Hilary Duff: This Is What Dreams Are Made Of!

This week, we're talking about Disney's dream girl, Hillary Duff! We dive into some 2000s tea, mama Susan, and how by being just good enough, she became the blueprint for the Disney girlies we know and love today.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

La la la la la la la la la la la la period is a different person.

SPEAKER_06 0:05

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Yeah yeah yeah she just keeps and then the whole bunch is like yeah girl sit down oh man hey now hey now hey now hey now you're in it to win it welcome back to the Zelenia Rewatch podcast I'm Allie I'm Candace and we are talking about a human being today we're talking about a person we've never done this before on our podcast this will be new it'll be fun I feel like it'll be a bit nonsensical if you if you ask me yes Candace and I our our vibe for this episode is you know just the just the little kooky silly just the relatable just the just the crimped hair just the low rise just the the everything what do you call that girl about it that girl the quirky girl Lizzie McGuy the quirky girl yeah yes we are talking about Miss Hillary Duff who is having quite the renaissance in 2026 truly at the time that we're recording is she on tour or she is yeah okay and right so right now it's March and I have tickets to see her in July so I feel like it's kind of like a long tour for somebody who hasn't been out there in a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I knew that and then I forgot and now I'm relearning that and that is amazing for you.

SPEAKER_06 2:01

I'm gonna get to have a visceral experience when she says hey now and the key change as far as why we decided on Hillary as like that this is our first time talking about a person is because Candace and I feel very strongly that Hillary Duff kind of is the blueprint for what every Disney kid of like our generation became like she truly is a cultural North Star for Zillennials.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Which when you because you pitched this to me and I was like Hillary Duff really wasn't that girl for me. I was a Raven girl I came into Disney a little bit later but like what Hillary Duff did with Disney Channel I'm not gonna discredit that at all especially because she was the first of a lot of things when it comes to the media that she was in the multi-talented and faceted things that were you know presented to her.

SPEAKER_06 3:13

Yeah If that makes sense you know what I mean uh flashing to you know that clip of Raven's podcast where her wife is like I never watched that so Raven and Raven like stares at the camera and is like she was watching Lizzie McGuire I feel like in that moment I'm Raven you're my wife and I am and I am babe I am yeah um and that's okay something I said I was gonna send you but I never sent you is this diagram for listeners I'm holding up my Bible listen that's me thumping thumping my Bible um okay this is a diagram of like when the Disney Channel shows like our key 2000 shows premiered and like when they ran and so here's Lizzie Maguire oh right here and you can see the whole time that she's running and so while Lizzie Maguire so this was January 2021 and then um last episode aired February 2004 during this time this is where we see yes this is where we see um this next line is that so Raven because it started in 2003 went to 2007 we see the cheetah girls on here um in 2003 we see fill of the future kind of coming in right after Lizzie McGuire ends after Phil of the future we get Sweet Life is acting Cody Hannah Montana you know so on and so forth um but she kind of is like I mean technically even Stevens started in 2000 and I feel like even Stevens was like the first like real hit sitcom of the 2000s. Yeah but then very quickly Lizzie McGuire kind of trumped it so to speak um wow I don't think I realized that again I wasn't that so Raven girl right Disney Channel was not introduced to me until like first grade first second grade I'm sorry y'all I'm battling these Midwest allergies and a head cold I got a cough drop in my mouth leave me alone you said I'm battling I'm battling tooth and nail with this stinky ass cough drop anyway we are gonna talk about how Hillary Duff's career kind of like was the foundation for the entire Disney Channel industrial complex I think something fun to do really quick would be to read a couple of quotes from my Bible and then jump into it. So just to kind of prove the point that she was that girl for many girls uh we're actually gonna read a quote from Miley Cyrus. Whoa so this is out of the Rise of Hannah Montana chapter in the Disney High text Old Testament uh verse sorry that's I don't know if that's sacrilegious to say um anyway in in my I'm like Psalm 3367 says and now a reading from the book of Hannah it is Sunday for all of us amen okay so this is talking about the production of Hannah Montana before production on any Disney Channel series began Rich Ross hosted a family dinner for the cast and their parents a tradition he'd first began when working at Nickelodeon he says I wanted to open up the door if people needed things and leave no mystery to the man behind the curtain. From the beginning I always knew the talent would be our calling card and they knew I cared deeply. At the gathering for Hannah Montana he recalled Miley being very clear about her intentions in the industry and telling him Hillary Duff is my role model. That's what I want to be that's who I want to be this is an opportunity amen.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

So she was that girl to Miley and Miley is that girl to us you know yeah which I'm not surprised but I do find it interesting that like and maybe we talked about this in the Hannah Montana episode but Miley went on to be a legend a Disney legend and it does make me wonder what happened for both of their successes from the Disney Channel to be just so different that like one had a really really successful career and one has I would say it's still a fairly successful career.

SPEAKER_06 8:04

Hey let's let's just call call a spade a spade um Hillary Duff got married and had a baby when she was 23. Miley is rocking childless you know what I'm saying? Yeah that changes your career trajectory significantly you rest our case yeah that's true I mean I think there were some other things and we'll get into it about like Hillary's mom and the way that she kind of was like trying to throw Hillary's weight around in the industry that I think sometimes backfired. But anyway I do think getting married and having a baby changes the course of your career success, you know? Most definitely and going through a divorce like having three more kids like Hilary Duff is like a family girly now.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Which that's a big thing right now.

