The Outdoor Education Podcast With Rob Carmichael
The Outdoor Education Podcast explores stories, ideas, and people shaping outdoor learning and its impact worldwide.
The Outdoor Education Podcast With Rob Carmichael
S01:E16 Belonging, & DEI in Outdoor Education with Dan Kreisberg & Camille Simone Edwards
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What if nature could help us better understand diversity, belonging, and human relationships?
In this episode of the Outdoor Education Podcast, Rob is joined by Dan Kreisberg and Camille Simone Edwards, co-creators of Diversity Education in Nature (DEIN). Together, they explore how the natural world can serve as a powerful lens for teaching equity, empathy, and community.
Dan and Camille share how simple outdoor experiences, can open the door to deeper conversations about identity, inclusion, and what it really means to belong. They unpack the idea of “brave spaces” over “safe spaces,” the importance of starting with low-stakes conversations, and why this work is less about quick results and more about planting seeds for long-term change.
The conversation also dives into the realities of doing DEI work in outdoor education today, from barriers to access and representation to the importance of authenticity, vulnerability, and facilitation skills.
This episode is full of practical insights for educators, facilitators, and anyone interested in using the outdoors as a space for meaningful human connection.
Welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast. Honest conversations about nature, learning, and leadership. We explore stories from the field that remind us why outdoor and experiential education matters now more than ever. Dan is an outdoor educator and the founder of Kids in Nature with years of experience helping young people and communities build meaningful relationships with the natural world. His work is grounded in ecological thinking, storytelling, and a belief that a connection to nature is fundamental to how we learn and grow. Camille is an educator and equity practitioner whose work focuses on diversity, inclusion, and belonging. She specializes in facilitating honest, sometimes challenging conversations around identity, helping individuals and organizations create spaces where people feel seen, valued, and able to show up fully. Together, they developed an approach that brings outdoor learning, ecological understanding, and human relationships into conversation in a really thoughtful and meaningful way, exploring what nature can teach us about diversity, interdependence, and community. Dan, Camille, welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Great to be here.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. So every time we start the Outdoor Education Podcast, we like to hear a little bit from our guests on what their journey has been and their journey specifically in regards to outdoor education or the outdoors. But I'd also love to hear a little bit about how your partnership came into fruition as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm not sure where my journey began because I think I've always been interested in being outdoors. Um I think I wake up every morning just trying to figure out where it is going to fit into my day. So, but I did after deciding, I wasn't really cut out to be a you know, wildlife biologist, got involved in outdoor education. That's when my career started. So I've been an outdoor educator, science teacher in public school, and for the last 20 years was a science teacher at Friends Academy, which is a Quaker school on the North Shore of Long Island.
SPEAKER_00And in partnership with Dan, uh my experience in the outdoors really only began in this partnership of diversity, education, and nature in terms of outdoor education in the formal sense. So my background is in education, professional development specifically. And so in our work together, I've had an opportunity to do the work that I'm doing as an equity and belonging practitioner and marry that with outdoor education as a vessel. And what led us to this work together is really each other, this very unique partnership that started in 2020.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's amazing. And uh for our audience who maybe are not familiar with uh DEIN, could you give us a little bit of a background and what your kind of mission is, the aims and objectives of the organization?
SPEAKER_01Well, DEIN stands for diversity, education, and nature. And the idea is that nature is well, Earth is really a role model for building communities of belonging and empathy, and that there's so many ways that the outdoors can help us have better conversations about some of these topics, but also inspire us by how biodiversity and mutualism and interrelationships are just some of the examples that we can learn from so that we can be better able to help our communities, and that DEIN uses a combination of interactive, hands-on outdoor education activities and combination of different kinds of reflection, discussion questions, and conversations to blend that all together.
SPEAKER_00So, for us, this work has been about using the outdoors as a landscape and outdoor education as a vessel to do DEIB practitioning to help communities think about how they are going to be more inclusive, more equitable, and more self-sustaining in the human ecosystem.
SPEAKER_02So, with the work that you're doing, where are your clients, your students coming from? Are you working with school systems? Are you working with community groups? Who is it that you're working with in this space?
SPEAKER_01Kind of all the above. I mean, we started with the idea that just was going to be some lessons we did with my sixth grade science class. And really kind of start, we'd start taking these walks together on our campus, and you know, one idea, idea, idea, idea, and then we're like, wait a minute, we could do this for teachers so they could do it with their students. No, we could do it for adults because adults need these lessons. You know, we've worked with young people, we've worked with adults, we've worked with um Quaker schools, independent schools, some other some nonprofit organizations. Uh, I lead a lot of nature walks in my community because I work in this little sanctuary, and I've started to just blend those into my nature walks, whatever they might, you know, whatever the real topic might be, this always gets woven in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's really cool. And I suppose that that's the target is to work with a diverse range of participants. You talked about their connecting ecological thinking with human relationships and and the idea of taking people on nature walks. Can you explain a little bit more, uh, Camille, how that works in practice?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So, as Dan said, we have these ecological concepts that we're introducing with each workshop or each session or in each series program that we're offering a community. And what we've gone together through and done is created different sort of interpersonal relationship-focused exercises and concepts that we can introduce as parallels to the work that we're doing in an ecological setting. So when we're talking about biodiversity, that means something for us in the human ecosystem. When we're talking about mutualism, there's something that we're talking about in the human ecosystem setting. And so we've kind of got these two pillars that are weaving in and out of each other throughout the program series, whether it supports us in talking to people about curiosity or anti-bias or advocacy or allyship or how to start a crucial conversation. So as we've created each of these workshops, we've found ways to integrate DEIB focused learning and thinking. So first we think about it in the outdoors, and then we turn it on its head and say, well, what does this mean in the building? What does this mean in the classroom? What does this mean in the meeting setting? What are the parallels that we can create for people? And so with each set of activities we do outside, there's a lesson we're trying to teach people about how to engage with each other interpersonally as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's really cool. And and and I think about that a little bit as well. At the moment, most people have the knowledge and awareness of uh DEIB or DEIJ. They have an awareness of it. How do you feel that the outdoors creates a better space for people to experience that or or reflect upon it? What what are the what is the feedback that you're getting from your participants?
