The Hi-Fi Five Episode 26: How to Select a Loudspeaker and Room Placement

The HiFi Five Episode 26:  How to Select a Loudspeaker and Room Placement

Shanon McKellar, audio and music reviewer for Analog Planet

Steven Norber, founder and designer of PranaFidelity dynamic driver loudspeakers, and Director of Audio Engineering of Von Schweikert Audio

Greg Roberts, founder and designer of Volti Audio horn loudspeakers

Florian Wiegand, founder and designer of Clarisys Audio ribbon loudspeakers, and proprietor of Audio Excess, a distributor and dealer in Switzerland

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome to the 26th episode of the High Five Five. Please like this video and subscribe to the channel. Big scheduling news for the High Five Five. As you know, we've been doing the show weekly. However, going forward, I'm going to be doing the show only twice per month on the second Wednesday of the month and the fourth Wednesday of the month. Why? I love doing the show, but the reality is the industry is simply not big enough for me to come up with four guests per week 52 times a year, let alone having to come up with 52 interesting topics. Just can't be done. So this is not like a political news show where the world gives you your topics every week. It just ain't that simple. I want things to get repetitive and boring. So going forward, I'm going to be doing the show the second and fourth Wednesday of every month. The second Wednesday of April is April 8th. However, I'm going to be at Exponent. So I'm not going to be doing a show April 8th. The next show is going to be the fourth Wednesday of April, April 22. Tonight's guest, The Return of Shannon. Oh Brandon McKeller, audio and music reviewer for Analog Planet. Analog Planet is the analog and vinyl sister outlet of Stereophile. Shannon has been reviewing analog components and albums and reporting on audio shows since 2018. Happy to have Stephen Norbert for the first time, the founder and head designer of Pranafidelity, a Denver-based high-end audio company known for designing and manufacturing loudspeakers and electronics. Steven also is the director of audio engineering of von Schweigert Audio. Greg Roberts is the founder of Volti Audio and the designer of high sensitivity loudspeakers produced in his Tennessee-based workshop. Florian Vigand is the founder and lead designer of Claris's Audio, known for developing modern planar loudspeakers inspired by classic apogee designs. Florian also is the proprietor of Audio Access, a higher audio distributor and dealer in Switzerland. I want to especially thank Florian because he is a super trooper. It's 3 a.m. for Florian in Switzerland. So I'm grateful that Florian is joining us tonight at this crazy time. Welcome, everybody. Question number one: How should an audiophile setting up his or her first system figure out what type of speaker he or she wants, what type of topology? A box speaker, a horn speaker, a planar speaker? How does somebody figure out, walking into a dealer, seeing all sorts of stuff, how does a beginner figure out what sonic presentation he or she wants? Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Well, in all fairness, if you've got a beginner, you might have to keep in mind they really might not know what they want. They might know what kind of list music that they listen to, but you know, they might just listen to everything and need speakers that are gonna match that. Um, you know, you have to kind of figure out what is it they listen to. Do they listen to classical or jazz, do they listen to hard rock and heavy metal? You know, they what's a priority to them is the delicate highs and and details or is it the big base? Um, you know, I think that you gotta keep in mind what their budget is and what room they're gonna be using. I think those are two big things, especially when you've got somebody who's just starting out. You know, do they want ease of setup? Do they want upgradability? Do they want, you know, versatility, like you might get in a box speaker? Do they want, do they have like a big space that you know they want more transparency, that they need some nice planners? Um, you know, are they willing to spend a few bucks? They've, you know, know they've got a somebody who's given the right idea on how to match components and they want to go with some horns. You know, do they want that resonance? I think that it's there's a lot of things to take into consideration.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Well, in the first part of your answer, are you suggesting that musical genre preference drives loudspeaker preference?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I think it I think it can. I think it really can. Um you know, there are some speakers that are more suited for different genres, absolutely, you know, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Just tell me briefly, what genre do you think matches each speaker topology best?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Well, you know, I've heard some beautiful ribbon speakers that absolutely sound fantastic with lighter, you know, and more classical or jazz or um like a lighter stuff, but we put some tool on there and I couldn't do it. Right? There's that's happened. Um, I've heard some horn speakers that sound absolutely phenomenal with some some pieces, and then I heard them and I was like, eh, I don't like what I'm hearing from, you know, it just didn't match. It didn't, it didn't it didn't make me happy. Do you know what I mean? Steven.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yes. Okay. Um I kind of go with the subjective approach, all right? Even though I have to use numbers and measurements and all of that and designing a product. When you're getting started, I tend to think that we don't always know, as Shannon mentioned, what somebody likes, you know, what are their preferences. And so that subjective approach means trying to move away from what the marketed perspectives are about the characteristics of a particular type of loudspeaker, as though it's bound based upon that design to reproduce a specific character. And you know, while electrostatics, for example, which aren't nobody here is part of that, you know, do tend to have a much narrower listening window. I've heard some electrostatics with dynamic base drivers that really impressed me, really impressed me. Um to that degree, um it's it I think we're we're as consumers, we're hungry for information, and often that information is is loaded. And so to the degree that a person can honor their own senses and learn about simply what they're hearing, listen to how their body responds, how they feel, you know, to whatever they're listening to. If I'm listening to Wagner's, you know, Rider of Valkyries, you know, chances are I'm gonna have certain tension in my body, okay. Um, if I'm listening to Ella and Louis do cheek to cheek, you know, I'm gonna be smiling. All right. So so this whole nervous system response that just communicates to us is something I like to uh think of as a guide and just there. I don't have a choice but to listen to it, hopefully. Florine, what are your thoughts?

unknown 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Well, for me, the answer is actually a lot a lot more simple. Um if you listen to a product and you're happy to listen to it and your foot starts tapping, that's your product.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

I I always articulate in terms of emotional engagement, so that makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

It's it's it's quite as simple as that. And I don't subscribe to the notion that uh certain types of topologies have certain um preferences. Usually you can find these in in designs which are not fulfilling. Um, so lots of compromise designs. Um but for me, look, 25 years ago, I heard a pair of apogee's and um nothing ever moved me the same. So 25 years later, we started to make these um big things again, and um that's all you need. Now um I would add uh a couple of things to this really quickly. What you really shouldn't do is prepare yourself. So don't listen to and don't read any of the forums. Don't read any of the high-fife forums, don't read sorry wrong, WBF, don't read Audio Shark, don't um go to any of your magazines. Do not fill your head with any of this information. Simply put your butt in the car or the plane, fly or drive what interests you, give it a listen. If you like it and you have the money, buy it. If you like it, don't have the money, save your money, buy it when you have the money. Um, and that's really all that matters. If it's fun for you and you enjoy it, that's all that matters. Everything else is not relevant.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Greg.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

I agree with Florian about uh I don't think that uh the topology of a speaker should be uh should determine what you can listen to on the speaker. A speaker ought to be able to play any music uh equally well. I listen to uh opera. You're likely to come in here uh anytime and hear me uh listening to see me listen to the opera, or uh I love tools, so um my speakers have to do it all. Um, so how does a person who's just getting into the hobby um figure out what they want for speakers? First off, how exciting is that that there are people just getting into the hobby and have that opportunity? Um that's really exciting to me. Uh I think you have to go listen to speakers. Um what what better way is there than to go to an audio show and uh and listen to speakers? My goodness. Uh it's uh uh you can you can hear horns, you can hear planar speakers, you can hear box speakers, uh, open baffle, one one right after another at uh at Expona. That's what I would do uh if I was just getting into this uh into this hobby and um you know was trying to figure out what I want for a speaker. Um the other thing that I would say to people just getting into the hobby too is first off, really just understand that this is about having fun listening to music. So don't put stress on yourself, don't get stressed out and put pressure on yourself to think that you're gonna get that perfect speaker the first time you go buy a speaker. It's not gonna happen. Uh you've got to experience different things. And uh uh don't forget the use market, it's a great place. Uh uh, even if you buy something for a couple hundred bucks on uh Facebook Marketplace, um do it. Uh get it set up in your house. Start listening to music, start enjoying what is really fun about this hobby, which is uh listening to music. And you know, in time you'll figure it out. Um it's a journey. This hobby is a journey.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

Question number two How should a beginner think about loudspeaker size relative to room size and ceiling height? Florian, you manufacture a wide range of different sizes of loudspeakers. How do you help a prospective client match his or her room dimensions to your sizes of speakers?

