Stream of Consciousness #58 - Nelson Schrock - Kingston Creamery

In this episode, I sit down with Nelson Schrock, General Manager of Kingston Creamery in Cambria, Wisconsin. Nelson brings a quiet, grounded presence as he talks about the craft of cheesemaking, the values that guide their work, and what it means to run a small, tradition‑driven creamery in the heart of dairy country.

It’s a conversation about community, heritage, and the kind of steady leadership that doesn’t need attention to make an impact. If you love Wisconsin stories and the people who keep its traditions alive, this one will stay with you.

Handcrafted Amish Cheese from Wisconsin | Kingston Creamery

http://www.youtube.com/@DanBackes-Omaha

https://open.spotify.com/show/2ZHWgVJf5Dadq6c1jHFrNC?si=98dd593acb8d4094

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

All right, everyone, we are live with Screen of Consciousness with Dan. And today we've got a really special guest from the heart of Wisconsin Dairy Country. Kingston Creamery out in Cambria has been on an absolute hair lately, picking up major awards for their blue cheeses at ACS, the Wisconsin State Fair, and the World Dairy Expo. And the guy helping steer that ship is with us today, Nelson Crock, General Manager at Kingston Creamery. Welcome to the show. How are you doing today, Nelson?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I am doing great. Thank you for the invitation and the opportunity to uh be present here today.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, absolutely. The honor is all mine. As we touched on offline, the only thing that could be better is if we were actually together sharing some kingston creamery. But the technology hasn't quite advanced to that yet, so that's okay. But uh yes, before we even talk cheese or into Kingston, I'd just love to hear kind of about the world you grew up in, uh you know, your community, uh the work and the values that shaped you as a kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

No. So I grew up in the um, I'm a member of the Kingston Old Order Amish community. Um we are located in south central Wisconsin, uh between two major cities, Portage and Wapon, Wisconsin, ironically considered in the middle of nowhere, on a beautiful rolling hills area. Um I grew up on a small dairy farm of um approximately twenty-five cows. We are a family of uh 15 children, and um my daily workload had consisted of um hand milking these dairy cows and then uh shipping the milk in ten gallon stainless steel milk cans to a local dairy. And um dairy farming and then now cheese handling has uh been in my entire life, which has been so interesting and so rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Well you've probably got some uh some biceps on you hauling those Melktins, geez. Um man, that's wild. Uh so do you think that really helped with your work ethic as you know, kind of now that you look back as an adult that you know having that that discipline and you know, I need to milk the cows every day, I need to deliver the milk every day. So just kind of touch on that work ethic because it really shows through.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I will. And um I I love I actually love this part of the um you know kind of where this is going because we're just gonna expand on it a little bit. And so basically these dairy farms that um are hand milking these cows, you've got um, you know, on a basic average, 10 children per family, you've got um the parents getting their children out of bed at this um you know dark hour in the morning called 4 30 a.m. And basically what everybody's doing is um heading out to the dairy barn and um getting the cows you know roused out of their beds, into the stalls, feeding animals, bringing the horses in, uh the calves, the pigs, the chicken coop, and just uh getting the whole operation going by feeding animals, you know, from these crops that are stored, especially in the winter, which is in our time frame right now. Or in the summer, we're bringing them off pasture and bringing them into our dairy barn. And so the work ethic consisted of the basic need to nourish and be a good steward of the animals that are on these farms, they are not considered um capitalistic elements, they are truly a member of the family. So the work ethic came from a basic need in your herding singular act that was needed in that one hour that uh expressed itself morning and night, and thus every farmer goes out into life every day going, What can I sustain? versus um you know, so many times I'm afraid people go, um, I have a pest in my crops, what can I kill? In my you know, in our lifetime, we're about what can we sustain? And so that's through again, I'm gonna go back to the work ethic, but it's through the um generation of uh I'm sorry, the generous act of um sustaining, preserving, and sometimes regenerating uh new properties that we purchase. So the work ethic truly comes from a basic need. There's an animal to feed, there's uh a herd to um basically sustain, there's um crops or land or something to nourish, and so that's where the nerd the work ethic comes in is uh basic needs that surround us on the dairy farm all day long. And those translate to the basic needs in a dairy plant that are so interconnected with the farm, and uh vertically, you know, we're able to bring this good cheese, um, which I hope to talk about in a minute.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Oh, absolutely. That was so wonderfully put because I've I've met with several not only other creameries but other chefs as well on like ranches or things like that. And when you treat the animal and in your case as a member of the family, the end product is going to taste 1,000 percent better than treating the male as a commodity. So I just think that was wonderfully put and taste that as a f product. So I really love that answer very much. So obviously that needs your passion today and the work you're known for. But I do just want to talk about and you can touch on it a little bit. Just food in general. Were there any particular addictions or traditions that really shaped you as a kid? Like we're having this for dinner, like let's go, I'm ready, I'm I'm pumped.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

