The HiFi Five Podcast

The Hi-Fi Five Episode 24: Component Selection and System Building

• Hi-Fi Five • Episode 24

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Episode 24:  Component Selection and System Building

Ron Resnick (moderator):  WhatsBestForum

Danny Kaey:  EMM Labs, Sonic Flare, HiFi Reviewer

Doug Schneider:  SoundStage

Peter Noerbaek:  PBN Audio

Mike Lavigne:  prominent audiophile hobbyist

Welcome to The HiFi Five -- a weekly news and roundtable discussion show about all things high-end audio.

This show is a candid, freewheeling, behind-the-scenes look at the high-end audio industry.  We're going to give you insights, opinions and perspectives, while also discussing components, music, system-building and how to get the most out of your audio system.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the 24th episode of the High Five Five. I'm Ron Resnick. Please like this video, and if you haven't done so, please subscribe to the channel. My guests tonight are recurring panelists Danny Kay of EMM Labs and Sonic Flare. I'm delighted to see Danny back for this episode. Doug Schneider, founder of Soundstage, the world's largest group of audio and music websites. Peter Norbach, founder of PBN Audio, which makes dynamic driver loudspeakers, horn loudspeakers, electronics, and reconditions vintage turntables. And Mike Levine, one of the best known audiophile hobbyists in North America. Tonight we truly are back to the Hi-Fi Five. Good evening, gentlemen. Hello, it's been a while. Hello. How's everybody tonight?

SPEAKER_01

It's been a blinking minute, Ron.

SPEAKER_03

Question number one: Before an audiophile buys his or her first serious, how can a person figure out what sound subjectively he or she likes and wants from the stereo? How does somebody deal with that threshold question? What sound am I looking for? Doug.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, hitting me first. What sounds natural, 100%, is, and I always tell people that even the most novice listener knows what a voice sounds like. Find a good vocal recording. I could name a few, Tracy Chapman, that famous album. And buy what sounds natural, not what so what sound is is what's real, what's realistic. And go from there. That to me is there's no sound other than the sound you're trying to reproduce and reproduce, reproduce it as authentically as possible.

SPEAKER_01

Danny. And then have a friend do it, your partner, your wife, husband, whatever, and do the same thing and listen to how the sound changes as you move within the room, starting in a corner, going into the middle of the room, back into a corner, to the side, to the left, and really closing your eyes and learning to perceive sound stage and dimensionality, resonance, and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Oscar. Pete.

SPEAKER_05

And then how close can you get to that with the system you're putting together? Would be my first recommendations. Actually, very few people nowadays go and listen to live music, and they should, because that's what we're trying to recreate. So that would be my first recommendation. Go listen to live music, hear what it really sounds like, and then you will kind of know you have a reference. Because if you only ever listen to music on um earbuds or an iPhone or whatever, you have no reference of what real music can sound like.

SPEAKER_00

Mike. You know, what what's what's uh uh distinctly clear to you, you know, and I mean that's just a starting point, and that's all. And then you just go from there.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like a lot of people who are beginning in the hobby go into a a high-end audio dealer and don't know what they what sound they want, and they hear what they hear at the high-end audio dealer and think, oh, this must be what it's supposed to sound like. So, okay, this must be what I'm supposed to like. And they buy a modern system, and maybe they wind up loving it forever, but maybe over time they say, you know, this wasn't, I don't know if this is really my cup of tea. So my suggestion is before you buy a big system, listen to lots of different types of systems, and by lots of different types. I don't mean CH on Magico versus Dagostino and Wilson. I mean different types like listen to horn speaker, listen to big box speakers, listen to small box speakers, listen to some dipole planers, listen to tubes, listen to solid state, and really try to get a sense of what you personally like. That's my suggestion.

SPEAKER_01

I think to to add to that, Ron, um I think one other important element to that is that you can even take it a step further because realistically speaking, by the time your speakers, whichever ones you may have heard, wherever you may have heard them in whichever environment, chances are they're probably not going to sound anything like that in your own four walls, right? Even if it's exactly the same speaker, exactly the same model. The this ultimately the the ultimate arbiter of sound in your in your own four walls is going to be the interaction of the speaker with your room. And so, you know, I to add to that, again, I I would just encourage people to really try to listen to as many different systems in as many different homes and or environments as you possibly can.

SPEAKER_03

Let's say somebody knows in theory the sound he or she wants. How does somebody connect that subjective sonic preference to particular components? How does somebody know which components are going to satisfy the uh sonic preference they believe they have? Uh, Pete.

SPEAKER_05

You don't. Uh it's all about system integration, uh, how the system integrate with the room, how the components integrate with each other. And you can have a certain speaker, you can put one amplifier on it, it sounds fantastic. You can put another amplifier on it, and it doesn't sound that great. And so it's you should listen to somebody that knows what they are doing. That's like get a mentor on how you put together a system. It should not necessarily be a dealer, because there's always when you deal with a dealer, there's always the the um bias that the dealer has. Well, I make this work together. But like go to your friends, listen to their systems, and and say, hey, this works really well together. Uh that's kind of the only way you can do it.

SPEAKER_00

Mike. Well, I I think we can all hear, but we have to learn how to listen. And and and it does take practice. Uh, you know, you find a system where you're connecting a little bit, and then you just you just have to listen to a lot of music. Uh and and then over time you you start identifying, you know, as you listen to more systems, the sound with this piece of equipment or this sound with this piece of equipment. But it's just it's just a lot of listening. And over time you you develop you you you hear more into the music with practice, and and uh, you know, your I mean depends on your your how you how you came to become an audiophile and what sparked you to do that and and you know just follow your follow your your your intuition into it. I think it's kind of that's the way I look at it.

SPEAKER_03

Danny, how does somebody connect up a believed preference to particular components?

SPEAKER_01

Gosh, I mean that's I think that's almost for a beginner, that's almost like a completely overloaded question, right? I think that for for a novice or someone who's just now getting into this and and trying to figure things out, um you know, look, at the end of the day, listening is an experience, right? It's it's it's an emotional experience for all of us, one way or the other, no matter what music you listen to. And I think to ask a person that's just getting started to kind of figure out, hey, should I listen to the shit amp? Should I listen to the tube amp? Should I listen to um you know uh a solid state amp, a vFET amp, a MOSFET amp. I've saw I've seen uh a couple of the comments. Um that's complete overload for people, right? So I think it's it comes down to look, you gotta learn how to walk before you can run. I love Peter's comment actually. Find yourself a mentor. I mean, that's really how I got started too, right? Um get a mentor who really knows this stuff, who's been around the block a couple of times. And then even if you may not agree with him, it doesn't matter. It's just you know a perspective of someone who can guide you and offer you suggestions. Uh, because I can guarantee you, none of that stuff is gonna matter once you have it in your own house because it's gonna sound totally different. Doug, what do you advise people?