SPEAKER_01Being outdoors is just good. You know, it's just inherently good when you're outdoors, you're outside. It's just a good setting. Barriers are getting broken down. You know, kids might be working with different people than they might work inside the classroom. You know, kids who shine in the classroom, maybe they're a little tentative, and someone else who's having trouble in the classroom is, you know, doing the great work outdoors. And that same goes with adults, you know, it's the same sort of dynamic. So that helps breaking down the barriers. You know, they're having fun. Their curiosity is is and the questions and the wonder just happen, you know, just start flowing. That can then, you know, really gets a good segue into having these conversations, you know, about diversity, about equity, inclusion, belonging. And it's also can start off as sort of in a lower stakes way. They can see that diversity doesn't just mean race, gender, sexism. Ah, you know, it can be, oh, look, you know, look at all the diverse colors of these insects, or look at there's all these different shades of green in the tree, you know, broader view of what all that those those words mean. It's like we can you we can use these opportunities to define what we mean by diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging in in that setting, and then expand that because just a good it's a good bleed-in.
SPEAKER_02I I think it's such a fantastic way of framing of difference. When we look at nature, we would be very bored if everything looked the same or behaved in the same way, and to be able to use that as a framing tool is something that I just think is uh incredibly powerful, and it sounds like uh an amazing space for you guys to be in at the moment. But as I think about maybe that word space, uh I know one of the things that led us to this conversation was uh Dan, you had listened to one of the podcasts with uh Nick Haywood that that referenced Brave Spaces, uh a former guest that we had on. You also talk a lot about brave spaces in your work. What does that mean for for you guys?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we we've had an opportunity to think a lot about language in this work as both of us as educators and as practitioners. When I think about the work that I'm doing as an equity and belonging and diversity practitioner, I'm often thinking about the power of language. And so when we started doing this work together, I was sharing with Dan that one of the things I wanted to bring to it from the practitioner's lens was poetry. I just another way for people to sort of find a connection point or find an access point. And we started talking about the kinds of poems that we would use. And two of the poems that I've introduced to our practitioning toolkit, if you will, uh one of them is by uh Mickey Scott v. Jones, and it's called Invitation to a Brave Space. And we started working with that poem because it kind of puts this premise of what a safe space is, not in its truest sense, but in the way it's been reappropriated. It turns it on its head. Because safe spaces we know are places or environments in which a person or a group of people are supposed to believe that they can feel confident in that space, not being exposed to discrimination or criticism or harassment or any emotional or physical harm. And I'd love to read it for you if that's okay. It's it's really short. So this is Invitation to Brave Space by Mickey Scott B. Jones. Together, we will create Brave Space because there's no such thing as a safe space. We exist in the real world. We all carry scars and we have all caused wounds. In this space, we seek to turn down the volume of the outside world. We amplify voices that fight to be heard elsewhere. We call each other to more truth and love. We have the right to start somewhere and continue to grow. We have the responsibility to examine what we think we know. We will not be perfect. This space will not be perfect. It will not always be what we wish it to be, but it will be our brave space together, and we will work on it side by side. So we use this poem by Mickey Scott B. Jones to just disrupt people's thinking. We hear this term sort of appropriated or used to virtue signal the people like everybody's gonna be safe here. This is a safe space here. And then, you know, three weeks into your new job, you're you're you're confronted with something that makes you feel like, wait a minute, I thought this was gonna be safe. So when we when we think about the words that we're introducing to the people that we're working with, because DEIN is also a community and we're here to help make communities more resilient and and strong, we just want to put the word brave next to safe. Spaces can be safe, but that has to be cultivated, and that takes bravery and courage.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's a really powerful answer. I absolutely love that. One of the things that I keep coming back to is that idea of the outdoors as a space to pull in lots of different subject areas. That there's something inherently human and that we're all born with that the outdoors can be a space for us to learn about, for us to learn in and around, and it just it provides such a special space, again when we're talking about spaces, such a special space for us to to learn on any topic or in anything. And the fact that you guys are doing such a fantastic job of pulling in that those conversations, really important conversations, particularly in today's geopolitical landscape. Um, I think more than ever, it is just fantastic. For you guys, then whenever you're facilitating sessions like that, what does it take from a facilitator to hold those spaces well for your participants?
