Brands Need Meaning | Kristian Harmston | Barrels and Roots

In this episode of Barrels and Roots, I sit down with Kristian Harmston, the founder of Alchemy Asia and one of the most experienced beverage industry leaders in Southeast Asia. Kristian shares how he went from working in restaurants and bars to building a major drinks distribution company across multiple markets, representing global brands like The Macallan, Aperol, Cointreau, Cuervo, Remy Martin, Hennessy, and more. He also talks about creating his own gin distillery in Vietnam and how Lady True was born during COVID as a way to capture the flavors, culture, and energy of Vietnam in a bottle.

What I loved about this conversation is how much it goes beyond drinks. We talk about branding, distribution, hospitality, cocktail culture, consumer behavior, and why some beverage brands take off while others disappear before people ever notice them. Kristian breaks down what distribution really means, why the right restaurant, hotel, airport, or cocktail bar can matter more than simply being everywhere, and why a brand needs a clear reason to exist if it wants to earn its place on a shelf or behind a bar.

We also get into the power of story, taste, authenticity, and occasion. From Vietnamese botanicals and local gin to Jägermeister’s connection with street culture, tequila’s rise in Southeast Asia, beer as a social leveler, and how history shapes what different countries drink, this episode is a deep look at how culture, place, and emotion shape the drinks we love. For anyone interested in wine, spirits, cocktails, hospitality, beverage branding, or the business behind what ends up in your glass, this conversation is full of insight.

What do you think matters more when choosing a drink: the taste, the story, or the moment you are drinking it in?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yeah, look at it it's very, very tough. We often talk. One of my old colleagues, Josh, talks about dying in beauty. You've got all these wonderful products which are out in the market, but nobody actually gets access to them or sees them or knows about them. But if you think about it, there's a hundred thousand plus spirit brands around the world, a hundred thousand, a lot. Thirteen thousand distilleries, twelve thousand craft distilleries, thirty thousand craft spirit brands at least. And then if you look at gin specifically, there's seven thousand gins, you know. So how do you cut through in that environment? And I think um for me, one one one part of the process is the fact that we've had, we have distribution, a distribution network. So for us, we can plug our product into it. However, that's not necessarily to say that an outlet's going to just take the product because you put it in front of them. You've got to have a reason to have it there. So for us, it was very much about starting at home, starting uh to be relevant to Vietnamese consumers and the Vietnamese market first and foremost. And, you know, as as Vietnamese things take off around the world, cuisine, travel to this country, et cetera. I mean, you know, Vietnam's pretty hot right now, you'd argue, um, in terms of the cuisine and you know, a destination. So I think that, you know, we kind of lean into that a little bit. And um, as we start to penetrate markets like the US, and I was in Australia last week doing a bunch of events down there, we'll start to penetrate the markets through that kind of diaspora of Vietnamese that are overseas, but also, you know, through the cuisine angle and through the through the cultural angle, you know, people visiting the country and wanting to take something home. So that's that's kind of where it starts, I guess, first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Welcome everybody back to the Barrels and Roots podcast. I've got an awesome guest with me today. Can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, sure. Uh, thanks for having me on, mate. Um, I'm Christian Harmston. I uh have a distribution company called Alchemy Asia, which runs across uh around six markets within Southeast Asia, uh, representing lots of fantastic brands, uh including the McAllen, Aperol, uh Contro, Cuervo, you kind of name it. We we have it in the portfolio. Uh Remy Martin as well, for example, Hennessy, et cetera. So have a lot of different international brands that we look after. I've got about 300 people that work across the region and we cover all facets of the market on-premise, which means bars, clubs, restaurants, hotels, and off-premise, which would include things like convenience stores, supermarkets, traditional retailers, and that sort of thing. So I've been at it a long time. So that's the the main business for me that I that I have. And then separate to that, I also have a um gin distillery. And uh at that gin distillery, Lady True, we produce obviously gin, but we also make uh vodka and various other products um um out of there. So those are the two key businesses I have. And then I have an interest in some hospitality as well. So I've got around uh nine bars and restaurants as part of Tribe Hospitality Group operating here within Vietnam and a couple of small interests within um within Thailand as well in that, in that in that sector. So I'm pretty much an end-to-end drinks guy, I guess you'd say. That's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

