no like there is this um learning element that each time we do a painting it something about it kind of does kind of get added to the Rolodex in the back of your brain and you're thinking oh that worked really well that didn't work well um why did that piece connect with me in a different way and so there is kind of a sadness for me anyway to um lose some of that knowledge it's it sounds very weird but does it do either of you connect with that at all?
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah I mean I don't think it sounds weird at all. I think um because I yeah I totally relate to what you're saying and I think in a weird way it's like the artwork becomes the artifact of that experience and you know it that experience is full of all these different things that we're going through and whether it's an emotional thing or it's like a uh a memory thing it maybe we were reminded of some special thing from earlier in our lives like the painting can start to represent all of that to us. And it is hard to let go of those discoveries or those breakthroughs um whether it's in terms of process or for like a personal significant reason. The one thing I I will add to that though is like there are some paintings where I'm like I really love this painting. And then I'm kind of nervous I'm like well what if nobody buys it okay maybe that'd be good if they don't buy it and then somebody buys it and I'm like all right somebody bought it and then I'm like oh but I love that painting and then it's like the collector this doesn't happen very often to me but the collector sometimes will come up and be like we love this painting this is our favorite place that has all of these moments and like history and there's all of this connection that we feel when we look at the painting and then that kind of eases it for me a little bit because it's like okay maybe this painting wasn't for me after all you know maybe it was for this family or this this one person or something. And that is one of the other cool things about plan a events is like it it connects you to people that you would otherwise net probably never connect with who you're just a painting away from this like shared connection between the two of you. And whether it's in the gallery or while I'm making the work like I'm I've been working on some of these paintings for the show in October it's a two-person show I I forgot to say that earlier um at Kim Storage Gallery with Andy Paxos who's a Chicago Plan air painter um excited to meet him and see his work. But I've been painting locally here in Grafton and it's been really fun because some of the residents will come out and see me painting and then start sharing stories if they've lived here for generations and you learn so much about what you're painting and looking at and just about where you are you know physically in the world that you wouldn't have access to I think otherwise uh without that painting element. So yeah it's a weird but like you're saying it's just like super fast experience that I mean for me I come out of those events just exhausted physically emotionally you know mentally um and it's it's a good feeling but yeah it takes a while to unpack all of those things that we just experienced um both in and out of like the the studio or painting practice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah when I'm done uh well what I used to do all the time because I was doing a lot of events and traveling by myself and I would just get so like emotionally drained from painting that um I'd always come back to the room and I'd look for impractical jokers which is like the dumbest TV show in the planet but I would just sit there and I would laugh so hard I would cry because I just needed like that endorphin boost or something. So I would like go out and like paint these beautiful paintings and come back and like okay I need something really funny to like make me laugh because I'm just like I I just need something you know it's so stupid but it always was like perfect it was like the icing on the cake like at the end of a long day to just sit and like laugh so hard that you cry because it's so stupid like it was perfect.
SPEAKER_03That sounds really dumb but that resonates me too yeah I was just gonna say as you're saying that I'm like oh yeah I find like the dumbest YouTube videos and just kind of like fall asleep to that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah funny so another hot take Mark I don't know where you were going exactly sorry but how do you feel about titles Mark? What do you think about titles?
SPEAKER_03I think uh Plan air events Plan air painters uh could do a lot better with their titles uh I think titles are important um I they can be um it's it's like a frame it's adding context um to a a painting or a piece of work now I'm not gonna be too uh high and mighty or soapboxy about it um but I get so tired of seeing last light on the field uh or you know last light anything and maybe that's just uh a criticism that's specific to my tastes I don't know uh what do you guys think?
