Prost! Podcast Episode #21 - Michael Bryant: Insights from Right Bank Selections

Summary:

In the heart of Grand Rapids, Michigan, lies Right Bank Selections, a wine shop that goes beyond the ordinary. In a recent podcast episode, I had the pleasure of chatting with Michael Bryant, the owner, who shared his passion for wine, unique offerings, and the art of pairing wine with food. Join me as we explore his journey in the wine industry and uncover some hidden gems that can elevate your wine experience.

In this conversation, Michael & Scott discuss the detrimental effects of a limited house palette on wine appreciation, particularly focusing on the overconsumption of specific varietals like Cabernet. He draws parallels between wine tasting and other sensory experiences, emphasizing the importance of variety in developing a refined palate.

Takeaways:

• your house palette is the worst enemy of any winemaker
• Cabernet is a common pitfall for wine drinkers
• consistently choosing one type of wine limits appreciation
• variety in wine is essential for developing taste
• drinking only one type of beverage affects overall appreciation
• you can't appreciate subtle flavors if you're used to strong ones
• the palate needs diversity to recognize different notes
• overindulgence in one flavor dulls the senses
• wine appreciation is similar to other sensory experiences
• exploring different wines enhances overall enjoyment

Keywords:

wine, winemaking, Cabernet, New World, taste, appreciation, palate

Sound Bites:

• "your house palette is the worst enemy of any winemaker"
• "once people go down this road of consistently choosing only Cabernet"
• "you can't drink seven espressos every single day"

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I want to talk to him about uh what he's drinking, uh what's going on in the Michigan wine scene, and just uh have a nice chat with him every time that we hang out. It's a good time. So hope you enjoy. Cheers. Hey y'all, I hate to do this, but it's a shameless plug. If you're digging the podcast, you're finding anything interesting, please like and subscribe either at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. Really helps the show, apparently, and uh it'll help other people in the local area hear about these great winemakers and great uh singer-songwriters. So please like and subscribe. Otherwise, y'all enjoy. All right. We are live this morning uh with Michael Bryant from Wright Bank Selections, a fantastic wine shop in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Good morning, sir. How are you today? I'm doing very well. Good morning. Right on, man. Well, thank you for uh agreeing to uh join me on the Pros Podcast. Um yeah, always uh a pleasure to talk with you. Um I met you um so I was uh in the in the Hilton curio uh on business and uh noticed this really awesome wine shop. Um I don't know if you're in there the first time I walked by, but um I kept walking by because I wanted to see what was in the in the window and and finally met you, went in and um, you know, an hour later we're still chatting, and I'm like, oh, okay, I'll come back. Um so I don't know. I just felt like we kind of hit it off right off the bat. And um uh again, we're in Indiana, you're just north of us, big part of the Great Lakes region. Um, you know, there's uh so much going on in uh uh Michigan more so than Indiana for sure. So it's uh it's a great honor to have you on and uh catch up with you, see what's going on and and uh learn a bit uh a bit more about you and share that with the folks. So again, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Thank you. Yeah, it's been fun. The um the Ripe wine shop was uh established kind of like as a just as a luxury more than anything. Um and I've been there two plus years now and and uh sort of steered the collection. More European, plenty of Michigan stuff. But yeah, we we um anybody who knows wine um walks by once, walks by twice, and then they go, oh, wait a minute, they've got something in there, and then uh they stop in and we usually have a good conversation. But yeah, I remember when you came in the first time, because I think we talked multiple multiple times for multiple hours. Um, because I was born in Indiana. I love hearing about great Indiana wine and uh excited about Midwestern wine as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, right on, man. No, it was it was pretty evident. I mean, it's like this is not your average uh wine shop just in the middle of the lobby of a hotel. And to be sure, um we're not unfortunately, I'm not gonna be coming up this uh holiday with my family. The last two years that was kind of our staycation. We came up and really enjoyed Grand Rapids. Um, not being a Midwesterner, like it's kind of the world's art orchester up there. Every time I go somewhere up there, it's a new place I haven't experienced and I and I really enjoy it. Um, but yeah, I mean it's a it's a really beautiful kind of rest restored hotel. Even so, I you know, I was like, wow, those are some really, really solid wines in there. That that's this is I mean, it caught my attention right off the bat. Pretty well stocked, and um, you didn't disappoint. I think we we go up there for right around after Christmas, before New Year, so we're looking for something buy some nice bottles to celebrate. And and uh man, yeah, you've uh really kind of impressed every every time we've been there. But uh uh I I guess um how how's the weather up there? We just got slacked with uh quite a bit of snow in Indiana, the lake effect, a little bit more nort uh kind of in the the northern part of Indiana, but uh I don't think they were were expecting this, especially considering we had our wine club event on Friday night and 150 people showed up and it was it was 60 degrees out. You know, it was just an absolutely gorgeous full moon evening, and little did we know, you know, it'd be subarctic uh in a in a day or two. Did you guys get any snow up there in Grand Rapids?

SPEAKER_04 4:29

We did. Yeah, we still have snow, icy snow on the ground. We have about two inches on the ground right now, and uh it's it was really, really cold yesterday, 20, 20-ish, 25 degrees in the morning when I took the boys to school. So yeah, it's um it was kind of surprising because even for Michigan, this is uh surprising amount.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, but it just went it just it just you know, and you kind of expect it the way the the climate has been. Um really uh it was a beautiful fall, frankly. I mean, we had some absolutely wonderful weather, but um, you know, I think the farmer's almanac saying that it's not gonna be a brutally cold winter. I mean, what are the weather guessers know? But um, but yeah, I mean it definitely uh I don't know. I I like the fourth season. I mean that's part of the one of the reasons why we ended up here. Um it it is uh there's there's a certain nostalgia when the the cold weather creeps in. Not a big fan of the black ice, but uh um but yeah, it was kind of cool to see the the snow come in finally. So um Yeah, I agree. Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids is gorgeous. Yeah. Um so uh one thing I love to do um just as an icebreaker is uh ask uh you know what red, white, or rose. What has Michael Bryant been jamming on lately? What's the most recent wine that spoke to you? I'm sure I'm sure it's a daily occurrence with a uh a man of your stature.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Yeah, yeah. If you ask me today, I'll give you a different answer tomorrow. Um I would say right now, I'm always more into acid-driven wine. So um Very good. I but I guess it's getting cold. So I'm I'll I'll go red. I'll go red for now. But uh last wine that really jumped out at me has been uh uh we've had a really good selection of uh some very cool Italian stuff come in. I've had some uh Rosso de Montalcinos that are that are just just incredible right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

So and where are those uh are those Northern Italy, uh non-Nebbiolo, or uh where whereabouts are those wines coming from?

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Uh Tuscany. So this is Tuscany in the Montalcino region. This is uh 100% Sancho Bays. Yeah, 100% Sancho Bay's. Generally lots of tertiary flavors and you know, like spicy tobacco and um their age three plus years. And the one that I have in the shop right now is from uh Poder Terpi, and it's three years in food, and then eight months in a s in a uh cement egg, and then they do two years additional bottle age. It's just an amazing high uh biodynamic, incredible wine. All right. What's the price point on something like that?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

About 58, almost 60. Okay. All right. Yeah, I kind of knew getting into this because it's it's um it's uh let's see, I'm in Chicago today. Uh so it's nine o'clock my time, and you're already making me thirsty. And I knew this was gonna happen. Um so I'm gonna have to distract myself at the gym for a while because uh it's too early. But anyways, um that sounds awesome. That sounds awesome. Um so yeah, tell me again about right bank. Um, what what is your philosophy? What what is what is right bank all about?

