What Winemaking Really Takes | Adam Lee | Barrels and Roots

In this episode of Barrels and Roots, I sit down with veteran winemaker Adam Lee to unpack what it really takes to understand wine, make great Pinot Noir, and build a life around the craft. Adam takes me from his early days selling wine in Texas to launching his first vintage with just $24,000 and eventually earning recognition from legendary wine critic Robert Parker.

We talk about how beginners can learn to taste wine without getting overwhelmed, why slowing down matters, how price actually relates to wine quality, and which wines everyone should experience at least once. Adam also explains why Pinot Noir is more “demanding” than difficult, what people never see behind the scenes during harvest, and why experience comes from making mistakes, recognizing patterns, and adapting.

More than anything, this conversation reminded me that wine isn’t about memorizing rules or impressing people, it’s about curiosity, craftsmanship, patience, and bringing people together.

What’s the one wine that completely changed the way you thought about wine?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It it is. And it teaches one a lot of lessons and patience, much like child rearing. I've got three kids. I understand. I mean, there there are um some similarities and crossovers that one sees between them. I think um the goal of making wine is is a wonderful one. And I think it can be done still fairly inexpensively. It takes a while to build it up so that it can become your full-time job. That's a thing, but you can get into making wine in a fairly inexpensive way. But I also think what you're doing here is important as well. I think as wine is somewhat challenged right now, there are less people in the world drinking wine now than there have been in a while. Wine's wine and and actually alcohol as a whole um is kind of in a downward trend for the moment. I think we're kind of bumping along the bottom. But um I think you know, wine media is important, getting um stories out there, um, telling um because to a large extent, wine uh as much as I love wine, wine is really about bringing people together.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Welcome everybody back to Barrels and Roots. I am your host, Sean Trace, and I have an awesome guest with me today. Can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do? Sure. I am Adam Lee.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I was the founder of a winery called Seduri Wines. I sold that uh some years ago and now make wine under a label called Claire East Wine Company, but I also make some wine in France and have about eight or so different clients that I consult for. And I also write about wine for a publication called North Bay Biz Magazine. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

How did you get started in this path of making wine?

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Um, I actually got started in wine itself, more selling wine before I got into making wine. And I actually think that has been a real advantage over. I've been doing this now. Hell, I've been making wine since 1994. So it's that 32 years now. But um, I got a job in wine retail in Austin, Texas. I was uh a student at Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas, studying French history. I was specializing in the comparative history of the French and American prison systems, which shockingly, yeah, it didn't lead to a job right after college. But I had a friend who was a junior or who was a senior when I was a junior. They got a job out in Northern California. And so I spent the summer between my junior and senior years out in Northern California and on the weekends would go wine tasting and really and truly fell in love with wine and was looking at the possibility of going to graduate school. I'd been accepted to a couple of places and took a summer off between undergrad and graduate school to um work in a wine store. And I fell in love and never looked back and ended up running those three wine stores, became the wine buyer for Neiman Marcus department stores, and then moved out to California really to write about wine. I had a newsletter going and I was writing about wine, and one of the more famous winemakers out here, David Ramey, I reviewed his wines and we were talking, and he said, You really should try making wine. You you would your writing would be better if you understood more about the process. So I started in 1994 with $24,000 and made 107 cases. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

It's awesome because it's like you had this. A lot of people will get an idea and then not do it. A lot of people will get an idea and sit there and go, well, I don't know if I should, or, and then they let things kind of go in circles, but you went down that path. Um, you know, I it leads me to ask you this question like, was there, you know, as you were getting into wine, was there a glass or a varietal that just kind of pulled you deeper in, or was it all of the wine that you could think of, you know, all of these different wines?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, no, there really was. Um, so when I was out in California between my junior and senior years, um, I thought I had learned a little bit about wine after spending, you know, most of the summer uh because I liked Mundavi White Zen better than I like Southern Home White Zen. And so that seemed to me like I had uh a wine education where obviously I really was not all that knowledgeable. But one day uh decided to go over to Sonoma County and um tour and found this winery that thought was absolutely gorgeous, overlooking vines, river, had a picnic, and I fell in love with a bottle of red wine. And that first red wine that I ever truly fell in love with was the 1984 Rocchioli Pinot Noir. And that wine um really started my love affair with with Pinot Noir in specifically. Specifically, I mean, it pushed me truly into wine. Wine up till then was um, I mean, it was fun, it was enjoyable. I I obviously liked it quite a bit, but this it changed the way I viewed wine. It became something that, okay, here's a passion that I have having tasted this wine, I want to follow this.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

