Smashing the Wine Norms | Chrissie Smith | Barrels & Roots

In this episode of Barrels & Roots, I sit down with Chrissie Smith, viticulturist and founder of Intrepidus Wines out of Canberra, Australia, for one of the most honest conversations we've had on the show. 

Chrissie breaks down the real difference between growing grapes and making wine, why Australian cool-climate varieties like Shiraz and emerging Italian grapes are turning heads worldwide, and how her eight-year-old daughter accidentally gave the most perfect explanation of winemaking I've ever heard. We also get into the oversupply crisis hitting Australian growers hard right now, why wine is losing younger drinkers to beer and spirits, and what the industry needs to do to stay relevant. 

If you've ever been curious about what it actually takes to grow world-class grapes, this one's for you. 

What's the wine experience you'll never forget and what made it so special? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I love that every day something different. You were doing absolutely something different every day. Um, you know, one day I'll be in the vineyard, the next day I'll be putting wine to a barrel, the next day I'll be in trade trying to sell the wine. Um, it really is something different each day. I guess what I'd love the most, most about it is the people. Um, like when I started in wine, I guess I was coming from a place where I, you know, had lost interest in my job I was doing. I and I found that spark again. I found that um that passion, those people, the people in, you don't go into wine for the money. It's it doesn't pay well. Uh you go into it because you people are passionate about what they do. Um and it's sort of like a big family. It's a small industry, I'd say. So you, you know, you know someone through someone, or you know, someone will give you advice. Um, you've got an issue, and someone from even from the states might comment or, you know, say this is what we do here, and everyone's so open. And yeah, so I really it's just the people, I think, and the the the love of what we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Welcome everybody back to the Barrels and Roots Podcast. Uh, we are coming to you from a different part of the world today. I'm in Southeast Asia, and my guest is in another location entirely, but in a location that has wonderful wine. Can you tell us who you are and what?

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah, good morning. Um, so I am Chrissy Smith from Intrepidist Wines, coming from Canberra, starting to get cold now uh in Australia. Um I uh am a viticulturist by trade, so I consult and contract um to vineyards throughout Canberra and surrounds, uh, and then have my own wine label. So um Intrepidus Wines. So grow some grapes and buy in grapes from Hilltops and Young. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

That's awesome. Well, it's awesome to meet you, first of all, but I want to know how did you get into this beautiful, wonderful world of wine? How did you get started?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Uh in a very different way. So my background is in disability. So I was in England doing uh working with acquired brain injury rehab and came back to Australia and was all set to open up. Well, my dream was to open up a acquired brain injury rehab centre here. Um at that point we didn't have much for younger people that had brain injuries. Um and then was so I live in Yass and was commuting, doing shift work in Canberra, which is an hour's drive. Came off a night shift and rolled my car when I was pregnant with my eldest. So decided I'm not doing shift work anymore. Uh, and then went into the family business. We had an air conditioning business um whilst I had kids. And then unfortunately went through a divorce and needed a new job uh and met a winemaker in a bar who said, come and do vintage. He knew that I loved my wine. Uh, and then just got the bug. I was like, right, this is what I'm doing. Enrolled in uni and um nine years later, this is where I am.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