SPEAKER_00I I think one of the things we've learned, I've learned and I've lived that one of the things that it takes is modeling. Uh I I we believe that as educators, right? Uh as we move into this more responsive way of teaching, and and I think it's the responsive way to facilitate as well. I can't expect people to go where I myself am not willing to go. I can't expect people to try things I would not try. And so I think it's about modeling, it's about being humble and also being willing to be vulnerable. It's about the courage and capacity if we don't know something to say, hey, I don't know that, but let's go find that answer together. Or I've been wondering about that as well, right? Like really extending yourself, putting yourself on the line so that people can come to cultivate that trust in front of you, but also through you. So it's this extension of self. And the last thing I would say is it's also about uh holding the space again with that word space. It's one of the first things I learned as a practitioner, how to get your energy sort of up and around people, right? Not leading people from the front and saying, come on, come on, come on, but stepping within the middle of the room and and holding people with your energy and your words and your vibrations so they really believe it's about them too. Dan, what would you say, friend?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think sometimes people are afraid to do this kind of work, whether it's outdoor education or DEI work, because they're not experts. And I think that one of the things that we try to show is even though I think people do kind of look at us like we're experts, but we're not. We're learning just like they are, to sort of show that process as we're working. One of the things that we talk about is that there's these nature awareness skills. And these are skills that would help you, you know, learn more about other people, learn more about the more the human world. So it's being attentive. We call it wonderfuling, that's using your sense of wonder both to wonder about things, but also just to see the wonder, like, wow, it's amazing. And pattern seeking, just seeing the patterns. And so, just you don't need to know all the facts about what tree that is or what's the ecological relationship between the geosphere and the hydrosphere. Just have to like let's practice paying attention, let's practice seeing wonder, let's practice seeing patterns. All of us can do that, you know, just kind of showing that it's this is accessible to to everybody.
SPEAKER_02They're both fantastic answers. Really get a sense of how you cultivate that space as well. When I think about learning within the outdoors, quite often something that we see is that the lessons learned from the initial activity or the experience are not felt for many years later. Sometimes it's often just sowing the seed. How then, as facilitators, especially within this uh DEI work, whenever you have students or participants coming in with their own mindset, their ideas uh you know that have been imprinted on them by family and the society and everywhere they've grown up, maybe are not inclusive. How how do you hold space in those difficult moments for those young people coming in with a set of ideas on how the word works and knowing that you may not see an immediate change? And maybe change is the wrong word, but an immediate impact of the work that you're doing?
SPEAKER_00I love this question. Um, it really just makes my spirit want to dance. I think that's the heart of what makes DEI practitioning and DEI B practitioning feel like art and feel truly like the science that it is. I think sometimes uh there are just these preconceived notions about what DEIB practitioners are there to do or what is the agenda. And that's not it. You know, at the heart and essence of this work, it's it's about bringing people together and moving them to be change makers for themselves, for their communities, for their lives, for the world. And so when we think about, you know, the people that are walking into the rooms to see us, whether they're young people or professionals or people that are leaders in their field, what I'm thinking about is first and foremost, their own identity consciousness. It's there, it's always with us. People don't stop being who they are when they walk into a room to do a 90-minute workshop or when they're there for their 40-minute class. And I never expect them to. It's not we're doing this regardless of who you are. We're doing this for you, inclusive of all of the things that you are. You're you're this unique constellation. And Dr. Liza Tulusin talks about this identity-conscious work. And so, to your good point, you are coming into a room or a session or a class lesson with a whole formed identity that's full of your beliefs, just as much as it is your social identity markers, just as much as it is is your daily practices. And so, first and foremost, we never want people to feel ashamed. Shamed brains cannot learn that neuroscience is real and it's important. We also know that brains have bias that is real, that is not negotiable, that is there. And so for me, when I'm looking at a person, whether they are a child or an adult, I'm thinking if all of that is happening for you and it's also happening for me, we have to find some space to meet on some common ground where you feel like I'm not gonna judge you, I'm not gonna blame you, and I'm going to let you learn in public. And I'm gonna model that so that everybody feels like they can do this learning and co-constructing and thinking out loud because it's that fear that also pipes up in people when they hear those letters together. D-E-I-B, D-E-I-J, am I gonna mess it up? Am I gonna offend somebody? So I say meet people where they are, empower them to learn in public. And then when they do, create space for them to be upheld and uplifted so that they keep trying and keep challenging themselves. Because all that stuff is walking in the door. And they shouldn't feel like there's anything wrong with how they have showed up in the world, especially children, because everything is coming from somewhere else. Their beliefs about what family looks like, their beliefs about what's right in the world, their beliefs about what they should be doing in the future, all of it. And then, of course, all their social identity markers. That's what I would offer right off the bat. Dan, what do you think, friend?
SPEAKER_01Well, I go back to one of the first one of our first conversations is when I had these ideas and and I was like, we're gonna solve all the problems of diversity, it's the school, we're gonna fix it. And Camille's like, no, slow down. You know, we're gonna start with just how can we have conversations? How can we just help people have conversations? So I think part of is just realizing that it's slow. It's sort of used our one of our you know, nature metaphors is just the weathering of rocks. Like it's it's gonna happen, it's a slow process, it's inevitable, you know, and to make those changes. And that, you know, one of the patterns that we talk about are fractal patterns and the idea that we could start small, and then once that gets go up to the next scale, then the next scale, then the next scale. So for helping just some friends have better conversations, then we can work on the classroom, then maybe the grade level, then maybe the first floor of the building, or you know, however it expands, but to start start where people are at and then move slowly.
SPEAKER_00And Rob, if I could add one more thing, Dan, you just inspired me to add this work in DEI practitioning when we're working with communities anywhere, it can be glacial. You can look at something and go, did that even change? Did I make an impact at all? And and you're not looking for that short-term shift. You are planting the seeds to use a metaphor that you used before. We are planting the seeds that we hope will grow when we trust that they will. And you don't know where that thing is gonna blossom. You don't know when it's gonna sprout up. I have had students that we both worked with in this school come back to me when they were in university to say, hey, I'm I'm running for chair of this social justice climate, but but can you I and I thought about something you were saying when I was in eighth grade and now I'm doing this. Like you do it, you do it for that long term, really powerful aha moment for them that is authentic. In the moment, it might not show up. And that's not why we do it. We do it because we know we have to plant all those seeds and continue to put that young person in spaces where they can grow and grow and grow. And then when it's theirs, And it's authentic, it's always it's always powerful.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Superb. So many thoughts running through my mind at the moment. Uh you mentioned there, Camille, sometimes why people hesitate to get into these conversations because they're afraid of getting it wrong. What would your advice be to any of our listeners who are thinking about uh raising some of these conversations within their sessions? You know, is there anything that you would say, either of you, to give some kind of useful ideas or thought processes for someone wanting to engage a little bit more with this uh approach and this kind of work?