SPEAKER_02No I I agree I think a title definitely is taken into consideration you know from the viewer's perspective and this comes back to like that responsibility a little bit of the artist right and that you know I think it's weird it's like the painting also we give up the interpretation in my opinion to the viewer with our work I think the title kind of is kind of is like wrapped up in that too right it's like a title can mean something very specific to me and maybe it's really ambiguous and um unusual or or really passive to somebody else like maybe it doesn't really hit as hard as it does when I read the title of my own painting but um my favorite titles are the ones that point back to like an interaction or a memory that was part of the process in making the work and those are may it maybe because they're just conveniently offered to me from a local or someone who's on the scene. One of my favorite paintings I'll try to make this a short story uh indoor the first year that we were there um in 2022 Mark and I uh I was doing this painting it's one of the first ones where I was really starting to play with like layering the same sort of thing on in multiple top in multiple ways and I found this window in Fish Creek and I started this painting I put it right in the middle of the canvas and I'm like oh this might not work out but whatever I'm gonna try it. And then as I was painting I met this young college student Eddie who was working the summer job on one of the boat tours I think his family has been in Door County for generations excuse me and we're talking and I'm I'm painting he kept like leaving and coming back and leaving and coming back and I got to know him pretty quickly. And one of the times he was talking to me this this other local artist Emmett Johns who I hadn't met yet is like a really well known landscape and portrait painter in Door County was walking towards us with his daughter and Eddie is like he's telling this story and he stops mid-story and like sees the artist and he's like hang on a second I think I know this guy and he's like are you Emmett is your name Emmett and he's like yeah he's like I think you painted my triplet siblings and I's portrait when we were like four years old. So I'm painting and I all of a sudden I'm like hearing this I'm like you wait I'm like you know this guy and you're a triplet and he's an artist and I was just like too many new things all at the same time that my mind just exploded and um so that painting like I was at my host's house later on that week and I'm like laying in bed and this I don't know if you guys do this but like sometimes if there's a painting where you're just like I I like kind of where it's going but you can see it going in all these different directions like it's hard to fall asleep sometimes during those events. And this idea kind of clicked that week where I was like the triplets like what if I did three windows on this painting and like I I could go back at different times a day. So it became this like morning afternoon evening nocturne sort of collection of the same window and the title was Eddie and the twins because that's what he said that they were called because he had two sisters that were triplets and they looked more identical and everybody just called them Eddie and the twins and those are the moments where I'm like I wish every painting had a story like that or like a title could just be like given to you like that. But yeah I think I don't know I think a title is definitely something that can pique the interest of the viewer or become an entry point into someone's interpretation of the work. But I don't know I think for I've I've always sort of gravitated more towards like the ambiguous side of painting as opposed to like the really quick literal side of painting. In my opinion I mean someone else might look at my work and say the opposite which is totally fine too but um titling I think also kind of fits into that for me too where it's like oh this feels very obscure you know and I like that as a title. So anyway
SPEAKER_03Eddie and the twins sounds like a good band name.
SPEAKER_00Benny and the Jets, yeah. Um, well, what's interesting about what you said I've I found interesting, you said it's the artist's responsibility to title things. Um and it almost is like a leash or like a tether to your painting, right? It's like you haven't quite let it go because you're gonna like tell somebody what you think it should be called, like you named it, like a pet. Um and to me, part of that, part of the problem I have with that is that I don't, I don't really care at all about titles, period. I don't, I don't care about them. Because if the painting is doing its job, hot take here, if the painting is doing its job, I don't need to tell you anything about it, right? Because there's it's a visual language, like it's not a literary language. I'm not writing you a story. Um, and so to me, when you put these like hefty, elaborate titles on paintings to try and say the thing that you failed to say in your painting, I'm just like unimpressed. I'm like, yeah, you didn't do that here. You know what I mean? And so to me, it's almost this um paint titles, there are ones like your twins. Um, I agree totally. Like there are those select few. But for the most part, and even if, you know, even with that context of that story, which was a great story, um, I would see that title as a viewer and I'd be like, what the hell does that mean? Right. Because I'm like, I don't know who Eddie is, and I didn't hear that story about the twins. And, you know, so I do think while it may have some kind of connection to us, um, I don't think that we should try to use it to dictate how a viewer feels about something. Does that make sense? So it it is like our almost like naming our pet, right? Like the thing that gets to go and live somewhere else. Um, but I feel like a lot of people like name things, these deep philosophical things, and the work just does not at all represent that. And I'm thinking, like, and we go back to that idea of success. I'm like, well, you failed because I didn't get that at all, you know? And so I think these lofty, um, ambitious philosophical titles are just a bunch of nonsense personally. And I'm a philosophy major. I love that shit, but I'm just like, it's it's like it's disingenuous to me to try and tack something on when you hadn't had it in your head the whole time. And then it's like, oh, it's this lofty idea. After it's just like an afterthought to me.