SPEAKER_06 8:57

Yeah for with her mom group oh T T T Ashley Tisdale you dirty dog wait did you know that it was Hilary Duff's husband who like commented on that? Yes. Isn't that silly like I just feel like a little bit boy stay out of it you're not a mom he did a whole article. Didn't he do an article? I thought it was just like an Instagram post.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Uh it might have been just an Instagram post but I just remember he like remade one of Hill or not Hillary's photos one of Ashley Tisdale's photos and posted it. So maybe it was just an Instagram post and basically had a rebuttal to what she was saying and I was like this is yeah the husband's getting involved is crazy.

SPEAKER_06 9:45

You know who else is getting involved? My cat spot. Spot she said you can't be having tea time with the girls and not involve me. It's girls might um okay what do you call it like in filmmaking where you put the ending in the beginning and then you like reverse tell the story. Is there a term for that?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Probably do you know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_06 10:06

Where like you see like you see the future like early on in the movie. Guys that's what we're doing right now foreshadowing. Foreshadowing yes this is gonna be very explicit foreshadowing for what the rest of the episode is about to be about again a reading from the Book of Lizzie Disney High verse anyway. And when Lizzie Maguire ended its run the lesson that Disney Channel took from the show's unprecedented success wasn't that the network needed us needed more single camera low-stakes comedies it was that it needed more stars. A marketable beloved star like Hillary was the key that could unlock movie franchises record deals and merchandising opportunities across the Disney landscape and bolster the Disney Channel brand to a whole new level they were starting to see the future wow I feel like something that you and I have talked a lot about is like the Disney Channel industrial complex of like they're on TV they make music they make movies they sell clothing they sell toys like like there is just literally like a marketing machine and they hadn't really done that for any one show prior to Lizzie Maguire bars.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Which I find yes which I again find really interesting because in the one chapter that I did listen to from your Bible and I'm sure we'll talk about it more later the merch that went out surrounding Lizzie Maguire did not have Hillary Duff's face on it. They only used the little animated like inner voice of Lizzie Maguire which I thought was genius.

SPEAKER_06 11:56

Well because like that's where that's what Disney was comfortable with is like they had only ever sold like stuffed animals of animated characters. Like they hadn't really marketed like a star yet. We already know what happens when Miley Cyrus gets her line in Walmart. Kaboom kaboom kabla we go crazy I I feel like Hillary Duff was a really big like learning lesson for the Disney brand and they were like oh if we can just keep doing this and keep turning out these kid actor stars like we're gold and they were correct.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

I want to know how like it all started you know what I didn't realize and let me pull up my notes period that Disney Channel had been around since the 80s. Yeah and we might have talked about this before but I don't think it set in until I heard that it didn't start until 1983 and there was very little success with some of the shows.

SPEAKER_06 12:59

Yeah tell tell the good people what used to be on Disney Channel girl I was about to say Steamboat Willy No it wasn't like variety shows it was like nature documentaries it was like old reruns like it was really really like mismatched like the channel could not find their lane they couldn't find their brand it was kind of a flop until the Mickey Mouse Club did a little comeback and we got stars like Britney Spears Justin Timberlake Christina Aguilera Ryan Reynolds Ryan and how dare I didn't realize because he's Canadian. Yeah so whole other ballpark if you Disney kind of struck gold with those talents but they didn't keep the talents after the Mickey Mouse club Britney Spears went on to secure her own recording contract outside of Disney as did Christine Aguilera as did Justin Timberlake and I feel like um not I feel like it's it's written verbatim in this book that we read that um the executives were like dang it like those people went on to have such huge careers and we just let them walk out of our door like we didn't even try to give them a record deal like it was out of sight out of mind.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

I do wonder how different their careers would have been had Disney Channel kind of been on top of that. And part of me feels like it would not have been the same like probably not as big not as successful.

SPEAKER_06 14:39

Right. And if it was successful it wouldn't have gone as far as we still are right now you know like with your Britney Spears with Justin Timberlake Christina Aguilera and I'm only leaving Ryan Reynolds out because he's not a singer yeah and he's not our you know modern day singer he is controversial though really I mean his wife and the the Justin Baldoni of it all we have the wrong Ryan Ryan Gosling I'm gonna leave that all in there what's crazy is I was picturing I was picturing Ryan Gosling in my head as a young person and then when I was picturing as him as an adult I was picturing Ryan Reynolds that's good but no Ryan Gosling is who we're who we're talking about major movie star not problematic not involved with Justin Baldoni Taylor Swift or Blake Lively that we know said Bridget Menler. Not Bridget anyway yeah so let's let's talk about why Hillary like why why her at the end of the day Disney was like dang it we messed up we should have held on to those talented stars um here comes Lizzie McGuire here comes this show that is Hillary's debut um it's all about like a quirky girl that every girl who's like so relatable um and the show was a really big hit not only amongst tweens but also amongst I think the way that the book tells it is like there was a a strong viewing presence on like the 11 p.m rerun and the Disney execs were like who is watching this at 11 p.m like what demographic is watching this college girls the college girls college girls the character of Lizzie had just a really like wide wide array of people who felt like they were represented in her who um they felt like they could relate to her and in addition to just like the the show itself being you know well made a hit like there was a lot of critical things that were happening in that era number one being in 2003 Hillary Duff was one of the very first kids ever to draw the little mouse in the corner of the screen and say I'm Hillary Duff and you're watching Disney Channel like they had just introduced that and what was really interesting to Iconic period like how many times did you practice that in your bedroom? So many. And the way that I really felt like I was practicing like when I get cast on my own Disney Channel show I want to know how to draw the mouse like I wasn't playing pretend I was rehearsing.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Totally and we're gonna do it someday. Very good um one thing I want to say about Lizzie McGuire really quick the one thing not the one thing but one of the things that I took from that like excerpt was the cute girl playing the not cute girl. Yes is what I feel like added to Lizzie McGuire's like relatability between all ages.