I love that. I love how those little choices can help us find a bigger path. You know, you don't always realize that something that might seem small uh is actually a like small choice in your life. Like this little thing, like maybe I'll turn left today instead of turning right. But that could be the thing that takes you in a whole new direction. And you don't realize it until it's years later and you're going, oh, that little choice right there, that had all of this thing, you know, that it changed in my life. For me, it was moving to Southeast Asia because, you know, I was living in Los Angeles. I'm actually originally from the Napa Valley, which is why I love wine and how I got going the wine stuff. But then I moved to LA and I was doing graduate school and it just wasn't working. And after university, I had lived in Southeast Asia. But when I moved to Southeast Asia, back to Southeast Asia, it was because all of this other stuff wasn't going right. But yet all these doors opened because of it. And it was just like a little bit of this finding where I was supposed to be, you know, and I think that one of the things that I love about that is sometimes you have to let things unfold, which is why I'm absolutely fascinated by winemaking, because there is a lot of like hurry up and wait. Like there's a lot of like sitting there seeing what's gonna happen, seeing how the grape is gonna grow and evolve. And then, like from what I hear from winemakers, then there's suddenly like this quick action, like, oh my God, we got to work right now. But I want to ask you that that because you work both in the vineyard and in wine making. For people outside the wine world, what's the difference between growing great grapes and turning them into wine? Or is it the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Well, a lot of it's intertwined, but two very different um roles and patience, I guess. So the great growing um is farming, basically. Agriculture, you are growing a crop. You are having to uh work with something that's live. You are having to, I guess, nurture it to get to where you want. Um, the weather might not be kind. Um, you know, you've got to you've got to grow it basically. And there's a lot of things which are beyond your control with the growing. Um winemaking, obviously you you're working with what fruit you then get, but there are a lot of ways in which you can a lot of choices, I guess. You know, you can control the ferment temperature, you can control what yeast you want to use, you can control what oak you want to use. So it's a lot more structured, I guess, in the winemaking compared to the growing, where you're really at nature's mercy, I guess, and and just having to um nurture them through to the end point.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Well, it's interesting to me. It it's I I have never been great with growing plants. I love them. I have like my great-great aunt, and she was uh, she was probably one of the best, had the best green thumbs ever. She had no formal degrees, but she consulted with the University of Toronto as like one of their experts, because if they had a plant that was having problems, exotic, local, whatever, they would bring it to her and she'd be like, oh, it just needs some of this. And it's just it, these plants loved her. And yet I sit there and I go, you know, um, sometimes I have a hard time understanding what it needs, but yet it's a living thing that does its own thing, that likes some things, that dislikes other things. So I'm fascinated about that with with with uh grape growing, because you know, these plants have their own personality. And I hear different varietals have even further different personalities. Have you had any varietals that you love and some that are just ones that you love there?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

In my dreams did I think I would be farming. I um yeah, I am not very great at growing anything other than grapevines. Uh, people will come to me and be like, oh, how should I prune this tree? And I'm like, I I don't know. I don't have a degree in peaches. Um it's really uh like learning a lot of it's observation, like you do your botany and you do your plant protection and all that sort of stuff at uni, but until you're actually out there and observing what's going on and and learning the symptoms and how do you fix that? Um like that's when it really I think comes into honing in on the trade, I guess. Um varieties. Uh so in Canberra, we grow, we're we're known for Shiraz and Riesling. Um, but I love to work with a lot of um Italian varieties. So Nero, love to work with Nero. Um it's uh yeah, growing really well in Australia. Um I think yeah, some of those Italian and Spanish varieties are really sort of coming into their own. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

That's so interesting. Uh I love Australian wine. And I because it's interesting because I grew up in California. You know, I'll love a Napa cab. It's got its own flavor, but like when I moved to Southeast Asia, most of the wines that we had access to were Australian because it's just way closer. And I kind of got hooked on Australian wines, and it's interesting too because they have this uniquely different flavor, you know, there's just this different vibe to them. And it's interesting too, like it's one of the I I love talking about location with wine. Don't make me say the French word because I'm so bad at saying terroin. But you know, uh I it's so interesting. How do you find that location makes your wine so special there in Australia? Especially.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

But uh I think, say Canberra, for an example, we're known as cool climate. So in the summer we get to 40 degrees, but overnight we get it might go down to 15. So you have these longer ripening periods. Um I think uh the Australian line, I guess, yeah, it's it's a little I like to think of it as a little bit um like like as I said, not having those rules. So we can play with varieties, um, alternate varieties. We can um pick when we want to pick. If that means a lighter style with lower alcohol, drink it a bit easier. Um yeah, I just think uh certainly for Canberra, it's that that fresher, younger, um more like you can drink them early, you don't have to age them, you don't have to have them with food. Um they're more that medium-bodied Sherazzes, which are quite bright and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

It's so interesting. It's so interesting too because they just have yeah, they're just just such a unique character. But I want to ask you this too, because I I approach things from like the dumbest common denominator level. And how does I have a very inquisitive 10-year-old that sits next to me and asks me, hey dad, how, how, how does this work? How does this work? And I'm just like, I don't know. But I'll ask people who do. If you had like a 10-year-old ask you, how does grape juice become wine, how would you explain that process in the most simple terms?