SPEAKER_03But you know what that that really feels like is um the score, like a film score where the the music, let's say it's a suspenseful moment in a uh movie, and so it's really suspenseful music, but the the visual isn't like like the the sound is telling you what to feel without like the visual part. This is like more specific to bad movies, where the like the writing and the acting hasn't gotten you there, but the music is saying you should be scared now, or or these two are about to fall in love, so get ready for that, you know. Um it's like uh telegraphing your punch is a little bit too much, you know. Um, so I I get on board with that side of it. Um but uh in the same vein, like a good score can really complement a movie or a show, or or like have you ever been watching a um like a sitcom or uh some TV show, and you know you know where they spent their music budget because they found the perfect song for that moment, and you're like never ever ever think about that, Mark. Really? Am I the only one?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I think about that. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So funny. Well, and maybe that's why also like maybe that's why to me it doesn't resonate that way. Do you know what I'm saying? Even the fact that I'm kind of like, I either feel it or I don't feel it in the movie. I don't even think of the breakdown of that. But you said something are interesting too, Mark. You said um that the title's like a frame that is just kind of finishes it off in a way. And when you think of a frame, yes, it finishes the edges, it makes it hangable, it makes it finished and polished. Um, but it's such a small percentage of the experience. Do you know what I mean? And so when you try and take that and you let's say you put, you know, a five-inch frame on a postage stamp, you're kind of like, what the heck are you saying? Like, I don't get it. You know, so there is that, I like that comparison too, because it kind of I think reiterates this idea that if the if the emphasis is on the title so hard and you haven't successfully explained why or given the viewer a feeling of that, to me, I'm just like, yeah, you're trying too hard. You know, it just doesn't work for me as a viewer.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna I don't know if this is gonna contradict you, but like one of my favorite titles I've ever seen um is it was uh the painter uh David Sheffitz. Sheffitz, you guys know the painter? Um, I don't know if I pronounced his last name right. Fantastic uh painter. He did this still life uh years ago. It was in a red onion with a knife stuck in it, and there was some like little black ooze oozing out of it. And the title was What Went Down on Tuesday? And I'm like, that's hilarious and like vague and mysterious, and like I don't know. I just I absolutely loved it. Like it it I wanted to buy it, and at the time I like it was for sale, and I it was like just out of reach for me. Uh and uh but I I could have made it work and I wish I would have. But anyway, um missed opportunity. But that's a situation where like the painting made the or the the title made the painting for me. It was a good painting, but other I just would have seen a silly, still not a silly still life, but a still life that was a little quirky. And uh, but with that that title, I was like, oh yeah, that's that's awesome. That's so funny.
SPEAKER_00I don't well know if you would have felt the same, but I remember Tim Kelly, I love Tim Kelly. He he did a painting in I think it was Florida, I'm pretty sure. And he did this beautiful nocturne, right? And then he glazed over the painting a picture of Casper the Ghost, and it was so faint, and Tim is so accurate. I mean, his draftsmanship is just incredible, and so it was so faint, and I was like getting hives because I didn't think this collector saw Casper the Ghost in the middle of the painting that they were buying because it was so faint, like it was just like a glaze, and he titled it something like Eyes a Scared or something, I can't remember, something like that. And I was thinking, oh my god, like I I was like, I was stressed because I thought they didn't see that, Tim. And like, what are you doing? You know? And so, um, which is hilarious because like if you saw that painting and you didn't see Casper the ghost in it, you'd be like, What the hell does that title mean? And then like you see Casper and you're like, oh, okay, like I get it, because he's a ghost. Like, um, but I think it's funny what you're saying about the onion and the and the title. Like again, like to me, I'd be, I'd be it wouldn't make that, it wouldn't sway me that hard. But everybody's different. But no, no, I'm just saying, like, to me, like, if it was supposed to be some like satirical, like funny thing, like the painting would have done it. Like, but I get what you're saying. It's just, it's just, you know, everybody's hit differently by things.
SPEAKER_03I I don't want to oversell it. I don't think it's like a genius title or anything like that. I just it really struck me, and I'm like, that's that's great. I I enjoyed it very much. So well, that's good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Some of some of that too, I wonder, is like, is it a chance for the artists to show their personality a little bit and how they relate to their own work? Um and it, I don't know. It's like there's so many subjective opportunities as the artist to be like, well, do I show more of myself? Do I keep myself reserved? Or do I, you know, at what time is is it appropriate, or for which painting is it appropriate? And as you were both were talking too, it it's it's interesting because like the framing idea or like the title kind of becomes like a layer in the interpretation, I think, that starts to kind of pull someone in in a direction potentially, whether that's towards an understanding or maybe away from an understanding in a like in a weird way. Um, but that I don't know, to me, it's like that can be interesting, right? To to sort of encourage someone to uh investigate you know the the written side of the work. And um it's also to me, I I see the title kind of in the frame and your neighbor's work on the wall and the shape of the gallery and the lighting, like all of that contributes to the encounter that the viewer has with the work, right? So it's like I guess you know, earlier when I was like, there was kind of a responsibility, it's like because we don't get to control most of that other stuff, right? So the title becomes this, you know, yeah, it's like there's just an opportunity there for the artist to decide, like, how do you want to and a bad is the worst word to use, but like how do you want to package your painting in a weird way? Um, or just add a layer into you know, in that moment that someone's gonna view your work and interpret your work.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, there's an artist here in Maryland who is an abstract artist, and he did a show, and he called the painting the seven faces or something, the eight faces, the nine faces, I don't know how many faces. And he had everybody coming up to him and saying, I saw every face. I saw all seven faces, I saw this one here, and I saw that one there, and I saw this one here. And at the end, he just like giggled to himself. I'm like, Why are you laughing? He's like, There's no faces in that painting, right? At all. So, and it was completely non-objective, like abstract art, but uh to me, it just like again goes to show like he's dictating that viewer's experience, right, in a very specific way by suggesting that they should be searching for something that isn't there. You know, that kind of goes back to that dancer fight. Maybe joke should be added in there, um, with like Casper and Seven Faces. But um, you know, it's just interesting to think of the weight that that can put on a viewer. And I think too, like if there was some like apocalypse and all the words disappeared and the painting somehow existed somewhere, like does the title carry that much weight? I don't know. It's just something I think about, you know.
