Ride The Wave | Caleb Foster | Barrels and Roots

I sat down with Caleb Foster, a career winemaker who’s spent decades in the craft, and what I thought would be a conversation about wine turned into something much deeper. 

We got into what it actually means to create something over time, how you don’t control the outcome but you do control how you respond to it, and why great work always lives at the intersection of science and creativity. One of the things that really stuck with me is this idea that wine is like surfing, you don’t make the wave, you choose how you ride it. And the same is true in life, in business, in anything worth doing. This was one of those conversations that reminds you to slow down, pay attention, and respect the process, because the best things aren’t rushed, they’re built.

Where in your life are you trying to force the outcome instead of learning how to ride what’s in front of you?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm sorry, like I'm I'm looking in my mind what is that greatness experience. Um it's not just how like it's hitting me as a food, how delicious it is, and how much is going on flavor-wise. And it's as a winemaker, I clearly know when I taste something little spectacularly interesting and delicious and filled with a variety of flavors and seemingly something personal. I'm fully aware of the enormous effort of those people at that line to do everything they've done to pull that out. It is so much more to close a great wine, a bit of a bottle, and then do the other half, which is to get it around the world and sell it and get it to someone who cares. Yeah, hi Sean. I'm Keely Foster. I'm up here in Yakima Valley, Washington State. And I've been a career producer in wine in Washington. Uh mate wine, uh, worked overseas in New Zealand and South Africa. My company I consult was Walton Wine in Washington.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

That's awesome. Like, how how why did um when did wine stop being just something that you loved and become the job that you wanted to like go down in the path that you wanted to live?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, at a moment, I um did my very first punchdowns over a tiny little bin of wine in 1991. Um and uh I came in Saturdays and it was just a little thing I was helping on sales, and there's a little tank to mix, and so I did that. Um and uh and the first week it was grapes, the second week it was turning into wine, and the third week it was pretty much finished wine, and the fourth week was gone. And I was like, well, where'd it go? And I'll never see the barrel. And I said, Oh my god, that was cool. Can we do that again?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

That's awesome. It kind of was like you got you hooked, and um sometimes that's all it takes to get something there that you really love, you know. Uh you know, and wine has it is synonymous with certain regions. And and talk to me about wine in the in the Washington area, in the Yakima Valley. What is it white like to grow wine where you're growing wine right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, I probably the the thing that made it most clear um what it was like to grow Washington wine was to go away and come back, first from New Zealand, then from South Africa. And then on the way back from South Africa, I remember writing in my winery newsletter that's mommy's, you got it. We are in a Eden here. And we don't have any, we barely have any bugs, and barely any molds. We've got clean, easy ground, we've got great weather. Uh, it's like you know, 300 days of sunshine, we've got irrigation. This is so easy. We've got it so easy. In fact, we should be making great wine. It's not like we are and we're lucky. No. We are out of struggles, most of the world does. So what's it like? Um, yeah, it's surprisingly easy. Um, and I've been trying to point that out on my YouTube channel, and um, yeah, it's it's um and it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure because I have actually made wines in South Africa, made them in News and Warren's with great producers, making very good ones. Um, and um it could be a struggle to get through a modestly good vintage to achieve what you're seeking in those in those regions. And for us, to be able to cakewalk. A little deceit when we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Well, you know, after three decades uh uh making wine in Washington, what still excites you when a new vintage begins? What's the thing that like you sit there and go, you know what, this is gonna be an awesome year?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, it's always it's always a personal thing. So I mean the the the personal experience of going into the world, the natural world, knowing uh uh, you know, the only equivalency is it's kind of like surfing. I I don't get to I don't get to make the wave, but I get to pick the waves and ride the lid. Or wave is going to be what it's gonna be. Vintage will become what it's gonna become. I can't control the weather, but I get to decide how to ride that that scene. So there are so many things we can do to craft it. And we're gonna do that from the pluning all the way out, and then when partles is done, I know for sure precisely how good the lines are. And then it's my job to apply the recipe appropriately. So every time it's both the wonderful mystery of not not really knowing what's coming in the leather, and then having to anticipate a season before, or definitely weeks before bud break, how to make it properly. Don't know how dry the summer will be, so we merely will have enough water. Might. Um and so when we succeeded and we come to harvest, even though I've got a recipe, I've got to actually execute it. And I've got to be sensitive with the vintage. And you know, making you know what I consider to be vintage meat wines. So I've got to apply a meaningful recipe that fits and be sensitive to exact sort of cut moments. Every time it's a creative event, even though the creativity can only come after you've work a science, right? It's in a part of the series model. Why good science give it to then really unleash your creativity?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

