Coaching Strategies for Menopausal Clients with Irene McCormick

Unlock the secrets to effectively coaching women in midlife by dispelling common myths, understanding physiological changes, and applying evidence-based strategies. Join Dr. Erin and Irene McCormick as they explore how fitness professionals can adapt their approaches for optimal support during this transformative stage. 

In this episode:

• Irene shares her journey from fitness enthusiast to menopause expert
• The importance of tailored coaching strategies for women in perimenopause and beyond
• Addressing myths: menopause is not just an aging process, but a hormonal transition
• The significance of recovery, self-care, and functional movement for women in midlife
• How to implement just-in-time coaching interventions based on real-time data
• The limitations of calories in, calories out, and the fall
  
  

Connect with Irene

IG: @irene_mccormick_3 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Fitness Education Online for the US and Canada. I am your host, Dr. Erin, and I am here today with my dear friend Irene McCormick. And she and I first met three, four years ago when I took a menopause mentor training from her just to learn more about coaching women in midlife and to learn a little bit more about midlife in general and those physiological changes. And since then it has evolved into a very dear, close relationship and friendship. And I am so proud to have her on to talk to us about that very thing, coaching women in midlife and what we can do better and what we can learn and how we approach it. So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Irene and have her give us kind of an intro to who she is, why she is drawn to this topic and why we should be paying more attention to this.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Well, first of all, before I get all professional and stuff, I just want to go because I, friends, am so honored to be working with Dr. Erin. Jessica's not available right now. And just in case listeners are like, why does she call her Dre? It's her nickname. Okay. So it might pop out my mouth, but she's Dr. Dre. No, I don't know you guys. She's just cool to me. I'm sure you'll edit that out, but whatever. No. I just love this woman and respect her tremendously. And I have found as I've transitioned my career in fitness from, you know, just the very start days. Literally, I started teaching exercise when I was 15 years old. I had to get a work permit in the state. And I worked in a women's only gym. So just from my very inception, I quickly realized it was kind of like a, you know, the fox guarding the hen house, the entire industry. You know, I got AFA certified in 1987, and I was probably one of the most educated people in the room. And I knew nothing. I still don't know a lot more. But with just a summary of my career, writing, presenting, lifting, and elevating other people, I specifically really gravitate towards women. I feel like they're underserved. I feel like they have a lot of misinformation circling around. I feel very strongly that our consumer-based knowledge of exercise science, first issue, they don't realize it's a scientist. Second issue, there we're about 25 to 30 years behind the curve on what's really actually happening in the field of exercise science versus what consumers are doing. It's still very much a comparative, competitive model. And I know that works for some, but for the women that I really want to support, that is not what they want. They want to be healthy, they want to be happy, they want to lose this random fat that just joined up onto their body, and they want to know why they feel, you know, no disrespect, ladies, because I'm right there with you. Crazy. Because when we have these feelings associated with menopause, an area that I've really gravitated towards because I started my career. This is the briefest part. I was I was a student athlete in Southern California, and I qualified for a study at UCLA by a doctor named Dr. Carol Otis. This is the first time in my whole life, y'all, that I realized women were in the lab doing research. This is like 81, 79. Wow. Yeah. I couldn't believe it, but I was exposed to that at a really young age. And I think it really, really um shaped my career as far as fitness because I just started teaching fitness because, you know, I was a cheerleader and I could follow the beat and I had schedule availability and it looked good. That was the criteria for being hired. Things are so much different now. And that is why, like what I'll share with you now is evidence-based. It's research-based. It is literally a 180 from where we started when we worked with women just trying to solve their problems like they're men.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah, that is one of the things I am so over, is women weren't included in studies really consistently until the 90s. And we have since before that extrapolated data from studies including men and then tried to apply it to women. And like what Stacy Sims, Dr. Stacy Sims, always says is women are not small men. And it's such a genius thing, and she's so on point. It's like, stop, stop generalizing data collected on men of a certain demographic and then saying, well, it might work for women. How about we just look at women? And we are, as you said, like women didn't really enter the research space until much later. And we're behind the eight-ball in terms of understanding how we really coach women in midlife and how we make it, make it make sense to them, like you said. It has to be immediately applicable.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yes. That is something they have got to walk away. It's called sticky training. And if it doesn't stick, you're not effective. End of story. Yeah. I don't care what your role is, mental health, medical professional, fitness pro, nutrition suit counselor, whatever. If it's not sticking, it's not working. So we have to make sure what women need in order for them to understand what to do. Well, first of all, they've got to understand the process that they're in. Nobody has explained it to them. I can't wait, Dr. Aaron, to see your daughter grow up and come to a stage like this. The conversation you have with her is going to be so it's going to exist. It didn't exist before. So it's not about women being better or worse than men or trainers that don't know anything or not good. That's not it at all. But I do want to assure fitness professionals that you have to understand what happens to cortisol, insulin. People don't understand insulin sensitivity. They don't have a clue what that means. These are biomarkers that we use as pros. Yes. And then we try to just go ahead and plug it into our consumer people. That's not what they need to know. They need to know, okay, you got to stand like this and you got a hinge right here. Make a hand sandwich with me. Okay, now how heavy is that weight? Does it feel heavier than your purse? How about if you hold two purses? Okay, pull it up. That's meeting people where they are. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I don't, I'm not trying to be condescending or anything. I just want people to know what they need to know. And we just have a really different focus now. We have all the research. So I feel empowered to really support women in perimenopause and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad to hear you say all of that because yes, it is something that women need is relevancy. Why, why am I doing this and what's it gonna do for me? And you touched on something about early on about the misinformation. And I want to talk about that. And I want to have our listeners better understand what are some of the biggest myths or misunderstandings you see around women's health during perimenopause and beyond. Like if you can give us maybe the top four.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

