Dirty Like Wine | Isabel Kardon Neuhaus | Barrels & Roots

I sat down with Isabel Neuhaus, a sommelier and wine educator at a two-Michelin-star restaurant in New York City.

Isabel breaks down why wine feels so intimidating to most people and why it absolutely doesn't have to be. 

We talk about how you don't need to know languages, memorize tasting notes, or spend a fortune to belong in the world of wine, you just need curiosity and the right person to share a bottle with.

Isabel walks us through the wines she'd pour for a total beginner, why your local wine shop is the single best investment you can make as a new drinker, and how smell and memory are so deeply connected that a single sip can take you back decades.

What's the one wine experience that completely surprised you, and what made it so memorable?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Oh, because the the market is so saturated with all of these beautiful options. I think it's it's uh it's intimidating because you know, most Americans don't speak two languages, certainly not 10 languages, right? We have 10 or 12 languages present on our wine list at the modern. It's it's extremely scary. It makes you feel like you don't know enough, like you don't belong, like you're unworthy, right? I hear all these things all the time. In fact, my husband and I laugh because when I'll meet someone and they'll ask what I do, I say, Oh, I'm a similar, I work in wine. They say, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't know anything about wine. What are you sorry for? Don't apologize. I I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't know how to do that thing, you know? Like, yeah, I am yet to find another industry in which people apologize for not knowing anything. And it's so weird to me, as if wine is like a measure of how cultured you are or a measure of how intellectual or well-traveled you are. It's just not. And it doesn't have to be and it shouldn't be. And I like to think I'm part of a growing network of young wine professionals who are eradicating that mentality that you don't need to know everything in order to be able to enjoy wine. You don't need to know languages, you don't need to be well-traveled or well-studied. It's unnecessary in order to be a part of this beautiful community.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Well, welcome everybody back to the Barrels and Roots podcast. We are already having a very weird and fun conversation here. And uh want to welcome you all. I have an awesome guest with me today, which like to tell people who you are and what you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yes, my name is Isabel Newhouse. I'm a sommelier wine writer and educator based in New York City.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Awesome. How did you find the wonderful world of wine?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

I grew up in a wine-loving home. That's just I uh my mom would open a bottle of wine on Monday, and it was she'd have a glass every night of the week, just one, and it was most of the time Sauvignon Blanc or Alberinho. And by the time I got to high school, I could help myself to a glass if I wanted one, sort of European style. And uh I got to college, I went to NYU here in New York, and I needed a part-time job. So I started working in a restaurant and I loved it. Uh I worked at Gotham Bar and Grill on 12th Street. They were uh, they had a Michelin star at the time. They were 30 years old. It was kind of an iconic spot. And uh I fell in love with service and hospitality and fine dining and the choreography of it all. You asked if I had ever been an actor. I am absolutely a retired theater kid, and so I'm not the first retired theater kid to find a home in New York restaurants, that's for sure. Um, but I loved it. And then wine felt like a really natural avenue for me to stay kind of intellectually engaged with service.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Right. I wanted to ask you this because as you found the world of wine, was it easy or did you ever feel intimidated by it at times? Because I I know that so many people that I talk to have these feelings of like it's so intimidating, not because the people are intimidating, but but just there's so much to learn. You know, there's yes. Go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, there is so much to learn. I found that I was really young. Um so of course it was intimidating because no one looked like me. Let's say I got into the world of wine, I was 20 or 21 years old, and that's very young to be in any industry, right? Especially one where that requires a 21-year-old kind of minimum cap. But um it was it was intimidating for that reason. Um that I was the youngest person in the room for a long time. And and the the world of wine is so global now, it's much more global than it was before I got into it. So, you know, you walk into a wine shop, it's no longer just France and California, like I hear that's how it was in the 80s. Uh, but there's there's a whole world out there, which means there's more grapes, there's more languages represented, there's more regions you've never heard of, there's more styles and and colors that didn't exist before, um, which is wonderful for wine drinkers that we have more access to more options. That's wonderful, but that is also extremely intimidating for consumers, of course.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Right. Well, it's interesting too because um how do you think people can find their way into wine, even if they feel intimidated? How can they make wine fun for themselves?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