SPEAKER_02

I I go along with what Peter was saying there about a system approach. I don't look at it as individual components. And in fact, one thing I wanted to say last time because it kept coming up the sound of an amplifier. An amplifier doesn't make any sound. What makes a sound is a speaker. And what you are hearing is the combination of the amplifier driving the speaker. That's what you're hearing. The sound is coming out of the speaker. And it's not true that all amplifiers sound the same in the sense of they don't make a sound, but they interact perhaps with the speaker differently. Likewise, less so a preamp and an amp interaction, less so. And then up in your source components, let's say you have a turntable, how that turntable cartridge tone arm behaves with the phono stage it's driving, it's an interaction as a system. So, this idea that that uh many audio files, many reviewers have, oh, I heard the sound of this amp, I heard this, that's not true at all. What you heard is the component operating as part of a system. And particularly, this is why I always believe that the amplifier and the speaker should be thought of as one. And I'm not talking about wireless speakers, but it makes a good case for active speakers because how the amplifier drives the loudspeaker realizes the potential of the loudspeaker. And you get a tube amp that I've never found any tube amp in existence that can realize the potential of many, many loudspeakers, for example. And so you get different interactions and different results. So it's more a system approach.

SPEAKER_03

Question number three: should a beginner start with speakers and build the system around the speakers, or might a beginner start with an amplifier and find an appropriately matched amplifier? Or do you think a beginner should start with the source? Danny.

SPEAKER_01

Nah. It's always me. Um, I think so. I I first of all, I like what Doug said. Um, again, my only comment to that is, you know, if you look at it, the speaker and the amp approach being together, that sort of in my mind presumes that you've already advanced to the stage where you can make those judgment calls, right? I think for for someone truly getting started and and finding his way into this hobby is to um focus on on a pair of speakers. It's it's generally speaking, for most people, I think it's the biggest purchase they will make as far as physicality, whether it's even if it's a bookshelf speaker or a standbout or something, or obviously a floor standing speaker, um, it's it's generally going to be the most expensive thing that they're gonna spend money on, whatever that amount may be. And it's the one thing that's really ultimately the final arbiter of what your system is gonna sound like in your room, in your own four walls, because the the speakers are gonna couple to the room, and that's what's going to produce the sound. And um, you know, in the interest of you know, obviously saving yourself money, time, effort, etc., again, audition as many speakers as you possibly can. See if you know the dealer will, you know, I think any reputable dealer in this day and age will not shy away from you know loaning you a pair of speakers to try out in your own four walls, and uh and start with that.

SPEAKER_03

Mike, what do you advise a beginner to start with?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think it's variable based upon your budget. At the entry level, these days, with the digital being so good at the entry level and so reasonably priced, uh, and I don't want to give an arbitrary dollar amount, but at the end at the beginning, I think 90% of your budget could be speakers, and you might be able to run it with your phone even. I mean, I I know that's overkill, but but so so at the lowest level, you know, really the the speaker is gonna be 90% of what you're hearing. Okay, and and and and so the sources are very cheap. As you go up in dollars, then you're gonna start moving part of your budget more into sources or a preamp, maybe do an integrated. So, and then as you go farther up, then it's it's an open, you can't really make rules. So, but at the at the at the at the beginning, um, you know, you're better off getting a$8,000 speaker investment and a$2,000 digital because it's it's very good, very cheap. So, and the speaker room interaction is gonna be almost all of what you're hearing. That's that's really where, you know, and then as you as you go up, you you add more for amplifiers, and then that starts to make a difference. So, so that's what I recommend. A lot of people ask me, and that's what I tell them. Doug.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I'm gonna go back to the uh amplifier speaker. Uh, and I will say that, and and part of that is what Danny said, how then the speaker couples with the room is the other part of that equation. So I would say you want to settle on the speakers you want, you want the amplifier to drive it correctly. Okay, and then you get room placement and stuff. So I would look at the speakers and amplifiers. However, um, exactly what Mike said, uh, inexpensive digital is very, very um um easy to get and also very high performing. However, if somebody wants a vinyl-based system, now the rules are different because a$200 nap can get you by, a$200 turntable cannot. It's gonna sound like crap. Okay. And that great pair of speakers is gonna sound lousy. Uh analog does not get good till well past$1,000. Okay. And I warn people, you better, if you really want to hear that record sound decent, pay way more than a thousand bucks for a turntable. Otherwise, you're way better off staying with digital. You can get great two, three, four, five hundred dollar DACs. You can't get a great five hundred dollar turntable. So it kind of at the front end, it depends what the person wants. But again, the speaker amplifier together, how it fits in the room is another thing, but I would start there. But the turntable, if you want to go that route, is a big consideration.

SPEAKER_05

Peter. Um, I would say start with speakers in and in what room you're gonna put them. That's gonna be the most important thing. If you were gonna put it in a you know, eight by ten bedroom, obviously you don't want you know big floor standing speakers. Um then I would concentrate on source. If you're only gonna go digital, that's been said uh by all the other panelists, you can buy a very good DAC for 300 bucks. Um once you if you want to go vinyl, then it's a different ball game, as was said earlier. Also, uh, I will not agree with that you cannot buy a good turntable for 500 bucks because you can actually buy a good use vintage direct drive Japanese turntable on eBay for 500 bucks and then put a contracts on it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

New and there you can actually for 500 bucks get something that is spectacularly good.

SPEAKER_03

Question number four if somebody has a fixed budget, which almost everybody does, where should the largest share of that budget go? It sounds like we all agree the largest share should go to the loudspeakers. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05

I agree. Yep, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Uh, question five. What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when purchasing the first set of system components? Mike.

SPEAKER_00

Overspend on pretty boxes, uh electronics, um, and uh not not put enough thought into uh speakers in the room. So I mean, but we're talking pretty entry. So if you if you move up a notch, uh then the next mistake is not recognizing um you know what do you want to build your system around. Because maybe you can't get to the level you want to be with every component, but you know, what is what's the keeper? You know, and understanding why that would be the keeper in your system and and and and then you're gonna raise the other things around it as you go along. So so system building, you know, and and you know, hopefully you you maybe you get a mentor or or you learn a little bit and and you kind of have a plan. Um, although sometimes as you listen and your taste change, the plan changes, but at least you know you want to try to be linear and not and not uh or or and the other mistake is if you buy something that's not that's not sellable, you're kind of stuck. It then it sets you back in your in your process. So so it's just uh just having some some logic in your in your plan, and and so that's my that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_03

Peter, you manufacture entire systems basically. What do you see sometimes as first timers uh making a mistake?

SPEAKER_05

Um the the mistake I see most times and where people you can see people have been talked into a bunch of pretty boxes, and uh then six months later you see the system put up for sale, used, and it sits in a room, and you can see they have spent mega, mega, mega dollars. I mean, I I sell fairly expensive systems, and you can see the customer has spent a lot of money on the system, and uh it sits in a room that's completely not suitable for it, and uh then they they have lost interest and then they want to off it. So um buying a system from somebody that do not have your uh musical interests or your listening interests in mine, but only want to sell your boxes, that is the biggest mistake I've seen people make where they have lost a lot of money.

SPEAKER_01

Danny. Um pretty much all of the above. I think um I I would even go so far as saying that uh honestly, you know, look at look at the used market first, right? Before committing to a mega buck system, uh, and and spending gobs of money on on you know brand names and marketing. It I call it the uh the the the the wife shoe syndrome or or handbag syndrome, right? She walks into Beverly Hills Rodeo Drive, and uh oh, you know, there's Louis Vuitton, there's Hermes, there's you know, whatever, there's there's uh a Gucci, there's this, there's that. Um, and you know brand names, uh look, brand names are important in the sense that they give you stability, they give you an affirmation uh that your investment is going to be somewhat protected in the sense of service and support. Um I I don't know of a single audiophile who ever bought a piece of gear and then sold it for more than they bought it for. Um, so you know, the the the used market I think is a great place to start. Um and again, you know, biggest mistake spending too much money too quickly.