I am so excited to share this with you because this is relatively new information for me too, because I'm doing all this research and going, we as women start to experience, ladies, this will help you understand why age is a myth. You are gonna start experiencing little drips of your perimenopause journey while you're still fertile. Probably, this isn't for every woman, but for a lot more than think they are 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33. I want you to think PMS. I want you to think exacerbated mood swings in between your menstrual cycles. I want you to think weird menstrual cycles, nothing really weird but heavy this time. And hello, you are in pre-perimenopause. Yeah, absolutely. And there's no connection. I'm so sorry, but they're not connecting the dots at all because why would they? How would they know to do that? And it's not bad. No, it's not talked about at all. But it is interesting. The point I bring up is that the reason that it's important to realize that you're gonna start, you know, seeing these fluctuating hormones as early as 28, 29. So we can't go, I'm not 45. I can't be in, yes, you can.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

You can, you really can. Um, I'm 45, and I started experiencing it probably at 39, but I didn't like obviously connect.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, how would you connect the dots? You would never have been like, oh my God, obviously. There was nobody that would have told you.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

No, and practitioners, and I think that's one of the other myths is like that it's it's always classified as it's just a function of aging. But but it's you that is not mean that you have to feel bad. Everybody deserves to feel their best. And too often in the Western medical model, practitioners just don't seem to take it seriously. And instead, they'll look at hormone panels, which is great, but that also matters in terms of where somebody's at in the month in their cycle. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Well, these women don't understand the lutinizing phase or the follicular phase. And that would be step one. Do you know the relationship? I know you do. I'm preaching to the choir here, just making this point for our listeners. The relationship between performance and your menstrual cycle, there is a ton of research happening on that now. And researchers, mostly male, no disrespect, but primarily when you go into the research field in the exercise sciences, it's going to be a majority of men. And so it's not gonna be like a focus, but I'm telling you, estrogen, she is the goddess of hormones. And when she exits the room, she makes an exit dramatically. Very exit stage left. She's like, bye, and you're like, oh there are, Dr. Aaron, there are so many things. Probably one of my most favorite things to talk about now. Gee, how many things do you have? A lot. But just within the, you know, the perimenopause space, sleep and cortisol and that stress cycle. Whoa! Once you break that cycle, then here's something else. I am not a medical professional. I do not work for a supplement company. I have several companies I like. Supplement, supplement, supplements. They are really helpful. Most women don't realize that when they don't get adequate amounts of GABA, DHEA, magnesium, acetylcholine, they're not in recovery long enough. Maybe, you know, there's some amino acids that are they're they're non-essential, meaning your body can make them, like thyroxine. Thyroxine. I'm sorry, I think I'm mispronouncing it, excuse me. But it is a non-essential amino acid, but it's responsible for recovery and muscle building and also your GI tract. You know why that's important? Because all of our neurotransmitters are made in the gut. And something really significant to women who start entering menopause through perimenopause is they start to get depressed and they start to get down. And there's that cortisol cycle that can exacerbate that. That's going on over here. Okay. But she still has all these feelings of whatever, which is these, you know, if you are not getting the amount of greens that you want, hence the big, you know, explosion of greens everywhere, right? You're not making serotonin, you're not making dopamine, you're not making all the things that make you want to be alive and happy. Dopamine in particular is connected to confidence. It is connected to um drive. That's why it's such a strong motivator for, you know, people who get that dopamine experience when they use drugs to continue to use them. We lose that. Dopamine is, and those um supplements I just mentioned over the counter once a day with food. Um, they're supplements. So I feel okay saying here's something you can consider. And they're cost less than $10.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, I I think that that that is definitely a myth, is that something like that is not needed, but really we do have gaps in nutrition, and it's helpful to find a way to bridge that gap if you're not getting it from Whole Foods and making sure your body is recovering in a way that allows you to perform your best.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Well, I'm gonna ask you, and I want you to just think in your own mind because I know you're gonna picture, you're gonna make a picture of this. I think when I tell women you need recovery, for example, I offer Hot Flash Huddle, which is virtual training, and I meet women wherever they are. It's super simple. It's like I try to keep the sessions really short because you don't need anything else to put on your plate. But if you don't do self-care and self-care is not boozing it with the girls and hanging out, you know, at the spa and spending $700. Yes, that's amazing. Self-care usually requires a little bit of discipline.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, and self-care is not a spa day. And I think another myth surrounding this, and in particular for females, is that rest is somehow a reward and not a right. It's a requirement. It's it's absolutely what you need. That's where all of the repair work is done. Like you don't do the work in the gym, the repair work and building stronger happens when you're resting. And not to mention the cleaning of the brain. Like I always think that sleep is a wash and rinse cycle. Yeah, wash free screen. Yeah, exactly. It like cleans out all of that mess and all of that waste. And if we're not powering down in a way, like our battery overheats and our our nervous system starts to scream at us. And I used this analogy in a podcast just the other day about like our nervous system is kind of like the bat signal. Totally. Like we have to pay attention to it. And and I think exactly. For so long, we camped it down and we can't continue to do that and still feel well midlife and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Can I share one way and reason that I believe that we push it down and go, come on, come on, push through. You can do this. The competitive comparative model.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Who am I competing with in the gym? Why is my coach screaming at me to jump onto a 24-inch box? Yeah. I it's really, it's not right for me. It's not that I can't do it or I don't want to because I don't, I'm afraid, or I don't have the skill set. I don't want to because it's stupid for me. And there's nobody considering what my needs are. They're not meeting me where I am, which is exactly what I said. But what I wanted to share, and what you did so nicely is you, you know, you talk to your clients about recovery and they don't they don't know what that means. And I say recovery means rest and it means not working out. And the whole like, well, it doesn't count then. Like, you know, we walked, but my heart rate didn't get high. So, you know, that doesn't count. Don't do my fitbit only said, well, every movement matters, friends, and every movement counts every single day of your life.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Don't try to be work out more, try to be less sedentary. Yeah, I love that. And you just that's a good segue into another myth that I want to highlight that I hear being perpetuated in Western medicine is just eat less and move more. Like not understanding that continually putting that stress of a deficit on your body is a stress and it is going to backfire. And it is not metabolism has never been as simple as calories in, calories out. And we overemphasize how much calories count in terms of exercise. Like it's like this much in terms of the entire spectrum of our metabolic rate. Neat counts for more.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