SPEAKER_02 10:35

So when I started in wine, I had a eight-month-old and I've got three girls, um, but my youngest was uh has has grown up picking uh grapes in a pram. And she's just sort of come along often and um with me. And I she's eight now. Yeah, and she's uh eight now. And I actually asked her this question. I said, How does grape juice um be made? You know, how do we make it into wine? Um and she first up asked me, answered, she said, um, are you talking about from when we are uh growing it or from when it's picked? And even that was super interesting to me because I was like, Oh, so she has seen me propagate cuttings and have them in heat beds in my kitchen. Um so she actually said, I wrote it down, she said, uh first you get an open space, then you get a cutting and grow the cutting. So, which we do. Grape vines come from cuttings, and um that takes two to three years for them to then um uh establish fruit. And then she said, then you have to keep an eye on them when they are growing. You have to watch them and take care of them and do stuff to them so the grapes don't break and stuff. And so we train them. We train them up onto a wire. We have to spray, um, make sure that you know, uh watch out for mildews and all that sort of thing. You have to make sure they're watered. Um, plenty of things you have to do in the vineyard to get them to establish and then um start growing your grapes. And then she said, then you pick them when they are ripe. So ripeness is um the right sugar, the right alcohol, the right fruit um ripeness. So if your seeds are ripe, if your um skins are ripe for your tannins. Uh and then she said, then you have to put them in a big weird tub. Then you put them through a distemmer thingy. So she said we have to be into picking bins, and then yeah, for for if you're handpicked or even machine harvest, you then destem them, um, which takes the stalks off. So you're just working with the fruit. Some red wines you might leave, some on which gives on the stems, which gives you a whole bunch. And then she said, then you have to smoosh them. So uh she's referring to foot stomping um on red wines. So um once you yeah, uh smoosh them, it then means that the sugars can be consumed by the yeast. Um so then she put the then you have to put yeast in and it turns the sugar into alcohol. And so wine does become wine from um yeast, turning the sugar into alcohol. Um and then she said, then you put it in the press to press the wine off the skins. Uh and then she said, then you put it in a big tank. So for um white wines, you generally press them off the skins and ferment them in a big tank. Reds, you'll ferment them on the skins, which gives it the colour, and then you press them off once they're fermented. And then she put, then you have to get some out of the tap to taste it to make sure that it's right. And so I probably would have missed this because that's just something you do, like we're forever tasting. And I don't, yeah, I would have missed that in my process of explaining how do you make wine that you are tasting to see when it's right, you are doing all that. So I found it fascinating that she recognized that in her head as an important step. Um and then she said, then you put it in the bottles and then the caps and then the labels, and then you need to sell it.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

So right.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Wow. I uh I almost got a little emotional there at the beginning. And I'm not gonna lie, uh it's it's early in the day for me, and I just was thinking about my daughter, but it's like it's not just winemaking, it's like you're parenting to a degree. You know, you you plant this thing and then you you send it out into the world and you're guiding it before it becomes when does a grape become wine? You know, when does a child become an adult? And that's one of the things I love as we our world is going more digital and everything becomes so fast. Winemaking is still this the slow process, is still this thing that takes time and takes focus and takes, you know, um, being present. And I that's one of the things too, because you've been involved in vineyard management, winemaking, judging, and wine education. What part of all of this do you love the most?