SPEAKER_04 7:38

Yeah, right bank, uh obviously sort of a play on words from the famous Right Bank Bordeaux region. We are on the right bank of the Grand River in beautiful Grand Rapids. Um inside the Amway Grand, which is uh Amway Grand uh Plaza Hotel, which is a curio collection for Hilton. And uh originally started as um a little fancier than what we are now with uh established and and aged wines. That was the original plan. Um I've sort of, I feel like in a positive way, dumbed it down a little bit and made it a little more accessible. You know, people lately are you know, we're all kind of tightening um our budgets a little bit. So we brought the prices down, we're really aggressive on prices, which I think surprises a lot of people when they come to a hotel wine shop, they're expecting to pay thirty dollars for a ten dollar bottle, but yeah, super aggressive on the prices.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Um and because a freaking amazing bottle of wine, you know. I mean that's that's a better value proposition.

unknown 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Nothing's more irritating than getting like a mass-produced, you know, Mandavi wine that that's you know nine dollars at Walmart for 40 bucks at at uh, you know, at the at the so I love that.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Yeah, and because the Amway Grand is all of our distributors, one of our one of the largest buyers in Grand Rapids, we get allocations from Lopez Haredia, we get allocations like Solo Champagne, we get allocations like um just got some um chambo musini and some uh some incredible uh burgundies. And so it's nice to have those selections that people wouldn't expect in a hotel, even though the Amboy Grand is is very nice and fancy hotel. Um it's nice to surprise people with those kinds of things. Um but yeah, that's been the the the originally started as retail. Um we've recently in May added uh by the glass menu, and that's been super successful. So we changed the shop around a little bit since the last time you were there. We've added some seats, um, and we've got uh 10 wines by the glass at any time. We always do our weekend tastings on Fridays and Saturdays, um, but really more focused on European wines. Um, I'm kind of known for having a little chip on my shoulder about Cabernet. I think it's a boring grave. And uh so I I try you know my best to get people into Spanish wines and Portuguese wines to try really cool Italian wines, um, as well as um a lot of Michigan wines, especially from the southwest of Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Okay. Cool. So uh would Bordeaux fall into boring Cabernet, or are you speaking more uh New World Cabernet? No, more New World Cabernet. Yeah, Bordeaux's okay in my book. Right on. Yeah. Um tasting events, um, that's something that I've really enjoyed the heck out of doing, and I'm nowhere near an expert on those wines. Again, we I'm sure I shared with you, um, I was uh uh uh lived in New Orleans for many years, and that's kind of where I got the bug for food and wine. Um very pro-European wine scene as well. In fact, I'd say there were there was not a whole lot of West Coast wine, for better or for worse, but it's just very common because of the the multicultural and ethnic influences of the food and creole and a lot of the French cuisine and and and and just about everything you can throw in the in the kitchen, you know, sink. Um, but uh a lot of a lot of the the chefs there, you know, tend to pair their wines with and have European um uh based cellars. So again, that kind of came natural. And then with my Navy uh travels, um, you know, definitely got that taste for southern uh Italian wine, Sicilian in particular. Um so that's always what I've gravitated towards as well or or are known as well. Um so again, don't don't uh have uh the breadth of knowledge. I was in a Somalia and I um, you know, haven't had the pleasure of working in a wine shop, although I would have loved that because who doesn't like tasting all these interesting wines once you gotta start going down that rabbit hole? But at the winery, I mean we we try to battle our cellar palate by tasting, continuing to taste the great wines of the world. And now we have a um a medium to uh entertain the folks that are interested in our wines by um doing seminars where we would ta teach them about the tasting grid, um blind taste. I I mean blind tasting is the great equalizer. So I've really loved doing that. Um now that we move into the colder part of the year and the events are getting smaller and the the business kind of contracts a little bit. We've got um every two weeks a wines of the world seminar, we bring in guests, smoliers or people that are specialists in champagne or whatever else, sparkling like. Um so yeah, tell me a little bit about how you guys format again. Very curious uh of what that looks like for you guys and and what kind of response you have and and how enjoyable that is.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

Yeah, your house palette is the worst enemy of any winemaker or anybody who enjoys wine. And me personally, like I think there are several grapes, and I'll put Cabernet in most New World Cabernets in this box. Um Cabernet Sauvignon from California, um New Zealand, uh Sauvignon Blanc. These wines, what I see is once people go down this road of consistently choosing only Cabernet from California, they lose the ability to taste other things. And that may be controversial, but um, you know, you you can't drink seven espresso every single day and then appreciate a beautiful green tea. It just it just doesn't happen. So I guess breaking up breaking up that palate is is the best thing you can do. And one of the things I've been really heartened by and really excited by is um we do this event called um Uncourse, where I'm I'm teaching uh a 90 minute to two-hour class um on a specific region or a specific style of wine. We've done um this the past year we did Greece, we did uh South of France, we did uh biodynamic and organic wines. I also did a class called uh the best wines you've never heard of. And those classes have been selling out um immediately as soon as tickets are available. And I'm really excited by that. You know, like I was really worried that the Greek wine class was was just gonna be a complete dud and nobody would show up, but they showed up, the class sold out, and they bought every single wine that I offered. Um and so I'm I'm really ex you know, everything in the wine industry right now is doom and gloom. If you read the wine industry news, it's just all bad. I try not to. But it's yeah, it's just terrible. I mean, but um to see people really getting excited about Lebanese wines, about Greek wines, about um wines that they've never tried from like Sicily, I love too. Um that it just gets me really excited. So yeah, that's the other big thing. Um 75-80% of my job is the wine shop, but wine education is the other part. So we do the the series called Uncourked. Um and it was kind of one of my asks when I took this job. I wanted to teach a couple wine classes a year. So we started in 2024, we did four classes, we did six this year, and they've asked me to do nine next year, so I'm really excited about that. Um positive growth. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and and each one of those classes has sold out. So I'm I mean we continue to be really yeah, yeah. So um and then we also do other events in the in the hotel. Um, we have an event that's a co-sponsored event between uh our shop, right bank, and the rendezvous lobby bar, which is called Perfect Pairing, where we do three like canope, small and moose bouche kind of bites um paired perfectly with three wines. And so we most recently did Beaujolais, that event sold out. We've got one for Scotch coming up this month. Um we did rose in the summertime, we we usually do a champagne at the end of the year, of course. Um, and those have been going really well too, because I think one of the reasons why we people gravitate towards these big, uh kind of goopy 15 plus percent of new world wines is because they're not pairing wine with food. And that's where these European wines excel, the acid-driven wines excel is with food. But I know so many people in I'll just you know, I'll put the Midwest and uh kind of under under the microscope here, but um in the Midwest especially, so many people finish their meal before they pour a glass of wine. And everywhere else in the world, food and wine are hand in hand, you know, they're just inseparable. So um that's another thing we're trying to educate people on the fact that it doesn't have to be oysters and champagne or caviar, you know, a barbecue chip and a Pinot Noir can be one of the most amazing wine pairings you've ever had. Or, you know, we always do uh we just did Halloween uh candy pairing with wine. Yeah. Um it doesn't have to be super complex. You don't have to spend two hours sleeping in the kitchen to get this amazing uh pairing.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah. Yeah, I love that for sure. Um yeah, I mean, gosh, what what do we have an abundance of here in the Midwest? Acid. And uh not talking about, you know, the the the 60s kind. You know, we're we're talking the wines are are very quenching, and and provided they get ripe enough, you're you're I I think it causes the uh the fruit to pop a little bit. And uh I mean that's the big key. That's the big for me has been a discriminator is how ripe is the fruit, and that comes down to growing, and that's you know, that's the cliche, but it's it's so true. Um if you have ripe fruit and acid, and you you you not only have the the makings of a very food-friendly wine, but you know, depending on on the variety, you you might also have some really vibrant um uh, you know, again, with some of those great Rieslings, um, they taste sweet, but you measure the residual sugar and they're bone dry. Well, where is that perception of sweetness coming from? It's coming from these really distinct, properly ripened uh, you know, fruit uh you know components that uh most likely are coming from the the fermentation, but perfectly balanced with the liveliness of a city. Maybe a little residual sugar left in there. Um but anyways, it reminds me of a pairing that we that we really harp on um with our 23 traumanette, which is the state grape of Indiana. It's bone dry. Um it we blended it with a little bit of muscat, golden muscat that we grow on property. Um, but it has really prime primary uh melon, peach, and um pear notes, and you throw a kiwi in your mouth, a little wedge of kiwi, and then have that trominette, and you're like, I mean, it's just one of those synergistic things that uh I mean, when people experience they they don't have to know, but they know, you know, and so um yeah, we certainly love to love to harp on that stuff as well. But I love those, those um, you know, everything from the blind events to the um you know the different types of themed events, um, you know, old world versus new world. Um that's one that I think is gonna be the first one of our series where we're gonna taste a uh Sauvignon Blanc from Cal California and a Sauvignon Blanc from uh from Bordeaux or something like that, or La La War. Um I love I I just love coming up with those ideas. And um the great thing is you're never gonna run out of ideas. There's a bazillion things you can do to make it interesting and fun. And and for me, again, you mentioned cellar palette. Yeah, I'm I'm pretty used to tasting. We're a small producer that only has six wines on the menu at any given time, plus a new wine or two that we're working on bottling. So yeah, I have to taste other wines to to not you know just completely lose all frame of reference. But um going getting a having an opportunity to go to the wine shop and pick up some nice bottles of wine that you know you're gonna share with people, which is the absolute quintessential, you know, bestie experience of the whole thing, is you know, sharing some wine with people and you know, watching their mind get blown up. That's that's a really fun part of the business that I never really considered, but uh, but now I'm really enjoying that aspect. So um yeah, it's that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