That's a very good, um, very good approach, thank you. So when it came to food, the experience I had in growing up was that we're gonna grow what we eat, and we're going to eat what we grow. And so our diet consisted, you know, seasonally from you know the food that was preserved for the winter months coming out of our basement in um mason jars, or in the summer, it was food coming in from our garden, our produce patch, our apple orchard, and so forth. And then um one of the um what I consider one of the most beneficial elements of a farm is not only do you get to interact with these resources, and namely those are the soil, the air, the the animals, all of them bring forth new life or assist in bringing forth new life. And with these animals, one of their last acts was to sacrifice and become food for our family. So we enjoyed chicken, pork, beef, and more because of the sacrifice these animals made for um the family. And it's not considered um an act of vice, it's a c it's considered an act of virtue, which has to be explained because that can be misconstrued in today's world in many ways, but that is how truly life was on the farm, and that's how we came as we grew up. So that came in the form of um in the summertime, you know, grilling outdoors as a family. Or it came, you know, as um enjoying fresh new greens from our garden. Or in the winter, many, man, many, many cases, uh mom was in the kitchen making, you know, nourishing broth and soup and so forth. And then um that's how you know that's how we grew up is that kind of diet, which is a a real basic but very wholesome and nutritious element of our food.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah, that's really neat to hear because I've my wife and I have been dabbling in gardening. We are not particularly very good yet, but there is something about growing fresh dills, growing fresh cucumbers, growing fresh tomatoes, and eating them, and they just taste one a million times better than anything you can get at you know, at the store. You know, it's the fruit of your labor. I might need to get some tips from you. Uh well this year, but uh, but no, I just love that because you eat a cherry tomato out of your garden right off the vine, and it just hits you just completely different than anything you can get at a store. So I love that.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So I have a question. There's a there's an element to that that I'd love to expand upon, and that has to do with the um so there's many discussions going on in any legislature government that talks about how do we control animal waste in the form of um manure and so forth. So I go back to our method of dairy farming and the regenerative practices include and also very heavily include the benefit of animal waste, which is a misnomer. It truly is a soil. However, in our dairy farms, this what we call nutrient streams coming from the animal is turned into a compost, what we call a loafing shed, where this type of organic waste is uh introduced back into those nutrient streams. And in the springtime, prior to um soil um there's a word I want, sorry, um soil handling, um, in the winter time prior to soil handling, what we go through is we are taking this compost material and putting it out, loading it out into our fields and working it into the soil through a process, but this compost material comes to the soil earthworm friendly, not something that is um you know unmatching in pH or etc. It becomes it comes to the soil earthworm friendly. So when you're bringing this compost material to the soil, you're enhancing the nutrients that are already are there. You're also enhancing the um take up, the crop take up of uh mineral or other nutrient uptake, which is why the end product of a tomato or more are going to be esteemed so much higher in value than uh something that was shipped you know from 2,000 miles away. So that's a very, very important part of gardening that uh takes away many of these so-called secrets and green thumbs is the basic um you know soil enhancements through nutrient values like um we're talking about coming off our farms.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Thank you. Yeah, that was great. And I think I don't know why this came into my head actually, but you're just talking about you know using the resources we have. And I I just remember watching like documentaries of you know tribes in Africa. They're literally using um cow manure for people, like just using everything you possibly can in the most efficient way possible. So that's that's that's that's amazing. I love it so much. And so yeah, so hearing about kind of the food interventions you grew up with, it's really kind of helping understand the way you approach your work today. So I want to dift into the Kingston creamery itself if you can just give a brief to mid-brief uh history of how it kind of came about and kind of where it is right now.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Thank you so much. So Kingston Community was um established in the year of 1976. The reason the Amish chose to populate this particular area was the um available dairy milk markets for small herds that wanted to ship milk in milk cans. In a matter of uh six years, these particular markets had all transferred to uh the more modern bulk tank method, and the Amish community said we do not want to follow the mantra of get big or get out. We truly want to preserve and sustain our family farm through agricultural occupations, so let's embrace the idea of processing our own milk into cheese. And the other thing that became clear as we now study history was when the pupil was ready, the teacher came. So, in that same time frame, we had a non-Amish person approach our community and said, Um, I really want to make cheese at a dairy plant that I own locally. Would you guys provide the milk and the labor? And I'll, you know, I'll be the the business part of this. So this non-Amish knew how to make blue cheese, and the Amish had the milk supply and the labor. So, in due time the Amish learned how to make blue cheese, which was considered a high-end specialty cheese in the early 1980s. And so the first generation of our cheesemakers in our community taught were taught the method of making cheese, and then in our case they learned the art and the skill and the science of making blue cheese. And um also ironically, one of the um reasons we continue to make blue cheese is it is difficult to expand out and make other kinds of cheese that are not using ingredients that are equal to blue cheese. Namely, one of those is the um panicelium roqueforti strain of mold that we're adding um onto cheese making. So we're we're adding mold, which is a protein, and um it is a um enhancement for um what I would call the um um breaking down of the food in human beings' uh stomachs. So it basically is a benefit, it's a beneficial protein that allows um good nutrition. But for cheese making, we have the mold, we have the blue cheese, and um in due time we were hitting markets on a national basis, and um that allows us to where we are today. And uh the very act of cheese making, we can now quote multi-generational, we can quote the art, the skill, and the science. And blending those three elements together equals the um the cheese that we're putting out in our coolers today and then putting out in our packages. Um it's the you know, the final sum of all the parts is having the ability to talk to people and have them taste um wonderful, very high quality, very creamy, good mouthfeel, long finish, uh kind of blue cheese that we're talking about today. So that's how we got into blue cheese.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