SPEAKER_01Well, I definitely have that question getting started in all of this and wondering, you know, to someone who you know looks like me, my age, my skin color, do I, you know, what could I, you know, do I belong in this world at all? And um, Camille may be very, very welcome. And what about first the actually the first workshop we we went to was the People of Color Conference in San Antonio, Texas, which there's the independent school network. So it's the network of all the independent school, well, most of the independent schools in the United States, but you know, you know, maybe we should go. And I'm like, Can I go? Am I you know, would I even be, you know, can I be there? And so Camille was just like, Yes, you can be there. You're you're you could be part of this. One of the speakers was just saying, like, there needs to be people that look like you there in this work because other people like me will identify like, whoa, if if the 65-year-old white man could be part of this, and maybe I could be part of this. So that I did start to feel like, okay, I have there's something I can offer in my own way. I just have to kind of figure out how that will be.
SPEAKER_00My my answer dovetails with Dan's. I I think folks have to start in spaces with the folks that they feel connected to. I I mean, it's the same way we talk about, you know, when young people are going through school, studies show they need one friend. One friend, one real friend, and they can find a sense of belonging and a sense of safety and comfort. And so as folks across their various sectors are trying to think about, you know, where do I begin or who do I begin with? I think one of the safest, most welcoming places to begin challenging the things that you think and know, as well as doing new learning and sharing your gifts, are with the people that you know that you trust. Find one person. Find one. You're lucky if you get two. Like that's amazing. All you need is one. All you need is one, though. Uh, somebody that you can begin to do that thinking with. Two is a blessing. Three is an abundance in this kind of space, in this climate, if there are three people that you can speak openly with, that is a powerful thing, especially if they're people that love you enough to challenge you or ask what you meant when you said something, right? And so I think that I say that because in the same way that Dan says I created space for him in this work of DEIB practitioning, Dan created space for me in this world of outdoor education. I wouldn't have seen enough imagery at the age of 31 when Dan and I started this work, to feel comfortable in the outdoors where we've been without Dan in the Adirondacks. No. Many of the places, no, I wouldn't, because those aren't the messages that I receive from the world, retail or media or what have you. And so I think, you know, when you find someone that you're willing to do that crucial conversation with, whether it's a neighbor or the person you sit across from in a board meeting, they don't have to be people you know in every facet of your life. But if they are committed to being the person you're gonna know in this way, somebody you can read with, right? Listen to a podcast with, take a car ride with, go for a walk with, that's the buddy you're looking for. And if you're different from each other, even better. Even better, because that is when that healthy contention can begin. And that's what you want to be. Divine in the way that you're connected, but welcome the discontention.
SPEAKER_02That's really great. And it it's it's wonderful to see how both of those answers offer slightly different perspectives on what it means and how relational it is. It's you know, it's so crucial to building those relationships with with different people. And uh, Dan, I'm I'm kind of drawn to one of the statements that you made regarding like someone that looks like me, you know, and maybe this is particularly from a US perspective where a lot of the DEI conversations are focused on race. That is a huge area of focus for this work. But there's so many of those non-obvious differentiating factors for people. You could have a disability, you could have a hidden disability, it could be mental or physiological that that isn't obvious to people who are passing you. You could have came from a conflict zone, or you know, you come from a non-stereotypical family, and there's so many ways that every individual is different. And I'd just like to know what is your experience as facilitators and trying to open up that conversation around DEI beyond what many people see as the obvious conversation topics.
SPEAKER_01I mean, actually, the the activity that first inspired it all was just we were doing like a we call it a bio blitz. Let's see how many different kinds of animals, insects, arthropods we can find, digging the soil, go in the field. Um, how many different kinds of plants can we find? Just look at the diversity of life. So they, you know, went out and you know, found all sorts of life. And then, you know, that just we just started having a conversation about you know, what are the differences? What are you know, some have six legs, some have eight legs, some have brown, some have stripes, you know, just all the fit, there are physical differences, you know, they have different behaviors, just like, oh, look at all the different ways that they're different. And there's a diversity of diversity, and then you know, then that led into how that diversity builds resilience for this ecosystem. And let's look at ourselves. And that's where some of the reflection activities came in. You know, Camille has, I guess, inventory of friendship, and just even in your friend group, how are you guys the same? How are you guys different? And why is it so much easier to sort of have these conversations when we're talking about insects or birds? And how can we kind of just you know shift that to uh these sort of low stakes conversations that you know we like different music, we like different different sports. You can just easier to show this example to know in a low stakes. One of the many things I've learned from Camille is that start low stakes is a good place to start. It doesn't mean you end at low stakes and it's gotta be age appropriate, but that's a good place to start.