SPEAKER_06 18:18

100% yeah I feel like that's my two cents there's a lot of like like bubbliness that comes with the awkwardness and the quirkiness um that makes the character likeable and not just cringe you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yes because there's a lot of things to cringe about within Lizzie McGuire so true.

SPEAKER_06 18:41

Same thing like kind of along the lines of that she was the first one to paint the Disney logo with the wand like this time at Disney Channel the execs were trying to figure out like okay will kids understand the difference between a character and an actor like prior to this all of the advertisements that Disney had done had been with those actors in character and not playing themselves and so they just were like they weren't sure like will kids understand that this is not a real person that this is an actor we did and uh honey we knew we understood we understood the assignment because when she released Metamorphosis I loved listening to that album just the same as I loved watching Lizzie Maguire you know what I mean yeah yeah and also we can't talk about Lizzie Maguire without talking about like the Y2K style of it all the low rise jeans the crimped hair I mean look at us the layers the chokers I have a choker it was too complicated to get off my mic it's on my mic but yeah the style I literally looked up Lizzie McGuire outfit like inspo the patterns the colors just the the way that they were pairing things together is just not something I can imagine myself doing now but like these teen girls were pulling it off yes and I feel I shouldn't even say teen but like tweens yeah the hairstyles in that show were insane do you know if I'm if I talk about the mom's hair do you know what I'm referencing it was always in the claw clip right just google Google search Lizzie McGuire mom hair it was like a million tiny claw clips is what I remember. Oh do you see how there's like a million little clippies in there yeah and for some reason I was like that's the look like that that's a that's awesome I want my hair to be like that oh there's one that I just found that is just so complicated yeah I feel like we kind of talked about this with like the wardrobe design when we were talking about Hannah Montana but like this kind of fine line between like wanting it to be aspirational but not out of reach. Like oh like we want to inspire girls to like wear a fun outfit to school but not be so crazy kooky over the line that they wouldn't actually want to wear it you know yeah I feel like they rode that line really well I'm sure I pulled up to middle school looking crazy as hell because I got inspired by a Hannah Montana outfit and did listen I have no shame. I'm not gonna even comment on the things I was wearing to school because I started dressing myself in kindergarten like my mom was like I'm not gonna fight with you every single day over For what you wear because it's not worth it. And she did allow me to wear some crazy things out in public.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Give us the least like out there one.

SPEAKER_06 22:12

Um, well, it was just like truly, it was just stuff that didn't match. You know, like as an adult, you're like, ah yes, like we're not gonna wear black and navy together, like pick one. No, I was I was mixing and matching patterns, colors. My dad was colorblind, so if he got me ready for school, it was like all bets are off.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I will want to see a picture later, but we simply have to move on. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 22:37

Um so here's another thing that was kind of new and different about Hillary's career that Disney Channel realized, oh damn, like we we have a star on our hands. Is not only did she do the decom of decomms, Cadet Kelly. Um I wrote in my notes quintessential decom for the girls, gays, and mostly gay girls.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Still haven't seen it, okay? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Candace. I really, I really wanted to prep I really, really wanted to watch to prepare. But life has other plans and hours in the day are just so short.

SPEAKER_06 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

I can only do so much. But I know that recently, because I'm chronically online, it has been like a resurgence of conversation about how gay it is.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

And like the underlying tension.

SPEAKER_06 23:41

You've heard of heated rivalry, but have you heard of heated military? Like somehow that movie glamorized the military for me. I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 24:00

What's funny is like I I told you ahead of this, I was like, oh, I loved Cadet Kelly. Like, I loved that movie so much as a kid. And I fear I did not like overstate that in any way, shape, or form. I may have even understated it. Because most of the time when I go back and watch a movie that I know I watched a lot as a kid, I'll be like, oh, I forgot about this part. Like, oh, I forgot. Like major things that happened in the plot. Candace, I remember this movie frame by frame. Not one thing happened on the screen that I didn't remember. Down to the outfit. Down to the choreography. I'm like, I'm like, oh, I watched this every week as a child.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

I love that for you. I really do.

SPEAKER_06 24:42

I was twirling my toy. I didn't have a toy gun, but I would twirl something around because they they do rifle work in that movie.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Get me a broom, get me an umbrella, do something, please. And give me some combat boots.

SPEAKER_06 25:00

So I can stomp around. Anyway, I could I and you know what? In the future, we should do a full episode on Cadet Kelly because that is how passionate I am about that movie.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I think it'll, you know. I haven't verbalized it, but in my mind, I'm always like, what queer thing can we throw into an episode? So hey, if we can talk about Cadet Kelly, the whole episode will be queer.

SPEAKER_06 25:26

We're not throwing it in. It's the whole thing. Um wasn't it Christy Carlson Romano? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah. Kim Possible.

SPEAKER_06 25:38

Kim Possible.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

That show, also gay.

SPEAKER_06 25:42

So Disney put her in a D-com, Cadet Kelly. Okay, by 2004, she is starring in a theatrical release of a Cinderella story. And that really That was my shit. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

That was my shit.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

That kind of solidified her as like, okay, she can be a leading lady, like in a theatrical release. She starred opposite of Chad Michael Murray, who like was the 2000s heartthrob of all heartthrobs. I feel like that movie really elevated her to like this kind of movie star status that other Disney kids maybe hadn't achieved.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Truly. I that was my introduction to Jennifer Coolidge. So true.