I was just about to go. Neat is the only thing I would even consider when I'm looking at calories. Yes. And I wish, if I had three wishes, my first wish, I'm not even kidding you, is to remove the calorie from the consumer vocabulary. Honestly. The word does not mean anything. No, it's the amount of water temperature that you change when you boil water on a certain scale. And it's used in a lab to determine, you know, energy use, but it doesn't necessarily equate to the human body that way because, like you mentioned, there's so there's so many other contributing factors. So something as simple as calories in, it's not, it's that's not what it is. And that's how come? And I'm I'm not a nutritionist. I don't have an RD, but I do have a master's in exercise physiology working on my PhD. So I talk about what's appropriate for my scope of practice, and that is amino acids, sugar, and fat. That is all. Because really all you're talking about is energies. People are like, oh, energy in, I'll energy out, I'll just watch the thing on the treadmill and see how many times until I get to that if that model worked, it would work.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Well, if that model worked and it was as simple and as dichotomous as calories in, calories out, our profession would not exist.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

We wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

We wouldn't have a different focus totally. Yeah, and we would, there wouldn't be a need for us because people would not be struggling with weight management issues, or as they get to midlife and we're playing by a different set of rules physiologically and metabolically, it's just never going to be that simple. And unfortunately, I think in an effort to translate to consumers, this is how much is in this bag of chips, it be it has become this like numerical value that people put way too much emphasis on while overlooking that food labels can be off by 20%. Try supplement labels.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

They will expire those supplements way sooner than they're expired. That's just an insider tip.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah. Because they don't have any rules. No, they don't. That they are not, they're largely unregulated. So I think that's a myth is that, well, it's calories in, calories out, and you should move more and eat less. And ultimately what that does is just do the opposite. Like you, you, it's it promotes more fat gain.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

It promotes more because there's not enough time in a day to do that much training and allow yourself, especially these people who are committed, like every morning, 5 a.m. I sure hope they're not doing the workout that's the same every morning at 5 a.m. Oh. I bet $100,000 that they are.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah. And I think it's another myth is that we should be making sure that you have like four to five HIT sessions a week for women in this stage of life while overlooking that that is an additional stress on the body and it is largely unnecessary. Like, yeah, sprint interval training is great, getting in zone too. But what really moves the needle is like lifting.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Oh my God, that is. Um, when you just talked about, I was on, I was actually on channel 13 news yesterday and do the Hello Iowa show. It's so fun, it's so wonderful to share information. But, you know, the said principle is, and I'm I'm a girl who wrote the book on hits. So I'm, you know, this is the 90s, uh late 90s, early 2000s. So really good thing first. In Spanish and Mandarin. Um, but we really focused on caloric expenditure, total caloric expenditure, total caloric expenditure. I think that was a mistake. I don't think there isn't value in total caloric expenditure, but we put all our eggs in one basket, like we tend to do in the industry, and we all went all out hit. Now, what's going on is the hormones. I am a psycho hormone geek now. I'm learning and learning more and more. Nepinephrine. Norepinephrine is in exact opposition to epinephrine, which actually is the word we refer to as adrenaline or cortisol. It's the same, it's the same thing. So if you have cortisol in your body, epinephrine cannot do what its job is. And epinephrine's job, it is the ultimate fat burner, and it has the unique distinction to be not only a hormone, but also a neurotransmitter. And that is why I want her, you said, you know, all you know, you do the workout, that's not where everything happens. The magic happens in recovery.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

It does. And we under-recover all the time and we undersleep. And I also think that another myth is that well, one poor night of sleep doesn't matter. No, that that can significantly impact your insulin the next day.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, that'll derail you for sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, it's a stress on the body. And I think we just poo-poo that way too much. When I say we, I think it's a message consumers here that leaves professionals like us having to kind of clean up that misinformation of actually one night of poor sleep impacts you in this way. That's relevance. That's that's creating meaning for the client. And you have said over and over meeting clients where they are, which leads me to this question about coaching strategies. Like, how do you feel coaching strategies should shift for fitness professionals who are training women in perimenopause and beyond as opposed to like other stages of life? Like, what are some coaching strategies and maybe even language that we need to be using?