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Well, the first thing you have to do is um you have to actually stick to your character and don't oversell them. In most cases, our smaller models are more than efficient enough to drive even quite, let's say, medium or large-sized rooms. Um, the big one, which you can see a part of right here, will drive 3,000 square feet without an issue. And yes, you can put hard rock and tool and techno on there as well. Um, but of course, you don't need this in a small smaller space. So generally, what we have um in metric sizes, I'm sorry, I don't know any of the other uh uh units of measurement. Basically, let's say you have a room about 25 square meters, um, you go to the piccolo, you have a room 35, 40 square meters, you get a minuet. You have 60, 65 square meters, something you buy a Studio Plus, and then up you go. So it's um it's not really a question on our speakers, for example, that you get different drivers or different parts, different quality, you get the same high quality in the same parts on all the different speakers, all exactly the same. The only thing that differentiates them is the physical surface area and the height of the speaker. So um, all you're really recommending is um what panel surface area is the best match to drive your room. And then, of course, there is the question about what kind of listener are you? Um, so for example, would you like to have the same experience when you're standing up and walking around? Well, if that's the case, you probably should buy a speaker that's taller than you, um, since you're a complete line array. Um, but usually, on at least on our on our size, um room volume and your demand for, let's say, for SPL is the driving factor in deciding what model from our range you would choose from. Um or different topologies, I would leave that to the other guests. Um, obviously, I also buy other topologies. I mean, I own horn speakers, I own coex speakers, I own radial stratas from MBL, I own different panel speakers, um, I buy competitors' products as well. Um, but I think I'm probably the wrong person to uh adjust or give recommendations based on the room size on the different topologies.

SPEAKER_04 13:05

Shandon, I'm sure people come to you and ask for advice all the time about selecting speakers. How do you help them match speaker size to room? Size matters.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Sorry, boys. Um, yeah, choosing the room matters. Um, you don't want to put a cube because you know you're gonna get that, those bad frequencies around, it's not gonna sound good. You want to think about the layout of your room. What are the windows? Is there windows in it? Are you is it a room in your basement that's got low ceilings? You know, is your partner gonna be okay with you throwing a rug down on the hardwood floor, right? All of these things matter. And you know, you want to think about a rectangle, you know, that's gonna be the right proportions for your speakers. You're not gonna put little tiny box speakers into a great little tiny speakers into a great big room. You want to make sure that it's all proportionate, right? And then and you know, you can see you'll see on when you look at speakers at they'll tell you how how big of a room. There's recommendations. I'm sure that you always have recommendations on what size of room will go with certain speakers, right? So size matters. Greg.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So I I tell my customers don't overthink this issue about size of room and what size speaker you should have. Um, I found and I build uh speakers of different sizes, and I find really they all work just as well in a small room. Um the other thing I notice is that with a big speaker in a small room, um people who have small rooms actually have a little bit of an advantage. Uh, if if you're like me and you want that system to be energizing the room, uh then a big speaker will do that much easier than a small speaker. Yes, you have to control the volume level, but uh a big speaker can energize a room with very little power input and have that real ease of presentation in the room. So I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that uh you have to uh if you have a small room, you have to stick to a smaller speaker. Um I think uh I think I would prefer a system that just doesn't have to be pushed as hard. Just just let it be uh uh open and dynamic and uh have an ease and an effortlessness to it. Uh that would be my preference. And that usually means a little bit bigger speaker. Stephen.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Well, you know, it's interesting when it comes to rooms and speakers because we're talking about rooms that we'll often not know about what the construction is of the room, the materials themselves, you know, and the asymmetry within the construction materials from one side to the other, brick, you know, versus drywall versus you know, whatever the bracing is behind that drywall. And uh some rooms can load up more easily than others. And uh uh as Shannon was noting, when it comes to the square rooms, the nodes and the anti-nodes as modes with in standing wave functions will um uh uh make some rooms more susceptible to larger speakers than than than others. I've built speakers in this small room that's custom built to you know my specs, and and um and I've taken them to hotels, completely overloaded the whole hotel room, you know, and and um so there's a there's a lot of variables that that you know we'll have to account for with that. Um you know, as a guy who who makes speakers, I need to have a room that can support whatever speaker I'm gonna build. But that doesn't always guarantee that the customer's gonna have a comparable room. As such, you know, I would tend to go for scale, as has been mentioned in terms of uh, you know, the the emissive area uh and the and the size of that wave launch um can make a difference with regard to the loading up of that room. Um and um uh you know, and investing a bit of money, even if you're a beginner, into a little bit of treatment as needed.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Well, I would actually um also support um Steven's um point there. Um before blowing some money on some cables, um blow some money on room acoustics. Yeah, just to add it's yeah, yeah. I mean, um a basic premise. I mean, as you can see here, our our room here in Switzerland um is acoustically treated, it's it's measured, ceiling, sidewalls, passive, active units. And um for for for somebody who's a beginner, they can gain a lot more performance out of their purchase, no matter what it is, if they invest some time in room acoustics. I mean, the first company I started out with was um GIK. Uh, I don't get any you know any money from them. Yeah, yeah. GIK was one of the first ones I bought from. Um, those guys um really helped me out, right? And then you can deep dive and learn more into it. So I think companies like that that make affordable products um should get a shout out. So there you go. Um, and uh the other thing is also it depends what kind of customer you have. Um, we have, for example, a few of them, but we do have them. Um, customers that say, Hey, I have a friend with a hi-fi system, I also want to get a hi-fi system, and their initial investment is a quarter of a million dollars. So you have a customer who's gonna invest a quarter of a million into a hi-fi system. Yeah, he's gonna get his rumor acoustics and everything settled in that purchase price as well. But that's not the case for, for example, somebody who starts out like I did, or maybe you guys did, um, whatever, 25-30 years ago, who just buys um one of their first couple of speakers, right? And then you learn the hard way and build your own absorbers and diffusers in the basement or your mom's garage. So it depends on what kind of what kind of customer you you are, what kind of starting point you have. And um, but I would definitely subscribe and and and support um Steven's point here about the room acoustics being of vital importance.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Yeah, I want to go off script for just a second. Would you tell I see uh behind you the uh the ubiquitous vertical thin vertical slats, but then it looks like you have QRD diffusers in sections on top of the background diffuser wall. So just tell us briefly what the thinking is behind having uh sectional diffusers on top of a broad wall diffuser. Well, um the broad wall diffuser is um not really diffusing very much.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Um we have a well depth of about two centimeters. I mean, mathematically or physically, this does almost nothing, it's maybe above whatever eight kilohertz. But the um we basically have um 1D and 2D diffusers which scatter um basically either in one plane or in two planes, and we also you cannot see this, but this room is actually about 40 45 feet long um this direction, um, outside of your view, and we have acoustics all around, and we play with a mixture of um binary diffusers, 1D diffusers, 2D diffusers, and broadband absorbers. And for example, what we do is um we have diffusion primarily on the vertical height to give a bit more air to the room, a bit more space, and we do absorb a bit of the sidewall reflections. But understand this room is quite large, and um so we have no overdamping. We are going for, let's say, a semi-life acoustic environment because I just personally don't like studio acoustics.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