That's awesome. And and so, excuse me, it's interesting too because um people will have different wines that pull them down that path. But, you know, as someone who's getting into wine, how how would you tell them to, you know, learn about different wines or experience different wines? You know, where would you tell them to start?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah, I think it's a great question. It was a question that maybe was easier to answer back um in the time I was starting out, because at least like visiting wineries was um not an expensive proposition. Now, unfortunately, wineries have started to look, this really became true post-COVID. Wineries started to look as tastings as a profit center. And I think that's a problem as opposed to looking at it as a marketing expense. But if you're not in the white country area, you will find that local retailers, um, sometimes different restaurants will provide taste uh tasting opportunities. Uh, and I think going to those uh is really important. Those a lot of times aren't that expensive, and um, it will provide you a chance to try a bunch of wines. And one of the things that I think is really important is to go into that. I mean, if you really want to get into wine, go into it with the idea of I want to try things and I want to understand not just that I like the wine, but if I taste a wine that I don't like, but that seems to be well made, what don't you like about it? What I mean, figure that, you know, go into that a little more. I remember I went, I mean, this was uh some years after that, but I never really loved Sauvenir, which is a Loire, very crisp, high acid um um Shinon Blanc, very, very high acid. And I never really loved it. So when I went to France, um the first time after being in the wine business, I'd gone on a high school trip. If it's Tuesday, it must be Vienna kind of trip, but I didn't um uh I went to Sauvignon because I knew it was a great wine, I just didn't understand it. And then when I went there, I tried it um with pike, which is a fish, and all of a sudden it was like my my mind was blown. It's like this is why people drink Sauvignon. I still don't have a lot of it. And I mean, I'm in my cellar here, I don't have a lot of Sauvignon. It's not something I still adore by any means, but I understood it better. So sometimes it's important if you really want to get into it, not just to say, hey, I want to drink things I like, but I want to understand why I don't like or why I do like something.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

That's awesome. Because it's one of the things too, is like I was finding is the um in anything that people get into, whether it be music or food, you have to try stuff. You have to get out there and put yourself into the situation where you are experiencing new things, you know. Uh, if someone is only listening to K-pop, they're gonna have a very skewed sense of music. And it doesn't mean that they won't love music and won't have a great appreciation of music, but maybe the depth of what they can appreciate is not there yet because they just haven't had the chance to try different things, you know. And then that that I had the weirdest thing, like I didn't like whites for the longest time. I didn't like white wines, and I suddenly realized I wasn't at this one party with a friend and they pulled out this amazing Sauvignon Blanc, and I tried it, and I was like, I've never had a Sauvignon Blanc that I loved. And then I tried this, and I was just like, Well, that is fun, it's special, and it went well with the food that was presented. And they're like, Oh, and then they went on and they had all of these other whites that they they served, and I was just like blown away, and I was like, Well, I I like white wines, and it wasn't because I I just hadn't had a great experience to that point.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Well, this would be sacrilege to the people who know me now, but I uh often felt that way about champagne and sparkling white. I felt exactly like you did. I it was like the bubbles get in the way. I tried, you know, the smelly taste, I don't like they're they're interfering with my my taste, and I just didn't quite get it. And then ended up going on a trip to Champagne for a little bit, and all of a sudden it was like now I understand. And that that made a difference to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

I I am 100% with you. For the longest time I had a weird love-hate relationship with champagne, but now I am beginning to really understand it more. I understand the sparkling more and the experience of it. But like, I want to ask you this because for some person like who's getting to wine, and if they feel like wine all tastes the same, how do they start noticing real differences?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

They slow down and taste when they're eating. Uh honestly, I think that is something. I mean, so often these days we're in a rush with our jobs, with with life in general, um, family, you know, you have young kids around the house. Um, you're eating for you just need sustenance. That's what you're doing. I mean, you're not so they take time uh and slow down. And as they're eating food, which they do, you know, people do two, three times a day, um, take the time to notice the flavors. And once you start doing that with food, it will translate into wine as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