SPEAKER_05

I I have a very funny story about that. This goes back probably in close to 20 years, and we sold a speaker system to uh uh a local guy in Southern California and one of our large systems. And I tried to sell him amplifiers too, but he was like, No, I'm not quite sure. And I said, and he said, Well, how am I gonna get them serviced later? And I said, Well, I mean, as long as I'm not croaked, you can get them serviced. And he ended up going with uh a company from Connecticut buying amplifiers, and it it was like six or seven of them. And uh three or four years later, um the amplifiers had failed, and the company was on the brink. And who ended up servicing them? I did.

SPEAKER_03

Classic. What do you think is the biggest mistake first timers make?

SPEAKER_02

So I think when you're saying mistake, they end up with something they don't like, right? That's what you're saying by mistake, right? And I think this goes to um buying it without really liking it. So maybe not listening enough, taking someone else's advice, but you should be pretty sold on it. Whenever I'm going to buy something, I wanna be sold on it. I wanna have enough demo when I'm there, rushing into it, whatever. Basically, the biggest mistake is buying without being really, really sold on it, that this is. And that means listening to it when you uh are buying a stereo system, and it means really liking what you hear, whether that's in the store. It's gonna sound different at home, but you have to be sold on it there.

SPEAKER_03

I think the biggest mistake I see people making is being overly attracted to detail and resolution and hearing little teeny things in their favorite recordings they never heard before. And I think it's easy to enjoy that, but maybe that doesn't do keep them in good stead over the longer term time frame, where I think people should really focus more on uh listening enjoyment and uh emotional engagement to the music they love, not necessarily the very easy to focus on detail, uh crispness, and and hearing things you never heard before. Danny, how much should a beginner worry about the room before buying equipment?

SPEAKER_01

Actually, one more comment on on uh the question before, even though it would sound uh to use a long, large word. No, I'm just kidding. Um, even though it would sound reasonable, don't pay attention to reviewers. No, no, no disrespect, Doug. Um, I agree. Don't listen to the reviewers. Uh, they've got ulterior motives, they're all over the place. You know, listen for yourself, anyway. Um, how much yeah, 100%?

SPEAKER_02

No, I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree with you.

SPEAKER_01

I and I know you wouldn't. I I knew you wouldn't. Um, how much should they take the room into account? Uh 100%, absolutely all of it, uh, without a question. In fact, uh uh to use uh a recent example, a friend of mine here locally in Maine, um that I met about a year and a half ago, we've become great friends hanging out, listening to music together and stuff. He he's a newbie and he wants to get into to uh to the uh audiophile game. And um he lives in a beautiful um old uh building uh in a loft, and uh the room is he needs treatment. And so, you know, the very first thing that I told him is like, look, man, we're gonna have to spend some some coin and some time developing a room treatment plan before you can even get speakers in the room, right? Um, because I again, what's the point of spending five, ten, fifteen, twenty thousand dollars on a pair of speakers and putting them in a room, and you know it, you as the seasoned mentor to that mentee knows for a fact that that's gonna sound like crap. Uh, you know, look, look no further on Instagram or or or you know, obviously YouTube, TikTok, you know, and my feed uh posts pop up all the time of you know elaborate systems uh in in rooms. And I'm like, look, I I don't even have to set foot in this room. I know this is not gonna sound great. It's just not. It's not an Air Mez bag that you can plunk you know 50k cash onto and then just you know put it on your wife's uh um elbow and prance around with it and think that that that's it. Um it really is going to have a detrimental impact to the sound quality if your room is not properly treated or properly acoustically set up to handle a speaker of any kind. Like rant over, rant, rant, rent, rent, rent.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I have a little I have a little different take on that. And I think the first thing it depends on whether we're talking about a beginner or not. Okay, so if you're beyond a beginner, it's kind of a different situation. But if you're a beginner, to me, the biggest thing is what's gonna let you listen. So if you have a house and you're you know, you got a partner or wife or whatever, and and and where are you gonna be able to actually listen? And and and how do you want to listen? What's your lifestyle? So so I think finding a room, a space for your own where you can actually listen is even more important than a great room if if if if you're not gonna really be able to listen. So so that you got to work through that part first. You know, kind of availability is more important than talent, in a sense, you know, is my my point. Uh, you know, beyond that, uh for sure, you know, you need to understand your speakers in your room, and and certain speakers are way easier to deal with marginal rooms and that sort of thing. So maybe you gravitate toward a speaker that's not as room dependent, and that all of a sudden makes your room, or you go with a two-way instead of something that that that's got a big bottom end because that's gonna work better in your room. So that's kind of stage two. Stage one is how can I listen?

SPEAKER_03

Doug.

SPEAKER_02

Um, two things. Um, yeah, so sorry, a bit of a cough. Um, I wouldn't get somebody not to buy a stereo because they have a bad room. If you want to listen, you want to listen and you get a good system, and you're gonna have to uh live with certain compromises. However, the room should very much take into consideration, it comes back to what Peter said, the size of the speaker and the room. Many people do not consider that. And we've had um reviewers in the past, I would say, don't buy those speakers. I know you think the most expensive one in the line is the best because it's the most expensive. You've got way too small a room and they buy it, and it sounds bad, and then they go, Oh, I should have listened because you know, more is better, and then stuff like that. So the room, go with what you have. Yes, you got to be able to listen to it, might be compromised. Don't let that stop you from buying a stereo, but then appropriately size your system for the room. Don't have a little system in a giant room. I have a giant room uh behind me up here, and I wouldn't put a couple two-ways up here because they wouldn't be able to charge up the room enough. Down in my living room, that's a different story.

SPEAKER_01

But but here's an interesting anecdote, right? Here's an interesting thing to point out. So, for example, um, up here in in, as I call it, studio A, uh, which is 15 by 30, I've got my Wilson Alexia V's, right? Downstairs in Studio B, I've got a pair of uh Devore 096s. Uh the room downstairs is gosh, what uh 30 by 40, somewhere around there, 30 by 45. Those speakers are perfectly capable of powering that room and creating room-filling sound with ease. So again, you know, yes, completely agree with you, Doug, 100. But I also want to caution people that look, you have to put the damn speaker into the room to be able to evaluate what it's gonna listen sound like.

SPEAKER_02

I agree with that, Peter.

SPEAKER_05

Uh, we were talking about the room. Yes, how much you'd have to do. How much would you have to do it? Well, I mean, when you're a beginner, uh the room is probably not your first consideration. Uh, you will put it in your living room, you will put it in a spare bedroom, whatever. If you put it in your living room, you're gonna have to make sure that your wife or whoever lets you let you play it when you want to play it, and many times they don't, so that's when you get um moved to a separate sound room, and then your system can evolve. I mean, that's typically what happens with my customers, you know, they start with a smaller, smaller system, and then um the system evolves and the room gets better, the system gets better. Uh so as far as the beginner uh paying attention to the room, he should, but it will never be his first consideration. I agree that it's sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sorry, it's not realistic to expect the beginner to be able to navigate the room very well. You know, that's why you're not sure. Which brings back the whole mentor thing, right? Yeah, if they if they know enough to to find a mentor, you know, very true.