That's the best part of my best part of my day or best part of my week is we we do a tasting every week and it's always your it's almost always European. But it's it's if it's not European wine, then it's uh a Sauvignon Blanc from an interesting region, California, or a biodynamic wine from California. And I just love when someone comes in and tells me they hate Chardonnay and I pour them something without them knowing what it is, and I've completely changed their mind on something.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Um that's great. Um yeah, that reminds me um Chardonnay. Uh again, I I I like I again I don't really discriminate. I mean, there's some wines certainly that I prefer more than others, and some that I don't necessarily gravitate, but but uh can certainly um you know more than tolerate. I mean, I enjoy I enjoy a glass of wine with with uh with dinner, you know, just most most nights. Um uh if we can you know afford to do something nice or it's gonna be a good pairing, we'll go for that. But um, but you know, I I mean again, I would have to say, given my druthers, if if I can get a a decent ball of chablis or or something um that's relatively economical, then I'm probably gonna uh you know go for one of those uh European wines. Uh again, depending on availability. I just like the kind of the finesse a lot of times and and um and you know I think for me, I think we've talked about I've had a couple experiences where it seemed like the the the major differentiator between an old world and a new world wine is vine age. I think I think that um for my money, when the vines are more than 50 years old, something happens and and there's this, you know, I wouldn't say it's a switch because this happens over time. It's not just a you know, one day it's it tastes like it comes from the new world and the and the next day. And I use that example of being in um the Margaret River in uh Australia where they had almost hundred-year-old Shiraz and it's the the most Rowan, it's the most old world tasting European wines I've ever tasted, not from Europe. And yeah, it's st these gnarly vine Shiraz are just staring you in the face. What's gotta be that, you know, it's not the soil. So, anyways, yeah. Um I it just I I get excited about that European style of of Chardonnay. Um And I that reminds me, just to kind of give a prop, to um uh a winery down here in Bloomington, Indiana, uh Butler Winery. Uh uh Andy and Mabel Butler have come back from uh uh California where they were uh some pretty high-level assistant winemakers. And I just tasted uh a wine from them from the grape Chardonnay, which is a uh a Cornell uh hybrid of Chardonnay. You gotta try it. I gotta get you a bottle of it. It's it's really I would love to.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, it it's um, you know, again, most of the wineries, myself included, are like, well, we've got all these, you know, hybrid varieties or the leaner, more aromatic, Germanic, stainless steel. They made the Chardonnay in a very, very traditional Burgundian style, Lee's age neutral white barrels. Um, I just haven't tasted a a white wine in the Midwest with that kind of depth and complexity and subtleness and white Burgundian character ever. And uh it's no surprise that those two would come back and and and kind of know how to give it just enough Lees, but not too much, you know, Sterly. It it's a really remarkable wine. Not a lot produced, but they're trying to plant more and do that. And so it's kind of been a game changer. It's probably the thing that stuck with me most this year. Um, okay, so you mean we can do more? Because we're so high acid, it's right, it's it's kind of you're you're not gonna make a sterly-aged Chardonnay-esque, you know, barrel-aged malolactic wine with 10 grams per liter of acid. It's that's just not gonna work. You have to get it. Um, and certainly the ML helps, but uh anyways, really fascinating wine. Um that's the that's the one Midwest wine that's been a game changer for me this year. But I'll see if I can get you a bottle and get your take on it.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

I've I've had some uh Chardonnay from Missouri uh that were incredible. They and they were again, they were more in that kind of Chablis or Petit Chablis, like screaming acid kind of style. But yeah, that would be amazing to try a Chardonnay with that little more finesse, a little more um umami, a little more, you know, um uh depth of flavor with the surly aging. I think it would do really well.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

24 was a really good year for us. Everything got really ripe. I mean, even our reds were pushing 24, 25 bricks, which we're happy if it's above 20. We don't have to make rose. We can you you know, we can maybe, maybe work with it enough to get it but you know into a a dry uh because again, we're very kind of European in our, we don't add sugar to our red wines. It's in the barrel. And if if worse comes to worse, we we we blend it with some uh low acid California stuff just to kind of bring bring the acid down um below 25%, of course. But uh but twenty-five we didn't have to do that, or twenty-four. And um so that that Chardonnay was from their estate vineyard, um lower acid through the ML, and and I'll tell you what, it it was it was uh it was from my money very, very high quality. I think anybody would agree. But anyways, uh you just mentioned that. But so we've been already chatting for almost 25 minutes. How did you get into wine, man? What I you know I usually start from the beginning, like how do you know what you know? Where did you grow up and what's your journey been to get to be uh you know a wine expert, I would say.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Well, I always joke I got into wine because I failed at everything else, but but um I was in uh I was in the piano industry, I was a piano technician for about 10 years, and um I started really getting interested in wine. And I'm from I don't know, I I'm from Indiana. Um whereabouts? When I was living we lived in Fishers, I grew up in Lafayette, lived in Fisher's for a while before we moved to uh California. And um, but when I was living in Fishers, um my father-in-law, who uh is the owner and winemaker at uh Carpenter Creek Cellars, um told me about uh a program called Vesta. I think it's still around. Um Vesta is an it inology viticulture program for kind of landlocked people who are you know nowhere close to UC Davis or nowhere close to you know upstate New York, we can get a quality viticulture education, and it was early online education. Um, and so I started taking viticulture inology classes there, and then my wife got an opportunity to transfer um transfers to Northern California, and our our first kid was very young at the time, and we uh we were able to do it, and I I was able to start working in Napa, and we lived in Fairfield in in California, and so um I was able to kind of parlay some of the vested knowledge that I had into uh some cellar jobs. I worked at Chapolet, I worked at Lewis, very small winery uh on the Napa Valley floor. I w worked at uh Indianology lab of Napa Wine Company for a couple years. And then, you know, when you when you're first getting started, you work, you know, maybe two to three to six months for harvest, and then in the spring, um, you take classes. So I would I was also taking wine classes at Naple Valley College and eventually Las Basitas in Livermore. Um and so I got to work in some very cool places um and got to experience some incredible wines in California, but also got to start understanding more about European wines. And then uh we moved to Livermore. I continued my education there at Las Basitas, they have a really good program, and uh that program really helps me understand. I would take even if I had taken the class before, I would just constantly take the wine appreciation or New World versus old world classes just to keep my palate going. And eventually, because we have kids and you know, we just we wanted to be back closer to home, so we we we uh my one of my stipulations was I wanted to be in an area where they're making serious wine. And so we chose Michigan. We visited uh Holland and Kalamazoo, but Grand Rapids really just stuck with us, and so um moved back here. I helped open the first uh total wine in Michigan uh over on uh 28th Street here in Grand Rapids, and I was there for two years. Okay. That was uh that was a learning curve. Um that was you know, I was partly responsible for 8,000 different wines, and um so I had to learn a lot fast because I was a California guy. I was you know still obsessed with California wines, and so I had to learn a lot about the old world really fast. And then the the position at uh the Amway came up and it's been uh it's been amazing. But I've always um tried to continue my wine education. I never really finished anywhere, but I've always tried to continue that. Um I've just started the the the um quartermaster songs program. I did the introductory introductory um Psalm level just recently, and I'm gonna take the certified next year just to continue my education and keep it going.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, and and the on the It's a it's you know, you you you continued your pursuit. I think we can both agree uh it's not something anyone will ever master. Even a master Somalia can't can't know it all. I mean that that's the thing. You go down this rabbit hole, especially when you start talking about all of the the classic regions and the emerging regions, but I mean um it's just you know, it's just such a a a vast well of of producers and and everything else that um yeah, it's if you're into it, um you're not gonna get bored anytime soon. There's always something to to to to learn. A new region. And for me, again, I agree. It's it's been um a big part of uh the beauty of it is you know, my wife and I and our friends, we associate wine with places and travel, and and as we get older, you know, you you associate. Um again, good wine is is not it's not just an elixir to to you know to get you know get you imbibed and and forget about your problems. It's about sharing an experience and a time and place with with a person and a memory and and um you know to to live live live as best you can with the short time that we have here. So there's just so much kind of wrapped up into it. Um and so I think that's the enduring quality. Again, you talk about the doom and gloom in the wine business. Certainly for uh some segments it probably is good, but I just saw a pretty good headline that says, you know, with all this doom and gloom, these small producers are seizing the day. And and I think that, you know, if you just go back to the the core of what makes wine and wine tourism and wine enjoyment and wine hedonism um such a uh you know historically pleasant thing for and a chill thing for human beings to do, that's never gonna go out of style, man. I don't I don't I don't I'm just I'm not overly personally concerned, you know. So I love that.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