Thank you. Question number three What is the most common mistake beginners make when selecting their first serious loudspeaker? Greg, you first.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Okay, so um one thing that I see uh fairly often uh well, people will contact me and say, uh, will such and such an amplifier work with your speakers? You know, I build high sensitivity speakers that require just a few watts of power to really get going. And they'll say, Well, I have an 800 watt per channel amplifier. You know, will that work? Um yes, it will work, um, but it's not going to be the last amplifier you ever uh buy. Uh it's not a great match. So I would say um to people, buy your speakers first. You know, the speakers really, really determine much more the character of the system than any other component. Um I do think some people, if they're just getting into this hobby and they haven't decided on exactly what speaker they want to go with, and they get on a form and somebody says, Hey, you gotta check out this amplifier, it's a great sounding amplifier, and they might actually buy it, and it's two watts per channel. Uh, you know, they've really kind of limited. Their choices for speakers when they do that. So that would be a common, probably a fairly common mistake is to buy other components before you really settle in on what speakers you want to listen to long term. Stephen.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Well, I like the way that Greg finished with the term long term. And to that degree, as exciting as it is to uh to get involved in this hobby, sometimes I think excitement can um uh blind us to more intelligent modes of of processing what we're liking or not liking. And to that degree, I say spend time alone with whatever it is that you're that you're considering. Uh listen to it alone without any what I have here in my notes, sans any sales encouragement, without any sales encouragement. Um you know, because we're vulnerable, you know, we are. I mean, you know, we're we you know, we we want to feel encouraged and and and and you know camaraderie and all of that, but uh again, as Greg was noting, you're gonna have this long term, you're gonna listen to it alone, and you're gonna love it, damn it. So so it's really that function of time and and then bringing music that you know and you love, and yes, good recordings do help. Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Oh, I totally concur. That was actually um my first thought was what other cons what other components are you putting with this? And have you thought about, you know, like first of all, let's talk about your budget, right? You want to you've got a X amount of budget for your speakers. Let's a beginner, let's put that into perspective. You've got X amount of budget that you've got for your speakers and you for your system. You blow three-quarters of it on your speakers because you know, you got they looked great, they sounded great, that's what you you thought you wanted, and then you realize they didn't have you didn't take all the other stuff into perspective, the the components that go in it. Break down to your listening chair, your cables, your you know, room treatments, all of that stuff. And I think the biggest mistake is listening to too many opinions and not enough speakers. Make an informed decision. You're absolutely right. You're gonna spend some time with these, and you need to make an informed decision, but not by listening, you know. I think there's you if you want to find something to like or love about anything in the world, you can go on any place and you can see the good and bad of of both. I think you actually need to experience it for yourself, you know, because you are right. This is a long term, this is an investment. This is gonna be in your home, this is something that you want that you're gonna enjoy. You know, I think listen to more of them, Florian.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Well, I don't support the idea that it's gonna be a long term because if you look at the way audio files are nothing is long term. Um that just doesn't happen. But um let's let's assume you found your loudspeaker and and for audio files, let's say you keep it for six months. Oh my!

SPEAKER_05 25:33

So broken in.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I would I would argue the most important thing which new beginners oversee is room acoustics. A hundred percent. Um, all of them oversee it. You have people who have been in the hobby for 30, 40 years, spent a million dollars on a system, have not spent a single cent on room acoustics. They will buy footers and cable lifters before they buy room acoustics. It is completely insane. So I would test number one. Um number two, and I think this is where I differ a little bit. Whatever you lose at the source, you will never get back. Um, so I would definitely invest into a good source second. So for me, it's number one rumor acoustics to its source because again, beginning of the chain, whatever you lose, you will never get it back no matter what you buy. Question number four. Before you jump to for run, I'm sorry. But also what Shannon said, I've I really like um, and I'll reiterate it to my point number one. Trust yourself, your own taste, your own gut. Don't read it, don't go to your friend who knows a friend who knows what's right. It doesn't matter. You have no idea what it sounded like originally, you have absolutely no clue what is right, and secondly, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if you enjoy your music on that particular product that you bought and everything else is irrelevant.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

I personally completely agree. My view is you have to listen to lots and lots of different things. Don't listen to anybody, don't go in with expectation bias, which is what you were saying earlier, Florian, about don't be swayed by what the magazines say, don't be swayed by what somebody says in a forum. Go in with as little pre-existing bias as possible. Play your favorite music and see how it makes you feel. Question number four What are a couple of simple instructions? The first one or two simple things somebody should do when he or she unboxes the speakers and puts them in the room.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Steven. Ah, okay. Well, I, you know, I that's that's a really important question, I think. And it depends on the speaker, its dispersion patterns, and I note here, you know, wave launch and interference patterns, and of course, the room. Um I say, given most listening rooms are not an equick chambers, and you really wouldn't want to listen in an echoic chamber, and most have some asymmetry within the design with respect to doorways, windows, adjacent rooms. Don't be shy about asymmetrical toe in or toe out, however, you might do that. And um, and again, listen to that degree. You know, yes, we're concerned about first reflections, yes, we're concerned about energy storage within the room. Um, and also do we put it on the long wall to the short wall? And that depends on the room. So, to that degree, I say experiment. I've I've I've done shows where I think I'm going to be on this one particular wall, and it's just like it was awful, had to completely rearrange it was on the long wall and it worked great, or vice versa. And, you know, there's there's characteristics to rooms that can't always be immediately quantified, yet we can qualify them sometimes just by walking around and clapping your hand in various corners and you know, shouting to yourself and see where you what your voice is doing in those various areas of the rooms. So that you know those those are those are things where I would start.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Sorry, um, I will add to that. I think um yes, you can start off with asymmetrical placement, but don't expect that it's going to end up in a symmetrical placement. So I I fully agree with that. Um the at least during during the setup with most speakers we have here. Um I start with the base. Um, that's the most um difficult thing to get right. It's the largest wave um length. It's also the one of the highest amount of energy and the most difficult to control, especially below 100 hertz, where except active devices almost nothing works, unless you're willing to um yeah, tell your wife you're gonna put a 20-foot foam absorber in your living room, but I don't think that's gonna help. Um, so I would do the bass first. Um, a really good baseline and move your speakers and your listening position to find a space where you have, let's say, the best balance um that you appreciate, and then go from there. That's usually the hardest to get right. So, yes, asymmetrical placement if required, and then I would I would start with the bass, um and then focus basically on the sound stage, with which usually you can do is you start by putting them fairly close together, move them further apart, and at some point where the central stage collapses, you have gone too far. So there are some beginner tips, and um, although I'm not a really a I'm not a big fan of um a box speaker company from Utah, they do have a public setup guide, which does actually help. Um also other traditional um box speaker um owners, and um we also publish a placement guide for our speakers, which by the way also generally works for other um panel speakers which are similar in construction. Greg.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Uh well uh Stephen and Florian really kind of hit on most of it there. I'm gonna add just one small thing. Um, and uh I I think it's important to make sure that uh the speakers have uh felts underneath them or something easy to slide them around with uh before you get into doing isoacoustics or some sort of spiking of the speakers. Um, in other words, figure out the placement of these speakers before you go uh putting feet under them. Make them easy to slide around. You're more likely to try different things uh if it's simple just to slide them around into place. And you'd be surprised, uh just small uh movements of the speakers in and out from the back wall, slight toe-win uh differences can really make a difference in the uh in the overall presentation of the sound. Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Well, my if you especially if you're talking about a beginner who isn't necessarily this might be the first time that they are setting up their own space. My best advice is be prepared to not get it right the first time. That this, you know, be patient with the placement. This is a this is something that's gonna take time, it's gonna take tweaking. Um, you know, you're gonna have to move around different areas of your space. You're gonna have to find out where you want to put your listening chair. It's gonna take some time. It's gonna be you're not gonna get it right. Um, and don't put baby in a corner. Make sure that you've got breathing space for this for your speakers. Make sure that you've got room to move that air. Um, unless they're clipshorns. Uh yeah, of course. The corner rooms in our speakers, you know, you don't want to put baby in the corner. You want to make sure that you've got this is gonna take time to set this up. And sit in your chair. Do you like what you see? Right? When you sit back, you are gonna be sitting enjoying the music that you love in this room. This is gonna be your space. You sit back, put your feet up. Do you like what you see? You know, does it make you happy? This is these are things that like I I think we get too caught up in all of, you know, I've I've seen the the laser show, then you know, setting everything up. But really, let's take it down to basics. Be patient with it. You know you're gonna enjoy this. Make sure it's something that you enjoy, right? You're right. You may have to rearrange your room because that you sit down in your chair and you're like, uh-uh, that's not right. Be prepared to do those kind of things, and it's okay. That's that's kind of what it's a you know, what it's meant to be.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Question five. This is an opportunity for each of the designers to sort of talk their book. But I'm genuinely curious, what is it about your respective speaker topology that for you personally achieves for your ears the greatest realism and the greatest suspension of disbelief? Florian.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Well, our motto is concert in your living room, and what uh what we don't make is we don't make price performance products. I don't care about the price, I just care about the performance. So for me, it's um it's uh scale, uh speed, lack of uh any type of uh localization. That what gives me the suspense of of disbelief. And um, I think in order to do that you need uh scale, uh speed, transparency, dynamics, uh obviously, that goes without saying. But um honestly it's it's how shall I put this? It's basically 2 30, I think, when I started this stream, and I've been listening to music all day. So I've already got about maybe 12 or 14 hours in, and I could probably continue for another 10 hours. And for me, if I can do that, then the system is right. Greg.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Effortless power delivery. Uh, like a great sports car, you know, and I have quite a few little sports cars that I have a lot of fun with. When you've got that reserve of power, uh, it's an easy uh pull from the engine, great handling. Uh a sports car is a car that can just elevate the driving experience with uh with its power. And I'm looking for the same kind of thing from my speakers. Um a horn speaker only requires a few watts of power to get going. Uh actually uh quite good output. And um it's that effortlessness that I love. You know, when you're when you're not having to push a speaker with a lot of power, there's an ease to the sound. And to me, that ties back to what I hear when I sit and listen to live instruments. If I hear somebody playing a guitar, uh there's there's a lot that happens with that single pluck of the string as the as the uh pick comes off the string, and that dynamic uh of that pick on the string, and then the tone, the woody tone of the guitar itself. It for me it comes through best when it's done through a system that is just barely working, a system that is just effortlessly powerful. And uh so I'm always drawn to that kind of a speaker. I have been since I was uh uh a young kid, and um that's what I am shooting for in my own speakers to get to that point where this ease of presentation just draws you into the music and then gives it to you in front of you uh in the same way that a live event would. Uh and uh and to me that's just so much fun. That is exactly what listening to music ought to be like.