My gosh, wine is so fun and it makes me sad that that's even a challenge. That's that's that's rule number one is that wine is fun. Um, and I, as I was thinking about like, what do I really want uh the thesis? Like, what do I want people to go home with when they hear this podcast? And I decided that what I wanted was for people to understand that you don't need to know a lot about wine in order to be able to enjoy it. You can find your way into the world of wine through pleasure, and that's enough. It doesn't need to be intellectual, though I do think you experience more pleasure when you know a little bit more about how your wine was made or where it comes from, but it's not necessary. What is necessary is curiosity. What's necessary is excitement and joy and people to share it with. And I think that's how more people need to be finding their way into wine. It's it's less about the textbooks, it's less about the maps and the memorization and the flashcards. It's unnecessary for 99 out of 100 people.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, right? It's so true. And I think the best thing for most people is to just get out there and enjoy wine. Like it's to open a bottle and sit there and go, you know what? This is gonna be delicious. I'm gonna have some fun and I'm gonna try to see what this tastes like and what it goes with, you know. And so, but the most important thing for me is who I'm gonna drink it with, you know, is who can I absolutely enjoy this bottle of wine with? Because to me, for me, the best wine experiences I've had have been when I've been drinking with someone I care about, with someone that I like and with someone who I can have a great conversation with, you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah. Yeah. Wine is bottled in 750 milliliters for a reason. It's the perfect size for two.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Right?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

That's not a coincidence. That's on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

100%. You know, and I think that that's something that I think is that most people lose sight of. Like, I'm gonna go and try to learn about this by myself. And like when I was telling my friends they wanted to learn more about wine, I said, well, sign up to a class with a friend. Go tasting with a friend, go tasting with someone that you're gonna have an absolutely hilarious time with, you know, because that's the person that you want. You know, I went tasting with one of my friends in college, and when the person tasted it, like was like, there's hints of tobacco. My friend's like, there's tobacco in this? Like, I just quit smoking, man. You didn't tell me there's tobacco, and everyone's like rolling in laughter, and they're like, No, no, no. It's just it tastes of tobacco. And he's like, Well, I don't know about you, but like, and he just was saying stupid stuff the whole time. I can't even make uh I can't even make examples that are as funny as what he was saying. But like, it was wild and it was fun because I was with that guy. And you know, I think that you've got to find your your wine wingman or or wingwoman and have a great time with that person, you know?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, yeah. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

If you were to explain to an extreme beginner what does a sommelier do, how would you explain it?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yes. Well, I a Somalier, I think, by definition, sells wine at a restaurant, I think is the very simple way to describe it. I'll say I'm a sommelier at a two Michelin star restaurant in Midtown Manhattan called the modern, um, where we have 3,500 wines by the bottle, we have 40 wines by the glass, we have a huge team, a massive seller. Um and so a lot of what I do is yes, of course, selling wine, but I also do a ton of education. I do trainings, I teach all of our servers about how to talk about the wines by the glass, how to pour, how to sell, what to pair. Um, I partner with the chef for our wine pairings. I uh, you know, explore the whole world of wine through an eight-course kind of progression of wines in our dining room with our tasting menu. Um, and then table aside, it's it's sales, of course, at the end of the day, yes, but it's storytelling and it's picture painting and it's uh relationship building.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I love that. I love that. And I think that is it. You know, it's like, what are you doing? Yeah, I I love the storytelling. I love the storytelling when I just come in and people go, you know, tell me the experiences they've had with a wine. And I hear about, you know, these different stories are so powerful because they humanize it. They take something that was just from this place and give it an anchor, give it a root, you know? And you talk a lot about storytelling and wine. Like, why is wine more than just taste?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Well, I like the example you just gave, Sean, of it tastes like tobacco. No one cares. Like, no one, no one is going to come in and sit at a restaurant and say, I want a wine that tastes like tobacco. It's never happened. Or I had a wine that tasted like tobacco once. Do you have something like that? No one has ever said that. In fact, people remember, oh, last time I was here, you sold me a glass of wine where the the dog at the winery's name is Bobo. People remember like the random thing you don't even remember telling them, the random minutiae, the detail, the name of the dog. And and I think that's what's powerful is people have connections to people and to reality and to stories as opposed to tasting notes like tobacco, which are totally subjective. And and I don't know. Some sometimes they're true, sometimes they're impactful, but I think more often than not, it's it's the name of the dog at the winery that people will remember.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