And it's like you, I wanted to chat with you because we've met ages ago uh for a project that I think I worked on with you guys, but you have such an interesting background. You've done so much in the market. And I want to know how did you get into this? Like, what was it that kicked you off down this working with beverages?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Look, I kind of fell into it. I guess, I guess um, when you're a a young um person starting out from university or college, um, you know, you kind of you um you you find yourself drawn towards things which interest you. I was always interested in the the beverage industry. I mean, obviously from a very young age, I was working in uh restaurants and bars, started as a dish pig, a dishwasher, a dish pig they're called in Australia. So I started doing that um from a very young age, 17 or thereabouts, and then worked my way through various facets of the hotel um environment. And then eventually went into to become a sales rep for a company called Beam Suntory, or Jim Beam as it was known back then. And um, yeah, I've kind of never, never left the industry. I mean, it's one of those industries which keeps you, I guess it keeps you pretty young. It's pretty exciting. There's always something happening. Uh you're in fast-paced, fun environments. Um, you're developing brands in, you know, really cool uh atmospheres. And um, you know, you're talking about cocktails and making drinks and mixing drinks and enjoying the finer parts of life. I guess that's what the industry is about. So I can't imagine doing anything else. It's been 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

I I um right. It's like, and I think that people don't realize that like once you get into something, like I started this podcast because I've I I I'm in media and content, but like I grew up in the Napa Valley. My family, you know, I have grown up around wine, and like there is a deep part of me that just loves beverages. It loves, I love good wine, man. And I mean, if something if we're getting together a group of people, I'm like, what bottle are we opening? What are we doing right now? Because to me, it's it's part of that experience, you know. And I think that people don't fully understand that when it's something that just once you get into it, like it's a part of you. But you know, I I wanted to ask you this because you've seen things going from one end to the other, especially with your with your own, you know, gin business right now, your gin distillery. Like, how does a bottle actually go from an idea to be on a shelf or in a bar? Like, that's fascinating to me, you know?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, yeah. It it is um, it's quite a fascinating process. I guess um, you know, if I think back to the time in which we started Lady True, it was a time upon which we were in the middle of COVID, we were in the middle of lockdown here. I was in Vietnam at that time. We had a pretty serious um second lockdown, I'd say particularly, was was pretty heavy. Yeah. And um our business in in Alchemy is very much on trade driven. So in our part of the world, in Asia in general, um, you you you'd say that most consumption happens in the on-premise, happens in bars and restaurants rather than at home as it would in the West. So um, as a result of that, during COVID, our business really suffered and we were um kind of um not having a good time at all. I mean, let's say our business was 10% of what it normally would be. So we had a lot of difficulty going through that period, and I guess it was an opportunity for us to look within, not only, you know, reflect on how we were going to survive that period, but also, you know, look at what positives we could take out of it. And we found that was a time to be very creative. And I think um, you know, knowing that we have uh 17,000 odd distribution points in our business, um, it made sense for us to start to develop some of our own products to fit within that, other than the the brands that we were representing internationally. So that was kind of where the idea was born from. We had worked and helped out on various other projects of brands within Vietnam and within the region, and it just made sense for us to try. Um, so it was really funny. I got on the phone, I called a um a still producer in Tasmania called Stillsmiths, and uh I ordered it, I ordered a still, a $100,000 um pot still, and uh walked back into the room with my colleagues and said, Hey, I've just bought this still, now we're committed, let's go and make this happen. And the process from there was very interesting. I mean, I guess you've got to find a distiller, you've got to find, you know, someone to make the product. We had to find a site on which to make it and get all the relevant licensing, which is always difficult. And then lastly, we had to come up with a brand and a concept which resonated with consumers within Vietnam first and foremost, because this was our home market. And then secondly, when you think about the liquid, I guess the liquid had to be relevant. We had to reflect everything that was part of Vietnam. So we took um, you know, a lot of the local botanicals. In fact, all of our botanicals are sourced locally except juniper. So that was very part, an important part of the story for the brand as well. So it resonated locally. And there was um you know, that's not dissimilar to talking about wine, say from Napa. You know, you think about Cabernet from Napa, it's got a very distinctive style flavor. We wanted to make sure that what we were doing with gin also represented the flavors of Vietnam and, you know, the bombastic and exciting place that we live in. So um that was kind of the main driver behind it.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

It's interesting too, because you know, I'm not gonna lie, like honestly, when I go back home to Napa, you know what's the go-to gift? I I buy your guys a little sample set, like your little sample set of Lady Trio Gin. I like that's what I kick with me all the time to people back in the wine industry. I was like, right, well, you guys are always gifting me really cool stuff from Napa. Like, I want to give you something that from from my part of the world because you have really captured some of the interesting flavors that are so unique to this area. And like, no, for sure, man. It's like it, like I love I know what you guys are doing awesome. My wife and I love going by and and drinking, you know, at the you have an in-person facility as well. And I think that being able to capture the essence of something is a magical thing, you know?