See, that's that's beauty, you know. It's like people don't realize that you you have to in life, in different skills, like once you get the basics down, you're able to learn to dance. But to like to start learning to dance, you have to know basic footwork. You know, you gotta be able to move here, move there. And if you don't have that, then the dancing doesn't happen. The the art doesn't happen. But like it is this this balance between the two. But you know, it's interesting because you've worked with so many regions and styles. Um, what is it about the vintages that you're making now or the wines that you're making now that keep pulling you back?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

I'm more and more interested in the microclimates, the expression of a certain part of Yakin Valley, or a certain uh oil series and the hillsides of the Papua Yakna Val. Um, where it expresses a different wine than the same grapes I had planted 100 miles away on the Lux Lou. Um they are different. And now I've, for instance, one wine, uh, Semillon Sil Blanc Muscadello blend that I made really successfully. Um uh and just help heaps of awards. Um interrupt everybody, but this wine um I made um out of vineyard, out of grapes in Plummy Valley, a tactular wine up and speak works. I loved it. I loved the wine. I actually think I'm gonna be making a better wine, I feel very sure. I'm gonna make a better version of this blend in the Ellsberg series in the upper Yakima Valley, cooler on the different soil type, it's an ancient riverbed, a lot more like Bordeaux. Um, so the way I'm I'm applying everything I've learned, and then, well, now that I I know all this much, how can I look further? And to me, it's like this lovely exact scrapes that I'm like for my stuff. And that's that's one big step forward. And now I'm gonna try to expand that white wine style, this address at Boswell State, um, and and down back ridge up near the old on uh old vineyards that were planted in the early 80s that made some super classic ones.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Um so that's awesome, you know. But that leads me because it's like I'm so fascinated by um by the where things are grown. Because you get one, I mean you take two plants and you put them in different soil, and you're gonna get two dramatically different, you know, things coming up and taste and flavors, you know. And it it's like I I live in Vietnam part-time and live in California part-time. And one of the things is I could take tomato seeds and plant them at both places in different both soils. They will taste dramatically different because of the sun, the temperature, the the all of that, you know. They're both going to be delicious, but you know, it it there's such a difference in locale, you know, and in the place we're growing things. And it's powerful like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

It's the great thing we're chasing in NY, both as consumers and as producers. Um, you know, when you're really in a wine, you're chasing the this this beautiful, subtle differentiation. But another note for people who are really into gardening or food or like, you know, you grow your own food, you all the heirloom tomatoes, right? Or or specialty uh seeds, right? Great, seed. So Cabernet Signal is a cabernet. Cabernet Signal is always a cutting, so it's always a clone, it's always a selection from a field, which means that it's the same genetic material as it goes around the world. And in fact, if you look at um John Um, well, I always forget his last name, pretty breakbook out of California, um Concanan, John Concanan wrote this fantastic book, the story of how his grandfather or great-grandfather bought a cabernet into California. Long story short, here's the here's the secret. All American Cabernet, except for maybe one or two clones that have been fabricated by uh. All American Cabernet is the plant material that came from Latour or Margot, and another truth that were two vineyards his father got that year on the cuttings from France. That means all cabernet Monraq is the same genetic stuff. Yes, therefore, literally it's the same plant, and therefore, all of those flavors are coming from environmental factors and human recipes. That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

That's wild. It's really wild. Because it's like really wild.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

