Ep.14 Beyond the Checklist: Rethinking Service, Purpose, and Connection in Education

In this episode of The Outdoor Education Podcast, Rob Carmichael sits down with Heidi Oxley, Community Engagement and CAS Coordinator at UWC Thailand, to explore what meaningful service really looks like in schools today.

With nearly 30 years of experience in international education across the UK, Africa, Asia, and the US, Heidi shares how her journey, from physical education to global citizenship leadership, has shaped her belief that true impact comes from relationships, not checklists.

Together, they unpack the shift from “service” to community engagement, challenging traditional models that focus on charity and instead highlighting approaches rooted in reciprocity, humility, and long-term partnerships.

Heidi also shares powerful, real-world examples, from local dog shelters to indigenous communities, showing how sustained, student-led engagement can create genuine impact for both students and communities.

 In this episode, you’ll learn:

•  Why “service learning” can reinforce harmful power dynamics 
•  The difference between helping others and learning with communities 
•  How CAS can move beyond a tick-box exercise 
•  The importance of reflection, systems thinking, and consistency 
•  Practical strategies for building authentic community partnerships 
•  How outdoor education and community engagement intersect 

Whether you’re an IB educator, CAS coordinator, or outdoor learning practitioner, this conversation offers practical insights and a compelling vision for education that develops empathy, agency, and real-world understanding.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast. Honest conversations about nature, learning, and leadership. We explore stories from the field that remind us why outdoor and experiential education matters now more than ever. Hi everyone, my name is Rob Kermichael, and welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast. Today I'm joined by Heidi Oxley Whitnell, Community Engagement and Cast Coordinator at UWC Thailand. Heidi has spent almost 30 years working in international schools around the world, including roles in New York, Manila, and Mombasa, before joining UWC Thailand in 2015. Her background in physical education, student life, and global citizenship gives her a unique perspective on how service, well-being, and outdoor learning intersect. She also supports CAS coordinators globally through professional development and mentorship, helping educators design programs that move beyond checklists to build authentic, sustainable relationships with their communities through her project Cass Connected. In this conversation, we'll explore what meaningful service looks like in practice, how to help students find purpose through challenge, and why reflection and connection are at the heart of experiential learning. Heidi, it's great to have you here. Welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Thank you, Rob. It's not like we don't spend enough time together.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yes, exactly. So for our listeners, Heidi and I share an office with one another. And what's one of the best things, probably, at working at UWC Thailand, is that there are so many world-class professionals there. And that absolutely includes Heidi. The breadth of experience and quality that we have on staff is simply incredible, which is why there will be a theme running through the podcast where I get my colleagues to pop on because they're genuinely doing world-class programming. So, Heidi, as now that I bigged you up enough, would you mind just telling us a little bit about your journey into international education? And obviously, this uh episode of the Outdoor Education podcast is going to look a little bit more at service and community engagement than it is traditional or the typical kind of outdoor education uh conversation. I know you've done a lot in that anyway, but if you could just start by telling us a little bit about your journey, where it began, and what kind of led you to this point.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Well, thanks, Rob. Um, it all started off at Bedford College, a place that you know very well. So Rob and I actually went to the same university, uh, decades apart, might I add. And, you know, uh fantastic university, fantastic four years doing a physical education degree with some um definite areas of outdoor education that was very ingrained into what we were doing. Um, that led to a phenomenal first job. I am so blessed in being appointed at Hintchingbrook School in Huntingdon. Um we had a lake, so we would windsurf and kayak, we had a national park, so there was orienteering trails, um, we had a small climbing wall, so you know it was a phenomenal school, but you know, life sometimes throws you a curveball. And at that time, I thought, you know what, it's time to leave the UK and just look out for something different. And I was uh appointed to go to um Zambia, so that was my very first international posting. Didn't quite actually make it to Zambia. Um, fortunately, the Zambian government uh decided to change their rules and regulations. So I was stranded on the Zimbabwe-Zambian um border, and I spent pretty much uh a year there working for a houseboat company providing uh safaris and houseboat tours, um, and then on to Egypt, and as you mentioned before, the Philippines and New York and Mombasa and Thailand. So, yeah, life throws you a curveball, then you've just got to give it a go, try something new. And international teaching was that opportunity and never look back. It's been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