SPEAKER_00100%. I think in partnership with that, one thing we've learned is that it as as practitioners, you kind of do the opposite thing for kids than you do with adults. When I'm working with young people, I don't usually have to tell them, hey, I'm not just talking about this thing, because they aren't yet, they aren't yet living with those filters. When when they're introduced to these subjects very young, they see all of the possibilities. It's socialization and exposed points of bias that we confirm in our brains that make us think by the time we're adults, whatever it is we think about diversity, whatever it is we think belonging means, right? Like we become more narrowed in our thinking, sometimes more rigid, right? And we think about growth mindset versus fixed mindset around these things. And so one of the things I'm I'm grateful to say, and I do this really openly and directly, is that with adults, I just have to be super explicit. In the workshops that Dan and I do together, I'm this way. In the workshops that I do on my own, I'm this way. I literally say to people, this is our definition of diversity. If you are stopping here, you you're not going far enough. Diversity is not synonymous with the word race. And I mean, Dan knows this. I say this within the first 10 minutes of every workshop, and people are like, okay, so now we're, you know, the elephant's in the room, we're addressing the elephant. That's not, it's about more than just this. So if that's where you thought we were gonna live, you can kind of like clear that out of your spirit, move that hurdle out of your brain, and and see how expansive this space in this world is. We'd say the same thing when we talk about DEI B. This is not one word. D E I J, D E I B, this that's not one word. These are four different spheres and areas of research. That's so minimizing, that's so limiting. And so really encouraging adults by being explicit about what we mean, defining everything, and assuming that we are not working from the same playbook of information. We have to assume that so that we can disrupt what people understand and believe and call them into some more grounded, more open, more realistic thinking about what this work is and isn't.
SPEAKER_01The thing with young people, it's not like we would say we say, okay, class, today is diversity day, today's belonging day. You know, we would when the first time we come around, we you know, we'll say, all right, it's a Camille day, because they knew Camille's coming to the classroom, it's a Camille day. And we know we're using the words, we're doing lessons, but you know, to really see this isn't just a one-hour class on diversity, and now we're gonna go off to do math. You don't have to name it. You know, that's a one way of thinking of sort of integrating it. And if you're in a situation where people might be scared of the word diversity or equity inclusion, you don't really have to name it that. You could just do the lessons and have the conversations, and it just kind of organically grows, you know, and especially if you're focusing on you know, one of the one thing we joke, you can't be against belonging. Let's focus on belonging, and then all the other parts will just sort of filter in.
SPEAKER_02Special thanks to our sponsors at Offsees who support outdoor learning and professional collaboration across Asia and beyond. Don't forget to sign up for the Offsees 2026 conference hosted at Garden International School in Kuala Lumpur, where educators, adventurers, and change makers come together to share ideas, connect, and shape the future of outdoor and experiential education in the region. If I can look now towards nature as a teacher or maybe circle back to it, are there any particular experiences that seem to open up people to these ideas in a in a different way?
SPEAKER_01Well, one of the one of our opening activities often is to build a bird nest. We like to have activities that kind of call them controlled chaos or controlled freedom, where you know, here's the instructions and you know, here's the boundaries, there's some guidance, and but then you know, go off and and do X. So one of them is to you know, try and build a bird nest, and we say, you know, if you we usually have tweezers or closed pins, so if you want to replicate a uh the beak of a bird, or you can use your hands, and I see you know, some birds are ground nester, some are you know, nest in trees, some are social, some in better. So they just go off and they build a nest. And it, you know, it's you know, it's a field or a grassy area, it doesn't have to be a huge nature preserve, anything like that. It's always great to watch it. So people dive in right away. Some are a little more reluctant, some work together, some don't. You're just sort of whether it's adults or young people, it just kind of breaks the ice, gets them going. And then that kind of leads into okay, what did you learn about a bird? What did you learn about? Well, how do you better understand a bird's life? And then that sort of slides us into empathy, and you know, empathy being understanding. So you're by doing this, having this experience, you can be more empathetic to a bird's life. Now let's move over to humans, and how can we be more empathetic to each other? Could ex-on interactive activity followed by the conversation and moving it to connecting it to the human human side of things. Because, you know, we want to um it's like you know, empathy is great. I understand what you're going through, but we don't want it to end there. All right. We want to know, like, okay, I understand what you're going through. How can how could I know what will truly what you need, not what I think you need or what I would do in that situation? It's we know what do you need and how can I help you? And so to get from empathy to radical empathy, that's without that's with the kicks in the nature of tentative skills. Like, if I'm more attentive to you, I can better understand what you might need. If I see the wonder in you, and if I can learn how to ask questions with good intent, you know, we all, you know, I could ask Camille, what are those earrings? Or I could say, wow, those are beautiful earrings. Can you tell me more about them? You know, we all we all know kids can ask the same question different ways, or adults, not just kids. So, how do we ask good questions? How do we see the patterns in our lives so that we really understand? Okay, now I know, or at least a better idea, might not always know exactly how I can best help you feel a sense of belonging because of what you need, not what I think you need, or you know, what I would do.
SPEAKER_00Spot on. Yeah, I really appreciate this question. And Dan, that was amazing. I was so joyful as I was listening to you. Uh, I think one of the Well, one one more thing.