It's really wild because you know it's a little deeper, that's a little deeper into that story, and that was oh winemakers are listening and being like, no, there's quantum 2468, blah, blah, blah. Read the book. UC Davis in 1968 or 92 or whatever the year was when they needed to get a USDA staff of proof plant material and secure all the things, all the things properly, and they were the home of this. They went to Com Canon and Vineyard took all of them. One vine, one vine. Read the book. They took those cuttings back to the to their property, back to UC Davis, they grew them out and they did three different heat treatment temperatures, just temperature treatments on these plant of the exact same vines plant material. Those three heat treatments are clone two, seven, and eight. So, ladies and gentlemen, like clone eight, cavernosylvania is the vast majority of American county, up to like 90%. If you've got clone two and seven, you literally had the exact same genetic material. The only difference is there was a slightly different heat treatment in the lab, but it's the same plan. So and and and that's probably generally true of seven bronchements too. So you know, penal clones decided that's a little bit about me, but it's it. Yeah, so so therefore, wine is really fascinating that's express itself on a side in such an amazing way.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

It's wild. Is is there a particular vineyard variety or like moment in the cellar that still gives you that quiet? This is this is why I do this feeling.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, there are a lot of those, to be honest. It's this is there's a lot of those. There's those in the vineyard. Um one turn in or talking about how to redo the vineyard in the winter and dreaming up the next great one. There's that harvest, that harvest model. Like, there it is. Wow, we did everything. We we did everything right. Look at this amazing fruit we're about to pick. I'm super delighted. You know, that's always a great model. Um and uh there's so many every day. They can be every day at harvest, uh, in the middle of in the middle of fermentation, it can just be so incredible. Um there's one that's really fun that we've made, we've turned into a wine, which is the moment that I always love. And there's a video in there called um Um The Nectar of the Gods. And in the middle of fermentation, not anything we do, particularly red wines, in the middle of fermentation, when cabernet is half fermenting, it's warm in the tank, it's 85 degrees, and it's like 12 bricks and 8% alcohol. It just is like the greatest drink in the world. Every year I love it. And every every of those days I taste it and like, yeah, this is such a great drink. And then I know I've got to wave a goodbye. It's like a runner running right past it. I'm like, God, you're beautiful. And then I just got to wave a goodbye because it will mock me sweet and warm again, and it'll be a dry wine. But we decided that we love this stuff so much, we're gonna make it. So we decided to Baragon twins, we're doing this, and and we make a wine that is basically a drop-dead, gorgeous tank set with Baragan vinos, and we make it white, red, and rose. Uh, and these guys are masters of this. They've been doing this for years. That's awesome. And this is so exciting because this wine takes me back to that moment harvest. I love so much, it disappears. It it's it's fleeting, it's there for a few days, and I can't wait for it every year. And now I'm practically bottled around. It's incredible. That's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, uh, how do you personally define a great wine? You know, not by scores, but how it makes you feel when you drink it. What what do you makes a great wine?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

I'm sorry, like I'm I'm looking in my mind, what is that greatness experience? Um, it's not just how like it's hitting me as a food, how delicious it is, and how much is going on flavor-wise. And it's as a winemaker, I clearly know when I taste something little spectacularly interesting and delicious and filled with a variety of flavors, and seemingly something personal. I'm fully aware of the enormous effort of those people at that line to do everything they've done to pull that out. It is so much more to pull off a great wine, a put it in a bottle, and then do the other half, which is to get it around the world and sell it and get it to someone who cares.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Right? We we we forget about that part. The we're so used to all of this, this, the, the, the entire interconnectivity of our of our supply chain around the world. That like, you know, in our distribution chains, that you know, oh, of course I can eat a pineapple year-round in California. Really? You know, you know, do you know what goes into getting that to you? And like to think about wine, wine's not light, it's heavy. It is a very heavy object in a bottle. And to to to ship it and get it places is is just amazing. You know, I I had a wonderful glass of uh of Anapa Valley cab the other day here in Southeast Asia, and I was just like, there you go. Like, how how did that get here? You know, and I'm I'm I'm looking forward to finding some Washington wines, but I just am not seeing them yet. But you know what? It's it's time.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, it I just finished a phone call, you know, where I took all these notes of phone call about how to deal with the new distribution in California. And I just God blessed it, everyone has to figure this stuff out because to get my wine just as a gig inside America is like boom, low the the the psychological, the people working, the financial effort it takes, um is it all has to be done after I've made the wines.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah. What what do you think wine can teach people about patience, time or just paying attention to the details?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Well, that's the fun thing is um, I mean for me, when I experience wine, and I hope people can read it. For me, when I have a lot of wine, it just I'm right back to that close and tone of those memories. Like if I had the 2004, which I had with friends last night, um, not last night, but last week, um we're just sitting there talking about like, okay, what was I doing in 2004? Why was I doing that in 2004? Oh, I had yet to learn this lesson, but I learned these lessons, and that's why I made it that way. And but it was a warm vintage, all just all letters for black. Oh, that for anyone who hasn't made wine, that you just think about the quality of what were you doing in that day? What were you doing with the fall of that year? And then just remember, just think about a gap between the fall of that year now and what are how it unfolded, realize that that is the journey that we're sharing across the wine when we're doing wine. Um and then if you can never experience and remember, really working wine now, and then go back to it 10 years later and realize that one of the things that I winemakers try to do, and I know, for instance, French winemakers talk this way without maybe using this analogy, but one of the things a winemaker is trying to do how they make a really beautiful age-worthy wine is to throw that winning Super Bowl touchdown, they're gonna back up, they're gonna, and they're gonna wait for that receiver to get all the way in the end zone, and then they're gonna throw it. And so I'm waiting to throw you on a great wine in 20 years. I've got to that into winemaking and then throw this bottle out of the world, and and you're gonna have it 20 years later. So if you ever do that, you have an old bottle of wine, realize all of the efforts taking that winemaker to plan for that.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