No, I agree. It's uh it's it is a magical thing. Like um I someone said, you know, once uh if you boil the job of winemaker down to one decision, it's when to pick. And that that decision is so important because you can't fix anything after you if you mess that up, you can't fix it. And that's what is so amazing about wine as opposed to craft beer or any other thing. We get one shot per year. You if you mess your one shot up, you messed up your year, and you might have messed up your whole business. But um, that's what really keeps it interesting. It's every single year we've got to do it over and over and over, and we only get one chance to do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah, absolutely. And um, yeah, I again I could not agree more. That's a big part of our philosophy. I mean, we joke kind of tongue in cheek, but it's really true. I mean, when people ask, you know, uh how the wine's made, I I I I say, hey, you know, especially uh being a winery that's only got five vintages that we've released, or to four that we've released, you know, we're making our fifth. Um, you know, my job is to just uh, you know, get the grapes in through a clean fermentation and then not screw it up. There's no flavors I can put into it. I mean, I can choose the oak, I can choose the yeast, I can choose a few other very minor parameters. You're absolutely right, the picking decision, um, which, you know, it's it's partly getting it right, partly um hoping that Mother Nature gave you something um that was was beautiful. Uh, and there's again, that's that's a double-edged sword both ways. How many times have you heard that tough vintage, you know, five years later ended up making a wine with incredible tension while the yields were way down? We find that those wines are more in some ways more enjoyable and and and complex and intellectual than something that came from a you know on paper, perfectly ripe beer. You hear those uh anecdotes all the time. Um, so it's more than just a passing fancy. I mean, there's something to that. But uh again, we we like to say them the again, very old world ethos. Wine's made in the vineyard. Um, we pick it uh hopefully at the optimal time based on what we're seeing out in the vineyard, and then we get out of the way and we're just along for the ride. And and that's been um both, you know, downright terrifying, but also quite gratifying, you know, uh when the wines get bottled and people enjoy them, because really, you know, um it's just kind of well, we'll we'll wait and see. I hope it's good, you know. I'm not screwed up, you know, not let it oxidize, keep the right SO2. I mean, it's it's not really I mean, there's some stellar tricks, but it's not really tricks, it's just stellar logistics, it's stellar ergonomics. It's like how do you pump this through this without, you know, you know, messing up. But anyways, uh absolutely very, very traditional. Um, love that, love that approach. Um, and yeah, like we don't try and make it anything that it's not. But um so you're in Grand Rapids, um, got the killer um wine shop there. Um tell me a little bit about uh the uh the Midwest uh or the uh Michigan wine scene. Um, you know, we're we're obviously, as we've gravitated up, um, definitely been to some cool places in the southwest. You kind of got two main regions, right? You got the southwest, and then well, probably three now, because you got the Leland on, they're doing some more of the benefit stuff, and then you've got the tip of the mitt back into the super cold, hardy climate. So give me um give me a little uh switching gears a little bit, give me a little a high-level overview of of Michigan wines, and then maybe we can delve in there a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

So as I recall, I believe there are five official ABAs in Michigan. Um there's the the Michigan Lakeshore, there's the Fenvilve, we have Lelanaw, Old Mission, and Tip of the Mint. I believe that's it. I could be wrong. Um to me, you know, obviously Traver City, Lelenaw Peninsula, Old Mission Peninsula, these are our that's our Napa, if you will. You know, you're within walking distance to dozens of wineries. And that certainly gets most of the attention from our wine industry. But to me, and there are some great wines up there. There's um, you know, just things that I carry in our shop, um, Left with Charlie, we've got uh Boss Wines, BOS, we've got um Black Star Farms, there's some there's incredible wines up there. But to me, the wines that have been of most interest have been in the Southwest, either the Fenville or what we call the Lake Shore, Lake Michigan Shore ABA. Um, all the way down to the Indiana Line near Variant Springs, you have what I I think is one of the best wineries in Michigan. Uh Stranger Wine Company, Max and Sydney are doing some incredible wines down there. Um, doing some really good Reds, which is newer from Michigan. Michigan has always been known for Germanic, aromatic white wines, um, and that's changing. Um, and you have um the Fenville ABA, you've got Medallas, you've got uh the Vintage Inn with Veritas, you've got um some incredible wines being made down there. And because of the southern uh being more southern on any given day, it may be 10 degrees warmer in the southern, southwestern part of the state than than up north. So we can certainly get into um red wines like Syrah. We're definitely doing fully ripening Pinot Noir. Um, I recently had a Tanat from Fenville, which was really exciting. That was one of the coolest Michigan wines I've ever had. Tanat is a grape that comes from the southwest part of France, where um the Basque region of Spain meets France. Um obviously from the name Tanat, we get tannin, and um it was an amazing, probably the biggest boldest red wine that I've had from the Midwest, um, that I I think I've ever had from the Midwest. Um we have uh White Pine and St. Joe. Uh there's just some incredible wines being made. Unfortunately, in the Southwest, you know, to me it's more like if we're gonna do a Napa Sonoma comparison where Traverse City is our Napa, the Southwest is more a Sonoma where you might have to drive 20, 30 minutes in between wineries and you really have to know who you're going to visit and where they are. And it's a little bit uh newer, um new startups. And so some of those wineries just um don't have the same traction as they do up north. But um, those are the the wines that really interest me is that Southwest region.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Okay. Cool. So yeah, let's um uh tell me about uh we'll start up uh in uh Traverse City, Lelanaw. Again, I I haven't spent a lot of time up there. Um I I know it's an absolutely gorgeous area, um, not just for uh uh you know for grapes, but apples. I mean, they they've got all of Michigan has quite a bit of uh a pretty rich history of of fruit farming and and you know, obviously due to that lake effect. But you taught me you mentioned Boz and Left Foot Charlie. Um what are the the the grape varieties that they're really is there all vanifera in all of those locations? Are there some hybrids? Is there a mix? Um what I know Lelanaw, they're they're definitely uh Riesling would be probably at the top of the list, probably doing some Pinot Noir and uh a few other things. What what what what do you think when you think Lelanaw, what uh what is kind of maybe their their growth direction potential, maybe?