SPEAKER_01

You don't know what you don't know until someone tells you otherwise.

SPEAKER_05

You don't know which whether the the the hi-fi uh groups and clubs uh could be a good idea. Uh sure. And most of the hi-fi clubs, I've done many presentations at the hi-fi clubs, and uh it's mostly uh elderly men that are a member of these groups, and it would be nice to get some new people coming in. Yeah, by the way, you could learn you could you could learn a lot from those people that have been in it for a very long time. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Can I just say a theme came up for a future episode, Ron? My wife used this living room system, it's a big system all the time. The key is it isn't like she loves it. The key is make it usable. And how do you make hi-fi usable? And that's a problem with many of these systems. These guys have these unusable systems, make the system usable, and everybody.

SPEAKER_01

Uh Ron, real quick, uh, Patrick made a comment. Um, beginner usually means limited appetite for expense. Highlight that for a second, if you don't mind. Uh, you know, you're absolutely right, Patrick. And you know what? Shame on the industry for not having taken that into account and into consideration, and you know, sort of keeping the the speaker part separate from all of the room treatment. And and you're absolutely right. The the room treatment factor is a complete afterthought. Hey, look, many times you're lucky in life and you end up with a room that if you populate it with enough furniture, with enough carpeting, uh, you know, art on the wall, this, that, and the other, it's gonna sound pretty decent, right? Um, I was certainly lucky. I mean, Ron visited me when we used to live in LA many times, and I had absolutely zero room treatment uh in our living room. And the system sounded fantastic, absolutely fantastic, world class, I would say, right? When I moved here uh in specifically into studio A and and built this out, I literally, when it was all said and done, the final coat of paint was struck. I literally nearly fainted because the room sounded absolutely dreadful, like horse poop. I mean, seriously. And I I I I stood in here and I'm like, good lord, what did I blow all this money on? They're never gonna be able to fix this. Well, fortunately, the Vicoustic team stepped in, uh, and and you know, shout out to to the engineers at Vicoustic and and their proprietary room software and all the stuff that they use. Because, you know, the guy, you know, I sent them the first measurements, and and he kind of laughed and chuckled when I said, Oh my god, you know, I I really don't know that you guys can fix this. Guess what? They fixed it. Not only did they fix it, it sounds freaking amazing. So, but again, for a novice, complete afterthought. So, anyway.

SPEAKER_03

I do want to say that the magazines I think can be very interesting, entertaining reads. And I think magazine reviews, whether it's online magazine or print magazine, it's a great way for people to learn about components they might not have heard about before. Uh, it might, you know, if it's a reviewer who is consonant with your personal preferences, it might give you an idea. Oh, you know what? You know, I think I should check that out after all. So I think the magazines and online and print have a wonderful purpose, and I think they do help even beginners to at least alert people to components of which they might not have otherwise been aware. Question seven.

SPEAKER_02

Don't take them as gospel, and I'm this is coming from a reviewer. Don't take it as gospel, take it as information to feed in with everything else. And this is coming from a guy who runs magazines.

SPEAKER_03

Fair enough. That sounds right to me. Question seven. As you think about the evolution of your personal stereo, did you ever make a wholesale change of topology of components? Did you ever go from a an all-tube system to an all-solid state system, mostly solid state to mostly tube? Did you ever change completely the topology of the speaker, going from a horn speaker to a box or a planer to a box? Doug.

SPEAKER_02

Not really, but I will say when I was younger before, because I've been I've been doing this now since 1980. When I was younger and you don't know much technically and stuff, you tend to get bamboozled by a lot of stuff. So you start seeing this, seeing this, and all this magic is gonna come in. So that did happen a little bit, though I didn't make a wholesale change, but I tried tubes, I tried panels, I tried all that type of stuff. And as I learned more and more, the fluctuations became less um violent. And I just started, okay, this is the kind of component I want. This is the limitations of that kind of component and that. So on a learning curve, but I wouldn't say a wholesale change. I didn't go from, oh, I need this to oh, I need that, but little evolutions in the in the gear along the way.

SPEAKER_03

Peter, how about yourself, your personal system at home?

SPEAKER_05

Uh well, um I typically have two systems in my room uh with one set of speakers. I have my own electronics, um SolidState, MOSFET, uh, JFET. Um, and then I have an add-on to that, I have a tube system so that I can demonstrate my speakers with both solid state and tube. And the way I do that is, you know, typically I have all the the um front end components on either my left or my right side, depending on the room. And uh on the fr on the front wall I have speakers and then amplifiers on the floor, and tube amps and solid state amps, and several of each. And so if you want to listen to the tube system, you just flop the speaker leads on the amplifiers, and then the rest of the chain is ready to go. So um personally, I have mostly always had dynamic loudspeakers. Uh in the later years, probably about 10 years or so ago, I went more from the typical hi-fi driver setup, you know, SkeinSpeak, Viva CRs, and all that. And I went to more Pro style drivers. So I use a lot of drivers from the company in North Fridge, California. And uh I get some of their uh older drivers, I buy them out from touring companies, and I completely refurbish them into uh as new drivers. And like for an example, I saw a guy comment on our M2.5 speaker system. I probably sold 100 pairs of those in the last 10 years or so, and um uh so I have gone more from hi-fi into pro drivers being used for hi-fi. And um the ones of you that are heard my systems at shows, they can be pretty spectacular, even in big rooms.

SPEAKER_02

And I would guess you went along that route because you found that the pro side, because I have found many designers doing this, the drivers are higher output, they tend to create a more lifelike presentation, they tend not to be limited like many of the hi-fi drivers, right? Hi-fi drivers often seem like toys in comparison to some of these drivers.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, exactly. I mean, you know, I deal with drivers with four-inch voice coils and you know, 15-inch and 18-inch uh uh domes. In our biggest system, we have uh 12 18-inch drivers, uh two 12-inch drivers, and a six-inch ribbon, and that will pressurize almost any room.

SPEAKER_02

And that that is that is kind of why you made the change because you're not the first designer I've encountered.

SPEAKER_05

Well, no, I mean it's just like uh it just sounded more real. Like you you get something say, hey, I'm gonna try this, and then you try it. It's like, holy crap, this sounds real. And as I said, I use a lot of drivers from uh the North Fridge Company, and um uh you can say the company, no, I can't JBL.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we will JBL.

SPEAKER_05

No, I can't.

SPEAKER_01

We just some Lansing guy and some other B guy and some other J guy.

SPEAKER_05

But um uh that was kind of like so. I have both tube and solid state. I play probably 95% vinyl and five percent digital.

SPEAKER_03

Mike.

SPEAKER_00

Well, in in 2001, um I'd had uh solid state and and low efficiency uh dynamic speakers for seven years, and uh I kind of got bored with it and I switched to uh OTL tubes and a much more efficient, much more coherent uh speaker system. So and and and that reference from that time is kind of still my reference. So that's so I had seven years with with uh with uh let's say the dark side or however you want to describe it. And then uh and then I uh I I I changed. So uh so that was then. That's my uh that was my that was my time to do that.

