What Makes Wineries Memorable | Brigid Harris | Barrels and Roots

I sat down with Brigid Harris, co-owner of Bedarra Vineyards in Sonoma County, to talk about what really makes wine and the businesses behind it memorable. From starting a hobby vineyard with her husband to building a wine brand rooted in their honeymoon, their family, and even the memory of their dog Ellie, Brigid reminded me that great wine is often connected to a much bigger story.

We talked about why wine tasting should feel approachable instead of intimidating, how wineries can create experiences that bring people together, and why relationships are one of the most valuable assets a winery can build. Brigid also shared lessons from her experience working with major brands like Gap and Disney, including the importance of balancing hospitality with data, sales, marketing, and strong business systems.

What I kept coming back to was simple: wine is meant to be shared. The bottle matters, but the people, places, stories, and memories surrounding it are what make the experience stick.

When you remember a great bottle of wine, do you remember the taste or the people and story behind it?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's sort of knowing your audience. That's always what I say a lot. Is um I think people are different. There's certain people who just want to completely geek out on wine. Um, there's certain people who are new to wine and they just want more of a fun experience. So I think um that's one of the things that I always would tell my team is sort of, you know, know your audience, you know, get to know people at the beginning of a tasting and better understand what they're looking for. Um and I think that just the oversaturation of how complicated it is and how bougie it is and how much, how just the complication of it, I just think that's that's not the right way to go about it. Um I mean, certainly for certain people who who want to better understand the whole process of winemaking from the vineyard management all the way through the barrel regimen to the, you know, great, that's fine. But I think for for the majority of people, let's let's keep it fun and approachable uh versus complicated.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Welcome everybody back to the Barrels and Roots uh podcast. I'm your host, Sean Trace, and I have an awesome guest with me today. Can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Sure. Um great to be here. Thank you for this. Um my name is Bridget Harris. I'm the co-owner of Bedara Vineyards. We are located on Chalk Hill Road in Alexander Valley, Sonoma County. And um, yeah, so we've been doing this since um 06. And uh I've been in the industry myself as well since uh 09. Um, and then when I say industry, I mean wine industry. And uh prior to that in a few other industries. So um, so yeah, this is my my full-time gig right now and uh loving representing my own winery.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

That's awesome. How did you get started down this path? What was it that pulled you down the path of wine?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

My gosh, how much time do you have? Um, well, we moved up here, what can I say up here into the uh Bay Area in 2001 and um just literally started going to wine country as tasters, um, professional tasters, meaning we were going almost every weekend up to wine country and uh and just learning everything about wine. And that's one of the things that I tell people about doing tastings is that's where you learn a ton about wine and winemaking and everything that's so magical about it. But um, we got married up here in uh Geyserville, and then we decided literally the morning after our wedding that, hey, let's get a little hobby vineyard and let's let's see if we could actually do this. Um so we uh we both had full-time jobs at the time, but um in 06 is when we uh purchased a a house and vineyard in Healdsburg. Um we were living in San Rafael at the time, and uh that just sort of got things rolling. And like everybody else in this in this industry, um we went fast and furious and um you know a little over our skis from time to time, and um, but learned a ton. And um again, 20 years later, still loving it.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

That's awesome. That's really awesome. It's awesome too because you know, your heart was in it. And I'm curious because to me, you know, I created this podcast. I said a little bit about this before we started the podcast, like why I created this. I created this podcast because I firmly believe in the stories of the people. I love the wine. I mean, who doesn't love the wine? But you know, when you have um wine that has stories behind it, stories, you know, I was looking at your website and it made me cry a little bit. Ellie's reserve. You know, you have um you have a wine that's dedicated to your sweet pop. And Ellie's adorable looking, she's so adorable looking. And I was just like, what a bet, no, what better way to honor some sweet little soul than that, you know? Talk to me about this, you know?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, we're all about um I don't, you know, the storytelling. And um, again, like we just said, sort of the passion behind everything. And I mean, our our name, Bedara, it comes from our honeymoon spot in Australia. So uh when we started our wine brand, we were like, what do we call ourselves? And Harris is our last name. We didn't think that that was very exciting, Harris Family Vineyard. So came up with Bedara and um and it's fun because when we tell people the story about it, they really, really love it. And because it's part of our heart, it's you know, not only the wine, but our story and relationship and all the rest of it. And then the Ellies actually came from the same place, which is we wanted our first reserve wine, uh reserve Cabernet Sauvignon, um, to be super special and have a story behind it. And so we had lost our little girl, Ellie, a few years ago, and we decided to um make it a little ode to her memory. And um, I know this don't have it visually right now, but the um our Badara logo is actually a palm tree inside a grape leaf, which is the island and the vineyard coming together, our honeymoon spot. And so for Ellie's, what we did is we replaced the palm tree inside the grape leaf with her paw print. So on the bottle, you can see her paw print inside the grape leaf. So um, so yeah, I mean, everything we do is is goes back to something we're passionate about, whether it's the wine passion, the um, you know, our honeymoon, our dog, you know, so it's uh that's sort of where that came from.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

