Prost! Podcast
A Midwestern Wine, Music, and Agri-Tourism podcast hosted by the Pilgrimage Wine Company.
Prost! Podcast
Prost! Podcast Episode #20 - Kevin Milner's Journey: A Songwriter's Tale
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Summary
In this episode of the PROST! Podcast, host Scott Eckart speaks with singer-songwriter Kevin Milner about his journey in music, the challenges of songwriting, and the importance of authenticity in a rapidly changing music landscape. They discuss the impact of the Songwriter Solstice event, Kevin's vocal challenges after surgery, and his influences from artists like Neil Young and Tracy Chapman. The conversation also touches on the modern challenges of capturing audience attention, the rise of kids' music, and the role of record labels today. Kevin shares his insights on the evolution of music scenes and the future of music in the age of AI, emphasizing the need for genuine connection in songwriting.
Takeaways
-Kevin Milner emphasizes the importance of audience attention for songwriters.
-The Songwriter Solstice event has been a significant platform for musicians.
-Authenticity in music is crucial, especially in a world dominated by AI.
-Kevin's vocal challenges have shaped his songwriting journey.
-Influences like Neil Young and Tracy Chapman have impacted Kevin's style.
-The modern music landscape requires shorter songs to capture attention.
-Kevin is exploring writing kids' music due to their attentive nature.
-Record labels today provide support in a challenging music industry.
-The quality of young musicians has significantly improved over the years.
-Connection and emotional expression are vital roles of a songwriter.
Keywords
Kevin Milner, songwriting, music, storytelling, authenticity, challenges, kids music, record labels, music scene, AI in music
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Kevin Milner
04:15 The Songwriter Solstice and Its Impact
07:16 The Art of Storytelling in Songwriting
09:52 Kevin's Journey and Vocal Challenges
12:58 Musical Influences and Early Inspirations
16:00 Defining Kevin's Sound and Albums
19:01 Songwriting Process and Inspiration
21:59 The Role of Authenticity in Music
24:50 Challenges in the Modern Music Landscape
27:50 The Shift Towards Kids' Music
30:47 The Role of Record Labels Today
33:35 The Evolution of Music Scenes
36:36 The Future of Music and AI
39:43 The Importance of Connection in Music
42:53 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations
54:09 Kevin Milner extro.mp3
Hey, what's up y'all? This is Scott Eckert, your host, the Prost Podcast here in Cambridge City, Indiana. Awesome winemaker, Pilgrimage Wine Company in the Treaty Line Vineyard. And here at Prost we highlight singers, songwriters, musicians one week. Next week we'll talk to people in the beer, wine, and spirits industry just to show you a little bit of what's going on here in eastern central Indiana.
SPEAKER_01Stop.
SPEAKER_00Alright, this week on the show I have a great singer-songwriter from the Cincinnati area, Ohio. Uh his name's Kevin Milner. I caught him at a show uh recently at Roscoe's uh here in Richmond, Indiana, and uh really wanted to catch up with him and hear about his record label and and everything that he's got going on. So I hope you enjoy this uh conversation. Proost. Hey y'all, I hate to do this, but it's a shameless plug. If you're digging the podcast, you find anything interesting, please like and subscribe either at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. Really helps the show, apparently, and uh it'll help other people in the local area hear about these great winemakers and great uh singer-songwriters. So please like and subscribe. Otherwise, y'all enjoy. All right, we are live, and uh thanks everybody for joining us on the Pros podcast this week. Um, and I have the honor of speaking with Mr. Kevin Milner out of uh roughly Dayton, Ohio, but east of uh Treaty Line, and uh he's a singer-songwriter. And uh so again, uh just want to say uh welcome, Kevin. How are you this morning?
SPEAKER_03I'm doing well. How about you?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing great, man. So uh so you're in uh Dayton today. Are you are you there right now?
SPEAKER_03I am, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, how's the weather out there?
SPEAKER_03Uh terribly cold and still 12 inches of snow on the ground. And uh it's been a long winter and it's not over yet.
SPEAKER_00No, it's not over yet. We're still in February. We got one more month to go, but it spring is coming, and uh as as I like to believe, you know, that's it gives us that appreciation for the four seasons. But it's been a rough winter for sure. It sure has been. Um definitely a lot uh some gigs have been canceled and stuff like that, and people people haven't been coming out. But um all right, well, cool. I'm I'm in um I'm in uh Fortville today, our our farm and and everything's in uh Cambridge City, Indiana, so probably about you know, the farm's equidistant to both of us. But uh um again, welcome. Um I um I I know we have you coming out for a songwriter in the round. We're gonna be starting our music up uh first part of March, and I've got you paired with um uh a really great songwriter um and uh really looking forward to having you out. Um I caught you at a benefit put on by Mr. Joe Augustine, uh otherwise known as Achilles Tenderloin, at Roscoe's Coffee House. Um got to see your set and really, really dug it. I loved kind of the wholesome, organic. Um just no um no, you know, no fuss, no frills, just very stripped down, very pure, very um authentic and in some ways um vulnerable. Uh it was just a and it was a great scene. There's some really uh talented musicians that night. That was a really uh fun show.
SPEAKER_03Um so uh anyways, is Joe August. Yes, please. Joe and I actually m started that event together 14 years ago. So that's the 14th year in a row we've done. We do one in Dayton and one in Richmond every year. We call it the Songwriter Solstice. And kind of the origin was we just wanted to give everybody a great show where people really listen and uh in a nice venue and have it like a holiday party for songwriters. And that's basically what it is. It's got the best vibes and uh wonderful, most talented musicians, and it's a great event every year. Sort of like, you know, you have a year of sadness a lot of times playing shows where people aren't listening and you know, frustrating things, and then you recharge your musical batteries with a great night, like the two nights of solstice. Because it's just it's special people that play and special people that go. And uh, I really love that event. And I hope that even when I'm dead, that event will still go on. That'd be a good legacy for me and Joe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right on, man. Well, I hope it goes on too. I hope you I'd love to see you do more, maybe a a winter and a summer solstice. Happy night.