That's great. You answered my next question already. Um because I feel like we again we talked about this a little offline. But blue cheese can be very um polarizing for some people. I personally love it and think it's delicious. Um blue cheese, gorgonzilla, all of that. So, why do you think people misunderstand um blue cheese? And yeah, so that's really my question. Why do you think it's so it's it's just a polarizing cheese, in my opinion?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

So in the world of blue cheese, and as people were growing up, there are medicinal notes and also ketone flavors that can be challenging for that first-time consumer that was never introduced to any kind of flavorful cheese. It's almost equal to the fact that um when you grab an apple off an apple tree that's in you know the backwoods 40 acres area, you have such a nutrient-dense apple compared to something you buy buy out of the grocery store at times that um you find it daunting to eat the apple from the backwoods, however, you have much more nutrition. So I go back to blue cheese in general. Um it it has been uh talked about in in many uh aromatics and then also a certain touch and feel, and so it was limiting to an audience of adults, namely fifty-five years or older, used primarily in salads or maybe in uh meat products, and still is so used today. What Kingston has done though is they went back to the recipe and they said, Let's tone it down. Let's bring some honor back to the blue cheese in the deli, and um let's revive this forgotten deli cheese because there are so many wonderful things that you can do with blue cheese in charcuterie, in pairing, and in just basic snacking, that it's amazing. So what we've done as organization is we've we've toned it down and we've said let's not hit it so hard in the face. Let's have the young moms bring this cheese into their kitchens. Let's let's introduce this to the college age people. Let's invite them out to charcuterize or to snack or to pear. And this is happening. This is amazing. This cheese that we are producing today is very approachable. We still ask people, if they're a certified blue cheese hater, to um consider taking one sample, followed up with sample number two, just to really give it an honest try. And we have been very successful in turning these blue cheese haters into Kingston blue cheese lovers because of the uh toned-down approach. You still have the blue cheese flavor, you still have the ketones, you have a modest element of the medicinal, but now you've got a complete flavor party going on that um allows for a general snacking with uh a chilled red grape and equal parts of blue cheese, is taking snacking to an absolutely new level. Or if you're doing charcuterie, you grab your favorite cracker, you're taking a chunk of the you know, any any one of our blue cheeses, smoothering this in a dab of honey or mild hot honey, you've now just made an amazing um entree or appetizer benefit to a main meal. So these are you know, these are amazing. And now we're introducing it to a whole new population group that um is just embracing it. It's a very exciting.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Well, I'm getting so hungry right now. Um, it reminds me of have you seen uh uh oh what the movie Ratatouille? Nelson?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Oh, sorry. Did you see the movie Ratatouille?

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Oh, I have not seen it, no.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Oh, you need to oh man. It just reminded me of a scene from that. But uh just he was like he took this grape and this cheese, and it literally brought me back to that scene in the movie when you were talking about pairing. Uh but um well no, that was so well put, and everyone really does need to just explore not just blue cheese, but just different foods. Don't be scared of trying Indian food or uh maybe North African food or Middle Eastern food. Um just give it a chance. So what I really want to talk about now is I want to kind of strip it back to the basic um without giving away anything proprietary. I don't want to share all your company secrets, but uh could you just walk us through the basic process of how to make a blue cheese?