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Things are changing. People, they really are. They're changing in the workplace. Menopause is now being recognized as an official, not disability, but an accommodation. It's not a wellness initiative anymore. It is now becoming employment law. So that's gonna really change things for people who provide education and information for insurance companies and for anybody who works with women in corporate settings. The C-suite's gonna have a real different thought process coming out here because it's not gonna be a choice. It's gonna be a compliance issue. You wanna, okay, I'm having, I'm not having a menopause moment, but I had a few thoughts. Okay, this is what happens and why a coach would want to address flex, for example, you know, you meet clients where they are. Okay, I'll give you a let's do a case study. Client comes in, she's your client, she's in her like, you know, 52. She's definitely in perimenopause, probably approaching menopause. We don't know for sure, right? Okay. But she's got symptoms. These symptoms, as you know, there are 36 identified symptoms of menopause that have been, I think there's way more than that, but there's identified. Way more, yeah. But that's what they've got classified. So if she's not sleeping at night. Or that one night where she was like, that's so funny. Cause I had a client just the other day. She's under so much stress right now. And she's like, Well, I didn't sleep very well last night because we had a session the next day. You know what I did the entire session? I totally changed the focus of the session because her cortisol levels were off the roof. Do you think I have time to explain to her the physiological function? I could, but she'd probably be like, whatever. I mean, she's interested because she wants to know that I know what I'm doing. But here, literally, elevator pitch speech earring, here's the problem. It's not the cortisol. That's not what the cortisol is released. It's not released because it's like, I don't have anything to do. I think I'll just circulate. And there's something going on in your brain, which area we're not sure, something, which is a low grade underlying stress most women are under constantly. It's so low grade, it's like a sound you don't even hear anymore. And then some things will just exacerbate it. Like, for example, maybe she had something on her mind because her boss the night before said, I want to talk to you tomorrow morning at work. Anxious. Thanks for the setup. So she doesn't sleep. So what is going on? She's waking up. So if she's waking up more than about 15 times a night and you think that's not happening, it's usually between 15 and 19 on average, and you don't even know that you are. Eventually, she might even get up. If she's like me, she might even get up, go downstairs, see if the kitchen needs cleaning, or maybe there's a message I missed. That is doom scrolling. It only exacerbates the cortisol. Cortisol eats glucose. You got cortisol rushing through your body. You are not using fat as an energy source. The mitochondria, the mighty mitochondria are out of luck. There's no time to process. So you just got to use everything. And then if you get more food in than your body can right now need and you're like psycho-feeling moment, fat, that's the cycle. And that's what happened to her last night. And it doesn't matter, I shouldn't say that's not right. Doesn't seem to make a difference if it happens once or twice, but it's gonna happen a hundred or two hundred times in the next two years.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah. And I think what you highlight there is really important. And I think like a key takeaway for listeners and coaches is the power of the pivot. You have a client come in, do a quick two-minute check-in on a scale of one to 10, how's your energy? I actually dial it down to a scale of one to five. So they don't have to like really think too. No more thinking. Yes! Don't give me any more thinking. Don't give me any more thinking. It's a cognitive load, executive function is taxed. Oh, how is your energy? How is sleep? How's hydration? Like three primary things I ask. And if they're, you know, oh, my sleep was a five. Awesome. How's your hydration? It's a two. Great. Let's get some water. Let's get it on board. Let's move. But if that scale is identified as something lower, I'm gonna ask, like, well, what happened? Why wasn't sleep great? Like what had happened preceding that? And finding out in two minutes whether they're recovered enough to participate in what you have planned is the best way you can make a coaching decision in the moment of that's the conversation. Yeah. It starts with the conversation. So the power of the pivot is really a coaching strategy that our listeners, if they don't already use it or they're thinking about coaching clients in this stage of life. And honestly, I would argue for any client that comes in. I would say so too.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I was gonna say, Dr. Aaron, I know you and Dear and Parker have an amazing mentoring program. Absolutely unbelievably necessary. And it will take off like you wouldn't believe because things are changing in this country. Fitness professional entrance is not gonna be as easy. It's not gonna be limited or totally excluded for people, but there's gonna be some barriers to entry. I can't wait for that. But one of the things like you're talking about, right? There's no new trainer. No matter how qualified, skilled, GPA, whatever, whatever great they were in their sport in college, wonderful, that's all fabulous. They are not gonna know to have that check-in conversation. Plus, they worked with Aaron or Darien and listened to them go, hey, every time you worked with a client, you say, Hey, how's it going today? Tell me about you. We don't want to hear about you. We want to hear about her.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