SPEAKER_04 38:07

I think Riesling, Riesling definitely was the number one grape up there. I think they're definitely moving away from it because there's sort of a correction or maybe an overcorrection because Michigan uh Michiganders know that area so uh as it's identified with sweet dry wines. I'm sorry, sweet white wines. And so I think there's sort of an overcorrection or a correction more towards uh benefera. We're seeing a lot of Pinot Bree, we're seeing Sauvignon Blanc, um, we're seeing uh with with Boss some beautiful sparkling wines. Um and so, but yeah, primarily, I this would be an absolute guess on my part, but I think 85-90% venifera versus hybrids, and I think that's because of the neighboring recognition of vinifera. You know, when you tell someone a Chardonnay or a Vignol or something like that, that they don't have a reference point for those wines. Um, but when you say Pinot Gris, everybody knows what that is. Um Capranc, especially Pinot Noir, um some Chardonnay. Um, but up there you have two main peninsulas. You have the Lelano Peninsula and then you have the Old Mission Peninsula, and there's wineries up and down both peninsulas. There's grapes everywhere. But because of the proximity to the water on both of those peninsulas, you have a moderating effect of the winters. So the winters are warmer, the summers are a little cooler. And um Michigan as a whole, you can grow grapes pretty much anywhere around Michigan as long as you're within 10 miles of the water. You can grow grapes other places, but you can grow pretty much whatever you want as long as you're within 10 miles of the water because it uh moderates that really, really cold winter and really, really hot summer. Um so yeah, up north, um they're just growing like crazy and traffic up there is getting terrible. But that is, you know, sort of the focal point for Michigan wine, um high-end Michigan food.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Um and I mean, I have to ask, do you find it a challenge to, you know, I have heard that, you know, they're doing Pinot Gris and stuff, but you're also, you know, it's the same variety, uh, just like there may not be re recognition for a melody or or one of our hybrids down here. Um and I want you to be honest, you don't have to, you won't hurt my feelings because uh, you know, we have to uh we have to call it like we see it. There is a there is a uh an abject uh reality. But um you're also you know making wine from the same grape that uh obviously is Pinot Grigio that comes from you know uh Alto Alta Jay. I mean those those I'm gonna just gonna go on a guess and say that uh you know some of those beautiful Italian Pinot Grigio's not on the same level as a Michigan uh Pinot Gris. Are there pr are there uh uh wineries up there that are figuring it out and starting to make uh world-class Pinot Gris? Is it to that level yet?

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Yeah, I would say yes, absolutely. Okay. I think um, you know, one of the issues is like you said, with with the old world uh and the value seen in older vines, that's one of the issues that we're gonna have for a long time. Is that some of these vineyards were planted five years ago, some 10, maybe 15 years ago. And so we just don't have that uh really, really well established vineyards that you have in the older regions. The other thing too, I 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

I think that's a big I think that's probably the biggest limiter in that really unique old world concentration. And like you said, there's you you just can't make the year the the vineyard 30 years without waiting 30 years. So I mean, yeah, there's just nothing we can do about it. The fruit will be a little bit more obvious, a little bit more primary, a little bit fruitier, give it some time if it survives. Uh then, you know, so you know, all wine regions may have that. That's the trick.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

The other problem, um or not so much a problem, but the other thing that we have to face, whether it's Michigan or Indiana or Illinois or anywhere, you know, if you cash your 401k in for this dream of opening a winery, and you you know way more about this than I do, but if you cash your checks in, you put all your money into opening a winery, and you planted a vineyard, that vineyard is now six years old, you can finally start to pull some fruit, you don't have the luxury of saying, I'm only gonna do two tons per acre or three tons per acre. You you're scratching and clawing. You've got to go for quantity rather than quality. And that's a big decision that, you know, there's just not enough money in the Michigan wine industry yet where everyone can say, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna uh do a green harvest, I'm gonna drop some fruit, I'm gonna concentrate all the flavor in this two tons, um, rather than harvesting the maybe six or seven that I could harvest. And that's the luxury that established wine areas have, like Napa. You can decide that you're just gonna do three tons per acre or two tons per acre and just get the most flavor possible in each individual grape. And that just takes time. So those two factors of the the age of the vineyard and that quality decision. And that's I'm I'm not faulting anybody who, you know, like I said, you maybe you cash in your 401k, you do your your whole retirement fund to start this beautiful winery that's your dream. I can't fault anybody for making the decision to choose quantity or quality initially, because that's how we all survive. Um so some of that is there too. But um, I think we're absolutely seeing incredible wines from Michigan um up north or down south. Um you have to be a little picky and it's not everywhere. It's maybe 20% of the wines that are coming out, but it's it's definitely starting. I think we've started to hit that apex where um yeah, sweet wines still probably pay the bills, but people are starting to visit those winers expecting the quality dry Adifra wines. Um and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Okay. So yeah, I I I am on board with what you just said. Basically, you're saying that um if you thought that your 401 K was gonna get you at least um not a seat at the table, but but get you in operation. Well, you know what, you're off by fifty percent because it's actually more than that because you you're the your your pro forma had four tons per acre, but to make good wine, you're only two. So it's it's it's even more expensive, and and it already is expensive. So that's there's there's a very uh real economic reality. It's a tough business to eke out a profit. But I do want to just ask, because this is a question that is not uh a hundred percent um and we're neither of us are experts on this, but I'm sure we both have opinions. Um there is an inherent issue now that you've just opened up by saying, okay, the sweet wines pay the bills, but you uh want to be considered a premium producer. So now you have a branding issue. So that's one thing that that I I'm you know keenly kind of because there's no right answer. I mean, we we have got we've said we're not gonna have the sweet wines because I'm afraid that if we do sweet wines, then we'll never be able to get uh a fair shake. I mean, it I use the example. Uh if there's a hundred wineries in Indiana, probably 75 or 90% of them, 90 out of 100, have a splushy machine. If you're a Somalia and you come in and see a splushing machine, are you even gonna consider that their dry red uh estate wine is worth 30, 40, 50 bucks? I'm gonna say, even if you say one thing, subconsciously the answer is no. Okay. So no, I I 100% agree. I think you're right. It's it's even a slippier slope. So not only can you only uh, you know, you need to put in enough grapes to get that concentrated two tons per acre, but you also can't use sweet, cheap, and get you drunk wines to pay the bills and pay your staff and all this. So it's like when you kind of grasp that, you're like, well, how the heck? Because now you're trying to move in. And again, that's part of the reason why I say starting a business in an established region is almost doomed to failure because you're going up against behemoths with a lot more capital and they're already doing it at a much higher level. Really the only option, I wouldn't say only option, but certainly it makes the argument that that more emergent regions are really the only place left. So um where you might be able to break in and and uh do something interesting. But uh it's just an an interesting conundrum where it's like if you want to have the brand, how are you gonna finance that? It it just like in in the old, you know, the in the more established places, it it comes down to whatever amount of money you think it's gonna cost, it's gonna cost more if you really want to succeed in the branding. And that and that's that kind of stinks, you know, but that's the world we live in.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