My dogs like me a lot, but they worship my wife. And she is she is everything in the world to them. They are absolutely enamored with her. She's like a dog whisperer, and I I I I love it. I love her to pieces, and my dogs love her so much. But coming back to your wine, I mean, I I love the story. And I mean, I love the fact that you even on your website, you have a picture of like your team is you, your husband, and your new pup. Like that to me, that's the type of stuff like I wanted to ship comments on that because like one of the things that I think I work in marketing, I help some wineries of marketing, and when people tell me stories, I was like, this is the story you want to tell. Like, I I don't need the drone shots. I want to hear about Ripley. I want to hear about, you know, I want to hear about you and Jeff. And I want to know what a barrel rat means, you know. Like, what is that? You know, why is Jeff describing himself as a barrel rat? And you know, that's amazing. And you're the CPO, chief picking officer. How amazing is that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Well, yeah, I mean, I think again, um, yes, it's about the wine, but it's also about things that people can relate to, you know. I think that's that's important and see themselves in, you know. Um, I'm a bit of a marketer myself, and it's um it's and all of you know, my marketing comes from my soul, I guess. I don't know how else to say it, but so it's not like, oh, it's a marketing thing. It's actually something I'm passionate about.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

So yeah. I'm with you because like I was I created this podcast as a labor of love for my home and a place that when I was growing up in the Napa Valley, I didn't see this person and that person, uh the this wine and that wine. I saw the people behind them. I saw the winemaker, like he would show up every day at the same swimming pool I'd go to, you know, and we'd swim at the same place, you know. And then, you know, he would also be the guy creating this absolutely amazing wine. And what I remember was that most of these people are not they're they're farmers, they're people that love the land, they're people that are grounded in that relationship with the land. And I think that that's there's something powerful, powerful to be said for that. You know, what is the connection that you have to this land? And if you can figure that out, uh you learn the story of that wine, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Well, it's so funny too, because um, speaking of this industry, you know, which said is kind of a weird term to use, just only because it's so community-based. Um everybody knows everybody. Um, and people help each other in the most amazing ways that you know you wouldn't find in other industries. Um, like I said, I, you know, coming from other um places, I was that was the thing that was most cool about about the wine um community was the fact that people help each other and um and and just everyone wants all of this to get better and better, uh, I think. So it's pretty cool. I mean, one of the things it's funny, later today I'm having a group of winemakers come to my place um to do a uh sort of a blind tasting of roses um across all sorts. Yeah. So um I think there's about 12 of them coming over. Uh, so it's gonna be pretty cool. But again, I mean, you you just you don't see quote unquote competing businesses all getting together the way that we do here in in wine country.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

