Made Not Born | David Natali | Barrels and Roots

I sat down with David Natali, and what stood out most is that great winemakers aren’t born, they’re built through experience, instinct, and time in the cellar. 

From starting with no traditional path to becoming a Napa Valley winemaker, he shared how the craft is less about textbooks and more about doing the work, learning from mistakes, and trusting your palate. It made me realize how much mastery in any field comes from showing up and putting in the reps. 

If success isn’t about talent alone, what skill are you building right now through repetition?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I I think there is an aspect of leadership for sure, but a lot of it is I really believe in you know having good people around me and and letting them go. And uh we taste as a team, uh decisions are made as a team. Ultimately, yes, the the blame or the the uh uh acclaim you know falls on me. Um but we always make those decisions, you know, as a as a team, because I think recognizing in yourself that there are there are always blind spots. There always are blind spots, and everyone I work with and have around me has a strength that I wish I can learn from, that they can learn from me, that it's a two-way street. Um so there's an aspect of leadership in the sense of kind of standing back and kind of letting people in the you know sandbox get along uh with one another and work towards the the ultimate goal, but not in the sense of being really in the weeds with uh the day-to-day. We have a way of working here at Biale that um I think is is important, that is uh you know in intrinsic to our wine quality and in our style. And once people kind of get that, it's like, okay, this is now your cellar, um, run with it. And yeah, I'll be out in the field telling, you know, calling picks or whatever it is, and be right here back at the cellar with you guys. But if there's multiple ways to skin a cat in this industry, so as long as we're hitting the the high points of of how we make wine here, then uh the the world's uh you know your oyster if you're working here.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Welcome everybody back to the Barrels and Roots Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Trace, and I have an awesome guest with me today. Uh, would you like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yeah, my name is David Natali. I'm the winemaker for Robert Biale Vineyards in Napa, California in the Okdoll district. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Um, how how long have you been like, how did you get into making wine? I guess that's the best question. How did you start down this path?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

It's it's an odd path for me, as it usually is. It's kind of the love of the actual product, I think comes first before you realize, hey, this could be a career. But for me, um, I uh tried out winemaking. I had a friend in college studying something completely foreign to winemaking, and uh they had a small winery, a small family run winery in uh Sonoma. And after college, instead of uh choosing the law school path, I had been kind of shooting for, I decided to uh try it out and help them out for a month or two. And um, you know, people have their aha moments with wine, their aha bottles. And for me, it was uh racking a tank. So it was very production-oriented. We were in a bottling run, and um, I had you know a hose in a tank and cleaning uh the wine getting the clean wine out of the tank. And at the end of the day, there was a bottle of wine from the efforts, and that kind of hooked me. It was like, oh well, I I had a little part of that. Um, and so I wanted to get more parts of of myself into that process.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

That's awesome. It's awesome because you know, everyone has this place that they start, and we all have to start somewhere, like in life, you know, you never know what that's gonna be. You know, what is the thing that's gonna start you out down a path? Um, I remember how I got started in martial arts. Like it was I dude, I remember when I was a little kid, uh, my mom and dad, first of all, I saw karate kit, and that was the thing that got me hooked. Machio, Mr. Miyagi, Mr. Miyagi was like the greatest thing since Luke Skywalker. It was or or or you know, uh Yoda and Obi-Wan. It was just all of this coolness. And I remember my parents got me my first karate geek, but actually it wasn't even a karate gate, it was like a set of pajamas. And I my mom said she couldn't get off that thing off of me for a week, like a whole week. And I was just like, this is the greatest thing ever. And why why I'm bringing that up is because passion is passion, and when people find that thing that ticks for them, you know, it's it's so often it's all or nothing. It's like it is the path, it is the logical path, and you know it's what you're supposed to be doing. And so it's so beautiful that that was something that you found. But you know, was there a first glass that, you know, kind of, you know, you had that wine, and you're like, this, this right here, this is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