That's amazing, Heidi. Uh, and you've worn so many hats in each of those roles from PE teacher, you were a vice principal, you've been the community engagement lead and cast coordinator. Is there any single thread that connects all of those roles for you? And what is it that you really prioritize whenever you come into a new position?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, I think it's just been that human connection, you know, leading teams, working alongside community partners. And the focus has always been that sort of relationship building. So, as I said before, I was a P teacher and working with groups of students, building teams, coaching them. Um, it's really getting them to realize their potential through collaboration and shared purpose. And there's that natural synergy, you know, whether you're a team sports person or you are actually working alongside a community partner. So connections, teamwork, uh relationships, helping people realize their potential through collaboration and shared goals. And I think empathy and the agency, empathy and agency. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

That's amazing. And Heidi, when you think back over your career, were there any specific moments or mentors that have shaped your view of kind of education and purpose and maybe helped you create that passion for community engagement? And I know that you're filled with the passion for community engagement because I share an office with you and I get to see that coming through uh on a daily basis. But when you think back over your career, what are the things that kind of stand out, or maybe even the people that stand out?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think I've really had that mentor or role model specifically. I had more had the doubters and the questioners, especially throughout university and in um some very early days at university told uh, you know, maybe I should rethink what I'm doing. I'm not good enough. Um, and I think that doubt has really sort of driven a sense of purpose. That's probably why I do so much and still, you know, need that internal validation that I'm doing okay. And I think it's maybe the people who've just given random acts of chimers, the small things that have helped generate, you know, that desire and and and that purpose. And you know, like you, Rob, at the end of the day, it's the students who've been the the the biggest teachers, the greatest teachers, you know, their courage, um their curiosity, their courage, um, their willing to reflect and and again, like me, just be told, you know, that you you can do it, go for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Heidi, it's such a fantastic point. You know, sometimes it's the people that uh our biggest critics that actually end up galvanizing our purpose more than anyone else. I see, and how you act on a daily basis and how you show up, not just for the students, but also the staff in our school, and you act as that voice of support that maybe you didn't get in your your early career, and I can attest to that. You have certainly supported me whenever I first arrived at UWC Thailand, and actually probably support me every day, unfortunately for you. Uh, but you're actually extending out and doing more than helping support the people in our current workplace. You've branched out and have started a bit of a mentorship program as well through your uh company, Cass Connected. Do you want to just talk a little bit about what you're doing at Cass Connected and how you see the role of mentorship?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, um, I think this has all been driven because, you know, coming into the IB program, coming into CAS, there are various courses you can do. You get a you get a handbook. Um, but the handbooks don't fill in the gaps.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

And maybe, and maybe for our listeners who are not familiar with the International Baccalaureate, which is the IB program, and certainly something that we've referenced here as well. Maybe before we talk about CAS Connected, it would be a good idea to give us a kind of heads up and a quick overview of what CAS is for those that work outside of the IB program.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Um, so CAS is an 18-month program um which is available to the diploma students starting in grade 11, 12 or their last two years of school. Um, they have learning outcomes that they have to specifically address and reflect on um through creativity, activity and service. So it's a really holistic program, giving students the opportunity for them to explore different ideas and passions outside of their curriculum, but also make real tangible connections within their curriculum. So, again, really bringing, you know, we talk about experiential learning all the time. So, really giving them the opportunity of taking skills and knowledge and applying it to real world situations.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

