Prost! Podcast

Prost! Podcast Episode #28 - Michael W. Johnson I - Exploring the Modern Music Scene and Creative Processes

• Season 2 • Episode 28

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In this episode, we sit down with musician and producer Michael W. Johnson I to delve into his innovative approach to blending acoustic and electronic music, his experience with live backing tracks, and his perspective on supporting the local music scene. Whether you're a singer-songwriter, producer, or music enthusiast, there's valuable insight into the creative process and navigating the evolving industry.

Main Topics Covered

  • The integration of backing tracks in live performances and how Michael syncs and manages them
  • The influence of diverse genres, from folk to metal, on Michael’s songwriting and production style
  • The importance of authenticity and emotional honesty in songwriting
  • Building and supporting a local scene through social media, radio, and community engagement
  • The role of meditation and mindfulness in the creative process and mental health for artists
  • Technical setups including software like Ableton, Reaper, and portable controllers for live shows

Key Insights

  • Michael's detailed process of using an app called Easy Performer to trigger stems during performances
  • The impact of genres like new metal, folk, and power ballads on his songwriting
  • The significance of authenticity and vulnerability in building a genuine musical identity
  • Strategies for leveraging local radio and social media to promote emerging artists
  • The parallels between meditation/mindfulness and musical creativity
  • The importance of consistent content release and building luck through persistent effort

Timestamps

00:00 - Introduction to Michael Johnson and the underground radio scene
 01:20 - Michael shares his background and scene support efforts
 02:29 - Technical setup for backing tracks and live synchronization
 03:50 - Using stems and apps like Easy Performer for live shows
 04:54 - Overcoming technical challenges and sound engineering tips
 06:20 - Collaboration with UK producers and songwriting influences
 07:41 - The power of live backing tracks and stage presence
 08:41 - Connecting acoustic songwriting with electronic backing tracks
 09:36 - Influences from bands like Chevelle and the power of emotion in music
 10:52 - How chords and melody intertwine during songwriting
 12:20 - Genre differences: folk, power ballads, new metal, and eclectic influences
 14:41 - Playing with tuning and melodic tension in guitar work
 15:45 - Audience reactions to Michael’s modern sound at folk showcases
 16:47 - Authenticity in songwriting and avoiding clichés
 18:08 - The art of lyric writing and melody creation
 20:25 - Vocal influences and Michael’s vocal style
 22:26 - The relationship between lyrics and chord progressions
 24:31 - Creative inspiration, songwriting spurts, and patience
 26:45 - Meditation as a tool for artistic and personal growth
 27:50 - The euphoric feeling of performing and creating music
 30:53 - The importance of persistence and effort in songwriting
 32:42 - Michael’s collaboration with UK producer Jordan Lapping
 35:25 - The process of arranging and mixing tracks remotely
 37:46 - Recent releases and unreleased upcoming projects
 39:41 - Building confidence and reputation through local gigs
 42:22 - Supporting and growing the local scene through collaboration
 44:46 - Promoting original music versus tribute and cover bands
 46:34 - The future of the Richmond music scene and local support networks
 50:14 - The value of storytelling and emotional connection in performances
 52:24 - Sharing resources: radio, Facebook groups, and local promotion
 54:17 - Advice for new musicians: patience, authenticity, and persistence
 58:02 - Michael’s wrestling background and storytelling in performance art
 61:05 - Creative pursuits beyond music: visual arts, fabricating, and tech modding
 63:30 - Final thoughts on supporting local artists and future plans

SPEAKER_03

So what's up, y'all? This is your host, director of the Pro's Podcast, the Pilgrimage Wine Company, Indiana, where we focused on wine and bearing spirits in the best library music on the largest and business in the Midwest of art. All right, this week on the Pro's Podcast, I have Dr. Michael W. Johnson, the first on the podcast. And there's really nothing I can say that would give this guy a proper introduction. All I know is I love his enthusiasm. I'm a very talented musician, and uh got a lot of spirit and passion for the local music scene. So I hope you dig this interview.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like that'd be some pretty good synergy.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

I'm definitely access to a lot of places on that earth. It's an Irlem College, so it's like there's a lot of places he's got access to. He's got like three separate stages.

SPEAKER_03

Pirate Radio Station, COD Radio Station, um, the Underground Radio Station is is where it's at. And that to know that that we have that here is uh is going to be quite pivotal and and important um as we go forward. So we're getting started here. Oh, okay. Um today I have the honor of hosting in the studio Air Treaty Line Records and Recording Studio, Mr. Michael Johnson. Thank you, sir, for coming out and visiting us. Uh uh sorry it took so long to get you out here, but uh we're all busy with our lives and stuff. But uh appreciate you swinging by the studio to chat, man. How's how are things going?

SPEAKER_01

It's going very well. I I've been very busy over these last uh couple of weeks with a lot of different spots and gigs and things, and I'm very happy to be out here. I've wanted to be on this podcast ever since its inception, but I was a little too scared to ask about it. So when you reached out, I was like, oh yes, I can do this. I'm coming, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's just a matter of time. I mean, we've had a couple of the fellows out here, and and ideally, I mean, um I I would like to uh have just about anybody who's anybody in the scene out here to talk to them about their stuff. I just find it so fascinating. We're here to support. Um you're definitely um at the top of that list of of people doing interesting things here in the Richmond area. Um a little different sound than than uh you know some of the more traditional folk stuff, but um you've already played here once. Uh we are gonna have you out here in a couple weeks, uh hopefully as well for the showcase as well. Um don't want to date the thing because this will probably come out after that. But uh but yeah, I mean you're always welcome to to play your your music. It's it's again to a high level, clearly. You get a really interesting pass. And and I as I already mentioned before we started uh chatting, you're you're a super passionate guy. Um you already have you have a reputation as a passionate guy. You're a very talented musician, but you're also um an artist. I mean, you you you you have a lot of different uh unique things going on. So um I don't know. It's it's a pleasure to have you out here and um you know talk about Richmond music, talk about your music and all that good stuff. Um yeah, uh spring is more or less here out. It's crazy kind of weather going back and forth, but about to start moving the shows outside. Um I know uh man, we've got a lot to talk about. Um you uh you've put out some some releases from a a guy that I can't wait to hear about that you're working with, a producer in in Europe, um uh UK area. And then um you just played a show at E Street where you were using backing tracks, which is kind of next level stuff. I mean, we can get into the technical aspect of that. I'm very curious how you z you sync that stuff up. I don't know if you used Ableton or what programs you know, just straight up backing tracks and played the uh guitar to it. But but that can be um uh a little daunting. Uh um and I know you kind of shared with me how your mindset going into that, and then there's your songs are really interesting. So um a lot to talk about, man. So um appreciate you coming out and uh yeah, we'll get into it, man. So um uh yeah, I guess let's let's hear about that gig at uh E Street. Um I'm very curious. Were you playing st straight to backing tracks and and how long how how long a set did you end up playing?