There wasn't a first glass for me. I I kind of grew up with wine as a cultural aspect of meals and stuff. My father's from Italy. Um, I would go back there and see family. Um, no real glasses. I had an uncle in uh in general, Italy, who we'd go visit frequently, and he would uh he was a mechanic, he was an outboard motor uh mechanic for boats, and um he would barter with some guys up in the hills um above the the coastline uh who were growing Barbera Dolcetto of something cheap. Um, and he would come down with a a demijon, a big five-gallon you know, uh glass container that we'd have to bottle up for him. Uh and so the process was kind of already there, kind of instilled to me. The wine was nothing to speak of from what I recall, because they would give me sips of it even as a young kid. Um, I remember exploding bottles of Moscato that would happen in the house because they were not you know professionally made. Um, but otherwise, it was nothing. Um, I wouldn't say there was an aha wine. I always enjoyed it. I always uh thought that there was something there. And I had the kind of innate interest in in arts and in culinary and history, especially. And wine, once I discovered that kind of path that was an option career-wise, it kind of ticked a lot of those boxes. Um, you've got really the expression of in your expression of generations of people in in that glass in front of you who have kind of made this happen and for you to enjoy. And um that that was appealing. That kind of was enough to hook me. And knowing that I could, you know, have a small, small fragment of myself in in that process was was intoxicate. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Well, and it leads me to a question because you know, you've you've done so much already. Like, you worked so many different roles. You worked your way up from like cellar hand to winemaker. Like, what did those early years teach you uh that people on the outside would never see? Like, what what was the there the happening at that time that you think still sticks with you?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

I think uh that was one of the most important things in my journey. I didn't start out coming out of a ventin analogy program out of university. I kind of started from the ground up. And that gives you a really intimate knowledge of um what's being asked of people. There's a team of people behind you in any winemaking role, in any vineyard manager role. And there's a team of people behind you and really realizing what is being asked of them and um what they're comfortable doing and how to explain that to them and what the the effect is on the wine, and that they may not get that. But um, where I was at, uh, I was able to learn from a lot of really good people and be, you know, uh have have kind of training on the ground. But it gave me an understanding of okay, they're telling me to do this, it's for this reason. And that kind of I think echoes in the way I I carry myself forward. You have to bring people into the team. You know, it's a team sport, every harvest we have to get through it, and um it's hard, it's it's um a lot of hours, and we just have to um really make sure we're all kind of speaking the same language and and get into the same place.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I love that. It is a team sport. One of the things that I I think that enough people, not enough people experience is some type of team sport, you know, some type of project that you're working on toward a goal because there's something to be said for it's great when you can go out and make something by yourself. But I think wine is one of the things that that's not that easy, you know. To like, there are so many people involved at so many different steps of the wine-making journey. Like to sit there and go, I'm gonna wake up and make a wine by myself. You're like, really? Like, you know, really, like that's not really that that that feasible, you know? But like it is something that you have to be part of a team. And I'm reading this great book on leadership right now, and it says every problem that we encounter in life is some type of a leadership problem, even if it's a problem in our own lives. How did you start to learn, you know, as the winemaker, were you leading it all the all the time, or are you being just a part of the whole overall journey, you know?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I I think uh there is a aspect of leadership for sure, but a lot of it is I really believe in you know having good people around me and and letting them go. And uh we taste as a team, uh decisions are made as a team. Ultimately, yes, the the blame or the the uh uh acclaim you know falls on me. Um, but we always make those decisions, you know, as a as a team, because I think recognizing in yourself that there are always blind spots. There always are blind spots, and everyone I work with and have around me has a strength that I wish that they're I can learn from, that they can learn from me, that it's a two-way street. Um so there's an aspect of leadership in the sense of kind of standing back and kind of letting people in the you know sandbox get along uh with one another and work towards the the ultimate goal, but not in the sense of being really in the weeds with uh the day-to-day. We have a way of working here at Bialy that um I think is is important, that is uh you know in intrinsic to our wine quality and our style. And once people kind of get that, it's like, okay, this is now your cellar, um, run with it. And yeah, I'll be out in the field telling you know, calling pics or whatever it is, and be right here back at the cellar with you guys. But if there's multiple ways to skin a cat in this industry, so as long as we're hitting the the the high points of of how we make wine here, then uh the the world's uh you know your oyster if you're working here. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