That's that's amazing. Thank you for filling in those gaps. It's something that I'm keenly aware of that, you know, through the process of hosting this podcast, sometimes we'll talk about these different uh phrases, different words and acronyms that many of our listeners might not be familiar with. So it's always good to take a pause and just cover that for anybody that may be unfamiliar. So, Heidi, with that in mind, now we know that CAS is creativity, activity, and service delivered to those uh final two years of school. What is the role then that you're providing as a as a mentor and a guide through your uh CAS Connected? And maybe you could describe a little bit about the work that you're doing there. That would be great.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, so Cass Connected, as I said before, is really trying to fill in the gaps where the handbooks and online forums don't necessarily address. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm talking a lot with members of staff or new CAS coordinators who have been in employed, enrolled into the job and often don't really know where to start. I mean, there's a lot of institutional and local knowledge that is needed. So when people come into the job role or the school is just starting up the IB program, um, they don't really know where to start. You know, the the course, the the IB courses are fantastic and they sort of have a look at the pedagogy behind, you know, um the IB program, but doesn't always give you practical advice and how to help and support students over the 18 months. So I help brainstorm. I, you know, we'll sit down, we'll have a look at the local context the school is in, how many students they've got, um, how they can find time to make these meaningful connections within the IB program, finding the time to teach the skills and knowledge they need. I think, you know, I think Rob, you're acutely aware that when we ask students to reflect, sometimes they don't really know what to say or really what is reflection, how do I reflect? So we look at different um educational models for reflection. Uh, we look at what makes a good CAS program, um, what opportunities can we provide students in their context, and just really sort of mentoring the CAS coordinators or the advisors through a monthly program. So by the end of the end of nine months, they've actually got a two-year program. Um, so they know what to be helping and supporting their grade 11s and then their grade 12s. You know, is it's highly rewarding, you know, just to brainstorm to share ideas and for them to really think about, you know, how they can make a program that the students want to do. I think for many years CAS has been seen as a tick box exercise and maybe leadership and teachers and even parents haven't valued it. So it's really focused on how can you bring purpose and value to everybody involved.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

I know sharing an office with you again, and not to highlight it any more than we already have, that that idea of experiential learning is really key in everything that we do. And I think as you know, we look towards where the future is going, where the future of education is going, the impact of AI, that there is no situation that we can look at in the future where experiential learning does not play a bigger part. And CAS is a huge part of that. And I think for anybody who's maybe an outdoor educator within a school or who works within experiential learning, having a good point of contact with the CAS coordinator if you do run the international baccalaureate is a really, really key point because it provides a really good access point to students and how we can help support them through outdoor education, through experiential learning. And that takes on the the dynamic of hands-on learning, outdoor education, uh hard skill learning, community engagement, and actually and and service. And actually, this may be a really good point for us to shoot off to next, Heidi, is that there's this idea of terms and terminology, and we've already addressed it with things like CAS. The CAS stands for creativity, activity and service. But the IB, and that's an IB framework, but the IB have at the same point in time changed service to mean community engagement. So that there's a bit of a hangover in terms of we're still talking about uh creativity, activity, and service, but we're now supposed to call service community engagement. Can you maybe talk us through some of those terms and uh dig into a little bit more the details about what meaningful community engagement is?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah, well let's go backtrack a little bit and just think about you know, you you mentioned the the change of terminology and understanding across the world. And I think it's an opportunity here to talk about how we are how we're reframing the word service. You know, there's loads of connotations about you know a charity or a hierarchy where one group serves another. And you know, I think it sometimes unintentionally um reinforces a power imbalance or dependency, and I think service also refers to maybe some religious connotations or volunteerism, like doing good, like it's a moral obligation. So I think you know, we should be looking at sort of the mutual growth that it brings. And I think you know, there's loads of colonial frameworks where you know service even evokes memories of that servitude. So I think there's you know, the IB is really working and understanding the sensitivity of certain words, so recognizing these complexities. The IB now has, you know, uh calling the phrase of community engagement, so really emphasizing the partnership, the reciprocity, you know, shared purpose, you know, the engagement is not about helping others, it's more about learning with each other, you know. So how is that reciprocity happening and you know, understanding it's not a solitary act or experience? It is, you know, over a longer period of time and being culturally mindful in our language and our our approach.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