SPEAKER_03

So what prompted you later to switch to almost entirely solid state with the Dart Seal components?

SPEAKER_00

Well, without getting too deep into it, uh I felt like the Dart Seal was uh was very near the tenor audio OTLs, which which I loved. And and the Dart Seal didn't blow up like the tenors did. So uh so so and and and but I but I but I continued to to enjoy the the karma speaker and and the uh the the drivers that they used in subsequent speakers that I owned. So but it but that tenor audio uh reference is it I I identified the Dart Seal as as having much of that and and many more things, and maybe just a little bit less of some other things. So I felt like the Dart Seal uh took me forward and and uh I flirted with tubes in the last 20 years with Dart Seal, but uh uh until recently didn't go away. So so I've never lost my love. I consider myself a tube guy that loves to that that that owns solid state that resembles tubes. So that's that if that answers the question.

SPEAKER_03

Danny, in the audio laboratory in Long Beach, you had two flagship dynamic driver systems, you had contemporary turntables, vintage turntables, tubes, and solid state. So I don't know how you're gonna answer this question, but let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01

I had it all. Um gosh, you know, I mean, look, when I first uh was so when I first started out with this back when I was in my teens, I had absolutely no money to buy any of this stuff, right? Um, and so it was really just you know listening, going to stores and and telling people up front. I was always very upfront. I was like, hey man, look, I have no money for any of this, I just want to play some music. Do you mind? And uh nine times out of ten, people would let me, right? And I'm talking about this is you know, across the pond uh in in good old Europe as well as here in the States. Um, when I moved here permanently uh in in the late 90s and early 2000s. And you know, when I started uh writing for positive feedback back in 2000, which is hard to believe, it's not 26 years ago. Um you know, I was a young punk. I'm still a young punk, I was a little younger back then. Um, and uh, you know, I tried everything. I mean, I I'm trying to remember. In fact, I think the very first setup that I actually purchased, um, Carrie Audio. Uh, it was one of their preamps and amps. Uh, it was all tube based because I was like, oh man, this tube stuff is so cool. The glowing tubes at night. My wife at the time was, you know, she was into it. It was like, oh, the glowing tubes, etc., etc. And um, you know, it was just it, it it had a certain melody to it, right? You know, again, I was very green, I was still learning, and my my next system was uh was my next system was EAR, um Tim De Paramancini. And then I I I went from that to back to solid state. Uh, I think it was Brinkman that I had got into. Uh, and then I got into Einstein from Germany, and that was all OTL based, uh, two based, obviously, with a uh a tube preamp. Um interestingly enough, they stayed with solid state on the phono side, uh, but they're very much an all-analog company. Uh, they they did have a CD player at the time, and um you know, and and throughout the years, I would get obviously all kinds of equipment in for review from from you know, whatever you name it. I had it, and the Einstein stuff just simply stuck to me in the sense that it was always very wide bandwidth, very dynamic, very untube-like, or generally speaking, all the characteristics that you would normally attribute tube sound to. The Einstein had none of it, so it was very wide bandwidth, open, dynamic, punchy. And then really, you know, uh uh, you know, throughout all that time keeping a friendship with Ed Meitner and um, you know, starting out with his uh EQ1, DS Audio EQ1 back in uh 2020 or 2021, and then getting into the rest of his stuff. Um, it was the first time that I felt like, you know, again, shameless self-promotion, I get it, but still, um, it was the first time that I felt like here's solid state that expands upon the Einstein sound with more power, even more um bandwidth and dynamics, but retains that musicality factor. So I suppose I've and you know, Ron, to your point, you've been to my place. I mean, you've heard it all, what I've had and and and used to have. Obviously, you haven't visited me yet, but um all I can say is uh audio is a journey, and you're on that journey, and I would encourage you to you know find something that you like, uh, you know, stick with it. Um, you know, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Uh, I I've bought and sold so much stuff over the years that I thought was like, oh man, this is the holy grail, this is it. Only six months later, I think Mike even brought that up. You know, six months later it was gone. Um, so yeah, I mean, just do your due diligence. And you know, if there's one advice I have is you know, gosh, spend money on music, right? I mean, I've got 10,000 records, I've got about probably I don't know, 2,000 CDs. Obviously, my my listening is heavily skewed towards records, but buy music. I mean, this is really what this is all about, right? Buy music, listen to music, and um, you know, let the chips fall where the chips fall.

SPEAKER_03

Quick question. With all of your experience with so many different types of components, did you ever venture into either horn loudspeakers or dipole planers, or you've always had dynamic driver boxes?

SPEAKER_01

You know, that is a very uh thoughtful question, Ron. Um, I have listened to all kinds of uh speaker systems. I have never owned anything other than dynamic driver-based loudspeakers.

SPEAKER_03

Question number eight: how does an audio file determine whether a system is revealing and highly resolving and detailed, which all sounds good, or overly bright, edgy, and analytical? Peter.

SPEAKER_05

Uh you listen to it, you hear that almost instantly. I would agree the comment that was made earlier that if the system is like overly detailed, it's it's easy to get um attached to for a little while, but you disengage with that system pretty quickly. Um you will know when it sounds real, and that's when just everything kind of starts gelling together. Um, so overly bright you pick that up, especially if you're trained. It was commented on earlier also that you have to be a trained listener, and that's definitely true. Uh, some of my best customers are um uh professional musicians, like in a classical um in a classical genre, uh violinist from uh Los Angeles and a uh a conductor of uh uh classical orchestras and have made uh many uh recordings for Wilson Audio and stuff like that. Uh Lowell Graham out of uh El Paso, Texas, and uh violinist is Peter Kent out of Los Angeles um plays in in uh Sony Studios and stuff like that. And the ears they have is just incredible. They can hear anything instantly and they can describe what they hear. And those are very nice customers to have because they can guide you in the right direction. Doug.

SPEAKER_02

I think um one of the things that can happen to many reviewers and whatnot is they can confuse what they think is detail or an analytical sound with something else. And this is something I learned over time. There was a uh a British company, I won't uh name them, but uh I know the designers well, and they were using ribbon tweeters for a long time. Now, I don't know if Peter's ever uh experienced this, but ribbon tweeters have a big distortion problem, usually below three kilohertz. Put them in uh in a two-way speaker and you'll get a lot of distortion. Now, you might not identify as distortion, it can sound hard, it can sound this and that, and then and people go, Oh, that's that's just revealing the recording. That's just you're hearing more in. When the first time, and I'll name the name, YG Acoustics sent me their anat monitor. And I'm like, man, that's one hard sounding speaker. Oh no, you're hearing a flat sequency frequency response and stuff like that. Well, we we when we eventually measured it, it had like 5% distortion across the band or something, right? And so what you sometimes mistake as revealing, I hear this hard sound can actually be distortion from somewhere in the chain, or it can be an overly bright tweeter. You know, let's pump up the tweeter and I'm hearing more detail. Are you? You're just pumping up the highs. And so I think it's sussing out what overly detailed is. And what I think is important is it's really hard because if you don't make the recordings, you're not going to really know what the set the sound is. But if you have a set number of recordings, and I have about 10 that I've listened to on so many systems that you know what they sound like.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And you go, you know what, that must be exactly the way that sounds. That sounds very natural, very and when other systems start pumping up this or missing out that or that, you realize there's imbalances. So I think it's sussing out what is really detail and analytical versus a tipped-up tweeter or distortion in the midband or something like that making a hard sound. And then um just knowing your recordings really well. I don't know if that made any sense, but um, I think sometimes the detail and analytical part gets a little bit confused, Danny.