SPEAKER_06 26:25

Probably mine too.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Well, Legally Blonde came out before that, right?

SPEAKER_06 26:30

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

I wasn't into Legally Blonde as much as other people were. Like the girls that were just a couple years older than me. But a Cinderella story had me. L O L. In a chokehold. That was my shit. Literally.

SPEAKER_06 26:48

I feel like it was for so many girls our age. Yeah. Like.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Because we all that's crazy. We all wanted the hot guy to text us.

SPEAKER_06 26:57

I wanted a cell phone, first of all.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Number one on the list, cell phone.

SPEAKER_06 27:02

Number two, texting capabilities. T9. Number three. Please. Give me Chad Michael Murray on the line. Absolutely. Let's talk about Hillary's movie that we haven't mentioned and people will literally kill us if we don't talk about.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 27:23

The Lizzie Maguire movie.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

The Lizzie McGuire movie. Hey now, hey now. I was gonna say I saw something once that was like, you know what generation in the room, or hello, you know what generation is in the room when you say, like, hey now, and then it's like someone else is like, Hey now. Yeah. Or they go, You're a rock star, and I blew my mind. Not you're a rock star! Because I feel both. I am the Lizzie McGuire movie, and I am Shrek. That is the Zillennial position. That is Welcome back to the Zillenial Rewatch Podcast.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

Listen.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

But yeah, I just thought that was a funny little blurb. But the Lizzie Maguire movie, as you were.

SPEAKER_06 28:13

Total aside, I got coffee with my friend this morning, and she was telling me about um like a workout class she went to that was Miley Cyrus eras themed. And then at the end of the workout, they like were doing like a cool down like stretch, and they played Used to Be Young. And Ashley was like, I literally thought I was gonna cry in this public class because like all of the like elder Gen Z, like younger millennials that were in that room having that shared experience, like went to church that day. Like that workout class was it solidified all of those women in that room. And I was like, that is the meaning of being a zelennial.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:57

Is crying to used to be young in the Pilates studio.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Not me flashing back to the morning of your wedding, crying to for good.

SPEAKER_06 29:10

That's the meaning of being a theater kid, okay? That has nothing to do with being a zelennial. Don't get it twisted.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

These are two different. Just separate them. Separate them right now. Oh man. Put me in a room with people that I love and we're just listening to music. I start crying.

SPEAKER_06 29:26

There could be a hundred people in a room, and you only need one to believe in you.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Exactly. Further aside, we went to a jazz or size class. Tell me why love on top almost made me cry. I can't dance with women that I love, clearly, because I start to cry.

SPEAKER_06 29:45

Anyway. I think there's some research to be done about emotional regulation in neurodivergent women. Like, why do I cry to songs that aren't sad?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

The bad part is it was the second time we heard the song because that's how the whole class started. We went through the whole set, and then this the music just started over, and I was like, why am I gonna cry?

SPEAKER_06 30:20

That is so real. That is literally so real. I cried stupid shit in the car all the time. Like Thank You Next by Ariana Grande used to make me cry. Why? It's when she says, one day I'll walk down the aisle holding hands with my mama. And like, I've taken my dad. Because she grew from the drama. But literally, like it just used to get me. I don't know. Anyway, let's talk about Disney taking a big old gamble. So here's what we know. We know that Disney did decomps. There's a million of them. They're really good at doing them. They were unsure about doing a theatrical release. They were not sure if fans would leave their bedrooms where they can watch Lizzie Maguire in the comfort of their own home to go to the movie theater. Spoiler. We all did. Um, the Lizzie Maguire movie was a massive success, and it proved that like the Disney Channel brand could go beyond just the small screen. This paved the way for future theatrical releases, such as High School Musical 3, as we have already discussed. Not me hitting my microphone because I'm talking with my hands so much. But like that movie, I mean, we don't have to get into all of it. Again, it could be a whole other episode.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

That could be another episode.

SPEAKER_06 31:46

But like the Roman holiday of it all, like I truly, as a young child, believed that I would study abroad one day and meet my husband.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

I mean, in a way you did.

SPEAKER_06 31:59

Studied abroad.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

You went on your honeymoon with your husband.

SPEAKER_06 32:02

I went on my honeymoon with my husband.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 32:06

But I did not meet him there, unfortunately. But like, so many things about that movie, the fashion show montage, the big final number, um, the Coliseum of it all.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Like the coin toss into the big ass fountain.

SPEAKER_06 32:23

And now that that fountain is like a huge landmark that people go to in Italy when previously nobody used to throw coins in that one.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

I was gonna say that was never a thing.

SPEAKER_06 32:33

That movie made it. And one thing about Americans, we're we're gonna make everything our business. Our business, our problem. Um but here's what. So here's one thing, here's some like behind-the-scenes TTT is that Hilary Duff's mom was honestly like the OG Chris Jenner, I feel. Like she was momagering her way, Hillary's way to the top. What was her name? I I want to say Lynn, but god, that can't be it.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Before I hit enter, I'm like Carla.