SPEAKER_02You don't have to, yeah, no, that to me that's a super interesting story because I guess in my, I don't know, it to me it sounds like it's almost like a political thing then as an artist. It's like I wonder, I start to wonder, like, you know, do we do some artists, I wonder, like, view the exhibition as this, you know, sort of um exchange, right? Of like, what do I hope, what am what am I hoping to get out of this exchange? I'm giving this work of art, you know, what do I hope to get back? Is it is it um related to the context of, let's say, abstract painting, right? Because I think we've all heard people say, like, oh, my kid could make that painting, or I could have made that painting with my eyes closed, or something. And it's just like there's this skipping of like the process and the history and the context of what brought the artist to that particular work in that particular gallery. And I I could imagine as an abstract painter, sometimes being like, I'm just sick of people like thinking that there's nothing to, you know, or like that you don't you can't see anything, right? So I wonder, like maybe that was I don't know, like I just yeah, I guess I wonder sometimes, like as a as an abstract painter, could that be could that become the thing that you're um I don't know, searching for in your in your work in terms of the exhibition side of of being a painter?
SPEAKER_00Like it being like a live performance, you know?
SPEAKER_02Kind of, yeah, like yeah, like this political conceptual interaction. Like maybe that becomes the work, you know, and then the the painting is sort of just like the tool or the vehicle to get to that point. I don't know. I'm re maybe I'm reading into it too much, but it's interesting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I thought it was interesting.
SPEAKER_03And in that specific context, if it's uh like the audiences then himself and I guess Tara, like or the the audience is participating in the work, but they don't know the full scope of the the narrative or the all that. Um which is interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was very strange to me, but yeah, that's it from it it it reminds me of a story of um a piece uh so um just this idea of like duping the audience was something that as a grad student there was uh like a small uh second year show that we were expected to do, and a lot of the work that I had made for that show was kind of about duping, and which stemmed from like experiences I had in my like everyday life of like being miss sort of interpreted by my communities that I was living in. Um and uh I don't want to get like too political, but for that particular show, like I kind of was interested in just by picking up on other people's work too, like this this idea that you could use the format of the exhibition to dupe the audience in a way. So the show was called Super Duper, and there were all these pieces, like mixed media installation, painting, sculpture pieces. And one of these pieces was this like photo wall triptych piece, and there was um a set of like deer antlers that I found hiking around in Michigan that I cleaned up. My wife allowed me to bring it home and I cleaned it up and put it on a little piece of wood and put that on the wall. And then I had found this sombrero that I had spray painted orange, like blaze orange, and I took this image offline and of this hunter like posing with a deer, and I photoshopped my head with this sombrero in the photo. So I created this like false moment, this like artifact of a false history. And I had people in the art building coming up to me, like, you really hunt with a sombrero? It's like I don't even hunt at all, you know, and it's like it started to like it became this weird, and I feel guilty a little bit because you're like, you're tricking your audience intentionally. Like that's kind of mean to do that, but it kind of revealed that there's a there's a power to the gallery, right? Like people walk into the gallery and they're everything they see or read it becomes real, or like that's a very general statement, but I think there's it just there's a legitimacy about those white walls that some artists like, I think that becomes the work or like the arena for the work at times. My plain air work, I wouldn't say, is is similar to that, but you know, just what we were talking about, it reminded me of like this sort of duping component that painting and and art making and just like the artifice of all of it can can start to create some interesting interactions.
SPEAKER_03That's that's really interesting. Well, first off, great title uh for the show. Um, but the idea of the the gallery space itself, that context giving this heightened sense of importance to the work or uh heightened legitimacy. Um how do you feel that changes the audience perception, say at uh a plain air event? And even the different levels of plain air event, say Cedarberg versus uh Door County versus um I don't know, some other one. You guys have thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00I've never been to Cedarberg. I don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_03Oh well, uh say like a smaller local event. Although Cedarberg's not a small event. Um it's an open event versus like an invitational, you know.