SPEAKER_02 15:09

I love that every day something different. You were doing absolutely something different every day. Um, you know, one day I'll be in the vineyard, the next day I'll be putting wine to a barrel, the next day I'll be in trade trying to sell the wine. Um, it really is something different each day. I guess what I love the most, most about it is the people. Um, like when I started in wine, I guess I was coming from a place where I, you know, had lost interest in my job I was doing. I and I found that spark again. I found that um that passion, those people, the people in, you don't go into wine for the money. It's it doesn't pay well. Uh you go into it because you people are passionate about what they do. Um and it's sort of like a big family. It's a small industry, I'd say. So you you know, you know someone through someone, or you know, someone will give you advice. Um, you've got an issue and someone from even from the states might comment or, you know, say this is what we do here, and everyone's so open. And yeah, so I really it's just the people, I think, and the the the love of what we do.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

I started this podcast because I grew up in uh the Napa Valley and I loved watching the people work. I love the smell. I don't think people can understand like when harvest comes in, all the grapes start coming in and like they start crying the entire valley smells like wine. It's just this absolutely delicious smell that just is everywhere. My wife was like, didn't believe me. And I was like, no, it just the whole place will smell like wine. And she's like, No, that's and then one day we were back in the Napa Valley at that time with my mom, and we walked outside to get a cup of coffee. We're walking up at the coffee shop, and she's like, What's that smell? It's like everywhere. And I was like, that's that's what it smells like during crush. It's wild, it's amazing. She's like, This is this is fantastic. And what was special for me is that though the part that was special for me is that the people, all of the people that would be out there, from the people working in the the fields to the people working in the wineries, the people working at all parts of the industry were just down-to-earth good people, you know, it was farmers and the people there to support that. But one industry changed in my hometown. It got very different, it got very like uptight, but I wanted to remind people of the people out there doing it. And people out there making wine are just cool people, you know. Certainly there's some of the yeah, so this vintage is, but you know what? Most of the psalms I've met have been the coolest people on the planet, you know. That I had one psalm describe uh this one type of wine as Rottweiler in a bottle. And I was like, that that's the type of description I need for wine. If this is a Rottweiler in a bottle, I want to know. Because I need to know it's gonna be that type of night. Sometimes you need a Rottweiler in a bottle, but sometimes you want something different.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Going back to the smell, like I wish you could sort of frame the smell of a Chardonnay in a new oak bottle, uh uh New Oak barrel as it's fermenting. It is like one of the nicest smells you could ever smell. So yeah, I 100% agree that the winery smell when everything's fermenting is absolutely delicious. Um my newest label, I do a trigger Shras Grenache, and I call it a TSG. And I hate the snobbery of wine. I'm really not into the snobbery of wine, and so I said, it might have been my 12-year-old, I said, What's TSG mean? She's like, totally slate it, guys. So that's what's on my label.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

That's rad. And that is a bottle of wine that I need to try. Next time I'm in Australia, I I'm I'm there with you because totally slate it, guys, is is absolutely awesome. I want to ask you this, though, because like we're touching on something here, and one thing I noticed from your post is how much you care about the future of wine industry and supporting younger professionals, you know, and and helping shape the direction this this whole industry is going. Like to me, why is mentorship and education so important in wine and so important in general?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, well, I think you have the side of wine where you've come from a family of winemaking and you know, you've grown up in that um, you have, you know, that legacy and you you move into that role. Um, there's also the side of wine where you come fresh, like I did. Um and so yeah, I was early 30s coming into a career which I knew nothing about. Um and I was really fortunate to have um a few good mentors at that time. Um I had I was a single mum with three kids under eight, I think, at that time. And to do vintage, to work, you know, seven days a week for you know a month or two is really hard unless you've got people that helped support you and provide that flexible environment. And um that's a really big barrier, I think, for people coming into the industry, um, especially females, um, is yeah, trying to trying to have that flexibility with family and um during vintages, yeah, it's it's certainly really, really tough. And we're losing a lot of people because they can't balance everything. Um, so because I was fortunate to have a lot of really good mentors and people help me um get through that and then um obviously make it a real make a good career out of it, um, I find it really important to give that back and make sure that those that are younger starting and and have no idea that they've got people that they can lend to and help them through and guide them. Um, because we do have an aging population in the industry, which are, you know, they're they're retiring out and we don't have people um coming in. So it's just trying to get that retention of younger um not even younger, but piece people that don't have experience and and guiding them into retaining them in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