SPEAKER_01

So like like uh uh it's no secret that I have uh uh a musical angel in the UK uh by the name of Jordan Lapping, and uh we've been working together for a few years. I I started doing like Drake Bell covers with him because that's what he liked. Um and I like it too. Drake Bell is actually a very talented musician, you wouldn't think that, but he's amazing. Um but we worked together, worked together, worked together, worked together, and then when I'm doing this musical resurgence thing, we started like really focusing on uh some of the songs that I had written, and uh he's just like a house on fire uh making these tracks and stuff for me and composing these things. And uh I got like uh I was talking to like E Street wanted me to come out. Uh well, it was the band Quimby, actually. Uh they got a hold of me and said, Hey man, we need an opener. Can you come out? And I was like, you know, yes, I can, because I was with uh another group called uh Vagabond, and we would go around and play a bunch of stuff, but I had all these backing tracks and I wanted to sound big and sound, you know, like at the end of like a vagabond show, you'd have, you know, Kyle, Chris, Tony, and all these people, they'd all just be this giant band playing all together and it sounds so big and full, and then it's just like it's me with a guitar, and I'm like, uh I sound really thin, like uh, you know. Um so they needed an opener, and I was like, okay, now it's time to try to do backing tracks, you know. So I got a hold of Jordan Lapping in the UK, and he sent me all the stuff we've been working on without vocals and instrumentalists, just like instrumental tracks. Stems, basically. Yeah, basically stems, yeah. And I was able to uh I have a I have an uh it's not an iPad, it's a tablet, it's like a Galaxy tablet. And I got uh it's called Easy Performer. It's just an app, right? And it's got like uh what you would think like drum pads are, it's just like that on a screen, and I've got each backing track and each one, and they're all they're all together, so it's not like I gotta start piano and drums and whatever and a bunch of different pads, it's all one pad. Okay. And I'm just like, okay, I introduced myself to the thing and I'll hit it and then I play with it. Okay. And I'll play and sing with it. It's got I made sure to leave like background vocals and harmonies and like all the like supporting instruments and stuff behind it. And so like when we get to a high note and there's a bunch of like harmony behind it that comes through too. Um The only thing that I don't like is that I I tend to keep it in a mono output because you don't know what the um the the venue is gonna be able to handle.

SPEAKER_03

No, I think that's probably smart. Yeah. And and obviously a a stereo recording, especially with more cinematic music, is gonna probably have stuff ping-pong. It does, it does ping pong, yeah. Uh yeah, you you know, you gotta go mono on a in a big room. I mean, I I I've I've stopped um, you know, even running a left right out of our mixers because it's like what's what's the point? Just one one channel, especially for acoustic, there's just no reason for it. But um so when you hit hit play, um the song length's fixed, right?

SPEAKER_01

There's no uh way to kind of um Yeah, there's not really much wiggle room once it starts, yeah. Um but that's the beauty of uh Jordan in the UK. Like if I if I play a show and I do the backing track and there's something in that song that I'm playing with that I'm like, oh, we could do something this like that one, I can tell Jordan and he'll go and like augment it for me. Yeah, you know. He can make things longer, shorter, he can make he can make me a track that's just for the live performance if I wanted to. Uh and then I always have the option to be like, all right, I'm just gonna play a song acoustically, you know, if I if I want to. But uh I was scared, man, because I did it, I did one time I tried to do it with Vagabond, and um when we hooked it up, it had it the whole every track I played was like echoey and wavy. And I think that might be because we were using that one giant um thing and it was probably coming out stereo. Yeah. So it's probably like wavy. Yeah. But I made it on I made it mono and they hooked it up at E Street. And Brian Elstro is a hell of a sound man, you know. And so he made sure that my backing tracks and my live stuff like was very right where it needed to be level wise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And uh stuff on the fly by yourself.

SPEAKER_01

I gotta tell you, that was like the first time I had really in earnest played with all the backing tracks before. Like I was nervous to do it, but I wanted to. We were on the stage with our lights and stuff, because a lot of times I go to Easter, we're just playing on the floor. We're on the stage, we had all the lights going, the backing tracks are going, everything's loud and boomy. I can feel it. Like it's uh you can feel it. And I was that's the most I had been into playing uh on stage in a while because I just knew everything was hidden on all cylinders. Uh I might I might have missed a chord here or there, but like man, it felt good. I can just close my eyes and feel it in my chest and bellow out the vocals and just man, it was it was really good.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah. I have not done a lot of gig, but uh as we were talking about earlier, like my my approach to production and songwriting, um, it starts with the guitar. I'm I'm a guitarist first, but then um I'm always thinking in terms of backing backing tracks basically. What's the bass drums and and the electric guitar uh gonna do? What what's the melody? Um and so I've always been interested. Um I I use uh Ableton even as my main sequencer, it's famous for being able to, in some ways, sequence the meat of the stems, but then you have a little pedal there, and if you want to stay, if you're a jam band, you want to stay in the in the groove for a for an extended solo, you just let it go, and then when you're ready to go, you pop out. So there are ways I know technically to to kind of do it, but you know, you're a- I'm pretty new to it. You're you're asking for a lot of troubles as is as as far as that's concerned as well. But I I think doing backing tracks, obviously, um, you know, there's just a bazillion ways to skin the cat. So I was very interested in that. But let's let's, you know, for people who don't know who you are, um uh, you know, what what is your um let's talk influences like what uh how would you even categorize the music that you're you're playing? Um what what who are some of your influences and and what these new releases with the guy that you're working with um out of uh is it England?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I'm I don't remember where he's from. I just know he's in the UK.

SPEAKER_03

UK. Um but but I mean and and um I've checked out some of his stuff online as well. Uh I know he does uh kind of a studio rat. He's he's a producer and and uh does a lot of really cool stuff.

SPEAKER_01

But he's also a music teacher. Uh he's he's really, really he's just really good, right? I'm lucky to know him.

SPEAKER_03

That's cool. Well, how did you meet?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. Well, uh I wanted to do a Drake Bell cover for some song I was doing.

SPEAKER_03

That's I mean, I gotta ask. I I don't know who Drake Bell is.

SPEAKER_01

Uh Drake Bell uh there was an old show on Nickelodeon called Drake and Josh. Okay. Right. And uh Drake from there's a little bit after my own. Yeah, right. I mean me too, really, but my kids liked it. So he ended up releasing albums because he was he played a musician on the show, but uh he ended up becoming a very uh talented musician on his own. And he got a band and stuff, and I wanted to do a cover of one of his songs, uh I believe it was Telegraph or something. Uh maybe I found him on YouTube or something rather, and I was like, hey, I want to put vocals over this little thing you did. And then we just talked a bit and we became fast friends, and then he's like, Well, what are you working on? I'm doing this and listen to this. And we uh I think the first full song we ever put uh together that was original, that was mine, was It Slowly Burns. And that became that became the first release on my new Spotify that I that is part of this musical resurgence.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. So um again, what what what style?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, oh so the style, the music that I listen to and the music that I make are vastly different. You know, like I do have a new metal album on Spotify that sounds a lot like corn or deftones or something like that. And I made that with another guy in the UK, oddly enough, who's German. Uh-huh. So it it the world's a funny place, but his name uh he went by MemQ. It was like M E MQ, and we made that whole new metal album together. And I that's amazing. That's a good part of my childhood that I love is that kind of music, like corn and deft tone slip knot, that kind of thing. But I learned how to play guitar with my mom's old country flat top, you know what I mean? Uh it was basically me in my living room with a boom box with a little bitty like microphone, and I would just make music or whatever. I was terrible, obviously. Yeah, but I was learning through acoustic and I was very much into acoustic. And so I'm I mean, I don't think I'm like a folk musician, but like I love acoustic music. It's in my blood, you know. Uh it's what I started with, it's what I love. And there's something to be said about I love the power and the feeling of those backing tracks, but there's also something to be said about sitting in a chair by a fire or something like that, or sitting in an intimate space and just playing straight acoustic guitar and putting out the emotion of the songs, you know. So as far as a genre goes, I want to say I'm singer-songwriter, you know, when it comes to the acoustic stuff, but then the backing tracks get so big and powerful you could think of that as like power ballads or something like that. Um, especially there's there's a few songs that could really be considered power because they they always start really soft and they build and they build and they build, and by the end of it, everything's going crazy, everything is big and wide and like stereo and well, I don't know about that, but then it's it's almost like every song takes you on a ride, it's like up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and then you know, the song ends and then we start over up. You know, it starts very softly, it's you know.

