The HiFi Five Episode 28: Multi-Channel for Audiophiles

The HiFi Five Episode 28:  Multi-Channel for Audiophiles

Guests:

Ulrike Schwarz — Grammy award-nominated co-founder of multi-channel recording firm Anderson Audio New York

Andrew Quint — Senior Writer at The Absolute Sound 

Arian Jansen — founder and designer of Sonorus Audio

Danny Kaey — Sonic Flare, hifi reviewer

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to the 28th episode of the High Five Five. I'm Ron Resnick. Please like this video and subscribe to the channel. Tonight's guests, I'm delighted to have an amazing panel of guests tonight. Ulricky Schwars is a famous sound engineer and music producer. She is the co-founder of Anderson Audio New York, collaborating with Jim Anderson on award-winning stereo, surround, and immersive recordings. Ulrichki is the recipient of multiple major international awards and Grammy nominations. Arian Jansen is the founder and designer of Sonoris Audio, a hand analog and recording technology company. Arian created Sonoris Holographic Imaging, an analog process to extract 3D spatial information from digital files for more immersive stereo playback. Danny Kay is back, runs YouTube channel Sonic Flair and a hi-fi reviewer, and is actually a multi-channel fan. Andrew Quint is a senior writer at The Absolute Sound. He's written about music, musicians, recordings, and audio components for more than 25 years. And I think he's the Absolute Sound's biggest aficionado on uh on multi-channel. Welcome, everybody. What's up? Beginning at the beginning, what is stereo? Briefly, Danny, what are the issues with stereo that surrounds sounds seeks to fix?

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So I think the fundamental problem with stereo is that um there's no spatial information contained in the two monosignals that then create the stereo uh presentation uh in front of you. And it's really down to room acoustics and your setup and speakers to create this illusion. Uh there's no height information, there's no surround information contained in it, there's no depth information contained in it. Uh it's all purely an illusion. And I think uh surround sound, obviously, and there's you know, of course, many, many tiers of surround sound uh throughout the years, uh aims to fix much of that by providing uh the correct spatial cues and uh containing it within the signal for then to be extracted and played back in your uh own four walls.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Already, what were the deficiencies in stereo that prompted you uh to get into multi-channel in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Well, I mean, I I I'd just like to say that I mean stereo by itself means 3D. I mean, the the Greek where the word comes from, the Greek definition would be anything not mono. And I mean, I have a lot of very famous stereo engineer colleagues who would say um that's not true, because we don't have two mono signals. We have two signals that create phantom images, and uh I would say you can create depth. The problem is that the depth is going behind your speakers. You can actually create depth, you can create height, but if you actually sit in a surround set or in an immersive set where the speakers are all around you, then of course you are immersed in that in this in the situation and your emotional your emotional cont contact to the music is gonna is gonna be much more uh much higher. I mean, research has shown that. And and also it is if you play someone the same recording in a stereo mix and in an immersive mix, yes, they will, if it's done well, they will love the immersive probably more. And I mean, I I'm I've been doing this now for um 25, almost 25 years, uh surround and immersive. And for me, it is the emotional envelopment and that the the fact that you can um transport music much more emotionally in three in 2D and 3D. So I I yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

What does your system try to fix that uh stereo does not reproduce?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Well, basically, um if if you look at stereo as as we as we know it, basically, uh there is the the the information, uh at least on let's say the this the sound stage, uh the depths and everything, pretty much up to almost 180 degree sound field, is there. It is picked up uh and discernible uh by the microphone setup. Um, one of the issues you have is that we have a playback system, which everybody uses, which is basically two speakers, uh, one less 20 degrees off to the left, and another uh one 20 degrees off to the right. And if you look at that in how we record uh music basically, especially if you take, let's say, a very simple thing like a bloom line microphone setup or something like that, there is no logical place, absolutely no logical place for two speakers, one to the left and one to the right, to uh reproduce that with all the information intact to uh at the listening position. And that that is not happening, and that's why everything kind of tends to flatten out, and you need to have a lot of uh imagination basically, and your brain is very good in doing that to fill in those blanks. So I I I look at this obviously a little bit from my uh holographic imaging uh technology, which I developed mainly because uh my main driver was that I never liked symphony orchestras in stereo. So uh early on I always listened to symphony orchestras in mono, so I didn't have to be bothered by the stereo screw up, I guess I'll call it like that. But basically, from my uh technology point of view, I'm fixing the fact that we're uh listening to two speakers left and right, and that correction basically uh reveals all the spatial information that is there in the in the stereo mix. That does not uh solve the stuff that's behind you, but um for if if I do recording with the Erlung records, for instance, then we will uh add the uh the rear hole in uh in the rear channels of the holographic imaging uh processor. But yeah, that that is basically the the main problem with stereo is that uh all the spatial information, pretty much 180 degrees forward and depth, is there, but is simply not properly presented if you just uh plug that into uh two speakers. It needs to be uh modified for that to actually get that sound feel to your uh to the listener.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Andy, what does your multi-channel system do for you that uh stereo does not accomplish?

SPEAKER_05 6:45

My enthusiasm for space spatial music um is very much empiric. If I go to uh an orchestra concert and I sit 100 feet from the orchestra, I I can detect three things that are spatially important to me. I can um I can I have insights about the disposition of the uh players on stage, you know, who's in front of who. Um, I can get a sense of the room. You know, is it a big hall? Is it a small hall? What's the what's it made of? Is it an old uh European hall or a modern American one? And finally, you get a sense of sound in the air around you. With a stereo recording, you can very often get uh the first. You know, that's what we call sound staging, that's what we call imaging for time immemorial. Um, you can also sometimes get a sense of the room, especially if there's a loud sound followed by a sign, a silence. The um the third thing, which is music in the air around you, what we might call envelopment, is extremely rare. The uh multi-channel approach is very democratizing. You don't have to have an enormous room to achieve those things. You can be in a smallish room and with a carefully set up immersive system get all three of those things on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Arian, why question number two? Arian, why do you believe that stereo can't fully reproduce whole acoustics? What is perceptually missing?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Well, if you look at uh conventional stereo, um the the the the majority of uh of whole acoustics uh is are around you, they're literally around you. So even though the microphones in the stereo recording may pick up the whole acoustics, they are still presented in front of you. Um again, with uh I I look at this obviously uh a lot from my holographic imaging point of view. I can get a lot of that acoustics restored all the way up to about 180 degrees from a stereo recording. Um, but if I have multi-channel information, uh 5.1 or 7.1, where actually there is uh information on the uh in the the the the rear channels of the whole acoustics, um I can get it literally to be around you, and that makes an enormous uh difference. So in stereo, especially conventional stereo, most of it will be contained to the front of the of the listener, and if you put the whole acoustics in there, they are in there, but they're still at the front of the listener and not uh do not appear as if you're in the hole.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