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I'd love to do that. The process of taking a fluid milk that has um approximately 87% of liquid and 14 to 15 percent of solids is um is very unique and um I always tell people that everybody can make cheese, but not everybody can make delicious high quality cheese. So the first basic act of taking this milk that is delivered to our creamery from our dairy farms is to uh give it heat. And for us we are very conscientious of taking every step we can to minimize a food safety risk. So we heat the milk past the temperature that it was originally in when it came from the cow. So we take the milk, we heat it up, and then we cool it back down to the basic temperature of a cow, which is approximately ninety degrees Fahrenheit. This cheese is this milk, excuse me, this milk is then put into a um a large tank called a vat. And um once this milk has reached the level of where we can now stir that milk, we add our culture starter. This starter now becomes active and it takes and it attaches itself to the proteins and the butterfats and then preserving the mineral content that originally came from the milk. As this culture starts attaching itself to these solids, you start having an impact on how those will eventually break down and become flavor or body or texture. And as this vat continues to fill, these cultures are working at a rapid pace. The amount of energy that is being uh introduced in that short period of time is um amazing. If you would put it under a microscope, you just have these blinding flashes of activity going on. As the vat fills to a full level, agitation is then stopped, and this complete vat of milk is allowed to gel or set. In cheesemaker's terms, we would call it the vat is setting. This can this um this full vat of milk and cultures is now allowed to set for a while, and then the cheesemaker is taking his um knives or basic what we call curd knives, and he's cutting the curd. The curd goes through a healing process. Now you have curds and whey. So curds and whey are agitated now again, allowed to a specific and designed firmness, moisture content, pH level that are all um considered proprietary information for the cheesemaker that is making cheese for that specific kind. And as this curd and whey reaches the certain chemical or um microbiological requirements, this is then put over onto a cheese form that allows the whey to drain, and the curd begins to knit and making the style of cheese you're making. For us, it's blue cheese, a semi-soft cheese retaining a higher level of moisture. So we do not we are not looking for a high level of knit. We are looking for a medium level of knit where this cheese is now going through a um knitting process and preparing itself to go into the next phase, which is um salt brine. Our cheese goes through a salt brine for a a um uh specific amount of time. The cheese is then removed from the salt brine. We are then in a next step. We are piercing the side of the cheese, allowing oxygen to get inside, and start um um what we call an oxygenation process, starting to give that mold the final uh on its final journey is to give it oxygen. That mold will continue to develop for a eight to twelve week period of time, which is the mold um expressing itself in flavor and in uh view and in body and texture. This cheese is then converted into the final package. It may be uh sold as a wheel, maybe sold as a wedge, or it may be sold as a crumble. And uh that's the basic steps of uh making cheese.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