SPEAKER_03

I think power ballads is a good way to describe what I've heard. Um again, I I lack the musical uh vocabulary to kind of like pigeonhole um certain um you know bands because I've I'm admittedly very insular in my music. I listened to the same stuff I listened to 30 years ago. Same out of uh uh you know, so you know, uh southern college rock and stuff like that. And and um I'm still, you know, uh getting uh you know into Spotify and and and discovering new bands. I've been not the best about that, I'll I'll admit. But um yeah, I I and I this might sound a little stupid, but um I hear like uh shades of like effervescence and and and the way um when I I ha because I haven't heard you with the backing tracks, but but um uh extremely melodic dissonance, if you will, and and some of the chord progressions. And you don't always play in standard tuning, right? You you play in a lot of I keep I keep my guitar.

SPEAKER_01

Which is hard next level. I mean right.

SPEAKER_03

Again, I'd say ninety-five percent of guitarists never venture out of standard tuning and here you are playing. And it gives you um a a a a certain vibe and and and and uh I guess tension and and and some of the the melodic. But um it always strikes me like I I I don't know what what I would expect to hear from you, but when you get up and and play, um even at those Vegabon um, you know, showcases, you know, everybody's kind of doing their their folk thing or or whatever. And and to be honest, uh what's really cool about those shows was that um there was a vibe, but there was also uh quite a bit of distinction in the in the various players. I mean, there's a lot of people doing nobody there there there's nobody was doing the same thing. And and you definitely were kind of coming out uh uh from uh left field with a much more kind of modern sound. Um but it was fantastic. I I even the showcase you played here, it was quite different from the more traditional folk stuff. But I can tell you personally there were more than a handful of people that came to me afterwards and was like, who is that guy? Uh that's Michael Johnson. It's like I dig his stuff. Like it like it was so different. I didn't know that. That warms my heart. Yeah, no, there were there were a lot of people that that just love that that more modern um I don't know if it's eighties or two thousands kind of um it sounded like uh Jars of Clay is another one that it kind of strikes me as. It's it's got that acoustic exactly like you just described. There's there's the acoustic undertone, but man, the you know, you've got the modern drum sounds and and you know the the edgy guitars and stuff, but it but it's not as raw and aggressive as say a corn or or something like that. It's it's a little bit more uh commercial, but not in a bad way. It's just very melodic and um you you write you write really, really great songs. So um that that that that certainly um helps helps the the equation.

SPEAKER_01

But uh I always I always write I write based on the emotion I'm feeling at the time. Okay. You know, like it I never say that I I pull songs out of the th the thin air, the songs come up from out of me. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Um that's a good way to do it. We were talking about that earlier, and and uh and I'll definitely bite on that and and ask you some questions about that. Um you know, uh if you're you know writing um uh you know from what you know and not trying to write um something that's fake, that that goes a long way to helping your authenticity, which which is which is pr obviously pretty important, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I am I am any I'm anything if I'm not authentic, you know, I'm very authentic.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Um so so that that's that's a big thing. And I'm not trying to I mean sometimes you do, you know, I I I like to say, you know, because we are so so you' so so uh in on the the live local and original music. Want to hear people bear their souls. And and then people are like, Well, um, I just don't write write great songs. And I'm like, well, you know, I I get it, you know, it can be a little bit of a mental um uh you know challenge to find your voice, figure out what you want to say. Because again, when you're a new songwriter, a lot of times um you can maybe find yourself falling into a lot of cliches and and it's like, well, I've heard other people sing songs like this, so this must be what I need to what I need to to write about. And and and no, you you got you know, th you can be an original music musician and write bad songs, is basically what I'm saying. It's it's not a guarantee that you're just gonna come out swinging at a high level. But but one thing that can be um quite quite uh important is to at least uh have it be from your soul. And I feel I feel like even um as a as a as a maybe a a younger uh songwriter, um as long as you're being authentic and true to yourself, then even if it is a little cliched, that that's part of that roadmap to get to those really good songs that you're gonna write write later on. So that's part of the journey. Yeah. Um but again, I guess more to the point, like um uh again, I uh my style has always been kind of either very, very obscure and abstract, kind of a word collage to being if it's a literal song, um, being very self-depreciating, because I I I don't want to come off as pretentious. That's just my kind of style, you know. Um yours, uh what I what I remember hearing, it's um I know that you uh obsess over certain lines and stuff. Um there is it's it's quite deliberate. Um and um yeah, I just I I've just I find myself like always banging like right, right songs, right song.

SPEAKER_01

And then uh when somebody comes at with a song and it's it's heavily cliche, I'm like, uh I mean I also try to avoid uh a lot of metaphorical stuff too. Because if if I if I say a bunch of lines that could be interpreted 17 different ways, then you don't understand what the song was about. You know? And that's what another thing with your songwriters on the round, like you can sit there and explain what the song's about. Yeah. But if you're just hearing the song raw, you know, you're like, oh well, this could mean this or this or this, but I I try to tend to write very straightforward and blunt so that like people don't misconstrued what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03

100%. I love that. And and and and again, I just contradict you by saying, like, there's a beauty in in the art of of sometimes just throwing a bunch of words and letting the user choose your own adventure, like figure out how they want to interpret it. And then you've got the more literal sense, but you know, where it's like um, you know, you want them to 100% understand that's the beauty of of being a songwriter. Now, the nuance is is it cheesy or is it working? Um, is it part of of of your vibe and and your approach to things? Um so again, there is no right way, there's no wrong way. There's no there are all different ways. For me, again, I'm giving you the kudos, like it never strikes me as pretentious because I love the melody and uh th you have some some pretty um you know uh uh uh heavy um uh hooks that things that are are um you know that do kind of grab me and pull me in. So um yeah, before I lose my train of thought, sorry, um you you're talking uh about uh from a a lyrical standpoint, but where does the melody come from? Like what what is um because those things are so finely ingrained and there it is such a distinct sound when I hear you like yeah, I I I feel like um I don't know who what what give me some vocalists that you think you you sound like 'cause I feel like there's one or two that that uh is there anybody that jumps to your mind?

SPEAKER_01

I I get uh unfortunately I get I get stained a lot. Okay, I only say unfortunately because of how he turned out later in life, but uh so

SPEAKER_03

I get the story because um with with not not a not a savory character or Nah he uh he he did some unsavory things later on in life, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um so I get stained a lot. Um I I can't really think of uh I think I I got Chevelle a couple of times.

SPEAKER_03

It's that's that style and genre of of of music. But you but you do it very, very, very well. I think stained actually, I do I do recall their music, and um I hear some of that as well. It's that style, and I think that's why people because those were were very, very popular songs. And again, it's your take. I'm not saying that it's it's it's completely Michael Johnson, it's not stained at all, but it's it kind of in that in that that that vein in that genre um in some ways kind of chilled back. Um But I think what made those songs so great is the power of the emotion and kind of the the the strip the the you know slowed down tempo. It's it's it's it's foreboding, but not in like a a dark death metal kind of like uh like like aggressiveness. It's it's this foreboding kind of um melancholy, open, you know, tuning type things. Um you know what what is that interplay between the lyric and the music? Do you come up with the with the chords first and then fit the lyric to it? Is it all happening together? That's kind of how I operate. I'm mumbling things and it's like, okay, now I'm gonna I'm a mumbler.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, mumbler, yes. Um no I know that so much.