When I go to Walt Disney concert hall, I don't hear that much from behind me, I hear most of it in front of me. So why do we really need to go down this road?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Well, basically, you you do not hear, you do not uh consciously hear the sound around you, um, because you're listening to the to the performance, but that sound around you is there and it really gives you the sense of of being there. And in Walt Disney Hall, you are there, so you're that being there is obviously an automatic thing, you don't uh pay any attention to it. But once you get uh home and you want to reproduce that, and that whole uh uh effect around you disappears, then all of a sudden it doesn't sound uh that realistic anymore. So it's it's a subconscious, uh, very important part of your experience that you have the whole sounds literally around you.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Annie, did you want to say something?

SPEAKER_05 10:29

I did, I because because um uh what you were saying is so is so profoundly true. Before we went on the air, we were talking about how strongly defended uh audiophiles are, many of them against this, and they often will throw up uh straw dogs like I don't want to hear a clarinet coming from off over my soldier over my shoulder. I mean, unless you're listening to uh the Berlioz Requiem, where there's supposed to be a brass band over your right and left shoulders, that's not how it is. It's it's far more subtle, it's it's far more subliminal. And if you put your ear up next to the surround channels in a typical orchestral recording, there's there's just a faint echo of the performance there. That's what you need for it to register the way it does in Walt Disney Hall.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Ulrichki, what do you feel is missing perceptually or physically from two channel by itself?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

I mean, I think um uh surround sound or immersive is actually much more creative than just reproducing a hall image. I think uh once you have uh 10, 12 speakers around you, you can actually reinterpret a whole composition. I mean, it's like from the jazz or pop world, you I I can just say you can you can place a big band all around you and even push it up uh into the height speakers. I mean, you can totally superimpose images. I mean, uh to me, uh immersive is a is a great big playing field. And uh once you have composers, band leaders who are actually um conceiving of music in immersive, you have a completely different animal. Uh so I mean, yes, the the the bulk of of the information will still come from the front because this is how we environ like how how we function. But I I you know recording is not reality, and reality is not recording. I mean, and that's not what we what we try to do. I mean, we really try to um give you a completely new experience that you can't do in stereo because in stereo there's only two uh two speakers that you can put your information in. And I mean you have two speakers and the field between it. And now that you have uh a field of 10, 12, 64, whatever channels, I mean, if if you are good, you can you can completely um create new images and new soundscapes. So that to me, uh I I I got very uh early. I mean, like I had to work you know in an environment where orchestra was on stage, the hall was behind it. But now I'm I'm kind of much have much bigger freedom in in really reinventing what music is. I'm not we're not transporting a hall, we are transporting music. And I think that's really what it's about in immersive music.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Danny, what is multi-channel? I know you're a big fan of Arian's process. What does Arian's process uh give to you in terms of increasing the believability of your system?

SPEAKER_02 13:21

I mean, I think you know it's it's kind of tied to what I was going to say uh just a moment ago, um, based on what Ulrike and Andrew were saying. Uh I I think while a well-set up stereo hi-fi can convince you and fool you into thinking you're listening to a proper uh recording with depth and sound and image and all that. Um Arian's SHI process in particular takes that to a whole new level. It really takes the speakers. If you have phase-coherent speakers, it it really takes the speakers completely out of the equation. And if you're listening to a stereo recording, you get the true sense of what was contained within the recording. If you're listening to a uh surround mix processed in SHI, you get the full 270-degree view. Again, if you have face coherent speakers, that is a requirement. Uh and you know, every time I I do the demo for people, they're like in complete disbelief. I mean, they look to the back. Where are the speakers? Danny, where'd you put the speakers? I don't see any walls wall-mounted speakers. I'm like, there aren't any. You're just listening to the two Wilsons up ahead of you. Um and so that's it's it's realism. It's it's that further suspension of belief to to create and achieve an image in front of you, surrounding you, immersing you. I hate that term, but let's just use it for shits and giggles, um, into the recording, into the performance.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Question number three. Andy, what is the full universe of different types of multi-channel, immersive, uh surround? Let's just get the uh list of candidates out there for people.

SPEAKER_05 15:22

Well, you mean in terms of uh in terms of uh recording codecs? Um we've we've mentioned um we've mentioned Atmos, we've mentioned Oro 3D, and there and there are others. Um there is dumbed down um Dolby uh Atmos, which is Dolby Digital Plus, which is what you get from Apple Music, and there's Sony 360 reality audio, there's DTX Um X. But um I I'd also like to uh return to the idea of what we are trying to accomplish with multi-channel. Multi-channel is a means to an end, immersive is a means to an end, and that is really the focus should be on um on what was said right out of the gate um by by Danny, which is that we're looking for spatiality as a reality trigger. So that involves um a number of things other than envelopment. There is depth and proximity, for example, there's rebirth, occasionally there's there's motion, there's a spatial extent and resolution. These um these terms and several others have been uh defined in sort of an academic setting by Edgar Schwary, who is the inventor of the Bach crosstalk cancellation filter. There are some things that multiple speakers can't address, and you need to continue to attend to the room, you need to attend to the choice of speakers that you have, um, and uh and to some of these other things as well. So um just um placing a lot of speakers around the room won't necessarily do it. You still have to attend to um to more typical um audiophile metrics.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Ulricky, what specific recording technique have you adopted in terms of number of channels, or does that vary depending upon the objective of the artist you're recording?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Actually, uh the the format that we record in very much depends on the music that's being recorded and even the album that might be recorded. So some things might sound great in 5.1, others five need height, others need a bigger stage and height. So I think I I want to clarify a couple of things. So what what we've been talking about were adaptive systems like um Dobby Atmos or uh Sony 360, where you have um virtual speakers like object-based speakers, and then there are native systems where the speakers actually have to be in the right place for the recording to sound good in reproduction.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Uh Rika, real real quick, sorry to butt in. Can you maybe for the audience explain real quickly, if you can, what an object-based Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