SPEAKER_00I do think Door County does a really nice job, and especially since they get the opportunity to kind of um dictate again with through invitation, um diverse, you know, collection of of work. Um so I do think that there's something to be said for being able to dictate that narrative as as a you know, the gallery gets to do that. Um it's funny, it's like you know, everybody can play golf, right? If they want, but not everybody's a good golfer, you know? And I'm not saying that you can't be the best golfer you can be, but at some point there are limitations, like I'm you know, well, I I have no interest in golf, but um I guess where I'm going with that is that, you know, these varying degrees of levels of of um, I don't want to say prestige, but like, you know, how specific um these shows have been um curated. Um the beautiful thing is everybody can paint outside. I mean it's it's a great, it's like you get exercise, you get some sunshine, you get the tactile qualities of painting, you get, but you know, that doesn't mean you're gonna make a good painting. Um and there's nothing wrong with that. And I think it's funny, I was just watching a thing about David Hockney because he just passed away. RIP, David Hackney. Um and he was saying, you know, that that the art is just a byproduct of the experience, right? And so when you go to a museum or a show, you're just looking at a bunch of byproducts of people's experiences. And some people can just say things more eloquently than other people can. You know what I'm saying? And so it's just this um, it's, you know, the quality piece. Sometimes there's, let's say, like, not like an outsider artist, but like something along those lines where someone who's not classically trained comes along and they have this very maybe quirky perspective or quirky mark making or quirky palette or something. I absolutely adore seeing that because I'm like, oh good, you haven't been tainted. You have this like authentic, like beautiful sense of self. Like I see your humanity in it and it's refreshing to me. And I don't care if it's wrong, and I don't care if it's got weird things about it, like it still resonates with me as a viewer. And so I love to go to like a smaller planner event and see some work that I haven't seen before from someone who's maybe not quite as experienced or traveled into some of these, maybe you know, high-end, like repetitive and oftentimes um places. And I love to see that, you know, new set of eyes. And you know, their byproduct is very different than someone who's very classically trained and restrained. And there could be other adjectives that I won't use. Um I don't want to go that hot of a take. But um, so I think it's I think it's fun to see like the full, and you know, sorry, I'm going really long here, but you know, when you start golfing and you're like so excited about it and you're like, oh my God, I just had so much fun, like I want to do it tomorrow. Like, I think when you're a professional golfer, you're probably like, all right, I'm off to work and I'm working. Um, there is this also something really beautiful about this, you know, fresh eyes, fresh mind, like fresh excitement and hasn't been kind of um, you know, weighted down by, you know, the concepts that we're all kind of, you know, weighted under. Um, and so there's something really lovely about the entire range there. So I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, an event that has fresher blood is necessarily um in any way inferior. It's just almost like there's something really um ref to me refreshing about seeing someone who's new and excited and quirky and you know joyful. I love I love seeing that.
SPEAKER_03I remember okay, so I'm gonna bring back to when I first encountered Hector's work. Um there was I don't know, 2021, maybe. When did you first do Cedarberg? Yeah, 2021. 2021. Okay. So I I wasn't there, but um, I think Antoine Ramar judged that year. Does that sound right? Okay, so um he told me, he's like, uh I I was asking about you know how the how the work was, and he was like, Yeah, pretty good, blah blah blah. There's this new guy, Hector. Gotta keep an eye on him. And uh, and then I think later that summer you had done maybe the state fair planaire. And I I judged that, and you did this killer nocturne of a Eurostand that uh just uh Like, okay, yeah, no, he's he's a real deal. He's like the the guy can paint and he's making interesting choices. Um I just follow the good science. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but I mean even actually at that show, you were doing like fairly traditional type work. It I think maybe it was was it gouache? I can't remember.
SPEAKER_01So it yeah, maybe it was oil. It was oil.
SPEAKER_03I can't remember. Um but all this that is to say, like I I would agree with you, Tara, that um, yeah, seeing those those shows, especially with either up-and-comers or just something new that yeah, that hasn't been beaten down and become cynical uh by doing the the circuit for too long. Um but even within the I don't want to say upper ash lines, but like the shows that we've done for a while, um there are artists that I'm very familiar with that their work, but I'm still excited to see what they produce. Even if it is somewhat consistent, some of those like the people who I look forward to seeing their work, they are still pushing in new directions. Um if it's not with the format, it's with uh new compositions, just trying new subjects, just keeping it interesting for themselves, which then in turn keeps it interest interesting for me, you know, as a viewer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, well, thank you. That's really nice to hear. Um, but I think um I don't know, I've I've always I would say struggled with this ability to kind of dive deep and like in a consistent sort of investigation with my work. And this was a cr, you know, a critique or feedback I got, especially in grad school. It's like it was a three-year program, and by your final year, you're supposed to like make this body of work that's your thesis project, right? And during my whole second year, a lot of the feedback I got was like, all right, you've been doing this, now you need to start to do this, you know. And I just have this pattern of like wanting to constantly find this little area where I can start to do this again, you know. And I I think part of that is earlier influences I had from professors and artists that I just really admired who I would get the same excitement of like, whoa, this is I can't believe they made this is so cool. Like, I love this new thing that they just did. And I can see, like I can see where it relates back to what they were doing the year prior or something, but it feels like they were taking some chances and taking some risks. And one of my two painting professors in school, um, it was Diane Biowaters and Rob Stolzer, Rob Stolzer in his class, I remember, kind of instilled in me this example of like painting can be a discovery. It doesn't have to be like a performance thing where you know this stuff and now you just execute and perform this thing that you know. It can be this space of like scientific exploration, you know, and I was like, cool, that sounds like that's that's me, that's what I want to do. And I've