SPEAKER_03

But but you have to but because that's what I notice, like the way your your harmonies flow, yeah. But the guitar parts, they're kind of locked in in a certain respect. Um, very difficult to do. Maybe Maynard could do it, maybe some people like that.

SPEAKER_01

I do get that sometimes. Tool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But but but but for me, um it's like when you're playing the chord progression and then the the lyric locks into the way uh the voicing and that chord changes, it's happening uh subconsciously and instantaneously, but I feel like sometimes I'll hum a certain line to a curtain progression, and now that's baked in and I can't change it. I fit the words to it.

SPEAKER_01

Is that kind of so I mean it a lot of the songs that I have written came from noodling, honestly. Yeah, noodling. Uh m messing with different chord shapes and different uh progressions, and a lot of it uh I like a lot of my earlier stuff because I didn't know a lot of what I was doing. So a lot of stuff I was doing back then was very much outside the norm because I didn't know music theory back then, all this kind of stuff. So um that's why a lot of the songs that I've been doing lately. Yeah, I was free. Yeah. Uh a lot of it was bad, obviously, but then I'm like, hey, can you Jordan, can you take this like three-song thing I or three-chord thing I made 20 years ago? Can you make that into something? And boom, there's a new power ballad because Jordan's amazing. Um But uh it's usually like I I find a chord progression that I like, and then I just start talking gibberish, you know, like uh blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then sometimes I'll say a couple of words and then I'll be like, oh, that those words there. Now build from there, you know. Okay, okay, now I've got this phrase. Okay, build it from that. And then sometimes a title, just a song title, hit me in the side of the head out of nowhere, and I'll be like, okay, well, now I've got the title, so I'm gonna write the entire song based on that title. Yeah. And then I go from there, you know? Um it's usually just I don't want to say it's like a meditation thing, but it's like uh 100% is a meditation thing.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right, right. I don't know if you are you are you do you meditate at all?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, not in the traditional sense of like, you know, ohm ohm or whatever, but like I give you a s a deep thought, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, but but the but the but as far as I understand, and I am not an expert.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but even uh my my employer, my which is a you know Fortune 500 my employer even teaches us breathing techniques and things for for mental acuity and things like that. So it's not like this is foo-foo stuff. At the end of the day, it's just about c letting your giving your mind a break. Right stop from its incessant just 100% going as you go to sleep, just run and run and run and run and run and run. And you know, us Westerners are none the wiser, you know, the you know, more eastern philosophy is like that's that's not good for your your health. You need to you need to uh let your mind have a break.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

But um, I've heard it described as a bicep curl for the brain, just letting it rev down a little bit so it's not deep concentration, it's the absence of thought at all. And when you come out of the meditation because you haven't been thinking about anything other than being in the moment, as I say, then you find yourself it's so subtle because we're used to instant delay, you know, gratification, little micro dopamine hits incessantly from the phone, you know, you know, caffeine and sugar from our our you know, Joel, you know, our our Red Bulls and Cokes and you know. Um we're always wired in modern mother culture to just be constantly bombarded with things. And then you when you give yourself a break, um, as you as I feel like I've gotten older and I'm able to uh pick up on these subtle subtleties, you do come out of it with just a s just an ever uh slight more bit of a little bit of peace. Now, why do I even bring this up? Because I I'm gonna guess you would agree with me that when you're playing the guitar, you're not thinking about that bad thing that happened to you at work. You're not thinking about this. When you're playing the guitar, as far as I'm concerned, it's basically a form of meditation. You're at the moment, you're playing and nothing else matters. Right. That is why I think music well, amongst other things, is is is you know, I know you mentioned that you have kids. Um for my daughter, why I think it's so I want her to develop a love of music because it's it's something that's brought me so much uh uh just such a uh you know a valuable reason to live. Um but uh yet another reason would be those those micro uh meditations that come with being in the moment, playing a music is something that's uh unfortunately rare in in our culture. Um what do you say?

SPEAKER_01

I I agree. Uh and it's like so those micro moments where you're playing guitar at home and you're building a song and you can feel the um the excitement of like making a song out of nothing, right? And then those little moments of like joy, happiness, meditation, like the the rest of the world shuts off and you're you're just in it, right? That's cool because it builds to how you're gonna feel when you're playing that song on stage. Yeah. And the feeling that you get when everything's hitting right and you're that song you're putting out into the world and you're on stage, uh it's like you're doing it here and then you get that, you know. It all leads up to that, and that is almost euphoric. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_03

No, that's a great point too, because um again, there's no real getting around the fact that in some ways you the brain doesn't know whether it's a drug that you're introducing, you know, synthetically or or you're having the euphoric experience of of it it's partly why I think a lot of times um artists after they play that big show, they're they're they're they're uh frankly, they're lost. Because they there there's no way you can top that. Unless the come down from the I feel that when I'm producing music, um I we'll have a session and it's just I mean I'll man a great it's sounding great. And you know what? You know what? I'm gonna stay up all night. I'm I'm working on this track because there's nothing I want to do. And and then and then I mean just like just like uh just like uh you know, Bender, like you you know, the next day there's there I'm I'm like Frank, you know, in some ways depressed because it's like you know, how are you gonna top that that that that feeling of elation of creating and making something great, whether you're somebody's so um that again that is something but but and the best anecdote for that is just to meditate and give your brain a rest. But like it's gonna be all right, man. Right. But but yeah, I mean um that that that form of creation, you mentioned it again, something that I whole wholeheartedly agree with in terms of the the creation process. Um and and again we talk about it, uh the the idea of um you know when you're sitting down with really a blank piece of paper and you're just trying to write, um, it's like going fishing. You know, you're throwing the the hook in the water, maybe you get a good worm or or not, who knows? Are the fish biting? Um you never know. Um but uh you've written some good songs, um I've written one or two decent ones um when you have the the specter of potentially in 15 minutes bringing birthing a song, bringing it into the world and having the artist's inclination of what this might eventually become, um that is quite an alluring and you never know. And most of the time, most people I know, I mean AJ Wetzel, he writes a song a week. Uh, you know, he's he's quite pro Jansen. I mean, well, there's a lot of people that are writing a lot of music um quite frequently, and others like me, uh I'll have little spurts where I might write, you know, five songs in five weeks and then not write another one for a year. Right. Um you just never know. But but every now and again a great song comes out, and the fact that that's always a possibility is is uh is always fascinating to me. And then the the flip side of that is you're not gonna get anything if you don't put in the time. You're never gonna catch a single fish if you never throw a hook in the water. So do you keep going back? Um I'm one of my favorite bands, Deathcab for Cutie, it's an indie band out of Portland. Um Ben Gibbard, the singer, he's like, you know, you gotta put in the work. You gotta put in the work. There's no getting away with it. And and if you put in the work and you're there ready, willing to receive from the big man um that strike of inspiration, um, you will be rewarded. Um you just you just never know when it's gonna happen, but it's never gonna happen. Well, as they as they say, you know, you you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. So all of those things I'm hearing you say, and I'm like, I think you're right. Right.