So an adaptive system is um you have an expectation, or the recordist has an expectation where the speakers are. And uh you to every audio information you put a metadata information that kind of pins that audio information to a virtual point in the room. So that means uh even if you, the listener, don't have the speakers in the let's say correct or in the in the uh setup that I had when I recorded it, it will magically with your processor and your speakers, wherever that is, pinpoint that piece of audio in your room. So that already tells you there's a lot of processing, a lot of uh codec, encoding, decoding involved. So that's probably in an audiophile sense not ideal. Then there are the native systems, so the static systems like 5.1, where you actually have to have the speakers on the ITU set up more or less with uh left, center, right, in 60 degrees and the center in the center on a on a circle, and then the uh left and right speakers between 115 and 135 degrees. But not many rooms will be able to do that, and it's actually very difficult to have this room set up that way, and especially then if you have everything phase coherent and then add speaker, height speakers to it. So I I see a lot, I see a lot of reason for Dolby Atmos or Eclipse or the systems that will that will succeed um Dolby Atmos. Um, so so when I or when we do recordings, we always are going channel-based or static. So that we can adapt it to Atmos or to Eclipse or to any format that will proceed. The other one more problem with Atmos is at the moment it is limited to 48 kilohertz. Uh, we usually record in either 384 kilohertz or 352 kilohertz. So, I mean, we we do ultra HD recordings that then are being folded down to a rather uh let's say to a low um sampling rate with a lot of metadata. And I feel that is very much heard, and that's why we try to always also offer our recordings in the channel-based version and in very, very high resolutions on platforms like um native DSD, HD tracks or whatever. And uh, I what what Andrew I think will also refer to there is a new uh high-definition immersive streaming service that either streams Atmos or a format called Auro 3D, which is from Belgium, that is a channel-based uh recording channel-based system that can also do 96 kilohertz. So, I mean that's already in better in on two terms. Um so I think that's kind of just to give a technical base setup for what can be done these days in terms of streaming. But I will always I will say probably you are better off with um files that you have on your home computer than any streaming, although pure audio is very good. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Arian, tell us about your process. Very simply, I understand you start with a, even if it's an analog recording, I understand you start with a digital file. What exactly does your process do to that two-channel digital file?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I again I do not necessarily start with a digital file. It can be uh can be analog because the process is fully analog. So if I start with digital files, it's because I uh I like the the the purity of uh of the the copy of the master tape in that case, uh if I don't have the master tape myself. So um, and that's a nicer starting. points than when I use some copy of a copy of a copy of a master tape. So that's the reason I use mainly digital content and then obviously for the for the multi-channel sources I use digital content. It's either 5.1 or 7.1. But it's it's a it's a fully analog system. If uh as you know I'm a recording engineer with uh uh Yarlong Records and we use the holographic imaging uh on stage in the fully analog mode so everything uh all the microphones we have there go into the holographic imaging processor comes out in two channels and then uh goes to the uh the the analog tape recorder as well as to the DXD recorder and the PCM recorder so we record it three times basically in the same uh analog feed but the holographic imaging is fully analog so for let's say the the the remasters I do on existing recordings I normally use uh digital starting points because the digital copies are especially nowadays so much better from the from the original if they even exist in an analog form than let's say an uh an third generation uh analog copy from the master tape so that that's that's my reason why uh why I basically use digital sources but to to answer your your question basically on the on the different types of uh uh uh the immersive audio in my case I'm kind of focusing in this group obviously more on the on the two-channel reproduction uh of of immersive audio so uh the different uh systems that we've seen over the years are obviously mbiophonics they were kind of early in the 70s to to do a similar type of thing with two channel to kind of get more uh uh spaces into later on you got carver which is sonic holograph uh holography and you had srs and obviously uh that were in the 80s and the 90s you got q sound and now we have uh bach of course but all all these systems they predominantly uh focus on crosstalk cancellation and crosstalk cancellation is uh only a minor point to really get a convincingly uh uh uh 3D presentation from uh from two speakers that also remains and that now the last part is extremely important uh a lot of these systems that we had Q sound so far was the best one but at a very narrow frequency range where if you listen to it uh 20 times or over a matter of years that the illusion basically remains and that for me was very important with uh with my SHI development that the illusion that you get has to be so good that it will remain it will not degrade over time because your brain slowly uh uh gets into the trickery so again the the the other ones they all focus mainly on cross talk uh crosstalk cancellation and uh in my system there is some level of crosstalk uh cancellation for certain parts but it's not uh the main thing it's just a way to get a little bit better control over uh over your ears basically but it's not a main thing in the in hologram imaging uh I use a process I called association and that is very important because if you do just look uh use uh crosstalk cancellation uh like my uh many uh many of the others do you can actually not move uh a full instrument completely outside the speaker fields uh reliably and for the longer term and with SHI and I've demonstrated to several people basically I can take a complete drum kit bass drum symbols everything and I can move that uh to almost completely to the right and it will stay there including the symbols and the the bass drum even though your ears cannot really place it there but the association that happens in your brain will allow you basically to have the whole drum kit outside of speaker field.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