Yeah. I think the other issue too, especially with the reds, is that when you ask an average wine consumer what are the flavors that they enjoy in their favorite red wines, the the flavors that they will list are not flavors that come from the grape. They're gonna talk about uh vanilla, baking spices, they're gonna talk about um, you know, maybe coffee or espresso in their wine flavors. And those are flavors that don't necessarily inherently come from a Pinot Noir grape. It comes from a$1,500 or$2,000 French barrel. And so the that is the other issue with um Midwestern red wines, especially, is like, can you get the grapes enologically ripe? Maybe, yeah, hopefully. Um, but can you make that red wine into a wine that is has the flavors that people are expecting from a certain, like if you like uh Russian River Pinot Noir, you're expecting big bold flavors with big bold French oak flavors to go with it. Um, but if you're selling your wine at$25, you can't afford a$1,500 barrel and you might need$20. There's no way you can afford that. Um so how do you how do you that's the other catch 22 is how do you get your$25 wine to the point where it justifies$60 without those flavors that come, you know, come are accustomed with that$60 price range. So yeah, it's it's it's tough. I you know, just to be 100% honest, when we moved here, I had I bought 40 acres in the Fenville area, and my plan was to start a winery. And the further I got into it, the more I went, you know, this just isn't this isn't for me. I want to be able to travel. I want to be able to um pass on maybe some some um some money to our kids. I want to be able to do things. I don't want to be tied to this winery. And the and like you said, the more we looked into it, I was like, this is what we need to do it. And then it was like, no, we need three times that much to do it right the way that I want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Yeah, exactly. Yep, exactly. A hundred percent, man. Um, all right, well, let's move down to the southwest region there. Um uh I've definitely been to some good ones. Uh we we've source grapes from Arrowhead, they're more known for their um ice wines, and they do it on a on a pretty grand scale. Uh, I mean, ice wine production. Yeah, you want to talk about hard. Um, that's something I want no no part of. Um, but uh I believe there's one called Domain Barian. Does that ring a bell at all?

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Um I've heard of I don't know, I don't know the wines uh very well, but I had definitely heard of it.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

I I yeah, I we we stopped by there on on somebody's uh recommendation, and uh they've got about 50 or 60 acres. Most of the stuff's a state. Um some hits and misses, I'll be honest. Like they had Trauma Net, and um I wasn't blown away by it. I'm not sure how they grew it, but they had, I think, a Cab Franc that really kind of knocked my socks off. It was really, really, really, really good. I mean, um, I think we definitely bought a bottle of that and and several really, really nice whites. So um a little to me, it seems like a little bit more of a a mix, a hodgepodge of some benefer and hybrids. Um, you know, are there you mentioned some standouts. What are some of the the wines and the wine grapes that do well, uh kind of a little bit closer to the Indiana uh climate?

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Yeah, so um definitely starting to see quite a bit of Syrah uh come out of that region. It's more of a nort northern Rhone style Syrah, so this is not a Shiraz or a California Syrah punch you in the face with big alcohol and flavors. This is more um subtle and acid-driven, uh, more in that kind of Saint-Joseph style. Um starting to see we've actually got Cabernet Sauvignon uh fully ripened and doing well in the Southwest. Um it's more reminiscent of maybe um a Morgan Bourjolais. You know, the flavors are not um the same as a California Cabernet, but it's still um getting to full ripeness and able to be made into an incredible wine. But they're more softer red flavors rather than purple and black flavors. And again, you know, without that big bold French barrel to put it in, um, it's gonna be a little bit different wine, but um, I've seen Tanot, uh Chardonnay. Oh, so a lot of reds. Uh again. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 51:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Yeah, Pinot Noir definitely doing really well. Um, I me personally, one of my favorite kind of underdog grapes is a la gote from the Burgundy region. I would love to see somebody doing a la gote in Southwest Michigan. Um, I think it could be incredible. It could be our version of Sauvignon Blanc, maybe. Um, but yeah, you know, I think the to me, one of the best examples of what Michigan can become as far as a wine region, is is Max and Sydney at Stranger Wine Company. Max is a a master master of wine candidate, which is the highest level wine certification in the world. He's two two exams uh out of three from becoming a master of wine. He could be making wine in Burgundy, in California, in Oregon, and Washington, and he's chosen to be here in Michigan um because they see something special here. And um, I just I love that. And so does he grow his own grapes or uh does he uh source um a little bit of both? No, they they grow all their own fruit. He also has a bit of a vineyard management company where he's farming for other people. So all of his, my understanding is all of his wine is coming from his vineyard and and vineyards that they manage. Um uh, you know, and but I think it's all Michigan fruit as far as I know.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

And so uh what what are some of their wheelhouse wines and and varieties?

SPEAKER_04 52:32

So as you mentioned, I mean they're doing some reds and whites there, some uh some of those uh so they do a Riesling, it's a dry style Riesling, and it's more of a Rheingau style Riesling, more minerally, more floral. Um they do um I think they did a um also it's a dry Riesling. Um they do a fantastic Cap Franc, really good Syrah. Um they have a a really good Cabernet Sauvignon um on the whites. I am struggling to remember everything, but I think they're doing Chardonnay uh and a Pinot Gris, I believe. Um just incredible wines. They age really well.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

You've mentioned them before. I I I gotta look them up. Do they have a tasting room or uh you have to go through distribution? How do you get a hold of their stuff? I do now. Okay, where whereabouts are they looking at? In Buchanan.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Okay.

unknown 53:28

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah. I'll have to check that out next time we're up up that neck of the woods. So I gotta ask, um, you know, any any market for the hybrids? Um, or is it just like kind of the natural progression, just like in New York where there was a battle between the Cornell hybrids and Dr. Frank with Riesling and Bonifera run out, just like it did with the French hybrids over or the uh, you know, the the grafted uh direct producers versus you know that this is a story that's played out time and time again. Um, you know, I feel like we're not even gonna attempt Bonifera at our location until we can at least grow the easy hybrids, which you know, they're not easy. Uh not easy ground groups. Not easy at all, no. Um, but I mean I would say Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

I would say in the major regions that we're seeing, the Fenville, the Southwest, and uh and especially up north and and uh traversity area, there's definitely movement towards venifra. I think the idea is um if people will recognize it, they're more likely to buy it. So we're seeing a lot more cab francs, uh maybe too many cab francs, but I think they're leaning on it maybe a little heavy because they're hoping that people will recognize that cab side of it, even though cab franc is wildly different from cab sog. Um but when you go more inland to Michigan, then you start to see a lot more hybrid grapes um because out of necessity, because they don't have that moderating lake effect. Um, they have to do the Cornell hybrids. And we're seeing um tremanettes and we're seeing um trying to think of other ones that I've seen, but definitely more of those hybrid grapes do do better because they just uh the winters are just too brutal.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Yeah, Marquette and Petite Pearl are the real coral ones that do well and they make great wine. I mean, again, we we absolutely litmus test is is if I give you, you know, uh a nice$30 to$40 bottle of Gamay Noir and then a bottle of Midwestern Marquette and you're on the fence about which one you like better, I mean to me that's that's that's an endorsement that I'm I'm willing to accept in terms of the quality. So we once again we go back to branding. And um, so boy, I'll tell you what, if you uh if you have sweet wines and and hybrids, not gonna work. Not gonna work, you know. But if you have only hybrids and people taste them blind and they really like them, then you then then basically what you're saying to the world is give these things a fair shot. You're you're you know, and and and then I would counter by saying, I don't want a cab franc that doesn't taste like a grape that is being grown in a place that it wants to be. If indeed those wineries, and like I just said, I think it's Domain Bury, and um they're in the southwest uh part of Michigan. I tasted that Cab Franc and it was it was really delicious. I mean, it was very kind of Law Valley-esque. It was it was um uh it was more on the delicate side with you know, more a bit acid-driven, but you know, well done with the oak, not over oaked, which is another uh you know, telltale of of a region that's trying to find its footing a little bit. Um it was a it was a it was a really good wine, but but that's to me that that's I haven't seen that uh more often than not. I've seen um maybe, oh, we've got to have a nifera, and it's kind of the same thing. Now, now you're kind of in a catch-22 where you're going for the name because you think that's what people want, but you're producing at a small tonnage, and it's it's just not now you're getting compared. And Cabernet, yeah, you know, people are gonna compare that. And and I just it's rare to get um a Midwestern Cabernet that you're like, oh, this is better than uh two buck chuck, you know. The two buck chuck is far cheaper and and usually wins out in terms of flavor. So um, and I hate to say that, but a lot of times that's true.