SPEAKER_06 33:12

Nancy.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Mm-hmm. Not full Karen. No. But like sister. Let's see. Susan. Susan. Susan! Susan Duff. Yeah. Susan Colleen Duff. Period. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 33:28

Well, Miss Susan was quite the negotiator. She reportedly was known to kind of like shop Hillary around and be like, they're gonna offer us this much at this studio for this movie, this, that, the other. Uh that's kind of what happened with the Cinderella story, is Disney. So I believe that the Duffs got the script and they were shopping it around to see like who would want to do it. I think it's a Warner Brothers movie, isn't it? Methinks. They didn't even take it to Disney, and Disney was pissed because obviously it ended up being a huge success. And Disney was like, why would you not even consider us?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Oh, yeah, Warner Brothers.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Period. Mm-hmm. Um, so as you know, in her momager vein, she was very, very particular that there had to be a song in the Lizzie McGuire movie so that Hillary could sing and audiences could hear her voice and the whole nine. And that song that we keep referencing, the people who wrote it kind of are calling it like a Eurovision, like Euro pop star type song, which is not what Metamorphosis turned out to be at all. And I feel like if I remember correctly, the Duffs like had a little bit of beef about that. They were like, this isn't, this isn't her, like, we need something else. And the the movie people were like, trust us, babe, this is the song. It has to be this.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Well, it makes sense. Because it, yes, it is Hilary Duff singing, but it's the the other girl, too. Isabella.

SPEAKER_06 35:07

I don't know why that was so funny. You're like the other girl.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

That other girl.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

Also Hilary Duff.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Right, with a bad wig.

SPEAKER_06 35:17

Why, yes, she did wear a wig while she was playing. While she was playing the Italian pop star Isabella Parigi in interviews. She loved, she noted she loved wearing the brown wig, but she did not like that green outfit, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Not in her color season.

SPEAKER_06 35:36

Uh, yo, that sheepskin.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

What sheepskin?

SPEAKER_06 35:47

Yeah, that green outfit, those green and silver outfits. So all of that was on a green screen. So they went to the costume department and they were like, look, she can't wear green, blue, she can't wear anything that sparkles, because this all has to be, you know, green screen. And the costume people were like, mmm, she's absolutely gonna wear green, blue, and something that sparkles. So to get those looks. Oh my. It's like a polished sheepskin, like dyed and polished, so that it's not just like pure sequins or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Well, then your comment track.

SPEAKER_06 36:24

I just like that's so irrelevant to the to the star rising of Hillary Duff.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

I mean, she wore it.

SPEAKER_06 36:31

She wore it, maybe. Anyway, there are there are other movies that she did in the early 2000s, like Cheaper by the Dozen, like, oh my god, what's the one where she sings and it's not her voice? Raise your voice. You know the scene I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yes, that's a vocal stem of mine, and every once in a while I forget about it.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Wait, do it. La la la la la la la la la la la la.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Period. It's a different person.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She just keeps And then the whole class is like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Girls, sit down. Oh man.

SPEAKER_06 37:26

So as we know, Miss Hillary, she was doing movies in the early 2000s. She was. She was singing, acting, dancing. Yes, yes, and we'll never let her live down dancing on the Today Show. Let's talk about her music career, okay? So previously, Disney Channel quote unquote lost talent like Justin Timberlake, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, they all went to outside labels. Hillary released Metamorphosis with Hollywood Records. I'm gonna totally butcher this. There's Hollywood Records and then there's like Walt Disney Records or something. Yeah. Anyway, one of them is more for like movie soundtracks, like which I would assume is the Walt Disney Records.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah. So that they own like those songs.

SPEAKER_06 38:11

Yeah. But she I mean, they she was kind of like deciding between the two record labels. Ultimately, Hollywood Records is who releases Metamorphosis with hits like So Yesterday, Come Clean, Sweet 16 is on that album. Dude, I can't even lie. I listened to that album yesterday to kind of like lock in and get ready for this episode.

SPEAKER_07 38:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 38:36

Another thing that I'm like, oh, I know every word to this.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I should have. I'm telling you. The hours in the day just aren't long enough. And there's another album that was released this weekend that I had to listen to. Whose? Disco All the Time Kiss Occasionally by the Harry Styles. I haven't listened yet. That's okay. Is it good? Yeah. Period. There's only a couple songs where I'm like, oh yeah, this is disco. Oh. But I will be putting it on, you know, come time to clean.

SPEAKER_06 39:09

I'll have to listen to it. When it's time to come clean by Hillary Duff.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

And we're back in with things now.

SPEAKER_06 39:16

I love that. Anyway, so at this time, she's doing movies. She's making music. She is like kind of hitting all those different branches of the Disney industrial complex. And she starts going on a lot of like red carpet interviews. She starts doing press. Like she is the first one who is really like out there representing herself beyond just being on a Disney Channel sitcom. And the thing about Hillary Duff is that just genuinely her personality is like bubbly. Like she is an optimist. If you listen to her new album, which I did also do in preparation for this, she literally has a song on there called The Optimist. And um, she kind of like makes references on the album to like her parents' divorce and like not talking to her sister, and just like her own divorce, like meant like all this kind of like bad stuff that's happened in her life. And this song is literally like, but like what other choice do I have besides to be optimistic? And I I feel like it speaks to who she is, like she just kind of was naturally bubbly, outgoing, and she kind of had this more like squeaky clean image. Um, and I I feel like the early 2000s press was pretty like brutal, and there were definitely times when she was sexualized, and there definitely were times when like people asked her inappropriate questions, like disgusting stuff. But like at the end of the day, she was by and large like viewed as like a squeaky clean type of girl, she was just like a normal girl, and this was like just how she was, and therefore the other Disney kids were expected to act like that because she kind of set this example unknowingly, you know? Yeah, and like it wasn't hard for her to do that because that's just who she was, you know. There's a quote in the book about like the like the Duff family basically being like pretty well off and her mom being very strict once again. I want to say it was like a showrunner or producer or somebody on Lizzie McGuire was like the vibe was that like if Hillary was acting like a brat, her mom would put her in line and be like, we don't need to be here, like we can go home to Texas right now. So, like, you're gonna act right and do what you're supposed to do. Okay, Susan. Okay, Susan. Um, have we talked about this? Is kind of off track. Have we talked about um how Hillary got the part in Agent Cody Banks with Frankie Muniz?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

No, but before we get to that, there's the note that I was like, I must say this. So we we're talking about her music career and how the Disney Channel is wanting to, you know, create these triple threats essentially. Yeah. Let's talk about her singing voice. Oh, I just wanna I just want to talk. Yeah, I I just wanna talk. I think somewhere in that chapter they talk about how her singing voice was very similar to her talking voice. And I want to ask you, just in general, not Hillary Duff, when you think of a singer, do you want them like do you want their voice to sound like their talking voice?