SPEAKER_04 36:49

Shannon, you can have any speaker you want, and you choose to have box speakers.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Why is that it's my space, it's uh it's what space I have available. Um, you know, for me for like sonic presentation of box speakers and to make it that suspension disbelief. I for me, it's about the instruments coming from believable spots, right? I want to hear the guitar over here, I want to hear the bass guitar over here, I want to hear the drums at the back, I want to hear the lead singer up front center. I want the the sound to be coming from believable areas, as if you know, you close your eyes and you can picture the band in front of you, you know, and really the emotional connection. Let's be realistic. That emotional um connection, I want to make sure that that's coming through. That's part of that suspension of delete of belief for me, is that we have that connection to the music that we're actually listening to. You know, does it get me teary-eyed? Does it make me want to cherry dance? Does it bring me back to a place in time where I associate that song too? That's for me, that's about suspension of disbelief. It's not necessarily about it's about that commote, that connection. And you know, I really love hearing the clarity and the separation, the details, like the Easter eggs that are in songs, right? Um, you know, do I hear the that phone ringing in the back of the ocean when I listen to Houses of the Holy, right? I want to hear that. Uh, do I hear the water running in the back of 2112? Um, you know, do I hear John Bottom's pedal squeak? I really want to hear those Easter eggs because then I actually like I'm associating that there's an actual real live band, right? You can close your eyes and you can picture yourself you're, you know, you're in that space. Um, you know, you feel like you're in the audience. And if we're talking to talk about suspension of disbelief, I don't I'm not particular over one speaker or another. It's not about me having a particular type of favor over one speaker or another, it's about capturing that moment. You know what I mean? Like when you hear um sting laugh at the beginning of Roxanne, Outlandos Demor, because they they played a wrong note, right? I've you listened to that song so many times, it makes you connect with the band, with the music. And that's if you want to talk about suspension of disbelief, that's what it is about for me. It's about can I actually believe that there's a band in front of me? That this is, you know, I'm part of that moment, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Stephen. Hey, um that's a tough one, you know, it is because um, you know, I've done these like, is it live or memorix things where I've had you know Todd Garfinkel come to our studio and uh I'd set up a system and have a musician playing there and Todd's recording him, and then we play it back immediately. And I'm like, yeah, live wins and all the time. But uh I guess my bias, my whole kind of Rasson Detre, I guess, when it comes to this stuff, is timbre and pitch, you know, um, and scale. I I other guys, other folks here, Shannon, I think everybody here has mentioned something about scale one way or another, and that scale is going to be relative to how it's recorded. So it's nice to know, you know, how it's recorded, and uh, and then the room, the context within which it's getting played back. So tambourine pitch.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

Question six Is there any reason to use stand mount speakers rather than floor standing speakers, Shannon?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

You know, I think you could argue for both sides. Do you want your speakers to kind of fade into the background? A much more precise sound? Do you want something that might be a little easier on the budget? Are you willing to look at getting, you know, you might need a subwoofer for the bass? Do you want something that's a bit more authoritative? Are your neighbors going to appreciate the volume? Right? I think there's I I think you can make arguments either either way. Okay. Greg?

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Uh is there any sonic reason to use stand-out speakers rather than floor-standing speakers? Um, not that I can come up with Florian?

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Well, sure, if the driver is further away from the floor, you have less first reflection points. Um there is an advantage, absolutely, um technically and sonically. Now, the question, of course, is um what do you what do you buy with that? So, for example, let's say you buy a stand mount speaker, um, and then you have more space further away from the from the reflection of the services. That's great, but maybe you have a small cabinet volume because you lose the volume below for the for the stand mount speaker. In that case, you might have a limit on a low frequency extension. So, what you do, you probably buy a subwoofer, and then you get um time delay errors, um, which of course um a lot of designs have more than than others, but you get time delay errors. Um, then you get integration errors, um, speed errors, membranes of subwoofer are usually heavy, um, which means they have more overhang when being driven and they cannot stop as fast. So, yeah, there are lots of limitations. Um, and I would go back and say, um, what are you looking for? Um, usually, if you buy a stand mode monitor, it's um primarily a visual concern, maybe a Wi-Fi acceptance factor, or in today's times a man's acceptance factor, who knows? Um or it could be a budget error. Um, it's either of these things. But yes, you are getting a technical advantage by using a standboard monitor over a floor standard. But if you cannot live with the compromise and have to add subwoofers, then you're probably asking for more trouble than you're than it's actually worth. So that would be at least my my point of view on this subject.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

Stephen. Well, I think we've made the assumption that a floor standard means full range and that a stand mount means that it's not full range, or at least approximating pretty close to that full range. And um I've been kind of surprised what can happen with with some of these drivers these days. You know, I'm fortunate because SB acoustics make some of my uh little six-inch drivers over. Oh, you can't see them so well, and they they do surprisingly well down into the low 30s. Um, and they're very light, you know, 11 grams of moving mass, super low inductance on the voice coils, um, and you know, they they do pretty well. Uh what Florian was saying about the aesthetic element, I think is very true as well, you know, and that people who do buy, you know, some of the stand mounts are looking at it for an aesthetic reason. Yet they're getting, you know, the the precursor to this stand mount was called the 5090. And that uh um I'm I'm kind of floating. My own boot when I say this, but it it it was uh it was named that because you got uh 90% of the goods of so-called full-range state of the art um that 50% of the people could afford. So there is a cost matter when it comes to stand mounts. You know, there's less materials in that, and it does cost less.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

Florian took us to question seven. Are subwoofers or separate woofer towers essential for state-of-the-art systems? Or does the subwoofer, as Florian was talking about, separating the mini monitor from the subwoofer, does breaking up the uh most of the full range and then a separate subwoofer or woofer tower more often than not compromise coherence?