I was at another place with that same friend, great guy, off the wall, like, and said some crazy stuff. And we were like, once we went up to this place, and the guy's like, Well, can I ask? This psalm was like there at this restaurant. And it was in the Napa Valley, and I grew up in the Napa Valley, and we lucky place to grow up. But we went to this one of the restaurants and the psalm came up, and my friend, the guy's like, Well, what would you like to drink tonight? And my friend's like, hmm, I don't know, what do you have? And the psalm's like, well, tell me about what you're looking to drink tonight. He says, My friend in this deadpan face said, I want something as dirty as my ex-girlfriend. Psalm in one second just sat there and he said, I've got a Barolo that you would love. And it was just a great psalm. I was like, Oh, the psalm, just like his face, just for one second, was just like, Do I react? But it was awesome because he's like, I got a wine for that. I've got a wine for that. And I like I was cracking up because my friend he got the wine, and he says, This is like my ex right now. And I was just rolling in laughter about the whole experience because it's like never once was the guy trying to sit there, like, these are the hints, these are the tastes. The person came in, was where they were at, said this off-the-wall thing. And I think the funniest part about it was that the psalm deadpan just said, I've got that wine. And he was, I got that wine. And I was just like, God, that's hilarious, man.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

So I I um I have a friend who's a Sommelier and he sold the wine, and there were two vintages of it available. And the guest said something like, Oh, well, which vintage should we drink, the 20 or the 21? And without using any words, and maybe this is a horrible story to tell on a podcast because this is about the visual right now, but he goes, Well, do you want something that feels like this? Or something that feels like this?

SPEAKER_02 11:51

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

That's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

For those who aren't watching, I like lifted my hands up in like a rainbow, or then I like flexed down. It's because sometimes, right, the feelings are beyond words. Like dirty like my ex-girlfriend, you know. Do you want flexing muscles or do you want soft rainbow?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Right? It's what would you recommend if someone came in and asked for something dirty like my ex-girlfriend?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Dirty like my ex-girlfriend? I'd bring them to like the Languedoc. I'd bring them to like a southern French, hearty, rustic, savory, dirty blend from a natural producer.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

I hear you. I hear you. And I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

But Barola's a good call too. Barolla's good call.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

That's awesome. That's awesome. I either way, that's awesome. Um, what's one thing people completely misunderstand about French rant like fancy restaurants and wine culture?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

That's such an interesting question. I think people are often, I mean, extremely intimidated by wine, yes, but also intimidated by spaces that look fancy. Um we're you know, we're in Midtown, we have two Michelin stars, we have white tablecloths, we have servers and suits and you know, back waiters in vests. It's like the whole, the whole song and dance of it. And I think people enter that room and become very serious. Like we can't laugh too hard, we can't goof around. This is a serious dining experience. And what I would love is if more people had more fun. Like we talked about wine should be fun, wine should not be intimidating. I think going out to dinner should be fun. Going out to dinner should not be intimidating. Um, that's what I think people misunderstand.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

I think that one of the things that I thought that was hilarious about fine dining. I worked at a bunch of fine dining restaurants. Uh and one of the challenges that I had was that I had a hard time keeping the back of house energy and the front of house energy like separate. Because to me, dude, the back of house was ruckus. Like, chef was, you know, every all of these different chefs were just hilarious, busting up, so much swearing, so much like bickering, yelling, teasing each other. Dude, it was one of the most wild experiences I've ever had. And then suddenly that you cross that door and it's like, here's your food, sir. And like, and it's like, if they only they understood the chaos that was going on back up how before they got their food, I think that they would enjoy it more because it's like fine dining doesn't have to be stuffy. It doesn't have to be uptight, it can be rock and roll. Like, I would love if more restaurants brought the rock and roll into fine dining. Um, why do certain wines make people emotional or remind them of memories or experiences?

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Wait, can we go back to the last topic before we? Please do, please do. Okay, okay. Well, we we talk a lot in the restaurant about something called swan theory. Are you familiar with this?