I love that. I love it because, you know, so much of what we do is done in a rush. Uh, you know, we wake up, we turn on the phone, we dive into some project or something, and you know, from that point till the end of the day, it's just constant go time. I've been trying to work on being more mindful and slowing down and telling myself, you know, do I have to do that thing right now? Does it have to be done at this moment? Or can I sit here and breathe and do it at a pace that is um as long as you get it done, uh, you know, do it in a space that that allows for breath and fulfillment and enjoyment, you know, because even if you're doing hard stuff, there's a way to do it that is can be done with presence and without the the let me slow down and say this a different way. I'm gonna slow down right now, too. There was a great story about the Buddhist master Tetnyad Han, the Vietnamese Buddhist master, and he was talking about um how he offered, I think it was a plum to one of the people who came to his winery or to his um hermitage in a winery. Uh he offered this person a plum and they were like, Can you tell me about Buddhism? Can you tell about enlightenment? You can tell me about inner peace. And he looked at this man while the man, he's like, Can you give me back my plum? You're not enjoying the plum right now. You're asking me all these questions. Can you just sit and enjoy your plum? And the guy's like got frustrated. He's like, But I'm here, I need these answers. And he's like, You're getting them. But you're getting the wrong answers right now because you're going too fast, you know? And I always think about that because even one of my last tastings, I was thinking about all the things I had to do, all the places I had to be, all the stuff I had to get to. And then finally, about half a glass in, I looked at my wife and I settled into this place of like, I'm just glad to be here. And I suddenly the wine became more full, the experience became more deep. And uh, I I I really resonate with what you're saying there.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

I and I think today I had something of a similar experience, but one that that is different as well. Um, one of the hazards of our job is that went out with some friends last night and drank a little too much last night. So have been running a little slow today. And in doing that, I've sat around and replied to emails to people that I haven't gone out and done, I didn't go to vineyards today, I didn't go to check in at the winery, I didn't do anything major other than I took my time, I laid around, I had the I'm like, okay, I've seen The Godfather a gazillion times, but for some reason I put it on again as something in the background. And you know, I took a little nap, got back up, did some more work. It's been a somewhat leisurely day, only because it started out kind of a slow day for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

That's so interesting. You know, but it's like I think one of those things is like, yeah, I'm putting the Godfather on in the background. That sounds awesome. I want to ask you this question, though. Uh, if I'm in a store with no clue what I'm doing, what's a safe bottle to grab? And maybe there's no wrong answer on that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Um, there's probably not a wrong answer. Uh, I mean, a couple of things. First and foremost, uh, I had a friend a long time ago when I was in wine, just getting into it, working in that retail store, and somebody had told me what a great vintage 85 burgundy was, and they were just starting to disappear from the shelves. And I spoke to this friend, a guy named Mark Mattingley. He was a salesperson, and I'm like, Mark, should I borrow money to buy some of these 85 burgundies? Because I heard here it's been, you know, it's the greatest vintage in 20-ish years. He's like, No, Adam, don't be silly, don't put yourself in a bad position. There's going to be another great vintage come along. There are going to be other great wines. Um, so first and foremost, I think the answer would be um make sure you stay within your price range. There's really good wine now in a whole range of prices. And so you don't have to go out and drop a hundred bucks, you don't even have to drop 50 bucks to get something I think that's really good. So be be fair to your what you can afford to pay. Um, if you find a good wine shop, not one that's just a large warehouse, but really a good wine shop, uh, an individual there can help guide you in some directions. But I will tell you, for existence, like if you want to talk about California wines, 2023 and 2024 were two pretty exceptional vinages back to back. So if you say I want to have a Sauvignon Blanc, like you talked about earlier, I you'd be hard pressed to go wrong with these the 23 and 24 vinages. Um, 22 was a little iffier. Um 2020 was a year where we had smoke, but if you get look at 23s, 24s for just about any California vintage, uh or any California wine, you should do pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I wanted to ask you, um when it comes to paying for wine, does price matter? Or, you know, do I just need to try things, you know?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Uh I first off, I I think price matters a little bit, but not to the level uh at which um you I mean you can find very good wine these days below twenty dollars a bottle, but I do think there's probably kind of a cutoff of at around twenty bucks, you've reached a level where there is a consistency of quality um kind of across the board. Then I think there's probably another cutoff at around 50 bucks or so that that you're really getting into some top-end stuff at that price point. And then I'm not really sure that there's necessarily um better up and above that kind of price point. It is hard with certain grape types to make something really inexpensive, like five bucks, eight bucks, nine bucks. I I think that can be difficult to do. Um, certain grapes are maybe more like if it's an unknown grape, perhaps, or there's certain regions. For example, Spain, um, the Spanish government actually subsidizes um wine wineries, winemaking, grape growing to the tune of about one euro per bottle, which by the time it gets to the uh on a retail shelf, that can be three dollars, four dollars. I mean, that helps Spanish wines say stay less expensive. Um, but I I think it's hard at that lower in price. It's a hit and miss vintage to vintage, producer to producer kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