definitely hit some walls over the years, especially, I'll be honest, in plain air, like it's not always like there's not always this like arms wide open, like we love what you're doing, kind of a reaction. Um, thankfully, enough of that has happened that it's you know, it's worked out for me. But um, there are moments where I'm like, I don't know how this is gonna go. And um I uh yeah, I think I, you know, it ebbs and flows over the years of feeling like really excited and really confident to like, I don't know if this is gonna, if this is the right direction for me right now. But I think that's what painting for me is supposed to be. I think it's supposed to be this unpredictable activity, and um kind of like going back to the story about last summer in Dor County. It's like when it's received in a way that you were like hoping for and you were excited, it's like this is the greatest feeling in the world. Like, I hope this happens time and time and time again, knowing it won't happen every time, but that's the beauty of painting, you know, and and um and yeah, it's like so much of what I've heard artists say and what I've talked with other artists about too is this this like this inherent battle to being a painter and an artist is like how do you keep it interesting for yourself, you know, and how do you not fall to this sense of like expectation or rudimentary way of working or thinking? And what's always helped is just looking at artists that I've admired for a long time and people that just sort of show up on on my feed online or in other shows, and like Tara's saying it, like you know, maybe open shows or these higher higher end shows, and just to kind of keep this definition of painting as broad as possible for me, I think is the key to have that healthy, both like physical space but mental space as an artist too. Um, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if that answers any questions, but how do how does that uh uh keeping it as broad as possible? How do you reconcile that with then going into like a plain air event and a judge saying these are these define what good plain air painting is in this show? Do you bump up against that at all? Or or even when you're when you have to judge something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh man, it it's it's painful to be the judge for sure, because you know what it feels like to both, you know, hopefully it's like you know what it feels like to receive recognition, but definitely I think all of us know what it feels like to not get recognized. And you know, I think you're as the judge, you're not privy to how hard it was to find the parking spot or the fact that like the sun, you know, moved in this unexpected way, or you know, or just something that like was part of the experience of the artist. So getting to be a judge, like having those opportunities, has been extremely beneficial just in terms of my own artistic health. Because I can think about all these past shows where I'm like, dang, it didn't work out that time, but now it's like, you know, I just have no idea what was going through the judge's head, you know, and it's like it kind of alleviated some of that pressure as the artist then to be like, well, it really what matters the most is how I feel about my paintings, you know, and like if I'm really proud of them, that will last, right? And I've I've made paintings too where I'm like, oh my, I wish I could go find that painting and swap it out, or like break into this person's house and get my painting back because I'm embarrassed by it, right? Or like you're just like, I just I didn't it wasn't I didn't give it a hundred percent, you know, and I think it's imp I mean we're human, it's impossible, I think, to give a hundred percent every single time you make a painting. So like you gotta forgive yourself, I think it's sometimes at points too. But um, where was I going with this? Um I don't know. I just think that um yeah, being being able to see that side of those events uh really has helped sort of alleviate some of that pressure, and just it's sort of giving me, I think, a little bit more permission to be like, I'm just gonna make what I want to make, you know? And it's like, who cares? You know, hopefully I paid my expenses and made a little bit of money or something. But um, you know, and I also feel like I get excited when I can tell another artist is taking some chances because you don't have to take those chances, right? It's like you can, I think we all know it's like you once you learn your process and your language, like you can just stick to that time and time and time again if you want to. Like that's an option as a painter. I like the painters who are like they're con like you said, Mark, it's like they're constantly pushing their own envelope and allowing risk to come into their process. And then it's like seeing that, it's like, well, I I want to hell, I want to be part of that too, or like I wanna I want to see what can happen if I take some of those chances. Um, even though it can be really scary at times, because you it can feel like, well, this isn't what's expected. And you know, I will say too, I've I've been fortunate that in in our I would say like region or statewide community of plain air painters, like most artists I meet are are really um supportive and encouraging of things I've wanted to make and do. And I owe some of like the success I've had to some of those people too, right? Because like I was just um uh this past week I bought a couple of books that were on sale from Amazon, but I bought a couple of these books, and one was an Antonio Lopez Garcia book that like just recently came out that I was really excited about. The other one is on Soroya, who like he's a name like people talk about all the time. And I because of that, I kind of was like, I don't really, you know, it kind of pushed me away from his work, to be totally honest with you. Hipster Hector, you know, hipster, yeah, that's right. But um, I uh I got one of these books on on him, and I'm I was reading his like bio and stuff, and there was this little paragraph. I was just talking to Megan about it yesterday as I was reading it. I'm like, it it talks about his his aunt and uncle who raised him because his I guess his parents had passed away when he was like two years old, and they took him in and raised him, and they noticed early on that he was naturally interested in art and painting, and they really supported him. And I'm like, this is the this is the thing right here. Like, if they didn't do that, who knows if this book would exist, right? Or if these paintings would exist, right? So as a community of people, like there is so much influence that we all share of like what is supported and what has space to flourish or to grow or to experiment or explore. And um, yeah, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I just I think uh I don't know, I don't know where I was going with that either, but uh this is a question for both of you guys. Um, how do you feel about social media as part of your audience? Uh or is that a segment that gets disregarded, maybe more regard than needed or necessary? Because now they're experiencing the work in a completely different format and you know all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00It's