SPEAKER_02 44:49

So I'm a very big coherence guy. Um all of our crossovers are 60B first order. If we have a three-way speaker, there are exactly three parts in the crossover, uh, no more. Um so I'm very big on coherence. And obviously, we use the same driver material um from infrasonic um ribbon subwoofers um until the the treble regions. We have all this exact same material. So I'm a big coherence guy. Um so let's say state of the art. Everybody defines state of the art um differently. So let me at least tell you, let's say maybe three three systems which I guess um I considered state of the art through my audio journey. Um, so the first one that really um blew me away was an Infinity IRS 5. Um, I'll name the Genesis 1.1, the successor. Um, for me, state of the art would also be if you like electrostatics, I think a Sound Lab 945 ProStat is super cool. Which one? Uh Soundlab ProStat, 945. I think that's a super cool speaker. Um, the Apogee Grand, um, seven pairs in the world. I own two pairs, now I only want one because my wife made me sell one. Um, so those are my reference class speakers. And on those types of systems, I think um a separate infrasonic um base unit that does whatever 30 hertz and below is needed. Now, if you have a multi-array system like ours, where we basically have six elements, the separation frequencies are actually not as typical as most reference systems. So on an Infinity RS5, the base towers played well above 100 Hz. In our case, right here, the main panel, the big one, um, actually is not limited to the bottom. So it starts at approximately 14 hertz and then goes up. The subwoofer tower in the back starts at about 11 hertz and plays to about 45, and then it gets cut off. So I think um if you do the integration, you should still, at least in our design, have the uh let's call it a mid-based panel still play full range. I don't like to limit those because you can hear those crossover frequencies. And if you have to separate your towers by a fair margin, you need some form of time alignment. So I would say if you have a ref a true reference system, such as a multi-tower system and you don't have active time management for the delay settings, then you're doing it at a disservice and you shouldn't use them. But if you do use them, yes, I think they make sense, especially for very large rooms. You have to set them up properly and you also have to work with time management because otherwise it simply won't work correctly. So kind of sorry for the long-wind explanation, but those are my my my reference systems and uh my my point on it. But again, a reference system might be different for somebody else. Um, I just happen to love gigantic systems.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Stephen. I um I'm with Florian when it comes to the uh the the time domain problem with heavier cones on subwoofers and what that integration problem is between a heavier moving mass versus a much lighter moving mass. And and you know, there's a lot of other variables with that. You can fudge that with DSP, but it's fudging, you know, so there's always there's no free lunch with any of this stuff. And um I'm not you know, I'm not thinking that you have to have all these essential, excuse me, all these uh separate towers for a uh state-of-the-art experience at all. Um you know, I I I many, many years ago I was uh when I was just doing amplifiers with with edge electronics, we were working with a gentleman named John Dunlavy. And um and John was very, you know, into the into the strict first order stuff, and um, and we were helping him with an active loudspeaker, and it was big. It was, you know, has as you know, he was using only sealed boxes, and he was he was uh designing according to an antenna array with the woofers top and bottom and mids and and tweeter. And uh yeah, that worked quite well. It was it was a very immersive, very coherent sound. Um uh it might not have been everybody's cup of tea in terms of some of the sonic character or the materials that were used in in the in the cones that you could hear those materials, but it was you know the guy knew his stuff.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

It's like the Dunleavy SE5. That stuff is legendary, and yeah, I just I just miss those times. I just I hate I just hate these compromised designs. I I really do. I think if you're pushing for the state of the art, physicality, weight, practicality, price, just should it it should not be an issue. Yeah, it just it just shouldn't be. And um luckily there's still some stuff on. Unfortunately, it is yeah, yeah, at least in my life. Yeah, no, no, I I can't have that. Good for you. I can't have that. Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

I absolutely think that I agree that they can compromise the sound if they aren't done right, you know, you a hundred percent. But you know what? I was just thinking about like a home audio theater setup, right? Because that's there's some pretty state-of-the-art home audio theater too setups. And I gotta tell you, you've got one of those big basses under the couch and it's rumbling when the you know things are going on. That is pretty fun. Like, that's fun. So there can be a lot, there can be lots of good places for subwoofers too, right? Is it necessarily we're thinking, I'm thinking, we're thinking about audio, you know, and just you know, strictly, you know, your turntail, your system. I'm thinking there's other applications where subwoofers are great.

SPEAKER_04 50:50

Greg.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Uh Shannon, I'm with you. I think it is fun. That uh that physicality uh is addictive. Um, I you know, I go around the shows and uh and there are it seems like more and more now at the shows I'm hearing subwoofers being used uh in the rooms. And I rarely ever hear them properly integrated, or at least what I think is properly integrated. In fact, some of them are uh downright uh offensive. Um bordering on uh car audio guys, um uh you know, with the trunk lids flying off the uh the back of the car. Um I have struggled with it because you know, with horns, a lot of horn sneakers, especially bass horns, I should say, really bass horns, do not extend very deep uh unless they are very, very large. And uh this has always been uh one of the uh uh uh things about horns that are uh limiting, uh especially if you're trying to put uh a set of horn bass horns in a normal-sized living room, uh you're just not gonna get a deep base out of it. And yet at the same time, if you try to integrate a subwoofer with a bass horn, it's um near impossible to do. Um and it is only just recently, and I mean six to eight months, I would say, uh, that I have discovered uh SVS subwoofers, and I'm not suggesting that SVS is necessarily better than REL or any other subwoofer manufacturer for that matter, although I think they're pretty good. What's got me excited is this app that they have. Um, you know, here I am with my uh my phone sitting in the listening position, real time, music going on, and I'm able to change the parameters of those subwoofers. I use two of them uh in my room, and it's an extraordinary tool. It really is. For the first time ever, I have been able to adjust the perimeters in that app and actually not be able to tell that I have subwoofers playing in the room. Now, of course, I know there's subwoofers because I know the speakers don't go that low, um, but they really do integrate well now. Um, I've started using subwoofers at the shows uh for the first time uh at Exponent coming up next week, uh, will be the second show uh that I'm bringing subwoofers in. Uh I have enough confidence in the ability to integrate those into a system that when you walk in the room, I don't think you're gonna really know that I've got subwoofers on. Uh, if you're familiar with horn speakers or uh high sensitivity hybrid horn speakers, like I'll be bringing to the show, you'll know uh that wait a minute, though those don't go down that low. Um But uh to me, really exciting what's going on here on the on the electronic side, on the uh on the app side of things with these subwoofers. And uh it's uh something that I'm anxious to see uh you know what they continue to do uh on that end.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