So, with that then, Heidi, how do you help students move from doing good to actually understanding and learning from the communities where they're in their act of community engagement? How do you try to help flip that mindset?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

I'm glad that you say how do I help? Because I think for many of our students, it doesn't happen over the two years of the IB program. You know, there will be a handful of students that that penny drops once they're in university and they're really starting to understand. And, you know, for the listeners out there, it's not easy. It does take hard work, it takes consistent time and you know, turning up with lessons that are well prepared that give us the opportunity to explore and understand. You know, when we've been talking about moving from service to community engagement, what does that mean? What does that look like? Breaking down um structures and systems, slowing it right down so students can go in with a foundation of knowledge and understanding, not making assumptions and also understanding, you know, charity. You know, there's a value for charity, but you know, if we're constantly doing charitable actions, are we able to address you know the social injustice that might be out there? So providing framework, getting the students to, you know, really dissect what we're doing. So we're using compass models. So, you know, um the compass program provides you know excellent models for us to use as educators. Um, you know, there's Harvard thinking programs. I mean, there's so many different opportunities to be really quite creative, but I think it's you know, slowing down and understanding root causes.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I know you're a big fan of that idea of systems thinking, and this is something that we talk a lot about in the office and in some of the classrooms that that we co-teach and work together on is that idea of getting the kids to think about uh simple problems, simple solution to actually, okay, is this problem more complex? And and what do we need to think about around that? Now, that's not to say that there's not value in simple solutions, and sometimes even complex problems can be solved by you know simple solutions, but getting them to think beyond that kind of 2D framework can be interesting as well. Heidi, are there any misconceptions that schools or organizations might have about cast or service learning or community engagement?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

There are loads of misconceptions. And I think what's really great is I am now just starting to see positive change. You know, the work through CAS Connected work through all of these different schools. You know, the fact that people are reaching out means that they understand that the program needs to get better. You know, they're understanding that you know CAS is not an optional extra, it's not extra work, it's not volunteering, you know, it is a whole framework of character development, leadership, global citizenship. You know, universities are wanting this. These are the opportunities that AI, as you mentioned before, you know, um AI cannot reproduce, you know, the human interaction or the interaction with with nature. So I think that, you know, for schools to understand that the character building and the frameworks that CAS provides um is very unique, the opportunities for experiential learning, you know, trying and testing things they've learned in the classroom, you know, out there in the real world. But it can be confronting. It's not easy. And, you know, I think that it, you know, it's hard when students challenge themselves or you know, have to address their own personal biases or you know, power dynamics or the privilege that they're in. So I think that those misconceptions are are being addressed, but it it's definitely a you know, a framework for for schools to to build upon and for them to really provide an opportunity for a deep reflection of how how we can help and support the world that the students are going into over the next you know five years, 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

100%. And one of the areas that I know that we're very much aligned on is that idea of consistent repeated exposure, whether that's to outdoor environments or if it's talking about community engagement and service, it is about consistency and continually showing up in that place. And much the way that I am quite critical about the impact of an outdoor learning program being solely on the expedition phase or the week without walls, I think that's great. And and listeners to the show may have heard me talk about before. I compare a five-day week without walls program to having a sports day and say that you have a PE program. You know, it's it's a one off event. It it has benefits, but they can be limited if it is only sat in that one off event. And that's much the way that we talk in the office about community engagement as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Well, absolutely. And I, you know, I think. The power of our office, you know, is that we are we do have that alignment and we are consistent. And if students can't find me and they see you, they may ask the same question and they will get the same answer because we are so aligned. And I think that's you know, that pedagogical alignment that we both come into the school with, but you know, we also align it with our mission and values that we're striving for. So, you know, with your analogy, when you talk about, you know, your sports days and your one week without walls, it's the same when I'm hearing about schools that encourage the the one-off events. And and please, there's fantastic opportunity to help and support with one-off events, but it shouldn't be the the measure of a successful program by any means.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