That's so interesting. Well, you know, I wanted to know too, because I I started this podcast. I grew up in the Napa Valley with great wines, but I found myself not knowing about wines, you know, and I now live overseas part of the year, and I'm like, well, talk to me about French wines and the top, you know, and I was like blown away that the labeling on French wines is so different than what we have in the States. Like, you know, I was just like, well, it's a Bordeaux. Well, what Bordeaux is it? Or it's a, you know, I got to have my first uh bottle of Chateau Neuf dup. And I was like trying it, and I was just like, well, what's in it though? I mean, is it like, and then the idea that a certain region has characteristics, you know? But talking to you about that, like, what's some wine that everyone, maybe two or three, should try at least once to understand what great wine tastes like? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Um, so it it is it does take people a while to to realize that with French wines, with most European wines, they're labeled by the region, not necessarily by the grape. Well, in the United States, we label it by the grape. The reason for that is in major wine regions in in France and and actually throughout most of Europe, they are legally limited as to what they can grow in a region. So if you say it's Chatenuf to pop, that's a list of grapes. Only those grapes can be um uh in that particular wine, only the grapes that are allowed to be grown in Chateneuf to call it Chatneuf. Uh so that's the reason why they go by by place. It almost in and of itself has a um has a limiting grape factor to it. Um I do think um that there are some regions that people should try to get a feel for things. I think um Bordeaux, I mean you can do California Cabernet, and Bordeaux is uh many times Cabernet based. It's one of the like Cabernet Merlot, Cabernet Froc. It can be a blend of of those and actually two other grapes. Um I do think one should try a very good Bordeaux at some point in their life, that that's very helpful. I think um one should try something from their own. Um Chateauf de Pop is a good example. One should try champagne, it is a good example. Um, but really what we're we're talking about here too is trying different grapes. If you want to stick to the United States, um uh go across and try a Cabernet, try a Pinot Noir, try a Chardonnay, try a Sauvignon Blanc. Those are four right off the bat. Pretty easy. You can taste the difference between a Cabernet and a Pinot Noir. Look and see color, um, taste is which one tastes heavier to you, um, which one tastes more fruity to you. The same thing on Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay. And um, I think if you if you did those four grape types, it is a very good base uh from which to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

I love that. And at the end of the day, we all need that strong base, you know. But I wanted to ask you this question because like, what's the biggest mistake people make when they're trying to get into wine? You know, is it I've seen people do too much, like I've seen these two things. Well, of my friends that were getting to wine, one people tried, they found something they liked and they never drank anything else. And they're like, I love wine, and I am drinking this and only this, and they explored everything Merlot. And then, or the opposite, people try so much that they then start. Like going, I have no idea where I'm going and I feel lost.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, I mean, I think that both of those are experiences that you've seen that I I've seen. I agree with you. Um, it's interesting when it comes to beer, for instance. I'm a very tried and true. Here's the beer that I like to drink. I've got a couple of others. I don't experiment a lot in beer. With wine, you're never gonna see me at the dinner table having a second bottle of the same wine. I mean, I I want to play, I want to try different things. I do think some people are just naturally more like, okay, here's what I like. Here's um, and and stick with that. And that's not bad. I mean, I it's the way I am with beer. My wife is um, she's made beer and she's continually frustrated at my I I mean, yesterday we went to Russian River Brewery, and um I said, go order me a beer that I'll like, because I I don't know. I'm just like go find something for me. Um, so it's okay to be both of those, but if you really want to learn more about wine, if you really want to get into wine, I think it's important to be someplace in between that. Try different things. Um and you can limit that sum. I do think it's also a pretty good social skill to know something about wine, particularly if you're a younger person coming up in a business world. Um you never know when you might be called upon to order the wine for uh an event or a dinner or something uh like that. So um it it's I'm really not a good golfer. My wife is also knows more about beer and is a better golfer than I am. But I think golf's not a bad skill to have, also in the in the in the I mean, you don't have to be great. We're not on television, anything like that, but know how to do that to help move ahead in the business world. I think know a little bit about uh wine enough that you can order a bottle, look at things on the list. There's there's something that I I have seen more people do, people who don't know much about wine, and it's not a bad strategy whatsoever. And they're like, I bought the second cheapest wine in the Pinot Noir section, or the second cheapest wine in the Chardonnay section. Not the cheapest, you don't want to be seen doing that, and that might be crap. They might just carry it because it's cheap, but they buy it, buy the second cheapest, and it's really not the worst strategy.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