SPEAKER_03We have done some other ones. Yeah, we haven't uh doing various uh different causes and stuff. So it's a possibility for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right on. Well, I I'm a huge fan of the listening room uh setting. Um that's why you know we naturally, after we got wrapped up the shows outside, started going to the songwriter in the round. Um again, I I'm I'm not I mean, I I'm I I've been a bedroom musician for the most part. It's just something I've always been passionate about. But I I can't sit here and say I've been, you know, gig and strong for for 40 years, even though I've been playing the guitar that long. So I've kind of come to this a little bit later, but I just absolutely love um the songwriter in the round format. Um, I love how it allows you to try material, um, hone the craft. And um, I feel like on a good night, um because it's such an intimate setting, uh, I like to think of uh it's kind of like Paul Harvey, you know, the story behind the story where the the audience is kind of a fly on the wall and gets to listen to what's going through the artist's brain.
SPEAKER_03Um that's I'm I'm more than a songwriter, I'm a troubadour. You know, I love telling stories. And I always say the best drug you can give a songwriter is your attention. And so to have a room really listening, like laughing at your jokes, because you know, my voice is rough, uh, my songs are good, but uh, you know, the in-between the song stuff is really fun, and that's where I connect to the audience. So in a lot of places you don't get to, like if I'm playing at a bar, you don't really get to connect because they just want you to play cover songs and be background music. So yeah, to have a listening room where I can like tell my stories, tell jokes, I'm just kind of a naturally funny person. And um, you know, it's just a great way to connect to the audience. And then it makes the songs mean more to them when they hear the stories behind them. And once they know you as a person, you know, uh the songs become way more important to them.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I mean, that's kind of the the thought that the bomb that's kind of detonated in my brain. Um, as a songwriter, you know, who's written, you know, hundred at least a hundred songs that I ended up spending all that time to put on the computer and record and everything. I'm pretty proud of that material. You know, it's it's obviously not commercially successful, but um it it's meant a lot to me and it's been a form of of meditation, very therapeutic. And I I just have recently realized that I really only did maybe 51% of the work. As a songwriter, the other 49% of the work is, as I like to use the analogy of fish and set in the hook to the audience. There's there's a whole side to the songwriter aspect. It's almost like improv or or or being a comedian in terms of the beats and the rhythms of how you talk about. When you write a song, you've got an idea, but great songwriters, the John Primes of the world, the Steve Polts, the, you know, the folks that are are really fantastic storytellers. Um half of what they're almost more important than the song, because that's kind of the requisite, is how you get people's attention to even pay attention to the song. And and that's where my focus has really been. And and it's hard work. It's sitting in front of a mirror practicing. It feels so awkward and stupid, but man, it it makes a huge difference in the overall presentation. I I I'm excited to to to um kind of move into that and explore. But but I again I I totally agree. The songwriter in the round, the listening room, the ability. I love that that you said, you know, given uh an artist um your attention is the greatest drug because I love the the the the the you know um I have a uh an a family friend who's who likes to say, you know, uh an audience of one can be a packed house. Um, you know, it's uh on any day of the week, I'd rather pay for two or three people that are listening than than a hundred people in a a bar or more that just don't care. I mean, clearly. So anyways, um I knew we'd be off to the races. That's why I wanted to talk to you. Um why don't you tell well uh you know, tell us a little bit about you, where you're from, and um, you know, what what you do? Who are you, Kevin Manner?
SPEAKER_03Um well I was uh born in Kentucky originally, uh in northern Kentucky, grew up there, um moved up to Ohio with a girl, been in Dayton for the most part ever since. I did uh live in the Caribbean for a little bit. Um here to Ohio. Uh I have four daughters that I helped raise. We have kind of a blended family with uh the girls live in two separate houses, but we all work together and uh make it all work. So they're all wonderful people. So I'm mostly a stay-at-home dad and a musician. Um but I yeah, I do gotta find I do need to find a job here soon, or unfortunately. So I'm still uh looking for work. But it's really hard for me to get a job when all I care about is music. You know what I mean? And so it's like really hard for me to care about other stuff. But I do my best because I need to get a job. Um, so yeah, uh I write songs uh that are really personal to me, and I do like to tell the stories behind them. Um and sometimes I'm just absurd when I write. So I I have kind of a bipolar repertoire of songs where like deeply personal and then deeply weird. But uh the kind of the defining moment of my life, or one of them anyway, is in 2017 I was at a uh surgery to remove a tumor uh that was close to my aorta near my heart. And when they cut me open and cut the tumor out, it um it cut a nerve to my vocal cord and it paralyzed my vocal cord. That's why my voice is rough like this. So um so like for six months I couldn't talk at all, couldn't sing. Um and then they gave me another surgery where they um put an implant in my neck, pushing my vocal cords together. And the crazy part was is that I had to be awake for it. So I was awake for that surgery as they were inserting something into my neck because you have to talk at the end, like so let them know that it's uh it worked. And so that's been my crazy. So I did that and then uh voice therapy for a couple years, and um that's where I am now. So I mean I miss my old voice, it was really high, like Neil Young. And uh I sort of became more like Tom Waits. And what's weird is a lot of people like my new voice better. But uh, you know, I I miss the old one, so I'm still partial to that. But just to be able to perform again after that, you know, when I didn't have a voice for six months, um, you know, that that means the world to me. I love being on stage and I love you know telling stories for people. So uh but yeah, that to to get my voice back was was really an amazing thing. And just been playing ever since. Um really have had very few problems with it. Uh my endurance is worse now. I can only sing about 35, 45 minutes if I'm lucky. Um and like talking to you now, there's a lot of talking though. It'll wear my voice out for today, probably. Okay. I'll try to take it easy on you. Yeah, better than nothing. That's why I didn't get a cup of water. But it's better than nothing, you know. It used to be my girls had to like if we were going through a drive-thru or something, they'd have to order through me for me because I had no voice. And so yeah, I was really glad to get the surgery done. But it was it was rough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that that would be rough, um, you know, not being able to order in the d the drive-thru because you'd open the bag and and and you you would you wouldn't have uh exactly what you wanted in there. That would that would really suck.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was it it was rough. It was very hard.