100%. And and here, Heidi, we've offered a few critical perspectives and a few ideas we're talking around the project uh and that of uh community engagement and and also experiential learning. But are there any examples of a project or partnership that you've worked with personally that really captures what authentic community engagement can be?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Oh, good question. You know, we've been running this program 10 years, and are we super effective in all the areas? No, we're still growing. But I think I can give probably two examples. Um, we work with a local um dog shelter called Bodhydogs, and we have students who go in every week and and support, and sometimes they they question how effective they are. And I'm like, well, you know, we've got members of Bodie Dogs who are there eight hours a day, every single day, and you give them respite. When you go there on a Saturday, you help the cleaning, you are grooming, you know, maybe 20 dogs, whereas they may be only able to do maybe two dogs during a day because they've got all the other roles of responsibility that they have to fulfill. They'll walk the dogs, they're as I say, they groom, they wash, they clean, you know, and they just sit and cuddle and talk and just have that moment of you know emotional connection with the dog that you know the the workers at Bodie Dogs can't do. You know, so when we have those conversations with the students, they start to think, oh yeah, I am making a difference, albeit for a few hours, but they're consistently turning up every week. Now that's led on to our grade fives being really interested in um Bodie Dogs. And last year they did uh puppy daycare or doggy daycare, where they had a dog in school from Bodie Dogs every week, sorry, every day, and they looked after him and ultimately got the first dog adopted through their awareness campaign. Then they got the next dog and got that one adopted. So I think they got three dogs adopted. And Rob, you've got Charlie from Bodie Dogs, who's our fantastic uh therapy dog, and you know, you know the benefits of you know that relationship between person and dog.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Heidi, you are way too humble for the work that you do. The impact that you have in our school as a whole and the people beyond it is just incredible. And to kind of lead on to what you were saying about the dog adoption agency, those dogs that came in, the the three that were adopted towards the tail end of last year, pardon the pun, was uh an excellent program. The grade fives were super engaged, and over the pa the the course of like four or five weeks to get three dogs adopted. And what is the job of any, you know, uh dog shelter, if not to get dogs adopted? It was because of the work that I saw our school doing, the the engagement and the connection with booty dogs in the first place that I took a visit there, and I took a visit with my son, and we went a few times and made a really close connection with a dog there, Charlie. And we ended up adopting Charlie. We brought him home. He was so good with the kids, he was so good with everyone that uh I put him through some training, and then the output of that is Charlie then got certified as a therapy dog who then comes back into our school, works with our students, and it's a really full circle moment. You've got this uh community engagement program where our students are going out to, you've got teachers going along there, teacher adopts the dog, teacher trains the dog, brings the dog in, and then the kids and the parents can see actually, rather than going and buying this thoroughbred, you know, elite prime specimen of a dog, maybe I can go to the dog shelter, rescue a dog, and they're they'll actually, you know, be better behaved or you know, to the level that they can be trained to be around children every single day. And and that's one of the fears of people adopting dogs. It's just the best example, Heidi. But you work with so many other amazing projects. Maybe you could list through some of the projects that you do work with.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Well, we've got about five um within our local community. We've got the Gibbon Rehabilitation Program, which is just world-class with minimum resources and support, but you know, our school certainly makes a difference there. We work at a local elephant sanctuary. We work uh with JD, which is a Burmese migrant school for children from three years to seven years. Um, Burnham House, which is a local orphanage. Um Plastic Free Phuket is our beach clean and conservation group who work alongside the most amazing organization, um, Sustainable My Cal Foundation. So if anybody's ever in Phuket, really need to hook up and uh reach out to Michelle, um, who is incredible. Um, yeah, so we've got a lot going on on the island, but equal to that, we've got on-campus programs from Shaka. Shaka is our student-led cafe, which is quite famed within the student community. Many students, um, when they know that they're coming, already put it on their list of things that they want to do. And so when we're talking about those connections, so Shaka raises money, we have um through selling drinks, we work with a program called um All for Village in Copan Yam, which is a Mokam community. And we have students go and spend a week with the Mokam community during the October, December, February, and April break. And the Mokam community are an indigenous group who live between, well, they live on Copan Yam, a small island, but they're very much a fishing nomadic community. And our students who have been there realize that to get from the Mokan community to the mainland of the island, it was challenging. Students were missing school. Uh, parents were had a lack of opportunities for work, and I guess most importantly, the access to medical care. So there was a bridge there, but the bridge got broke during one of the horrendous storms they had on the island. So our students then went into a fundraiser. All of the profits from Shaka that year went to the community to build a bridge, and that bridge has now opened up opportunities for the students to go to school, medical care, parents to work. Now, what's very interesting is that some of the children from the Mokan community who've been to school have such a uh powerful relationship with education and they want to continue that they're now going to Yarrowitz. Now, Yarrowitz is an hour and a half away from school, and again, our students go there um during their holidays. So Shaka is now sponsoring um uh students who go who are from the Moken community to go to Yarrowitz, and once a month we have teams of our students going up to Yarowitz to do um educational, like an educational camp, English and maths and games. So, you know, our communities, albeit very wide apart from you know, six-hour drive and an hour boat ride to the Copanyam, their children are going to Yarowitz, and our students are sporting Yarowitz. Yeah, it's it's uh it's a huge interconnected web.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