It's so interesting, and it's pretty funny because you know, why not? Yeah, yeah. But I wanted to say for people like it's very easy for people that are getting in to overthink wine. How do you hold the glass? How do you pour? How do you sniff? How do you swirl? How do you do all these things? If you just want to enjoy wine without overthinking it, what should you focus on?

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Um, I I do think, I mean, you don't have to do these huge swirls, you don't have to do that, but I think the first thing is to smell the wine. I mean, really and truly do smell it, it makes a difference. Um, I think that's true with food as well. I mean, uh I, you know, cooking bacon or you know, onions and garlic and all of that, and and my wife will come downstairs and she'll be like, wow, it smells good in here. That that's um that's a thing. So you do want to like spend a little time just smelling it. And then the people who do these big exaggerated slurps, uh that seems silly to me. Um, but put it in your mouth and instead of just um downing it like it's a Coca-Cola or uh, you know, McDonald's fries we were talking earlier about eating just quickly, taste it. Just take it, keep it in your mouth for just a minute, taste it, and then then swallow it. I mean, I think that's it. And pay attention to, you know, how does it smell? Does it smell good to you? Does it taste fruity up front? And at the end, as you finish the taste, does the taste stick with you in a in a positive way? Um, I did want to tell you one story. You you asked about like mistakes that people make. Um, I'll tell you about a mistake. One of the worst mistakes I made, and this was a long time ago, back when I was in wine retail. But um I was set up on a blind date, and I'd been set up for a while, and I want to impress the this woman. And so um I I definitely the wines were more affordable than, but I bought a bottle of 85 Chateau Margot and took it on a blind date, and um I ended up going out with that girl for a year, and every time we would go out to dinner, I'd bring a nice bottle of wine, but she would say, you know, Adam, this is this is a good wine, but it doesn't taste like that 85 Chateau Margot did. And so I'm like, no doubt, it's not going to. I was trying to get you then. So I was trying to show off, but I couldn't afford it. But I set the bar way too high um on that first date. So that that's uh talking about mistakes, wine mistakes, that's one of the worst mistakes I made wine-wise.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I um I have a uh an episode coming up where I am uh speaking with someone who's in Champagne, and we have agreed to have some champagne in front of us uh during the episode. And uh I was looking at I called my local wine shop that has a great selection here in Vietnam, and they always have wonderful things for me. And I was like, I need these three types of champagne because we're gonna try to look at this and try to compare these. And uh, can you help me out? And they sent me back a wine list that was like, oh yeah, they can help me out. And I was just like, it was like a $600 bottle of champagne, and I was like, hmm, I was thinking about getting three different bottles that I could pour and compare. I do think that it would be a tad bit overkill for this episode. Would I be happy? Yes. Would I be happy the following week? Probably not as much when I was having to pay those, you know, those, those bills. But um, one of the things is I understand that. I understand that going big and going home, and then you're like, you're stuck at home and you're having a hard time with that, you know. But I want to ask you this like, how did you go about doing it once you decided to make that transition, you know?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, no, it was it was really interesting. So I was working at a winery tasting room, and they allowed me to make some wine there. So, first and foremost, I found a place and is um they were very kind, charged me a very nominal fee. Um, I had been fortunate that I had over the years in retail met a lot of winemakers and listened to a lot of winemakers and heard a lot of things that they talked about and had read a lot of books. And so I decided I wanted to make Pinot Noir because of that um that first roccioli experience. And and I'd even become something of a California Pinot Noir aficionado. We brought in small producers into Texas that weren't available. So I decided I wanted to do that, and one of the things I knew was that Pinot Noir tends to be very yield dependent. If you have too many grapes out there, the the quality of the wine um will diminish pretty quickly. So I went to a found a place that would sell me grapes. I went, I actually looked at like four different places, but I found a guy who made his own wine and it was good. It wasn't flawed in any way, but it just seemed like it needed more concentration. So I went to the guy and said, I would like to buy one acre's worth of your grapes, which is a very different way than most grapes are sold. Most grapes are sold by the ton or by the pound. I mean, you pay for the quantity. I to me that incentivizes the grower to get as many tons per acre, as many pounds per vine as you can. I went and said, I want to buy an acre's worth of grapes, and then I want to be involved in the farming process. I want to walk out there. I don't want to feel guilty if I've got clippers in my hand and I see a cluster I don't like, I want to be able to clip it to the ground. Um, I didn't really know particularly what I was doing, but I do know that with um grape growing is not so different from say growing like tomato plants, where they might put out too many tomatoes and you take some of them off and the rest will be better. It's something akin to that. So I did that. I got really good grapes. I got very fortunate that 1994, that first year was an exceptional year. I brought the grapes into the winery and just kind of let them make themselves. Um, I bought good barrels, good um new French oak and and used French oak. Uh and then I I let it make itself. And so then it's the spring of that following year. I brought in the grapes in like late September, early October, spring of the following year. I'm tasting friends on it. Like Sean, you come over and you're like, oh, this wine tastes good. Um but you're my friend. You're probably hoping for you know some free bottles or something. So I like um, but one day I heard that Robert Parker, the wine writer, was staying over at Meadowwood, and I had enough to drink um that night to get the courage. And I went and pulled a sample out of the four and a half barrels and left it with the concierge over at Meadowwood, along with a little um a handwritten note and a little Avery label on the sample bottle. And he called up about six weeks later, left a message on the answering machine saying that the wine was terrific, but he lost all the notes on it. And could I fax those over to him? That's how long ago it was with the faxing, which I did, and um it ended up being one of his top 10 Pinot Noirs that year.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Uh that's amazing, man. That's amazing. And the way to go on the initiative, that's one of the things that I absolutely love. Sometimes you have to take those big leaps, you know. But I want to actually, and maybe that answers this next question. Like maybe that was the answer to this next question. Like, what was your first moment when you thought, okay, this might actually work, you know?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

