S01:E19 The Outdoor Leader: Resilience, Integrity and Leadership with Jeannette Stawski

In this episode of The Outdoor Education Podcast, Rob is joined by Jeannette Stawski, founder of Leading Valiantly and author of The Outdoor Leader, Resilience, Integrity and Adventure. Jeannette brings a rich perspective shaped by guiding, teaching, wilderness medicine, university outdoor programmes, executive coaching, association leadership, and fifteen years as Executive Director of the Association of Outdoor Recreation and Education.

Together, Rob and Jeannette explore what it really means to be an outdoor leader, moving beyond technical competence alone to look at judgement, communication, resilience, integrity, vulnerability and service. The conversation looks closely at failure as a necessary part of learning, the difference between purposeful challenge and unnecessary hardship, and why the outdoors gives such immediate feedback on how we lead, listen and work with others.

Jeannette also reflects on professionalisation within the outdoor sector, the need for fair pay and stronger recognition of outdoor work, and the role that associations and communities of practice can play in shaping a more confident, connected and purposeful field.

This is a thoughtful and energising conversation for outdoor educators, school leaders, programme directors, instructors and anyone interested in how outdoor experiences can help people become more capable, reflective and courageous leaders.

Find out more about Jeannette’s work at Leading Valiantly:
https://www.leadingvaliantly.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast. Honest conversations about nature, learning, and leadership. We explore stories from the field that remind us why outdoor and experiential education matters now more than ever. Jeanette's career has moved across the many layers of our field from guiding, teaching, and wilderness medicine to university outdoor programs, executive coaching, association leadership, as well as sector-wide professional development. Jeanette has served for 15 years as Executive Director of the Association of Outdoor Recreation and Education, or AOR, before recently returning to the University of Michigan, where she now works in adventure leadership and sustainability programs. Jeanette, it's great to have you here and welcome to the Outdoor Education Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Ah, what a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me on.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Jeanette, you know that uh from listening to the podcast, uh, as I'm sure you have, we always start by having our guests tell us a little bit about where they got their first start in engaging with the outdoors or in their early career. For you, what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah. So um I grew up in the west side of Michigan here in the States, and I have uh dad and three brothers. And um, as part of that, uh camping was part of our kind of family fabric. And so I watched my older brothers go off with dad and and have um Boy Scouts or other experiences. And then um I fell into scouting uh Girl Scouts and um I remember kind of father-daughter camping, and so I think that was just kind of my gateway in, like many young people, uh, is having that role modeled by your parents. Um, I also went to a summer camp, um, a YMCA summer camp called Camp Manitoulin. And uh, and that's actually the camp that my father worked at, and then actually I chose to work at. And so those things were kind of foundational in my introduction to the outdoors.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

That's amazing. I I find that with so many of our North American guests, that that idea of it's starting with family first is a really driving factor. And it's something that I think for us as outdoor educators, now we provide so many of these experiences for young people who didn't have that uh in their early years. And I just think that's it's such an awesome thing for parents to be able to introduce their own kids into. It's just wonderful. But I if we move on to where you got your career in the outdoors, Jeanette, can you tell us a little bit about those those first steps into that as a career pathway?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

I certainly can. So um I was studying uh natural resources at the University of Michigan, and I was also an athlete here at the university, and um I was a rower. And um, during the summers, I actually found myself as a rafting guide. I had never gone rafting before, but somehow I had it stuck in my head uh that I would enjoy some time out uh in in Glacier National Park area that's out in Montana. So I somehow was able to uh acquire the summer job of being a whitewater rafting guide, having, again, no experience, um, drove cross country uh and was trained on site, and then was just finishing up my studies. I actually had no idea that you could have a job in the outdoor industry if I'm being completely transparent. So I think in my mind, I thought after studies I would go on to become a lawyer and um in and be kind of an environmental conservationist. I think that was the lane I was headed towards. Uh, and it wasn't until I was doing an honors thesis on recycling uh in the athletic department that I had a mentor slide across the job of an outdoor educator and he said, I think you should apply for this. And I said, Well, why would I why would I apply for that? And he said, Well, you would be the director uh here at the university for all of our adventure programs. And I I hadn't even I didn't even know our university had that. I was I was that uh unaware of it. And then off we went, you know, 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Wow, that's incredible. And uh I suppose that mentor you mentioned must have seen some of that leadership capability within you and and just getting into that idea of mentorship or those particular beginning experiences. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about how that guided your your pathway? Because it's one thing someone saying, here's a great opportunity. It's another thing when it's someone of influence in our personal lives giving us that direction. Uh, was there a particular kind of mentor that you mentioned that you know that that maybe guided you in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

I'm so glad you asked that question. Um I actually had just had breakfast with that same mentor. He's 86 years old now, and um, he's a retired athletic director. And um he believed in me. He saw something that I didn't know I had or he knew could be developed. And I think that pattern actually has been a pretty common theme in my life. I've been so privileged to have people reach out and basically say, Jeanette, you can do more. Uh, Jeanette, you can contribute in a different way. Jeanette, you should consider taking this on. And um I think of that both as mentorship or also as sponsorship, which is something that's really, really important for someone to reach back and say, you might not have it figured out, but I I want to open this door. Um, you have to walk through it, but I'm gonna open the door for you. And and that's really what I've been able to do time and time again. And I think we'll probably talk about some of those examples and leaving the university or becoming an executive coach. Literally, every single one of those transitions has been someone helping or seeing something in me that I didn't see in myself.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