And can you give us a little uh backstory on Yarowitz? Because I know it's uh it's incredibly inspiring as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah, Yarrowitz was uh created post-sunami, as we know, the tremendous devastation that happened all around Phuket because of the tsunami, families lost their lives or their income. So Yarowitz was set up to help you know the orphan children. You know, it's like a boarding school. Yeah, they've got a farm there with goats and chickens, and they're looking at permaculture. So, you know, when our students go there, not only is it about the education, but their their children, you know, talk and teach our students about animal husbandry and looking after different plants. And some of those plants, um, like lemongrass, for example, gets sent to a local organization called the Lemongrass House, which many of our teachers support that provide beautiful aromatic um room sprays and soaps and shower gels, which are all environmentally friendly. So, yeah, there's over the years huge amounts of connections between different organizations and you know our school.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Special thanks to our sponsors at Offsees who support outdoor learning and professional collaboration across Asia and beyond. Don't forget to sign up for the Office 2026 conference hosted at Garden International School in Kuala Lumpur, where educators, adventurers, and changemakers come together to share ideas, connect, and shape the future of outdoor and experiential education in the region. Now, hi, that's it's been so great to hear about some of the programs that you've helped initiate and things that you've helped provide for our students. When I think about the student experience a little bit more, so much of service and community engagement and outdoor and experiential education involves stepping out of our comfort zones, whether that's physically, emotionally, cultural. How is it that you help to support students to navigate that challenge in what can be a healthy way?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah, you know, I'm really fortunate that um our leadership team has given me time and space as a CAS coordinator to be able to have lessons, to be able to meet one-to-one or have small group interviews. And you talk about stepping out the comfort zones, and it's I think it's one of those phrases that people use so frequently. But I think it's important for students actually to sit down and understand what they are comfortable in, what are they not comfortable in, and for them to really identify that because if they're goal setting, they can't set solid goals unless they know what is what does challenge look like that looked like for them, what does stepping out of their comfort zone look like for them by helping them sit down to unpack, to get them to think about what is the knowledge and the understanding or even the experience I have, whether it be you know, looking at signing up for one of the outdoor ed units, or if it's signing up for one of the community partners, you know, what does challenge look like to them? And I think also it's you know, we provide these opportunities every single day. It's providing routine, it's consistently providing opportunities. I think you mentioned about our fantastic staff. I mean, where else in the world do staff give up, you know, a week of their holidays, you know, just to go and spend time with students. But, you know, the fact that we've got role models and for us also to understand, you know, what are the cultural differences. So really just allowing students to to unpack, I think that you know is a good starting point and providing them that time and space to do so.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

And I think that comes back to that thing again, and and I really love how you highlighted again about the staff and our colleagues that we work with and what that active community engagement and service means to us as well, showing up and and giving our time to help support those students to support those communities, knowing that we're kind of furthering that impact as well. And then I suppose, Heidi, whenever you have students entering those spaces, how is it that you help the students actually negotiate that super, super fine balance between showing initiative and drive and also humility when they enter those community contexts?