SPEAKER_01I, you know, I learned that radical empty from you. And I always stop, I stopped at empathy until I met you.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the other things that I love that we do when we're talking to people and working with people is helping them to consider how they are going to really treat the conversations they're having with care and with dignity. And so activities like when we're working on building that skill of empathy that we really think of as a superpower are also coupled with activities where we're trying to get people to be pattern seekers, right? So we have this nature awareness skill of pattern seeking. And Dan created this fantastic blueprint that we've turned into a guidebook that people can use when they're out in nature, learning how to walk in nature and be in nature and notice nature. And one of the activities has people kind of looking around to see what patterns they notice that wild nature, that the more than human world is creating naturally every day, right? Without us doing anything to it. It's happening all around us. And when we talk about pattern seeking, I love the flip of talking about that in the human ecosystem. So as we we're out in the community and people are going, oh, you know, I'm noticing this and this is a fractal, or I'm noticing this, and here's where I see a spiral. I love that exercise because the equivalent of that in the human ecosystem is like, okay, so whether I'm working with educators that are supporting a team of students, or whether I'm working in a community where they are all school leaders, I can say, so let's talk about the skill of pattern seeking and how we use it every day as leaders or every day as people who do community engagement. Because the patterns that you are keen to noticing outside can be patterns that you become keen to noticing inside, right? Why is this person always the last person to speak? What am I noticing that third day in a row when a student comes in and I think they're signaling something to me, right? So all of these nature awareness skills are designed in a way to get you thinking, well, what does it look like if I turn this on onto or into the scope of looking at people? What would it mean if I was a fierce pattern seeker with people? What would it mean if I was really, really keyed into being attentive to people, the people I'm leading or the people I'm serving? What would it mean to really look upon people with wonder? Not fear. Not fear. Because it's so easy to fear what you don't know and you don't understand. But if when I'm meeting somebody, my first thought is wonder, the way that it is when I'm standing at the top of a mountain, or the way that it is when I'm looking at this gigantic tree. And and we don't mean it to be romantic. This is this is re a really spiritual way to look upon one another. And so we're also trying to integrate into the work that we do this sense of humanity and spirituality that that we believe should be a part of teaching and learning.
SPEAKER_02Wow. And you know, I'm drawn to that idea that you brought up of systems, and I think um when we look from a nature-based lens, we're always looking at at different systems. What does it look like for you guys whenever you teach within that space where you start to notice someone starting to see themselves as being part of that interconnected system of people in the same way that nature has so many different interconnected systems? Is there is there any things that you see from your participants, but whether young people or adults, whenever that kind of clicks?
SPEAKER_00I think sometimes in the in the busy kind of hum of our worlds, um, when people come to our workshops or come to our sessions, you know, one of my favorite pieces of work we've done is we built a day-long equity seminar at the People of Color conference. And so what's happening usually in that space is that there are many people that are DEIB practitioners or care about equity and inclusion in that space, but maybe we weren't meeting a lot of people that were thinking about outdoor education as the vessel. And so sometimes we're in populations and serving people where they're they're looking for the DEIB part, and sometimes we're in spaces where they're looking for the outdoor education part, depending on what they know more. But in this equity seminar space, we were able to create a series of activities where we were getting people that were there to use their school as the backdrop for an ecosystem. And so over the course of the day, we had them keep returning to this ecosystem to ask them, you know, what role are you playing in this ecosystem? What role do you want to be playing in this ecosystem? What are the nutrients that are well and alive in this ecosystem? What does it need to be more resilient and right? Like really using this metaphor. And people just did not want to leave their notebooks because most of the time people are saying to us, like, I don't even have time to think. To have this uninterrupted time to really use this metaphor as a low-stakes kind of safe way for me to name things that I'm seeing without talking about anybody in my community with perfect strangers in the room. One, I know that I'm not alone. Two, I'm seeing that all of these ecosystems have things that in them that we can use to make a difference. And three, I get to think about being a change maker again in a way that is just lower stakes and in a way that really taps into their creativity. And so I think for me, anytime the adult professionals we're working with also feel like they get to do this DEI B practitioning work in a way that speaks to their creative self, people get excited. People get excited, people think that more is possible. They kind of walk away going, oh my gosh, what's my first next step gonna be? Because I feel like you guys just gave me all these ideas and now I gotta figure out what to do with them. That's a great moment where they feel like all the tools are just like spilling out of their arms and they're thinking about what to do first when they get home.
SPEAKER_02I think sometimes the lens from uh an outdoor educator's perspective is that we're quite an inclusive bunch. We'll always try to ensure, especi especially from the facilitation side of things, we get lots of different types of people coming along to outdoor education centers, in schools, participating with it in a lot of those sessions. And there's certainly an idea, I would say, within most of the outdoor education community that we're there to serve whoever comes through the front door of the facility, of the school, and how we approach it. In terms of things that the industry as a whole needs to do better, Camille, you mentioned about the the visuals about advertising and marketing campaigns, not having you know uh different races shown, you know, opening for people of different sexual orientation being you know marketed to or space being made to as well. And the same with uh I think there's a a question there about when it comes to disability, right? And access as well. Just to to highlight a two or three different things, what could be done better from a DEI standpoint as an industry as a whole?