That was around that time where I'm like, okay, this, I mean, I knew I was going to be involved in wine, but there were times where you doubted yourself a bit. Um, that was the moment where it's like, okay, this could really become something. But I do think it's really important. I mean, there was a combination of being lucky, I mean, being good and do it, taking some right steps, but being very lucky that year. Uh, to me, that is a key point in the development of for me and actually for a lot of people and whatever they do, when luck opens a door for you, um, it's what you do from there. I mean, it's walking through and moving ahead. I mean, yeah, we all get lucky, but how do you then move ahead? How does this become more than just the one-off lucky experience?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I 100% agree. Sometimes you have to take those risks and go down that path. Well, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Like, I've been working in media and content for so long, and I hope to build up my podcast, but there's a certain point in time that I hope barrels and roots takes off and this can kind of become more of my full-time thing, you know? And I love it. And part of me has this dream, and I know everyone's like, oh, think about it before you dream it. Like, I would love to make wine because I want to have that same experience, being out in the field. I want to be out there with the plants, I want to be out there seeing it and sharing and telling people stories about what's going on, you know. I I think that there is hard parts, and I know everyone's told me about that. But at the same time, the idea of uh crafting something. One of my favorite things that I've done in my life is raising my daughter. And there will be a day where she is grown and out the door. But the idea of still being able to craft something and shape something that I then release upon the world at some point in time is a beautiful thing to me.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

It it is. And it teaches one a lot of lessons and patience, much like child rearing. I've got three kids. I understand. I mean, there there are um some similarities and crossovers that one sees between them. I think um the goal of making wine is is a wonderful one, and I think it can be done still fairly inexpensively. It takes a while to build it up so that it can become your full-time job. That's a thing, but you can get into making wine in a fairly inexpensive way. But I also think what you're doing here is important as well. I think as wine is somewhat challenged right now. There are less people in the world drinking wine now than there have been in a while. Wine's wine and and actually alcohol as a whole um is kind of in a downward trend for the moment. I think we're kind of bumping along the bottom. But um, I think you know, wine media is important, getting um stories out there, um, telling um because to a large extent, wine as much as I love wine, wine is really about bringing people together.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yes, yes, 100%. That's the reason it's in these giant bottles instead of these little tiny ones, you know? Yep. I I'm with you on that. I and I think that one of the things that's important, and that's why I have this mission, like uh in August and then September, I will be making two trips back to to home to my home in Napa uh to film, filming about harvest, filming about I'm doing a harvest documentary where I'm filming all of these different wineries, all these different locations, and following all of these different uh harvest uh teams for a couple weeks. And and the idea being it's not about the wine, it's about the process of making the wine, of about what goes into the wine. And I think that's because one of the things that I'm I'm kind of answering my next question, but like I think there's a lot that people don't know about the wine-making process. And I wanted to ask you this question what's the hardest part of making wine that people don't see?