SPEAKER_01 14:48

No, talk to me about this.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Is that a swan you see like gliding on top of the pond, right? And it's like perfectly smooth and hardly makes a wake, but underneath the water, the swan's feet are going crazy and you can't see them, and they don't even make a ripple in the water. So we think about like, okay, the back of house is the engine, right? Is the the flippers underneath the water that no one has to see. And we, the servers, are there to be like the beautiful swans presenting everything as if everything is peaceful, even though we know there's like crazy flippers going on under the water. Um, and so there's yes, maybe it would be more fun for people to get a peek behind the curtain and see what's going on under the surface. But I also think part of the magic is that they don't, that they sit down and like something beautiful just appears. And and there's something magical about like kind of keeping some ignorance, kind of not wanting to know what's going on behind the scenes. I don't want to know how the sausage gets made. I just want to know that it tastes good. You know what I mean? Like maybe it's not as beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah. Well, that's interesting too. I never thought about that way, but that is actually kind of awesome. Um, because, you know, it's like I think that it's like magic, you know, like when you see a magic show, you don't want to see how the magic is trick is done. You just want to magically appear in front of you. But I still think that, you know, we have to remember that magic is fun. And restaurants, even if they're fine dining, should be fun as well. You know, have this magical surprise that comes out in front of you. But like, I want to ask you this like, why do certain wines make people emotional and remind them of memories and experiences? Because I've got, like, I had this one glass that I had and I drank it and I was like, Christmas. And I was just like, why is that Christmas? And I was like, there were hints of cinnamon in it. It it reminded me of this cinnamony flavor. And I don't know what else, but it just had that spice to it. And I was just like, I remember it of like some type of apple cider or from a Christmas at some time. And it took me back. How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Uh, I mean, it's about like your retro nasal memory, which is uh like uh that's the science of it. It's like the same reason, you know, people have emotional connections to like a family recipe, right? It it brings you back, it feels nostalgic, it feels emotional, you feel connected to it. Um and that's that's the power of wine. What I think is so great about wine, and not to hate on cocktails or spirits or beer, but that I think is the emotional power that grapes have that other fermented or or distilled products simply don't have. Um, that grapes are so uh transparent, like they really translate a time and a place incredibly effectively and beautifully and deliciously directly to you. And that's why you don't hear about those kinds of experiences with tequila or with beer or with cider. Um, it's just wine has that power. It's so special.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Right? It's so special. Now, you've worked hard to make wine feel more accessible. Why do you think wine became so intimidating in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Oh, because the the market is so saturated with all of these beautiful options. I think it's it's uh it's intimidating because you know, most Americans don't speak two languages, certainly not 10 languages, right? We have 10 or 12 languages present on our wine list at the modern. It's it's extremely scary. It makes you feel like you don't know enough, like you don't belong, like you're unworthy, right? I hear all these things all the time. In fact, my husband and I laugh because when I'll meet someone and they'll ask what I do, I say, Oh, I'm a similar, I work in wine. They say, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't know anything about wine. What are you sorry for? Right. You apologize? I I don't know what you do for a living, but I don't know how to do that thing, you know? Like, yeah, I am yet to find another industry in which people apologize for not knowing anything. And it's so weird to me, as if wine is like a measure of how cultured you are or a measure of how intellectual or well-traveled you are. It's just not. And it doesn't have to be and it shouldn't be. And I like to think I'm part of a growing network of young wine professionals who are eradicating that mentality that you don't need to know everything in order to be able to enjoy wine. You don't need to know languages, you don't need to be well traveled or well-studied, it's unnecessary in order to be a part of this beautiful community.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I think that one of the things that I love, there's a lot of things I love right there. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is that just show up. Just show up, just be there. And the reality is that most people are gonna be happier there. You know, I um living in in Southeast Asia, I live part of the uh of the year in Vietnam, part of the year in the US. And when I'm in Vietnam, um, one of the things that I find is that you don't have to be fancy or know certain things to go and enjoy Vietnamese food. You just show up. There is one restaurant down this alleyway over here near my house that it should be have a Michelin star. She her food, her duck noodle soup, is so ridiculously good that it is the best thing I've ever eaten in my life. Hands down. And I have eaten at some of the finest restaurants in different places. This food at this little place is so good. And you don't need anything, you just need to get there and have it and sit there and go, that's amazing. I was talking about all the time, and my my team, it was like my couple of my timbers, my members on my team were like, Mr. Sean, what are you talking about? That this like it can't be that good. And they went there and they're like, that was great. And I said, now would you know how great it was if you hadn't have gone there and tried it? And they said, no. And I think one of the things though, too, is like, I think it's easy for us to have one experience, but then to go back again and again and again, it gets challenging, you know. And I think you have to be willing to make those first steps, go beyond your intimidation points, and then keep showing up, you know? And I think that with wine, sometimes the barrier to entry can be challenging because everyone thinks that it has to be expensive. And here's my question for you because like, what's the the difference between drinking expensive wine and actually understanding or enjoying it? Like, does your wine have to be expensive for you to show up and be doing wine right?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