SPEAKER_01

I think you're right. Well, there's also something to be said about, you know, uh don't be upset with, and this is for like aspiring musicians or people who are like, don't be afraid to just go and meditate with the guitar and play it. So you don't have to create a hit every time you touch your guitar. Like there's gonna be a million times that you noodle around and nothing comes out of it. So don't don't let yourself get uh low or depressed because oh, I'm just not writing anything. Songs I have learned, uh I've been doing this for a long time. I have learned songs come when they come. Even if you have a nugget of an idea that you can't finish and it's been on the back burner for 10 years, some some sort of inspiration will come and smack you and be like, oh, I'm finishing that song now because it finally happened. Songs do not exist until they're ready. Yeah. And I don't know if that's a universal thing or a cosmic thing or whatever, but like you can't force it. If you force it, you can tell. Yeah. You know, you can tell if a song is forced.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I I I totally agree. You just uh but you gotta put in the time, you gotta be willing, and yeah, and uh exactly sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But but I always find that that fascinating. So um, yeah, well that's that's super freaking cool. Um let's again talk about Jordan. What's what's his process? Uh you said he's a music teacher. Um, you know, the instrumentation, what does he work with uh artists? Does he track that stuff? Um he's got a studio, obviously.

SPEAKER_01

I I mean I believe so. Um uh as far as what he does when he's not doing stuff with me.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, you do you just record uh the the blank acoustic vocal and then he sends it back and then uh processes it? Do you um I mean you mentioned you have like a uh what a a focus right scarlet or yeah, yeah. I mean that that is like so that's all you really need, honestly.

SPEAKER_01

I think he's uh I think he might also be like a session a session musician because I know he does a lot of gigging too. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Um but uh he's essentially a music producer.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I would say that, yeah. Uh he's a music teacher, he's a producer, definitely for me. I don't know how how many people he produced.

SPEAKER_03

Does it come back fully mixed and mastered?

SPEAKER_01

Or do you think it's levels, you know. So um like like recently I'm trying to make this album of of songs that I made when I bef when I was free before I understood music theory and things like that. I got like I found a whole um Ziploc bag full of cassette tapes from me being in there in my early days just with the guitar. Um and I've been I pulled him out, I listened to him, and I I I put up my camera and I was like, play I played them for him. And I was like, this is what this sounds like, right? And he was like, okay, so he'll he'll take my idea and he'll turn it into uh something and he'll send it back to me and he'll ask me my opinion, like, okay, what do you think of this direction? What do you think of this? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, cool, that's that's good or bad or whatever, change this or do this little thing or like talking drums, bass uh electric. Yeah, he'll do he'll do piano, he'll do violins, he'll do uh little uh harp stuff. Like a lot of stuff he plays, and then some stuff he's got samples for, you know. So like he plays the piano, he plays the guitar, plays the bass, plays the drums. Uh well, I'm not sure if he plays the drums because he's got a friend named Ian who will play some drums on my tracks from time to time. Um, but mainly he'll do the piano, he'll do the guitars, a bunch of guitars. Um, he'll I think he plays the bass on them. He might program a couple of them, but I'm pretty sure he actually plays them. Um and then he'll put that all together, and if it's a big ballad thing, he'll throw in some violins, he'll throw in little harp things, a little uh chandelier things, what to make it big, wide, and cool, you know, and unique. And then he'll send it back to me, and then when uh when we're finally happy with where the the track itself is, then I'll I'll throw well I'll do some scratch vocals, obviously, but then I'll do like the the main, this is gonna be the vocal recording for it, and then I'll do harmonies, and then I'll do, you know, l left, right, side to side, blah, blah, blah, all this kind of stuff, and add like the little ad libs and things in there, and then it becomes what it becomes. Technically, and I know this might this might sound uh a little off-putting to some listeners, but I don't actually play any instruments on those tracks. I wrote them, right, and I played them, but it's much easier for him to just go ahead and play it himself in his own mix because he's there. Okay. It would be like a like an extra two or three steps for me to do it and then send it to him. Okay. You know, I mean, I got the focus right. I could do it. I use uh uh Reaper, uh, which some people also might look down on, but it gets it gets updated every like three days, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_03

So no, the Reaper's uh I haven't followed it in a while, but even back in the day, I think it's you've got some open source programs. There's a lot of things that people like to do.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's so close to Sony Vegas, and I used to be a video editor. So like all the keyboard shortcuts and stuff, they're all basically the same on Reaper. So I didn't really have to learn anything, you know. That's why I went with that.

SPEAKER_03

Um but but you're vocal on there, obviously.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you it's always my vocal. Uh it's usually it's it's always my harmonies. In the very beginning, um like sometimes I can't like I can't figure out what I want for a section of harmonies or something like that. And uh Jordan, since he's a music teacher, he's really good at talking to you about things. So I'm like, man, I just can't, I can't get this harmony on this thing. And he'll be like, okay, look, so here it is on the piano, here it is on the guitar, you know, uh, you got your guitar at home, you know, find this note on this fret and try to get your voice there. And so I uh there was a time a couple of it was a couple of weeks ago, actually, I was like banging my head against the wall trying to get a very specific harmony that I could not figure out sonically. And it took me a minute, but with Jordan's help, like I got through it, you know, and and it's on it's on the uh it's on the recording. So that's really good. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Uh I know you dropped several songs relatively recently. What what what was that?

SPEAKER_01

A lot of them aren't released. Uh so uh like the only thing that uh a new page two two songs out of it. It Slowly Burns and A Letter to Myself are live on Spotify and all platforms right now. Okay. But then when I played the E Street show, I played a lot of unreleased stuff. And then when I made the video for that, I put like the actual the track that we're gonna release on top of it to make it, you know, sound good.

SPEAKER_03

Like how long a set was that?

SPEAKER_01

It was uh it was an hour. All right, so that's it. And and like Jordan said, what a what a privilege it is to be able to go and play your own music for an hour anywhere.

SPEAKER_03

We were we were talking about that again, um mindsets and whatnot, but I I thousand percent agree. Um yeah, and uh uh it's yeah, it's it's uh it's an I wouldn't say underserved, it's a it's a market that uh, you know, frankly, a lot of people um I wouldn't say have given up on, but you know, it it's no joke. And and we we um we we s kind of say it tongue in cheek, you know, with the business here, uh making starving artist wines for starving artists, supporting starving artists. Um yeah, it's far more lucrative to go play a cover set, but obviously Quimby, who's a pretty renowned j uh jam ban around here um they freaking are b are amazing players, uh love the stuff that they do. Um, you know, to have them uh they're they're not they're not looking for somebody to come play a bunch of Eagles and Right, uh whatever. Uh you know, they they want to hear somebody, you know, play their own music.

SPEAKER_01

And for my next Nirvana cover.

SPEAKER_03

And then again, I I hate to disparage that. I I certainly played a ton of of of cover music. I for me at least, I didn't come out of the you know the the gate swinging, writing great songs. In fact, like you said, a a lot of the songs I wrote early on were not good. Right, me too. But what I learned by playing um, you know, 200 gigs a night in Gainesville back in the day uh for several years was uh the insides and outsides of the songs that I loved, which then informed how I was able to write songs. So that's just part of the process. I'm never disparage anybody for doing any of that. And and and frankly, there's it's an overserved market in my opinion. There's tons of tons of places you can and tribute bands are having their moment. And that's great, that's true too, yeah. Tribute bands. It's it's all good. I I I get it, I see why people want it. But again, um we're here talking about it and and what we support here at the at the winery in the vineyard and some of the things that we have coming is is I want to hear and you know, support people like yourself that are writing their own music, they have their own take on it and doing cool things with the technology that's out there. It's it's the hard, it's the tough road, you know. So I have a ton of respect for people that are recording and releasing songs. Um it's just what I'm into. And uh the the second part of that is it's easy to lean into trying, you know, starting this podcast and supporting and doing these cool interviews. One week it's a winemaker, the next week it's a local artist. Um, because fortunately for me, there's a lot of really good artists around here, you know. I'm and I'm I've been really super stoked and and and pleased at um the fact that it it's not hard to find somebody to come out and talk to me about their music and their process because there's so many really talented people. And I'm I feel like I'm just scratching the surface. Uh there's still plenty of guys, even in in um, you know, uh from Craig Wynn to Tony Hawley to Isaac Ellison. I mean, there's a there's a ton of really t um amazing ca Chris. I I want to have all these guys uh out here to tell me b about uh how they do what they do because um it's it's uh it's it's a great story uh and how you slice it.