SPEAKER_00I'm kidding. Um so uh how'd you get started? What what are give me some uh early influences?
SPEAKER_03What when you know um growing up, I I listened to a lot of my mom's old records. So I listened to Neil Young a lot. Probably the biggest.
SPEAKER_01He's okay.
SPEAKER_03He's all right. Um Tracy Chapman's fast car album kind of blew my mind. I was about probably 10 years old and I heard that album, and it like opened up a whole new world to me. I I always blamed Tracy Chapman for making me a folk singer because uh those songs just spoke to me so much. It was really, you know, it wasn't my life at all. I was a suburban kid, and uh just to hear like a whole different world, and I just got drawn into it, and I and I loved those songs so much. So she became a big influence on me. As I got a little older, I started listening to a lot of Leonard Cohen, and um, so he's been my favorite for a long time. So those are probably my biggest influences, and I really love Warren Zevon too. Um yeah, I I I do kind of try to emulate him a little bit as well. Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, a little eclectic, and and we must be probably similar in age because I want to say Tracy Chapman was like one of the first CDs I ever owned. You know, I had a shiny new CD player, and um, I think I got, you know, a Jimi Hendrix CD, and uh um my mom was the big uh kind of the the musical uh one of the family, my dad not so much, but uh yeah, I I remember probably about 10 years old. It was uh Tracy Chapman with the fast car uh track on there that yeah, I had on auto re and I couldn't believe when I saw who she was with that voice, uh just so and and to see that song come back in such a huge way better than ever. Yeah, good for her. Never quite not quite as good as the original, but um it's a it's just it's a timeless uh song for sure. So that album I just love. Yeah, I should go back and listen to it because I listened to the whole thing too, and I know there was more than just Fast Car, but Fast Car was and is just an absolute standout of a of us. It's just a an incredible piece of music. But um, but yeah, very, very cool, very cool. So um uh all always pretty much. I mean, I'm I'm a big Neil Young fan as well. Um, you know, gosh, dude's what, 50 albums? I mean, there's so much music there and and such a history. Um, have you always kind of been more uh of the folk uh singer-songwriter? Are you doing any electric guitar playing or or um um any other instruments or just kind of always in that that folk Troubadour-esque style from day one?
SPEAKER_03It's I kind of play rock music on folk instruments. Like I consider the songs I play more folk rock or like Americana, and but I've always preferred acoustic instruments and I'll play an electric every now and again, uh just messing around. Um yeah, I play guitar, I play a little bit of keyboard, I can play a Glock and spiel a little bit as well. Those are my and I play harmonica. Um but yeah, I do try and do a little bit of rock and roll in my in my songs, so it's kind of a weird mix, I guess. And I've been in bands, and when I've been in bands, they've been mostly rock bands. Yeah, I guess I I folk folk rock is probably my my uh primary genre.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, same here. I I I you know every now and again I'll have a a song that that sounds like it should be on the acoustic with very minimal instrumentation, but almost always I'm thinking about it as a full arrangement with bass and drums and and electric guitar and and um you know at its core is is uh you know an acoustic guitar. But um I'm I I frequently catch myself at the end of the song, you know, 30 beats per minute faster than when I started. Uh so yeah, I I like to kind of get after it on the acoustic as well. But um very cool. So um let's talk a little bit about uh, you know, um I'm sure you have more than a few albums out if you've been doing it this long. You you have a uh a a breadth of of um um um you know releases and stuff like that. Um you know what how how would you define your sound? I mean, uh is it kind of close to those influences, or do you have any milestone um albums that you would point to as as some of your best work, or are you still kind of uh improving your craft, would you say?
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, I've done four albums now. Um the last one I did with my record label, and then I've done mostly singles with them. Uh I work with an Italian producer who um just does wild things with my songs, and it it's not it's never stuff that I would have thought to do, but then it always works somehow. So a lot of my stuff on Spotify now is uh this he kind of like has a spaghetti western sound to him, and it's it's very interesting and unusual that you don't hear very much. Um my favorite album, um, it's called The Endless Traveler. That's the one I made right before I lost my voice. So I want to do a recording of my original voice, and really I didn't know I was gonna live through the surgery, so I wanted to get my my best songs uh recorded. I did that in uh with uh Real Love Studios here in uh Dayton. Uh so that's probably my best album, and it is very rock and roll, um heavy. There is some uh slow stuff, but mostly even that will become heavy at some point. So uh that that's probably my best one. Uh the first one I made was called The Death of Poetry. I made it when I was too young and uh just I don't really love it. Um and I bought a thousand copies of it, and I still have box after box of it. Never buy a thousand copies of a record, that's good life advice. Um yeah, that that that's probably the the best one was Endless Traveler.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Cool. And and so I mean you talked about influences, but um, you know, what what are you writing about? What uh what what motivates you um when you're approaching uh, you know, a a a blank piece of paper? What what gets you started? Do you write on the guitar or do you have vocals running through your head? What's your process?