That's it. Yeah. Because we've got to make that immediate flip because our industry is too self-centered.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah. And I think another coaching strategy, or at least I would say, I would argue, a coaching principle is really encouraging pros to look into the just-in-time interventions. You know, those things that those things that happen that you have to make a coaching decision about immediately. And you've got a client who has experienced X, Y, and Z. Like what can you do just in time before their adherence drops off, before their motivation declines anymore? How do you pivot it in such a way that it still meets them where they're at? Provides them with some sort of something. And I would argue that recovery is a training variable. Yes. It is something that happens after.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

But Dr. Aaron, my fit bit doesn't show that I burned any calories. So it doesn't count. Sorry, friends, I'm not trying to make fun of you, but if you are confident in yourself, you'll probably laugh at that.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, it's true. Like wearables have given us a lot of data.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Wonderful data.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, like it's something that we desperately need because data tells a story, right? Like data allows us to make better coaching decisions, but only when we see it as patterns, not isolated numbers on a random Tuesday. Like it has to be over, it's longitudinal. It's science, right? Like what does patterns show? Patterns emerge over time. It's a principle of science. So really being able to look at those variables in a way that shows, oh, their recovery score is lower than their trending average. What's going on here? And that's where that just in time or that pivot comes into play is like, I've noticed this reflective of a different or it's off pattern. So I'm gonna go this way and we're gonna do a yoga session today. Yep. That's exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I go, you know what? Let's start with some Pilates mat and then let's see how your energy levels feel. And sometimes they rally and sometimes they just need range of motion, proprioceptive. You know, if you're doing movement that's like bicep curls with alternating knee lifts, and then you go into a squat and they can't balance during the biceps curls. Yeah, that is like a trainer right there going, hold the phone, back it up. You can easily regress without them even knowing. But these are the idiosyncrasies that women in perimenopause and menopause need. They need to have without being embarrassed places they can go if they start feeling hypoglycemic. I can't even begin to tell you how many women I train that get hypoglycemic when they initially start working with me because they don't realize how much energy they're using. It's so they underestimate what they're actually doing with me. But on the flip side, when they're working out on their own, they drastically overestimate their energy expenditure. So it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, absolutely. Like we do see that as they're they're overestimating. And so I always I think another coaching strategy to highlight, which will lead me into the next question, is being able to not emphasize the burn, you know, about the movement. Like, how are you moving your body today? Let's set aside the numerical value because it will never be 100% accurate.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

