Is there a Christian Manosphere?

Matt & Courtney discuss the Manosphere, following Louis Theroux's recent documentary. What does Christianity have to say about the growing influence of male-oriented self help that seeks to dominate women? 

Join the conversation as we continue to discuss atypical questions about God and life.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:10

Welcome back to a typical Christian podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I'm Matt. Yes, I'm Courtney, and this is a typical Christian podcast that I don't know, we discuss God and life.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Of an evening, generally in a house where our children sleep above us.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Our children sleep above us blissfully while we discuss atypical questions.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

Yep. About God and life.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

Um, I was thinking today to ask you, what do you think? It's like our 14th, 15th episode. What do you think is your favorite thing about doing a podcast like this with me?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

My favorite thing. Um, I just think it's hard for us to have conversations that are not typically surrounding our family or our house or things that are kind of administrative, life admin.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

And so I think for a while we weren't giving ourselves the time to just talk about topics that interested, interest us. And now we kind of have given us that space. Um, and I think I I like that because there's lots of stuff that I want to talk about with you and discuss. And sometimes I try and stop myself from discussing it outside of the podcast because I'm like, oh, that's that may be interesting to actually say on the podcast. Um, but I think that is kind of the dynamic we've always had, but we've just never been able to explore that because we've never given ourselves this the time to.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

I thought you were gonna say you don't like you stop yourself from discussing it because you try and discuss it so late in the night.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

That too. I have like my second wind, probably 10 o'clock at night, and then sometimes later. Sometimes later.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

And I just go on a full on rampage.

SPEAKER_05 2:10

I can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

I can't and I force myself to stop.

SPEAKER_05 2:16

Hey, um, before we get started on the episode today, we've got to pop and pop in some proverbs. Okay. So um for this week, I've chosen, I would say, one of the most topical proverbs I've heard.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Okay, the most topical? Cool.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Well, as relevant today as it was then.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Some, you know, you could debate whether they're relevant, but this one 100% ready. Proverbs 19 says, Houses and wealth are inherited from parents. Just gonna pause there for a second.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

Because that is the only way people can get a house in Sydney at this time.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

That's so true.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

Which is from inherited wealth. So I just want to say tick, well done, you've understood us. Uh, but then it continues. Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_05 3:18

Prudent? I I thought you'd ask that. Uh prudent means being wise, cautious, and sensible in practical affairs.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I mean, tick, you got that. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_05 3:32

Very wise. I feel like it goes both ways. I feel like getting a prudent and perhaps responsible, forward-thinking um spouse is good uh on both sides. You can't have just the wife being that and the man's just completely irresponsible. It's like lucky I married a Peter Pudery.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

You're off the hook.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

Yes, we can do what we want as long as we get that prudent wife.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I guess if you don't get that prudent wife, you know she's not from the Lord.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

That's true. Um, I got a good one.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

What?

SPEAKER_05 4:07

Wife. I got a good wife.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Oh, right, right, right. I thought you were gonna just say, I don't know, a good some type of saying or um, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Maybe you've you've dabbled in um in shopping, maybe at times.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Me. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

In online shopping.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Maybe just a just a little bit. A little bit, definitely didn't go too far with that.

SPEAKER_05 4:34

It comes in waves. I feel like I feel like that's reasonable. Um because sometimes we need more clothes, especially for the kids who are outgrowing stuff.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

But yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:44

But uh so yeah, so houses and wealth. Good luck getting a house without inherited wealth. Indeed. And good luck to you if you don't, if the law doesn't provide. Prudent wife. Topical.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Topical.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

That's bomb proverbs for today. Brilliant. As good as it gets.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

As good as it gets.

SPEAKER_05 5:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Alright. So tonight we're gonna talk about the manosphere.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

I didn't actually know that was the term for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Neither did I, but apparently that's what it is. I just was like, horrible men.

SPEAKER_05 5:22

I feel like if people knew that was the name, it would kind of be a turn-off.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Like, yeah, definitely manosphere.