May I ask a question here um because if you do that to um recordings that you haven't done um as a recording engineer I I very often we do have actually an intention why things are where they are and I mean what what you're describing is that basically you're taking the mix apart and uh taking it into a different dimension.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Have you ever checked with people who have done the recordings whether that is this is the intention I mean I I I I find it I find it interesting but I I have as as as a as an engineer I'd be like well yeah I think that's not where it was supposed to be yeah I I I I understand I understand what you're saying and uh I did not I actually was saying this about this drunk kit not from uh an existing uh recording but from uh making a recording because I work uh I'm a recording engineer at Yarlong Records where we do everything basically on stage live in the in holographic imaging um but just uh for uh for a demo that I did for a couple of people here just in my own studio um to say to see what SHI could do is I could take a drum kit rec uh recording full drum kit and move it to the side and what's the idea I mean what what's the musical context idea behind that? That that was not the the the musical context there that was just to show that SHI can do something that all the other crosstalk cancellation uh systems cannot can you just tell me very specifically when you say SHI can do something what is SHI doing exactly are you twisting a pot somewhere what is exactly happening from the mixing console basically I can just move the uh the image of an uh certain recording completely to the right if I want I mean that is I agree it's not something that you necessarily want to do but um uh if you have an uh a real multi-channel system you could basically do that if you would want to do that but for a two-channel uh system like again QSound or a bach or something you cannot really do that without it falling apart and you're doing this by adjusting phase you're not adjusting crosstalk so you're adjusting phase again there in in the system there is some uh some crosstalk cancellation for only parts of it basically but in the system there is an uh uh you you do adjust I mean it's it's it's a real-time analog system there's not a bit flipping basically so uh everything comes down to amplitude uh uh phase LEQ if you want to call it like that um but if you do that smart together with uh some crosstalk uh cancellation at the right uh points you are able to to really move whole uh a whole uh audio spectrum like a drum kit to the site if you want i mean it's not that you necessarily want to do that but you can do it just for instance Danny did we miss any other techniques here uh my head is swirling are you are you familiar with Bach have you played with Bach at all uh I've only heard it in demos um and I can I the the only thing I can say is that uh Arian's SHI process to me uh creates a much better perspective of the sound uh than than does Bach.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Moreover it's it's completely transferable there's no equipment needed uh and again depending on what you're listening to whether it's a remastered stereo um image and and Ulrike by the way real quick just just to uh to point out so you know I I think um the the some of the misconceptions that come up is that you know oh Arian processes a stereo recording and you know suddenly I've got the drums on the left were intentionally they were supposed to be on the right none of that happens I mean the the the exact um the the the content isn't being changed uh when he's doing of course it's being changed I mean if you're starting to add uh a a whatever I mean really as as somebody who who basically deals with music I mean we've we've seen people trying to extract from a stereo miles davis recording and then a a drum kit and and you know at some point the drum kits didn't sound like a jazz drum kit anymore and I mean there there is a reason why for example certain recordings like a mono Miles Davis recording will always sound best mono miles davis because that's exactly how all the all the elements were supposed to be stringed together at that moment it's not gonna get better if I blow it up into a quasi anything. So I mean I I'm a little bit I fully agree on that because I I can't I mean we we kind of have to keep keep it keep it uh where you know where the music the people who did the recordings also it's optimized for something yeah and it's optimized uh for for whatever the format was in that moment and yes uh a a you will never make a stereo two track into a convincing surround or immersive recording it's just not quick quick question Ulrika do you prefer watching uh an original VHS copy of Star Wars or do you prefer watching the 4K Blu-ray? Well but I know what the master was if they do it for the master was the master what with that that uh what's his name created and he later said that's not really what I wanted well no no the master oh hold on in in in in in kind of as a production you you will before digital it was never possible for the consumer to have anything close to the master so now with digital files we're kind of getting we got we're getting there that we can sell the master actually and what what the intention was so yes if it comes from the master and it then it's turned into a different deliverable yes I would love the newer deliverable but the deliverable was still even with color grading changed well I'm not sure the visit I'm not sure the movie thing is a great analogy I want to move on to that's not the analogy color grading color grading changes the color of the image that you're seeing completely changes it yeah but but still you're coming from a higher master and now you're creating a new deliverable here is you take the master and and create something that the people who created the master didn't really have in mind unless it's your recording that's kind of I'm I'm I'm I'm having a little bit of a I'm having a little bit of a creative and actually a copyright uh and and an intentional uh Ricky that is actually not not what I'm uh not what I'm doing if I use uh an existing recording everything will still land at exactly the same place uh uh where it's but then why don't you play the master i i'm sorry i mean it's like i i i do masters all the time yeah because it's a very simple uh thing that in the master there is not the proper information to play it back over speakers and if if that's not the case you will never really get the proper uh so basically all of us the recording engineers were idiots no we we mix two speakers i mean yeah we mix two speakers yeah so again but what what do you do for uh to uh solve let's say the the the face errors that you have in placement if you just do an uh uh a normal mix i don't solve them i pass in them exactly i basin them no exactly i i want it to sound the way that i that i turned it in i don't want it to be blown up into something so i mean i'm i'm having uh i'm having a little hard time uh here uh because i mean i under i understand i understand yeah i understand we're we're moving on folks andy i want to ask you can i wanty i want to ask you about bach do you have any oh wait a second ron g give give arian a chance to to respond okay yeah i would like to ask i would i'd like to uh add one thing and that is very important actually um i've not done this all in a vacuum basically i've uh again i'm a recording engineer myself uh as well as a mixing uh and a mastering engineer but i also have uh done several demonstrations in studios mainly here in la for artists and uh engineers and producers to see what uh what they think of the the way that the shi basically or ssr is actually stereo uh uh scenario stereo revelation how it presents their uh their mix and everybody has been extremely positive about it if they actually hear it and hear what their mix actually can sound if you do it uh through SHI and that for me is a very important uh uh thing so that I know that I'm not bastardizing people's uh recordings.