It's wild. You know, it's not not not many other things do we have that level of time planned into the production. You know, a musician doesn't sit there and make a song and sit there and say, All right, people in 20 years are going to be sitting down and going, Yeah, that was that was the song, you know. I mean, it does happen occasionally that it had that song that was on Stranger Things. Yeah, but the artist didn't sit down in 1972 and write this thinking about today. Right, right. And it's wild like that. But you know, well, I wanted to ask the you this when someone tastes one of your wines for the first time, what what do you hope they walk away feeling or understanding?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

I just I I've been in the tasting room, I've seen a lot of people do it the first time. I heard what makes me happy is when they feel like, wow, that's surprisingly good. Like almost confused. Um, and that they're like, those are delicious. I just did that's the tasting note. Like, that's my favorite tasting note. Wow, y'all. Like, just those are my favorite. I don't need any well, look on people's faces now. I actually don't almost don't listen. I'm like, I don't care what you're gonna say. I'm gonna look at your face, but your immediate facial reaction, that's what I want. And I just you know, that smile. That smile is like, whoa, what was that? Looked great. That's that's I'm like, great. We've started with trip.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Right. Well, you know, which the starting the trip is a great way to look at it because you know, as a winemaker, how has your relationship with wine changed over the years compared to when you first started making it? Is it different now?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

I mean, I didn't study wine. I was an English major, rock climbing, fishing aisle. There's bears be guy, mountain biker. I mean, I did not. I knew zip zoch got line when I started. So for me, what the reason why I wanted to work at a winery was because it was working to nature. I did not want to do any more paperwork at work. I was like, homeschool, I'm done with no desk jobs for me. Um and so I was either gonna work for a rafting company or go work on a farm. And I worked on a farm and I made more money, so I made me get a job. And so I went out to uh because I sucked at working at restaurants. Um so um I went out to wineries. I was like, hey, job, and there was, look at me. And so I started working there and so I was attracted to it because it was a physical food. I was left food, and then mystery uh it began. I became an absolute cementer that I was going to and watching change in two weeks. And then all the questions that I'd love to like what was that? And it just led to a million questions. And every time I saw it again, I'm like, why did that happen? And where's okay? That's really what chasing that option. So it started with questions, and it it feels like that endless, almost like an endless rabbit horn. And I'm like, I've got radicals in all directions, and people are still trying to chase that.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

That's wow. You know, it it's interesting because there are so many varietals and styles, but our Are there any varietals or styles that you're really passionate about right now? And why?