And and actually that brings me on to something that I wanted to talk to you about. You are seen as this, you know, incredible leader within the outer education and its associated fields as well. But I wanted to ask, did you always see yourself as that leader? And or and if not, what was that journey like for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah, well, you you flatter me. I I just I didn't ever think I would be in this space. I, you know, I think, you know, when you grow up, you you don't think like, ah, you know, all those things that you were listing off wasn't um what I laid in night, um, I would say dreaming or actually probably being anxious about, to be to be completely honest, you know, when you're when you're navigating your your life's course or thinking about it. You know, I think leadership is something that um I've just had a lot of privilege. And also I say that I remember my father, who is a great mentor, um, he's since passed, as you're probably aware of, because you probably have heard me talk before, but you know, he just said, you know, to who to who you know, much is given, much is expected. And so he just always said, it's it's not about you, Jeanette. It's about it's about what you can do for others. And so I think that actually was the gift of leadership. So I haven't really ever thought about myself as pursuing leadership as much as saying, okay, I've been given uh great physical attributes to be a good athlete. Okay, so how can I help lift up teammates to achieve a common goal? Okay, I've been given access to a great university and the opportunity to take people outdoors. Like, how can I elevate my staff and reach deep into the student body to take more people outside? You know, I've been, I was given the helm of a national nonprofit association, and it was like, well, how can I make lasting change for my for my children selfishly or for those who will follow? So I think the leadership mantle is one that I I proudly will wear. I think I'm I'm designed and built for heavy loads in and carrying that. I I do like that, um, just because I feel like it's in service to others. So so it makes the heavy load light. And it it just feels like such um, I mean, what a privilege to be able to do this good work, really.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah, and and that passion shines through. Like uh, we do this as an audio-only platform, but I'm sat here smiling throughout listening to you talk about that. And I had just written down in my notebook as you were talking, and you just said it as you were finishing your last statement was that idea of uh service leadership, leadership as an act of service to others, and how important it is that if we are the influence that helps create the rising tide, that it does in fact lift all others, and it's really important to keep that in mind as well. But Jeanette, you started your career very much in the field-based leadership. How did you navigate that initial transition, you know, between like being in the field and being an outdoor leader, running programs, to then moving into the kind of organizational and the sectorial leadership that you find yourself in? Because you talk about both of them almost, you know, in the same breadth, but there is some uh differences between them. How did you start to navigate from leading in the field to leading, you know, organizationally?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Um I'm I'm actually I had never really thought about that, Rob. So that's that's kind of a curiosity I'll have to consider. Um, I think maybe I've done it all backwards. And and so doing it, doing it backwards has been a perfect way to go forward. And what I mean by that is maybe because I was started off as a director of that college program at such a young age. I mean, I was running one of the major college programs at 22 years of age, um, you know, doing all the admin work and whatnot, and doing some of the field work um adjacent to that. And it wasn't until I actually had been applying to become a Knowles instructor, but I've been rejected two times. And I actually got my introduction or my invitation to go become an instructor after I'd already secured my full-time job. So usually you go the other way, and I actually had to ask um for time off to go to my instructor course while I already had the job that people aspire to get. And so I think in that way, maybe the seamlessness is part of something that I just do. I mean, I think you're aware I just led an expedition to Belize um about a month and a half ago. Took nine students down there, but that's not really um what a senior assistant director does at the university, but it's that important to me to do that work and fill myself up so I can lead wherever I am. So I'm probably answering your question in a way that's a little bit reverse-engineered, but it's been one of recognizing that the muscle I built in the field um is the same muscle that you have in the office, really. And I think we do do a disservice of trying to separate those things, like saying, you know, I'm only, you know, I'm a greet technical leader over here and I know how to do this stuff, but I I can't do that in the office. That's that's not a true statement. You might just need to spend a little more time working on those Excel sheets or that AI knowledge that maybe most outdoor people aren't excited to use, but it's just like learning how to tie a bowl in, right? Like I have to do that or trying to find declination. Um, I just I can do that in the field, but when I'm in the office, I might need to learn how to deliver a presentation to get the resources that I needed. That's not necessarily muscle I already have built.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Uh no, and I love that. And it's something that as outdoor instructors, and certainly something that I encoted on quite often, is the need for us to help our students to develop comfort in the outdoors through repeated, consistent exposure. That idea, then, as someone who is maybe more hands-on and practical in the outdoors, being able to step back into the office style structure and saying, no, no, I can't do that. No, it's just more repeated, consistent exposure to those systems and those styles. And the fact that you develop them where you had your like organizational leadership, maybe before your field leadership, just once again highlights something that I see consistently is that there is no single correct pathway towards, you know, a career within outdoor education and outdoor leadership or experiential learning for that matter, as well. The amount of variations and different paths that I see people taking to find their way in this field is just incredible.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I would agree with you, but I also want to maybe add for your for your listeners that that's not maybe what I thought out of the gate. So I want to just candidly share, I thought to become, once I realized you could work in the outdoors, I did chase wilderness medicine, I did chase Swift Water Rescue, I did learn, like I started to go through acquiring the skills and again applying multiple times and being rejected from the National Outdoor Leadership School, uh, guiding for the rafting company or wilderness adventures. So I I want to be full disclosure that that I did spend a lot of time thinking, like, ah, if I just knew a couple more things, or if I can lead this summit, then I'll get that next job. I do think our industry pushes that as uh stepping stones, but I think, like you said, maybe many of your um other uh guests have said that's not really the case. So we we probably as an industry have to really reconcile that. Like, what are we telling people they need, and then what is their lived experience to be the best outer educator they can be.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And I do think that we we need to develop more in the way of, you know, maybe consistent pathways as well, because it's not always been there the entire time. But one of the things that you bring up is something that Yun Li Chan, uh, who I serve on the board with offseas for, talked about is that idea of rejection and failure, of not getting into the program or uh going for an instructor certification in our early career and not meeting the standard and getting shot down, and how the impact of failure can actually serve to drive us even further. Like I I just love that. I have so much time for that, and I think it's a skill that we need to remind young people of a lot, and not always young people as well, just maybe people in general that you know, failure does not mean uh the end, it's just a pathway or a gateway to the next next step. What do we do to become better?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Couldn't agree more. I think failure is um, I love failure, and and failure is, I mean, again, I you've heard me speak, but I think failure is truly um where all the magic happens. And so I do think that we can't, we we not only have to tell those that follow our lead that failure is okay, but we also have to like role model and allow them to sit in failure. So we can't just talk out of one side of our mouth and saying and expouse failure is good and you're gonna learn from it if we're always removing the things that are hard. And so, and so we have to allow someone uh to forget their rain jacket and feel the cold and wet. You know, we need to allow someone to not have the fire start and and have to deal with that. There, there we have to allow someone to have to miss out on that experience because they were late, um, because that actually is the true gift. If we can keep on making that, those paths and those bumps minimal, then they're never gonna gain the skills that we're really trying to give them. And I think that's um it's a both and I think at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah, I totally, and but what I will say is you highlighted it in the the beginning of what you started there was failure and then learning. You know, there's this sometimes there can be this misconception. Oh, it's okay if I feel and I feel and I feel and I feel. But one of the things that I highlight with the students that I teach is you're welcome to feel. This is a space where I encourage you to try, and if it doesn't work, that's fine. But the frustration will come in from the people who are facilitating those experiences is if you continue to make mistakes and never learn from them. And there is a distinct difference, right? You know, failure is encouraged when effort is involved. Just moving on now, uh Jeanette, I want to talk a little bit about the the book that you authored, uh, The Outdoor Leader, Resilience, Integrity, and Adventure. When you use the term outdoor leader, what is it that you see that that encompasses?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