SPEAKER_03Um typically what I do is I will either meditate or get in my hot tub and a line will come to me. Almost like a lightning bolt. And this is how I've written almost all my songs. So I'll get a line that pops into my head um that I just feel like I'm an antenna for, you know, I just picking up what the universe has given me, and then I'll uh craft the whole song around that. And so, like, you know, my skill and expertise comes after the inspiration. You know, what I apply to that has popped into my head. Um, so that's pretty much it. I'll always get a hook a hook first, and then I write the song around it. Um and I just need to get in the right mindset to do it. So like sometimes I'll go to the woods and just sit quietly. Uh something, like I said, I get in my hot tub or I'll meditate and uh usually something happens. Sometimes it doesn't, you know, and I'm just messing around and and don't get anything done. But uh that's that's my typical process.
SPEAKER_00Um so describe, you know, uh meditating, you know, at least for me, the idea is to kind of give the brain a rest and um slow it down a little bit, uh, and it's a subtle change when you when you come out of a meditation, but but just the very act of of letting it not go a million miles an hour gives gives you I I like people describe it as like a bicep curl for the brain. It just kind of lets it chillax a little bit. And here you're saying, you know, in that moment of of not necessarily clarity, because we're always trying to still the mind and it's an impossibility, um, a bolt of blue comes out of left field and it's like, wait, is is that kind of I mean, describe what that what that inspiration or give maybe even give me an example of of what that well yesterday I was trying I was driving, I you know, my my mind was kind of blank.
SPEAKER_03Um the line that popped into my head was you have red flags but I'm colorblind. And I thought that was clever. So that's like that's the kind of stuff, but I haven't written the song yet, but that's the line that popped into my head. A lot of times I'll just save that recorded in my phone and then write it at a later date. Cool. Trying to think of other examples of that. Let's see here. Pretty much all my songs don't I'm I'm blanking. So uh the song I recorded last night. Go ahead. Um there's a song I I recorded last night. It was one of my old songs where I just mess around with it. Uh called The End of the End. And um the line that popped into my head was You smiled at the apocalypse. And then I wrote a whole song, basically apocalyptic. And uh, you know, the line the verse becomes and I thought I saw heaven when I kissed your lips. We stared right into a solar eclipse, and you smiled at the apocalypse. And um, and that's kind of like how it happens. So I'll just get a line and I'll write the whole song around that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So is the line um when you say hook, the the hook is uh is is um prose, uh, or is the hook a pe uh a a riff on the phone?
SPEAKER_03Usually it'll come with melody too, yeah. So I'll get a good line and I'll it'll have a rhythm to it, and I'll just kind of either and usually I will use the melody that pops into my brain because I feel like I'm gonna get the muse mad at me if I don't, you know, or I'll get a line or I'll get even a couple lines. And um, you know, um so that's uh yeah, I I try to use what the muse has given me because I don't want to anger them. And uh and and so I I I you know and there's sometimes stuff will haunt me for years and I just will never write the song. And then finally like uh it'll come to me, you know, uh and I'll just kind of store those lines in my brain and store those melodies and uh you know eventually they work out. So like one of my early songs it was um it's just like you predicted the wounds were all self inflicted. And like that line was in my head for years until I finally found the right right piece of music for For it and and the right lyrics around it. Stuff like that. It's just, you know, I just now I'm I just if I get a flash like that, I'll type it into my phone and save it for later. Or if I have the time, I'll write the whole song out then. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's always fascinating because there's so many different ways to skin the cat. Uh, you know, and and everybody has a a different process. I think one thing that most people that I've spoken to are in agreement with is that um, again, to use the fishing analogy, you kind of you're out there fishing, you're you're you're waiting for that that inspiration. Sometimes it comes, sometimes it doesn't. Uh, but the first and foremost requisite is that you gotta you gotta put in the time and be there willing to receive. Um if you're if you're not waiting, uh it's just not gonna come. I mean, you have to put in the effort. And then how you go from uh being willing and and ready to receive um is is anybody's you know guess. I mean, there's there's a bunch of different ways to do it. I I tend to mumble. I'll um I come the lyrics kind of come a little bit later for me. I'm always really uh focused on the interplay between the melody and whatever the chord progression is, and and that's just something that has always been something I've gravitated to. I'm slightly I think I have a little bit more maybe poppy influences. I grew up with uh, you know, uh the Smiths and the Cure and REM, uh more of those alternative rock things, a little less of the folky psychedelia stuff, but um but one thing that those bands always did really well was focus on um really beautiful uh harmony and melody. And and so when I hear that, like, mmm, I'm I'm I'm mumbling this, and then it's kind of like what what what are some of those little phrases like you said that maybe I've written that fit here, and and then it's like you hear it and you're like, that's locked. It's like that that can never change now. And and I just I love that process. But um, you know, regardless, you you gotta be putting in the time, and and the more you do it, the more uh more the big man uh tends to to reward you, so to speak.