SPEAKER_00I think that as I've been entering this space in the formal sense of outdoor education, not not somebody who spends time in the outdoors because uh I was a kid that never wanted to come inside, but I think about in this formal landscape, one of the things that I've seen is people of a variety of different backgrounds. So I appreciate you mentioning race, but also let's do gender, let's do sexual orientation, let's do ability, um, both physical and otherwise, not being sure how welcoming the environment is going to be. So maybe seeing, you know, uh advances in the representation, but that sometimes can be a virtue signal that people find to be not true once they get on the ground, right? Just because I saw the person on the cover of the REI magazine that makes me feel whatever have you across any social identifier. Am I going to feel comfortable hiking in my own backyard? Am I gonna feel like I can go biking in this area that all my friends are going to and we're all the same age, but we look different from each other, right? Um, so when I think about some of the things that my friends and I talk about as peers, and we're in our mid 30s and we're of a variety of different backgrounds. There are some of us that feel like we know where we will be welcomed, and others of us that aren't sure. Because the magazine is just a magazine. The commercial is just a commercial. What you experience when you get there in terms of feeling welcomed can be very different than what you think is being promised. And so I think that that is an opportunity that will take time and will take people making a concerted effort that have that power to make the space more accessible and comfortable for others of us, really what it is. Because at this point in 2026, it's not that I can't find someone who looks like me on a magazine. It's how I feel when I walk in the REI that's in my neighborhood. How do I actually feel? Right? It's not, do I think I can go on this trail biking with my partner? It's when he and I get out there, how do people look at us when we're taking our bikes down? It's that, right? It's how we feel when a park ranger rides by. It's that. So I think there's something about what's being espoused and put out there to us, and then there's something that we're living with. And again, I think that's true across many different social identifiers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, yeah, that's one of the things we talk about with patterns. Like not all patterns are not are, you know, there's patterns that aren't so good, there's patterns that are let's keep doing this. I think as an organizational level, certainly an awareness for DI work has has grown, you know. I mean, when I first started, no one even thought about it or talked about it. But um, for example, like the the New York State Outdoor Education Association, you know, they have an equity, access, and inclusion committee. I know the North North American Association of Varimal Education, you know, they have committees and and they when they're like we presented for them, so they're definitely looking for um presenters, and you know, they have an extensive um ways of becoming involved in DI connecting it to outdoor education. You know, I think on you know, it all comes down though to individual programs, and we want to make it accessible, but what's making it not accessible? You know, you know, it still comes down to is you know, does the school or the individuals do they have enough money for the trip or the money for the experience? You know, is there time? Is there is a curriculum allow it? You know, is what about transportation? What about you know the gear that the kids might need or the adults might need? So I think it it still comes down to like really thinking about what what is preventing people from being accessible. There's good work happening. You just um on Long Island where we are, they're starting to have these nature walks and they're promoting them as a healthy activity, and that's why they're really trying to get families to go and and especially take advantage of the parks. You know, we have a lot of these beautiful preserves on Long Island, but they're either hard to get to, or you know, there might not be the facilities people need, and they're trying to just you know broaden the audience and they're doing it through the lens of like these are healthy activities to do, not just in you know educational, which um you know it was pretty exciting to to see that. So I think there's a lot of good work, but certainly could be more.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and uh and when I think of that, there's a couple of things that that jump to mind. Uh the first is I know it again, looking at this, reframing it from a different perspective. When we talk about risk, for example, quite often stereotypical standard approaches to look at the things that are going wrong and uh analyze them to see what we can do better. But I think a a much more holistic way to do it as well is also to look at what is going right and see how we can replicate that more. And I think sometimes within that DEIB setting or DIJ setting, quite often we're always looking for what do we need to do better, what do we need to fix, what do we need to prepare. And I think we could probably promote and see things that are actually working well, so that more people are familiar with a framework that they can then take and repeat in a different setting. And I do think that is maybe a a critique of the space at the moment, is that we're always looking to see what we can do better as opposed to what we can replicate that's actually going quite well in some places, and and there's always things that we can do better. We we know that, but we also have to maybe celebrate some of the successes that we're having, like DIN, right? This is this is uh a platform to celebrate something that is going really well. Uh, and brought to a few things from my own personal context. The um the offseas community event that happens over here, the the conference. You know, we've got 300 plus outdoor educators, people from all over the world, 20 plus countries, a range of socioeconomic backgrounds, a range of, and maybe that's one of the things about the outdoors is you don't meet too many people driving around in Mercedes who work within the outdoors. Most of us have started started out from a very similar uh socioeconomic perspective. Not that outdoor manufacturers or brands uh target those audiences, like a a North Face or a Patagonia jacket's still gonna set you back $500. Uh but it's one of those things. But I think that that space of like the offseason is like is a really good example of that being done well. Thinking about uh the tensions, the resistance and the realities of trying to deliver this work again in this especially with you guys being US based with that uh political climate there at the moment. Is there any conversations that you're finding that are creating tensions in the space for you? Have you faced any resistance to this work? And you know, has that taught you, you know, what have you learned from that?
SPEAKER_01So in one way, no, we haven't had much resistance because you know the people most of the you know the schools and the people are choosing to you know be in our workshops or be a part of the community, and you know, we're pretty clear with who we are and what we're doing. So um, you know, it so I would say during our workshops, you know, but I I could be missing something because you know I'm looking at through my lens, and I could be missing something, you know, and and it's interesting when we first started, you know, America the United States is like, you know, we were was perfect timing for us when we first started, and then the you know, things shifted and it changed. So I wonder sometimes, are there schools like you know, we do send out materials and you know, the lack of response from certain places, you know, maybe that is a sign of resistance. You know, maybe it's you know, there could be a lot of reasons why, hey, they're not interested in us. There'd be a lot of reasons, but I do wonder sometimes like how much of that is, you know, the name scares them off or whatever, and they're trying to avoid it. And again, one of the zillion things that Camille's taught me, and she's like, you know, if a if a business or a school, we don't want to work with them. Like if they don't want us, we don't want, you know, they just won't, it just won't work. We have to be honest with who we are, and they have, you know, it's just you know, we want to work with people who we can work with. I mean, as far as sort of resistance, and you know, kids can't fake it. So, you know, if you're they're not, you know, if they're not into the lesson, you know, they're in the they're gonna tell you whether directly or indirectly. So there, you know, there's that. But um I don't know. I could, like I say, I could easily be missing some of the the dynamics of what goes on.