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah, correct. I mean, that was very, very much at the forefront of what we were doing. And I felt like I felt like we we wouldn't have been successful if we hadn't been able to capture that. And, you know, I have older Vietnamese uh uh consumers who are not necessarily gin drinkers, but you know, when you when they open the bottle and they smell it, they're like, oh my God, this reminds me of my childhood. It reminds me of walking around the markets in Hoyan when we talk about the Hawaiian spice gin. This reminds me of I get the illong tea from, you know, Safra, etc. So you're right, it's kind of our way of taking people on a journey to Vietnam through their taste buds um and through and through and through drinking. And, you know, the same can be said of wine when you take wine from different regions or whiskey from different regions as well. So that's that's very important to have that provenance attached to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I love that. But it leads me to ask this because throughout the beverage industry, whether it be gin or wine or something else, like I want your opinion as why do some brands take off while others never really get noticed? You know, is because this is a problem that the wine industry in California and the the world is having a big problem with right now. There are so many people, there was a big boom, and then now people are like, well, how do we stand out in the market? And I'd love to know what your opinion is on that.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, look, it it's it's very, very tough. We often talk, one of my old colleagues, Josh, talks about dying in beauty. You've got all these wonderful products which are out in the market, but nobody actually gets access to them or sees them or knows about them. But if you think about it, there's a hundred thousand plus spirit brands around the world, a hundred thousand, a lot. 13,000 distilleries, 12,000 craft distilleries, 30,000 craft spirit brands at least. And then if you look at gin specifically, there's 7,000 gins, you know. So how do you cut through in that environment? And I think um for me, one one one part of the process is the fact that we've had, we have distribution, a distribution network. So for us, we can plug our product into it. However, that's not necessarily to say that an outlet's gonna just take the product because you put it in front of them. You've got to have a reason to have it there. So for us, it was very much about starting at home, starting uh to be relevant to Vietnamese consumers and the Vietnamese market first and foremost. And, you know, as as Vietnamese things take off around the world, cuisine, travel to this country, et cetera. I mean, you know, Vietnam's pretty hot right now, you'd argue, um, in terms of the cuisine and you know, a destination. So I think that, you know, we kind of lean into that a little bit. And um, as we start to penetrate markets like the US, and I was in Australia last week doing a bunch of events down there, we'll start to penetrate the markets through that kind of diaspora of Vietnamese that are overseas, but also, you know, through the cuisine angle and through the through the cultural angle, you know, people visiting the country and wanting to take something home. So that's that's kind of where it starts, I guess, first and foremost.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

And I think that there is that that level of trust too, you know, because here, you know, I was at Ten Sanya, and first of all, V and I, my wife and I, we love to go to Lady Trayo to have some cocktails. And when we're there, you know, I was like, wow. And then I saw the gift set. And you guys got the distribution at the airport. So like it's at the airport as well, which is such an easy oh wow, hey, look at that. That's an awesome thing. That would be some a great gift to take with us, you know, a whole Vietnamese. 100%. And then me, and then I go back to Napa, where I have people who trust me in the wine industry. And I'm like, hey guys, do you want to try some great gin? Things of flu like this is local in Vietnam. We go to the place that it's made, and suddenly you have these organic connections that are being made just by being in front of people, you know, and like so. You guys being at the airport was one of the easiest, like this is easy, this is convenient. Just grab it. And which leads to my next question. What does distribution really mean in simple terms? Because that's something I think people can come up with a great brand. Like I make films, but like I can make a great film, but if no one watches it, it doesn't exist, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah, yeah, true, true. So yeah, look, there's distribution is extremely important naturally. Um, the more places you are, the more likely you are to sell the product. You got to get as close to the consumer as possible. Um, but I guess there's two parts to distribution. The first is what they call numerical distribution. So that's just how many places do you happen to be in? But there's also a thing called weighted distribution. Weighted distribution is probably more important, particularly when you think about luxury spirits or premium spirit brands. So you'd argue that the airport is one distribution point, but it is heavily weighted. It's a very strong distribution point because, for the reasons you mentioned, it's somewhere where when somebody's leaving the country, that's what they're gonna grab. Um, is it important for me to be in a super local uh Vietnamese restaurant? Probably not. It's nice to be distributed, but it's probably not gonna sell there because that's just not the environment in which you're selling gin or gin and tonic or whatever it is. So, you know, so we we tend to focus on things, things like weighted distribution and how we segment markets in terms of where we should be and where we shouldn't be. Um, for example, now you might see there's a lot of cocktail bars popping up around the region. Cocktail culture is stronger than ever. So that's very much a focus for us, is like being part of uh that cocktail evolution and revolution, I guess you'd say. Um, that's very much important, just not just for for Lady True, but also all of the wonderful brands we represent.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, that's so interesting. And because I work with business people who are, you know, I help them do their media and content, like small business people, a guy who's doing financial, you know, uh accounting or something like that in the US, and he wants to get in front of someone. But the reality is like if he just if you cold call someone, there's a way to get in front of someone and there's a way not to get in front of them. You know, it's like, hey, my name is Jim. I'd like to offer you a service. It's like people are gonna go, yeah, Jim, no, click, you know, and it's just like it's like the way that you get there. And like getting into because one of the things that I've found is like the best thing to really get in with someone is a relationship. And, you know, I want to ask you about that too, because you had talked about your distribution network work, was one of the things that helped you with Lady Ju. But like, I want to ask for other people that are developing things or other wine brands or read, you know, things like that. Like, why is it so hard for new brand to get into a restaurant or bar? Why can that be such a challenge for these new brands?