I've noticed this many times, and this is something that they talk about in California as well, that the um the age of the consumer is also higher than what they would like. But yet the wine industry is not doing a lot to fix that. They're not trying to go for these younger generations. There are actually a couple really cool wineries in the uh the Napa area. Tank Garage is one cool one with Ed there doing awesome stuff. Like their marketing is great, it's fun, it is just in your face, Ed, cool. But so many wineries are still like, let's give people a drone shot. And like Let's advertise. Here we go. Here's a beautiful shot of our video. Like, okay, but what are you selling? Like, I would prefer your TSG wine any day, just because of the way you're you're you're you're you're framing it, to something that just is like, we're gonna mark with a beautiful picture that's a wide shot of our facility. Like, man, I don't care what your building looks like, I care about the stories behind the line. And you know, and I think that one of the things is they're not they're not trying to tell those stories. And and like also they're not trying to get into the right places. Like, you've made a really interesting point about concerts, and this is something that I noticed too. When I go out to concerts, there's tons of beer, there's spirit options, but like almost no wine. And I was in Vegas recently with my wife, and we were going out and having some fun in Vegas, and I had to hunt for a good glass of wine and like beer everywhere, cocktail lounges everywhere. But for me to get a good glass of wine, I had to go and look all over the building. And that was wild that even in Vegas, you know. But why do you think wines sometimes struggle to connect with younger audiences or or more casual audiences?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

That the event that I went to was an Oasis concert, so sold out massive in Australia. Um, and I could not get a glass of wine. Uh, I'm not a big beer or spirit drinker. Um so it yeah, it was just super interesting for me to see. And that was actually a rule that the event could only have 3.5% alcohol sold there. So for a wine, um, there's obviously a lot of research into that space um trying to get the no and low. Uh, but I just we're just not quite there yet. The the lower alcohol wines just don't have the same taste or quality, I feel, yet, um, that say the equivalent um beer or spirits do. Um, I think you look at that, you go, well, I know I'm too he's new, you know, year on year, um, no matter where you go, that bottle's going to taste exactly the same. Same with an RTD or a spirit. So um they're an easy, uh, easy market, I would say, um, easy to go, and you go, oh, I know exactly what I'm getting. Wine is different. It's different year on year. Some of the larger um you know, commercial wineries can make a wine to a recipe, and you you do know that, okay, if I buy that, it's going to be exactly what I think it is. Um, exactly the same as the previous bottle that you've had. Um, so I think for smaller formats like um wine in a can, we're really trying to do, that would work well at at venues and things like that. Um, but again, we're not quite there yet on wine in a can. There's, you know, it it um it doesn't let it breathe as much. So then you have reduction issues in the wine in the can. So there's there's that side of things. And then I think there's the side, like you say, of um not marketing to to younger people, not not doing the right thing, like the you people who say drink beer, they're not turning around and saying, Oh, what vintage have you got or what region is it from? Or that pressure or that conversation about you you just don't have it. There's no snobbery there. Whereas wine, yeah, you feel pressured to, oh, is this a good vintage? Is this going to be nice? Is this um yeah, I just think there's that that we need to transition out of that and just make it, do you enjoy drinking it? Is it what what do you want to drink right now? If you're a wine drinker and no matter where you are, let's drink wine. Let's not, you know, worry about vintage and all that sort of stuff and names and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

I I had this time period where I was, as I was learning more about wine, I was trying to get into it and understand things. And I was just like, well, what vintage is this? What year is this? What you know, varietal is this? And one of the things I said, just buy something, ignore all the rest, and just try it, you know? And so I'd go in and tell the the person at the shop that I really trusted, recommend something to me. It doesn't need to be fancy, it just needs to, like, in your opinion, something that's special. And I got some of the best recommendations that I ignored the year, ignored everything else, and I just tried to taste. And it was one of the things too, is like it allowed me a lot more freedom to like enjoy, you know, different things. But it it forced me to kind of reframe things in a way that I think a lot of people are having a hard time with right now because people want to get into like what's really trendy or special. This is a problem with our whole generation right now. We love trends, you know. And my daughter was like, I want to buy this new thing. And I said, Why? Because it's trending right now. And I was like, Oh God. Well, I mean, do you like it? Well, I don't know, but my friends all have it. I said, But do you like it? Is it something that you actually care about? And I mean, and I mean trends can be great, but I think that one of the things that I I want to do is to find ways to experience, to taste, and to form my own opinions, you know? And I think that takes a little bit of courage to think different, to be different, you know?