SPEAKER_01

I apologize, I've been uh engaging with the audience on the comment section. What was the question?

SPEAKER_03

How do you tell if something is uh resolving highly resolving and detailed or edgy and bright?

SPEAKER_01

Edgy and bright versus high resolving. How do you tell the difference? God, I mean, again, just listening to stuff, I think, right? I mean, um trying out different combinations, uh you know, uh one of the things that I I you know just randomly, but since I'm so much into vinyl, whenever someone tells me or I see a post or something, oh gosh, this record sounds like it's entirely too bright or or um or not bright enough, I'm like, okay, is your vinyl setup properly set up in first place, right? Um, you know, is is are all the parameters of the cartridge just exactly dialed in? Because if they're not, it's completely going to throw off everything you're hearing. And and yes, it could go from super bright to super dull and and everything in between, right? Oh, I'm only hearing the left channel, I'm only hearing the right channel. So um, you know, uh, yeah, absolutely. The other thing that that frankly, I mean, again, I you know, I think when when Doug was on the first time around a couple of months ago, um, I I had brought this up. In this day and age, I I think one of the fundamentals should also be check your hearing, right? Um, you know, Apple with with uh with their latest software on on their phones and and their airpods have made it so easy to do a medical grade check on your ears. Um it takes five to ten minutes. You'll get a complete snapshot of what you can actually hear. What your ears are actually capable of hearing, I should say. Do that test, right? I've challenged people in the industry to to post their tests. I mean, I've posted mine. Uh, if you look at some of my past videos when I actually review stuff, I always post it with with my my audiogram uh that you can see. Um, you know, I gosh, look, it it we're always assuming everybody can hear equally, and that's really not true, right? As you get older, for men especially, definitively, as proven by biology and science, your hearing degrades dramatically, uh, particularly in the high frequencies. So get an audiogram, get a hearing test. Um, you know, it may not be your front end, it may be your ears.

SPEAKER_03

Mike, how do you distinguish highly resolving from aggressive sounding?

SPEAKER_00

Well, there's there's blatant aggressive sounding, so it's degrees, you know. So if you have reasonable references, something that's really off should jump out at you. You know, I mean, if you if you you know, we're not talking beginners now, uh experienced audiophile with with lots of references, that shouldn't be an issue. But if it's subtle, I think you need to be in touch with how the music's making you feel. And then if you're not connecting, now that should that should spur you, you should you should be checking, you know, are your shoulders relaxed? You know, are are you feeling good? You know, do you want to listen more? Do you want to listen less? So being in touch with how the music's affecting you, and then that would say, hey, you know, because I've had that go on and found a grounding thing disconnected, or this problem, or this problem, where there's something changed, but I the only way I could tell would be it wasn't something that hit me in the face. It's it's just it was just something that I could tell I wasn't connecting in the same level. So being sensitive to your own self, how you feel when things are great, and what it, you know, where the music's taking you. Um, and of course, that can be media, it can be gear, can be, I guess, electrical system, it can be all kinds of things. But but so uh so if if if it's not quite um flowing and and engaging and immersive, uh that would be my my uh for the more subtle issues.

SPEAKER_03

So one little test I use is raising the volume in the system. So you're listening, listening, and then you raise the volume. If merely raising the volume makes you wince or cringe a little bit, that suggests to me that it might be the edgy brightness side and not simply desirable resolution.

SPEAKER_00

That can be very recording dependent, too.

SPEAKER_03

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00

I said that can be very recording dependent, too.

SPEAKER_05

That's by the way, a very good point, Mike. Like how you feel when you listen to the music, that's a very good point.

SPEAKER_00

And that's everything. I mean, really, that's how we do it.

SPEAKER_03

Question nine Should an audio file focus on every aspect of the system equally? If the electrical system seems fine, is there any reason to focus on power conditioners and grounding boxes? Doug.

SPEAKER_02

Um, you got two questions there. There's one thing that's bugged me for years when um on focusing on every part of the system equally, there's this myth in audio that everything matters. No, everything doesn't matter, okay? And not everything matters equally. We've kind of all agreed that loudspeakers make the biggest difference, transducers make the biggest difference, your turntable and stuff like that. So, no, not everything should be focused on equally. And your interaction with the room is a huge aspect. So unequally through the system. Now, what was the other part of the question? Oh, yeah, electrical. This is another problem I have with reviewers. They always want to review power stuff, and they never look at their electrical system. Now, I used to live in a 2 uh set a 22-floor building, and I was on the top floor. It was brownout central, where I couldn't even maintain voltage. I had a voltmeter on my power for my stereo system. So I had a power regenerator and it really worked. When I moved into my house, which I have dedicated lines, everything's grounded correctly, all of that, my power's perfect. I have nothing on my lines. And reviewers in particular want to get some power conditioner in, say, well, blacker backgrounds, more dynamic contrasts and stuff like that. Did you even need it in the first place? If I had a grounding problem, first thing I would do is call the electrician and say, can you check the grounding throughout my electrical thing? Can you put in some dedicated wires? Can we make sure everything's correct? Now, in a 22-floor apartment building, I couldn't do that. So I had to re uh resort to a regenerator. So fix a problem only if you have a problem and get the problem looked at. And you know, electricity is pretty well understood, Danny.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

You don't agree with that?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, completely. I I completely agree. No, no, no, no, I absolutely do. I mean, look, the the thing with with electricity and all that stuff is um, you know, when I look back at at our house in Long Beach, uh, it it it still had the original electrical system in it, and the system sounded fantastic. Uh, Ron can attest to it, um, as well as many others that came, right?

SPEAKER_03

I uh your room is just amazing. That room is just a naturally great sounding room, that whole living room.

SPEAKER_01

You know, you get lucky every now and then, right?

SPEAKER_02

Um, and let me guess, good components with good power supplies and all that, right?

SPEAKER_01

Exactly, exactly. Yes, and and again, you know, it you know, when when when I start talking to people that are newbies and or more advanced, I'm like, look, fundamentally, the you know, any component, be it a a DAC, a preamp, an amp, whatever it may be, the basic fundamentals of any of these components is a power supply. If in 2026 you are unable to create a product with a power supply that is capable of delivering clean, you know, reasonably clean power to your component, uh, or or to your electronics inside your component. You're doing something wrong. I mean, it's all I can tell you, right?

SPEAKER_05

I do not agree. All the crap that is on the power lines nowadays is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01

I know.

SPEAKER_05

Look, I I know there's a lot of crap on the power lines, light dimmers, all that crap. You have no idea what we are buying. Yes, yes, you're absolutely you can you can fix all that, but when you fix all that, you limit the power that goes into your power supply, and you can have the best power supply in the world, and your daughter uses a hairdryer and your amplifier hums. It's it's supposed to be your problem and not the hairdryer's problem.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, all I can tell you is I have absolutely zero hum in any of my two systems that I have. Of course, it does, of course it does. A well-designed system is going to take all that into account.