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Um, the one thing that people who've come out and occasionally helped with harvest helped us out. Um, the first thing that people don't realize is how much cleaning is involved. I don't know that that's the hardest part, but it's the unexpected part. They picture I love Lucy and stomping around on the grapes, and and I mean, you can't do that. We have done that. But you clean tanks before you put grapes into them. You clean uh barrels before you put wine into them, you clean um tanks after you take the wine out of them. I mean, there's there's just an enormous amount of cleaning because you would like the process to go um uh you would like the wine to show the place, not a poor sanitation. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Truth. Yeah. And that reflection of the vineyard that it came from in your work, not the fact that you didn't clean. So that's one thing that I think people have not expected. Um, for my wife, I can tell you what the hardest part was, and it was actually something that almost stopped her. She she makes her own wine. She started making her own wine in 2021 and has been very, very successful. But she's an evening person, she is a late night person. Um, I'm an early morning person, and wine making by and large is an early morning gig. You want to get the grapes picked early when you come out and do the filming that you're gonna be doing. There'll be a lot of sunrise and maybe even nighttime picks. Um, some places, more places now are doing that than ever before. And so um it's it's an early morning gig. And for her, being a I don't go to bed till one, you know, one in the morning, but I will wake up at eight in the morning. The the winemaking process has already passed you by for that day by 8 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

100%. I am gonna be having my hands full of that and jet lagged at the same time. So I figured the jet lag will probably play to my play my hand well, and I'll just whatever our time it is, we're making it work. It it might play to your advantage. You're right. It might work out. It might work out, but you've made a lot of wine. Uh when did you feel like you really knew what you were doing in that process?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Um, I mean, some years I still question it every now and then with certain things, but um I I would say so I started making Pinot in 1994. In 1995, I I grew the winery and that first 107 cases, 1995. I had an opportunity to get some grapes from Oregon. And so I also started making Oregon Pinot Noir. And um Oregon was really challenging back then, particularly the first three years I dealt with 95, 96, 97, were really difficult years. And um I think I wouldn't tell you that that's when those difficult years helped me learn a lot. And um, I ultimately got Pinot Noir from Oregon, here in Sonoma County where I live, and then down in Monterey and Santa Barbara County. And I would tell people that every harvest for me was like three harvests: Oregon harvest, Northern California, Central California, and those were three different years. So probably in around 99, I mean 99 was a very exceptional, um, fantastic vintage. I kind of started to feel like, hey, I've got some some uh beginning to get a handle on things. But the reason I mention all the different areas is so 94, I only got grapes from one place. 95, it was three different vineyards. By the time I got to 99, I was getting fruit from many different places, uh, a number I grew a bit. So, really, that's probably in the way I count, 10 or 12 vinages in before I really had that feeling that I was beginning to grasp things. And I was able to look at 1999 and say, Wow, I kind of saw something like this in 1995 when you have that first repeat experience because every year is different. And it wasn't exactly the same, but it was like I kind of recognize this. Here's what I did last time, and boy, that didn't really work very well. So I'm gonna do something different this time. Um, or boy, that worked great.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I want to do more of this. Yeah, I love that. I love it, and because it's like you build from that experience, you know. I remember I took this awesome class in leather making, and I got to work with a master craftsman, and he oh, the leather turned this way, we got to do this. And I was like, Well, how did you know that? He's like, I've made you know 10,000 bags, you know, and I'm just like, wow. At some point in time, it's like when you uh have had that experience and that depth of experience, it allows you to make choices that are informed and things begin to flow. I I want to ask you, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah, well, no, and the there are choices that are informed, but sometimes the information is as simple as this didn't work last time. So I am not going to repeat what didn't work. I I will do anything else, but um, but I'm not gonna do that again because it didn't work, and so that at least guides you somewhat.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah, right. I I like that a lot. One of the things that I wanted to ask you though, too, is like, why did you focus on Pinot Noir so much?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