I've I've been building my business and it's a video editing company, video production company, and I got to the point recently where my team knows what to do, like they're really good at what they do. And the other day, uh one of them just looked up at me and she said, Mr. Sean, I know what I'm doing. Trust me. And I had to sit there and go, You're right, you're right. There's a certain point where you have to trust the process and trust the team and trust everything that's going on. But, you know, one of the things that I love is I love the process. You know, I love the process of putting together projects, of doing podcasts, of reaching out to people, of putting together the questions and thinking about, you know, the whole process of it, because it's not just the end goal, it's not just about like, I'm gonna post this today. I don't care about it. I care about it, I enjoy it, but I really enjoy the conversation. I enjoy thinking about the questions, you know. But for you, when you come to winemaking, like what part of winemaking do you personally love the most? Is it the harvest chaos? Is it blending? Is it aging? Is it something else? Is it bottling? What is it for you that you really love?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

I I the harvest chaos is definitely a love-hate thing. There's a lot of of love at that process and a lot of um a lot of stress as well. But uh I think there's that's definitely an aspect that I truly love. Um, blending is another one that's really top of mind right now. We're looking at our 2025 vineyards right now and going together with blends. And that's the the part that I think keeps it really interesting year on year for me. Um, because every year is different. Every you get harvest is so stressful, and you you make all these split-second decisions um that are getting you to a final goal, but you never quite know until just about now in the spring when you're you're tasting through that stuff and putting together blends how the vintage kind of presents itself. So that's I think an exciting part for um the the vintage on vintage uh variation and um or or consistency of these vineyards and see how the season really presented itself and what the work you put in accomplished. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

You know, you it it's not until things start emerging that you see where it's going, you know. But I I wanted to ask you this because like as you were getting growing in winemaking, you know, was there a specific moment where you felt like, okay, I'm not just learning anymore, I'm actually belong in this world and I'm doing it now.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

I think once the start uh people start uh mining you for your experience, um, that's that's a uh important milestone. For a long time, you go through you know a a couple vages and um everyone's there, everything's different. Uh 20 in 2009 through 2011 were some of the harder vintages I've ever worked, but I had already I'd only been in the industry for about five, six years at that point. Um and now we get rain during harvest, like those vages, and people are saying, Well, what did you do at that time? And you have to kind of mine the your memories of of what you did in that vintage and say, okay, here's some experience that might might be applicable here. That's where it kind of it's uh kind of a little bit of an unlock in my brain of like, oh, okay, I I've been doing this a while and I'm I'm in it, and people are I'm a resource now for for some folks. Which is rewarding. You can actually put put in some some effort and get a little bit of return.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

I um I was teaching a class at a university on content creation, and uh it was wild because I've been doing this a long time, but I never saw myself as like an expert on stuff. I was like, I've always been feeling like I'm failing forward and figuring stuff out. But there was a certain point in time where I realized, well, damn, I've been doing this almost 15 years now. You know, it's not just failing forward at this point. There is a degree of knowledge, but it wasn't myself that helped me realize that. It was the people that I was helping. It was the people that were going, wow, that's great advice. Wow, what would you do with this? And I'm like, wow, you guys are really leaning in on what I'm saying. They're like, Yeah, because it's there's a wealth of knowledge. And you don't even realize that until you can realize that you have that to share it. It's that's a powerful thing. I like what you're saying there. But like, I want to ask you this because wine is is is a is a great drink, but there's an emotional side of wine, you know. And do you think that wine is more science or more emotion and art? And how do you balance the two of those, you know?