SPEAKER_00 35:52

That's a really great question. I think ultimately we have to be realistic that we're not getting our students to fix the problem that they perceive. Um, I think it's providing them the opportunity to understand that we need to come from a place of humility and we need to get them to sort of learn and contribute and then co-create. They need to work alongside our partners. And I don't think that, you know, I'm ever in a situation where I want to take that initiative and drive away, but I have to provide the the opportunity for them to break down exactly what they're aiming to do. You know, we've got to come from that place of humility and and respect, and trying to get students to understand that is tough. Um, as I say, we've got to remind them that they're not there just to fix the problem, they're there to learn and to contribute and say, to work alongside the community. So go go talk to them. And again, I think that goes back to that very early conversation we had, you know, about building relationships.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And then Heidi, what do you see then as we as because many of our listeners are here because it's called the Outdoor Education Podcast. We're talking about outdoor and experiential learning. Where do you see the link between uh outdoor education, challenge, service, community education, and what sits kind of at the core of that from uh a Hannian perspective, like so a Kurt Hahn traditional roots of character development and inspiring the next generation. Do you see anything that that links all of those together?

SPEAKER_00 37:50

I think we both provide students the opportunity to be in unfamiliar territory. You know, we we talk a lot, and we've got that phrase, you know, making sure that they're comfortable with being uncomfortable, providing them the opportunities where, you know, they are once they've identified what their comfort zone is, stepping outside their comfort zone, providing experiences that are going to develop their character. Um, because we want them to cultivate self-awareness, awareness of others, um, and that deep-rooted interconnectedness of the world. I think that's very much where our programs align. We want our students to be adaptable, we want them to be empathetic, you know, towards each other, but also to the environment. Um, and I think that we're both providing um our students the opportunity for perspectives by facing real-world challenges. And so that you know, deep-rooted character building is something that I think both of us strive. And I think that we have seen so many students over the years who've really embraced those opportunities and continue to do so as they've gone on to university and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

And and that's so important, and that came up in one of our meetings today, this this first thing this morning, about one of our uh school counselors said that he was having a conversation with some of our alumni over the weekend and about where they've gone and where they've been since. And that is such a key thing that we have to continue to remember as educators that it's not the student you see before you, but some of the lessons that we're teaching now and here will not be lived or felt too too many years from now. And we want to make sure that we're continuing to be that positive influence on them, not just in the moment, but something that they can look back upon in five years or ten years from now that influences not just their the running in the moment, but the person that they'll eventually become, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yeah, and I, you know, I think it's really powerful when the alumni get come back to us um talking about the the experiences that they've gained at school and how they've applied it. I think it's that that constant reminder that we are setting them up for the future. You know, our job is not just to see them as a graduating student, it's really to try and provide them opportunities, understandings, the skills that they're gonna need for tomorrow. And I don't think we even understand what they're gonna need for tomorrow because the the world is ever changing.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