SPEAKER_01

I I also really enjoy the fact that for the most part we're all very supportive of each other. Yeah. That's key. Like you see me on a radio station or something, I mention everybody's names. You know, uh I know Tony has mentioned me in a lot of places. Uh I'm I don't I'm not sure uh Kyle's always been doing really well about, you know, trying to get us all to come out to do certain things and whatnot. Like we if we see an opportunity, we don't just run off and selfishly take it for ourselves, you know. If we see an opportunity, we're like, okay, yeah, I want to do this. Uh can my friends come? You know, or like, hey, maybe like uh like maybe I can get Tony to do it the next time it comes around or something like that. Like now I know this spot exists or like this thing exists. Uh they offered it to me or they offered it to Tony or whatever. Um now we know that's a thing and we can get our friends to go and do that the next time or on the same bill or whatever it is, you know.

SPEAKER_03

And that's that's key. And then um again, bringing more people into the full bill. Like, you know, that's that's another thing that um that I have realized and and am heavily leaning into. Like we are the scene, and it'll be as good or as bad as we want it to be. And that's another thing that I really respect about you. Like you're out there pounding the pavement, you are doing you know, there's one thing that um was pretty evident clearly on, and you those guys they constantly say this about you, which is another um really uh uh positive um kind of endorsement is that you um you're you're you're very, very again, we don't mention authentic but you you put you principled. You you you say what you mean and you And you mean what you say and not that you know those guys aren't or anybody isn't, but you're you're very um passionate and and um you know a straight shooter in that respect and you're you're you're bullish on the scene, as am I. Um and it's important for us to realize like we kinda are are the scene as all of us are the scene. And so yeah, if we want it to grow, and I do believe or as they say, our a rising tide raises raises all boats, um we have to be positive. We gotta play nice in the sound, we gotta support each other, we gotta you know, and and and those, you know, the the the jamborees that you know Tony and and and Kyle are doing now, go play those gigs. Okay, I know somebody else is really good at guitar. Like the more we can and it's not gonna happen tomorrow, it's not gonna happen overnight. But you know, Homak is coming to Richmond next year. We're gonna have a f a spotlight shining on us. All of the best songwriters are coming in here. Um Joe Augustine and all those guys, and Craig Wynn and uh Brian and Elstra. I mean, there's there's some really and I and I'm new to the party. I mean, I I fully admit that. I'm I'm not saying that um you know it's any better or worse for me, but I am fully on here to support and uh you know, all of the guys that are coming out playing playing these gigs for Joe and Kyle and Cody and and whatnot, it's it's our job to um to just be as passionate as you and I are and and um you know just try and get more and more and more people involved. Why? Why? Because the music buying public in in a large respect are kind of like sheep and they're gonna go to what's what they're comfortable with, and that means probably a cover band or a tribute band. And we're here and like I mentioned, you know, we've got this record coming out for Treaty Line Records with eight artists that are local here, eight songs, volume one, and I hope to God there's a volume two, three, three.

SPEAKER_01

I hope to be on volume two.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I mean, dude, uh you the the the you know the the the offer will be there. Um it's our way of showing that you don't need to listen to something you've heard a million times before. There's really awesome local music happening right now.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_03

That is my the first shot fired. Like here's proof. Right. And there's a lot more of it. Um and and so you know, we're gonna just keep chopping away and and showing people, you know, that I'm excited about the fact that there's a local um uh radio station that's supporting artists. And and again, we're you know, I I know that they've been having rappers, they've been having, you know, more of the metal. We're into more of the singer-songwriter folk thing. Um that's not to say that that that that we can't get along with those those groups at all. What we want to do is is throw gas on the fire, which is Eastern Indiana Live Local and Original Music. I don't care what form of sh you know shape it is, um, it's all good. And it's very, very important in this day and age for for people to be creative and and uh you know keep their sanity as as best they can. So um I love that you're that you're as passionate about it. Keep you know obviously doing what you're doing. Um you know, and and and part of that is supporting your own music and continue to make good music, make the best music you can, but also support those artists and and uh do exactly what you're doing. I mean, I think it's it's critical. And and again, but to circle the point, it's like um nobody else is gonna do it. It's it's up to us to to to be the scene and and and um support the music. And and we're doing it. We're we're doing everything we can. I'm a big fan of Joe uh Augustine. Um he hosts his show, I think, you know, the the you know, with the library and and Roscoe's and and uh Flavor Notes and on these different things. Um and in some ways, uh, you know, there is starting to become a a little bit of a uh an intermeshing of of the different groups. You know, there's there's several venues. We hope there's more, but um there's some cool stuff going on, man. There's there's no way, shape, or form. In that vein, I mean, um give me the lowdown on the the radio show that you were just on. Like what was that what was that all about? And what do you what'd you like what was your vibe with with with uh who who is it that that hosts it by the way?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I think he he calls himself J Mobie or something like that. But uh yeah, uh before I jump on that, do I also want to say like all the stuff you've just been mentioning with about the different shows, the library and things like that. Like I did make uh um a brand new Facebook group. Uh it's called like Richmond, Indiana music scene. Exactly what I'm talking about. Everything I see on my feed, I try to share in there. Dude, that's great. That's great. The problem with that is sometimes Facebook doesn't show me something till two days too late. So I'm trying to be like, guys, if you have a show, if you have a flyer, send it to me, share it in the group. I'm trying, I'm I try to make it so that it's for musicians and their fans. Like I want to get all the musicians in there, but I also want to get the local area in there so they can know where in fact I'll probably put this at the beginning of the show, just to be like, look, there is again a resource because that's exactly what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_03

Like we're trying to like show and and it's it's yes, we want to condition people in the local area to be like, dude, there's some really great musicians. And again, AJ and and Paul, you know, and and and Chris and Kyle and uh and man, there's just so many I'm drawing a blank on a couple guys whose face I can see in my head, but I mean there's just um there's uh some really, really, really good talent. And and um it's funny, one one of the people came on the show and they're like, you know, um when I play locally, nobody shows up because they they feel like they can see me anywhere. But then if I go play in Ohio or Illinois, like people assume when they see me that I'm from out of state, I must be pretty good. And they and then they they give me more and I'm like, wow, yeah, that's so true. Like I'm we're all local here, and people are saying, Well, you're local, you must not you must not be good enough to get out of town. And and it's like, no. I mean, is that what people were saying to Nirvana in Seattle? And then no, no. I mean, like again, part of what you're doing and the record that we're putting out, and hopefully more to come and and and more of these more high pro like is is to like like somehow figure out a way, and marketing is a big part of it, to to to convince people the music's there, but we go back to the story. What what's the story all about? Why when we do the song right on the round? This get this narrative going that these guys every musician you've ever seen was small at s at some point. Right. Like what w why why is it so hard to believe that AJ isn't the next Nashville superstar or or or you know uh Kyle and the Mortonians, you know, can't have a song on uh you know that that that hits it big on the end the the college rate, whatever. I mean but you can't have a great great album. I mean, yes, the music business is just notoriously tough, and maybe um setting those you know goalposts is is kind of maybe not what it's all about. We've already talked about that the creative outlook we in some ways do it for ourselves. We want to create an emotion, but I just want to figure out a way and continue to muse on how can we get more people coming out to these shows and being like, there's something really cool here. And I and I just I am gonna believe until I die um passionately that the that what we need to continue to do is just to continue to to condition people to believe that that um there's some amazing talent here. Um and I believe it. And now we gotta convince people that you know you're going to see a great show. Um, you know, you're lucky to be seeing these people before they they they're and you don't know till you come. You don't know you know you don't know, so you're gonna be surprised.