SPEAKER_05 5:28

Getting into the manosphere. Like it sounds so um cheesy.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

It definitely sounds cheesy. I don't I don't know if they came up with that or who came up with it.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Whoever did, I feel like did them a disservice. It was themselves that really undercut themselves.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Um, but I guess I have like hyperfixated on this topic for a while. Not specifically the manosphere, because I didn't even know that existed, but just the imbalance between male and female and how that presented presents itself, like whether that's in society or within the church. I think part of why I'm frustrated with this topic of manosphere is also because I don't feel like the church gives this inequality between male and female the right amount of attention. I don't feel like there is serious seriously considered the damage that it has. It's almost it's glossed over a lot of the time, and it feels like it's a real non-issue within the church setting sometimes, or they or they feel like they have addressed it sufficiently uh through their kind of theology and teaching. But I don't think it is addressed sufficiently within a church. The toxic toxic I can't say the word toxicity, toxicity of males, and how that then comes up for females and the kind of toxic relationship that's gonna come about between males and females.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

Okay, we talked a bit about masculinity on a previous podcast. Yeah. And about how and toxic masculinity specifically, and how it doesn't really gel with our understanding of who Jesus is. I feel like he is the type of um, he has a different, um, a very different type of masculinity than was on display in this documentary that we watched. Um, but I think there's more in that documentary than just kind of, oh, it's a hypermasculine.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Well, we haven't actually told them what the documentary is. So what you what is the documentary that we watched?

SPEAKER_05 7:44

We watched uh Louis Thereu's into the manosphere, um, which essentially involves him interviewing a bunch of these male influencers who are active in the manosphere who are promoting themselves. And essentially there's like a a weird self-help kind of part of it. There's also an objectification of women part of it, or like a superiority complex part of it. There's all these elements at play, and in his typical style, he's very good at sort of pointing out maybe some contradictions within that, um, or allowing them to point it out themselves. Um, and yeah, it's it's quite it's it's quite it's it's very confronting.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, I think that before we go deep like discuss the specifics of that documentary, I think that when we look at that documentary, it's important that we also then look at it through the lens of the church and how the church is responding to this behavior because we cannot honestly say that this behavior doesn't come up within church settings, because it does. And if anybody wants to try and say it doesn't, then I mean I don't know. Uh maybe they're in a really healthy, great space, but I think if you have any amount of people in any setting and community of people, you're gonna get these types of voices coming up at some point. Do you think so?

SPEAKER_05 9:22

Yeah, I think I think the the Christian culture um has historically and still does, um, is is either adjacent to integrated with some of these ideas about about male superiority or male chip. Um and it may not be as overt as these guys, um, but I think we have to be uh as as the church, I think we have to check ourselves. Uh to we have to hold ourselves to a much higher standard than these guys have who have zero standards about what they have to do. And so um, and so knowing that that is present within the church, how how do we how do we understand our our our churches in light of this? Like how do we how do we look critically at our church? And your your sort of um you're alluding to um yeah, these these ideas of male headship that can at times be adjacent to these these um the ideas that these influences have, whether it's um polygamy which is present in the Bible to some extent um in the old testament, it's nothing really forbidding it. It's not presented as a great idea, but there's no nothing against that. Why wouldn't you? The the the um the strong patron.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Sorry, it is it is it is later not allowed.

SPEAKER_05 10:50

Not explicitly, it doesn't say you must not have multiple wives.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

No, yes, it does, because it says you should be married to one wife.

SPEAKER_05 10:59

It says, I think it says the male and women female become one flesh.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

So you think that polygamy in the New Testament is not discussed?

SPEAKER_05 11:11

I don't think it's explicitly against it. I don't think it's consistent at all with the New Testament's idea of marriage and the presentation of marriage.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I'm just saying, technically speaking, I don't think it's actually Well, I do think because he says you should be male and female are joined together and they become one flesh, you leave your family and you you join your wife's and you become a family.

SPEAKER_05 11:39

You may be right. I know in the I know when he's talking about elders, he says elders are to be the husband of one wife.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 11:47

But does that mean that everyone?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yes, that is that means everybody. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

I think that you are maybe giving a bit too much room for flexibility in being like, well, he doesn't verbatim say one man, one wife.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Like he doesn't I think that there's enough.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

That's fair. So let's say that in the Old Testament it's more it's common. And it's not expressly forbidden, but in the New Testament it it trends away from that.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, but I think a lot of things were not expressly forbidden, but that doesn't mean that it was not considered bad.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

Okay, but it like it's um what I'm trying to say is it's Christian adjacent in that in the Old Testament. Uh, there's examples of that. And I know that um some churches practice that.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

I don't know, I don't know if we can say it's Christian adjacent. I think that within the times that was commonly practiced. I don't think that that was something that God desired for his creation. I agree, and so therefore, I don't think we can say it's Christian adjacent. I just think Christians happened to decide that they wanted to do that, whether that was right or wrong.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Because the Christian Israelites decided they wanted to do a lot of things that was not great.