No, it's subjective.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

It's never gonna be what we want. It's never going and plus like the algorithms in your wearables, like how many of those were based on data extrapolated from mail stuff. Yeah, not for me to thing. But I think another coaching strategy is focusing on like decentering the burn and looking at it more as functional, purposeful movement.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Experience, yes, that is progressively overloaded. So by the time we get to round, you know, ACSM guidelines, one set of eight to 12 reps, you know, a load of 75% or more is going to get a result if you do zero. Okay, you're gonna see a statistical change. Yes. That's a bare minimal standard, though. Bare minimal. So my clients do, you know, we don't do a lot of different exercises. We are really good at the three we do three times. That's nine sets. You will see changes in your lean mass. But what I was gonna also refer to with respect to the coaching that you just are talking about, and I might have interrupted your question, so I apologize, but we have to coach to the data. And this is in my menopause mentor course for fitness coaches, because coaching women is really, I can teach you all about the physiology of hormone changes, and I can tell you about some better ways to coach. The language you use is a big part of the education. We want to feel and be empathetic, but I don't coach to feelings. I hope that people get what that means because I've said that in workshops before, and people are like, How can you not coach to feelings? I go, listen, if her, you know, if we're doing subjective data and she tells me she's tighter, tired or exhausted or really can't, but I look at the objective data, whatever it is I'm collecting. Guess what we're going with? I'm gonna coach her into more performance based on what I observe. I'm looking now at objective data, and it looks like she's really overtraining right now in this moment. But she's like, this feels great. I love it. I've been so stressed out. She needs to bring that down. She doesn't understand. That's what our whole culture teaches people is just go mindless and go work out. And if you haven't done it for a year, just go do a 90-day workout or join a you know, six-day-a-week gym where you guys work out, you know, with heavy load. And even though you don't have any, all muscle is made in the brain first. People, neural tracts are laid down. It takes time. You can't load movement you can't perform. And that's so many women are placed in those positions because the men, excuse me, men, some women too, are not attuned to functional movement. Remember, we're training movement, we're not training muscle. So, what does she need to do? You know what I need to do? I gotta get really low underneath my sinks. I gotta get into a really deep squat. I gotta take my arms and start moving them around so I can pull stout from underneath there and plug stuff in and reach back and grab a cat who's trying to reach out the door. How is a deadlift gonna help me with that? Can you tell me? Right. How is box jumping gonna help me with that one? You know, I I know I sound like, yeah, meh, but these are real problems. These are really happening. Our biggest issue in fitness, this is why, you know, women are like, where do I go? What do I do? I had an amazing conversation with um Michelle Earle from Human Kinetics. I love Michelle. Yes, Michelle's an amazing woman. I was so excited just to listen to her calm demeanor, let her let me go, and then give me feedback. And she was just like, Irene, women don't even know what they don't even know. There's so much misinformation out there about menopause and perimenopause and what to do and HRT. There's no reliable places people can really go to get info. I'm changing that. I'm trying to. But that's very true. And so people are just so confused. And if you're not a trainer who's had even just four hours of physiology on the stages of menopause, pay attention to menopause slash postmenopause because that's all the cognitive stuff. There's literally cognitive decline. These, these menopause moments, these all those have to do with changes in estrogen in the brain. Your hypothalamus gland goes crazy as you start reaching fluctuating hormones. That's why you have hot flashes. Uh, night sweat is nothing more than a hot flash that you just stay in the bed longer because you're sleeping and you're not aware. Same event. There's prescription drugs that you can take to manage that. Up to you, but I would explore a lot before I just went on. You know, there's some feedback about some of these, this HRT that helps people lose weight. You know, all the GLP1 HRT. People don't even think about as HRT. They're just putting themselves on HRT. Bone mineral density is becoming, I mean, there's having problems with osteoporosis and osteopenia. I wasn't researched, Erin. I was so worried when that popped up. I thought, where's the death? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah, exactly. I think for pros, it's really important to know that science behind it so you know how to train effectively, which leads me into this question before we get to our lightning round. Is if there's a one thing, just one thing, you wish every coach and every woman understood about this stage of life, what is that one thing?