I love that. Right. You don't, and I mean, I think that that was one of the things that I I um I loved when I'd so many of the winemakers that come on and I was like, Oh, you know, do you have your secrets? And they're like, No, I have the way I make wine, and there are other people that have make, but I will tell so many people like, I'll tell any of the people I talk to how I make wine because just gonna make better wine. And if they learn the technique I'm doing and I can share with them what makes great wine for me, then I would love to hear what makes great wine for them. And then suddenly you just have better wine across the board and everyone's making great wine. And I was like, are you afraid that someone's gonna steal it? They're like, they don't have the grapes that we do, they don't have the same like land that we're we're putting, you know, getting grapes from. It's like just all of these different components make up the wine, and they're like, if they get something similar to that we do, then hey, there's another set of great wine out there. But like, it's so interesting to me that it is such a community, it is such a group that is grounded in something, you know, beautiful but practical at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yep. Yeah. One of my things that kind of killed me when I first came in uh to my first my first wine job was like, wait, I can go to these other tasting rooms and get a discount on their wines. That's interesting, you know, sort of the whole trade, you know, discount kind of thing. And you know, we're when I was working at Gap, it's not like I could go down to J.Cru. I work at Gap, so can I get a discount at J. Crew? It wasn't like, not like that. Um, so I mean, just another example of how we all, you know, work together and help each other.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

100%. I want to ask you a question though. Like, why do some wineries create lifelong fans while others struggle to get people to come back?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Well, I think again, it goes, God, it it goes back to the people oftentimes, you know. I really think, yes, it is the wine. Sure. You love the wine. I'm gonna keep, you know, being a member or a fan or whatever. But at the same time, it's so much about um, especially for people who go to wine country, it's it's meeting the people at the winery. And um one thing that my my husband Jeff and I used to always do on a random Saturday, we'd be like, you know, let's go see Meredith. And Meredith was at Bennett Lane. It wasn't like, let's go to Bennett Lane, it was let's go see Meredith who works at Bennett Lane, you know. So I mean, so much of it is those relationships that you do, you know, really hold and hug, um, you know, as as uh working in a winery, you know, it's it's the relationships with with your with your fans, with your members, with, you know, neighbors, it's it's all of that. And if you can keep those relationships going, um, that's gonna that's gonna help you hold on to those fans.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah, it's so true. I want to ask you another question too, because you know, what have you learned about wine drinkers that most people in wine wine industry completely miss?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Um I mean again, I think it's uh it comes back to it's sort of knowing your audience. That's always what I say a lot, is um I think people are different. There's certain people who just want to completely geek out on wine. Um, there's certain people who are new to wine and they just want more of a fun experience. So I think um that's one of the things that I always would tell my team is sort of, you know, know your audience, you know, get to know people at the beginning of a tasting and better understand what they're looking for. Um and I think that just the oversaturation of how complicated it is and how bougie it is and how much how just the complication of it, I just think that's that's not the right way to go about it. Um I mean, certainly for certain people who who want to better understand the whole process of winemaking from the vineyard management all the way through the barrel regimen to the, you know, great, that's fine. But I think for for the majority of people, let's let's keep it fun and approachable versus complicated.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

I think that's huge. And I I think that like it got very complicated. You know, there was a lot of complications that kind of came in. And I think that one of the things that I've been noticing is that I at least on my podcast, the people that I'm talking to have very much tried to make wine more accessible, make wine easier to relate to, easier to connect to, and easier to to talk about, even. It goes from the from the basic tasting to some bigger things. Like, I'm gonna grab a wine here. My brother-in-law just came back from from uh from he lives in Paris, and he came back to visit, and he's like, I want to bring you some wine. And I was like, Hey, can you give me that one wine that I cannot pronounce, but I think it means the Pope's capital? And he's like, perfect French, chute nuf du poop. And I was just like, Yes, that that I've never had it, but everyone on my wine is like, well, the most amazing wine that I've ever had was like de poop. And I was just like, Oh, first of all, you said it the right way. Like you poop, you know, it's like, oh, you can do the French. I speak Vietnamese fluently, I am so good at languages, but I slaughter French consistently. And so I got myself a bottle of uh de poop. Um very nice. I'm extremely happy about that. But like the idea that it's okay to not be able to say something. You know, I have the hardest time uh with the word terroi, terrore, terrible, I can't say it correctly, tewa, you know, the idea of place. And like when I go and say that, and I've got a wine podcast, and I'm still messing up terms, you know. So, like, for people who are getting into it, man, the place. You know what? Well, what does that fancy word mean? It means where it's from. Now, let's imagine that you grow up in New York and we got another guy who grows up in California. Okay, are you gonna look the same? No, man, they're gonna look a little bit different. So the person who grows up in New York is gonna probably get a little bit more cold, grow around more cold. They might have certain ways they do things, they might eat certain foods. The person growing up in California has something very different. Now, the fact that you both grew up in different places is gonna make you look and be a little bit different. Yeah, yep. You understand that? Yeah, I understand that. Okay, boom. Right there, we're heading in the right direction for you. Understand the idea of place. Now, when you have two wines that might be even the same bridal, but you grow them up in two different places, and like what I'm fascinated by is that we can start talking to people about that, you know. Um, if we can do that, then we can start moving in the right direction about making wine fun. Make it fun. How do you think we can make wine more fun?