SPEAKER_03It helps me if I drink just a little bit, like if I have just one glass of wine or one beer. It just seems to help my walls come down in my brain. I just need to access a different part of my brain to get to the songwriting part. And I sometimes just have a little help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I mean, I'm I'm quite sure that there's scientific fact behind that. Um it's people have been doing that for for time uh you know, immemorial. So um so um yeah, tell me a little bit more about um, you know, what you got going now. You mentioned uh the record label. Um what uh what's the story behind that? Um and then I kind of want to get into um the current state of of uh music and phones and how difficult it is to compete with, you know, um these things that give you microdoses of dopamine and and have uh conditioning people to not have more than five seconds of of of uh you know brain power to give a musician the time of the day. I mean, we we started talking a little bit about that, but um I want to get into that discussion because um I'm not ready, I'm not ready to to to give up. It's it's it's not looking good in the bottom of the ninth inning, but it I'm not ready to give up. But well, where well tell let's talk first about the record label. Um where is that based out of? Is that also an Ohio?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's a Columbus label called Think Re Records. And uh someone I've known a long time owns it. And uh they have me on and they hooked me up with this producer named Piero. He's an Italian guy who's pretty cool. Um and so that is you guys met or do you do everything uh remote? Never met him. I always think it'd be fun to go to Italy. You gotta go to Italy, you should at least come on. I would love to. They have a good wine there. It's my dream to go to Italy. Um my mom's name is Pataclia, so I'm I'm a generation removed from Italian, uh my Italian heritage. Um so yeah, I uh, you know, what you say about like people losing their attention span is very true. I've decided to shorten my songs. I'll no longer play intros because you play an intro, you can just see everyone leaving or losing, you know, they've already swiped up to the next thing. Uh, you know, I basically you take all the filler out of your song, you know, and just leave the good parts. Or, you know, so I would never write a five-minute song anymore. I try and keep them under three minutes. And it's really sad to say because I mean some of my best songs have always been really long. Um, but yeah, it's just a different world. And if you want people to pay attention, then you need to not lose them right away. Um unbelievable. It is hard, you know. And and what's weird is I've actually started writing some kids songs and playing for kids because kids pay attention. And so I played my first show for kids and they went nuts, and everyone was like on every word. And like, this is so much better than playing for eight people on their phone not listening to me, you know. And so I don't know if that's the direction I'm headed. I'm I'm feeling like this pull towards kids' music. Um, but then I sort of feel like I'm betraying my adult songs that I've written over the last 25 years, you know. Uh if I do that, and I don't want to be thought of as a kids' musician necessarily, but it's way more fun to play for kids. It's the songwriting has been super fun too. So really that's been my big focus lately. I've written about 10 kids songs here in the last two months. I love that. It's it's great fun, but you know, it's like I I have to be conflicted by everything I do. It gives me a lot of joy, but again, then I'm like, um, you know, I'm I feel like I'm betraying my songs in a way, my original.
SPEAKER_00No, I I there's no reason why you can't do both. And and in fact, um the night that you guys played this most recent show, Chad Wansick was there. Um, and he's uh a hell of a guitar player. Yeah, he's he's amazing, amazing um style, um, really interesting lyrics. And uh again, I I'm not I can't quote him. I I want to have him on the podcast at some point to talk about, but I believe he's done some um some kids' music as well and has daughters, like I have a daughter as well. Um, and man, it's just uh it's just so pure. It's so pure. And just like you said, I I I I you don't have to say anymore the fact that uh we were you know adults couldn't care less about what we're trying to tell them because we're losing the battle against the iPhone. Yeah, but the kids like will eat up if you're talking about a you know a Shell Still Silverstein-esque uh story. I just love that that um so that's I I I I can see why that would be so alluring.
SPEAKER_03I'll send you some of my kids' songs when we're done here, and you can see I'll let you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right on, man. Um I I love it. I I it's I think I mean there's no reason why you can't add that to the catalog, but um, what does it look like um talking about challenges? Um what does it look like uh even being on a label? I mean, you know, nowadays it's so easy to to uh self-distribute and do everything independently. Um, you know, I I'm gonna guess you join a label because you're in a sense um part of a collective and there's strength in numbers because in terms of uh viability and and and being lucrative, I don't know that there's no money to be made anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean there's no money to be made anymore. You might as well get the support. You know, like 10 years ago, probably wouldn't have been on a label because you could make some money still. But nowadays it's just it doesn't seem like there's any money to be made anyway. So you might as well have somebody helping you and somebody who's pushing you a little bit and will give you recording time and stuff like that. So for me, it's like, yeah, I mean, we're splitting nothing basically. You know, what difference does it make if I do it by myself or do it with somebody that helps me? Um you know, I'm I I I like being on my label. They're they're nice people and uh uh yeah, it's not like uh a big part of my musical life, really. Just um when I get songs recorded well or record me, we'll put them up, uh, you know. Um I kind of lost my train of thought here.
SPEAKER_00So well, I'm just curious with with the with you know, I'm curious about the label. It's something that we've kind of been throwing, throwing around uh potentially I'm looking at it more from like a collective standpoint, like the hey, you know, we're we're trying to establish a reputation here. We want to put out some good music and and um, you know, it's it's just like um not a band of brothers or anything like that, but I mean if you have uh um you know some some talent, a collective, you know, and and and I just think there could be some value. And absolutely, what difference does it make uh when there's no money to be made one way or the other? Um you you can join join together and and um say, hey, you know, we we believe in this artist, we believe in this artist. It's it kind of happens already. Um, but you know, to kind of formalize that, I I just think that's kind of a neat idea. I'm I'm interested in. I'm just curious, um, you know, what what it looks like in terms of, okay, so you get a budget maybe to help, you know, go into a studio and finish some tracks. Um, but what uh what uh what else goes into it? Just uh some light PR?