SPEAKER_01

Right. But yeah, as far as the radio station stuff went, man, that was that was great. Like uh um I noticed that he uh like some stuff started popping up on my feed and there was like a local Christian rapper, I think his name is uh J B uh like J-A-E-B-E-E, you know, I don't know. But uh he was posting stuff about being on the radio in Richmond, and I was like, hold on. If he's on the radio in Richmond, I'm I'm sure I could figure out how to be on the radio in Richmond. Who is this person? I did some digging and I found out who the host was. I I sent him a message, just sometimes it's all about us sending cold messages sometimes, you know. It's like it it the worst that can happen, they say no. You're absolutely right. Right. So I sent him a message and I was like, hey man, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I've talked to the bigger radio stations in town. They won't even play songs for my wife, you know, it's weird. Um, because I I I send them like radio ready tracks, they're like, we don't do local stuff. I'm like, okay, but then this guy is a college radio thing and he will. And he was like, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's send me something. I can hear it. So I sent him something. Right. He's like he told me he wanted guests, and I was like, well, if you want guests, then let me open the floodgates, pal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I mean, that's perfect because like I just said, there's tons of talent here, tons of people that have that their their stories are or content and songs, and and and so he's he's just like Pilgrimage here. Uh, hey, let's do some music, and then all of a sudden it's like we're booked for the entire year. Right. And I am super stoked on the lineup. It's not a bad act. Yeah. Um Wow. I mean, would I have guessed that? No. I'm I'm pleasantly surprised. And and and those are if you build it, they will come, right?

SPEAKER_01

You know?

SPEAKER_03

Well, we hope. We hope, but that's what we're working towards. So that's super cool. So you can radio station.

SPEAKER_01

Now obviously my phone is recording, so I don't have access to like see what's up, but I believe it's W E C I and I think it's 91.5 FM. That is the radio station. That you can also listen to online, uh I think through the Erlin College website or something like that. There's a little thing you can click and just listen to on the internet. But uh I just wanted to make sure I'm hoping I hope I'm saying those right letters and that right station. Your Facebook page.

SPEAKER_03

It is, it is on my Facebook page again.

SPEAKER_01

Uh so I do have like a Michael W. Johnson the first, which is just like a capital I uh Facebook page that hel holds this music. I also have a New Metal Messiah Michael Black page for the new metal stuff. Okay. Because I I'm I'm like a whole thing. Like I can I can be corn, I can be panic at the disco. You know, you never know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03

But um panic at the disco is one of my daughter's favorite.

SPEAKER_01

They're very good. Like you wouldn't think I'd like something like that, but they're so production. They're so tight with their production and all that kind of stuff. Like as a musician, you can't hate that. That's it, you know, for sure. Really.

SPEAKER_03

Um so but but the one about the the Richmond in particular, what is it?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that one. Oh, that that's called Richmond, Indiana music scene. Okay. And it's just it's just a Facebook group that you can join.

SPEAKER_03

It's good for Wayne County as well, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's the surrounding area. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

All right. So that's amazing. I love that. That is that is that's so we've got a new Facebook page that that we should all start visiting and checking out. Uh we've got the radio station, we've got some great new music. Um yeah, I would be remiss if I did not even at least ask, because we didn't get into any of your like usually I'll ask like, where'd you come from? What's your past? Oh but um we can always do another one of these at some point.

SPEAKER_01

We will, we will.

SPEAKER_03

We I mean there's uh again, and the beauty of of this podcast, which is breaking rules, like you should thou shall not mix genres. And here it is, winemakers one week. So the niche is like the niche is like what is Scott passionate about? Because I'm doing this thing and I only do it because I love it, and if I it's it's it's it's by no it's it is never hard to talk about this stuff. I love doing it, so um you know that's I guess the common theme. But does it make sense? I don't know. The winemakers probably get alienated by the musicians, musics probably don't want to hear about winemakers, but that's what pilgrimage is all about. So um, dude, uh wrestling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

What I mean and and I'm gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, wrestling don't want to hear about music. Music don't want to hear about wrestlers. So multifaceted talents, baby.

SPEAKER_03

Um so we're this, you know, we're about 30 podcasts in now. Okay in in half a year or whatever. It's been over a year. I got cold called about six months ago by um Rowdy's Podcast. They're based out of Arlington, Texas. It's a podcast. There's the one that I was I was number 250 or something like that. This guy does podcast on all things beer, wine, spirits, and then the third thing was old school Mexican wrestlers. Nice. It's called the Rowdy's Podcast. And then I went and he had like Jesse James on there. He had some pretty, like, big, big yeah, and I'm like, I'm like, how did you hear about me? And he's like, Oh, I just your Facebook stuff came up. I thought it'd be cool to reach out and find out what's going on in the Eastern. So I went on the podcast and um and I had a blast. It was so much fun just telling the pilgrimage story. And so I listened to it and I was like, Oh, that was I didn't make too much of an ass out of myself. That was kind of fun. And then um a few a few weeks later we were doing uh some content. Sarah Fields, who's our social media guru, um, also gonna help us with the record label when we get that off the thing. So I without going off on too much of a tangent, the record is called Treaty Line Records and the studio's treaty line recording studio, it's a little home studio here. Um got some decent mics and preamps, and we can do some good stuff here. But um we are uh in the process of releasing this record that's gonna have, you know, those artist uh sample more on the way. But we'd also like to work with uh uh artists and a big part of what record labels can do now is um PR. I mean that that's basically about the only thing. Music is cheap. We're doing the vinyl because we want to have something that's cool and and is a nice calling card. But as you are finding out with your tracks, like just putting music out there. The performance is where it's at these days, unless you have a record. People do like the the media or shirts or merch, stuff like that. But but uh Sarah, we hope we'll be able to, if we can find a way to make it just the least bit profitable, hopefully the label will be a way for us to again further.

SPEAKER_01

At least breaking even. Yeah. At least break it even.

SPEAKER_03

And we we do we're this is a passion project. Yeah, yeah, she is not cheap. I mean, anybody that's good at their job um costs money. And she's really good at social media and marketing, and so but she's on board with Trading Line Records as we get it off, working to help um uh get some more PR uh for for record releases, promotional stuff, eventually booking a network of gigs. Again, we've got the home act. There's a lot of really cool things happening. It's gonna take time, but that's happening, anyways. We're in here doing a podcast and I'm interviewing AJ uh before the podcast, but just asking him questions for content, and he looked at me and said, Man, you're pretty good at asking questions. You should do a podcast. And about two weeks or a week later, I woke up two nights in a row um and and I was dreaming about the podcast, and I was like, I gotta do it. I gotta do it. So that's the genesis. So it does come from uh from um uh being on a wrestling podcast that again was a genre-bending uh set of things. I'm like, if he can do it, I can do it. And I'm not trying to make a million dollars. I just want to talk about things on passion. That's how the format has kind of dictated. So um, yeah, I uh that's my connection. Other than that, I didn't grow up watching it, but you are actually a wrestler.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I've been doing it for 22 years at this point.