That's that's such a great question. Um, you know, I think in being asked to write the book, which was such a unique way of being um invited to to give something back, you know, I think that that was um something that was a unique experience to be approached by the publisher to to move that message forward. I think they chose that title to represent that it wasn't just a technical space, right? It wasn't like a how-to book, right? That's I think the the tagline. It's not a how-to, it's a how you. And so I think it's this invitation of opening up this outdoor space, which has been and does continue to be pretty exclusive, right? We we do sometimes put people in these buckets of water sports, paddle sports, snow sports, and you have to have all these technical competencies. Well, really, that we're learning that people have really positive connections to natures in lots of different ways. And so if you are leading outdoors or if you are having experiences outdoors and taking that leadership skills back to your home or into your school or into your workplace, like that's the gift of the outdoor leader. It's just it's the classroom in which someone is learning.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

No, I think that's incredible. And so often we focus on the ideas of like technical competence, risk management, group control. But your book really focuses on resilience, grit, integrity, all the you know, decision-making capabilities. What do you think they are the qualities that are really central to good leadership in the outdoors?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, both to the outdoors or really, anyways. I just think that that really what the outdoors does is it allows us to practice leadership of ourself and of groups in an environment where we get direct feedback. And so I think that's actually the brilliance of outdoor leading and outdoor leadership, is that if you're not communicating well, you don't navigate the group together, you don't build community, you don't reach the goal that you're trying to set, you don't set expectations. If you can't um listen well, then you can't be aware of what the needs are of people in your group. Um, if you don't recognize the challenges that someone is navigating, uh physically or emotionally, mentally out there, it doesn't matter how far you need to go because you're not going to get there. And so that's actually really what the book is about and what leadership and those skills, those soft, those non-technical skills I think that we often put in our in our industry is that all those things I just said, Rob, you you did today at your job, and I'm going to do at my job today. We work and live in environments where you can hide away from the results. Like if you don't communicate well, you can just resend the email and CC four more people. And that still doesn't get the job done, but but that's a form of communication. If you don't communicate to your group in the field, you might not reach that quadrangle spot, you might not reach the summit, you might not reach the end goal in a space that you can't use technology or hide from the outcome. I think that's I think that's really why those things are so poignant.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

I and just as you were talking, the thing that kept ringing in my head is the consequence is higher, right? The consequence of per decision making, the consequence of inaction of per communication can be so much higher in the outdoors than it is in the boardroom. Or maybe not always, but oftentimes, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, and I I do like the word higher, Rob, but I almost might I wish we could maybe find or or work to find a different word. Um it's eminent, right? Maybe that's the better word. So yes, the consequence is higher in a high risk environment, right? If we're uh trying to navigate um, you know, a water crossing or something like that, then yes, that then it very much is. But um if we don't communicate with the student group where to meet, they're not gonna get there. Like it's it's um that that's a that's a mistake of our communication. And so when you again, when you are hiding behind a phone or at a desk or with lighting that comes on and water that is coming out of a tap, you don't, you know, those eminent things are just secondary. They're nuances, they're they're they're um annoyances in the front country, in the back country, they're basic needs. If you don't have water, um, you know, there's there's repercussions to that. If you don't take care of your feet, there are repercussions to that. And I think that's that's again, maybe I like the word maybe um eminent versus um higher consequences, depending on what sport or activity you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

No, I definitely agree with you. I think that's it's a it's a wonderful distinction to make. But if I shift the focus back now, uh thinking about surely within the outdoors, what is it you you feel Jeanette separates someone who is competent in the outdoors versus someone who is genuinely ready to lead others?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

That seems like a trick question, uh, which I uh take on. You know, probably like we won't know until someone until someone tries their hand in some ways. And we have to let someone try their hand and be okay with the learning experience that they'll get from that, right? So I think we have to allow someone to be leader of the day or be a young professional stepping into a leadership role, and they're gonna have success and they're gonna have mistakes. But if they can learn from the mistakes for the second expedition or the second experience and show those incremental steps, then I think they're ready to lead, right? I would rather lead with someone who is open and willing to make change and be dynamic rather than um complacent. So I think consistency is good, but I think complacency is is not as great. And I think that leads to trouble. So, you know, I think I think we just need to let people try their hands. At the end of the day, and not just a fool's errand, but I think we just have to, there's gonna be no checklist we can develop to prove that someone is an okay leader in that way.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I think it's a fantastic answer, and it maybe plays so much to why organizations like Knowles do so well. They allow people to develop competency and then into leadership. We see a lot of our North American guests and listeners talking about organizations like Knowles that have created those experiences for them in the past to find the leadership capabilities within themselves whenever they didn't know they necessarily existed in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yeah, think about a small group that's out. You know, if you have a group of 10 leaders or aspiring leaders, you're going to have the people that we generally kind of call the all-stars, right? The ones that kind of rise to the top. But I think that I've learned through my career that they're not always the best leader. They're just maybe the most vocal or the most dominant. And I think that if we look at numbers, you know, seven, eight, and nine and invite them to lead, we can actually have two different things that can happen. So the ones that are maybe more quiet or have other attributes and let them be the leaders first. I can actually then see if those dominant leaders have the ability to be a good listener and actually become like that's actually their leadership journey is checking their ego, holding their tongue, and being an active follower. And I think that's actually maybe what our industry can maybe even do a better job of of like inviting, just like in mentorship, the people that we want often reach towards first to lead us, because I think we've got much more to gain from them than following the same dominant personalities and perspectives and whatnot. We we've got a lot of those people, and they're good, they're not bad, but those are the ones I think you and I have seen over time. Their maturation is learning how to not be in the front. Their maturation is being vulnerable, their maturation is becoming a better listener. Where other people, their their maturation is um confidence or connecting with people or um being the first to go rather than the last to go.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