SPEAKER_03I mean um, yeah, they'll do track releases for me and uh try and get me on podcasts and try and help me uh get attention on Spotify. I had a song that um they've put on this service called Jimendo, which is like a European streaming service that has over 350,000 views and 10,000 downloads. So that's pretty cool. You know, they've they've gotten me some good attention that way. Yeah, as Guy Clark said, there ain't no money in poetry, that's what sets the poet free. It's kind of like, you know, it's just it's you might as well have fun and work with people you like. You're not gonna do well, probably, you're not gonna succeed in music anymore. So at least have a good time. And as I say, at least I wasted my life on something uh something fun like music. You know? At least I at least I had a good time. At least it's been fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a tough, it's a tough business. I mean, um, you've been you've been doing it a while. I mean, w what uh you know, I again I I don't have um I'm not a historian. I came here after my my military service, uh retired to my grandfather's farm. Um and uh so I don't know what the scene looks like in the 80s, the nineties, the 2000s, the 2010s. I assume you were playing music in the afternoon post-2000s.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right in the early 2000s. Um, here's what I noticed now is that young people today are much better than they used to be. And so, like coming up, it used to be like the young people would learn from the older people, and they learn how to be professionals. They would have their awkward stage, and their songs are, you know, you could see they have some time, they have some real potential. And it was almost endearing to see them, you know, in that. And nowadays, kids are like all very almost professional already, just as they're starting off. And I don't know if it's more access to music lessons, like with YouTube and stuff, or uh people use AI songs and are like writing with AI, or you know, basically letting AI make a song for them and stealing it, you know, stuff like that. So I feel like the quality of people I'm up against or that I'm playing with has gone up by a whole lot. And even, you know, it used to be I felt very comfortable with my level of talent. And nowadays it's like, man, these kids are all awesome. Um, and you know, I'm not a smooth, professional, polished player. I have a rough voice, I'm not a great guitarist, but I have authenticity. And so that's my thing that I have more than them. You know, like when I sing about whiskey and addiction and pain and suffering, it is real. And, you know, and you can't always say that for the kids today. So, you know, it just kind of depends on what you're looking for. If you like young, attractive people, it seems like that's uh the music industry nowadays, but I still like haggard, rough people that have seen some shit. So uh I you know, it's just a matter of finding your audience, and I don't always do that either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And again, we we were talking before we got started. I was like, okay, we need to stop because I want to make sure that we re- re-record this discussion. But, you know, and we kind of alluded to this whole um challenge of getting people to listen. I mean, um, that that has always been difficult, but but it seems even more acute with the phone that is very, very effective at stealing our attention and and and in some ways brainwashing us. I mean, I I it can't be uh good for the development of of the brain. I think, you know, we're starting to see uh evidence just show just how devastating it can be for a young person's brain to to get you know wired to this thing so early they don't when they're in that that developmental stage um to be getting those microdoses, it you know, and I I remember growing up uh or many years ago getting turned on to a book called Last Child in the Woods, and it talked about how um you know kids, you know, we're we've we're we're human animals, you know. We we we've for years for for generations lived, you know, in the woods and and were attached to nature and our other animals. And and I know it sounds foo-foo, but it's true, and now people are so disconnected um from the natural world. Um, I just if you believe that we evolved a certain way and and we're being brainwashed a completely different way, it's not a too far of a leap to believe that eh doesn't bode well for for what's next, you know. So um I go, I I'm off on a diet tribe, but but the reality is again, we we're we are entertainers. Um do you not think that at some point people are gonna wise up and and be like, you know what, I want something real.
SPEAKER_03You know, I think there's starting to become a backlash to AI. I'm hearing tons of people that just I'm never listening to AI, I'm not gonna use it. Um and so I think there is gonna be a backlash. I mean there is gonna be like a market for people that are authentic, or at least I hope there would. You know, like AI just had a number one song on country charts, and I'm like, I've never had a number one song, which is crazy to me that um people would support that. But I do think that there are uh there's like a growing number of people that realize one, AI is shitty for the environment, two, it reflects our own mediocrity back at us and limits human expression and creativity. And um, and three, it's stealing, it's theft. You know, uh but they're the AI learn from songwriters like me and uh you know, great songwriters of the past, and we don't get any credit for it, or don't get any revenue for it, you know, so it's that. So I hope that more and more people will turn away from AI, especially and listen to the human song matters. Um I wrote a song called Milner vs. the machine once, where like this uh robots came down, and to save humanity I had to write a song that um was better than the one that they created with their machine. And so what they did was they made a song and played it for everybody, then they had me write a song, and then they had the world vote on whose song was better. And the people all voted for the machine, and then the AI killed us all. And so that was sort of that's how the song ended.
SPEAKER_01I love it.
SPEAKER_03Was like, thanks to me, now you're all dead. And um But yeah, people would vote for their own demise just because you know they couldn't lie. So I d I just think that cell phones and are gonna go down. That's one of the worst things that ever happened to humanity. And I think AI is also gonna be a huge mistake, but I'm not good at technology and I'm not a technology person, so maybe I'm biased, but I um wish I wasn't addicted to my cell phone and I try to lose use AI as little as possible. So that's kind of my take on all of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I uh a thousand percent agree um in terms of the phone being um you know just bad bad news, um, you know, and and uh I just I feel you know kind of fear for what uh what's what's next as far as that's concerned. But um, you know, it really um it's very kind of insidious because no nobody looks, you know, we we all use it and uh here it is. We all also agree that you know something's not right with it. And um, you know, I guess a little bit more uh closer to our chest is this this um challenge of of vying for people's attention, you know. And again, this seems to be a a common theme when I ask, you know, the musicians that are traveling through, and it's like, you know, how's it going? It's like, man, it's tough. It's tough to get an audience, it's tough to to um to to get uh people to to give us the time of day. It's almost like uh the audience needs permission from some higher power to say, hey, this person's worthy. And and and maybe that that those are the cards that the the big record labels hold these days and create these stars. But the music rarely the best music is is the popular stuff, you know, and and and and uh so it just it's fascinating to me that um, you know, we live in an age where uh you know, again, it's just so hard to get people to listen to your music, but they'll listen to Steely Dan all day long, you know, or or or or something, something they've heard before. And and and and I don't get it. I don't personally get it. I know I'm kind of weird in that way. I want to hear, just like with wines, I want to try something I've never had before that's tied to a place in a land, um, you know, a piece of property, um, and I hope there's other people out there, but the music as well. I want to hear somebody play something that's from their soul. I want to see it come through. And and I just I really hope there is a backlash. We're certainly gonna stoke that flame and and try and be as long as we can uh supportive of of the people that are doing that thing and and show the greater public that it's cool to put your middle finger up to the AI and and here and listen to to people play their play their tunes. But um, you know, it's it's a tough situation. Um, it does kind of hearken back to the challenge of the performer to get people engaged. Um tell me a little bit about uh, you know, I it's so fascinating to me because I've I've been thinking about the same thing about the structure of my songs. I'm like, yeah, I like to do some finger work there, but you're losing the audience. You got it's the song's gotta be almost two minutes or a minute and a half better, you know. Um tell me a little bit more about that sad reality.