SPEAKER_00 14:18

I think uh someone, uh a former um co-worker of mine, uh former mentor of mine, put it really well. I said, uh, when I was I had gone back to school eventually for winemaking, but when I was still before that, um, just learning as I go, I said, well, you know, you have some pretty hard science uh background. And he said, the longer I'm in this industry, the less I eavesed that. It's more intuition, it's a lot more art, it's a lot more um a lot more thinking on your feet. And um, I'm I'm blessed to work in in the Nap Valley where things are are pretty consistent year on year. And so we don't have these massive swings like in other areas. We have some. Don't don't get me wrong, it's 95 right now, and you know the second week, third week in in March. So it changes by year. But um I think it's a lot of art uh for sure. I think um there's a lot of uh realizing that you can hit those kind of quality guideposts scientifically and and chemically, and then at that point, it's what do you want to say about this vineyard, about this site, and how do you best express that? Um, we make 17 different single vineyards infidel, each one has to have their own voice, and so we had hit that quality and and stability point pretty early on, and then it's a matter of what is this character of this vineyard that I want to express and what is it really giving me, and how do I amplify that? I love that.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Well, it's interesting too, because one of the things that's special I find about um winemakers is that there's this ability to see potential, there's the ability to look at something and go, okay, I this is where I see this going. And you know, it's kind of uh the the the longer people have been doing it, you know, the more I don't know if there's the more art or the the more mastery there is of it, but it's really powerful to see that potential that other people can't see. And I think that's anything. Like I'm a horrible chef, you know, I can't cook for anything. But my wife rolls into a kitchen, she tastes something, and she's like, oh, and then she sprinkles a couple things, and it turns out really good. And I'm like, I couldn't even foresee it tasting that way. But she was able to combine things in a way that just turned out amazing. And so I I think there's something to be said for people that have that ability, but you know, I think it comes from experience and experimentation and passion at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Definitively. I think uh it's the biggest thing is we you walk into a vineyard for the first time and you try to have to to get the lay of the land, both you know, topographically, you know, how healthy are the vines, uh, where's the aspect of the uh of the soil? How's the sun setting here? Um that's the toughest part. But uh I I do like to give myself a little bit of leeway and say, give me about three years, I can usually figure it out. Because you get one shot a year at these places. So uh, you know, three years, uh, you you try one thing one year, you adjust a little bit the next year, and about in year three, you're you're feeling it. But that's after, you know, two decades of experience now. Um and in some cases, walking out to a vineyard, uh, you know, some of the ones that we work with that's a hundred plus years old, you go, well, this is a pretty special site because it's been here this long. So if it's been here this long, then um we have to do right by it and and you know we can make good wine out of it and just not stumble over our um our uh you know our second guesses.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I love that. Do you find that you end up second guessing a lot? Or do you have you gotten to the point where you kind of have a gut vibe and you know the way to go with certain things?

SPEAKER_00 17:55

I think uh it's more gut at this point. Um there's always I I think if you're not thinking critically about your own wines, um, you're probably not doing it right. So every year I am we're the harshest critics of our own wines, winemakers. Um so every year I'll look at a wine, taste something, and and pull it apart. Um, but in the moment it's a lot of gut from those in encounters later with these wines as they're aging and going, okay, could have done this a little bit differently this way, or this could have heightened something here or there, um, or downplayed some negative um that might might be in the line. I I love that, man. But I think a lot of that is just experience and and just uh and being confident ultimate ultimately in this, uh, because it is a one shot a year thing. We just have to get to a point where this is the decision, I'm not gonna lose too much sleep over it. Um I have to make a call right at that time because I don't have the the luxury of two weeks before I have to pick this thing. It's gotta come in now. So uh at a certain point you just have to be confident and kind of run with it. I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Um I have this other question for you, too. Like just a fun one, real quick, though, actually. Like, what is your favorite wine? Like, like Vin like not favorite wine, what's your favorite varietal to make wine from?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

That's a tricky one. Um, I do have a a love of Pinot. Um, I think from my first jobs working with Pinot. Um, and that's kind of where I I found a synergy, I think, and a love of what we do here at Bialy because we make Zinfandel like Pinot. So taking that style of winemaking um and transferring it to what they've already been doing at Bialy before my time and in another variety and expressing a different variety in that same manner, I think is rewarding. Um, that said, for a consumer point of view, I I will always tell people we make luxury products here in the in that in the net valley, and uh still the the biggest high I'll ever get is tasting something that is incredibly inexpensive with high quality, and you go, wow, I had no idea that that you know could be done from that material. That's rewarding. Um for seeing it, I've not worked in that space myself, but uh for a little while I did a little bit of wine buying and you'd get some imports from Europe and you go, they make cognac out of this normally? They should just be making this you know, table wine. This is spectacular, and it's like you know, five euro a bottle or something like that. That's really uh enticing for me in the industry. Um, but for for actual varieties, I'm a bit of an omnivore. Uh I I'll consume anything, try anything, um making it. I'd say Pinot Zen. There's a there's a uh a combo there and uh confluence of styles that can work really well and show both characters of both vineyards, of both varieties.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