It's such a good question. I tell people all the time that the most important money you'll spend is the difference between a $10 bottle and a $20 bottle. I think if all you have is $10, I mean, here in the States, I don't know how the the wine retail market is in Vietnam, but here in the States, if you only have $10, you should drink beer. If you have $20, you can drink an okay bottle of wine. Um and by okay, I mean, you know, made by people and not machines. I mean has some kind of personality or sense of place. Interesting, tasty, delicious. Yeah. Will it be profound? Maybe not, but who cares? Not every bottle should or could be profound, whatever. Um, but so I think $20 is where the conversation needs to start for people purchasing wine retail in New York or in America.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

No, it's great. And that's a great reference point. It's a great like metric, you know, because there is something to be said for quality. I have had some cheap wines that I was like, well, it's still gonna be wine. And I opened the bottle and I was like, this is pure rubbing alcohol. Like, why would anyone want to drink this? It tastes like rubbing alcohol with like horrible grape flavor. And then I've also had some mid-range wines that are like, that was fantastic and delicious. But there's this threshold kind of that you have to get across to have something that is worth putting your time into. But like, how does someone know? How do you know if it's worth putting your time into? You know, where do you go look? What references are helpful, you know?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yeah. I I think my my greatest advice would be to buy your wine at a wine shop, not at a liquor store. I think making sure that the selection has been curated by someone who knows what they're talking about, as opposed to, you know, like Bob's liquor mart on the corner that sells Tito's by the palette, like their job at the liquor store is not to curate a beautiful wine selection, it's to make money. And that's fine. And so they sell grocery store bottom shelf wines at liquor stores. And that's okay for some people, wonderful. But if you're trying to have a delicious experience for $20, then the the selection needs to be curated by someone who knows how to do that. And I think the best way to ensure that is by going to your local wine shop and developing a relationship, talking to the person, you know, starting a profile in their system so that they'll keep track of what you had last time and then what to recommend for next time. Like that's really the best, the best advice I could give anyone is to go to a wine shop instead of a liquor store.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

I was interesting thing that I've been doing is trying to figure out my, my, my palate because I couldn't figure it out. You know, like I started what I started doing was kind of tracking what wines I liked and keeping kind of a list. And then I was throwing that into to Chat GPT and going, this is what I love. This is what I hate. And, you know, it's I finally realized there's certain wines that I'm like, this is so good. But then there was stuff that I was just like, this is in no way I've I realized that I don't like things that are super bready, super yeasty. And that's just something that doesn't sit with me. But I like, I mean, I love Pinot. Uh, I love certain burgundies, uh, you know, wines from Burgundy. I I love Chardonnays that are not super oaky. And then when I started putting those things in, and then I said, okay, what should I try to kind of that's close to this, but then can expand it? And then I started going and finding these wines that I would have never known, but that were, you know, wines that were in the direction of what my palate enjoys, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Totally. AI is an incredible tool. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want people to be replacing their sommelier or replacing their wine shop professional with AI. But I think using it for curiosity, like these are the things I've loved. What should my next step be? I think is such a perfect use of this technology. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

100%. But do you think that with wine and people need to get out and try it? Do you think that there's a good starting point? Like certain wines, if you were to say, all right, these three wines are wines that people should start off with. You're gonna pour three glasses of wine for a beginner right now, someone who's just getting in the door. What three varietals or three wines are you pouring for this person who's just getting going?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