SPEAKER_03Well, for me as somebody who's not at the world's best guitarist, it's not necessarily that uh, you know, if I was a better guitarist, I would probably be a little more bitter that I can't show off my skills. But I can I I can fumble around pretty well. But yeah, you really if you know it if you want to try and make money in music, it's not even a whole song anymore that's gonna get you paid. It's like a clip of a song, you know, and it's just it's really weird to it is weird to get uh you know you gotta try and find people's attention. That's so fast. Like I'll look at my statistics and people will watch two seconds of my videos usually, and like that's very hurtful. Uh you know, you see like two two seconds is all I have. And so, like what I do, I'll I'll I put a hat on. I have a big giant hat, and when I go on stage, that'll at least give me five seconds of people's attention. And I try and play a great song first, you know, and that's how I hook people in. So that's what I would say to get people's attention. Have some kind of silly gimmick or something that'll draw their eye just because it's so hard right now. And then don't let go once you have their attention, you know. So you you gotta be careful with pauses when you're playing. You can't tell too long of stories, you you know, you gotta you gotta make sure you keep their attention. And um and that's that's pretty much my strategy. I don't know, like I said, now that's why it's kind of led me into playing for kids more because kids really listen. So you know, uh, it's it's it's hard, but it's not impossible. And like if you go to a listening room like we had at uh at New Boswell for Solstice, you know, you can have a great night still. Um but they're few and far between. And and you really what I spent a long time doing was beating myself up for not succeeding in music. And and now as an old older person, or middle-aged person, I should say, it's like winning the lottery, is you know, you can't be mad at yourself for not winning the lottery. You know, so um and that's kind of helped me come to peace with music. You know, I'm less tortured by that. And I just said, you know what, I'm just gonna do the best fucking songs I can do. And if people come to a great, and if not, those would be songs for me. Like, um, I like listening to myself. I know it's weirdly narcissistic, but when I go to like an MRI, I'll listen to myself and it keeps me calm. So, like you said, like my songs are my meditations. So I realized that I'm doing this for me. And then I also have this weird vision that when I die, I'm gonna end up in like a listening room with all the great songwriters of the past. And so when I write songs, I think about them and like, well, Townsman's I don't like this song when I'm dead, you know, and and that's kind of stuff. So um and so that yeah, that's that's a line I have in that song. I always like to quote myself. I know that's very arrogant, Sonna, but um um, you know, I'll take the stage each night till they tell me that I can't. So I don't write songs for talent shows, I write songs for Townsman's Ant. And so that's how like how I feel about it. It's like, you know, it just I do the best for me. It's great if I have some listeners, and I'm doing it for the art of songwriting because it's a dying thing and I don't want it to die. And I just do my best.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome, man. I love that. I mean, yeah, that's it's it's a great way to frame it. I love I love that you've been able to um, you know, pigeonhole it like that. Um it definitely gives me something to to to think on and and reflect on and and I have a lot of the same similarities. I've come to that sim similar conclusion that even at the end of the day, if if n you know nobody hears these songs, we all want, you know, people to connect. I talk about that all the time. Like that's that's the great gift is is when you can say something and and get somebody to feel an emotion and and hopefully bring some peace or you know, joy to them. Yeah, I mean that's a songwriter's job, you know.
SPEAKER_03A lot of men especially have a hard time expressing their feelings. And so like, you know, I think my songs, and you listen to them, they'll help other people like have the emotions that they're bearing. You know, they hear somebody else with their same pains and struggles, and like that helps somebody let it out, you know. And so I just think that's that's our role as a song. We have songwriters get to see the world a little bit differently, but we need to share that with people that need it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Again, Kevin, you're dropping all kinds of great, great wisdom. I appreciate that. I I you know I it's just something I've always been around. I I I haven't spent much time thinking about um being uh an outlet for for others, other men in particular that that may not um be able to um express certain emotions sometimes, depending on how they were raised and and and everything else. But uh, but that's true. I mean, in a lot of respects, the art, art's uh uh purpose is to um explain the unexplainable. I mean, our our vocabulary is quite limited when you think of the range of emotions and things like that. So that's that's a deep thought for sure as well. I I love that. I haven't ever thought of it from that Troubadour-esque thing. It's it's for me, it's been more of that personal meditation. I do it, I love to say art for art's sake. You know, I I was a musician in college, joined the military, and I can tell you the military is not a breeding ground for artistic development. I bet. Um I had I had every reason to stop playing, and and yet, you know, it it's in me, and I've always enjoyed doing it, and I did it for my own uh my my own peace of mind, and and and I'm I'm glad that I I stuck with it and and it's brought me so much joy, and hopefully some other people joy. I I love sharing music with my daughter now. I'm sure you can relate. So that's that's awesome, man.
SPEAKER_03I talked to my daughter last night and she said, I was like, I'm sorry I'm always playing guitar. And she's like, that's okay, Dad, it's your passion. I'm like, it's so cool that she knew that it was you know that I have a passion, you know, and um she's just a very smart, wise little girl. She's only seven years old, she's very wise beyond her years.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my little Charlie. That's kind of um when um last year, Charlie, she's my well, she was five at this time, um she was diagnosed with metastatic brain cancer. Um they told us that she had um and so we she had to have a surgery, uh a brain surgery to get the tumor out. But then when they took the tumor out, it was not metastatic. They misdiagnosed her. Um, so that was a great relief, obviously, that she did not have brain cancer. It's really hard going through that.
SPEAKER_00Um I can't even imagine, man.
SPEAKER_03It was it was the most crueling, awful time of my life. And then it was just a relief.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I'm so sure.