SPEAKER_06 42:37

I think that's interesting because I think for most pop stars, they just do. And that's something that Andrew and I have talked about is like in classical singing, like you're taught to sing, like in that type of training, but like pop stars, I feel like are often kind of like taught like your sound, your tone, like you want to sound like you so that you can be identifiable. That was a weird I put the emphasis on the wrong syllable. Um compared to like people who grow up like singing in a choir, like learning to blend, it's like you don't want to stand out, you want to sound like all the other Altos, you know what I mean? So I feel like I don't know. I guess I probably like do it's not that I want all the pop stars to sound like themselves, like their singing voice to sound like their speaking voice. I just think they do.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Me personally, well, this was my other like point to this, is I don't know who said this, but basically they were like she's just good enough to sing. Like she could carry a tune and she has some rhythm. Yep. So she was just good enough. And the reason why I bring up the whole singing versus talking voice is because if they sound the same, then I feel like, yeah, that is good enough. Because you can carry a tune, you have rhythm. But right now, I don't feel like good enough is good enough for some people anymore. And I I'll say it. I think I'm one of those people. If you come across an artist that sings like they talk, what are we doing? You know? Yeah. Like have your style. You know, put that out there. There is an exception that I'm thinking of off the top of my head. Ari Lennox. Okay. Her voice sounds like butter and brown sugar. Her singing voice is the exact same.

SPEAKER_06 44:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

So, in that regard, I'm like, yeah, do whatever the hell you want, Queen.

SPEAKER_06 44:42

To your point.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, keep going. Technique, though, it's I think it's about technique and knowing how to manipulate your voice so that it's like this is my singing voice. Yeah. Not just my talking voice.

SPEAKER_06 44:57

Well, I feel like because we're talking about her as the blueprint, Hilary Duff was able to get by with being good enough. Miley Cyrus, Sabrina Carpenter, Olivia Rodrigo, like these talents are not just good enough, they're great. You know? And it's because Hilary Duff kind of started this whole industrial complex where, like, oh, if I'm getting cast on a Disney Channel show, that means that I could get a record deal. That means that I could get a movie. So I not only have to be a great actress, I have to sing. And I I I can't just be good enough. I have to be the best because everybody else auditioning for this part, they also can sing. And they also can dance. And they, you know, like I I feel like she got to be good enough because she was the first.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

That's good. Yeah. She got to be good enough because she was the first. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 45:52

Okay, so I put a little note in here of like, if we have time, we could talk about this 2000s tea, which I think is really interesting. Examining how Hiller was able to maintain her like good girl image despite being involved in like major drama in the early aughts. Should we chat about it?

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah, let's talk about it. Does this also involve how she got her role on Asia Coney Banks?

SPEAKER_06 46:18

Oh no. Here's that. Here's a small aside. There's an interview of um Frankie Muniz kind of saying that Hillary's mom like manipulated him into getting the part. That's why I was. Because I think he was like the first actor hired. And I don't know because of his like fame at the time, like he got to kind of have a small say in like the casting process, which I don't know how true or not true that is. But I guess Hillary's mom like cornered him at some event or something and got him talking about the movie. I know Susan. Susan, stay in your lane, Susan, and basically like pressured him into like giving her the information that she needed to go like call Hillary's agent and get her the audition. And like, I'm I'm sure she auditioned, I'm sure there was some of that, but he in this interview, he's like an adult talking about it. He's like, Yeah, uh, I liked working with Hillary, I didn't like her mom. And the interviewer's like, Okay, like, what are you what what are you talking about? And he like kind of tells that story. Susan was ruthless. Hey, mom and jerk not to bring up my first crush, the late Aaron Carter, R.I.P. King. He really was my first crush. Yeah. Um, they supposedly, according to this book, sent Hillary and her team from Lizzie Maguire to Aaron Carter's birthday party to get them to like talk to each other and convince Aaron Carter to come on Lizzie Maguire.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Another note that I wrote down that has to do with this is like, I can't imagine that these teen birthday parties are actual parties. They've got to just be networking events, right?

SPEAKER_06 48:02

Oh yeah. Oh my god. Like, what are we doing? Like the fact that Hillary Duff didn't just get dropped off by her parents, that she was there with like a publicist and like a producer. I think actually who it was was like a writer. It was like a 26-year-old writer. It was at like this 13-year-old boy's birthday party.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

That's problematic enough. Yeah. You're like, hold on, she was where? There need to be parents, chaperones, no touching.

SPEAKER_06 48:29

Leave room for Jesus. It's Sunday after all. Well, anyway, I'm I'm glad I was able to um bring in my love for Aaron Carter because that's who this story is all about. So in the early 2000s, there was a love triangle between Hilary Duff, Aaron Carter, and Lindsay Lohan.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Here we are.