It's really that that first Rocchioli experience um was what caused me to fall in love with Pinot Noir. As far as making it, um it's it's interesting. Pinot Noir is considered to be very difficult. And so the fact that I got into Pinot Noir, people are like, why did you do that? I mean, you never I never took a winemaking class. I took one one-day class at UC Davis about doing my own lab work. And one of the things was you had to look for a color shift in red wine when you were doing lab work, and I'm partially colorblind, so I wasted my $250 on that class because I couldn't tell that. Um uh, but uh with Pinot, I there was a winemaker, he's passed away now, so I feel comfortable saying it, but um he said he used to tell me, don't tell anybody this, but Pinot Noir is not really difficult, it's demanding, and that there is a difference between difficult and demanding. Pinot Noir requires you to do everything you can to try to make a great wine, sometimes just to make an okay wine. With with Syrah, which I've made um to some extent with Cabernet, oh, you can say I'm gonna make a less expensive wine, I'm gonna cut some corners and still do pretty well. With Pinot, when you start cutting those corners, it doesn't work. So, really, it forces you down a path of making, trying to make great Pinot Noir, just sometimes to make pretty good Pinot Noir. But that makes it easier. What difficult to me would be if the grapes didn't respond the same way, if it was just all over the place, then that's that's difficult. Pinot is is not that way.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

That's interesting to me. And difficult, uh demanding not difficult is a great way to describe things. I can think about many people in my life that also have that label.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

So right? And and and with people, the thing there is one has to change your attitude a little bit. It's like um to come to them, boy, this person is demanding. And if you view that as difficult, then you're gonna have a bad relationship with that person. But if you just view that as this is requiring a lot of me, that's then you might develop a great deep relationship.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

With that person. Right? Well, I want to ask you another question here. The last question. If someone listening wanted to get into wine or even become a winemaker, where should they start?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Um, again, I think you start by tasting wine, certainly. Um, but I think if someone wants to become a winemaker, um ask people like myself. I mean, I'm I'm very open. I I, you know, it's Adam at Clear Eastwine Company.com. Drop me an email. I can point you in directions. I can point you towards harvest jobs. I can maybe find some people who say, hey, come out and be willing to work for a couple of days, be willing to work for a week. I mean, try your hand at it to see what it's like. Um, I mean, expect to, you know, long hours get sticky and um and dirty, but you know, jump into that. Um, come like you're coming out in uh to in September, August and September to see harvest um while maybe you don't even have that ability to work. It that's gotten harder. I mean, we used to have a lot of volunteers, and these days with OSHA requirements and other things, it's gotten harder just to bring in somebody and say, hey, will you help? But um, but there are things that you can still do. But I think going to any wine region, I mean, it there is wine in all 50 states, there's wine in so many places around the world. Um, go to an area during harvest and experience it. See if it if it's interesting to you. Go visit some wineries and and notice the hustle and bustle and the trucks coming and going. And um, and if you're excited by it, then then take the next step and see what you can do. I also think one of the things that can work really well. I had a guy who used to work for me at Austin Wine and Spirits, and he worked just on Saturdays. He worked for IBM, but he came in and he worked on Saturdays um in part to get a discount, but he worked in a wine store pretty much for very little money, certainly compared to what IBM. I wasn't paying him what IBM were paying people. Um, but it opened him up to a world of wines and he enjoyed talking to people. And sometimes it was just cleaning up around the store, but you enjoy hearing people discuss wine, volunteer to do that. That's that's a good way as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I love that. I love all that. Where can people again go? You you said a little bit about that, but where can people go to find out more about you and what you do? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

So um I have two websites really. Um, Clarice Wine Company. Clarice was my grandmother. I named my winery after her. Um, she was kind of my best friend growing up, and she taught me to cook. And so I wanted to um pay some homage to her. But you can also go to Adam Lee Wine, A-D-A-M-L-E-E, Adam Leewine.com, and that tells kind of my story. It shows not just the Clarice wines, but other things that I'm involved with, including my wife's wines. And um that's a good place. And there you can reach out directly to me. Uh, my wife and I, we don't have any employees. There's nobody that that um works for us, which means that if something goes really well, we pat ourselves on the back, and when we screw up somebody's order and ship them, you know, all Chardonnay instead of Pinot, we're the ones that have to make up for it. I mean, you know, that's the the joy of it just being us. But you will get in touch with us directly. You will hear from me or my wife Marie, and um we're we're it. We're a two person show.