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And I think it's um trying things. Uh when I met my partner, he didn't drink wine at all. He was like, he just had this preconceived conception of no, I don't like it, because he'd tasted something at some point which wasn't nice. Um now loves it. And it's just from trying, and he'll now be going like, oh, I I like that variety over that variety. And it's yeah, it's I think it's trying to push through that barrier of people thinking, oh, I don't like it, or you know, red wine is a strong flavor. Um, if you have a bad red wine, it will put you off.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

So it's trying, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

I've I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Like I um I had a bad red wine early on, and I was just like, nope, I'm never trying that again. And then I had a really good red wine. You know what was wild that I actually had some bad white wine experiences, and then of late I tried, I got back into white wine because it just I had some really great whites, and it was awesome because it was again coming up to I just had to try more things to to kind of redefine that. But I want to ask you a little bit of personal taste. If you had to pour three glasses for someone right now that didn't know a lot about wine, what three glasses are you pouring?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

That is a very good question. Um I think so in Australia right now, um well in my market, Pinot Gris is the fastest selling white variety. Uh, I can see why. It's easy drinking, it's not offensive, you don't have to think a huge amount about it. Um so yeah, for someone new to mine, I would go a Pinot Gris. Uh and then sparkling. I would do a glass of sparkling. Um I think that again, it's something that people look at as a celebratory drink, but it's actually actually really delicious. And it's similar in the Pinot Gris vein that um you can have so many different styles. Um so just something um to make them aware of a sparkling um traditional method, um, I think. And then I would go a maybe even a temper neo for a red, something that's a little bit fruity, a little bit lighter, um, something that's yeah, going to not be too tannic, not too aggressive. Um, yeah, just some of those varieties that are easy to get into, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

I like that. I love the sparkling angle. I love I try to recommend for some people. I I I get my wife Rose when she is drinking with me, because she's not a wine drinker, but she can handle rose. And it's one of the superpowers I have, so that she'll enjoy a glass of wine with me. But I I want to ask you this one because the the winemakers and growers, uh everything that's always challenges, but what do you think are the biggest challenges winemakers and growers are facing today?

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Yeah, well, I don't think it's just in Australia, but we have an oversupply issue. Um, I think uh so um we had a big market into China, um, especially with Shiraz. So we extended a lot of plantings in Australia um to accommodate that, and then um China put in the tariffs, and we've got like two, yeah, 262 million litres of excess wine in Australia this year. So that then impacts growers. So wineries can't take in any more wine, they're not buying fruit from growers. Um, and then you've just got this excess um market where fruit's low, um, growers aren't making any money. We're having there's a big um removal at the moment from growers. I work with one who I buy my Nero and Shannon from, and he normally sells a couple of thousand tons a year. This year he sold 200 tons. So for him, that's like over a million dollars loss in income in one year. Um and that's just on a small scale. Um, that's not one of the really large um vineyards or producers in Australia. So uh, and uh yeah, I said I don't think that's just Australia. I think that's um an issue that's happening in a lot of wine-growing regions, but um it impacts the whole supply chain because then you've got um, you know, growers that don't have work or fruit coming in, you've got um people drinking less wine, so there's less wine sales. Um yeah, there's just uh it's really hard. It's really hard in the industry at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