Question eight. Some loudspeaker designers prioritize sensitivity, others prioritize flat frequency response or extended frequency response or avoiding a sharp impedance dip. What technical specifications do you aim for that you try to solve for in your loudspeaker design? Florian to start.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up the the point from Steven about the moving mass of his of a six-inch woofer. Um, so six-inch woofer, if you have, let's say, um maybe 10 grams of moving mass on a six-inch, for a conventional driver, that's super low. That's an excellent, excellent driver. That's no question about that. Well, but from the 10 grams on a on a ribbon, I go to 0.1. So I show up 0.1. Sorry. Um, so the the moving mass, then of course, um, the moving mass is very critical to us. And we're reducing that, by the way, even further in the in the next generation by a factor of two. Um, then you have, of course, the point about efficiency. And and as I say, our type of speaker um back in the 80s and 90s was notoriously inefficient and super low impedance tip. So an Apogee acoustic scintillo speaker had about 83 dB per watt efficiency and a linear impedance of one ohm. Um, so of course, um quite quite difficult. Let's call it that. Um, our designs, we use neodynium N52 magnet arrays, one of the reasons why this thing is 1.5 metric tons. Um, but we have got an efficiency of what 96-97 dB per channel. So I've got uh basically no moving mass, and I've got a gigantic engine um that goes with it. So the question, of course, um that's what I prioritize. So we prioritize basically extremely low mass, um, extremely high power of motor. Um of course, we don't want any um SASI or box resonances. Um, obviously, I mean we're fully dipole, we don't we don't have a box. Um, so we we we go that way. I know other manufacturers are building um hybrids, um, of course, you know, for the low um low subwoofer. Um at base, um we want to build speakers which are truly full range, um, and we don't need any kind of box to make that happen. So I would say uh moving mass, um, driving force. In terms of linearity, um, no, we do not strive for uh for perfect linearity. Um, I think purely linear designed loudspeakers suck. Um, if you want a perfect speaker, um there's a German company called I think Neumann or Neukom, they make an Active Studio monitor, which is DSP controlled, which is essentially, according to all the measurement statistics, a perfect speaker. It is completely linear. You can have an off-access response in the horizontal space and the vertical space. The thing is like 0.5 dB across the board. The problem is if you listen to music on this thing, trust me, it is not enjoyable. So the question is do you want a tool, which the Neucom to you monitor is? It's a it's it's a tool designed for somebody's work, or do you want to listen to music? And we personally we go for the music listener, and therefore we have an increased bass um response, and then we do slope them down throughout the mid-range and the travel. So, yes, we do not make linear speakers, and um we're not changing that either.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

Shannon, are there particular technical specifications you try to uh aim for when you select a speaker for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 57:18

You know what? I think like I like tubes and I like vinyl. So sometimes if like high efficiency speakers aren't bad for my books, um, I also want them to be really versatile so that they can play anything, but they're got that nice neutral balance so that you're not it's enjoyable, right? They're fun. You know, you want you know, you talk the the flat, but it's you're not absolutely right, you're not in an antiochaic chamber, right? You've gotta have there's that roundness on the top, but you've got to have the clarity behind. So, you know, I don't necessarily look at like you know, I don't build speakers, I listen to them. I'm not necessarily reading the tech manual about them, although don't get me wrong, I love the text and specs. I want to know if I'm getting those feels when I'm in my chair and if the music that I'm listening to is giving me what I want. And at the end of the day, that's why there are improvements in technology when it goes into speakers. That's why they work with this the cabinet materials, that's why you are working so hard, getting the drivers just right, and doing the tweets in the shop. Because when you know that when someone is gonna sit down in front of your speaker, you know that they're gonna get what they want out of them. And I think that's I'm not looking for the text, I'm not looking for the name in the box, I'm not looking any for that. I'm looking for the actual experience when I'm sitting in my chair.

SPEAKER_04 58:54

And Greg, are there particular technical specifications you try to aim for?

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Well, I no, not technical specifications. Uh, I've got a sound in my head that I'm trying to get out. Um I sit down to do a new speaker design, uh, develop a new speaker. I am uh calling back to my memories of uh being 14 years old and being subjected to uh clips la scalas and 200 watts per channel Macintosh. Um and uh that was quite an experience. It was a uh a high-five store in Waterville, Maine called the Wingo Music Company. And the windows behind me, uh the plate glass windows were just moving, and it just really made an impression on me. I never got over it. Uh, it's still the sound that's sort of rolling around in there, and uh um you know, I've always been trying to refine it and make it better. Um so high sensitivity is my starting point. Um, you know, as I sit down and do a design, that starting point for me just just enters me into the room. Um, and that room for me is this big, wide open, dynamic, effortless, power set, powerful sound. And and I I'm still old school. Um at 14 years old. I mean, that was only a few decades ago. Um, but I'm still I'm old school. I've hung on to that. And uh I'm I'm not a big fan of uh uh DSP. You're not gonna see me come out with a speaker that's uh uh self-powered with DSP. Just not my thing. Uh I'm going to try to advance the art of building uh traditional horn speakers the way they have been built uh for many, many years. And um so you know, others I I understand other people, other designers wanting to start from something different, and that's great. In fact, I listened to a lot of their speakers, and I'm uh I I enjoy that sound as well. But for me, it's got to be that raw, big, powerful, dynamic, uh, completely enveloping sound.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Steven, are there particular sonic uh particular technical specifications you try to aim for?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Okay, well, separating a technical from the sonic, I would uh, you know, as you know, again, when I was doing more amps at one time and having to contend with um um oh boy, uh uh speakers that had 45 degree phase angles at at 20 hertz, um, and at that 45 degree phase angle uh 20 hertz, it was at one ohm. Uh so I I I I was he was laughing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So so uh to that degree, I I uh when I was kind of got back to doing speakers, I wanted to do what I called safe stereoing. And um, and and so impedance and electrical phase response uh was important to me, and or is important to me, I will say. Acoustic phase is important too. Those things, you know, when you're measuring with a microphone, you're measuring frequency response and and you're measuring phase, and you're measuring uh according to the what the room boundaries are going to be and what the acoustics of that particular room are. So so that's you know, that's kind of secondary. Um impulse response is very important to me, okay? Uh THD, second to fifth harmonics, is very important to me. Um you know, you can hear those things, you know, in terms of hangover, in terms of that speed, in terms of that resolution. When it comes to the drivers that can do that, yes, Florian has you know much lighter drivers than me. Thank you. But uh, you know, I do really try to have um uh low low inductance on the voice coils. That's very important. That's an energy storage point that also creates back EMF and amplifiers aren't happy with that. So um I think that that those are my notes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:08

We're running over the long. So question nine Should loudspeaker designers aim for flat frequency response or more of a downward sloping Harman curve? Please, each of you just uh tell us A or B. Shannon?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

I think they should aim for flat, but keep in mind the people that are listening to their speakers are gonna want the the round the curve.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:26

Florin, you've already suggested you don't care for flat frequency response.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Yes, but I mean two sentences. Sure. If you're an audio file that's over 70 years old, you might actually prefer the flat response or tipped up. So if that's your buyer, if that's your target age, do that. If your target age is someone who still has, it's a usable bandwidth, 12, 14 kilohertz, I would go for downsloped.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:57

Greg.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Uh last I checked, there was no big giant book somewhere of rules that says we have to do flat frequency response. And no, I'm not interested in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:08

Stephen. I think flat frequency response is a myth. And um, I I don't know why there's so much emphasis on it. You know, I my notes here saying if I'm going to kind of go with these whole curves thing, I prefer a Fletcher-Munson curve. Okay, where where we're most sensitive are those areas that you know where you know tigers are rustling in the grass about to eat us, and you know, that whole three 3k areas we're we're super sensitive to. When I say 3k, I'm not even talking directly, I'm talking about secondary and tertiary harmonic structures of that that we're just sensitive to. So in fact, I designed my my speaker so I have a little dip from about 2.7 to about 4.7k, and then I have I have switches on the back of my speakers that you can adjust what the roll-off is from about 12.5k on out.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Which by the way, Apigy Acoustics does that on a scintilla in the 80s, in the 81. They have exhausted this dip, and the cool side effect is that you get a much deeper sound stage depth out of the presentation. Yeah, right? So, yes, I I think we're all in agreement here. The the the guys that chase the purely linear ones are missing out.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:23