I love that. I I I'm a huge fan of Pinot. And uh anytime I hear people talking about Pinot, it makes me happy. But I wanted to ask another fun question too. What's a what's a varietal that you love to hate or that you have a a kind of a uh a back and forth relationship with, you know?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

I have a back and forth relationship with Chardonnay. I I love a well-made Chardonnay. I made uh a whole bunch of it early in my career. Um, but there and the character of Lee's aged, barrel-aged Chardonnay is great in the glass. The actual process, there's a smell to that lees, to that those dead yeast, and and um, you know, uh and that you you're getting this beautiful texture on these wines from when you're cleaning barrels that sticks with you. That uh I I have a love hate thing for for just that reason of having that innate uh olfactory sense come back to me as soon as I I see a barrel of Chardonnay. But um well made Chardonnay is a is a lovely thing too.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I love that. Yeah, it is. It is. I I I'm I'm a big fan of when I think you get a really Really good shard. I'm a big fan of pretty much any type of wine that's well done, but you know, Chardonnay sits with me well. Um, a question here for you. Um, what's a vintage or situation that didn't go the way you wanted? Uh but what it taught you something, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

I think uh 2010, I think um there were some uh instances where there was some rain and some really cool vintage. Um I think uh I wasn't in the uh head position in terms of calling uh calling decisions, but there were some extraction methods there of really dialing it back on some of these wines because the the character seems a little green. Um though I think in hindsight, um tasting 2010s now and in some aging, I go, okay, this there was actually some really nice qualities there that we didn't have to go quite so light with. Um and we you do what you have to do at the time. There's a big rainstorm coming, um, it's a cool year, you you have to pick. Um, but looking back on how we extracted those wines, I go, okay, maybe there's more to it if there's actually a nice buildup in the season, a nice, you know, um relatively cool season. Maybe there's no way to extract from these wines in a delicate manner that can give some longevity to them as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I love that. Well, I wanted to ask you this one too, because um, you know, I have you, you know, I some people will start with loving a certain type of wine, but their taste evolves. Like, how has your taste, personal taste in wine evolved over the years, especially as you've grown as a winemaker?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

I think uh I'm definitely more acid-focused now. Well, when I first got into the industry, I think um I had a very kind of cabernet palette, like big, broad, tannic. And now um kind of the Pinot aspect, this this lighter, more acid-driven character, I'm I'm really seeking out in wines and in the wines I make as well. Um, it's an attempt to, I think, give the longevity. I want this push-pull on the wine. I don't want something that just kind of hits you over the head with just one thing and kind of really brawling and deeply. I want um you to go back to the glass for a second step and go, okay, there's fruit, but there's like there's a lingering acidity there that draws me back in and kind of makes me thirsty for another sit. Um, that's I think a big change. Um and I don't think that's I'm atypical on that. I think there's a lot of what you're seeing in the market, a lot of people are really interested in like some aromatic whites, some some lighter white wines, um, probably because of that acid, I think, um, and that that character. Um, I think um that's been a big evolution when I came into the industry in the early 2000s. The bigger, broader was was the the those were the wines of the day. Um, and it's changed personally, and I think it's changed um, you know, in the market as well, which is nice to see.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

It is interesting because you're right, like especially in Napa. Napa was the cab cab heaven, you know, everything cab this, cab that, you know. But one of the things that I I I've tended to notice is that there has been a bit of a shift, you know, into other things are being talked about in the region. You know, people are starting to to whisper about non-giant big bold cabs. And I think that's something that is really important to see is that uh there's more than one way to do it, you know, and there's more than one type of uh of way to make a cow. You know, those are some of the thoughts that I've been having.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