SPEAKER_04 57:16

I think this comes back to the education side where it's it's it's on our responsibility to be educating people um that varietal or sapage is not um the end of the argument. I have so many people who come into the shop who say, I only drink Malbec, I don't drink Merleau, I only drink Sauvignon Blanc, I don't drink Chardonnay. Well, I can give you a Chardonnay that will change your mind. I can give you a Merleau that will change your mind. But because so many people, I think the wine industry is confusing to most people who are not in it every day. Like it is an education for sure. Yeah, I mean we we need to educate them that place is as important, if not more important, than the grape that's on the front of the label. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Yeah, and that's another big part of of how I think we're able to uh have a fair bit of success. You know, we're direct to consumer, and uh it helps to say that what's in that glass came from right over there, and and that's unique and special in in any setting. And you and we get a fair bit of latitude. We don't try to compete on a just distribution basis because it will be uh it will not be a fair fight, you know. So we we we know we'll lose that one all day long. But um always a great discussion. Uh just kind of wrapping up, what what's on the what's on the horizon for you, Michael? What do you what do you got? I mean, we kind of talked a little bit about what are some things that you're you're pumped about, um, both with the business and uh Michigan and and wine in general.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

Yeah, uh yeah, I would like to see more grape variety in Michigan. Uh I would like to see us try some more interesting grapes and see, you know, when you look at Europe, I we were in Germany this year, and um you look at those hills and you're like, what what uh crazy person decided to drill through this slate and plant grapes on this hillside? But it took thousands of years to figure out what grows where. And I would like to see more experimentation in Michigan to see what excels here because maybe it's a grape that we like Tanat or Ali Quote, maybe it's something that we just haven't even considered. Um, were you in Germany? So we went down the Rhine, uh traveled from uh uh Amsterdam down to Luxembourg on the Rhine. Um, and uh it was a blast, so much fun, and some good ones. But yeah, like like you said, travel helps you see these places. Being in Bordeaux, you know, I've studied Bordeaux most of my adult life, and then you finally get to see, like, oh, okay, this is here, and this is oh, I, you know, you know it on the map, but when you actually see it in person, it the difference between Puyak and Salta Steph is easy to do.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

I've never been. I mean, uh bucket list, fingers crossed, I it's one of the great, you know, places of the world for wine, and uh, and uh I would love, love, love to be there someday. So yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, what what what what's uh what's next?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:10

Next is Portugal for me. I'm gonna travel to Portugal and then continue teaching these, you know, wine classes. That's what I'm most excited about, and that's what uh people seem to be responding to.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I meant to say this earlier. You mentioned the the the uh presentation on Greek wines. Um you know, the the stereotype is that the reason why they've never gotten their just due is because Greek is notoriously difficult to pronounce in a lot of cases. Um Portugal, a little almost kind of the same, but not I mean, it's almost like trying to read a sake bottle. I've spent time in Japan, and yeah, you have almost no chance of knowing what you're looking at, but there's an immense amount of variation. It's such a again, a very deep and beautiful uh subject. It's just and deciphered, it's like hieroglyphics, Greek wines are similar. Um and so therein lies the beauty, they're phenomenal value, they're absolutely stunning wines, and there's 20 different hugely marked you know, marquee varieties. Don't know what they are, you know. Um uh surtico, and that's about the the only one I can remember. But but that but I mean for less than 10 bucks, you can get something that would otherwise be four times that amount. And I've always associated a great, great value with uh Portuguese wines at all. So you mention people tightening their belt, but we still want to drink good wine and maybe a great opportunity for some of these um uh you know regions that are like, okay, you know what, if you can afford burgundy, go for it. But we've got phenomenal wines, and so it it need takes people like you to be like, I I I got you. Here, try this, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:49

Um Greece, Portugal, Chile, right now, those three represent the best values. Um, no matter what kind of wine you want, you can find it in those three regions and and at you know 20 bucks or under.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Yeah, I love it. Well, I gotta come talk to you to figure out which of those bottles it is. More often than not, I I'm just like, uh I mean I might as well just pick it blind, but uh they're always they're always good for sure. Awesome. Well, we're right at an hour, man. That's that I I could I could keep going. I could chew your brain for for for much longer, but I do appreciate uh catching up with you, Michael. Absolutely. It was it was really fun. Thanks so much. Yeah, and uh uh please um come see us. I would love to uh take you through a uh a tasting and and show you what we got going on down at the down at the winery and and uh hopefully can you know help convert you to the eastern winery, uh eastern Indiana wine scene. Um hopefully s surprise and delight you a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

I'm sorry, my battery died right at the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:08

Oh wow, are you back? Yeah. Yeah, I'm so sorry, my battery died right at the very end. I hope that didn't screw everything up.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

I know. No, no, no, no, it'll be fine. Um it is showing uh if you can do is it plugged in now?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Okay, yeah, it's showing 99. So if we could just leave the browser open. Uh I mean, I'll edit the the last part out, so it'll be it'll be fine. Because we're I was wrapping it up kind of babbling anyway. So uh I think we were pretty much there by by a minute. But that's that's perfect timing. Good thing it didn't cut out earlier. I was like, where do you go? Yeah, it's shown 87. Um so all good. All good. Yeah, it um just uh uh leave the browser open and and give it I don't know how long it'll take with a but good enough. I'm showing ninety nine, I'm showing it showing yours eighty seven percent, but it will um upload to the cloud and tell us a hundred percent and then then you can close it up and I'll I'll get everything and um I'll just shorten the end. But no it was fun man I I appreciate your time. I uh um yeah it was good man I I look forward to getting up there. I was I was there not it was a couple couple months ago maybe or it well it wasn't that long. I walked by and you weren't in there you had there was a uh a a woman in there uh working you weren't there but uh and in fact I walked back around that's when I was in German. Okay. Yeah so uh so uh so yeah I I still look for I love going there so I will see you soon for sure but um as I was saying if you're ever down back in Fisher's please swing by so we can uh give you a tour and and show you what we're up to man.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:47

You know what I remembered too this morning is that uh you gave me a bottle of Landot Noir and you said hang on to it for a while and I I've stashed it somewhere and I've got to find it because it's probably about time to drink it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