SPEAKER_05 35:44

Andy what is your experience with the Bach if any? I I've had a Bach processor for three years now and um I I think it's it's critical that we that we explain what's going on here because when people hear Bach, they immediately say that this is a gimmick.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

It's not a gimmick it is restoring to um to the experience of of listening to the recording something which is um degraded by the room because of crosstalk cancellation the idea that what's supposed to go to your left ear and only your left ear is getting to the right ear and vice versa through this complex um uh mathematical process um the Bach uh technology makes sure that that that doesn't happen so it restores something that was there all along it's not adding anything it's not it's not creating anything and um with a remarkable number of recordings not just purist ones not just classical ones even some studio mixes that are uh synthetic by definition improve from this this is just a way of of of dealing with the reflections that are in inevitable in most any um domestic listening space question number four if a recording is captured natively in multi-channel and then mixed down to stereo as another type of release what is lost in the mix down to stereo Alricky please well usually if we have a multi-channel recording it's done also multi-track and the stereo mix will be a separate mix so we don't do down mixes and then stereo is a different experience as we have now talked about for for a while than the immersive one um when I was working at German radio we had to do um we had to deliver 5.1 and stereo at the same time and it came out uh I think ORF Austrian radio did a down mix we did two separate mixes because we just thought it you couldn't you couldn't do down mixing so I'm I'm a big proponent of uh doing actually an immersive mix a 5.1 mix and a stereo mix so that's how I would approach it always Erin what do you think well if if you just uh take a 5.1 mix and you the you mix it down to conventional stereo then uh basically everything that the 5.1 mix stood for which is actually getting you this uh this information around you is all collapsed back to the front so that normally does not uh does not help and that's why uh like Ulrike says uh most people will do just a separate stereo mix from the from the multi-channel mix because that makes more sense um again for uh if I look at from my SHI point of view um I can use the rear channels to actually appear in the rear and that is uh very important I can basically get uh a 270 degrees uh sound field and uh the the the rear channels are very important in in getting that if if if I had that uh available um and I can even have stuff uh going around you if you want uh uh I had you uh often uh a demo of of craftwerk uh Danny knows that very well uh you can have actually stuff uh in the Kraftwerk mix which is a very nicely done 5.1 mix uh going around you you can hear it completely uh going uh around you even though at SHI the the points uh behind you does not exist so uh if it moves fast enough you don't uh notice that it disappears for a while but uh you can basically uh get that fools around effect in uh in SHI but if you would mix that down just to conventional stereo then all the the information is there but again the the face uh the the conversion problem from uh conventional stereo to playing it back over speakers that conversion problem is always there also have you ever education actually set up a multi-channel thing with high channels high speakers no i have not i i wish i wish i did i wish i had um but to be perfectly honest with you given uh given arian's shi I I don't feel the need I have to fair enough andy when you compare um recordings captured natively in multi-channel and then compare a mix down of that original multi-channel recording to two-channel what do you feel gets lost what are how would you compare the difference in experience as an audiophile I have to agree with all Ricky that that doesn't happen you know all those hundreds of recordings that Telarc made they always use two mic setups one for multi-channel and one for stereo um so I I I think when um I mean the very very best um jazz immersive recordings come uh come from Jim Anderson and all Ricky's uh lab and um they they were intended at they were intended at the time and uh a separate stereo mix um is is available as well so I I I don't I don't find that to be uh especially relevant I also want to address something that uh that um Danny just said which is that uh as as the expression goes in this business if you haven't heard it you don't have an opinion i i did 5.1 for uh and 5.0 for 20 years and adding those four height spear speakers was miraculous it's not just that you get um vertical information it does something that um makes the uh floor level speakers uh far more transparent so it's not just uh that you're getting a height effect in there it's it's that the experience is really an entirely uh transformed that's been my experience we know the purpose of Arian system is to take a native stereo recording and expand it into a an immersive concept are there other techniques that other companies use to take a natively stereo recording and generate um uh the multi generate the additional channels that get played through the 5.1 Ulrichy well I mean the there is the old binaural uh recording but that's kind of goes back almost to the 30s and 40s where you kind of just have a two-channel recording or where uh I mean there's a famous Neumann microphone that is the head and has two caps in here and that that that will give you a a a binaural and a basically a 3D recording with two channels that is uh if listened back to in in headphones that that is great.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Unfortunately in in in modern studio recordings that is very difficult to do because mostly where we record everybody's in in their own booth so like just a two-channel um microphone is not really helping because you would have to have one of those fritzes in every booth and our intention is also not to to show you the booth but then actually to show you the instrument and then create the immersive uh impression with a real room later so um to my knowledge I I mean there is of course the unfortunate uh binaural uh algorithm of of um Dolby Atmos for headphones which is awful that basically folds uh the the Atmos image into two channels which is that that that doesn't work yet um but I haven't I haven't really come across one where stereo is being except real binaural where stereo is being turned into a convincing 5.1 uh or a five point one or a three dimensional system now. I mean I know Dr. Trey and I know his bath system and uh we have had at the audio engineering society there have been massive discussions pro and contra the system and um I mean he he he is he is great. There is no No doubt about that. But uh again it's a different method, and sometimes uh to me it works, sometimes it doesn't. Um no, so far I have not come, I have not come up to something convincing, up mixing-wise, no.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Who can explain to us as simply as possible exactly what does the process uh the Bach process do? My understanding, I may be totally wrong, is that somehow it prevents the right channel information from reaching the left ear and the left channel information from reaching the right ear.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

I think uh Andy gave a very, very good uh explanation of it earlier.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

I think Andy, Andrew, you would be Well, yes, uh that that's that that is exactly right. But to um to comment further, and and I'm guessing that uh um Ulrike has not uh experienced this yet, Edgar's latest um software is called Stratos, which is a way of giving the experience of five channels or or nine channels through two speakers. What he does is to make these filters um uh with the listener's head pointing in the direction of phantom speakers. And um you feed it a real multi-channel or at most recording, and uh lo and behold, those uh that information appears where there ain't no speaker.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

I think did he have that last year at Expona as well? Did he have like his foil? Uh I th maybe I heard it last year at Expona.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Or is it really from this year?

SPEAKER_05 45:32

It's really from this year. Oh, then I haven't read it. Um and uh well I I had a chance, I had a chance to write it up, and I'm not going to say it's a hundred percent envelopment because it's not, but it's um it's it's it's really it's really pretty good, and it's better than just plain Bach.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

So that's our question number five. Can a stereo recording ever be expanded convincingly into immersive? So you're saying that's what that box process does? You start with a two-channel recording and he j he he synthesizes the sound?

SPEAKER_05 46:05

No, it's it's actually the opposite. He starts with a with an immersive or multi-channel recording and then processes it in such a way that you get the experience of listening to multi-channel or immersive through two speakers.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

And how convincing and believable do you find the results when you listen to music?