It's interesting too, because one of the things that um what was it? Like the whether it be an oyster or a diamond, that pressure causes things to shift and evolve. You know, so I'm hoping that this pressure can help the wine industry evolve and maybe come out better for it, you know. What's really important? How do you really connect with an audience? I think that um people like to chase the flashy stuff. We like to chase those big markets. Oh, we've got this big market over here, let's run after them instead of, you know, how how do we make great wine? And I mean, I'm sure everyone was asking that the whole way. But like, I think that one of the things that I think is so important to me is sustainability, you know, and not sustainability just in the land, but of like, how do we have an industry that is not overreaching and not just trying to chase down the newest trend to actually be because it's like the number of wineries that opened in California is insane. It was an absolutely insane number. And I'm gonna throw some of the uh the Silicon Valley type under the uh under the bus here. Like they were all coming up and going, I'm now I'm now a winery owner. And yes, you are, but like, you know, it's just one more thing. And like I think that I get when I was younger, I got to meet some of these people that were second, third generation winemaking families, some of them way older than that. And when I met them, like what I found was that winemaking wasn't as flashy as everyone made it, it was just a process that people did and they loved. And, you know, I I feel like sometimes when we chase this excess, some of that love dissipates. If I'm I make videos and if I made a thousand videos a month for my own brand, I'm gonna promise you that sometimes that quality might not be there as much, you know, unless I actually expand everything and I have a huge team. But even still, people are gonna be like, do I need that much? You know, and I don't know if this is making sense what I'm talking about, but I don't know. I feel like there's this, you know, coming back to your roots type of a thing that I'm saying, maybe this helps people figure out why, why we're doing what we do? Why are people making this beautiful thing in the first place? And to me, it's all about bringing people together. You know, it's all about creating that central shared space where we can all enjoy this thing at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

100% agree.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

You're involved with wine judging and training programs. Like when you taste a wine, what separates a good wine from one that really sticks with you? Like something that whether you're gonna be like, Yeah, I'm gonna remember that.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah, good question. Um so judging, you will taste 100 wines, blind. And it will be you go back afterwards and once you once the results are out and you go, oh, this is what I thought of this, and you look for the ones that you really loved and you go, Oh, why, why did I love that? Um, yeah, what do they do? You might, you know, look it look into the producer and see what techniques they use and things like that. Um, and that's what I love about judging, is in you get to to try such an array of wines, which you don't you wouldn't necessarily, especially being a salt, like I work by myself all the time. I'm not gonna open 20 bottles of wine to be out of taste and benchmark and things like that. So in a judging scenario, some of those golds and top golds that come out, you sit then, you just go, Oh my god, that is a cracking wine. Like that is, and you look at it technically. I think for me, some of the best wines are where you have them and who you have them with. Um, you know, I was at um when I first fell in love with Pinot and it sticks in my head. Um, I was a wine bar with friends, and we had um, it was a Pinot um by far in Geelong, and it was just such a great night, and it made the wine so special. And I woke up the next day going, oh my god, that was such a good wine. I yeah, I want to try it again. And I did, and it wasn't quite as great as the night before. It was 100% beautiful, but it was that environment and the people you were with, and and that's where I think the memories of the wine and and who makes them and the bottle really sticks with you.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I I love that the um some of the best wines that I've had were wine experiences, and it wasn't just the bottle, it was a phenomenal bottle, a delicious bottle, but it was a bottle that was paired with either a location, like we were doing something, and we were there at this place, and it was also um wines that were gifted to me by winemaking friends, and you know, sitting there and enjoying it with them and going, Hey Sean, I just I just bottled this. You gotta try this, it goes well with this and this. And I tried it, and I was like, that was phenomenal, and it was phenomenal because I had a friend hand me a bottle they made, like that's special, you know, and that's something that to me is is organic and real. Like, I can buy a really, really nice car. This is a weird example, but if someone was like, hey, I rebuilt this car and I hop in there with them, like, that's this is pretty amazing, you know? But it's interesting too because Australia has such a unique wine culture and landscape, you know. What do you think Australian wine does especially well that people in other countries might not fully appreciate?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Part of it goes back to what I was saying before. We we are allowed to experiment in so many different ways with um what we plant and how we make wine. Um so I think that's one thing that um, yeah, I I think is really cool. And um we're I guess as a younger, you know, well I say younger, but um working out what grows well here. You've got, you know, as I was saying, the the Spanish and Italian varieties, which we are now seeing are actually like really, really working well for our climate. Um we've got some of the new CSRO um have got the Gen 1 um powdery and uh downy mildew resistant varieties, which I've just planted for a vineyard. So um, you know, leaning into that um that called peewees overseas um varieties there. Uh I would say that we have um so we've got an Australian wine research institute, AWRI for short. Um, and in 2020 we had bushfires, which wiped out a lot of uh the Australian grape-going regions. Um and we were doing smoke research prior to that, but after the 2020 bushfire season, the AWRI put a lot of work into smoke taint research. Um, and we're now seen as a leader in that research worldwide. So you can they've you know they've found out at what points throughout your growing season, when when you know when's when's smoke hit, how much has it hit, how long has it hit for. Um, you can test the fruit and they'll give you levels to know whether it's generally gonna provide smoke taint or not, so that growers have got actual resources to know and be able to have picking decisions. Am I gonna pick? Am I gonna make that wine? Um, so I think, yeah, Australia's um really ahead in that, and it's great to see that we're seen as um world leaders in that. Um another program which uh I was on the advisory panel for is gender equality. Um, so Wine Australia and Australian Grape and Wine Um have done a gender equality toolkit, I guess. Um, and they just spoke at um I did so it's the International Organization of Vine and Wine. Um so they they collectively represent 85% of the global vineyard area in the world. Um and so Australia pitched this new toolkit, um, and it's now going to be used as part of that to roll out um, you know, across other countries. So um I find it really important for um, I guess my background and disability, but um, you know, gender and it to inclusion for everybody to be able to work in this great space is really important.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Um so yeah, I think that's cool that Australia's also leading that as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