SPEAKER_05 13:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

And there was a lot of times that God rebuked them for that. Uh okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:17

Well, look, putting that putting that aside, what like and getting back to, I guess, what um what you understand as the elements of this type of culture within Christianity, what how would you kind of what are some areas?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Well, I'm not really I'm I'm not necessarily talking about us trying to find out the elements per se. My issue is that we don't have meaningful discussions within our church about the prevalence of this mentality, about this mentality about men and women and the quality between the two. And I think a lot of the times you come into the church context and you want to discuss equality between man and women, and it's mostly dismissed by saying, well, we hold a complementarian view where we believe that male and female are equal but hold different roles. I mean, I think that I don't necessarily think that actually is a right depiction of equality, and I don't think they can call that equality because the types of roles that they distribute are not equal in um not equal, and also they are not considerate of either the gifting of one person, uh a female, or the gifting of a male, it becomes more stereotyped about their sex, and then therefore that's the type of gifting they're able to display, or that's the distribution of how people can kind of serve God uh based on their gender. So I don't think that the the the saying that a complementarian view is representative of equality is right.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

And I think um, and you know, there's lots of churches, there's lots of churches, you know, there's lots of churches around, some may be um egalitarian, some may be complementarian. I think our experience has been complementarian generally, and um I think what what has, and to your point, what's been most striking to me is um thinking about Paul's own words to say that there is neither uh Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free, all are one in Christ Jesus, and that is to say spiritually um there is true equality, and I think that is something that Christianity offers that um or should offer that should set it apart from the world, exactly and the world at the time as well, um, which was in which uh featured incredible inequality, much uh much greater inequality um at that time. And uh Jesus was one of the most progressive, like he was the one that's breaking down these barriers of of inequality. And I think we still have that gift and that charge to do it. There are passages in the New Testament that people point to that they might struggle with that contradiction. Uh, and I think, however, that looking at this cultural movement of the manosphere is or should be seen as a bit of a warning to Christians to deal with the perceived inequality uh from women, but also uh a sense of entitlement or superiority from men on on both sides of the spectrum. And you can see that play out in the minds of these influencers and the people that subscribe to them.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yes, that's right. They're I think that is what we are lacking within our Christian community of people saying, actually, this is a really dangerous way of thinking. And to try and say that while we don't prescribe to that, we would never prescribe to that way of thinking, and we would never promote that way of thinking within the church. Yes, you might not promote that way of thinking directly, but there certainly are indirect ways that that way of thinking is promoted. And so indirectly, we kind of give license to having those thoughts and feelings towards women and the the position that men should hold within a household or within a within within leadership. Uh and you're like you said, Christianity actually gives us license to provide equality amongst men and women, and it really should be setting us apart, but it's not at this point. People look at Christianity and say that religion is marked by the patriarchy, that religion is literally a it's it's bleeding the patriarchal system and it's supporting it to thrive. Because anyone that looks at it and looks at how people are responding to biblical passages and and how they're interpreting biblical passages is definitely with a patriarchal view in mind. And and so, and then people would, I mean, people would find that offensive, me saying that, and people would probably become defensive about it and say that is not a patriarchal view, that is the view of the Bible, and the Bible has placed men as the head and placed the the women under men. Uh, and I think that the only thing I can say about that specifically is that that is specifically within the marriage context. And if we are prepared to apply biblical teachings about marriage with a married couple to then the whole of our society, married or not married, then I think that we're not actually applying the texts well and realistically. We are applying blanket rules for everyone to be under, and those are not intended by those passages. They were speaking specifically to people in certain situations. Uh and so, yeah, I think that if we are not prepared to look at those verses and say, has Christianity taken a patriarchal skew on them and critically evaluate if we've actually done that?