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah, look, I guess I guess the challenge is um really um you've got to have a reason to be in an outlet. As you can imagine, um, if you think about, let's say the Park Hyde Hotel or let's let's say um any number of cocktail bars, they're being approached continuously um and being offered products um in all sorts of formats and all sorts of ways. So I think importantly, you've got to work out where you want to be and why you want to be there. And if those reasons are uh succinct and clear and make sense, then an outlet will be open to do it. Um if you don't really have a reason to be somewhere, it's a little bit more difficult to justify, or particularly as a venue owner, why why am I gonna put your product in in into my outlet? Why am I gonna do that? Now, if I think about Lady True, for example, um, yeah, sure. I mean, most bars, including a lot of five-star hotels, want to have it because they want they have a lot of guests from overseas and they want to expose them to, you know, local, local, um, local drinks, local um cuisine as much as anything. So it makes sense for us to be that in that environment. If you think about other brands, you know, maybe it's not so relevant. So I think um it really depends on the type of outlets, how you segment an outlet. Let's think about beach clubs. Does a beach club need gin? Probably not so much, but I tell you what, they love to have Aperol spritz and they love to have Kuervo for their margaritas and Contro and those sorts of things. So it's about prioritizing, segmenting the market, understanding what the consumer wants when they go to those environments and offering those sorts of products to those vendors or those owners of outlets.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I was in um I was in, I did my during COVID. One of the things I did, because I was stuck at home as well during that second lawn lockdown, I was like, well, what am I gonna do right now? I got I went back to school and got my MBA. And I was just like, well, let's learn. Let's get some knowledge in. And so I went back to learn. And one of the my favorite things that my professor talked about, he pulled us aside and he's like, let's take that age-old like example of a lemonade stand. Okay, he said, Okay, you got some kids and they're trying to sell lemonade. Well, if you're selling lemonade in Boston in the middle of wintertime, you're not selling a damn thing. Like, there's no one's gonna be outside. Kids are not gonna go outside to sell it, it's just not gonna sell, you know, versus you got, hey, warm hot chocolate or you know, a cup of coffee for you. Hey, I can I can do with that warming up. You know, and it's like you got to think about what people want, but also the why. You know, I love Simon Sinnox start with why. If I'm making a video, you're making a cocktail, you're someone's doing something. Why is that even important? What's the the the thing that you're trying to convey? You know, because what I would say, even though I I I wasn't behind your marketing meetings or they're sitting in the room with you guys, I think that there is something that you're building with your gin that is this beautiful representation of where we live. Like it is a part of the why is to share and show people this is what makes this place special. And these are the herbs, this is a sense, and that's a why. And when people see that, and like you said, the people want it because they want something from Vietnam. And that was my why of buying that versus all of the other alcohol at the airport. I said, I want this. And my why is because it represents where I come from, you know, and that's a cool thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, um, this industry and and the brands that we have within it, there's all sorts of interesting stories behind it. And I think, you know, to your point, when you go back home and you you meet people and you introduce a brand to them and you can talk about it, um, it's it's just a great way to create a social discussion around things, you know. It's a it's a it's a wonderful thing to be able to educate and talk about because it expands not just beyond the making of the product or what it tastes like, but it also, you know, rings true to the history of some of the brand, for example. There's a great story that I love about um Campari and Um and the story of the Garibaldi, which is a classic cocktail in Italy. It's Camparian orange juice, essentially. Yeah. And General Garibaldi was responsible for bringing the north and the south of Italy together. And he decided the best way to do that was to take citrus fruit, which grew really well in the south of Italy, and take Campari, which was a bitters that was made in the north, put them together in a cocktail, and that would unify the country. So even in a political sense, you can imagine in some way like Italy, that those cocktails, that idea, that concept of bringing and unifying a country has been done through through through drinks. So, or through a cocktail specifically in that case. So very, very interesting if you take different facets of you know how drinks have developed and why, et cetera, over time.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