Yeah, I I personally have never heard a flat frequency response loudspeaker that sounds natural to me. It just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:31

We we don't hear flat, you know, even if it even if it's weighted as such, you know, in in you know, in the program or the mic or whatever, you know, it's it's it's a uh a not a great approximation.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

I'm much more partial until here, they don't want to hear like I don't know. It's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:51

I'm personally much more partial to a downward sloping Harman type curve.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

And I don't even know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

I don't either.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

Question 10. Now, I think viewers are going to enjoy this. I appreciate that it's a little bit sensitive for loudspeaker designers to talk about other brands. Oh, it's not. I think it's really interesting for viewers. Question 10. Each of you list for us a loudspeaker or two other than your own that you personally like in the under$10,000 range, and one you personally like in the under-20,000 range. Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Okay, so because I'm a maple syrup, swiggin, poutine, lichen, hockey fan, kind of proud Canadian girl, I decided that I would take a look around in my own backyard and some Canadian speaker manufacturers that are in southwestern Ontario within a couple hour drive of me. And I was also looking at beginners versus more, you know, a little more, um, a little more money into them. So, you know, totem speakers. They are, you know, you can get the$600 kin little bookshelves right up to their, what is it,$800,$300 for their forest signature. They are built not that far from here, a couple hours from here, and they've been around for 35 years. Um, you know, Vince Brissy is a great guy to talk to. It's a really nice three-dimensional sound. I I have no problem with totem speakers. And you know, like if you're then if you're going up to um a little more higher-end horn speakers, if you ever get a chance to listen to Joseph Crow, which is a little company that's in from Picton, Ontario, in beautiful Prince Edward County, just a few hours from here. And they are absolutely stunningly beautiful pieces of art, these speakers. Like they're the bookshelves is the ones that I'm thinking that like that are under the 10,000, they're like 7,400 to 8,400 bucks. Um the 5195.4 is, I think, is the ones that I'm thinking of. They're just beautiful, you know. Sure, they have much bigger horn speakers, which are really gorgeous. The art, like they're the wood on them, is just stunning. They're like aesthetically pleasing. You know, if you want to talk about a piece of art in a speaker, um, and they're, you know, they're non-they don't have, I have nothing bad to say about Joseph Crowe speakers, and they're just this little boutique y kind of place. Now, if you want to go up in the$20,000 budget, you know, we all know and love Val and Sherry Cora from Accora Acoustics and they're fantastic VRC granites. Like, come on, every show you go to, you've got to go and visit Val and Sherry, right? They um, but they're you know, a couple of the nicest people in the audio business. But a couple years ago at Expona, you know, Val ushered me back to behind the cur the man behind the curtain, and he kind of was doing like, I don't know, kind of a cassov launch of his MRC line. I think he's got MRC ones, the MRC twos, the MRC threes. The first ones that I saw were um in this bod white botticini marble instead of granite, they made it of marble, so they're still stone. And you know, they are what$10,000 to$20,000 for these absolutely fantastic, beautiful marble speakers that have every little bit of Accora Acoustics um magic inside of them. And you know, I actually, Ron, I think after the 2024 um expona, you made mention of a speaker company called Mako, which is from Etobicoke, and they make those mark, those um open baffle arcarios, right? They are sexy. Um they are like what 11,000, 12,000, you go up to maybe 17 for their unicorn or their special granite finishes, you know, 22,000, I think, for those special ones. But I mean, if you want to talk about aesthetically pleasing, these are beautiful, modern-looking speakers. And I know you can stand in the room anywhere, and there was like it was a very balanced, like there wasn't like any dead spots in the room. It was actually kind of cool. The for like they're what three and a half feet tall, they're they're not huge, but I was really, really impressed with uh makeup, you know, and we could talk about coherent audio, um, you know, from Bryson, which they've been making speakers since what 2012, 2013, and they're still like they're big model T's, they make them active or passive, they're still you know progressing. Um, you know, the Gershman's they're always they're they make some really beautiful speakers in um what is it, they're avant-garde's at$18,000 a pair, right? And they're all made right within a couple hour drive of me. It's kind of cool. Okay, Greg, give us a couple of names.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

I I have a couple for you. First off, I don't know if you all have heard uh the little speaker from Luka Chesky. Uh what a wonderful little speaker this thing is. I don't know the name of it, but uh I've heard it at a couple shows now. Um just a little cube thing. You all know what I'm talking about? Do you know the name of it? It's uh it's just a wonderful little speaker. It's got great tonal balance, uh, it's not very expensive, and uh, I just think you did a brilliant job on the design. Um, you know, I go around the uh the shows a lot, listen to other rooms, and I I hear a lot of things that I like. Um, but if I had to choose something uh that wasn't Bulti Audio, uh I actually I think I would pick a Clips Cornwall. And that might surprise some people to hear me say that. Uh a lot of people think I poo-poo clips all the time. And I do find fault, a lot of faults for their speakers. But uh when you come right down to it, Clips Cornwall has got uh it's got that sound, doesn't it? It's just got that that big horn speaker sound, very good tonal balance to it, um, you know, high sensitivity thing. I think it's just a very fun speaker to listen to music on. So I would I would pick the the Clips Cornwall.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:19

Steven. Well, some of them aren't really made anymore, but I I just remember really being enamored. No, I I prefer if you give us names that people can buy. Okay. Um well, okay, so it dates back to the Genesis Physics Corporation in the 70s. Okay. And and they they were part of EPI. Uh well, uh take that back. Their engineer came from EPI that they inverted that so-called what they call the inverted uh uh Airspring Dome Tweeter. And there's a guy, it's called Human Loudspeakers, and so he re-finishes those speakers or rebuilds those speakers and has a line of his own called Human Loudspeakers, and they're very inexpensive relative to most anything else out there. Um I think he makes a joke of one that he has, you know, you can get it with like 96 tweeters and 100 woofers, and it'll cost you so much. But it's it's he's kidding about that. He's very um economical with what he's doing. And um, you know, I just have a strong appreciation for that. And then there's a guy who's been around for a long time. Um you know, I've done a presentation with him before, and uh he, you know, he's really down to earth. And his name's Richard Vanderstein. And I think that you know, he's he's he's made uh some very long-lived products that that that provide for long-term listening for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Okay, but which speaker is under 10,000 he makes and under 20,000 he makes.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

Oh god, I don't know which ones. I just know the ones that I've heard that that I thought, you know, I I just enjoyed. I really did. And I enjoyed him as well as a human being, and that actually seems to matter to me. Okay, Florian.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Um, so under 10,000, I would pick the cube audio uh Monet, cube audio monet from Poland. That's my below 10,000 pick. Um actual driver, um, so single driver in a box. Um, fantastic fun speaker, one of the few and only box speakers I actually can listen to. Um, so I picked that one. Um, I think if you have five thousand dollars and you don't buy a Magna Pen 20.1, uh get your head examined,$5,000 on Magna Pen 20.1, put a Bryson 4B SST cube there. Sorry, like yeah, no-brainer. If I find one in my area, I will buy them. I will just put them in storage, I'll just buy them. Um, you guys in America are so lucky.$5,000 for 20.1. Dude, if I were living in America, I would have like 20 pairs of these. Anyway, um, that's super cool. Then a guy who is not around anymore, but if you can find them, Paul Hales. Oh yeah, oh yeah, Hailes Transcendent 8. Probably one of the best box speakers, in my opinion, ever made. If you can find one, they're super rare. Buy them, keep them, and cherish them. And if you want to sell them, call me.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:28