SPEAKER_05 20:25

I mean, it's it's it's uh it's quite a confronting one because there are passages that say wives submit to your husbands. Now it also says husbands submit to your wives.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

It says submit to one another.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

It begins with that, and for some reason we want to forget about it. It's like so coming. I think that's the thing. It's like we just take little tiny pieces and we hold on to them so tightly. And I understand why we hold on to them so tightly, because honestly, it's easier. Who wants to break a whole system of living?

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Nobody.

SPEAKER_05 21:01

I'll just this is word for word. It's easy. Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Exactly. No one's gonna try, no one wants to upend a whole system of society that we've built from like 12,000 years ago. No, not yeah, 12,000 years ago, apparently.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

That's oddly precise. What did you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, it's because I looked this up so because I became so, I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_05 21:25

What was happening?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

This is where my brain went. People say there's this uh this people are like, the patriarchy is a system. I'm like, okay, the patriarchy is a system, but someone invented this system. The system just did not build itself, it came from somewhere, right? Not maybe it did.

SPEAKER_05 21:44

You have to convince me. I haven't heard about what happened.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Here we go. So during the Neolithic revolution, there There was the birth of agriculture. And this literally changed a lot for society.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

So because there was this birth of agriculture, it meant that people were starting to labor and they started to actually create property, farmlands, etc. Now. I was like, what does that matter? Why does that matter? Why does it matter that now we have farmlands and all of a sudden the men are the owners of this property? Women have to give birth to children. We have procreation is still happening. So a large portion of women's time is spent nurturing kids, taking care of them, right?

SPEAKER_05 22:40

Hard to push a plow when you're pregnant.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Hard to push a plow when you're pregnant. So there was not enough consistency for women to be able to devote themselves to agricultural practices.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Whereas for a man, he could devote his whole time to the agricultural practices.

SPEAKER_05 22:55

It really is a consistency based. It was a consistency problem. You've got to plant the seed, you've got to milk the cows, whatever it is. It's like it's a daily.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yes, you have to be there. You have to be able to accommodate. And we'd not have modern medicine or anything modern to be able to accommodate a woman to also be able to use and perform those duties, right? So immediately because of that, purely because they were not able to be available, they were pushed out, and men took advantage of that and therefore said, Well, seeing that we are able to be here, let's now make sure that we're the owners of property. And from there, we then started to build jumpers. I don't know if they felt that. I think they're just more like, well, this is an advantage. Right. Yeah. Well, they're opportunity. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't think it happens.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

Sneaky, sneaky farmers.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Farmers.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

12,000 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

But then could the government like think obviously governments were like, well, this also makes it easier for easier for us to actually like manage our people.

SPEAKER_05 24:13

You heard one of those guys on the manosphere. He was like, look around. Have you ever seen anything that a woman is engineered? Like, I know many women engineers.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Oh my god. And then a women's build.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

There's so many women in building. Not enough, but there's a let me just name a few of the women that I was just, I was just like, this guy is an idiot.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

For example, Rosalind Franklin. She was made a critical discovery in the structure of DNA. That's vital. Okay? Flip and vital to the human race, understanding DNA.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Because without it, you wouldn't understand how we're formed. You also wouldn't be able to get cures for diseases. That's right. So Rosalind, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Thanks, Rosalind.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Maybe she didn't create a building, but she created something far better than that.

SPEAKER_05 25:04

I work in the construction industry. My industry is littered with incredibly competent women. And so it was just very laughable and obviously untrue when you say like no woman has ever contributed to this. Like what other people touches no woman has made. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Um but sorry, what I'm trying to put, I don't know where. Oh, that's what I was saying. The patriarchy was just it didn't just birth itself from nowhere, it created itself. And so to say that it's a system that then is controlled by somebody, if we're looking at this critically, the patriarchy is a system that benefits men and men recognize that and then use that to their advantage.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

So irrespective of it being a system or not being a system, men have seen the opportunity, taken it, and they're not willing to change it because it's benefiting them too much.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

So when when like um you know maybe advocates for um for reform in that way would say down with the patriarchy, for example, uh, I think the easiest, I think the the m um some people incorrectly see that as people saying down with men.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Or like um, you know, let's let's kind of topple men down and put women on top.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Which I think is um is not what that means.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

No.