So fast, so fast. All we can try to do is help to influence them in uh what we feel at this moment and what research shows to be the positive ways at the moment, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Oh gosh, yeah. And you know, when we talk about being comfortable with being uncomfortable, I think the more the more opportunities that we're able to do that, whether it be within community engagement or outdoor ed or even within the classroom, you know, never really settling for anything better than that student can deliver. I think we have that unique opportunity to see the potential that's within and really driving the student and pushing them to really try and take that opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Heidi, just shifting gears a little bit, we've we've provided some context on uh what your vision is for CAS and community engagement and service learning, and we've had some good conversations around that. And we've also discussed a little bit about our own personal context in the area that we work at the moment. But as we think about building community connections and some of the things that our listeners can take away with it, is there anything that you have seen or any examples that you are aware of where there's some common missteps or you know, pitfalls where schools often fall into when starting that process of beginning a service or community engagement program?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Uh that's a really great question. I think that some of the errors, the missteps, um often happen because there has been a lack of relationship building. I really have to stress the importance of constantly meeting with people, meeting with your partners, really understanding um what how each each side can benefit. You know, our students benefit just as much as our partners benefit. It's building that consistency of that communication very, very early on. It's you know, doing that needs assessment, understanding, you know, what our partners need and what our students can be offered through our relationship with our partners. I think it's understanding where both sides need to feel valued and supported. And you know, that that trust and transparency and shared purpose needs to be built. And that doesn't happen over overnight. It doesn't happen through through one meeting. I think we need to be very careful that we don't rush into things. I'm not saying that we want everything to be 100% successful, but we don't want us ever to feel a burden on our um our partners. You know, I often talk about the helicopter approach where schools find a really cool project, they come in, they land in their helicopter, they stir up the dust, they leave, and there's so much to clear up afterwards. You know, so I think it's having that long, long term vision and understanding that, you know, some some projects may take a little longer. And, you know, are our partners happy that something may not be completely finished over? Overnight.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Is that then the real difference between service learning and community engagement, where it's about mutual respect and learning, than just a one-sided, we're here to help?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

We're here to help each other. We're here to low, we're here to learn alongside each other. We're here to co-create together. And I think that schools need to be very strategic with their partnerships. So there is that common shared vision and values. How do you align yourself? I talk about that quite often with the schools I coach, you know, through Cast Connected, how we have that shared vision, how we have a strategic plan where we work together, we co-create what is needed. It's never us who go in and say, Oh, you need new furniture, oh, you need that wall painted, oh, you need to have more English lessons or math lessons. I think that that is a very superficial approach. So again, I'm blessed. I have the time to go and meet our partners and for us to really sit down and dissect how we help and support each other through that open communication, through shared reflections and you know, the feedback, you know, what went well, you know, how we can help each other constantly improve.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

I'm so glad to hear such amazing input and answers to those questions, Heidi. But if you could offer just one message to educators and maybe to students as well, about the power of community engagement, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 45:33

I think it goes beyond helping. I think it's that sense of belonging. When community engagement is done well, you really feel that you are part of that wider community. And I think when we enter those partnerships, it's with openness, as I said, it's with humility, it's with understanding. And I think above all, that transcends any differences. Um, so the shared learning, you know, is not just about the impact in the world, but it's, you know, how we are being transformed by it and with it.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

That's such a fantastic way to end this, Heidi. Heidi, where can our listeners learn more about Cast Connected and community engagement that you're helping to support uh across your wider network?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah, people can email me at Heidi at casconnected.com or go to casconnected.com um website. Um, so there's opportunities there for you to have a look at self-paced courses, um, sign up for a one-to-one coaching session or just brainstorm. You know, ultimately, I really want the community engagement um CAS world to keep pushing. We've got to keep pushing the boundaries. We've got to have a shared vision to be able to support our students, whether it's through community engagement, like yourself, Rob, through being outside and you know, interacting with the environment and taking on challenge and being not risk adverse, but really trying to look at how we can help and support each other as we move forward. So, yeah, Heidi at Cass Connected.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Heidi, thanks for sharing your time, your insight. It's really clear that meaningful community engagement is not just service and it's not just charity work or ticking boxes, but rather connection, commitment, and care to shared vision. Uh, the work that you're doing now really shows how community engagement can be both transformative and sustainable as a practice. For our listeners, you'll find links to Heidi's work and to UWC Thailand's CAS and community engagement projects in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, and share the outdoor education podcast. Special thanks to Gus Merkel for today's show production. You'll find all the details and links in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed today's conversation, please like, subscribe, and share the Outdoor Education podcast to help us reach even more people who care about outdoor and experiential learning.