SPEAKER_00I think in partnership with that, I would add. I appreciate you right, you know, earlier in this conversation, uh zooming out so that we're thinking about what's happening on a global landscape and and talking about the fact that, you know, when we talk about the context of the US, diversity work and diversity as a term immediately gives us connotation for race because of, you know, what it looks like in this country and and what this country was created around and founded upon, and and sort of what fuels those systems of inequity now. And I'm grateful to consider the answer to this question on a more global scale because I'm always thinking about that. Um, I grew up in a military family and I spent just as many of my years growing up outside of the US as inside of the US. And I think a lot about how there is tension inherent in this work all of the time. It's just what lens we're looking through when we talk about the tension. Some of it is around people's beliefs, some of it is right like through that lens, just people's cognitive dissonance as people are experiencing things that are incongruent. But the conflict could be happening with one person to content. It could be happening intrapersonally. A person could be storming in the middle of the room and we don't know and they're still sitting there. And it could be interpersonal. And so I think it's happening all of the time in all of those ways. And I and I also think that it's it's it's it's a given. And so, to your good point, we do want to double down on what's going well and what's going right. And there's a reason that DEI practitioners are here to help people understand how we can talk about the things that we still have opportunities to fix. Uh, the urgency that comes from practitioners is in often, depending on what their identity is, feeling the weight of things not changing fast enough because it impacts people. Right. It's easy for someone to just go, well, that's not that's policy making takes forever or guidelines take forever. And we look at the inanimate thing and we don't look at the people that are being impacted. And that's the humanity part of this work. And so as a practitioner, I just like double down on both. It's like, I'm like high expectations and high nurturance. I want to talk about everything that's going right. I want to double down on that algorithm and I want us to crush it. And I also need us to not drop this thing because when we let go of what's hard and we just like wash it down with all this stuff that's great, there are people that still aren't okay. I'm not talking about paperwork. Like I'm an administrator. I know that. I'm a systems girl all day long. But I'm worried about that kid. I'm worried about that family, I'm worried about that person in your community that is not getting something that they need. And so it's about figuring out how we live in the tension because there is always tension, but we do it with dignity and respect and compassion because we can be in a disagreement. We cannot understand each other and I not disrespect you, and I not make you feel unwelcome. And so, like, that's the work of like civil discourse. That is the work of healthy debate and dialogue where we can be in a disagreement. But am I listening to be moved or changed? Or am I just waiting for you to get done so I can say what I'm trying to say? Like all of that teaching and learning and modeling is happening around us all of the time. And so, you know, where people decide they want to be and how people decide they want to hold this work, there are just as many healthy examples as unhealthy examples. So there's resistance in the work all the time. And because it's a marathon and not a sprint, our work is teaching people how to get in the conversation, get in the work, and stay in it. I don't care if you're walking. I love it. Walk, let's walk together, let's walk forward. You don't have to run at it. I just want us to still be doing it 20 years from now, 25 years from now. There have been DEIB practitioners since the beginning of time. We weren't calling it what we're calling it now. There have been people that have cared about the planet since the beginning of time, right? So maybe the language is changing. Maybe we're learning more about the approach. Um, and there's always going to be tension. And we just have to accept those terms of engagement and find healthier ways, more sustainable ways to bring people in the room and keep them there. Because it's not about me, it's about all of us. And we all have to believe it's about all of us. And the last thing I'll say is that sometimes people think it doesn't matter because they go, oh, well, that's not about me. If you don't think it's about you, a part of our work is helping people understand how it is about them. But if you don't think it's about you at the beginning, that's okay. Because it's impacting somebody you love. There's somebody in your life that needs you to do this work in a different way or in the way you've been doing it, uh, just how you've been doing it, because you're crushing it. And so there's something for everybody here.
SPEAKER_02That's wonderful. And when you're talking there, Camille, one of the things that popped into my head was that idea for us to continue to be brave. Be be brave in facing tension, be brave in holding space for others, be brave in confronting your own ideas and challenging them, you know. And and if someone brings a good argument, is that something that we then have to consider? Be be brave in facing a a different reality. Just as we uh c come towards the the end of our podcast here, you guys have given us so much to think about, so many great points coming through. Uh I just want to look towards the the future. And if I was to ask you what gives you hope in the space and where would you like this work to grow next, just as a as a final question.
SPEAKER_01Well, one of the things that we've talked about as far as is hope is that just being with like-minded people like yourself. There's really good people out there doing really good work. Um, you know, cool people doing cool things. So that certainly gives us hope that just being around good people. That's been very that's been very inspiring.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I I think one thing that gives me hope right now and every day is young people. It's why I chose the vocation that I did to maintain being an educator, to continue to be a lifelong learner and to work with young people in every capacity uh of the work that I do, and also a commitment then to the adults that take care of them. Uh, it's why I'm so passionate about professional development. When I meet educators, whether they're brand new to the field or a veteran that's been serving for 30 plus years, trying to figure out what more they want to do or what more they want to know. I am so grateful to be a part of a vocation that dedicates itself to children. Children give me hope and help me to turn down the sounds uh of the outside world that get a little too loud. And and that might sound super crunchy, super granola. That is 100% my truth. Working with young people every day gives me hope for the future.
SPEAKER_02Camille, Dan, thank you both so much for such a wonderful conversation. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_02There's a lot in this conversation that I hope will stay with people, especially that idea that nature is not just the backdrop for learning, but something that can help us think a little bit more honestly about how we can relate to one another and the systems that connect us. You know, we've seen that from the conversation that belonging is not just something that happens immediately, it's something that we have to create intentionally and with purpose in a meaningful way. For our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in today to the Outdoor Education Podcast. And if this episode resonated with you, please like, subscribe, and share the outdoor education podcast so even more people can listen to these conversations. Thank you. Special thanks to Gus Merkel for today's show production. You'll find all the details and links in the show notes. And if you've enjoyed today's conversation, please like, subscribe, and share the outdoor education podcast to help us reach even more people who care about outdoor and experiential learning.