SPEAKER_06 48:50

So this kind of was taking place between like 2002, 2003. These people at this time, mind you, were like 15 and 16 years old. They were not adults by any means. And so the fact that this was like people writing about this in magazines is like weird in and of itself. But anyway, actually, Hillary Duff just talked about this on the Call Her Daddy podcast. And she's like, Yeah, like that happened. This is all true. Um, and the way that Hillary kind of talks about it is like there were no cell phones, so like there was no like I didn't have his location. Because I think the question was like, was he like two-timing you? Like, was he dating both of you guys? And Hillary was like, Well, I mean, probably, like, we didn't even have phones. He probably was like calling both of us and hanging out with both of us at separate times. Anyway, so there was a very petty uh red carpet war happening. So Hillary famously showed up to the Freaky Friday premiere in 2003, and which another fantastic movie. Yeah, such a good movie. I love that movie. Um we gotta talk about it. We do. Supposedly, according to Hillary, she was invited there by Chad Michael Murray, who was in the movie, and she knew Chad Michael Murray from a Cinderella story, blah blah blah blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

They go way back.

SPEAKER_06 50:10

They go way back. Um, but she she did show up uninvited, technically. And that pissed Lindsay off. So then Lindsay retaliated, quote unquote. I don't even know like what retaliation is for these teen celebrities. Um, but she showed up to the cheaper by the dozen premiere uninvited.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

And I would have thought she was one of the kids, please.

SPEAKER_06 50:33

Yeah, for real. Um, anyway, here's here's the point of this is that both of those girls were equally involved. Some say Hillary did it first. You know what I mean? Like the Freaky Friday premiere happened first. So she kind of was like the instigator, but because of her reputation as like the every girl, the relatable girl, like the bubbly, like nice one, she got viewed by the public largely as like the one who was wronged. You know, she was like, she was just the sweet girl defending herself. Meanwhile, Lindsay Lohan, she gets made into like, you know, she's the difficult one, she's the dramatic one. And like public opinion about the two different girls at the time was like Hillary was like this family girl who was, you know, seen with her sister. Like she got to maintain like her squeaky clean image. Meanwhile, Lindsay Lohan kind of got labeled like this troubled teen who, you know, obviously her life kind of took a different path after that. Which is so unfortunate, like to be labeled, like you said, the starlit and then have all this, you know, shit happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

In your life.

SPEAKER_06 51:47

Yeah. I mean, Hillary and Lindsay were equal parts involved in that feud. I feel like that's such a silly word to say, but uh a feud is a feud, whatever. They were both involved equally. Hillary comes out clean. Lindsay Lohan gets pulled into more and more feuds with other celebrities like Paris Hilton, and she just like kind of gets pigeonholed as this like bad girl. Anyway, they're good now. Hillary and Lindsay, they're fine. I think Hillary also said on Call Her Daddy that like one of her daughters really loves Lindsay Lohan movies.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

And that's all you need. Period. You know? To settle the fire, have your child love your enemy.

SPEAKER_06 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

That's it.

SPEAKER_06 52:30

Anyway, that's just a fun early 2000s aside. Let's talk about what we came here to talk about, is how she literally laid the framework, okay? So obviously, we already said Miley Cyrus said, I want to be just like her. Miley Cyrus said that to Disney executives. Unlike Hillary, there was a next generation of stars who were not naturally as squeaky clean, did not have the family support that Hillary had, and who had a really hard time with fitting into that mold of the good girl that Hillary created, i.e. Miley Cyrus, i.e. Demi Lovato. They had a really hard time with it. And I I just think the funny thing is that, like, I think us as the general public assumed that Disney was quote unquote training them and was like, you have to say this, you have to do all of this stuff, but really it was almost like like work culture, you know? Like Hillary did it first, so they just were expected to. Um, and it was hard for them.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I love how female forward like all these stars are that have come out of Disney Channel, or just like female forward, a lot of these movies were when we were growing up. I mean, you have Lindsay Lohan, you do have Hillary's sister Haley, and many, many other women. But I feel like you see more of these women getting talked about and judged for no reason at all, scrutinized just for being a woman in the public eye, which is another, you know, it's not good, but like the whole Britney crawled so Sabrina could fly. Yeah, it's like even now Britney Spears is still being watched with like girl, she got a DUI this week.

SPEAKER_06 54:23

What Britney? Come on, girl, she needs help. I didn't even someone help her. She is still struggling. Free Britney. Sorry, uh that was say it loud.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

That generation of girl is still being looked at like a problem, yeah. A liability, or something that we need to keep an eye on, and it's like I am glad that there was someone, Hillary, who kept that squeaky clean image that kind of trickled down into what we have now, yeah, but at the same time having that stigma around Disney Channel stars, I'm sure can be a lot on these young women. Yeah. Because think about Zendaya, like I feel like she's so private now because of the image that was like forced onto her with Disney Channel, whereas her co-star, Bella Thorne, is like complete opposite.

SPEAKER_06 55:29

Went off the deep end, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

And it's like, where's the middle ground here? Yeah, yeah. So I do wonder like what needs to happen to keep everyone, you know, physically and mentally safe.

SPEAKER_06 55:43

Safe and protected on TV. Yeah. It's interesting that you bring up Zendaya, you know, like Hillary Duff. She went on to do theatrical releases, like Hilary Duff walked off Disney Channel, walked on to Cheaper by the Dozen, walked on to you know, these movie sets, Demi Lovato walked off Disney Channel and went to rehab, you know? Girl. So like you're you're really speaking to like you're either gonna be a major star, be a movie star, you know, make you know, platinum records, or like you're gonna be in bad health. Yeah, there's no invention.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Like at what point where are we just okay, you know?