Since you mentioned a person that's not, you know, doing this anymore. I have to give a uh a call out to ESP speakers. Sean, uh, I can't remember how his last name's even pronounced. But those are really good.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Okay, my my answer under 10,000, I'm gonna say Magnapan 3.7i. I totally agree with Florian. Magnapan's an amazing value. Uh Prima Fidelity VAUFS, very dear friend of mine, Al Moritz on what's best, has the top of the line, Diana, and loves it. I'm also gonna say Volti Raz. Uh, under 20,000, I routinely recommend DeVore 096. I routinely recommend Wolf von Langassan, and I routinely recommend Clarissa's Piccolo. Used to be 20,000, it's more now. But I want you to be clear, I'm not saying these speakers by these designers because I'm trying to brown nose the guests. It's the other way around. The reason I know these speaker designers is because I happen to like these speakers and I've gotten friendly with each of them. So that's the reason they're here, and I'm happen to just genuinely like their speakers. Music segment. All right. We appreciate it, Ron. Who wants to go first? Steven or Shannon? Ladies first, Shannon. Ladies first, Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:42

So because I am a poutine, loving, maple syrup, swiggin, hockey fan, kind of a fucking girl, I decided to look my to look at some Canadian music and stuff that I enjoy for different reasons. Okay. And these are all OGs, these are all like original gangster albums. So don't look at the ringware, the vinyl inside is fantastic. I take really good care of them. So, first of all, I've got a little bit of Bachman Turner Overdrive, not fragile. One of my favorite BTO albums ever. Um, Mr. Turner and his bass line make me very, very happy. So here's to good rockin' Canadian music. And because it is April the 1st, um, I know it was released sometime in March of 1976, but you know what a rush fan I am. So I want to say happy 2112 Day. This is my OG gatefold. I do have a few different pressings of this, but this one actually is the one I love the most and I play it the least because it does sound so good. I want to keep it that way. So happy 2112 day. And lastly, something completely different. So there is a high school teacher from Hamilton. Her name is Diana Panton. She's a two-time Juno Award winner, jazz singer, and she studied with the late great Sheila Jordan. Um, seen her have the pleasure of seeing her a few times live. But this is one of my favorite albums from her, her second Juno Award-winning album called I Believe in Little Things. It's actually a children's jazz album, and it's beautiful, beautiful pieces of music. And we, you know, you look at the um musicians that Diana plays with, Don Thompson, who is an officer of the Order of Canada, Red Schwager, who is a member of the Order of Canada. When I saw her, the great, late great Guido Brasso was playing horns with her, also an Order of Canada. Um, you know, these people that are fantastic Canadian musicians that play with this absolutely lovely, lovely person. She is an absolute delight. So, and actually, I do have her other Juno Award-winning album, Red, which was the album that she won her first Juno for. Um, absolutely a treasure, a Canadian treasure is this lovely lady, I believe in little things by Diana Penn. So those are my three. Well, I snuck in a fourth, but you know. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

Steven. All right, so that's a difficult thing, you know. But I uh I bought this album in 1976. It's Brand X on Orthodox Behavior. Maybe some of you guys are familiar with this. And it's got Phil Collins on drums. It's the the the rhythmic complexity of this is extraordinary. It's it's you know, there's a little bit of overload on the mic from time to time, but it's the music is is something. It's really it's it's it's uh it just appealed to me as a as a guy who thought he wanted to be a musician at one time, but um instead of buying gungbat pungas with the money I made on the golf course, I put it to a a science project of building loudspeakers, and that was the downfall of my life uh in high school. And then um you know it's kind of hard to go wrong with Shakti John McLaughlin. So, you know, this this this is this is something um, you know Dan Meinwald uh brought this to a show, and we play this at least once, even at the very end of each show, we would play this, and I can't go tired of it. You know, Zakir Hussein, the late, you know, Zachir Hussein plays tablas on here and plays clay pots, and he does his thing. So so that's that's number two for me, and then a late 50s, I think it's 1959. Um uh uh Beethoven violin concerto in D with Joshua Heifetz, of course. And so this is this I could listen to it day and night. I mean, it's just you know, I am so soothed by this and engaged by this in a in a very different way than than the others. So those are my three. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:21

Florie, did you pull something for us? Well, so so three, but I only have one physical medium, which I've found. The other ones are a couple of feet away. Um, so completely standard audio file stuff, I guess. Um, my favorite is still Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon, and I do have it on half-inch master tape 30 IPS. Wow, wow, show up, and we we have the the ampeks right there, yeah, with magnetic flux head and direct tape output. And I have to admit, um, so I you know this. I mean, everybody has this album, and everybody has this album, and I don't know, a hundred different pressings and a hundred different editions. And what's absolutely crazy is that um we play with very fine equipment here, both in digital and analog. Um, but you hear things on this tape which you do not hear on any other medium, and it just makes this album fantastic because you can re-experience it and you will find more and more and more details, even after you listen to this thing for for the hundredth time. So, this is one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:37

Well then before you leave that, tell us tell us your favorite vinyl pressing of that title because people can't buy your tape, but I want people to be able to buy your favorite vinyl pressing of that title.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Oh god, I'll do you a favor, I'll check it later, I'll let you know in the comments. We can put it on there. I um honestly my brain is pretty fried at 4 22 a.m. I know, you're unbelievable, I know. But um, so this number two for me is um deep purple life in Japan. Oh um, I I absolutely love that thing, child in time. I can hear that basically up and down on repeat. Um, don't know why, just love it. And then the other one is kind of weird, I guess. I don't know how to pronounce this, but uh Les Miserables, um, the play um from Klaus Schönberg, um, simply because of the emotional power and the drama that it has in his life. And um, so I listened to a wide variety of music, um, from rock to let's say the musical/slash opera, probably more musical than opera. And um, yeah, those are my my three picks. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:41

Greg, any music for us?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:43

Uh yes. Um, wow, what great selections uh from everyone. I are you gonna list these, Ron?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:50

Uh I you see what I have back here.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:52

I have uh No, are you gonna list them uh for us?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:56

Uh well people will have to see them by watching the show. But if you send me the if you send me the um titles and links to Cobaz or something, I can certainly list them in the comments.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Yeah, all right. I do have a couple things. Um I don't have physical media, I have uh digital. Uh but here this is a uh an opera piece that I absolutely love. I was introduced to this by uh a person that came to my uh demo room. Uh he put it on and he put it on very loud, and it just startled me. And I said, Isn't that quite loud? And he said, Greg, he says, I've been to uh uh places in Europe where they uh do this performance. Uh it's Mozart Requiem. He says it can get very loud. He said, in those in those rooms, just acoustic, uh you know, not being amplified or anything. And um so I recommend playing this very loud. Uh this is uh uh from the Mozart Requiem uh sequence tuba mirum. Uh I'll just hold this up so you can see this. See if that see if that translates.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:02

Sure, we can see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:03

Okay, good. Um play it loud. That's my recommendation. Uh and and by the way, I play it at the show. Um uh anytime I can get away with it, and I do turn it up loud, uh, just as loud as I can get away with. Uh and the other one I have for you is I'm not going to show you this one, uh, but it's uh a very folksy tune by uh a person named C Sick Day, uh sorry, C Sick Steve. Uh and his album title is You Can't Teach an Old Dog New Tricks. Uh that hits home for me. Uh and uh the name of the song is Treasures, and it's just a very folksy tune. There's uh three instruments and a vocal. And uh Shannon, you'll appreciate this because you can really, really pick out uh the the uh the instruments and their placement uh in the sound stage, and it's really wonderful, and I highly recommend it. Uh CSIC Steve. That's all I got for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:10

Well, this has been a great show. Thank you. I love the music segment, so thanks very much to each of you for giving our viewers music recommendations. So again, don't forget, you'll go forward. We're gonna do the show the second Wednesday and the fourth Wednesday of every month. I'm gonna be at Expona on April 8th. If you see me walking around Expona, please don't hesitate to flag me down. I'd love to meet you in person. The next high five five will be April 22. Thanks so much, everybody. Thank you. And Florian, thanks so much for staying up later. Good night, everybody. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:46

Bye bye, bye bye.