There's more than one one variety to grow in in the valley, which is I think we always speak here in at Bialli. The Biallis have been farming in Napa since the 1930s, and we speak as Napa as it was before the judgment of Paris really kind of shifted the the conversion to to Bordeaux and Burgundian varieties. Titsura was the biggest grape grown in Napa until the late 60s, and so we hold that variety along with Zinfidel up as the heritage of this valley. I always tell folks um it's Zen is about 3% of the production of Napa. So realistically, whatever whatever I'm pouring is in from Napa for someone, it's more rare than a lot of things that they've ever had from Napa because there's just so few of them. And then you add to that 120-year-old vineyard from Napa from Coombsville, that gets some attention of like, oh, this is there, there's something there. And it's good to see other people coming around to that now and seeing there this is great soil, this is great land. Um, there's a huge tremendous potential here for a lot of different things and being a little more open to experimenting and and seeing what what kind of you know gets traction in their tasting roots.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah. I I think that's awesome because I think that um when people are only doing one thing and that's the only thing they're doing, uh it doesn't give the full depth of what uh, you know, you imagine that people are listening to one type of music and that's it, you know? And they think that, you know, whether it be country music or hip-hop is the only thing out there. And then they get someone who goes, Hey, you know what? Come and try this out. And they're like, whoa, jazz or you know, whatever other thing they're listening to. And when, you know, one of the things that I've noticed that in the music scene that we're getting so much these days is that it really is concentrated because of the way media kind of pushes certain genres. The reality is there's so much out there, and I think the wine industry has its own version of that, where they've kind of gotten dialed in on one type of wine. You know, it's like, um, yeah, I think that there's more than one way to do it, you know. And I think I'm glad that people are talking about other types of varietals, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah, we're uh our only way wine that we make here at Bialy is a Greco, Greco di Tufo, um, but Greco di Napa, as we say. Um, and at one acre planted, we might be the largest grower in Napa County, as far as I can tell. Um, but people love it because it's just different. It's it's something that they'd not tried before. They're not, they may not be familiar with the Italian version of this grape. And this is the first experience with it, and they go, wow, I didn't know what this was or what to expect. And it's just it's eye-opening for them and say, Okay, it it unlocks something in their brain and say, Oh, there's a lot more out there. There's a lot more than I I I would have expected, um, you know, just from my supermarket shelf.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Right. And that's the thing that too, I I I feel like the the wine industry has to find a way to help people bridge that gap. That that gap of of of access, the access gap, the ability to get your foot in the front door, um, because it can be intimidating, it can be, you know, um really hard to figure out how to enter the room. Not even to like be informed, but like just to get into the room, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, I think that's something that we've not done well as an industry overall. Um, I think um I I love to geek out over wine regions and wine varieties and facts, uh, but that's me. This is my industry. Most people just want to have something really enjoyable to drink. And I think we're we're really bad about decreasing barriers and um something that might have a high price, and we feel the need to just give so much detail about this instead of just saying, Hey, have this with something that you enjoy, whether it be cooking, whether it be n activity, whether it be with family. There are usually never great bottles of wine, they're usually great bubbles of wine and great experiences had together. Um, the what times that I've tried some really high-tier wines, um, I've been less impressed just because they're usually in a tasting uh situation where it's like, okay, that's a really high-priced bottle of wine, and it's okay. But like my friends and family aren't here, it's just kind of a professional tasting. Um I've had other bottles where they're a fraction of the cost at a really good meal, and those stick with me more than anything else. I'm with you as well, man.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I I think that one of the um I remember recently my wife and I were in Vegas, and we were having a wonderful trip. We were there for her show, and it was just me and her, and we were having a fun time. And I grabbed a glass, and it was a glass of of Pinot. And I don't know what Pinot it was, it wasn't anything fancy, but it was wonderful, it was absolutely wonderful because it was the wine that we had at that moment, and it was delicious, and it was great, and it was fun because I got to have it with her, and we had this beautiful trip where we went back up to our room, got this great view of the sphere. And you know, if I was trying to rate that wine on a on a scale, it probably was pretty horrible. Like it wasn't anything great, but man, it hit the right way because of the time and the place. And I think that's what it's all about. It's like it doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to be all this stuff, it just has to be the right time, you know?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Exactly. I think it's uh it's important to just meet people where they're at and not try to bring them in necessarily to our way of thinking of uh everything we think about these special sites. Our tasting room, it just has this beautiful view of the valley from the patio, and we just bring people in like it's family. This this brand, this winery started in the back porch of the Biale house. And we try to replicate that and just bring people in and treat them as family and say, this is kind of what our family has meant to you know, the valley and to uh with wine. Um you're welcome to join and and share this however you want. Um, we meet people all the time who have been members for us with us for about 20 years, 10 years, who just this is their bottle of wine that they share with people and to to new friends that they've met and say, You gotta try this. And it's their connections and what they're doing in their life, not hitting them over the head with statistics about the wine that they're drinking. Just hey, we're all in this together, we're all having fun, we're all enjoying it. Have a glass of this, we think it's really great. Maybe you do too. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