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um, you know, I think that it does go back to certainly that from a tasting experience. I think um I think we need to rethink that. And um, and I think a lot of wineries are doing this. You know, they're they're trying to create more events, more communal type of things. I think unfortunately, you know, COVID kind of hurt that a lot for obvious reasons. I mean, it was, you know, it used to be belly up to the bar and meet the person from Alabama next to you and talk to them, and maybe they'll they'll sell you on becoming a club member or whatever, you know. Um, and then COVID happened, everything was separated. I mean, everyone started to do, was doing a little bit of this, you know, separate table, um, you know, wine and food pairings and all that kind of thing. And I think people, again, I keep going back to meet people where they are. So if someone wants to come in and do an hour and a half, two-hour tasting, food and wine pairing, la la la, you know, fine. But if, you know, there's other people who want to just like go up to the bar, do a quick tasting, meet people next to them, that's great. But I think in general, uh, the more that we can create um places where people can meet and and because I mean, for me, that's like some of my favorite memories of going to wineries was meeting people that I never had met before. So um, so I think I think that's a big part of it. I think just this whole like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna be by myself or with just my friends and not talk to anybody else, and I'm gonna have the, you know, um the Som or whoever come and sit with me for an hour and a half. Like, no, it just it needs to be environments where people are are kind of greeting each other and meeting each other. And um I I and I think, you know, not to get too like big picture, but I, you know, that's something that we're dealing with as a whole society right now is everyone being sort of separated and and not learning how to talk to each other, and you know, so um, and and that's what wine is, you know, wine is about, like people enjoying something together, um, whether it's over dinner or at a tasting room or at a party, whatever. But I I just think that's a very long-winded way of saying, like I think it needs to be more about people coming together.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I agree. And I think that at the end of the day, um so many of our world problems would be solved if we could just come together, talk, look at each other, hear each other's stories. Because I mean, I I don't know if there's any other way to bridge the gap. Like you can't shut down, you can't stop talking. I recently had a challenge with a person who shut down. And I don't know how to fix that. I don't know if we any of us know how to fix some of these problems that we encounter in our lives, but I do know that if we can find a time and a way to sit down and have open communication, it definitely can make things better, you know? And I think that that's a step-by-step process. But I want to ask you this too. Um, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Well, I was just, I was gonna say the um, I think the other thing at wineries too is, and some people are doing this, is I don't know the term gamification, but like, you know, just creating opportunities for people to kind of play together, I think is is kind of cool. Um, and yes, botchy has been a thing for a little while, but I mean, other other ways that we can, and some people do like trivia nights and things like that, which I think are very fun, but um, so that type of idea.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

I love that. And one of the things too is like I'm fascinated by the uh the gamification of one thing. I I'm talking to a guy that's really cool this week, and he used to work for Mr. Beast, he's he used to be his head of production, um, but he has now since left. And I think Mr. Beast is involved with it, but they're creating a board game restaurant and kind of like bar thing that it's family friendly that you can go and just play board games, and they sell great board games, and you can go and play board games there because at the end of the day, man, it's fun. I mean, could give me a great glass of chatunus deep and you know, some board games, and I will be extremely happy, you know? Or, you know, probably prefer my my you know something from from my own hometown. But, you know, give me something and give me people because I think at the end of the day, that's where it's at, you know? Mm-hmm. I want to ask you why do people buy wine? Is it really about what's in the bottle or is there something else?