SPEAKER_01 34:22

You are not done. I love that. You have to know that you are not done. This is literally a butterflies just transitioning into another stage. It's fun, it's sexy. You're gonna love your body once you get control over some of the fat. You start lean mass training 20 to 30 minutes, two to three days a week with me if you want to. I am not lying. You will see. It takes eight weeks to see anything. It's you've got and you've got to be super consistent. And I'm, I mean, we think about it, we think, oh God, another thing I have to do. I'm a woman. I don't want to do any more. Think of this as self-care. Remember, self-care is not partying and spending too much money. Self-care is a little bit of discipline. You know, I I want to go on a nature walk. I don't really have time, but I'm gonna make it happen because I need to be out there. That's self-care, taking yourself seriously. But yeah, you are not done. And it just breaks my heart when I see these women. Seriously, the economic toll menopause takes on our country. There's a 10% brain drain for menopausal women in the workforce. It's a huge problem. These are talented women, but they are not getting support. They can't come in, they're having an emotional breakdown, they're having hot flashes that are out of control, make them nauseous. They call their supervisor, they get fired or written up. They're so stressed about having those issues, they don't want to call anybody because they don't want to get fired or written up. Or because this is why. Yeah. And judged, oh my God, that's the totally different story. That happens too. But you know, I just want to be comfortable in my space. I don't want to be sweating and have everybody stare at my crotch and my underarms because I'm in a meeting and I'm having a hot flash and everyone looks at me like I'm like I have, you know, tetanus or I don't even know, some bad disease that's horrible. And um, it's embarrassing. It kills my self-esteem, it kills my confidence. Um, until I started really taking care of myself when I started noticing a lot of these changes. I felt ugly. I felt unattractive. Why would my husband want to have sex with me? These are women's, these are thoughts that they have. And then if there's no conversation between the partner, whatever that is, there's a divorce or a breakup, or it's really happens. It's really documented. Let's not let that happen. Let's keep our women feeling amazing about who they are, but you've got to commit to it. I love it. You are not done.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Okay, that brings us to our lightning round. Okay, lightning round. What do I do on lightning round? So, three questions. You have 30 seconds for each question. So, first one, in 30 seconds or less, what are the most important things Fit Pros need to know about training women in perimenopause? Go.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Perimenopause is a sticky one because they don't really know they're in perimenopause. There's not really a blood test. They're probably gonna be uninclined to go get one. They're just gonna start having a lot of symptoms and think refer them, ask them to get a panel.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Love it. Perfect. Okay. Second one. In 30 seconds or less, what are the biggest training mistakes Fit Pros make with women in perimenopause? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yes. Oh, I'm sorry I didn't even jump in because it's just hit training, not enough recovery. Listen, if I'm a trainer and my schedule is such that, oh gosh, I usually see her on Monday and Thursday, that's ideal because she has time to recover, you know, given what she's been given to do any time. Well, my training schedule is such. How about if I train you Thursday night and then can you come in Friday morning? No. What? Who is that about? That is not about the client at all. Not being knowledgeable about what their recovery or in-between sessions needs are and honoring them. If they need to be assigned a mobility session or a fitness class or something online or whatever, that's where you follow up and that's called program design. That's what they're paying you for, honey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Good. Awesome. Last question. Last question. 30 seconds or less. How should strength, cardio, and recovery be adjusted for women in this phase of life to get the best results?