That's such a fantastic insight into that, and something that I can appreciate having gone through that journey in different places in different ways. Some places stepping in and being very vocal, and other places stepping in and feeling slightly intimidated at the beginning and trying to find my voice in those spaces as well. And that's the thing, the the vocal person, the confident person in one space might not be that way in the other space as well. And allowing for I suppose the complexity of of being a human being as well and trying trying to find our space and place within those well in this conversation within those outdoor spaces. But I think it could be the same if you're if you're in the classroom or if you're in the boardroom, trying to find how you fit and how you can actively contribute in in the way that is natural for you, but is still trying to push your boundaries a little bit as well. I think that's fantastic. Thanks to your sponsors at Cast Connected. Cast, our creativity, activity, and service, forms a key part of many international school programs around the world. The team at Cast Connected helps educators move beyond the logs with workshops, practical resources, and one-to-one coaching sessions that support meaningful cast and community engagement in schools. For anyone trying to get to grips with Cast or wanting to make it feel more purposeful and alive, visit CastConnected.com. Jeanette, a lot of your work it seems to focus on this idea of like resilience and grit. They seem to be a couple of the central themes that I pull from your work. In outdoor education, those words can be powerful. Sometimes they can be used too frequently, sometimes they can be misunderstood. For you, what does that idea of resilience and how that presents itself? What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I like to think about resilience as um moving into a space, either physically or emotionally uh or mentally, that is challenging and tough. But if I chip away at it and make measurable benchmarks along the way, I'll be able to move through it. And so it's it's hard. I want to quit. I want to give up. I want to be done. Um, but if I can stick with it, um, I can move through it. And so I think resilience and grit, I don't want to use them simultaneously, but kind of it's it's working through the hard. And it's it's really the understanding is that I can do this this tough thing that's in front of me. I can figure this out and I'm gonna chip away at it. And my timeline will be my timeline, and I'll achieve the success um as a define for myself when I get there and and how I get there. And I think that's very much different than toughing it out. I think toughing it out is um a very much more I chose to go light and fast and not bring the right gear, and I'm miserable because of decisions I've made, and I'm going to just push through, even though it's it's really bad, and I'm gonna put someone else at risk. You know, I'm I'm I'm not really thinking about that. I think that's that's tough, right? You know, I think resilience is setting up your tent in the rainfall fly isn't there and or is misplaced or something like that, and it's gonna be a cold, long night, you know, and and you just have to kind of deal with something and share something and spread things around, is where I'm going with that.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

I think it's so key, and I'm always brought back to this idea of resilience and the definition of it and or how we define it, maybe is more important. Sometimes people equate resilience to suffering. I don't think that's what it is. You know, again, that's that idea of toughing it out. I consider resilience much more this idea of adapting. And and I if we think about that in the terms like the example that you give, okay, I've forgot my fly sheet or I didn't pack it, I'm gonna have a tough night. How can I adapt to make this serve myself? But if we think about it and we pull it out over the long term, one of the things that we see that maybe some people attribute to resilience is just keep going, just keep going, just keep going, toughing it out instead of, and you know, maybe feeling and coming back up, feeling and coming back up. Whereas for me, I see true resilience is okay. I feel it, I've come back up, I've tried again, I feel it, I've come back up. Okay, now at this point, what can I do to put in some control measures to stop me feeling again? That's the mark of true resilience. That is adaptability, that is how we stop ourselves from dealing with suffering, dealing with, you know, just toughing it out. And and I think it's a distinction that is sometimes lost within our field.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yep. I I couldn't agree with you more. You know, I think that somehow they've just been meshed together because I think our egos in our field are trying to accomplish or conquer something. That's why the toughness put in there. Like if I just go a little further or I'm going to get this summit or I'm going to do this thing, like I'm being tough and I've beaten the thing, where I think resilience is like the lessons that come along the way. You know, like it's it's the I have this goal of climbing this thing. I'm gonna break apart my training plan. It's I'm working hard at it. I've had some setbacks, but I'm gonna keep on training, I'm gonna modify uh because I know the climb is going to be hard. Um, but I'm I'm willing to do the work over the five, six, seven months to get to that spot. And I'm building resilience along that way. I can do a little bit more each day. I can accommodate each day, where I think again, that toughness is more of that fool's errand and more ego-driven is what I see. So maybe now that we're talking through it, you know, resilience is more reflection and confidence, and uh toughness is more ego and arrogance.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. But as outdoor educators, sometimes we find ourselves with the task of trying to provide challenge. I think one of the things as an industry that maybe we can uh struggle with, and sometimes this depends on the participant group that we have, the instructor in charge, the program director, but where do we find the point between purposeful challenge and unnecessary hardship?