unknown 21:59

Um

SPEAKER_01 22:00

I mean, I'll speak for myself, I guess. It yes, it's what's in the bottle, but it's also um I don't know, again, what sort of how it brings people together. And I mean, okay, so my husband and I will drink wine at night. And um there is and since obviously since we own a winery and you know, we geek out a little bit on things. Like last night we opened a bottle that was rather aged. And um so for us at least, you know, it gave us like something to talk about about the age of the wine. Um, but I think for most people, it is something that is it's something that says, okay, I'm gonna share this. You know, I mean, it's not just like I'm gonna buy a can of you know seltzer or an RTD or something like that or a beer, like I'm gonna buy this thing that I'm going to share with others. Um, so I think at least that's my perspective. Um, and and that's what I love about it. And that's why I wish more people would do it.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Right? It is a communal thing. We get together and we enjoy this beautiful wine together, you know, and it's generally not something you're just sitting there doing in isolation, you know? Um and that to me is really special. I think that uh there's a lot to be said for that shared experience, and I think that that's where the power comes. And I think that I don't know, I I'm just exceed exceedingly excited, exceptionally excited about the direction things could go, you know, and I think that they're I saw a pottery, winery and pottery class, and my wife's like, Whoa, that's interesting. I said, Well, there's also what winery and like you know, like wine tasting and flower arrangement. And she's like, Okay, now we're talking, you know, and to me, like these ways about bringing people together to just slow down. I have um I'm a big photographer, I've got a video production company, but my passion, where are you at? There you are. It's still they drop everything all over the floor. It's so I love film photography. And you know, I've got these, you know, I've got film rolls everywhere, and I absolutely love it, you know, for a couple reasons. One, I don't have I just went through a photo shoot that we had a photographer do for my wife and daughter. He gave us 5,000 photos, and it's just like, oh my goodness. When I do a photo shoot, I at the same photo shoot took a lot of photos and I finished two rolls. This is 60 or 72 photos right here. 72 photos. And did I get good photos? I don't know yet. I don't know. But I'm gonna take them in and I'm gonna get them developed tomorrow. And when I do get them developed, I'm gonna find out. Just like when I open this this bottle of wine, I don't know if it's good yet. But I'm gonna be present in that experience. And when I pop off this top and then I pop off the cork, I will sit there and go, that is special, or I love it, or God, I hate it. But it's about the experience, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I always say that wine is a limited limited edition product, um, because every year is a new year. And so it's limited edition. It's scarce, it you know, it runs out. So I don't know. There's something about that that also makes it really special as well. Just the fact that every year is different and and it's not something that's going to be there forever, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, right. One of the things, too, is um I'm fascinated by the ability for it to last long so long. That a wine can be something that we have that has time on it. Because some things don't, you know, you get a soda can and it it it you drink it. You get a lot of beer, it's made pretty recently. But with wine, there's that the time, you know, and that that time is powerful.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Oh, yeah, yeah, it really is. I mean, that's um, of course, one of my favorite movies of all time is Sideways. And um, and that that speech, um, of course I'm blanking on her name, but when she talks about how wine is alive, that is the cool, like one of the coolest lines about wine ever. I just say a bottle of wine is alive, you know, and because it is. It's um, I just think that that's such a cool thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

You're right. It really is alive, and I I I think it's powerful. I want to ask you this next question. Um, because you know, for winery owners, like it is a business. And if a winery could focus on one thing to grow its business, what should it be? But I'm gonna say my perspective, I think you're onto something. I know they've got puppy yoga, but dude, puppy wine uh wine tasting? I am I'm here for this. I am here for this.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, uh, give me more puppy wine tasting. That's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