I love that. Well, I want to ask you too, because you see a lot of things coming your way. And like, how do you decide which brands are worth backing or bringing into a market? Like, is there something that you really look for with that?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, look, I think so. I mean, um, I guess that the key point is really that we we look for brands which we think are going to be relevant to the local market. I think first and foremost, there's plenty of category data that we can access that tells you, hey, single malt whiskey is popular in Vietnam now, so we should do single malt whiskey. Um, or tequila is a growing category. I guess the main driver for us when we're looking at that is Vietnam is not necessarily a country when we think about international spirits that trends are created within. Normally trends are followed within this market. So I spend a lot of time looking at what's happening in the US. I spend a lot of time what's happen look looking at what's happening in the UK or certain European markets. Um, and from there you can kind of it's a bit of an indicator in terms of where trends might go. Tequila is a great example. Tequila used to be a nothing category in this country, very, very small, and mostly consumed as a shot and mostly entry-level tequila brands, right? So, but now if you go to a club, you'll see lots of very expensive tequilas, Class Azul, uh, Don Julio, 1800, you know, many, many brands selling in that environment now, which, you know, seven, eight years ago just wasn't there. And that was a trend that correlated directly with what was happening in the US, in Vegas, in uh Los Angeles, in New York, et cetera, et cetera. So um, you know, very much we look at what's happening overseas and how the market is developing here and whether we should back a product that's coming out of that environment.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

It's interesting too how different regions drink differently. You know, I come from like Napa, where man, I grew up on like powerful cabs that like curl your toes up, the tannins that are just rocking your mouth. And like, even though I'm I love more of the uh the Russian River Valley, I'm more of a Pinot guy, but like, man, I grew up on that. So we were having a staff party, and I was like, all right, guys, I got this great wine. I poured some of this wonderful cab for my team, and they were like, good God, what is this? You know? And then I was like, okay, what do you guys want to drink? And my wife was like busted out something that was more like what people would drink in Vietnam, and they were like, Yes, we want this. It's sweet, it's fun, it's like and it's very different. Like people in different places um approach drink their love of drinks differently, you know. And I want to ask you too, because what's something people don't realize about how drinks move across different countries and the like, you know, the likes and dislikes of each different country, you know?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, look, I think um Uh probably some of the things that people don't realize is that uh is that obviously it's a very heavily regulated uh uh market. So in that sense, you know, we've got different tax regimes that operate within different countries. Some countries tax uh um spirits or wine based on how much alcohol's in it. Some countries tax it on the value of the product. So there's various ways in which different countries will tax products, which means that you get huge disparities between, say, what a bottle of Tito's vodka costs in the US versus what a bottle of Tito's vodka costs in, say, Thailand or Vietnam. So that's one of the that's one of the big things that I think a lot of people don't realize. They think, ah, you know, like why is Tito's uh 20 bucks in the US and why is why is it 40 bucks here, sort of thing. Um so I think that's that's one of the key things. Um the other one is just in terms of um, you know, how how products are marketed and how they're consumed. Um, you know, in Vietnam, there was always a very close relationship between Vietnam and Russia. And obviously the French spent a period of time here. Um so cognac was a popular product here for a very, very long time. Uh Russian vodka um has been popular for eons here. Um, where if you go next door to the Philippines, they're drinking Spanish brandy. And if you go to Thailand, they're they're drinking Scotch, Scotch whiskey. So it's probably got a little bit to do with history, you know, colonial pasts and colonial influences that might have happened within within this part of the world. But then also um, you know, how the products are consumed, what they what they've learnt from from those environments. So, you know, you will still see in Hanoi and Haiphong uh uh swathes of consumers drinking vodka by the shot and enjoying a meal, which is uh something you don't really see outside of Russia, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

It's so interesting to me. And it's so interesting to think about how you know these different things that affected different regions, you know. But I want to ask you this because, you know, it's interesting to see how trends happen. And if I've learned anything from new media, digital media, like I don't know how things are gonna trend. Like, I know people that work in this field and really follow trends and try to predict things, and then they're like, I got no idea. But I I just would be curious if you have any insight into like why do certain drinks become popular in one place, but maybe not another, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah, look again, I think uh there's there's a couple of things. First firstly, occasion really matters. And I think you you you alluded to occasion a bit earlier. Trying to sell lemonade in the middle of winter just doesn't work. Um so occasion, occasion matters, and you know, that comes down to climate. Am I sitting by the beach? Am I um in the cold of of Hanoian winter? Um I'm if I'm in if I'm in the cold in winter, I'm probably gonna prefer um vodka or red wine over, say, an icy cold beer. Um so I guess those those those things, occasion matters. Um, if you think specifically about markets like uh Vietnam, which is a an emerging market, um, and you'd say we have a a young, a very young population, we have a million new 18-year-olds every year in Vietnam. So from a drinks industry perspective, we have a million new consumers potentially every year entering the world of drinks. Now, if you look at the mindset of those younger consumers, uh you know, Vietnamese are generally pretty um positive and optimistic. And as a result of that, they spend a lot of time out with their friends, cutting loose, bonding, etc. So if you look at things like beer, obviously massive, massive category here because beer's one of the greatest things when which we bond over. It's one of the great social levelers. Everybody's drinking beer. Doesn't matter if you're an extremely wealthy uh um uh business owner or you're a student, you all drink beer and you're all and it le it levels everybody. And then I I think secondly, the other thing that's important is to think about yeah, the occasion. So I'm out with my friends on Friday night. I'm a young white-collar Vietnamese guy, and I just want to have fun with my mate. So I'm gonna drink Jagermeister and I'm gonna drink various other cocktails and just have a good time. And that's about what matters in that certain occasion and in that moment. So moments, moments and occasions matter, and we think very carefully about that. Like, what is the most common occasion? What is the biggest consumer segment, and how do they, how do they spend their time? What sort of behaviors do they engage in? And that that that drives a lot of our thinking.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