SPEAKER_05 26:42

Uh I think it is trying to account for the already existing power structures that enable um that enable men to dictate the terms of society generally. Exactly. Um, but I do think that this manosphere documentary feels like a response to people, a response of people thinking that everyone hates us. Everyone's trying to just like put us in the dirt for no reason. Like I didn't, I didn't do the pay, I didn't create the patriarchy. Um like why are you hating me for being a man for no other reason? Um and feeling um like this, feeling disenfranchised or feeling isolated or attacked, um maybe with without um without the empathy or perhaps maturity to kind of go, yeah, I can look outside myself to the history of how this society and patriarchy generally has been propagated and the effect of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

How do I self-correct and how do I be part of um something that can it can really um be sensitive towards and encourage um equality between men and women, true equality, as as the Bible teaches, as the Bible teaches, and I think I don't I think that it's also interesting in that documentary the men are saying that they are themselves victims of the patriarchy, and I mean I can see that I can see how men are victims as well of the patriarchy. Uh and then but I think they kind of say they're the they're they are the true victims of the patriarchy to the point that they're in the matrix and they're free in themselves from the matrix. Well, I think they just literally gave the patriarchy another name that they called matrix. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

I don't know if it's because they wanted to say like the system's against me, therefore I have to beat the system, and it gives them a sense of inflated. Like, I I wasn't sure, I didn't quite get it what the whole matrix was was about.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Well, I think, yeah. I mean, I can see I can see how men can become victims of the system that was set up set up for them, but that might also be because we're in this world where uh where even the systems that they built to make them prosper are no longer working, uh working for society. And I think that's probably due to a lot of reasons, also specifically that women are more educated, that women are no longer needing to rely on a male to support them in life, there's a level of independence and women have choices. And so whilst there is, whilst this system still remains, there was a certain amount of pushback that women were able to leverage to create a level of independency that now the system doesn't really work as well for men. There's some kinks and there are some obstacles that they need to go through to actually get what they normally would have gotten so easily. And then because of all of that, it's kind of like in their eyes, well, this is not actually working out for me. Women are not just wanting to be told what to do all the time, women are not wanting to be in abusive relationships, women are not wanting to kids and have five of them at a time. And why aren't they not wanting the choices that I want? And so we can't we then we then then they have to say, well, actually, we're victims of the big drug, it's not working anymore. It's not working for us.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Right. Yeah, it's such a self-worship, isn't it? It's like I don't feel that my needs are able to be met in this progressive society. Therefore, I'm not happy about this. Why is my dad with the women now? Yeah, well, therefore, that's why that's why women were created to attend to my need. That is it.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

So it's just it's a it's a self-worship and an objectification of women, their only existence is for me and whatever I'm yeah, and I think Thorall tried to give us some empathy for these men because we kind of all we saw a pattern amongst them all, they all came from broken homes where they didn't have male uh role models in their lives, they didn't have um any kind of father figure or fathers present, and there was a great deal of dysfunction when they were growing up, and then that dysfunction kind of bred into um this manosphere.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Yeah. And I think I think there's also brokenness in the people that are subscribing as well, whether I mean there is an epidemic. I don't know if everything is the right word, but there there is a lot of loneliness in our society, and there is a lot of loneliness among young men, and that's not that's not invented. That's not something that's a figment of imagination or um or uh you know a fact that's been invented to to to attack men. Um there's plenty of loneliness in women as well. Um so on on both sides, people um both sides kind of consumer and influencer, there's a need there that Jesus can definitely um uh can fulfil. Um it cannot be fulfilled by I think for the case of the influencers, this almost predatory need to be kind of uh inflated or puffed up by these followers um or by the perceived kind of attention from women. And for the consumer, the need being filled by the wanting to be a part of something, um, to feel to not feel alone, to feel as though there is hope and there's something that they can do to achieve um to achieve something better. Yeah. And there's a lot of there's a lot of real like seeds of what of of what the gospel can do in people's lives.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 33:54