I I don't know I don't know it's it's drinking pretty good but it's got some I mean it's it's uh it's not getting worse it's it's gonna it's gonna last we made three red wines this year we had a Showa which is you know a French hybrid very close to Chamberson um that one was uh 50% French oak and um ended up being getting bottled with probably a little lean on the SO2 which again like anything um I it was like 20 parts uh with you know that that's not enough to in my opinion make it uh uh age worthy so we we put the big you know um uh that we made that kind of our our number one wine and uh and we're almost we're almost gone it did a hundred cases and we're down to less than twenty. So I just didn't want it hanging around aging very long with that kind of SO2 and the pH where it was at. Yeah. And then the uh the Lando, we only did about 40 or 50 cases and that's the one that the wine geeks that come in they always gravitate towards it. They're just it's just the biggest boldest kind of weirdest. It's one of the only French hybrids that's blue and black fruit because they're almost always red fruit. So it's um I'm I'm yeah I think if nothing else because it's got some zip it's got uh you know it's got the acid it doesn't have a huge tannin but it's got this chunky just uh and again it's weird uh and drinking a lot of fine wine it may be over the top but for what for what we can produce um it's concentrated it's just got a lot of interesting stuff going on and then the Marquette is kind of our marquee wine um um and it's age worthy and and I think uh I I th I hope it's well it's not not quite three years old yet but um yeah um three dry red wines not many Indiana wines wineries doing that so uh but yeah I not with Indiana grapes no yes not with Indiana grapes but I'll always be interested and I want to hear a fair shake you know it's it's uh it's um yeah especially somebody that has a palate is tasting these international wines I think they might hold their own with some of the lesser known you know varieties as soon as you compare them it it becomes a a much more of a difficult sell but um but anyways yeah um I I look forward to chatting with you and I I appreciate your time and and so I will um um let this get all uploaded and and uh I'm backlog like I said I've done uh not quite 15 um I pretty much go in order so it might be closer to the you know right around the turn of the year but as soon as I a week out I'll let you know and send you some stuff and uh you know do it do it with it what you what what you like but um I'll certainly be putting it on our Facebook and Instagram and and uh finding some some good quotes in here and uh and uh share that with you if you're if you're cool with that absolutely yeah yeah it was fun I think and I think what you said is absolutely correct like how how do you make that transition if you're gonna choose to get into this business trying to pay your bills with a certain kind of wine how do you transition like that's a really Yeah I mean it's the same with when I s when I bought the land people kept telling me just get the winery open and you can plant grapes later and I'm like I know I know for a fact that that's not true.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

Because once I once you're so busy you know and and the demand is there and people are expecting you to have wine every year there's no way I'm going back to the vineyard to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Like um so yeah it's not gonna work that way. Um great book by um uh Mike uh what is it Mike Wine uh it's called Wine Wars from by Mike Vesseth he's done he's written a couple books in the wine business um what I always remember about that was a big key part the key case study or anecdote um talks specifically about um Australia and what happened with their glutta wine so Australia comes on the scene with Yellowtel and it was kind of like not well they did they do talk about the two buck chuck phenomenon but it was probably uh in the 80s or 90s a a real revelation because Australia before that was not known as a wine producer but all of a sudden you're getting wines that were really um for the average American wine consumer tasty and cheap you know so it was the first time it was really economical um and cheap and so okay you get in on the entry level and then you know Pinfuls and all these other producers want to start up in the price and it worked for a while and then it hit a ceiling or whatever that is$10 price point,$8, whatever it was with inflation. And Americans like, no we don't pay that for Australian wine we're we're used to paying$5 a bottle we're not paying$6 a bottle and the moral of the story is you can always lower your prices but you can never raise your prices and and almost to a T, that that holds true in just about every single uh you know situation that you can think of. Ergo, you can just get the winery up and so you can get your cash flow going. You're basically implying that you'll get the cash flow going and then you'll get the good wines and then you'll all of a sudden you'll jump from$25 to$50 right bottles of wine. And I'm saying the the research and the history says that that rarely and by rarely I mean never happens. Yeah so yeah it's got to be the other way way around. So the expect or the the as you correctly um I think ascertained whatever you think it's gonna cost if you really want to be that high end producer it's gonna cost far more and you know full disclosure I'm with the airlines to pay for this because we're not profitable yet. I mean that's something that I I've said it before I'm like the reality is we're doing the experiment. I don't know if it's gonna work it may be um that it's impossible with the economics. It very well could be uh but it's not going to stop us from from trying uh to to make a a wine that surprises and delights Somaliers in 10 or 15 years um and it's from Indiana fruit and and if nothing else we're trying to make it profitable where you can come to a place that's modeled after the old world and you sit by the vines that make I believe that that level of tradition and authenticity won't get old. And we're built to scale up to 3,000 cases and never go beyond that. I don't want to be St. Julian or uh you know one of those I just I'm I mean I'm not doing that. I'm not yeah I'm not you mentioned getting away from the winery not being tied to it. The only way in hell that we are could even imagine um dedic devoting the amount of time that we devote to it is if we're into the wines that we're making. Can you imagine being married to a winery that makes sweet wines that you hate yeah no the the business won't last because you'll quit you you'll be I'm done with this you know so in a certain sense the decision's made already for somebody that's passionate about it. Uh so it's it's kind of like it was never an option anyway. So that's where we're at with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:23

I I get you yeah no I agree. Doing something right from the beginning people are always going to respect that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

I th I I yeah I I I hope so. I hope so we'll we'll see um I I mean I think um it's not a foregone conclusion but I think um the the uh the indications uh cautiously optimistic would be where we're at because I think we have done it right we own it and uh and uh we've got some you know some good things I think the other thing too is and I I think we I've talked to you about this a lot of people get in when when this industry has never been a big moneymaker but people get into this industry to be a I'm gonna use their quotes winemaker for all kinds of different reasons.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

Randy my father-in-law I love him he's amazing and I think he does good things but he did not get into this to control every variable to say I want to maximize what Indiana can do I want to take this to the furthest extent and say you know this is what our land can produce um at an estate level and this is the very best he that's not why he got into this he wants to be the winemaker. He wants to be social he wants to be glass handing he wants to be you know what I mean like that's his motivation as in equal amounts with making okay wines like yeah yeah yeah and and you you'll meet if you meet 500 winemakers you're gonna meet 500 people whose priorities fall somewhere in being a complete geek about making the absolute best wine they can and controlling every possible variable to the full other side where they just want to be the winemaker. Like that's all they want. You know and and when Randy's done with this winery I none of none of us are going to take it over I mean because it was it was never about that. It was never about establishing what Indiana could do. It was about Randy being able to be what he wanted to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

So yeah it's just yeah no I mean and you know I it's far be it for me to to fault him on that um you know it's not aligned with what what I would want to see and and it doesn't, you know certainly being the kind of the wine geek that I am doesn't gravitate me towards wanting to be a a big fan of of of that particular product but I I don't fault him and and I I love the bash on slushy machines but um I I don't uh I don't uh h hold any ill will. It's just in fact I would make the counter argument that's like knock yourself out. I think that's only going to help our brand by by by staying true and staying authentic and and again I hope that forty or fifty years after you know the Indiana Wine Act that allowed us to s I mean the the industry's I think that was in 72. So we're we're a little over 50 years old where where you could have a a winery um in Indiana. So a lot's happened in that time we're still in our infancy still wild west but you know with the advent of the tech the technology and the information you know uh though the people that have come before us the Olivers you know the the sweet wine uh folks the Easleys uh you know okay they they've they've served their purpose and they've uh bred a a population of people that are elevated and and or not elevated but um are are are seeking a true authentic uh experience that has um you know not just palatable but but good interesting um form to fork wines and and that's kind of the experiment that we're trying to do to see can we make a profit and um make it profitable and and uh I got kicked out you got kicked out all right I wonder if maybe the cat ri uh tore the tore the uh let's see um yeah if you could I I see it went back to 46. Uh this this happened once or twice before we get stuck at 99 and um uh in in both cases uh it was a non-issue and even if the supports like I mean it's on your computer so um if you could just just uh we'll we'll hang up leave the browser open for a little while but it stays home at at um when I close out at 99 I'll talk to their mods and like I said before it it was it's it's not going to be an issue so we'll be good.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:15

Cool. Thanks so much it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

Yeah always love talking about this stuff man and uh I again anytime I'm there I'll I'll peek my head in and and and see if you're around so we can chat some more absolutely yeah and I need to come down and see the winery. Yeah please do all right man well we'll talk to you soon Michael you have a great great rest of your week you too thanks so much all right my pleasure man see ya all right all right all right thank you Michael for being on the podcast I really appreciate it always a pleasure talking to you and if you're ever in Grand Rapids make sure you swing by Right Banks Collections it's an awesome wine shop hopefully Michael's there and he will uh definitely learn some things always a pleasure so thank you guys for being here we'll talk to you again real soon peace