Pastor, Friend, or Both? When ministry gets personal: navigating friendship, boundaries, and trust in pastoral life.

In this episode of Two Pastors One Calling, Pastor Chris and Father Brian dive into the complicated reality of “dual relationships” in ministry—when pastors are not only spiritual leaders, but also friends, mentors, coworkers, and trusted confidants. Through honest conversation, they explore boundaries, expectations, trust, and the challenge of being both relational and responsible while caring for others. A candid look at the humanity behind pastoral leadership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome back to Two Pastors One Calling. I'm Pastor Chris here with my good buddy Father Brian Phelps. We're excited to have you join us this episode. Also, want to just give a quick shout-out for all those that are regularly listening. Thank you for your encouragement. We've heard from you either in person or sometimes an email or text, and we just really appreciate it. We hope that uh as we have these conversations, that we are being a blessing. We know you are a blessing to us, so thank you so much. Uh today's episode is kind of exciting. We're continuing, kind of talking about some more personal things, specifically friendships and relationships uh within the church, and we're gonna use a term you've probably heard before, uh this dual relationship. So that means, hey, you're my friend, but you're also a parishioner. Uh you're my friend, but you're also a staff member. I mean, there's a lot of and I feel like even as we've talked and gotten to know each other, there's a lot of dual relationships is the right term, right? Is there another way to say it? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

That's right. That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So uh with that, let me start out by asking you to just define that. Like as clearly as possible, what would you say for you is a dual relationship? I gave a few examples, but why is it a dual relationship?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

I mean a dual relationship is is a is someone where you have more than one type of relationship with.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

And I think that would be anything from professional and friendship as well as professional or um or personal, maybe family member. So there that's those are dual relationships where like there's a personal somehow as well as a professional, or or as a ministerial as well. So like, you know, some like so if you're a staff member, I may, I may be your supervisor or maybe your boss or a co-worker, but then outside of work, it may be friends, yeah. You know, and and or if I'm ministering to somebody, you know, I may be ministering to you, but then all of a sudden we could be be friends as well. Or, you know, a family member. There could be you can have a family member and then also uh have a professional or ministerial relationship as well. So I think those that dual relationship covers a relationship that has more than two different types of styles of relationship within it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Does that make sense? It does. That's a great definition. So let me ask, I always like to try to ask you hard questions, and you never flinch. So we'll see if I can but do you feel like in church you have any relationships that aren't dual relationships?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I mean, there's some there are some that are just ministerial only. Okay, where people come to mass or come come to church and and you're and you're their pastor, and then you know, and you may be you may talk and be kind and all those things, but it that's as far as it goes. Yep. Just my pastor, just my pastor, got or or someone that works for you. This person is my boss, okay. You know, which I I must admit that I don't like that because you know, you because when you work for the church or or do ministry, you want to be able to have a good relationship. You have a you know, not so much you have to be big friends with everybody, but you have a good working relationship as well as actually having a good relationship in general. So, you know, so I think so there there are some people where you only have one relationship with, or like um, you know, uh like we we have um like we have different pastors, uh priests around us too. Sometimes all it is is just he's the pastor of the church over there, I'm pastor of the church over here. We'll work together, but that's about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Yeah, more like professionals. Yeah, professional, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

So I think there are definitely some that are just was a single style of relationship. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

So I think one thing I wanted us to kind of talk about today, and uh I don't know if this will be insightful or not, but the question is kind of like how how hard is it for us to have relationships as pastors?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I think it it can be tough because um because of boundaries and because of expectations.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I think that that you you have to understand what the boundary of a relationship is, not in a negative sense, but in a sense of going, let's say you have someone that's a family member, and you know, let's say I'm doing a wedding for a family member. Okay, or a funeral, you know, and um when you know, when I show up to do uh the rehearsal, I'm there to do, I'm there to do the rehearsal. I'm there as I'm not I'm not cousin, I'm not uncle. I'm there as Father Brian, who is, yes, I'm a family member, and this is probably my cousin or whomever it might be, God willing, my niece or nephew one day when they go with my um but it's but I'm there because I'm the I'm I'm the priest and I'm doing the wedding. Yeah, and we need to do the rehearsal in 35 minutes, or you'll see me get upset.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