such a love-hate relationship. It's really fun to be inspired by people on there doing cool things. A great way to force yourself to be productive, I think, if you force yourself to guidelines that um require you to post X amount of times for whatever purpose. Um I turn my Instagram private actually, so um I like being able to vet who's watching me. It sounds really weird. Um but um if I had to say it was a love-hate relationship, I'd say it's mostly hate for me personally. Um it's effective, but it's one of those necessary evils, I think. And um I did the same dance or fight um mentor of mine, who's wonderful. Um he was like, you know, you're filling your brain with so many images on this, you know, if you spend time on the app. And if you're looking at subpar or mediocre things on there all the time, it's like kind of one of those things like you are who you, you are what you eat kind of thing. And so I think you have to be very careful even in curating what you're viewing, because um it's hard to be inspired when you see a lot of mediocre stuff, which sounds snotty and I don't mean it that way. Um, so I really try to not be super into it. Um there was a time where I was and it was very important to me because I met someone at a planner event and they were like, Do you have Instagram? And I'm like, I guess I do, but like I don't even remember when I made it or what my name was or whatever. And they were like, My daughter is a bartender and she has more followers than you do. And I was like, that's rude. And so I was like, you know what, I can get followers if I want to get followers. So I started doing these reels to like, you know, make that number bigger. And it's like making that number bigger, has it altered my life? No. Has it increased my sales? Maybe, but probably not. Has it driven people to learn from me? Probably. Um, but really, it's just I I'm kind of over it personally. Um so and turning it private, you know, I think a lot of people, you were talking about that self-validation peace. Um, you know, if you know you're producing the best work you are capable of producing, that's enough. I, you know, you could have people tell you how wonderful you are all the time, but if you don't think you're doing things that are wonderful, it's meaningless, right? Or if they tell you you're doing a horrible job and you really love the thing you're doing, same same thing. And so to me, um I think it promotes this idea of external validation, which I don't like. And it's a very slippery slope to be comparing yourself to other people all the time, which I think is the human condition. And I don't I just don't like it. But I have used it, if that makes sense. And and I've kind of like, you know, I don't want to say outgrown it, but I just I don't give it the significance that I think other people give it personally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I agree. I I mean like I remember early on with Instagram, like just as I was finishing college, I think I joined the app, and that was like 12, 13 years ago or something. And um I remember then it was just like a journal, like you just would post whatever you wanted to post. And it was it didn't feel like this marketing tool and this like opportunity to brand yourself and to like create a community of buyers or collectors or followers or whatever. Like it just felt really authentic at the at the beginning, and to have watched it like evolve into this, you know, marketing tool that's super it can get super polished, um just really bummed me out, you know, because artists I followed, it's like they would post, you know, books that they were reading, or like things like sketches and just like really quick, you know, just peripheral stuff to their process. And it was really exciting to just see like to learn how they're living their lives and and to wonder like how does this habit that they have of going to this coffee shop twice a week, how does that factor into their process or like to wonder those things, you know? And it feels like we've kind of lost that side of the app of um, you know, just not trying to again control someone's interpretation or perception of of your work or yourself. Um, and I've definitely had a love-hate relationship with the app, you know, since then to now. And in the last year or so, I've started to just play with like, okay, maybe I'll just clean out stuff and um try to spend as I don't know, I was gonna say as little as time as possible, but you know, I I definitely will sit and doom scroll on that app and and like things that are art related or or not art related, like uh kind of a tangent story. I my wife and I play Magic the Gathering with my brother and some friends, and some of the content I respond to is magic related. And there was an artist friend of mine who I haven't talked to in like 10 years, just randomly one day messaged me on Instagram and was like, Hey, I noticed that you're liking all this like magic content. Like I didn't know you played the game, we should play sometime. And I was immediately I was like, Can people see that I'm liking all this magic stuff? Like, I'm like, my oh my gallery, people are gonna like hate that I'm liking all this stuff. It just sent me into like this panic. And um, but then it's also like, who cares? Why do like why does that thought even like stress me out? You know, like and that's the side that I definitely hate, right? Is like that feeling that you have to perform and you have to curate and you have to really polish everything. And I don't know. I mean, would I love having thousands of followers? Probably, yeah, I would, you know, like probably. But um I don't know, it's it's nice. And this is the other thing I think that was really exciting about the Plain Air events when I first encountered them was I was coming out of grad school and I finished grad school uh in 2020, like right as that pandemic hit, was when we dropped our thesis work off in the museum. And like the museum closed for like six months or something, seven months. And so I was coming out of this like moment in my work where I just felt so disappointed with just like this thing I was I spent three years kind of working towards, and then it all just sort of fell through my hand. I felt like like the the exhibition part of it where you're gonna see the impact of your work and hear people's interpretations and see it like affecting people. I didn't get to have that part of the experience that I was expecting. And so the plan air events kind of lined up at a moment where it was like, and this was also when like everything was virtual, right? Like Zoom blew up and everyone started using social media a lot more, and it was like, wow, there's in-person networking here at these plan air events, and we're looking at the actual painting, and you're seeing people interact with the work that you you know that's fresh and you just made it. So like it was so appealing to me right away for that context of um just balancing the social media side of life with things in person again, and um, so that's been really healthy to have the two spaces and communities to to share and get ideas from and all that kind of stuff. So I think the balance part of it for me was really crucial in hindsight. Like I'm realizing that more now.