SPEAKER_05 46:22

Well, I I think the most impressive aspect of multi-channel and immersive is the envelopment sense. And um it it gets perhaps 70% of the way there. But if I if I know Dr. Schwery, he'll he'll get it further. Dr. Schwery's results, by the way, are very, very speaker dependent. You have to have you have to have a good room, and you really have to have speakers that are very directive. So he he prefers Janssen speakers, he prefers Sanders speakers, electrostatics that are that are very directive. And it's the well doesn't he have his own development?

SPEAKER_00 46:56

I mean, last year he had his own these old little, you know, those those desk speakers, those electrostatic desk speakers, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

Yes, they're they're called, I think, uh DC squared for the two doctors C's that were involved. But um, you know, that that's a near field experience, and um that's that's not what most audio files want sitting at a desk. Question number six.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

When you still uh can I still uh answer five? Sure, sure. Because I think for me uh that that is an important one because again, SHI as a recording tool is isn't isn't uh has multi-channel input. But um a lot of what I do is uh kind of remaster uh uh existing stereo recorder recordings to get if the information is in the recording. Again, I I do not add anything. Um, if the information is in the recording but it's not properly uh comes out over two speakers, which for 80% of the information is actually true, it does not come out properly over the speakers. So if you do that and if the recording is good, you will get uh not a fully immersive uh uh uh experience because that rear information has to be separate already for that, but you can get, like I said, uh an ambience basically that uh goes all the way up to about 180 degrees, and you also get all your instruments uh all of a sudden much more credibly placed on the on the side stage, and I think that is very important that people uh pick up on that it's it is still exactly the same recording as what I had, but it also all of a sudden has a completely uh three-dimensional presentation where the speakers completely disappear. And one of the important things, and that's what sets this apart from all the other kind of things like the Q sounds and the bugs and the the carvers and ambiophonics, is that if I do those SSRs, the Sonora stereo revelation, as I call it, which is an application of SHI, it basically starts by having the original stereo recording going straight to the speakers. So the original stereo recording goes straight to the speakers, and then the holographic imaging process is basically an addition and subtraction of vectors to the direct signal going to the uh to the speaker. So very important for this SHI, it's not or for SSR basically for the stereo uh uh representation, it's not an insert, it's not something you put in between. And that I found out that was kind of the key ingredient in doing this, and that's why people that listen to it, so this is incredibly realistic. And again, it does not uh uh bastardize the recording from a presentation point of view in the sense that everything stays nicely in the same place, but all of a sudden it's in a three-day 3D presentation, and the speakers completely disappear, and the sound stage can be easily much larger than the speaker fields.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

Okay, question number six. When you record in multi-channel and you have multiple microphones per instrument or multiple microphones per vocalist, what determines what survives in the final mixing process? How do you select from those many microphones to create the final immersive mix, I'll repeat?

SPEAKER_00 50:29

So usually you kind of uh record in layers. So, for example, for a piano, like um the Patricia Barber piano is probably one of the best uh examples. So that piano, that piano has nine microphones. So you have inside, then at the border of the of the uh resonance, then further away, and sometimes even at the um maybe some PZMs on the floor or at the at the wall of the um of her respective room, so that when you create the 3D image, you actually really have the sounds coming from the front of the piano to the back of the room. So you have a real 3D development. So uh of course, some of the microphones, probably the ones on the wall, will not make it to the stereo mix, but they will certainly make it into an immersive mix. And and so, so I mean, with with experience, you kind of know how to layer it. And sometimes you, I mean, very often when we record, of course, we record in a stereo surrounding, but we know what we need in order to have it for immersive. And then again, depending on the music, depending on the surroundings, uh, it it could be you know that 5.1 is really a format that this music speaks in, and not everything needs to be 7.1, 7.1.4, 5.1, anything. So it's it's very, very composition and and sometimes also group dependent. For example, we have we have tried to uh I think turn um what was modern cool, I think, into a 3D uh into a 3D experience. Did not work. It works in 5.1. I mean it won the Grammy in 5.1, the surround Grammy. So uh that was its its original, that was its format. Of course, it works in stereo. Uh we've found with her so far that 5.1 for her, 5.1 is the format. It it it it really comes out that way, and sometimes um for Jane Ara Blue, 5.4 is the format. I mean, she uh she has this uh because she writes in three-dimensional, she composes for three-dimensional sound, and that's very often what it needs to be. So that's I think the easiest way I can explain how how how you reduce the microphones. I mean, there's certainly microphones that will not make it to the stereo mix because they're not needed, but they need to be there in order to give you the 3D image later for a 3D recording.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

Just out of curiosity, with certain artists, do you do you play for them a couple of different mixes, or is that just a total morass?

SPEAKER_00 52:59

No, usually we I mean we found out what what they want, or they usually come to us and then we talk about the concept of the recording, and it'll turn out to be this or that. We had one case actually where we thought we were going uh to 714 and uh at Skywalker uh Jim mixed the first day in 714, and it just it it wasn't at we threw the height away, and it is a it's a very good 7.17.1 recording, but it it didn't work in 0.4 because the studio it was recorded had very low ceilings, and the height microphones just you got claustrophobia because the height microphones were too close to the ceiling, obviously, and then uh it just it just wouldn't work. But at 7.1 it it opened up and it was very nice. So sometimes uh architecture will tell you, and sometimes uh but most most of the times music tells you, and then we kind of make the decision what what format that is. And I mean, usually the people we we work with they trust us and they'll know what the decision will be a good one.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Erin, when you record for Yarlung, how many microphones do you typically use?