You know, I am growing up in the Napa Valley, I my family moved up there when I was in college, not high school, and my parents started working in the valley. And there's some little things that you don't understand, like when the crush starts and the whole valley starts smelling like like fermenting you know, grape juice. It's wild. And it's just such a magical thing that like there's life to it, there's story to it, there's all of this stuff. And like I feel like we miss that. I remember once um I had the most awesome tasting experience I had. And it was literally like the idiot's guide to tasting. This guy was just so cool. You know, he was like telling us, he's like, All right, guys, first rule here is there's no dumb questions. That's like one of the central principles I have about my entire podcast series. Any podcast I get people on, that's what I tell them. I'm like, you know what? Uh I'm the guy who's gonna be asking all the dumb questions. And it works well for me because, you know, it's like I feel like a lot of people are afraid to ask those dumb questions. And then the questions never get asked, you know? And I think that, you know, for wine, there's a lot of dumb questions. You know, I remember like I always use this example, but my friend went to this tasting room and the guy's like, it's got hints of tobacco. My friend's like, I didn't know that tobacco wine was made with tobacco. And like, you know, and he but he's like, he felt stupid asking that question, you know. He's like, Oh, dude, is there tobacco in the wine? And like for weeks later on, we were like, he was like circling back on this question. He's like, I gotta know, is there tobacco on the wine? And I was like, dude, I don't think there's tobacco on the wine, man. But I didn't have any idea at that time. I was like sitting there, do they make it with, you know, so they someone's got it's got a hint of cherries. Are they dropping cherries in there? And these are things that people feel really dumb about asking, but they're the legitimate questions, you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah, they're absolutely legitimate. And it's um to go into the reason of why those things taste like that, yeah, you can learn about it, but you you you have to let give people the openness to say, to ask those things and to go on their own journey because that's really what it's about. Like, you don't get into to wine and and start drinking the highest tier stuff right off the bat, you have to really like actually like it first and go, okay, this connects with me somehow, and I like how this tastes with that. Or maybe I don't get that hint of of cherry that they're talking about, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

That's it's okay. It's okay, right? Yeah, I love that. I mean, I would be intimidated if someone bought out three of the most expensive bottles of like this is where we're gonna start. I'd be like, oh damn, I'm scared right now. You know, I'm gonna mess this up. Like, what am I tasting for? What is what type of mouth stuff do I have to do? You know, it's like instead, just like give me some some some stuff that gets me you know used to it. Let me ask you another question. If you were to pour three glasses right now for me, what three glasses would you pour?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

So I would pour uh our Greco uh to start because that is really unique for Oaknol, for Napa, uh a high acid, high structure white wine, which is really quite interesting. Um, and then um I probably definitively go with our black chicken. That's our our kind of our flagship. So the black chicken being the code name that the Bialli family, although Bialli specifically uh bootlegged Zen as um in as a teenager, and that's really the heritage of the family, and I think that's the heritage of the brand. Um, and then uh I for something completely different, um, we have we make the only Zen from Stagecoach Vineyard. Um, and that's uh a younger selection for us, but it's a high altitude, high acid, high structure Zen that really opens people's mind to go, I didn't know Zen could do that. And gives you this a peek into what um what the variety is capable of, how expressive it can be of sight. And I think that's really eye-opening for some folks to go, oh wow, that tastes like a really you know high altitude Syrah or like a Sangiovese or something. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Well, I I'll look forward to trying those someday, man. That's awesome. I got another question for you though. Who were the people that shaped you the most in this industry? And what did they pass on to you that you still carry today?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