SPEAKER_06 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

When can we just be okay?

SPEAKER_06 56:27

That's really interesting. I don't have the answer.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

No, I mean, no one does, you know.

SPEAKER_06 56:33

And I feel like I I guess the the bigger the bigger conversation is around the Disney machine, right? Because like that excerpt that I read at the beginning, it was like Disney didn't really know what they were doing. It seems so obvious in hindsight, like, well, of course, the the you know, theatrical release, you know, movie department should work with the television department, should work with the music department. Like, of course, it should be like a three-legged stool where like the star gets to sit on top of all of these things. But the thing about creatives, which I'm sure you know, is that it's hard for them to work together and they all have their ideas about how things should go. And I feel like Hillary Duff was one of the first cases where they could like set aside their differences and not just like, you know, beef with each other about petty, stupid like notes on projects and actually be like, oh, if we all work together, we're all gonna get rich.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

I think it goes back to being good enough.

SPEAKER_06 57:28

Yeah. She was just good enough to hit all those categories, have it all work out.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Yeah. And now you have, you know, I'm really good at this, but this has got to be worked on.

SPEAKER_06 57:40

That three-legged stool's a little wobbly. We're not working. One of those legs is a little shorter. Anyway, but I I hope we're making the point like clear that like there is a Disney channel star to pop star, Disney Channel star to movie star pipeline. Whether you're Miley, whether you're Zendaya, you have these opportunities placed before you as a Disney kid, thanks to someone like Hillary Duff who was building that pipeline. She built that thing brick by brick. Her Susan, Susan was laying those bricks. Susie, if you're nasty. Oh yeah, but for real. Susan. Um, my favorite thing to talk about is like, let's just say for real, Brittany Spears is a legend. She is a queen, she's a star. But in in the in the Disney framework, she really was just like crawling. Like, she didn't she didn't do much at Disney before she moved on. So that's why we say, you know, Britney Spears was the talent that Disney didn't hold on to. Britney crawled so that Hillary could walk, so that Miley could run, so that Sabrina Carpenter could fly, okay? Because fly, literally. If you look at Sabrina's career, like she's so refined, she's so like, she just is a superstar. Yeah, she learned that from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

The ones before her. Yeah, she was and the ones before her.

SPEAKER_06 59:12

Exactly. What is that like? We stand on we stand on the shoulders of giants type beat.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:17

Isn't that a quote that people say?

SPEAKER_01 59:19

It's a metaphor for how modern knowledge, innovation, and achievements are built on the foundational work of predecessors.

SPEAKER_06 59:26

We stand on the shoulders of Britney, bitch. And that is why Sabrina is so like so refined, such like a superstar. The Disney Channel Industrial Complex. She was on the three-legged stool, she was singing, dancing, acting, movies, like she was she was in there like swimwear. Anyway, I think we've painted a pretty clear picture that Brittany Spears. Yeah, oh my god, Hilary Duff, her career was the foundation for the entire early 2000s Disney Channel Industrial Complex. You heard it here first.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

And what about it?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:03

Um, I feel like we can't really answer our question for this episode because we didn't watch anything specific. Like, is it worth a rewatch?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

We didn't watch anything specific, but as someone who paved the way for a lot of other women in entertainment, is this someone that you will grip Hello? Is this someone that you will give that credit to, or will it move on to the next person?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:30

Ooh, that's interesting. No, I mean I've I've loved Hillary Duff since I was a kid. As discussed previously, I watched Cadet Kelly more times than I I can count.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

It tells me everything I need to know about you.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:48

Um, are you familiar with her project, Casper the Friendly Ghost? Kinda?

unknown 1:00:55

Wait.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:56

I don't know why. It was um, it went, it was like one of those like straight to video movies. Like it was not in theaters. We had it on DVD, and I swear I watched it every time we took a road trip when I was a kid. It was just kind of like always Wendy. Casper meets Wendy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:14

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

That was my shit.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:18

Yeah. Hilary Duff like has been like a comfort presence in my life since I was a kid. Um, I'm going to her concert this summer. She is still culturally relevant to me. I did listen to her new album and I don't, it doesn't hit like Metamorphosis hit. But let me tell you, some of those songs are catchy and they did get stuck in my head.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

I'll have to give it a listen. I won't knock it. I'll try it.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:41

How about this? Is there a project of hers that you would go back to or that you have re-watched? Would you go back and watch a Cinderella story?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Oh, yeah, 100%. See? I'm pretty sure I have it on DVD.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:53

Yeah, she's she's a cultural touchstone for our generation. She just is.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Because you just want her to succeed. That's what it is. I just want her to succeed.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:03

Hey, um, we're sorry you're not talking to your sister. Tell Susan we say hey.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Loved your sister in Napoleon Dynamite, though.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:10

Um, did you ever see Material Girls? Maybe. I know that they covered that song. Material. Yeah, um, that the cover of that song was my fourth grade jazz dance. Anyway, um, we ate down. We did a ball change, kick to the ground. Not a layout, just a batma. Kneel down. Okay. Yeah. Looks cute for fourth grade, you know? Yeah. Don't want to hurt yourself. The outfit is still in my parents' basement. It probably is about this big.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Can't wait to see that. Anyway, what do we have coming up next week? The glee pilot. Here's what you missed on. Ooh. Glee.

unknown 1:02:48

Oh god.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:50

Speaking of more stingers that are good enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

And with that, that was so rude. We'll catch you next week.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:57

But that is how I feel about Matthew Morrison.