Um, but it's just such a uh such a broken and and in and heartbreaking um kind of circular system of these of of this um social media culture.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, and Jesus frees us from these unrealistic expectation that the world wants to push onto males and females, and he deliver us, he delivers us from that by saying my burden is light, my yoke is easy, resting me. And we are so caught up in trying to strive for a life that he doesn't call us to try and strive towards that we start believing that this is what makes our lives important, whether for in these men's case, the amount of money that they are con that they are hoarding, or the amount of women that they have in their lives. And then for for women, they are looking at these situations and thinking, well, the thing that's gonna kind of give me my meaning of success is how far I can push back on these things, these ideologies, which is not wrong in itself, but I mean, that's not what we were all we weren't designed to also be in opposition to the opposite sex our whole lives either. And then the other fall of the trap, the other trap women fall into is feeling like, yeah, believe in the lie that, yeah, maybe that is my life. I should just be making babies and being at home and not really striving towards something that I that I desire or have a passion for. And Jesus comes along and he meets these people that have been marginalized and oppressed and looked down on because of the life choices that they've made, uh, that have been in opposition to, I suppose, the patriarchy. And he says, Come, come to me. I I'm I'm I'm here to rid you of feeling these heavy burdens of what this society is trying to tell you that's important. And I feel like for both men and women in the church, we have become so tunnel-visioned on our own ideologies of what how what life should look like that we can't even receive the basic freedom that Christ has given us through his death. We are more far more concerned about whether we're performing the right roles.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

I think the way in which we as Christians, brothers and sisters, married or not married, spur one another on to be more like Jesus, to love one another deeply, to care for the world, to make disciples, these are all holy callings. People have incredible um powerful callings from God upon their life, and God put men and women there to help each other to bring God glory. And the more that um these partnerships that are equal are allowed to do their work, I think uh not only not only does it respond to the inequity and the oppression that has taken place over generations, which Jesus is vehemently against people who are oppressed and any systems of oppression. Not only does it achieve his purposes in the world, it makes Jesus' name great and it enables us to actually participate in enables us to participate in the kingdom of God in a way that truly brings glory to him and actually makes sense of the spiritual reality of our equity under Christ at the foot of the cross.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yeah, because if we're not prepared to see that Jesus was fighting for fighting for something that we didn't deserve in the first place, or for not even fighting, I suppose, Jesus sacrificed his life for something that we didn't deserve in the first place so that we could be free, then we've kind of lost sight of the gospel message at that point.

SPEAKER_05 39:10

It's a powerful conversation. I think I saw some criticisms of it that sort of it gave more it gave more of a mouthpiece to the influencers than the people who are being taken advantage of. But I think it did so in a way to expose the expose the contradiction at the heart of it, which is these men um project something that is not real. They are just essentially um they're playing a character to make money. Um and they themselves, one of the men had a wife and kids, one of the men had like a mum that cares for him and these women in their life that they supposedly don't need or can order about. Putting those contradictions and those failures on display is something that that documentary did well, and I think it's something that the church can do well as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah, I mean I think I think it's almost laughable that the church thinks that they've their work is done when it comes to this.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Maybe not every church is, every church. But a lot of, yeah, but a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

But a lot. So uh like I I can't even fathom how men who have been accused of abuse or charged with abuse and alike are still listened to, still uh given platforms within Christian spaces, despite their abhorrent disobedience to God's word and without remorse. And so that alone tells me that the church doesn't take women's issues seriously. Because why I was saying I think I was saying this to you the other day, I was like, we people there's been this running commentary about what's what does um what does Shila Bath, uh Jonathan Major, and another pastor, this other pastor as well, I can't remember his name, what do they all have in common? Well, they all have in common essentially that they have been accused of sexual abuse or harassment alike or domestic violence. So they've all been accused of those things. Uh, but the other thing that they'll also have in common is that they have recently, they have recently converted to Christianity or they are Christians.

SPEAKER_05 42:16

They're other majors as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yes. And so these conversions, though, have acquitted them of any accountability for their actions and their actions specifically against women. You the reason why I say the church does not hold women's issues like there's they don't actually have any sorry, they don't they don't think women issues are important is because when these men do these things, there's they don't they don't speak up against it. They're not saying those actions that they have committed is wrong, those actions that they are doing is actually really hurtful and damaging to women. It's a more they're more focused on the fact that they have converted to Christianity.