That was just perfect. It almost sounds like you're a professional, Nelson. Almost. Well, thank you so much. Um so no, so for everyone out there, when you're eating cheese, remember all of those steps. You're not simply you know going to the store and buying a block of cheese. These are professional, uh super talented, attention to detailed people that are you know delivering you that end product. So yeah, that was that was pretty awesome. And are you ready to have some fun? Because this is my most fun segment that we do.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah, I am absolutely ready to do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

All right. So it's the Mount Rush More of cheese. Just your four personal favorite types of cheese, not necessarily like the best or the most famous, just the ones that you love or the ones that mean something to you. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I want you to go first, please.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Okay, well um well, I had the pleasure of speaking to Joey Whitmer of Whitmer's Cheese Cellers. I'm sure you're probably familiar with them.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

I am, yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Um my my favorite cheese of all time is brick cheese. Just a mild brick cheese. You can put it on a deli sandwich, you can get the aged and pair it you know on a charcuterie board. I just love brick cheese. That's my number one.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

That is amazing. My number one cheese. My number one cheese that I love to just hold in my hand, look at it, and just take it in with all of my senses is a whole milk, creamy Munster. Not necessarily so much loyal to who makes it, but it has to be Munster coming from a ho a cow that is producing whole milk, not skimmed, not fortified, but it's whole milk going into this cheese called Munster.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Nelson, you're killing me. That was my number two.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

The So is when when I'm at the store when I'm at the store, how do I know that it's you know that that whole not skimmed cow thing if I'm not getting like a specialty monster? How do I know that? Is there a way?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

There's uh there's a modest trick that's going to get you close, and that is if you touch and feel that cheese. And if you're touching that cheese and it's not yielding, that means they removed a portion of the fat and made it a higher protein cheese that is going to express itself like a Snickers candy bar. Whereas if you have the whole milk and you have the cream, you're gonna be able to indent and and give pressure. It's gonna, you know, it's gonna give, and you're gonna have a more softer cheese. And the second thing is the appearance. If you're able to see the cheese, you're gonna see that um there's more fat. You're just gonna know. Or you're you're gonna see, oh, there's fat missing here. And one of them is more of a like uh, you know, think about a liner board or a piece of cardboard, you know, it's just gonna have it's you know, it's express itself like that as a high protein cheese. Not calling it bad, but if it has more fat, you're going to have more of a um a buttery look in that white part of that cheese, and is truly truly amazing. Well, then on grilled cheese paired with your favorite soup, you are going to brand new heights.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Yep. Well, since you stole my number two, I'll give you the chance to do your number two now.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

My number two is for me to break open a wheel of breezy blue from Kingston. It is a kind of cheese that has absolutely no competition anywhere. And this cheese is put onto a lemon wafer. My favorite brand is the uh quadratini lemon wafer, and it has become the most preferred dessert to any meal that I may have.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

I might have to try that. That sounds really good. Oh my gosh. Alright, well, my number three. I actually was just introduced to it the other day. Uh because like I said, I was talking to someone at Car Valley and uh they sent us some cheese, and I was eating their Fontina, and I just made it in a simple like pasta bake. But that cheese melted so beautifully, it was so flavorful but not overpowering. And so, yeah, Fontina just recently got onto my Mount Rushmore this week.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