SPEAKER_00 30:46

My mind just had a whole bunch of different thoughts, right? Because I I think the false creation of adversity is um it's performative, right? And and so I think that's what we're not trying to do. So my mind actually just popped to examples of I led an expedition to Norway last year, and it was very, very different for both me and for the participants because I chose to lead in a different way. So rather than being the one who is teaching the outdoor skills, I made it very clear that this was a leadership expedition that was using the outdoors. And so, even in things like where the trip started from and what equipment, people had the equipment list, people knew the location, but they had to figure out how to get there. They had to navigate uh to the foreign country, to the hotel. They needed to look through the packing list. And these again are people who've never been outdoors before. I did provide virtual pre-trip meetings to go over, you know, give examples because some of our equipment can be, you know, not common, you know, like the difference between water resistance and water repellent, for example, in Norway. And I could talk about what type of boots I'm going to wear and what's the difference between trail runners and hikers and what was important to have a full last because of the rocky terrain, you know, like I can say those words, but it really was the students' experience of how they chose to prepare to come up there. So some of them created their own adversity out of the gates by not even doing the preparation, and that was the gift for them. I didn't even have to make it hard because they showed up with inadequate gear. And so that actually was the beauty of it all, is that I didn't have to falsely lead, you know, day one, we're not gonna hike 20 kilometers just to say how hard we are. Like you've got the wrong footwear. Any sort of mileage is gonna be hard for you. And so I think that's the beautiful part of it. Like, it's not just taking your kids outside and saying we're doing this zip line or this high adventure course and it's going to be hard and you're gonna work through it. You know, for some kids, it truly could be what they need to bring, and that like we're gonna ask you to pack your own bag and not have your parents or your helpers or someone else do that for you. And we're gonna do a gear check down. And if you don't have the right things, you won't be able to participate today. Like, that's its own gift of adversity before you even have set foot on the course.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

I love a lot of what you're saying there. The thing that I come back to, where does the difficulty then lie in engaging young people who confuse discomfort with hardship? Because I can see how discomfort could come across to a young person. And I say young person, it could be anybody, but so much of the work that we do is with young people, in that someone who has never experienced discomfort could equate that to hardship. How do we then help them to understand the difference between the two?

SPEAKER_00 33:39

My answer would be this, Rob, and you may have heard me say this previously uh in a statement that I talked about my own two children, and that is we allow my husband and I let our kids make any decision they want to make. They just have to sit and live with the consequences. And that's aside from drinking water as a family when we are when we're traveling or hiking and everyone's gonna drink water because I'm not dealing with uh dehydration or bad attitudes. Um, we we talk about that. So I lead that as my answer because if you let your students know, I we we trust you. I trust you. And you get to make a decision of what you're gonna bring. Here's the recommended packing list. Um, but if you don't have the things that uh meet the safety criteria or things, you will have a different experience. We are gonna stay outside in the weather, in the whatever, but that's that's all we can do. You know, we can't take away the experiential part of experiential learning from these kids. And so we have to let them sit in that discomfort and let them let them know that it's gonna be a visitor. But that visitor can be with them for a short amount of time or a long amount of time, and they can make peace with their visitor, or they can have um you know, bad conversation in their head, but but they're actually talking and learning with themselves upon reflection. So I think that would be my answer. You know, I I went a little bit of a different way, maybe to answer the same question, you know, like it is gonna be discomfort, uh, there's gonna be some hardship, but we fully anticipate it. And and you're right. And here are some things that you can do to mitigate it. And and um even if you do have all the right gear, you still might be cold, you still might be wet, you know, you you might not reach the top, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

As you were talking, I was brought to the idea of some framing in terms of how we look at feelings and emotions, and it's very much the difference between saying, and again, in a similar way, is I I'm feeling sad versus I am sad, right? What one one is something that that is upon us for a short period of time, and the other one is something that inhabits our entire being. And I think that that's a little bit about, you know, I am experiencing uh discomfort and I can sit with this to I am uncomfortable, I and I can't I can't be here. And I think maybe just that that use of language around our learners as well could be could be a helpful thing in in framing things for context. You know, I'm a big believer in the ability to to sit with discomfort and how we can transfer that through to different aspects of our life. You know, it it's uncomfortable to be standing in front of a a group of you know 100 people giving a presentation. Uh, it can be very uncomfortable to be uh sitting down in the dirt for for some young people as well. But if we could do one, we can probably do the other, and which is what I try to remind my students of often.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

You're 100% right. You know, I think I think we also have to think about what the end game here is, right? So these young, impressionable people and our staff that are also that we lead to help these young people, um the end game is to make better people, right? And to make better people um means that if their goal or their aspiration is to be a doctor or a lawyer or a dentist or a stay-at-home dad or whatever it is, there is going to be some adversity in that role, right? Every surgery does not end a result. Every case that is practiced in front of a judge isn't one. You know, every time you parenting parents, we just we get a lot of things wrong. But the reason that we're doing this, you know, experientially now in elementary school or middle school or or wherever you are in your learner's curve is to learn that when you hit something hard or unknown, that the world doesn't end. What you get to learn about yourself is like, I might need to try something else or I need to work through this. And so maybe there's that connection. And again, it might just be words, right? We don't need to be too meta for a middle schooler, but at the same time, we have to maybe make our experiences that we're giving them, the ropes course, the low ropes facilitation, the overnight uh without a parent or something like that that is connected to something bigger. And we have to just tell you are going to fail, you're gonna fall down, you're not gonna get the scholarship, you're not gonna get into the school, you're not gonna get the grades that you want. This is going to happen. But what is most important to us as a mentor, as a leader, is that I'm gonna help you pick yourself up. I'm gonna teach you that you can do it again. I'm gonna teach you that you can reroute. And I'm gonna teach you through that, through this fun activities that we have planned for you. That's that's really the gift we're giving them uh at the end of the day. And so I think that's why going back to with our kids or with working with young people, failure and decision making is like, I'm not gonna be there for all their decisions. Like, my job is to push as many decisions to the people below me because I it's not about me, it's about them. So I just need to teach them that things happen and on we go.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

That's wonderful. And it's a lovely segue to our next topic. We talk about that idea of communication and how we speak and how we frame things for other people. A lot of the work that you do in your coaching and and in your leadership style as well places a really strong emphasis on listening and communication. How does good communication change before, during, and after the Oidur experience?