SPEAKER_05 43:09

And I remember in the podcast about the rise and fall of Mars Hill as well, that it was almost like if there was a if if there was a case of adultery, let's say, the the man goes to the the elders and they'll say, Okay, like you can find forgiveness here, uh, and the onus is just placed on the on the woman to forgive. And it's sort of like, well, that's okay because um Jesus welcomes the broken with open arms and Jesus forgives. Those things are both true. Yes. But the um the failure to account for um The failure to account for the real consequences of these actions and to deal with them with the seriousness that they deserve and to also be sensitive and empowering unto the women's the woman's voice in this, who's like reflect a failure of the church.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yes. It is a failure of the church. And that's why I'm saying like if the church cannot critically look at themselves and say they actually don't take women's issues seriously, and a women's issue right now that they need to be taken seriously is these hateful, damaging, destructive messages that the these misogynists are spreading and giving kind of fuel to, not only within the wider, kind of broader society, but then also within church communities. And so when men abuse women and the church stays silent on that, and there is no real rebuke for that abuse that is against women, you're indirectly saying it's not that important. And this this surprise, and I know this surprised you because I shared this with you about John Piper and his view on domestic violence. He said when he was asked about domestic abuse, his words were simply hurting her. Sorry, said that if her husband is simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smacked one night and then she seeks help from the church. Now I know that he had some clarifying words subsequently, but the clarifying words doesn't actually justify the words that he spoke initially. And putting aside kind of breaking down what he said and how it's wrong, the main thing that I kind of want to point out is that it giving a message that the church doesn't think that women's issues, women's well-being is important.

SPEAKER_05 46:28

Women's struggles.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Women's struggles are important. It's the the the importance laid on it is quite minimal and dismissive. And then to kind of add the cherry on the top, discerning God, which is another desiring God. Sorry, desiring God, which is I guess another Christian organization.

SPEAKER_05 46:55

It's uh John Piper's, I think. Oh, John Piper's. I think it's church, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Oh, okay, there you go. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_05 47:01

Well, it's like the it's John Piper's kind of website and disseminating of his sermons and whatever. It's like a website that couldn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

And they then did a a follow-up underneath that.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

And said, What can a wife do if she finds herself married to a harsh man? Pray earnestly for him. Seek to win him with gentleness, share the burden wisely with others, distinguish sin from personality, approach him with hope. And again, I read that and say that they are dismissing what women are feeling, what they're going through, and trying to minimize her pain and suffering.

SPEAKER_05 47:51

And in in both an emotional sense and physically, uh, sorry, in it minimize her pain and suffering in an emotional sense, but in but somehow prolong her pain and suffering in a physical sense. Um as a way, I don't know if it's I I cannot think of a single justification for that.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

And that and there's no justification for it other than the fact that they don't believe that that we we truly are in a in a world where the church has prescribed to at least a certain degree to a patriarchal system and have said that that is okay and it actually is working for us.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

Yeah, well, like, but biblically even, like, where's the where where is there any justification for this in any way, form, shape, other than they may say that the man is the head of the household and she should submit to her husband. Okay, but he's not he's not living up to that in any way.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Why should what oh no, I and I agree, because what the the call on the man is to love his wife as as Christ loves the church. That's the call onto the man. So well, they're definitely not living up to that call. Um and and I think that I think part of that is they want to deal with these situations within the church community, they want to deal with potentially abusive sin within the church community.

SPEAKER_05 49:26

Yeah, how's that worked out for the church?

SPEAKER_00 49:28

It's worked terribly, and how and and how many how many abusive men and potentially also women have the church covered up or um protected. Protected out of out of out of I'm not even sure why they've covered that up, but more maybe because that person has shown remorse for their sin, they said they want to turn away from their sin, etc. etc. And I understand that, but that doesn't disqualify you from also receiving the consequences for your sin. Uh, because there are real true consequences for your sin, and most of the time those consequences of your sin are experienced by other people and not the actual person sinning.

SPEAKER_05 50:21

I think the church needs to recognize the seriousness of the consequences of sin for both the people perpetrating the sin and receiving and and who are the victims of the sin. And to your point, I don't think it has done anywhere near enough to recognize the her the harm that it is that it is um party to but also to change and to grow and to make to make it a priority to um to protect the vulnerable in a way that it has failed to do. I feel like there's a lot more to talk about in this arena, in this sphere, in this uh this area. Uh we you know we were really prompted by this Manosphere documentary, but um Yeah, I appreciate you being here for this chat. We really hope to um to encourage people and to to keep the conversation going. So thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Thanks. Good night.