SPEAKER_03

And you're still walking around.

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you you're broken. You you get trained pretty early on how to protect yourself, especially in like more dangerous situations and how to make sure that you don't destroy your body. Plus, I I didn't really I mean I did have a spat in my teens where I did a lot of drugs and alcohol and stuff like that, but I didn't do it long and I didn't continue to do it. So like a lot of that like I didn't destroy my body on the way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not some big giant muscle man or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03

But I'm I was gonna ask. So like how tall are you?

SPEAKER_01

I'm five nine. Five nine. Five'eight, five nine on a good day, I guess. I don't know. Um but I just, you know, uh I get in there, I tell a story, I don't fall down a whole lot uh anymore. I used to I used to do back springboards and stuff. Not necessarily.

SPEAKER_03

Ever taking cycloroids or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no, no, no. I thought that was a requisite to get in. I mean in the 80s, yeah. In the 80s, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03

The ring with a bunch of guys that are doing that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's it's all it's it's really storytelling at the end of the day, you know. It's almost like a singer-songwriter thing. There's always a story behind everything. If you create a good story and you go in there and you tell it, people will pay attention, you know? And so if I'm wrestling some big, strong Superman or whatever, there's a story to tell there. If I'm wrestling somebody of my own size, am I a good guy? Am I a bad guy? What's the story behind that? If I'm wrestling somebody smaller, it's yeah, yeah. But it all it all does hurt. Like people say, oh, wrestling's fake, wrestling's fake. Like it's it's performance art. You know, at the end of the day, it's performance art, you know. And all of it does hurt. We're like we're live action stuntmen, and uh, you know, we are falling, we are getting hit, the the folding chairs are real, the blood is real. Um all that stuff is real. It's just, you know, we know who's gonna win, we know where the storyline is, we're trying to entertain you, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I I I I it's it's it's crazy to me, man. And and in in in many different ways. Like I uh yeah, I again I'm I'm older than you, so I like I'm having a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01

Probably not by probably not as much as you think.

SPEAKER_03

But I mean, geez, like you know, I oh gosh. I'm yeah, always paranoid that I'm gonna, you know, twist my ACL or something like that, and you're you're in there like flinging each other on. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01

Um I've never actually had a serious I've had some concussions. I've never broken a bone or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03

I I've broken my arm, my elbow, I've broken my clavicle, I've had stitches, I mean, just from soccer injuries or something. But uh so that is a crazy uh but I think very cool and unique aspect of of your background.

SPEAKER_01

Um it is all about feeding the inner child. And I said this on the radio, like um it's uh following the dreams of your inner child should be what you do in your adulthood. You know, uh like I you obviously can't be Batman, but you can be an actor, musician, you know, pro wrestler, as long as you uh you know, feed that, you can do that.

SPEAKER_03

That's great, man. I uh I love that. Um I mean, because you're also into the visual arts, you do other things. I know. I mean, are you a fabricator? I mean, and you I know you have this totally crazy uh microphone stand and stuff.

SPEAKER_01

I mean uh I had that I had that 3D printed for me. It's actually a replica of the mic stand that Corinne uses.

SPEAKER_03

Um but you also do like video, like you're you're just a creative creative person. What what other tricks do you have up your sleeves?

SPEAKER_01

Uh well I I I really like to dabble in like modding things like game systems and stuff. I I I build arcades that you know have like a bunch of games on it and stuff. I build like there's a whole bunch of like little electronical stuff I like to do. Yeah. Um but I mean you're so you're just a creative person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah and doesn't it make you kind of wonder like life is short, like why, why, why because I love I I kind of am eclectic and really into what I'm into and then like really boring to talk to if you want to talk about football or something like that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

I don't I don't follow sports at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean I foll follow some things, but uh but you know, I I mean to the average person, it's like I couldn't tell you the first thing about, you know, you know the cults or something like that. Not that I I I it's just there's I I'm really into what I'm really into, and and if you're really into it, like we're gonna get along really good, you know. And I just I'm like I've I you you make the assumption that everybody's kind of into their own thing, and then you're you're like, no, a lot of people just sit around and watch TV. It's like what a waste. What a waste.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um but anyways, um well that's cool, man. Um uh already an hour to you about you really get into who you are or why why you are uh the way you are, but we just talked straight straight on an hour about music and and the scene.

SPEAKER_01

It's fun, man. I I'd like to do seven of these.

SPEAKER_03

Like again, um this is just the beginning of the Part one. Yeah, part one. And uh we're gonna again have you out. Hopefully multi for for sure we'll have you out. Like I said, um, and I've said this many times, um our venue uh expressly exists to support that the the those artists that are hopefully releasing music, um doing their own thing. And it's really easy for us to oh, you got you got maybe even a new EP. I've got five songs that I want to try out in front of. Um this is the place for you to come. We will put you on the front end of a of a headliner that we already have booked, um to give you a place to try it out. Not with backing tracks. And I didn't know. That is maybe when we have the amphitheater, but uh, but no, more of the stripped down sound. Right. I mean, you sound fantastic just with an uh with a with an acoustic guitar in your voice.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, right now I have the album I'm working on, right? The the stuff from the early days, the the early era stuff, and I have uh two other EPs uh on that I'll be working on, and I've got like two or three singles that I'm working on. So I'm trying to daisy chain all of it to where there's usually there's some sort of a mildly constant stream of new content.

SPEAKER_03

That seems to be the prevailing wisdom on how you you know, albums in some ways are dead. I I like them because I always think of music in terms of projects. I'm sure you do too. But but um but yeah, no, it's the model of releasing um keeping content fresh is is I mean, that's what I guess the so-called expert if we even have you know some way to do it.

SPEAKER_01

But I think there's really no actual, absolute science behind it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03

Not anymore. Not anymore. You do it do it.

SPEAKER_01

It's uh it's a lot of luck, you know, honestly. Uh for people who get a decent following. One one person who had a decent following liked you and then shared them with them, and then they shared them with them, and they shared them with them.

SPEAKER_03

That's how it's well I do believe in some ways you make your own luck, but the odds uh even if it's one in a thousand that you might find moderate regional success, um, which seems to be the number that gets thrown around, it's still um the odds are not not in your favor. And it and again, it doesn't have anything to do with how good or bad you are because frequently the it's not the best music that that's not the system that we're in. It's it's there's other factors work. So I totally agree. Um but again, I've found solace in the fact that we do it uh for other reasons. We do it because uh it brings us peace. Yeah. And then we're trying to connect with somebody on an emotional level in a world that frequently is devoid of of of human interaction. And that AI conversation is is for another day.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, dude, I do not use AI.

SPEAKER_03

We will we will wrap it up. Um again, Michael, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it. Yeah, it was a great conversation, as they always are, um, talking about things we're both really passionate about. Thank you for that that um Facebook page. I will definitely start amping that. We'll we'll you know that's that that's one of those things that we needed. So great on you for doing that. Uh love the music. Can't wait to have you out here, and thanks again for being here, man. All right. Keep doing what you're doing, man. Thank you. Everybody have a great day. We're out. All right, all right, all right. Thank you, Mr. Michael W. Johnson the first. I appreciate the interview. Keep up the good work, keep supporting the scene, keep making great music, and uh look forward to seeing you out on August 8th for the 3D Line Records final release party. It's gonna be an awesome day, and uh thank you, Michael, for your support. Cheers.