SPEAKER_03But I wrote a song about that experience, and like I've seen people, like people you would never think, cry, just weeping, you know, and just it's about like the love of my, you know, it's just like so many feelings that people just, you know, not everybody like I said, you gotta see the world a little different as a songwriter and um and help others kind of feel through you if you can. And so yeah, like that's that's been really hard, but um, she's doing great now, and uh she's just the most wonderful person. So uh yeah, she's very special to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm glad to hear that, man. I yeah, I'm kind of a softy, so I yeah, I might play that one. Don't don't please don't. I know I'll start crying.
SPEAKER_03But you know, like it's okay to grow. That's that's why, you know, it's we're we're like so we're always bearing our feelings and like we're watching our phones every you know, like just to not feel or not think. And it's okay to feel and it's okay to think, you know.
SPEAKER_01So I I it's part of being part of being human, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we forget that. We forget that. Um I did want to ask one, you know, we talked a little bit, you mentioned, you know, the younger artists are a little bit more savvy. They've got YouTube, they've got potentially AI, there's a lot more tools. Um, they're able to come up to speed a lot faster without having a mentor. Things again that I I really hadn't given too much thought about. Um, what's your sense um of the scene? Um to me, in this part of Indiana, I'm quite impressed by the number of people coming out of the woodworks with their guitars. There's there's you know, you don't necessarily think eastern Indiana is a bastion of of folk or country folk or folk rock. Um I don't know, you know, Western Ohio is probably similar. Not, you know, not not a lot of people um give it a whole lot of th thoughts. You know, it's not Chicago, it's not Detroit, it's not Milwaukee, it's not some of these other towns, maybe a little bit, and yet there's an undercurrent of bluegrass and and country and and um so I'm I'm impressed by the musicianship that's happening. Um it's certainly not a ghost town. There, there are some some people that are hungry. Um, and again, it gives me hope that there is that backlash starting. What's it like in Dayton and and Cincinnati in your neck?
SPEAKER_03I'm always blown away by how good the people are. You think like, you know, there's not going to be that many talented people playing. And every time I go to an open mic, there's somebody who just blows me away how good they are. And so I I think when there's uh you're in a place where there's not a lot to do, you play music, especially like I noticed in Richmond, Indiana, there's so many of those people that really can play. Um, and it's just uh, you know, that you don't necessarily have a lot to do in that area of the world. So you sit around and play music together. And I think uh in Dayton, I can't explain it, but we've had so many great songwriters come through here. And um, you know, like um Todd Widener, who's in this band called Shrug, that was the biggest band in Dayton in the 90s, one of the greatest songwriters you'll ever hear in your life. Um Guided by Voices came, you know, starting in Dayton. A lot a lot of great songwriters. Um, you know, uh were we're from Dayton originally, so I don't know what it is, I don't know if it's the water or what, but I'm always blown away by how good people are uh in this town.
SPEAKER_00Um so yeah, and do you feel like that's still happening? Are there still people um surprisingly coming up?
SPEAKER_03It's the young people that are are surprising me the most nowadays. Like uh, you know, they're getting the shows that I used to get, and I'm like, I don't blame them at all. They're like very talented people, you know. So um I mean there are you know, there's usually they play a mix of both, typically. Um I'm like 95% original, five percent covers, and uh they seem to be more like 50-50. But um I don't know, they're very talented a lot of times, and just a lot of good songwriters. So yeah, it's it's it makes it fun, you know. And it's like that solstice event, that's why it's so good. There's so many good songwriters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, well, listen, um we could go on and on. Um, I uh again, I want to thank you for the conversation. Um we are looking forward to having you out for Songwriter in the Round and hopefully it's just the beginning of of more of those gigs. Um I we're about to release uh our entire calendar, and there are some amazing people that are gonna be coming to play there, men and women, and um all from uh all from you know this region of the United States, some Ohio, some uh you know, far uh, I guess west as Indianapolis, but um some really talented singers, songwriters writing their own music. It's what we support. Um and you're gonna fit in obviously very, very well. And I can't wait to hear the show and hopefully not cry. Um but if we do, that's all right. We'll have a a glass of wine afterwards and uh I'm sure it would be wonderful.
SPEAKER_03But can I give you one? I don't know why this random idea has popped into my brain, but I've always wanted to live in an artist colony. And if you ever did something like even for like a week or like a weekend, where you got a bunch of artists together and let them create together, I would be down for that if you have the room for that on your farm. And I don't know why that popped into my head, but that's been one of my biggest dreams is to just be around tons of other creative people and uh and be creative myself. So that's my last random thought of the day.
SPEAKER_00No, I I hope you have more. I love that idea. Um, I can tell you that we are we are very open-minded to um to supporting just those types of things. Um so bring the tent down. Yeah. It's recorded. We we will we will have a conversation more. Um we've got some neat things planned for this year to include a cargo container bar that's gonna be installed just up from the vineyard, but we do have spots. We we eventually eventually are planning it with with any luck um to eventually put some glamping units on there. So I mean um what we're espousing to do, yeah. I mean, we could block out a week and and definitely host something like that. And I can tell you, um, nothing would would bring me greater pleasure and joy to yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_03Well, please keep me in mind. Yeah, because that's one of my absolutely, Kevin.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Well, again, thank you so much. Uh we'll we'll obviously be be uh hyping the show, and uh, I wish you the best of luck um and health and all that good stuff. And uh it's been fun. I can't wait to to meet and talk with you more in person very soon. Yeah, very nice to talk with you today. That was really fun. Thanks, Kevin. We'll talk to you soon, man. See ya.
SPEAKER_03Bye.
SPEAKER_00All right, all right, all right. Always things to be learned. As usual. Um I mean, great insight to the nature of songwriting in 2026. Uh, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. But uh I appreciate Kevin coming on the show. Look forward to having him here at Songwriters Ground and stay tuned for a lot more planned here at the Pilgrimage Wine Company. Cheers, y'all.