That's really interesting too, because to me, like, I didn't think about that. You know, it's like you got to think about people, and I never thought about beer as a social leveler, but that's really interesting. And it's one of the things that like has been a challenge for the wine industry. Like in California, I talk to all these people in the wine industry now that are and just around the world where wine focused increasingly on uh more of the luxury market. And now that the baby boomers are getting older and the baby boomers were the ones drinking wine. Wine is like, hey, who are we selling to right now? Because they didn't get into some of the other segments, and they're looking at that. There are some really cool people, though, in the Napa Valley that I'm friends with, and one of them is my favorite is Tank Garage. And they're trying to make wine cool. Like, some of the stuff those guys are doing is absolutely wild. They're marketing top-notch. Ed is crushing it with their marketing and the videos that he does, some of the best I've ever seen. But he's making it cool again. He's making it fun. And it's interesting too because you know, you have to be able to figure out how to get into different segments. And I'm always fascinated too by what are the stories a brand tells. Because that's kind of the angle I play. And, you know, because if you're, you know, how do you speak to that guy that is the white-collar guy that wants to drink the Jaeger? How do you talk to the people, the other people, you know? And so it's interesting to see the stories that brands tell to bring people into their network, you know?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jagermeister is a really interesting one for us. It's it's had absolutely explosive growth in Vietnam. And the way that we've made Jagermeister work is to tap into the subculture. And I think you'd uh having lived here for a long time, you would have seen when I first moved here in 2007 or 2008, um, I didn't see young people with tattoos, I didn't see rap artists, I didn't see, I didn't, you know, there's no hip-hop culture, there was no um uh there was kind of none of that street culture here. Um, you'd say today it's very, very prevalent. And one of the things we've done with Jaegermeister is really lean into that, really, really lean into that um street culture, rap, um, street art, that sort of thing, because it creates an emotional connection between the brand and the consumers, yep, particularly young consumers who maybe are a little bit more rebellious or appear more rebellious than you know their parents would have. So um so certainly for a brand like that, we really lean into that. And, you know, that's not necessarily you'd say, it's not innovation per se, but it's probably using the tools that are at our disposal to become, you know, uh relevant to the consumers in that, in that moment. So we do a lot of work around that. We think a lot about that. Um, similarly, uh, we don't necessarily sell um tequila on the basis of buy a bottle and drink shots of that. We focus more around margarita and the occasions attached to that. Sunsets, afternoons, by the pool, that sort of thing. So yeah, we have playbooks for all of the brands, and that's kind of um how we make them, you know, become more relevant to consumers and the occasions that matter then.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

One of the things that's fascinated me, and I want to ask you if you've seen anything similar here, but in the US, there's been this really interesting uh connection between celebrities and alcohol brands. I mean, you get Ryan Reynolds in the Aviation Gym. You get Dwayne Johnson and uh what was his Terramana Tequila. And like they build the brand on it. Like George Clooney had his, and then he, you know, sold it and made a huge amount of money. Do you see that there's associations with different liquor here as well?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah, sure. I mean, uh, well, Terramara, Terramana's a really interesting one. I mean, George Clooney really nailed that with Cas Amigos. That was a billion dollar sale he made there. It was a 20x on his earnings. So it was a really crazy number. But he was kind of the full the forefront of that whole celebrity brand revolution. And um, it's it's a fairly popular way to do things now. There's probably a bit a few too many brands that are doing it. But I think you've it's got to come back to how how genuine, how genuine is it uh in terms of what you are doing, what your intention is. You know, if I if I think about um uh developing a brand with a celebrity, is it the intention to build it for five years and sell out and try and make a bunch of money? You know, consumers and and trade start to see through that and think, well, you're not gonna use me for that. Um, those days are over. So I think that the whole that whole celebrity um brand-driven culture, it'll it'll still remain and it's across cosmetics and various other categories, you'd argue. Um, and it'll always be there. But you've to cut through, you've got to have a real, genuine connection between the celebrity and what you're trying to do. So I think that that that's probably something that's going to fall out of the current situation as it stands now.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