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Um, my answer would be through my professional development experiences. One of the most powerful ones I received was at a conference, and there was a speaker uh who talked about candid culture. And the whole theme was ask more and assume less. And I think I hadn't really realized what she was trying to share with me is that we make a lot of assumptions through our biased worldview of what we want and what other people need and what they're trying to say. And so I think communication for me before, during, and after is always being curious and really trying to hear what problem we're trying to solve, really trying to make sure we understand the information that we have to work with, understanding if the decision makers are in the room or not, um, and being really clear to everyone what the expectations are. So I think that might be how I would answer the before, during, and after is expect and then inspect, right? So this is what I expect out of everyone in checking in on something. Or um, you know, you know, are are we all ready to go? Or, you know, who is not ready, right? You know, or those those other wordings and not get to critical mass in our assumptions, um, but but really trying to make sure that everyone has a voice and that everyone is being heard.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

No, I I love that. And whenever I was writing that question and thinking about it myself, I I thought it would be the difference between how you might act whenever you first meet your group, a lot of kind of top-down, right? We need we need this, we need this, we need this, we need this, and then that slow transition of power and accountability towards them. And I suppose it depends on the kind of program that you're leading, but I love that idea of inspect and then expect. That's that's a really fantastic way of framing that in a really simple way, and hopefully something that our listeners can can take away and put into their practice as well. One of the things that we're expected of, though, Jeanette, as outdoor leaders, is to be able to build trust quickly, especially with those participants who will be anxious or inexperienced of unsure whether they belong in that space. What are some of the things that you've done on the expeditions that you've you've led to help build trust quickly that might be a great little takeaway for some of the practitioners or the facilitators who are listening here?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Some of the new things that I'm doing in my leadership or have brought in in this is um thanking people for being here and literally going up one-to-one and just inviting them in. Not just a I hi I'm Jeanette, but like, Rob, you know, like it's so great to see you. I love the shirt you're wearing. You know, is there a story behind that? And in really seeing the full person or finding something that's unique about them that they're willing to share. Along with that, is I've been really working on not trying to start with the common things. Where are you from? What have you achieved? What degree do you have, or what school are you in, or what do you want to be when you grow up, but really asking things of like what brings you joy, or um, what's a book you've read recently, or something that's humanizing them. And I think then that person recognizes that I truly am asking something that's not performative, and that I'm not going to limit my view of them to a label or something they've demonstrated or where they stand in the pecking order. You know, I might be working with a person who's in the back, right? And like those are people I need to be really aware of as a pretty as an extroverted personality. I need to really not meet them at the same level of energy, right? So, so that's that's sitting down next to them and saying, you know, why did you choose to come on this? Or, you know, what are you, what are you most excited about? Or, you know, gosh, you know, like my back's been bothering me, you know, and I'm I'm kind of nervous about this hike and and I'm feeling feel like I hope I can keep up with you guys, you know, just just really being a human. And I think that's allowing me to build more trust in a different way than I historically have done.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Everything that you're talking about, and something that I I try to do quite a lot is five to ten minutes at the beginning to connect with a person, have a chat, and then move on to what you've got to do because everybody's coming in in a different mind space, and it helps whenever you can connect to that person uh somewhat authentically within the short period of time that you have before you can move on. Go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Yeah, I was gonna say I think another, you know, physicality part of it with some of these activities, and you know, again, I I um I just I talked pretty candid about my stature. Uh, you know, I'm a six two woman, and that's not common uh, anyways, you know, and I and I'm definitely am built and look like an athlete. And so I think coming into these spaces and especially for the young women and young men that I might be leading, you know, I have to, that's a power. Uh and I need to be really careful how I wield that. And I also do have lots of injuries. So that's not anything I I try to hide, but I actually role model like, can someone help me get my backpack on? Because twisting with someone who said back surgery isn't great. And so I think it's just setting this tone of don't judge a book by its cover, you know, letting letting people do that and being really intentional with that. Like that's something that I've always kind of played on and pushed on, just like it's been, I often I I always lead, you know, with men, except for one or two of these all female expeditions. And in it's my expectation that that man I'm working with is the one who is doing the bathroom conversation and they're in charge of the kitchen. Right. So just removing this whole thing that is so easy for us to fall into these gendered roles and I don't even think about them anymore. And just not even making it a big deal makes it even a less big deal. And I think culturally the students start to see that. So I think that's how we support each other in the field that the students start to see that, you know, those are that might not be typical in their households or in their school environment or whatnot, but that's something that is equal in the outdoors.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Something that I've long been passionate about is the role of the hidden curriculum. What we're teaching when we're not teaching so the the typical one is if you've got a uh physical job to do, especially and this happens all the time in schools, I say it all the time we send the boys to take care of the physical thing and the more softer role of tidying up or brushing up that will go to the girls and I am very specific about not letting that come into my pedagogy at all. So everyone lifts the kayaks everyone washes down the kit everyone does everything the same because there is not much difference between us and there shouldn't be any difference anyway.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

You know so let's just I I think this I really want to hit this point home and let's just say that we encourage um the young women on on a program or whatever late age women to do some of those more physical right we just kind of talked about that. But then I think it's really important with the leadership team so when those girls falter because that's not a a not a space they're often in is not to rescue right away. So when they struggle to put the canoe up because they haven't been asked to do that, let them work it out. Let them struggle let them figure that out and at the same time as the young men are in the kitchen or cleaning up celebrate and actually even using words like um gosh it looks like you're not familiar with how to do these things. I'm so glad you're trying and you know this will be so great. You know you can really think about what's putting into your body for nutrition and think about the needs of people in your cook group you're going to be a great leader or gosh you know the campsite it doesn't really you know do you do you really think this is clean and clear and it's okay that you didn't like actually like calling it out and not making it okay that's that um feigned incompetency. I think you know we talked about that in relationships, right? Like I do that to my husband like ah you know I'm not I didn't read all the emails from the school because I don't do details like there's a um a word for that and I I just I wanted to push on that because I think it needs to be a full sentence when we allow these young people to do something outdoors and see it all the way through that we don't swoop in and fix the problem for the girls who are doing trying physicality for maybe the first time and we don't swoop in and save the uncomfortableness for young men who are like I never thought about cooking for the group um we have to let them sit in that. So they're like there's more to cooking than I realized or there is more problem solving to moving these canoes than I realized. And that that levels the respect for them of their peers and I think that's the gift.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