That's such a good question. I love it. And I am gonna say it's gonna be three white wines, and then it's gonna be a second flight of three red wines.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Oh, do tell, because this is what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

It can't just be three. Because if it's three, then it needs to be. If it's three, it needs to be sparkling white red, and then we can hardly get any attention because you don't have enough data.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Amen to that.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Um, but if you have three, three white wines, then you can collect data. I think what's so important is for people to discover what they like and what they don't like, and then figure out the words that they can use to articulate it. And it's it's rarely going to be, oh, I like wines that smell like lemon. I think that's much less effective than I like light-bodied wines, I like mineral-driven styles of wine, I really love Italian white wine. Right. We can get a little bit more specific, but being like, oh, I like lemony white wines is kind of useless because all white wines have have some hint of lemon-ish. So what I would do is German Riesling, German Riesling, Sancerre, Sauvignon Blanc from the Loire Valley. Um, and then I would do California.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Go back and say that again. I don't know why. When you made a hand gesture, it made a thumbs down image on screen. A German Riesling.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

German Riesling, and it gave me a thumbs down image.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

It gave you a thumbs down. I don't know how why it did that. That's crazy. God damn it, Riverside. Screw you. All right. German Riesling.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yes, it's for German Riesling. Um, yes, German Riesling that has residual sugar, like something decidedly off-dry. Sans air, something very dry, very fresh, very citrusy. And then California Chardonnay, something like overtly oaked.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

And I would have those three be kind of the benchmarks for styles for white.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Nice. All right. Where are we going with your reds?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

For red wine, it's harder. Because I think two of them, one has to be Pinot Noir and one has to be Cabernet. And I think one has to be Italian.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

So I think it would be Burgundy, Pinot Noir from France. I think it would be Cabernet, let's say, from Napa. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And then I think I would do either Nebbiolo from Piedmont or Sangiovese from Tuscany. And I would use those as as the barometers for light, medium, and high tannin, which I think is really important for people when talking about red wine. Um, but also stylistic differences. I think red wines even more so than white wines are so um so communicative of uh climate. Sorry, I just fully lost my train of thought. So communicative of their climate. So um being able to kind of pinpoint, okay, well, Burgundy is colder, Napa is sunnier, Piedmont is way up in the mountains, and here's how all of these things affect it. I think red wines are really um good at communicating those things. So we could use that as a barometer. But then I would like to do another flight of sparkling wines and another flight of of fortified wines, and we could do port and Madeira and Sherry. That could be fun.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Oh, I like that. Oh, geez. You got me. You're speaking my language right now. I think that that sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

You can't pick just three.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Right. You can't. It is ridiculous. And I think that's one of the that's the beauty of tasting. And I think that's you're the first person who's seen the fault in that question because the question it has this assumption that you can get this understanding of wine with three glasses. And the reality is, is like you can have one glass of white and like have no reference point as to what other things exist, you know. And I mean, but most of the time people do pick a sparkling, a white, and a red, you know? And I think that was kind of the the direction I head with that. But at the same time, what if they get the wrong white? And that person's like, yeah, I don't like white wines. I had that with white wines where I had early white wine experience. I had this super buttery Chardonnay, and I didn't like it so much. And not that it and it was just something that wasn't my my style. But then I had years later a Sauvignon Blanc, and I was just like, ooh, I really enjoyed that. You know, it was a whole different experience for me. And I don't know why. I think it was a more balanced wine. I think that the shard that I had was just not a great shard. And like, but my point being, it's hard if you only get a single reference point. You might not like it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Well, I think unfortunately, people, because the barrier of entry is so high for bottles of wine, if you have one bad experience with California Chardonnay, you're not gonna pay $30, $40 for another bottle of California Chardonnay to give it a second chance. It's not worth it to most consumers. It's not what's gonna happen. And so the first impression is so important. And unfortunately, the first impression for so many wine drinkers is like whatever your parents drank when you were a teenager, or whatever you could get your hands on when you were in college, or, you know, whatever someone poured you one time, and then that's your impression for the rest of your life. So that's where we get people who write off full categories, full beautiful, diverse, bountiful categories like California Chardonnay. There's a huge range. It's an incredibly diverse category of wine. And there are so many people who say ABC, anything but shard.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Right, right. I you're you're 100% right. And it's interesting too because we're quick to make judgment. But I think you're you're you hit the nail on the head with what people, if they don't go to a place where they can have a great taste and experience. And this is why I love going to wineries where you can taste a lot of different wines, because you go in there and you go, I don't like this. But then you try more of it and you're like, well, actually, maybe I do. Maybe, maybe that one. Oh, I tried this one. And these are both types of roses, but that rose is amazing, and this one's okay. And then I like to ask the person in front of me, either the psalm or the person that's just the wine educator at that moment, why am I liking this one? What is it about this wine that is appealing to me? Could you have any reasons? And then that's where they start describing things, and that hints of tobacco actually creates a reference point for me that makes some type of sense, you know? I want to ask you this, because you connect wine, art, language, and culture. Why do you think humans care so much about sharing food and drink together?