I think that one of the things that I talk to with people all the time when they make videos, they make content or they promote their brands, it's authenticity. And I mean, I know it's like really cliche, everyone talking about authenticity at this point in time, but I think that you hit the like the nail on the head right there with talking about people can see through it. Like if someone's like, I'm starting this liquor brand because of this, it's like, no, what's the story there? Like, if I if I say knock on wood, I'm hoping that someday one of or all of my podcasts get me to Joe Rogan level and I'm crushing it across all fronts. Yes, that's a dream. I'm hoping, right? You I I can set that intention out there. But if I then start my own wine brand and there's a story behind it of, like, yeah, I grew up in the Napa Valley. I'm doing this because this is part of my roots and this is part of mine, there's a story there. And I think that that to me is one of the things that people see. Whether you're selling a cosmetic product or you're selling uh, you know, alcohol, or you're selling um dog products. I mean, like, can is there a reason that you're in in that market, you know? And I want to ask you this too, because like how go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

No, I was gonna say motive matters too, your motive, like why are you doing this? Um, and that links back to authenticity and and and how genuine you are. If your motive is to is to is to build a brand and sell it, it's probably not gonna work. If you're really genuine about what you're trying to do, you're more likely to have success. And in fact, success probably won't matter if you're doing it for the right reasons. Um, success may or may not come, but it may not matter to you so much because you're doing what you're doing because you're motivated to do it because you love it. You're passionate about it, or whatever it is that that drives you.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

I I was talking to some winemakers on my on my barrels and roots podcast that were starting to grow, getting really big. And they were like, we were we were going from this many barrels a year to this many barrels, and it was getting really big, and they're having to bring more people on, and they stopped. And I was like, Well, why did you pull back? He's like, I pulled back because that wasn't why I was in it. He's like, I'm in this to make great wine. And he says, when we started scaling and I started getting bigger, I just noticed that it was harder for me to keep that quality of wine up. It was harder for me to really deliver on that, and it was less fun. He said, So we made our winery smaller. We went smaller while everyone's trying to go bigger. Because for us, it was about just creating something that really had value. And he's like, I'm not looking to sell. I'm here to make great wine. And I said, Well, do you want to exit anytime? He's like, Not really. I just want to make great wine. And I was like, There you go, pan.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah. That that there is uh that that there is a motive and that there is the right intention.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah. How how how how important is the story behind a brand compared to the taste itself?

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Well, you know, taste matters, of course. I mean, your product has to taste good. There's a few things we look at in taste. Firstly, how does how does the product taste naked? You know, is lady true? Are you able to consume the product without burning your mouth? Is it, you know, is it is it something you can taste, you know, by itself, first and foremost? Is it smooth? Um and smooth, you know, my smooth versus somebody who doesn't drink spirits straight smooth is a different thing. Um my palate's probably so hardened I can I can just about drink anything and and find uh and find the the goodness in it. Um I guess that matters, of course. Naturally, your taste profile and how you compare to other brands in your like competitive set, that matters. Um can the brand, yes, of course that matters. You need to be able to tell a story. And you know, uh the one of the reasons we chose uh Lady True or Batu, as she's known, and every Vietnamese kid learns about Lady True in school and her warrior um like ethos and you know her story, which is a a great, uh, a great legend and um worth worth reading. Uh but the reason we chose her is because my time in Vietnam, I experienced um, I guess, um, a certain strength amongst um amongst women here that I hadn't experienced in other Southeast Asian countries. Uh a lot of the a lot of the decision makers we deal with in large um traditional retail stores are female. Um there is there is distinctly a high uh workforce participation here. Outside of Japan, Vietnam has the second largest female workforce participation. I think it's like 76% or something. So, you know, there's always this kind of understanding that that women have a very strong role to play in society here. And um, and that was kind of what drove us towards coming up with the idea of of the brand Lady True, because, you know, it was very much about the fabric of Vietnamese society. Women are so important here. And similarly, um, you know, when we thought about the motive, you know, the the sword and the flower representing femininity and strength. So, you know, it's it's things like that that we that we put time and effort into into considering when we make the brand so it has real meaning, real meaning and and and meaning that's relevant to to our consumers.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