One of the best ways that I've certainly personally experienced that is through slightly longer format expedition periods. Several years ago within the organization I work for at the moment I was asked how do we make our outdoor experiences more transformative and it took me about 30 seconds to probably less 10 seconds to answer the question able is we make them longer. There's obviously more things that we can do to to create a more transformative experience. Sometimes we're we're held by timetables and curriculum schedules and all the rest but if we do really value these experiences the five day standard international school camp period because day one you arrive and in day five you're leaving so you've really got you know a three day camp in the middle of it there's very little time for us to to work with young people whereas I've seen huge changes by just adding you know three or four days onto the top of that. Once you go over a week away a week of prolonged engaged activity the transformation that can take take hold and really impact young people is is huge especially because you then have the time you're not beholden to oh we've got to get this activity done by this stage so we can move on to the lunch and we can move on to the next activity well if it takes this long to get the job done it takes this long to get the job done because you're not under so much time constraints. So maybe for some of our listeners who find themselves how do we how do we make these things stick when we're held by time pressures is remove the time pressures. That's right I think you get the answer so Jeanette we've talked a lot about the role the communication plays the role of the instructor in helping to break down barriers but when I think about how we look towards continued professionalization of the outdoor sector I think it has come a long way in the last 25 years but I still think that there's uh a little while to go. You've spent a significant part of your career helping outdoor professionals connect with your work with AOR uh developing and raising standards. What does professionalization mean to you within that outdoor education and recreation sector at this moment in time?

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Yeah I think it's um I think that's the the rising goal is to make sure that our industry and the professionals who build it support support it and lead it are seen as professionals, right? So we I just used that word three times but what that means to me is like fair and equitable pay and compensation. It means um you know when people look or ask what I do for a living that they recognize what it is and that it's not just play or it's not just renting coolers or it's not just you know adventure or you're so lucky. I am lucky but I also want it to be looked upon as something that adds value and is is seen as a contributor to society and to people and to the economy and all the things that other jobs and sectors do. So I think the professionalization means that transition of like what is nice to have to what is needed to have.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

And I think in a world that's filled with technology and filled with consumerism and is filled with consumption and can fill with um competition that reconnecting with nature and with people and self-confidence and competence really is is one of the the strongest professions you could be in but we need to make sure that people are are paid fairly and equitably that the work conditions are good all the things that it that a real profession has and and requires and I think it's something that highlighted at the offseas keynote speeches both by Brandon Munge and by Nick Cotton this year is that idea of further professionalization of the industry and I think you highlighted it really well. One of the things that can happen though when we continue the professionalization of the industry sectors is that they set part of the risk in that is that they become overly bureaucratic. They start to become inaccessible because they start to become more expensive. How do we try to bridge the professionalization of the industry without becoming disconnected from the people that we need to serve the most Yeah well I guess the first question I would ask is like why do we need to be on this journey alone right and so I think this isn't just our problem to solve.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

And so when I think about who you work for um in your schools or in your workplaces, you know, they should be the biggest advocate for a salary that is commensurate with experience and expertise, right? And it is up to all of us to do that work. It's not just the people who are leading the expeditions or the practitioners or the academics in that space to say, hey, this is what we need. It's everyone to be part of that conversation to not see this as being paid in sunrises and sunsets. We have to make sure that our industry isn't just seen as something that's transitional, right? Something that a young person or a middle aged person who doesn't have a partner or little people or animals you know can can just do for a little bit and have the uncomfortabless of not compensated seasonal work. It needs to be validated in full. And we also have to make sure that the economy and the market bears that so we have to say that this is what a weekend expedition cost and this is what these are all the expenses that are included in that without diluting the product or service. And so I think that actually is the biggest and most uncomfortable conversation uh Rob that that I started to have and people are having and you alluded to other people at off season otherwise is is that gets that gets uncomfortable because administration has been getting away with it. Jobs and colleges and universities have been getting away with it, you know, the govern the private sector, the public sector is like ah we can pay this low rate and we'll just find the next person. And that's what keeps us in this purgatory of not being able to say that my career and my choices are every bit as valid as a marketing person or communications or whatnot that that is paying into a bigger system. So a little bit I mean I get pretty passionate about this is that everyone maybe looks at us like it's our problem to solve and if I happen to get paid more that the trip prices go up so I'm being exclusive it's a both it's a yes and you know so maybe you need to find another place that is a revenue stream to offset um the expenses of a high touch impactful program that I'm running is. And that that is a discussion for both of us to have but just because I'm not putting you know 50 kids on the pitch and having a gym class for an hour you know like that and and on the hour I'm taking 10 kids out for five days there is value to that um that can't be um put in a KPI you know you can't put that those 10 kids are the same as those 50 kids because they're two different experiences. And we as an industry are being forced to use language that is antiquated in benchmarks that just don't suit us.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

I think part of the the issue that we face is the results of the experience do not present themselves on the people that we welcome into our programs for a year, five years, 10 years or longer you know it that is something that we use so often is that quite often when we take a young person or a participant into our programs, all we're doing is sowing the seed for something that may blossom many many months or many years from now as well. So presenting the value of something like that to uh consumers can be difficult especially in a society that values instant gratification type one fun when we're offering most of the time very much type two fun where it's you'll enjoy this but you'll enjoy it uh after it's finished.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Yeah so I think that's where we also need to mature as an industry is understanding what the metrics are and learn how to write them ourselves. And so if we are finding out that employers are able to have better job retention of employees who've had these experiences because you know whatever gener I get I get lost in the names of millennials or this or that but like kids are flaky or my first tire I've had to turn over and I'm losing money on staff because they have no grit and resilience. If we can connect the dots to employers and saying people who have had these experiences tend to be able to work through challenges at you know 25, 26 or mid-30s, that actually adds to the bottom line, right? So so we have to maybe find those ways to connect the dots to pull people who have had programs or whatnot. So we have to become curious and better listeners just things that we talk about doing on expedition of what the measures are for our economies and and powers that be in legislation and we need to infuse our work into those spaces um to you know be the antidote to the bureaucracy I think of what people do fear of like it becoming more bureaucratic.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

So we need to we need to um not play the game we need to help write the rules that's a fantastic way of putting it Jeanette so with that in mind what role do you see associations like AOR or Offsees playing in building not just the standards and the community identity but helping move us towards a kind of shared purpose in moving that you you mentioned how we have to stop acting as individuals where does that community development start to push and what role do those organizations have?