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Because I think there are like fundamental human truths. And I think some of them are net positive and some of them are net negative, and you could argue. But I think like an example is religion, right? For whatever reason, humans since the beginning of time have wanted something to believe in. And so we've found religion. Okay, great. Like the human race has kind of decided that. I think sharing meals is another one of those human truths. Since the beginning of time, that's what humans have wanted to do gather and nourish and nurture one another. Uh, and I think wine is a beautiful symbol of that. Wine is a fundamental human truth too. It's it's as old as anything. And and people will do it and people will gather and it builds community, it builds connection, it builds relationships. Um and I think it's important. And as we see these headlines talking about how Gen Z isn't drinking anymore, which I think is a total farce. I don't think it's true at all. I mean, I'll just open my eyes here in New York. Everyone is drinking alcohol. Like, come on, let's just look at the reality of it. But um, there is just no way that a generation cutting back on drinking is going to end this industry. This industry is old and it is tradition and it is culture and it is a fundamental human truth. And no drinking trend is going to put a stop to it. It's just not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

The um if you go back and look at different things, um movies. If we go back before movies, there were radio shows. If you go back before radio shows, there were plays. You go back before plays, and you get, you know, storytellers that were like it from ancient times. Like we're getting ready to have the release of um Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, which is a was a 3,000-plus year-old, maybe older story that was originally an oral tradition that storytellers would learn and pass down from person to person before it was suddenly transcribed later on after that said story had been passed on already for like 500 or so years before they wrote it down. Um, you know, things change. We have changing medium, you know, but movies are not dead. You know, it's changing form. So we have a different way we consume storytelling, but storytelling will always be there. And wine is one of the original forms of storytelling, you know? You have you have this old, old, old tradition that from all over the world. I I love um I flew from Vietnam over the Middle East, over Europe to the to the east coast of the US. And when I was flying over the Middle East, I was looking down and I would see these different cities, Muscat. I was like, well, that's where that grape came from, you know? And we were flying to all of these other different places. I flew over Bordeaux and I was like, that is Bordeaux. Like, like, oh my goodness. And you just see these places for thousands of years, humans have been taking these little grapes and making a drink that helped them gain perspective on life, love, the world, art, and everything around them. It was a beautiful thing. I'm gonna actually start a segment on this podcast. I do talking head videos on all my podcasts that are just like I sit here and I reflect on something. And I have a lot of podcasts. I have a growing money, which is about money. I have a like be better in life, the Sean Trey show, and I have my full battery media, which is about content. But I was sitting there like thinking, what can I do on this podcast? You know, because I'm not a psalm. I don't know all about wine. But I finally realized what it was that I'm gonna have a slowing down with Sean. That I'm gonna sit down, pour a glass, talk about what I experience in that glass every week. I'll have a glass on the video of the podcast, and then talk about a philosophy of life. Talk about something that came up that week. Talk about, and the whole segment is called Slowing Down with Sean. And, you know, and that is just one of the things I love about wine is that every time I've never had a glass of wine and rushed. I've never had a glass of wine and be like, I need to get going to my next thing. I those bottles will flow, those glasses will flow quickly, those bottles will flow quickly, but never rushed. Like they are is just this depth of experience that I think wine brings when we partake of it and are around the people that we care about.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Yes. We see now this sort of rise in optimization culture that everyone is wearing their Apple Watch, their whoop, they're tracking their sleep, they're tracking their steps. And I'm sort of coming to understand like life actually isn't about optimization. Yeah, but life can be about pleasure and those two things can coexist. And in fact, slowing down is one of the best things that you can do to optimize creativity and thoughtfulness and patience. Like we don't need to be tracking our steps and our sleep. We can just be in tune, we can be present. And and wine is such a gift that allows us to be present. I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I love it. At the end of the day, what do you think wine is really supposed to help people experience? Is it status, flavor, connection, storytelling, or something deeper? We're already touching on it.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