I love that. I absolutely love that. And I want to ask you this too, because I I can't I can't um now this is Hawaiian podcast. What if you open the bottle right now, you're pouring something for yourself or for someone that you'll you care about. What are you pouring right now?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Uh what am I pouring right now? Well, any spirit. I mean Oh, any spirit? Anything. You you pour a drink, any spirit. It totally comes down to occasion. Really, it's bad occasion. So if you and I are sitting by the pool right now, I'd probably be wanting to whip you up a margarita or an Afarel spritz or perhaps some sort of sugary sweet long drink. If we're sitting in my study here, um, it might be a nice McAllen 18-year-old with one piece of ice or something like that in it, and we talk about it, you know, we talk about what we're drinking and why we're drinking it and what the flavor profiles we're looking for in it are and what's the story of McAllen. So it's always a great way to start a conversation in terms of what you're drinking. Um, but very much it's about occasion. Obviously, I represent lots of brands, so I don't necessarily um think one is uh the one my go-to over another. It just really depends on the occasion, mate. I love a whiskey sour as well. So that's like a nice American whiskey, whether that's a wild turkey or a or a tin cup from Colorado in a whiskey sour, mate. I love I love that as well. When I'm playing a game of pool at Dram or something like that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Well well, if someone wanted to start their own brand today, or they're building a brand right now, they have one, what's the first thing they should think about?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

First thing they should think about is why they're getting into it. Um, you know, and and I think uh if you join this industry from not having any experience, it's a very difficult industry to crack. So the first thing is is if you're not coming from this industry and you want to do it, you've got to think about why. The second thing is make sure that you hire people or you have people around you to consult and support you that understand this industry because it is complex. It's not like making uh cosmetics or or FMCG products. It's it's very, very different. It's highly regulated, etc. There is some rules that you need to kind of understand and play within if you want your product to be easily understood by, say, the trade or a bartender. You know, we use bartenders a lot to um endorse our brand. So a bartender needs to know how to use it and understand it. Uh, you've got to be able to pitch it in an elevator, right? You've got to be able to talk about it on the way down in an elevator within 30 seconds and somebody understands what you're talking about. That's super important. I guess the other thing is also um you got you've got to find your white space. You've got to find where the opportunity is that you're chasing. You know, for us when we put together Lady True, it was very evident. I was looking at brands like Four Pillars Gin from Australia. I was looking at Malfi Gin from Italy, you know, and those brands were blowing up in their in their local markets because consumers in those markets really wanted to consume products from that own environment. So Four Pillars Gin in Australia, made with Australian botanicals, Australian consumers were really into that. Yep, rather than drinking a London dry gin from all the way from the UK. So, you know, we saw that natural white space when we put when we put Lady True together when it came to gin in Vietnam and we we lent into that. And I think uh those are the things you need to think about if you're gonna jump into you know making your own brand. And then probably the last point and the most important one is make sure you have enough capital to do it because uh whatever you think it's gonna cost you, it's probably gonna be costing you four times more.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

I believe that, man. I believe that. I think that's something that people don't realize that there is, I was doing research into it and I was like, what would it cost to do this? And I just was like brainstorming things, and I wanted to see on Chat GPT before we had this interview. I was just like trying to do research, and it was like what I thought was the number to start something was way off. And it was like, you need at least this much to get going. And it's not just the money, it's the relationships, it's the know-how. It's like, I think that that's the thing that people don't realize. You can try to do something, but unless you have the relationships and the know-how, it's really hard. It's really hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

I think when you're when you're starting anything small, you've got to understand all facets of um of building a brand and building a company. It's not just, hey, make a brand and make a liquid. It's um it's it's it's your accounting systems, it's your um, it's your licensing. It's you know, there's so much that goes into it. And and you know, when you're starting something small, sometimes you can't afford to have the best of help to do that. So, you know, we we're quite fortunate in that we understand the industry. So, you know, that that's kind of the thing that's probably in our favor, as opposed to say other startup brands in, whether it be in Vietnam or Thailand, who are finding it a bit more difficult because, you know, they just don't have the the distribution clout to make things happen.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Uh I love that example, man. Well, I want to ask you a question. If people want to find out more about you and what you do or the brands that you work with, where should they look?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Um Yeah, sure. So I I mean, obviously I'm on LinkedIn. Um, LinkedIn's obviously probably the main um way that I'm in contact with people. I get many, many proposals through there on new brands all of the time. Um, but at the same time, um, you know, I'm always happy to connect with people and help out in the industry where I can. I was once a young guy in this industry starting out my own business and um, you know, had to go through all the pitfalls of that. And I'm more than happy to always help, particularly young people who are who are trying to develop their career in this industry. And then secondly, um, you know, within one of my various outlets, I'm generally out and about and around. Um, and uh, you know, tribe hospitality is is the group. So, you know, you know, restaurants in there, including Stoker and Jram and Ferkin, which are uh our cocktail bars, um, uh the True Institute, which you know. Um, so there's various places like that I'm generally around, and I'm a pretty accessible person, both to employees and to other industry professionals.