SPEAKER_01 54:09

And Yarlung is quite a minimalistic uh setup, it's everything is uh is done in in real time, so we do not really have people in uh in sound booth or so. It's it's always done on stage in uh concert halls. And we uh we we try to keep the the number of microphones as small as possible. We we always uh in most of the cases we use an uh just an uh AKG C24 to capture the the performers, and then we have uh in in the mid-rear of the hole we have our rear uh microphones to pick up the whole sound, and then uh sometimes we have uh some uh microphones off the side to on the front in the front of the house basically to get more of this of the stage acoustics, and then in uh in in some cases we uh we need to have uh spot mics to get uh um to to get artists better into the into the mix. But the mix basically happens on stage, everything goes to the to the holographic imaging processor basically, and it's done on stage uh mainly with microphone settings. Uh so with the placements and also this placement of uh of the musicians. Um then there are some adjustment uh possibilities that you can analog settings on the holographic imaging processor that can basically uh get you uh better uh uh addition of the whole or get a better spread of the musicians. So we basically do that. But everything is basically done. Uh the the our way of recording is also that the artists should basically be able to play their piece in one tick. So we we basically do not uh edit. Uh so it's it's a very different way of set uh setting up, but it's it's very critical on how you do the setup uh before we do the recording. Because once you do that, you're kind of uh uh you're kind of fixed into the into the project. Um we then can we record everything in uh in on analog to analog tape in uh in DSD and in uh PCM. So basically, during the setup, we will always go to a monitor room that we set up that gives you the possibility to hear the whole sound stage to see if what we're doing is uh is correct before we actually start uh the actual recording.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Question number seven: if a two-channel purist like me wants to experiment with multi-channel without abandoning the current system, what's the easiest way to graft multi-channel onto an existing two-channel system, Andy?

SPEAKER_05 57:01

Well, I was I was there 25 years ago. I I made a trip to do a cover story for fanfare um on the occasion of their first release, their uh their new version of the 1812 overture with Eric Kunzel, and I sat down in uh Mike Bishop's listening room and I was blown away. So I came back to my Watt Puppies and said, What can I do? Well, I knew I couldn't afford three more Watt Puppies. So what I did initially was to uh to find three speakers that were at least similar in character uh to the Watt Puppies, to Wilson speakers, to get a start to get my feet wet to see if this was for me. And the answer at that time were dyne audio speakers. I did that and I got a uh a reasonable um, it was a class A, I think, um, multi-channel receiver and a uh and a five-channel amplifier. Switching back and forth um resulted, you know, required a lot of wire switching. Well, as I became increasingly committed, um, the thing that I committed to was upgrading those additional speakers, and I think it's very important as much as possible to get the same brand of speaker um going around. So I I I started with uh with an add-on, which which made sure that I didn't compromise my stereo setup, but gave me a chance to see the incredible benefits that occur in a very cost-effective way by adding those additional channels.

SPEAKER_03 58:29

Danny, do you think you'll ever try actual multi-channel or are you just happy with uh Aryan system?

SPEAKER_02 58:36

You know, good question. I mean, I think um I think that at some point I will probably get myself one of the uh Dolby Atmos sound bars uh to play with. Uh, I think there's probably a lot of potential in those, uh, and they just keep getting better and better and more convincing. Um I mean for for you know pure listening, uh music listening, that is, um to me, Arian's system is just as simple as it needs to be with the best possible results.

SPEAKER_05 59:12

I would say I would have to add that the biggest disappointment at Axbona was Focal's um soundbar that allegedly uh reproduced Atmos. I think it's okay if you have a television and you uh and you want to get some uh sense of spaciousness, but for critical music listening, no way.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

Question number eight: Is there any way to convert from my pure analog system to a multi-channel system and stay completely in the analog domain? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_01 59:46

No, yeah, no other other than SHI, I don't think there is any uh discrete uh multi-channel system that uh can uh avoid uh uh the digital domain now.

SPEAKER_05 59:58

And I don't think you want to because you know some sort of room correction is going to be necessary, balancing of channels, that that equalization, that sort of thing. You're not getting your money's worth if you don't put it in the digital domain.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Your playback file will be most likely digital. I mean it's like you you will have a D2A conversion at some point. I mean, you can try to optimize your room if you have the perfect setup and if you have the perfect speakers, and if you can analogly uh uh tune them, but that that's gonna be then analog room correction, but your your playback file will be most likely an digital file. So there is there is the digital right there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Yeah, we don't want we don't have a multi-channel uh analog uh delivery method, so it's it's gonna be digital uh unless you have a two-inch uh 16 or 8-track machine, but that's that's gonna be difficult too, yeah. Yeah, but good luck finding an uh multi-channel recording on the tape like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

Question nine. Multi-channel advocates sometimes suggest, well, you don't need your expensive uh front speakers, you can get less expensive five or seven cheaper speakers, but as a two-channel purist, the idea of listening to a larger number of uh suspension of belief inferior speakers is anathema to me. Andy, your view is that you should take the same care with the multi-channels, with each of the multi-channels as you do with each of your two channels. Uh, but that gets people like me into spending a ton of money to to add three or to add uh three or five of my existing super expensive two-channel speakers. So what do we do? There's just no getting if we want to stay state-of-the-art with multi-channel and copy and paste the quality of our two-channel to multi-channel, we have no choice but to buy some more expensive speakers.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:52

Well, um, maybe uh expensive speakers, but not more expensive. The whole idea is that you don't throw out the uh the baby with the bathwater. You do not compromise your main front and right speakers. But I'm not going to put S3s uh on the ceiling. You know, the A1s serve the purpose uh put M7s on the ceiling. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

If I try it out. Right, but we but um if somebody has two S7s, uh you want them to have do you want them to have another S7 in the middle and and ideally two S7s in the back, no? Or the ones in the back can be high?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

The ones in the the ones in the back can be far more modest. Again, put your ear to one of those speakers when it's playing a uh multi-channel recording, and uh the there's very often just a faint echo of of sound there, and certainly for the height speakers, that's the case. So uh as I said, three S3s, two S1s behind, a subwoofer, and four A1s above. And I don't think I need any more any more than that. The amplification, I think, is even more even more uh flexible. So yes, I have title amplifiers, um, you know, uh 85,000 list price for a pair. For the two front channels, I have three pass XA60.8s for the center and the two surrounds, you know, a fifth of the price. And then for those four height channels, I use a parasound multi-channel amplifier.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

Okay, and you're and you're suggesting that if somebody has uh if somebody's two-channel system is purest horns and single-ended triode, they can still use perhaps solid state for the high speakers.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:30

Well, I haven't tried that, and I that does sound like a recipe for uh for for trouble, but I don't think that kind of person is going is going to try the multi-channel. I'm I'm not attempting to convince a person like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:42

Okay. Any other practical suggestions for a two-channel person um uh converting to multi-channel adding to their system to have multi-channel?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:51