SPEAKER_01 38:15

God, you're so good, Erin. Strength needs to be the emphasis. We do not go to cardio as our go-to for fitness anymore. No. Cardio should be aerobic. That does not mean you can't experience anaerobic bouts. That's good. It challenges the cardiovascular system. And there's lots of good things about it, but we overdid it. So uh depending on the type of training you're doing, you're looking at a minimum of 24 to 48 hours between workouts. That doesn't include a low-impact workout or something. But just being mindful of strength training and making it be part of it has to be there. Hydration. If you're not sipping water and you're chatting with people, let's say you're at the gym, I'd say you might want to rethink that gym membership. Save yourself some money, buy some weight, and do it at home for 20 minutes. And mobility is sexy. Oh, I like it. If you want to look and move like elegant, beautiful, as lovely as you probably feel, you have to practice balance, flexibility, proprioception, strength. That's how you're sexy. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

I love it. Those are all like great pieces of tips and advice for our fit pros. And I just want to thank you for your time, your wisdom, your passion, your energy for this topic. And please tell our listeners how they can get in touch with you or where they can follow you.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Oh, I love that. Thank you so much. Dr. Aaron's been with me, friends, for a long time. And I've been trying over the last probably four years or so to develop a place and a space for women in perimenopause that have a place to go that's like really legit. I swear I'm legit. I will give you nothing that I don't know, everything I do know. It is so important that you take this seriously if you want to create a better life for yourself in your 60s and 70s and beyond. You want people helping you get off the toilet. So you either have to think about one day or is this gonna be day one? And I also want you to remember if you are a trainer and you are nervous or you're like, I'm not really sure, you know what? Get some education. Be confident enough to try, but be humble enough to be willing to learn.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

I love that. I think that is absolutely a mic drop moment. And I think it encourages pros to know that you'll never know everything, but you have the have the courage to try and then seek out that guidance and advice from people who may have more practice, more experience than you. And Irene is certainly one of those people. You can follow her on Instagram, you can connect with her on Facebook. She does have a menopause mentor course through the American Council on Exercise. And I was one of the course reviewers. I can honestly say it is it is more than worth your time and investment to learn about this important topic. And Irene, thank you again for being here with me today. And I look forward to having you on another show. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to have Dr.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Erin on my group. It's school.com slash herd, because we want women in menopause to be heard. And she will be a featured, wonderful guest for me. So please join us there. Thank you, my love. Thank you so much, Erin. You are such a wonderful gift to the fitness industry. Trust me, I am not trying to say things that I don't mean. I've been in this industry a long time. I don't have a big circle, but the circle I have is really, really special. So thank you for letting me be in yours and you in mine.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Well, thank you. It is my own. All right. We will see all of you next time on Fitness Education Online for the US and Canada. Love it. Thank you for.