SPEAKER_03You see so much mediocre work online. Um it's a little bit like there's a flattening effect when you you can just if you spend too much time on social media or just on the internet, just so much inner imagery. And if a lot of it is mediocre, um, it just kind of flattens the whole field. In the same way, like AI slop, you know, the first time you see a kitten wearing a tuxedo, you're like, that's that's amazing. And then the tenth time you see it, and you're like, Oh god, another one of these, you know, and that happens in like five seconds. You see, like it's just too much. Um, I think there's a similar thing happening with imagery online, uh, artwork, whatever. And and uh there's a similar effect with plain air events, too, where like we're we produce the best work we can in that week, but it's not the best work of our career. You know, I don't want any of that work in a retrospective show uh 30 years from now, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Not even a couple pieces, maybe a couple.
SPEAKER_03Maybe a couple. Um, but that that's like the percentage of like really solid, really good paintings I see at a show, you know. Like I'll pick my my favorite five and the rest of them, I'm like, eh. I don't and I don't know that most of the artists would stand behind their work a hundred percent either. You know what I mean? They'll say I I gave it my best effort, but like um it is what it is. And so like if I spend too much time on Instagram, but then I go to a museum, I'm like, oh thank god, there is like you know, you you start to feel something again, you know. Uh whereas if you stare at a screen too much, like it it's just not I don't think it's good for the for the artistic soul. It's good for uh uh you know, everything in moderation. So like it's good to get inspired, um, but you can do that in like 10 or 15 minutes and then you know go stand at the easel for a while.
SPEAKER_02Could you imagine in a museum if there was like a little thumbs up icon with a number on it for each painting? Like how that would that would we would probably do the same thing we do online where it's like, oh, this is so good, or this is the you know, like the quantified side of it. Yeah, I also wonder in like 20 years looking back at like the social media boom and like within the world of artists, like how people will talk about the way it affected the process or creativity or some of those things too. You know, it's interesting to think about that.
SPEAKER_03I'm sure it's had some effect. Um like are more people doing portrait format uh paintings because they'll show up better on a vertical format social media platform.
SPEAKER_00I just always prefer a vertical composition almost or a square. I like squares.
SPEAKER_01Like squares.
SPEAKER_00Horizontals are sleepy.
SPEAKER_03I think I mean there there is something way more dynamic about I mean you're you're right about that, uh especially for a landscape. Um yeah, uh Tara, I know you gotta get going here pretty soon, so I guess we can probably sorry, Lena has a haircut, so getting getting her ears lowered.
SPEAKER_00She's getting her ears lowered just like you.
SPEAKER_02Oh you're you're both getting haircuts today?
SPEAKER_00Not me, my daughter, Mark and Lena. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Nice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for inviting me on to talk with both of you. This was really cool.
SPEAKER_00This was really fun. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for thank you for joining us, Hector. And uh, I guess we can plug your show one more time uh that's coming up at the Kim Storage Gallery in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in October.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so the the show opens October 2nd. The reception is on Friday, the 16th, and it coincides with uh uh MKE or Milwaukee Gallery Night. So a lot of shows will be up that weekend.
SPEAKER_03Um oh, anything else you want to plug? Oh, where can where can people find you? Instagram uh website, etc.
SPEAKER_02My Instagram handle is at Hectorakuna period art, and my website is akunaarts.com.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. Well, everybody, uh thank you for joining us for this talk. And uh happy painting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, happy painting, everybody.
SPEAKER_03Happy painting.