It's it's all the above. It's I I think it's definitely not flavor. I think we can take that out of the out of the multiple choice, but um connection, as we said, you know, wine is is bottled in 750 mils because it's designed to be shared, right? That's not a single serving and that's on purpose. Um absolutely connection storytelling being transported somewhere you've never been. Um giving you the desire to see that place or making you feel like you're already there, or making you feel like you like like something is being translated through that glass of wine. Um Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Of course, and then and then um there's no wrong way to consume. So if you're consuming wine because you want to be associated with the luxury status, by all means, go for it. I don't think that's necessarily wrong. That's not necessarily how I sell wine. That's not how I write about wine or view the world of wine, but I make this connection all the time on my Substack and in person when I teach. But, you know, I think a lot of really expensive wines are like a luxury handbag with a big logo on it. Like sure, maybe the quality is great. Maybe the leather is wonderful, maybe it is handmade in Italy, but it's probably not the highest quality bag you can get for the money. There's probably some logoless kind of up-and-coming designer somewhere who would make you a higher quality bag for less money, but consumers value logos. And that's not wrong. That's just what you're allowed to value as a consumer. And so if you want to value status and luxury and glamour and and name recognition, brand recognition in your wine, of course, by all means, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I um I got to make um a couple years ago. My wife wanted a fancy bag and bag that I didn't have the money for. And I felt bad a little bit because she wanted something nice. And I said, But I have a way to do something. And I I learned, and so I went and found a leather maker in my town who made amazing bags, and he actually was trained by the main uh bag crafts main maker at MS. And so he helped me create a Tiffany bag for my wife. I handmade a Tiffany bag for my wife. And when I did that and I saw what was put into it, it was amazing. And one of the things that I saw him do is he broke down some of these fancy bags that people see, and he's like, this is what's inside. And it wasn't that great for some of them. There were some that were, and then when I saw what true craftsmanship was, it was amazing, you know? But at the end of the day, what was important was the heart of what was going in. And you can only find out that heart, just like if you only take apart a bag, you can only find out that heart of something by going deeper. And that's where I think wine is an analogy for life. As we explore bottles of wine, it's exploring experiences in our own lives. It's exploring things and, you know, parts of ourselves. There are things that we're gonna find out we don't like. I remember this one summer, my mom got me into a bunch of sports. And I learned that summer that I hated a bunch of different sports. I'm not a big fan of tennis. I don't like standing out in the sun. Golf and me are a no-go. It is just not my thing. But I found out that I'm really good at martial arts. I found out that I loved indoor sports. I loved volleyball. I loved badminton. And learning what I loved and what I disliked was just all the journey. And sometimes you had to sit there through a bad glass of wine. Sometimes you had to sit there and go, this is not what I'm liking to get to the next class. But can you be present in that experience, you know?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Where can people go to find out more about you and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yes. Um, I write about wine on Substack. My newsletter is called Wine Ideas. Um you can read my writing there. And what it really is is a landing page for all of my other wine consulting services. So I'll curate a case of wine and ship it directly to you based on your preferences, your budget, your tastes, your needs, what have you. Um, I do a lot of private events. I do birthday parties, bachelorettes, rooftop parties, house swarmings, all that. And I do corporate groups. So, like teaching the interns how to take a client out and how to look at a wine list and how to be comfortable walking into a wine shop or with a wine list in your hands. Um, you can find me by visiting me at the Modern on 53rd Street in Midtown Manhattan. Um, and you can follow me on Instagram at IsabelCardon Newhouse.