SPEAKER_02

So I mean you're electrical in your home is probably good, and maybe is not susceptible problems to problems others might have.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you know, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Probably true, right? We're out here in Maine, we're in the middle of nowhere. Um, you know, I've got two dedicated AC lines coming into studio A. Um, I, you know, I have no power conditioning whatsoever running in my system. Uh I don't even have any power conditioning running in the Studio B, which doesn't have any dedicated AC lines. And I still have no hum on my phono. Uh I have no, and Studio B is all two-based. It's it's the Einstein system. Uh, I have absolutely zero hum upstairs. So again, you know, yes, I have I heard systems that have all those issues? Absolutely. Um, are they all the the the the the the flaws of the electrical system coming into it? I I I don't know. I don't know. I mean I know that the US in general has very poor has a very poor electrical power supply in general, very generally speaking. I think Europeans are much more advanced when it comes to that. Uh and and having you know a a stable voltage line. I mean, I I remember way back in our first house. Um gosh, I I you know I I think I measured our voltage at one point at like 104 volts, and it was supposed to be 120. Um, so insane power fluctuations. So, yeah, I mean, take it for what it is.

SPEAKER_03

Mike, does an audiophile have to obsess over every aspect of the system?

SPEAKER_00

Well, um, there's two ways to look at that. Uh, first of all, I think that not particularly, but but but as far as talking about power conditioners and especially separate boxes, um I think there's basics in a system and I think there's cherry on top issues. So I I do think that if you start adding a lot of stuff into your system before you figured out the signal path, then you don't really know what you have. So so adding power conditioners and and and those sorts of things um can confuse making decisions on how the system should be. Okay. On the other hand, if you're gonna be advanced in system development, then as you progress, everything does start to matter. And to go further, then it's all out there to because those you open a door and there's a wall in front of you, and then you open the window, and then you open the door, and then there's behind it, there's another one. So you can keep peeling the onion. So so both are true in that in that you know, you it depends on how far you've gone down the road in in system development. And and it isn't necessarily, but but I think that if you're adding grounding boxes or you're doing this or you're doing that, you know, is it confusing decision making on what's doing what? You know, and so because those things have color a lot of times. So so that's the thing. If you're if you're needing that to fix a problem, do you really know what the real problem is? You know, and and and you know, uh our member Rex, and and then there's uh uh an Ed who have the the company that does the power, you know, the basic power uh uh repairs on on your home power grid, I mean that's where you start. You gotta make sure that's right. And if if you're in a building where you do have restrictions on what you can do, then you know you just gotta do the best you can. So anyway.

SPEAKER_03

Question number 10 Should the different sonic attributes of components be used to offset each other? For example, if you feel you have a slightly fatiguing cleater, should you offset that with a smooth, warm-sounding line stage or amplifier? Peter.

SPEAKER_05

Uh that's one way of looking at it. Yeah, you could do that, certainly. Um that's system matching, and that's where again, like listen to somebody that knows how to put a system together. Um, so certainly, yeah, you can do that. And just to return to uh the prior question, should you concentrate on everything in a system equally? No, you shouldn't. You should concentrate mostly on speakers in the room, then on your front end, then on your preamp, then on your power amp, and on all the power that feeds it. Um and um If you make an amplifier that can deliver maximum power, you want as clear a connection to that to the power source as possible. And then you connect that amplifier to all the crap that's on the line. So if you have a 4 KVA transformer, if it gets excited, it'll make mechanical harm. Not necessarily it won't make harm in the speaker because that's you have a good designed power supply. But what the transformer sees is all the crap that's on the power lines. I run all my systems on fully balanced power, which eliminates all of these issues. And uh typically most of my very high-end customers, we install uh balanced power transformers. Not Equitech? Do you use the Equitech, Peter? Uh no, I I have my transformer company in Canada makes my transformers for me.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_05

So um, like in my own system, I have uh a balanced power transformer for my uh amplifiers, uh, and I have a uh balanced power transformer that feeds my entire front end.

SPEAKER_03

Doug, should we mix and match contrasting components with different sonic attributes to get what you want?

SPEAKER_02

I I think unless you've got state-of-the-art measurement gear and understanding of what you're seeing. If you've got a brake tweeter, just get a new set of speakers. It means you've got a brake tweeter. Going back to the amplifier driving the speaker, that's what the speaker probably sounds like, unless the amplifier can't deliver any bass, you know, frequencies and stuff. So get a new pair of speakers instead of trying to mix and match. You want general neutrality, though with speakers, it's hard to get something that's 100% neutral. Get something that sounds good at the speaker end and get all the components feeding it.

SPEAKER_01

Danny. I completely agree with what Doug said. Um, I you know again, at the end of the day, universally um universally accepted the speakers couple the sound to your room, period. And you know, if if your speaker does one thing, you know, yeah, I mean, I think you can influence it to an extent with the amplifier, uh, and or preamp or DAC or whatever it is you're running uh as your source or intermediary, but fundamentally, I don't think you can influence it to the point where you can make something you can make a chicken into a turkey, it's not gonna work, right? So um, yeah, completely agree with what Doug said. Get a new speaker again, goes back to my original point. Find a mentor, find multiple mentors, listen to as many possible speakers as you can, right? Listen to them in your own house. Ask the dealer, hey, I'll leave you a deposit. Can you set these up for me? Right, because I can guarantee you what you hear in one place is not going to be what's going to be replicated in your own four walls.

SPEAKER_02

Now, we should say though, before you maybe get the speaker, do play with placement and also absorbing it. You know, that could tame everything down.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Well, it's like vinyl setup, right? You know, oh, my vinyl sounds like shit. Well, let's take a look and see. Oh, well, of course it sounds like shit. It's not set up properly. Absolutely.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I know Mike feels strongly about this question.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I mean, every time you balance, you lose information, or you add some sort of coloration sameness. So there's a price to pay for every time that you use a component to balance out some other distortion somewhere else, because that's what it is. So you're just adding more distortions and you're farther away from let's just say the absolute sound or whatever term you want to use. So yeah, I'm now like like uh uh Peter says, unless you measure things, or I'm sorry, Doug, unless you measure things, what's neutral? But you know, in theory, you you can understand what's neutral in in your experience, and then you got to stay there, you got to stay with it, and and uh coloration, there's a price for it. You may like not you may like it, but but it's still it's not a good path to go down, but some people do.

SPEAKER_03

I totally agree. I don't believe in the band-aid concept of trying to put your thumb on the scale of all the other components to correct a sonic problem with one particular component. Music segment, Danny.

SPEAKER_02

Can I add one thing while while um Peter's here? Yep, I will say, Peter, I I like the track you're on, and and this is where I've kind of had a shift in thinking. This big driver pro thing, it's hard to measure, but there's an effortless in the sound of these speakers. And I've got a pair of speakers here, not the same, but they come from Arendel. They got this stack of four woofers, big woofers, wave guide a tweeter, and all that, and there's an effortless to the sound effortless, effortlessness to the sound that traditional speakers and many designers have gone with these narrow speakers and small drivers and that sort of thing, and they're like working. I like that direction you're on.