So I I think I was uh lucky to work with some um some good folks. Um Sean Richardson was the first winemaker who hired me uh at Club of Gas at the time, uh, when it was still uh family run. He was educated out of out of Australia, which was um uh a different perspective from a lot of the the other US trained winemakers I had encountered. Um he was uh a great um resource for, and he was one of the people who said, you know, look how little I use my science now. It's about you know intuition, it's about kind of running running with things as they come. Um and then from a very different perspective, um Richard Swalski, who was uh his replacement at Clopagas, came from Mandavi um in that world and very technical, very highly skilled. Um, look at the business side of winemaking as well and open me up to that, um, which was really um really interesting, but also really nuanced technical view of things. And and once I had that basis, it was like, okay, there's a lot to explore technically here. Um, and then uh La Rochelle, the consulting winemaker and founding winemaker was Tom Stutz, who was a longtime winemaker. He was the um winemaker from Murisu before they were purchased, I think, from Gallo years ago down in Santa Clara Valley. Um, and he had been in the industry long enough to say things that were mind-blowing to me, but things that I had taken for granted that said silicone bungs to close barrels were like the single most and um the biggest invention in winemaking um style, stylistically. And I was like, why? And he said, Well, before, and I had he was like, I'm old enough to have worked with them, we had red wood. And so we have to hammer them in, you have to you know turn the barrels, and the evaporation was completely different. And then he took the science aspect of it and said, and I worked with some people who actually put sensors in these barrels, and you can see that the oxygen level is completely different from a wood bung to a silicon bung, and oxygen races in when you pull a silicon bung. Seeing that, and and he had gotten to a point in his career where he was able to try things and and and really investigate some things, that was eye-opening. And for someone with that wealth of knowledge to see that and someone who's always learning um was really interesting. Um, and I think that's shaped how I approach things because there's always something to learn. Um, and there's always something to reconsider. And my favorite question is to ask why? Why are we doing that? Um, and have and tell people that. Ask me why we're doing this, because if I can't explain to you what I'm I'm thinking, maybe there's another way to do this, and maybe there's another thought here that we can can pursue. I love that, man.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I want to see, like, um one last question. Like, why does wine still matter to you? Why do you think wine is still important in our ever-changing world?

SPEAKER_00 39:49

It is, and this is something I don't think we've done as good a job at as an industry as we can. Um, it is a truly natural product, at least from where I sit. Um, it's it's grapes, it's soil, it's our efforts. Um, and it's put into a bottle. It's pretty simple and pretty expressive of where it's grown. And it is the expression of decades, in some cases, centuries of efforts on this land to create something that's truly unique. It's a snapshot of yes, the winemaker's view of that bottle at that time, but also the soil, the the vintage. I think it it, if you really want to delve into it, there's a wealth of things. It's an onion you peel back the layers on. You can keep going. You can have something as simple as just this is just great and fruity and wonderful with my burger, to um a high value, high, highly sought-after wine, and really peel back what it took to get to that level. Um, but I think it really does link together a lot of things in just human existence. It's been around for for millennia. And I think there's a reason it still matters because it it ties together a lot of pieces that people, if they're really interested in kind of knowing where their food comes from, knowing where their beverages come from, you can really trace that back pretty easily with wine.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I love that, man. If you could uh give yourself some advice for or your younger self some advice, what what advice would you give yourself on your winemaking journey?

SPEAKER_00 41:23

I think uh take as much in. I uh it took me a while to really get into more wines of the world, but I think it was um get into more regions and more see more things. Don't have took me a little while to get a broader scope of things um than just Napa, just California. Um try everything. Just just go out there and try it all. Don't don't say no to something that you think is a is a a less valuable region. Um try it all. There's always something to learn. There's always something to learn from someone who's working there, from anyone um in this industry. There's a wealth of of stories to be told and a wealth of of lessons that they can impart some knowledge from.