I love it. Um, yeah, I mean, it it got it so depends. There's so many variables, right? Like if you're a a big winery, a small winery. I mean, I can only I guess I I could speak for a lot since I've managed a bunch of big ones um in my corporate jobs and stuff. But I mean, for me, I think um for us, it's about maintaining and cherishing and attracting um more people to your to your wine brand. Um I think it's all about that. And I mean, that makes sense. Like, okay, pulling off shelf, buying it at restaurants, coming to your tasting room, joining the club, all of that. But and that's that's at least for a small winery like us, that's really critical is having those quote unquote channels. Um, whether it's our wine club, you know, our tasting room, our online, um, being in local restaurants is something I'm really working on right now because I I want people to discover us, given the fact that we're like 400 case production and um, you know, people who is Bedara, you know, being on the list at some of these amazing restaurants in Hillsburg, which we are now, is really, really great. Um so I think, I think it's making sure that you are in the right spaces um in order to keep things going um and keep that momentum, you know, drive the momentum, keep the momentum. I think that's that's really the big thing. Um, and you know, again, community. I keep going back to community, community, like how important that is in this, in this, this business is, you know, making sure you're in front of the Psalms at the various restaurants, making sure that you're touching your um your club members frequently. Um, you know, all of those things, it's so much about relationship is really the big thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I love that. I I think it is about relationships. And I think it's about how can you build those and strengthen those and keep growing them, you know? Uh, because at the end of the day, it's not one thing. It's not just one thing, it's all of the things that make the big difference.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Well, and the the other thing I would just I would just chime in on is the fact that it's um kind of competitive. I mean, I mean, we're all helping each other and everything else, but there's a lot of wine brands out there. Um, and especially when you're in quote unquote wine country, you know, you're you're we being little Bedara, we're like surrounded by so many big names and all the rest of it. So it's it's even more important that you stand out in in a unique way um and keep those relationships going.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

I 100% agree. And it's wild that um I think it's wild that people can um not always understand how relationship-driven things are. Living in Asia for a long time, I see how we, you know, you are only as good as the people around you, the network around you, the connections that you have around you, because no one exists inside of a vacuum. And um, you know, at the end of the day, you have to be understanding of that and to reconnecting. But I'm fascinated because you worked at some big companies like Disney and Gap and major realtor retail brands. What lessons from companies like that do you wish more wineries understood?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Uh, you know, I think that the the biggest one, at least for me, when I hit the industry in uh the wine business in 2009, um, and again, that's that was a little while ago, but um, the wine industry seems to be a little bit behind um on certain things. And in that example was a bunch of things, right? It was a lot of the like platforms, you know, um online, e-commerce, um, CRM, um, even daily flash reports. Like, for example, at my previous job at like Gap, I'd come in, sit down at my desk. First thing that would show up on my computer was the flash report, which showed exactly what the sales were the day before in every single channel and giving you like, okay, how did that email do? How did that? So I think back then a lot of that was missing. Um, I think the one the wine industry has done a much better job. We've got some really great platforms, like Commerce 7 is a great one. There's, you know, a bunch of different platforms that that even small wineries can utilize in order to be more, I guess, business focused in a way. Um, and that was sort of my like, I was like, wait, are we trying to sell wine here or are we like, what are we, what are we trying? Are we just trying to like host guests and be nice? I mean, yes, obviously hospitality is very important, but at the end of the day, I came from a very business kind of mindset of like, okay, what were our sales in the last 10 minutes, you know, kind of thing. Um so I think I think the wine industry has done a better job now about being more balanced. Um, although I have seen it kind of flip-flop. I've seen the industry kind of go from zero to a hundred and then back to zero and back to a hundred. Whereas I'd like to see it be more like in the middle and balanced. So what I'm getting at is sort of the business side as well as the hospitality side um being balanced um and important. So I think that was a big one for me. Um I think I mean that that was really the main thing. I think what I learned about the um wine industry, sort of what I was saying earlier, is the community aspect. And I think that's what the other side of the world of corporations was kind of missing, you know? Um, and I think the storytelling, and and I'm kind of actually doing the opposite of what you asked me, but one of the things that I found really fascinating was the fact that when COVID started to happen, and even before that, a little bit, a lot of retailers were like, okay, how do we make this experience of walking into a gap or whatever more of an experience versus a, I'm gonna pull the sweater off this shelf or whatever. Um, so that's where I was like, wow, wine really had that going for it. And a lot of retailers could learn from wineries about how to create more experiences in these retail stores. So I don't know. I mean, I think I think there's there were um things that both sides were doing well and things that both sides were not doing well and could really learn from each other. So um hopefully that answered your question. But um but yeah, I just think it was it was just kind of interesting um seeing how one type of company can benefit another type of company in a different way.