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Yeah I love this topic because I I I love I love uh association work so off seas or AOR or AEE or you name it right that mission driven work is imperative to help us get over ourselves. So each of us run these programs or teach these classes and our own little fiefdom of where you work and all as you can think about because we are selfish by nature of trying to get ours, trying to get more resources, trying to get more staff, whatever, when we go to these organizations we start to have that common language and we can leverage the critical mass, right? We can kind of say this is a common experience among schools in my area or programs in my area and here are larger numbers that are collectively experiencing them and allows that voice to be unified and louder, I think, and have more influence and sway. So I think that's why I just love nonprofit or groups of people coming together is they start to realize there's so much more to gain and if I can volunteer my time in service of this organization, if I can contribute in this way presenting at a conference or having a thought leader group or being on a steering committee or writing legislation or proposing a path forward, then I actually get to have a hand in it. So so I think that's how that works is people saying this is part of the work and part of the job is leadership towards professionalization of my industry and that all of us can't just sit around and complain about not getting what we want if we're not actually willing to give a little bit more upfront.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

That's so rich and so wonderful. Thank you so much for such a thoughtful answer. Jeanette I want to come towards your organization uh leading valiantly we've talked about the influence of your book it has had on the kind of industry and the and the practice and and your own thought leadership. If you think about the coaching and the leadership development you've done as part of leading valiantly where do you notice the patterns coming in across leaders of organizations?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Well you you probably wouldn't be surprised that the leaders that I've had a chance to work with so when I became when I executive coach people it's the ones who come to me and say I don't have it figured out but I want to get better it's the ones who come to me with humility and also just say I want to make my team better. I want to make my staff better and those are the ones you know that that need it the least but have most the most impact it's the ones who are choosing not to get better like the ones that hold the big position the ones who are the lead person and they just think they have it figured out and they don't recognize that that they are like unconsciously incompetent in that way. And so the commonality that I've found are people who are hungry who are looking on they're they're generous of their time and spirit um they're willing to like look at the I mean executive coaching is all about asking how can I be better? It's not like it's not consulting work. It's not um fixing something it's basically letting someone have a conversation saying I don't think I showed up best for my staff last week. And um and what I realized is that I'm I'm not leading well. And I think that's because I'm not prepared or gosh you know I I realize that I haven't done a great job delegating and so let's work on delegation. And so I think that's that's the people who I have found um crave it the most and get the most value out of out of executive coaching. That's really interesting to hear that from your perspective and how people show up what was it that drew you towards this component of your work I'm laughing a little bit because we talked at the intro about mentorship and sponsorship but I was actually in Costa Rica um leading an expedition with some colleagues actually the country of Costa Rica invited us down to see if we were going to start an AOR down there. So a couple other thought leaders from AOR were invited to come down and have conversations uh and I was having coffee uh early one morning um with a colleague and I said you know I'm thinking about going back to get my doctorate and he looked at me he goes I'm gonna stop you right there and he said you do not need any more uh school but you would be a brilliant executive coach and and um and I hadn't again I didn't even know you could be an executive coach you know and so I I got curious I learned what that was and he says you you actually do this all the time for the people around you um this would be of value um to others if if you could help other people lead and and connect with people um through their struggles and and celebrate their successes. So yet again a mentor sponsor opportunity where someone saw something in me that I didn't believe I had um to to help me serve more people.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

That's amazing and I just want to uh tear through a few quickfire questions that maybe will be helpful to our audience as well with your coaching and the range of roles that you've had over time what is the one leadership quality that you feel is underrated vulnerability. I have to agree I think that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Why is it you think that you've seen me speak you've seen me show emotion rewrite what it looks like to be a strong formidable leader and I think you probably wouldn't define it as someone giving a keynote who's crying on stage talking about the things they're they're passionate about. But what that shows you is that um you know I s I see it I want it and um it's not performative I love that that's really wonderful. What do you think is one habit that every outdoor leader should develop not vulnerability um I I believe um like reflection or journaling um or however someone makes time for that um I think is a a really powerful thing to slow down and be present. I have a really hard time being present when I'm not in the backcountry and it's something that has been really hard for me for 30 years. I just am an all-in personality I think I've been described as like a four-wheel drive truck stuck in four-wheel drive and and I just um I just go and I'm relentless and and and yet somehow when I'm outdoors um I actually take care of myself and uh I eat well and I rest and I show up as a better leader. And journaling is how I'm trying to do that every day is setting that you know I've been really consistent this last year um of journaling in the front country journaling every morning um is what I'm trying to do. So I I would that's creating space for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

I love that I think I'll I'll maybe need to start that myself I've certainly been described in similar manners as well and that idea of showing up whenever we're not taken away in some abstract place but we are just in the day to day well that's uh that's really stuck with me. Thank you for that. If we can just as we come towards the end as well if you had one piece of advice for a young person starting out in the field what would that be Jeanette? Uh fail as much as you can super Jeanette where can our listeners find out a little bit more about your book and uh your work at Leading Valiantly uh you can find uh more information about me and about leading valiantly at leadingvaliantly.com and Instagram hand handle uh leading valiantly great Jeanette thank you so much for your your time and your insight it's been such a wonderful conversation thank you so much for the opportunity to be here it's been a really great reminder about the concepts of integrity judgment listening are as much as if not more important than the technical competence that so many people associate with outdoor leadership and being in this space. For our listeners you'll find the links to Jeanette's book and leading valiantly in the show notes and if you've enjoyed this episode please help us grow by liking subscribing and sharing the outdoor education podcast special thanks to Gus Merkel for today's show production you'll find all the details and links in the show notes and if you've enjoyed today's conversation please like subscribe and share the Outdoor Education podcast to help us reach even more people who care about outdoor and experiential learning