You know, it is.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

It's like I think that we are not talking about these things enough that if we have I look at it this way, right? If you have a room with 28 kids, let's imagine that we're just talking about children. And then you sit there and look at that room and say, okay, only half of these are gonna ever be able to go on to become this career, you know, say scientist, then you might in the half that you just say, well, we're not gonna let them become scientists, you might have the future Albert Einstein that you just said, no, you know. So if we can make these things accessible to everyone, it gives us the ability to have such beautiful variety, beautiful developments in that. And yet, I mean, especially in the US, we see that things are still very much separated by by race, by class, by you know, different types of categories that are uh by gender, of course, that are things that really shouldn't be inhibiting people from learning these beautiful arts if they want to. But it leads to my next question, my last question. If somebody listening is going, you know what, I would love to do that. They wanted to get into winemaking someday. What's the best way to start learning? You know, is it working harvest, studying, tasting, or just jumping into the interest?

SPEAKER_02 42:10

My personal experience was I literally went and did a vintage and was like, I've got the bug. So be careful. If you're not um willing to jump in and you you will get the bug. So you uh if you if you try it, you will. Um, but I think yeah, the most you can learn is from the people that are already doing that work. Um and generally speaking, they will be so happy to share and teach and bring you in. So I think for yeah, for anyone wanting uh to get into the industry would be just volunteer to help pick. Um, you know, ask, can I come and see the process? Can you um yeah, I think it depends on on, I mean, we need um desperately need more viticulturalists and people in the growing side of things. Um I originally thought, yeah, I I'm gonna want to be the flashy winemaker. Um, and you do that, it's not that flashy. There's a lot of cleaning and a lot of other stuff that's involved. But um, I then so I started my wine-making degree, but then found there's so much in the vineyard that uh you can do to shape that wine, and it's so important and there's so much more work opportunity because there's not people people don't want to be the farmer, they don't want to be doing the you know, the hard yakka. So I think um, yeah, go have a look at the growing side um because it's so much um it's so interesting. There's so much you can do to help create quality grapes that you know then make these beautiful wines. And um there's a shortage. There is a shortage.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I love that. Well, where can people go to find out more about you?

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Intrepid swines is my Instagram. Um, and then yeah, also on um LinkedIn or web my website, Intrepiduswines.com.au