SPEAKER_03

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I want to say one thing about that. I put it slightly differently. I talk about it in terms of driver surface area, regardless of the topology of speaker. To my ears, there is something good about lots of driver surface area in terms of naturalness, believability, and um effortlessness.

SPEAKER_00

I'll add, I'll add one other thing. If you have a reasonably efficient speaker, and so and so the speaker's relaxed and the amplifiers relaxed, as opposed to a very hard-to-drive speaker, I think there's some magic there too, along with the driver. So so uh it's not just one or the other, but I think it's it's the amplifier being right for the speaker is is critical in that too.

SPEAKER_05

True. Just to add to that, uh an eight-inch woofer, it takes four of those to make up for a 15-inch woofer in surface area. Right. No replacement. It takes almost 215 to make up for an 18.

SPEAKER_02

See if you'll agree with this analogy, an electrostatic designer gave me. He said, Imagine a swimming pool and you've got a concrete block, right? And you're moving the water with it. It takes a lot of strength to hold that block and get it moving. But now take a really light surf, uh, like like board, like a um a foam board. You can really move it quickly, a big one, right? And get a lot of wave, and that large surface area seems to couple with the room nicer. Would you agree with that, Peter? Yes, and move it more easily, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah, it's more linear, too. More linear. Yeah, more linear.

SPEAKER_02

So there is something, and so I'm glad to see you're on that path.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01

With the company you won't name, Danny, our music segment, music segment. So, you know what? Uh, since Doug is on this show, you can't go without mentioning a great Canadian singer-songwriter, and the name is uh Coulter Wall.

SPEAKER_02

Geez, I don't even know that one. Somebody was pointing out my April Wine album here in the comments, but I don't know Coulter Wall.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, four LPs, yeah, he's great. Oh, fantastic. Uh uh from uh, you know, good question. I'll have to look that up. Uh, where the hell is he from? I want to probably Saskatoon or something.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. I've been to Saskatoon a lot. Don't make fun of Saskatoon.

SPEAKER_00

No, my my grandparents are from there.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, very um, very much old school country. Uh, you know, what what I call the the old Johnny Cash style country.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um beautiful arrangements. Country blues, country blues, fantastic. Uh his very holy shit! Like, seriously, man, talk about tuning a system uh would to a male vocalist. Oh my gosh, brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I think this is his second album. Uh he's probably got about half a dozen out, Mike. I think. Well, I've got four.

SPEAKER_00

I I a buddy of mine turned me on to him, and and uh I you know I I I love Cowboy Blues, so he's great. Uh completely agree. Jamie Johnson, he's kind of like Jamie Johnson a little bit, a little bit.

SPEAKER_01

Watch the next uh uh Expona show get clobbered with uh Coulter Wall.

SPEAKER_02

Walter Wall, okay, gotta look that up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Then we have uh Walt Dickerson, uh vibrophonist, played with Andrew Hill, Sunra, many others. Uh this is probably his most famous album. Is that a mono? What's that? Is that a mono? No, this is a stereo. No stereo, stereophonic. Um absolutely gorgeous, beautiful arrangements, uh, you know, very mellow jazz, easy to get into. If you're new to jazz, if you're exploring jazz, can't recommend this highly enough. Walt Thickerson, he's got many other great albums, but this is definitely one of his standout albums. Uh, absolutely gorgeous. This is just a uh a standard reissue. Originals are impossible to come by. ERC, the electric recording company, did a reissue of his mono record for 900 smackers uh back in the day. Um but uh yeah, this is uh I think$23 on eBay, absolutely fantastic. Or of course, you can stream it. Um keeping in with uh the sort of classic theme, Chet Baker. This is a great um Philip Catherine, Chet Baker and Philip Catherine um album on music on vinyl. Uh classic Chet Baker and fabulous, fabulous guitar sound. Um the album's called There'll Never Be Another You. Uh, I think he was talking about you, Doug. Um, yeah, great, great reissue. Very hard to find an original. Uh, this music and vinyl is absolutely fantastic, easy to get. Look at it on eBay or discogs again, classic Chet Baker. Um, and then one of the records that I actually I came across it, I don't know, maybe about 10-15 years ago. Friend of mine recommended it to me. So it's it's the great uh James George Hunter, otherwise known as Jimmy Rolls, uh, with Stan Getz. So this record, this particular one happens to be a um uh uh what do you call it? A uh DJ copy, a promo copy. Easy to find, 10-15 bucks, no more than that. Absolutely phenomenal uh jazz and J May Rolls his voice. There's a couple of tracks where he sings. Let me tell you something. You want to set up your hi-fi, uh, it's kind of like the Coulter Wall stuff. You want to set up your hi-fi, you listen to this guy sing, and man, if you if it doesn't click, something's wrong with your system. Move the speakers around, like Doug used to say. Uh, you know, change your uh change the speakers from the far side to the near side of the wall. When it clicks, you're gonna hear it and you're gonna be like, holy shit. So, anyway, super cheap record, uh easy to find, and just absolutely phenomenal sound. And of course, the great Stan Getz and Jimmy Rolls.

SPEAKER_02

And that's it for the and and I looked up while you're doing that. Coulter Wall is from uh Swiftgur in Saskatchewan, our least popular province, just north of uh North Dakota and Montana, there maybe an hour north. I'll be a hundred. I'm not surprised. I grew up in Saskatchewan for anybody for anybody uh watching in Moose Jaw and Regina.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_02

I'll look that I'll look up that Colcher Wall. That's a good recommendation.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I like any other any other music recommendations. I have a few. Go right ahead.

SPEAKER_01

Love it. So uh I uh yes, go Peter man! You're my you're my hero.

SPEAKER_05

I came across uh a YouTube video with a guy describing in great detail how a studio recording is done, and he was uh talking about this album, uh 10cc the original soundtrack. That's it. I got it. Fantastic recording. Was it the video?

SPEAKER_02

Is I'm not in love in there? Is it yeah? That's yeah, there's a great YouTube video. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Fantastic recording that one cry recommended, and then the follow-up to it is uh this one right here. Uh oh, yes, how dare you? Of course, uh also highly recommended. Uh, very so those would be my two recommendations. Recording on both of these are fantastic, and it's you know,$20 Amazon albums.

SPEAKER_01

Awesome. 10cc is good stuff. No doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02

Um it's a great fascinating thing on how I'm not in love was made because it's not how you think it might be made. Oh, not at all. You should really look up that video.

SPEAKER_05

I forgot the gentleman's name.

SPEAKER_00

It's kind of an accident, it was kind of an accident, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and actually, the the uh the the lady that comes in and and says, Big boys don't cry, big boys don't cry. That's a cleaning lady in the uh in the studio.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, yep, I know that's great stuff. No, I encourage people to look up that video. It was actually Lassa Danielson at Electric Company who put me onto that video because he's really into the trivia of how a lot of those classic records got made.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yep, cool. Any final thoughts, gentlemen?

SPEAKER_05

This was a great joke, a great venue. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_02

And I think it's good to have the um information for people type thing. Trust some reviewers, just not all.

SPEAKER_01

Very true. Don't trust me.

SPEAKER_02

Only trust me sometimes. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for joining the show, guys. Really nice. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you, Ron. It's a good format.

SPEAKER_03

Appreciate it. See you next week. Bye bye. Bye bye, bye bye, Ron. You're a