That is amazing. That is an experience that I love to have. I've not been introduced to a Fontina that I enjoyed in uh I will have to seek that particular cheese from Car Valley. I know the company very well. That would be it was very tasty. So my number three, which is in the last ten months, my number three cheese is a camembert that is produced from the Old Order Amish community in um Lancasy, Pennsylvania. There's a young man with his family owning a small little dairy plant called Clover Valley Creamery. They are producing camember made from cow's milk, and then a second one made from sheep's milk. This cheese, if you take this cheese and put it onto a your favorite cracker and drizzle with honey or even hot honey, this cheese has taken charcuterie and snacking to a brand new height. That is my definite favorite for number three.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

I can appreciate that. And so I'm going to uh plug you since I have to choose a Kingston cheese on here. And honest to God, I've had bread cheese before, but I really want to try the uh I don't even know if I can pronounce the the the juice. Yes, it's pronounced Ustolapo. Oh sorry, Ustolapo. But I was doing some research on it and it sounds amazing. I want some so bad. Oh, it's got that because it's oh is a try cubing it.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

It is amazing. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

I'm so hungry, Nelson.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

So my number four cheese is the aged cheddar from Woodward's Cheese Cellars, eight-year-old cheddar, which is absolutely amazing. From a flavor pattern, you've got the ultimate combination of sweetness, a little bit of salt, although it's low. Then you have the beautiful cheddar, long cheddar finish that is combined with a natural, slight bitter flavor that uh continues to linger and just provide this party of flavors. And it's the result of a family that cares about their soil health, the animal health, and then their passion of cheese making, which which is producing this final product. It also expresses the talent of a cheesemaker as he continues to monitor the aging of his cheese that uh continues to enhance that beautiful flavor balance across that flavor board that is so important as you age out cheese. And it's just put this cheese on a favorite cracker, and then a little bit of um maybe a meat, a summer sausage or a salami. Beautiful pairing. And then for me, while I don't do alcohol, I do fruit juices, apple juice, um, grape juice, and so forth. What a beautiful snack on a warm summer after um summer day afternoon. It's just so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

I mean, yeah, you can't go wrong with an aged cheddar. I actually have, I don't think, an eight-year in the fridge right now, but I do think I have at least a four four-year-old aged cheddar there. But uh, so before I sign off, because like I said, I've got to talk to Marika here for four minutes, I want to give you the floor for the last couple minutes to just tell people where they can buy your cheese and how they can support you because you guys are just awesome, and I want everyone in the state of Wisconsin, everyone in the country, everyone in the world to taste your cheese.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

That's amazing, thank you. So, Kingston Creamery line of cheese can be purchased obviously on site at our little store. It can be purchased through web orders that um exists at uh kingstoncoop.org. The line of cheeses can also be purchased at um um outpost co-op stores, uh Willie's Street co-op stores in Madison, or Fromogenation, a um little cheese store on the square, but doing dynamic um dynamic cheeses.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

We've been there before, that place is sweet.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

It's amazing, and then uh the Sendix grocery stores, along with the Metcalf stores that are in the state of Wisconsin. And then uh there's a national presence across the US in different pockets. So we're having um Sprouts Farmers Markets and um uh many of the Albertson banners, like the Safeways and Um the United Albertson stores and things like that. So those are some real prominent uh places where our products can be purchased at.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Well, you heard it from the horses.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Go ahead. The the most fresh cheese experience that you will uh you know experience yourself is if you buy directly from our store through web orders or through an on-site visit. It's gonna be your most fresh cheese experience. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Oh, yeah, you heard it from the horses, or should I say the cow's mouth. Uh you did, yeah. But no, Nelson, I thank you so much for joining me today. It's been it's been really such a joy just hearing about your story, the traditions behind Kingston Creamery, how much cheese means to you because it means so much to me, and what you're doing out there in Cambria, just congratulations to you and everyone at Kingston on the awards and recognition you've earned. It's it's just clear how much care and craftsmanship goes into every wheel, every brick, every wedge, every crumble. Yeah, so for the listeners out there, Steve Nelson's awards, check out either those retailers or order directly online, and I'll post everything in the description. For people in Wisconsin and beyond, thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.