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, that Bordo White blend, I'm really, really passionate about that. Samsung Mosquidel Dry White one. Well, it's it's um then there's another. Um, because that blend, I don't really think I made it really well. And we opened the 2004, particularly. Um, and my friend and I, who she's a she's a wine writer on um China Morningstar at Seattle, and we're both like we're so silently stunned at how insanely fresh that wine was. And she's like, this is shocking to me, how fresh this is. She said, I remember this one was me, but I haven't had it since I this is shockingly fresh. And I looked at her and said, I gotta be honest, I'm a little amazed myself. Um it's staggering for us. And so why? Why can I make a white wine with someone who's tormented ears with that code? Well, what the hell is going on? Like I know my recipe, I've mastered my recipe even more since then. So, how can I apply my recipe to this new or we act and value in awesome, which I think is even the better place to go? So, why don't I really do this for? But we've got an even better spot. How can I apply my recipe? My awareness of all the different stages of breakground, all the different subtleties of turning breaks into juice, juice into wine, all that, and apply it to this location even better. Um, that's one of the serious, and then make it make it be so that all so more fresh and freshening is like, oh, that's good, right? You have smile and you taste stuff, then the journey begins. We can enjoy it on the very expensive, yes. Wasn't that amazing? Five years ago, it's like fresh, you know, it's all still good, and and then making that was genuine that so how that's really fun to think about. Okay, recipe craft, drain all the science, I can't do it, and all the artistic can't do it, it's okay, and then the other grape. So there's a red grape, and it is not a grape, you might expect them to say, and it's saporavi. Oh boy, was this my new favorite? Um saporabi, as anyone can can search out, it goes back to today to Georgia, but it probably goes back to Egypt and the Tiger Sephrides Valley and the earliest uh Sumerian and Plus Sumerian, it's at least 8,000 years old in Georgia alone. It's an older Venus gray than that. So when Xerxes was conquering Persia, he was celebrating with Sapolabika. Like it's really old.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

That's wild. Yeah. So that's wild. That's something that's wild to me is that it goes back so far. Like it, and you can go back so really far with with this this this tradition. You know, you think about there are a few traditions that you can trace back maybe a hundred years, but like to think about, you know, going back thousands, wine goes back thousands of years, it's absolutely wild. You know, it that can be intimidating for people. And and for someone who feels intimidated by wine, what's the least scary way to start exploring it?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

It's just the same way you pick any other food. It's like going out to the backyard and eating an apple. We are born with an appreciation for what is yummy. We know, as a child of five, mom and dad do not have to teach us which is the best fruit to eat. We pick the fruit and turn around to them and say, Isn't this yummy? We know the body guns. We know it's good. So don't let him ever tell you that what you're tasting. You should like more or shouldn't like. You know. But just taste the wine and decide. And then on the other hand, like to understand why the recipe, don't ever let anybody intimidate you. It is no different than making a cheeseburger. You pick the meat, think about the flavors you want to add, and you're gonna cook the meat. It's really, it's it's so simple. It's so simple. Make wine. And I remember 8,000 years ago, we were making wine continuously, vintage after vintage, keeping the vines alive because we love this stuff, and nobody knew nothing about germ theory, bacteria, anything, and they had no electricity. So, I mean, come on, folks, we we chillings know and love wine, and don't really anyone ever tell you that those wines won't go back then that they yeah, um they were it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

And let me ask you this if you were to tell someone who's just getting into wine, go out, try this. You know, you're you're starting out your journey, try these three glasses of wine. What what three glasses would you tell someone to go try?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah, that's a great very long bit why I'd say try Washington State Marlowe for 20 bucks. Zero 20 bucks, you can get all this wine ball. Try Washington State Marlon, um try a Spanish Rioja and try New Zealand Swan Bloc. You're gonna get three parts of the world, and we're gonna get three major distant flavor differences. You're gonna get inner desert, um, Rioja and Washington, you're gonna get oceanic white.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

If you could go back and again give yourself some winemaking advice, your younger self, what what advice would you give yourself?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Drive man, have a ball. Like, I didn't I don't feel I did anything wrong. I'm like, well, this was a fucking awesome trip. I just like let's rewind, I'll do it all over here. Yeah, I don't have anything, so I just got really lucky.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, well, you know, sometimes that's the journey though, right? It's the the um it's the balancing of uh it's like ride surfing, like you said. You know, the journey is about you can't pick the waves, but you can choose how you're gonna ride them.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Yeah, yeah. And you got to ride some rideable waves.