I I would um strongly consider not getting a uh cinema type center channel, just because um it's it's nice to have three identical speakers in terms of the heights of the driver when you're trying to make a seamless uh front to the stage. So it's tempting, you know, both for when you watch movies and when you die, to be able to sell it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Um just get buried in it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:14

That's just get buried in it, is that right? That that may be the direction I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Me too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, actually when I'm I mean I'm uh listening to discrete 5.1, which I do uh on a regular basis just to uh to check out what what I'm doing in my uh SHI uh setup. But I'm uh for that I'm actually using um identical electrostats in the back. I I use my uh my own full-range electrostats and I use exactly the same setup uh at all uh at all four channels. The center channel is uh still a phantom that I uh put there with SHI, which works extremely well, gives the say exactly the same characteristic as the other speakers. But to and I I do it sometimes, I uh it it's it's in the way if I set it up, so I normally take it away again. But um if I do uh discrete 5.1 to really see what uh to double check what I'm doing, basically, I uh prefer to use exactly the same speakers. But I I agree, I think for the rear, especially if it's not something that is uh circling around you or so, but uh just uh the ambient of the hole and that kind of stuff, you do not need the same performance of your rear speakers as you uh as you have in the front.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Okay, on to the important part, the music. Music segment. Please, if anybody has suggestions for their favorite multi-channel recordings, now is the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

So I I purposely didn't bring anything specific. Uh I will say that as of late, I've been listening to the Deep Purple Live in Japan Steve Wilson remix, which is absolutely astounding. Uh, I was never a particularly big fan of the original release of this album, but I'm a huge fan of Steve Wilson and the work he does, and uh it's it's quite spectacular.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:14

There were a bunch of recordings that were made 40 years ago that were sort of waiting, was waiting for this experience, and it's fascinating to see them having proceeded through SACD and now to uh to full immersive. Yeah, good examples are uh Roxy Music Avalon, um Dark Side of the Moon, as you might expect, and um Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots. I've been able to uh compare the 5.1 SACD to the uh immersive Blu-ray for these recordings, and you can just see the benefits in terms of adding those high channels to the clarity of some very uh complex music at ground level.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Oh Ricky, what are some uh what are some recordings of your of which you're most proud?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Well, I mean, there there would be the the Patricia Barbers, uh there would be the Click and Modern Cool, which are 5.1 uh and uh even her higher. Then we've got some uh Grammy Women Jane Ara Bloom, uh, which is the uh early Americans. Then we have in 3D, real 3D, we have uh picturing the invisible. That is actually a COVID recording that um was done in spaces smaller than this, but then mixed at Skywalker and actually got an immersive Grammy nomination, as it sounds like, as it's in space. Um, then we have what I'm really proud of, and I think this is coming out in 3D uh for this for this season, is a Donald Vega recording that got a Love and Grammy um uh nomination, but now it's coming out in 514. And that's where you actually really want the good speakers in the back as well, because the whole percussion line is actually behind you. So there's a trio's in front of you, the percussion isn't behind you, and then then all of a sudden it's in a really big room. So I I'm I'm with Andrew. Like you you uh you want to have you want to have uh ideally five of the same characteristics um in in the plane, and because of our architectural and maybe static reasons, you you need uh smaller ones uh up on the ceiling. Very often in the ceiling, I mean in the ceiling speakers is not that much movement. Um, but uh yeah, another one I'm really proud of is a couple of Franco Ambrosettis that are very, very nice in 7-1 and 714, and also uh well our foray into uh orchestral recording in Norway we did with the Stamanger Symphony Orchestra, we did a uh Gisler Querdok recording in 714 that was recorded basically in the traditional in the traditional orchestra seating, but we still got it all around you and so I mean it's it's it's fun. It's I I think it's a it's a great it's a great format to present music because you have so much more possibilities to to place instruments and to actually make the music uh I what was it that what I think you said that about the the purple? I mean you can show much more complex music because you have more space to present it. So I'm I'm I'm a bit this is a big and a great uh addition to music, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:25

Any other multi-channel suggestions?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

I have some uh some stuff. Please uh first uh talking about SHI basically, because that's my main uh thing for uh for 3D audio. Uh there actually is brought up two albums that we recorded with Jarlung that are good examples where we use the SHI on stage, which is uh Lifeline, uh, which is an uh uh basically three singers uh on on stage. You can record everything uh on stage and with a small audience, and that gives you a very nice uh um example of the uh the holographic uh imaging that we did on stage. Another one that's killer. Yeah, this is a very interesting one, also, because it's partly um it's classical music and it's partly uh our synthesizers and everything in it, and we did all that on stage, so it was acoustically mixed basically, and then recorded in uh in SHI. That one is very interesting as well. Yeah, and the third thing that I have, and I this is just an example. This is uh Stephen Wilson's uh The Raven Who Refused to Sing. That's one of Stephen Wilson's uh uh uh solo albums. Um Danny already mentioned it a little bit. Is that what Stephen Wilson does in uh in multi-channel mixing uh is the thing I I really uh really like, and then all his uh recordings are extremely old. So this is an example of his work with stuff that he does with uh Porcupine Tree and uh and his solo projects, but also as a side project with Nolan and everything, and then all of course, of course, the the multi-channel mixes he's done for uh for other older albums and so is something that is definitely worth uh listening to in uh in multi-channel. It's a stereo very good as well, but in multi-channel, definitely something that I could uh could recommend.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

Thank you for those suggestions. Any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:34

Oh, I I'm I was reading the comments, and they're very often the wife that that limits the uh speakers in in the house. Um as a wife and in in the house of speakers, um well, you need speakers, you know, you you need speakers, and um it's it's very convenient also to always put the wife up front, and sometimes the wife doesn't even know. Get your own room and put up a really nice system in it, because then you will also be away. And she has a kitchen. And and also, no, I mean this is I I I've heard that too often too. It's it's it's not it's not usually the wife, especially if you get then your own room. So no, no, no, don't put it on the wife.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

Fair enough. Any other thoughts? Alrighty. Well, this has been great. Thank you very much. Peace, love, and hair, grease. Our next High Five Five episode will be May 13. I'm now on the new schedule of the second Wednesday and the fourth Wednesday of every month. So uh I will see you again on May 13. Thanks, everybody. Oh, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:39

Bye bye. Bye.