You know, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

You know, but um but you know, but they still might look at you and say, hey, you know, they may they may talk to you like it's back home at at the barbecue, but it's not the barbecue at this point in time. That's what I mean by boundaries and expect expectations, is like when we're in this moment, this is what this is this is this is the expectations of what's going on. So this is this is what we need to do. Now, the problem is is like let's say you you like within um the the parish life or the church life, you there's some people you get closer to and some people you don't, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But everybody needs to know what those boundaries and expectations are when you're at when when you're ministering to people. Because, you know, um a call like a close friend of mine may not you call you may not call me father Brian when we're off, you know, maybe we're at I'm I'm reading dinner together or whatever it might be. It might just be it is like a first name relationship type thing. But if they come into the dark gathering area and they don't call me Father Brian while we have a big thing going on, I'm probably not gonna answer you.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Because I mean I will, but it's just but it is it's a different relationship at that point in time. And I think people have to understand what those are and and the boundaries of those things. I'm not trying to be mean, but if I allow you to to call me my first name only, not Father Brian, then how do I tell someone else over here they have to call me father Brian? Yeah, it's it's a different dialectic in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

That's good. And I was thinking you said expectations. So those are two really good words boundaries and expectations. And so one of the things that I'm learning, like as a father, so both my sons are now adults, and my wife has said this, and I think she's right. She's like, no matter what you say, they still hear you say it as dad. Does that make sense? So I joke around with my kids, uh, like we they go to sports together, like you know, like we're like buddies, but I'm not really their buddy. Does that make sense? And so that's one of those things that's like even if I'm not thinking I'm talking as dad, they're thinking I'm talking as dad. And I have experienced that some as a pastor too. Like you come over to somebody's house to eat or whatever, and you're just like, dude, I'm here to watch the bangles. Like, I'm not, I'm thinking Chris, not Pastor Chris. But no matter how I respond or resp or, you know, like uh whatever, they it still feels like he's still Pastor Chris no matter what. Right. I mean, do you do you feel that too?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's very hard to um to if someone invites you over to watch the game or have dinner, it's very hard not to be the the pastor when you do that. You know, you there's a certain level of trust and a certain level of familiarity that has to happen over time to uh allow me to come in there and actually relax a little bit. And I'm not trying to say anything about anybody, I'm just saying that from a pastor's perspective, it's easy for us to walk into a situation thinking it's going to be one thing, and all of a sudden it's something totally different. That's right. And now all of a sudden we're not prepared for it, and our minds not in mind not ready for it, and then all of a sudden we're we're again, I don't I don't mind I'm not trying to say anybody's done wrong or purposely misleading, but but we need to learn, understand what what those expectations are.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, yeah. How do you shift that fast? Oh, because we we've talked about this, like this idea that you find yourself in a meeting and you think you're going to lunch, right? Yep, going to lunch. We both have had this, and all of a sudden you realize this is more than lunch. There's an agenda here. So what what's been some things that you've done that maybe helps when you're shocked?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Is that the right word? Yeah. You know, I think it's one of those things. It's it's um, it's you you have to you have to not allow yourself to be visibly shocked.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

And I think when when you're sitting and talking, and and as you have your conversations going on, you start to have like you start to understand and discern, oh, this is really more of a business thing, or someone's trying to bend my ear for something. And and you know, and and then you just kind of you kind of just flip the flip switch into okay, I need to be in that that more of that of that leader professional mode now, and then but still be relational, you know? Um, but because you you could easily fall into a situation where where all of a sudden you're at a meeting, you're you're talking about lunch, and you're just maybe just having a nice conversation. Then all of a sudden someone goes, This is this is not an experience thing here, this is hypothetical, where someone goes, Well, I had a lunch with Father Brian the other day, and this is what he said. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We were having lunch, you know? But now all of a sudden someone's taking that as maybe you're you're allowing them to do something, or maybe a ministry they want to do, or or or or something want to do at church. And now all of a sudden you're I'm going, wait a minute. I uh what did I say? I didn't agree to that. Yeah, you know, but people have to, but we we have to learn how to navigate those things. And so what what I know what I normally say is, now we'll have this conversation. I'm happy to have this conversation with you. Um at the same time, please remember that anything we talk about right now, nothing's gonna happen until please email me afterwards, and then so we can then I can then run this through my leadership team because they're because all decisions run through my leadership team. And you know, and and I don't make decisions like on my own like this. Yeah, I you know, so they have to know that too. So they they have to know as soon as that shift happens, now this becomes this is the process. The process, I'm happy to talk with you about it. But number one, email me because I promise you, I'll probably forget we talked about this. And number two, you know, our my leadership team is the one that actually helps me make these decisions about what to do with these things. So we have to we have to be able to have those conversations in such a way to allow people to understand these are the boundaries and these are the expectations from both sides.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

That's really good. Yeah, one thing a mentor had told me before was uh to even have these, he called it like a like stoplights, and he's like it where it's a or maybe he called it stoplights and sirens, where it's like, here's a clear shift in the conversation, and he advised me to say things like, All right, Brian, I'm gonna put my elder hat on right now. Yeah, I'm gonna put my password, or like with staff, I'm gonna put my boss hat on for a minute. Like so everything I'm about to say is well, and he said it may feel socially awkward, but it's real clear now, like, because you you said earlier, and I thought this was really good. Sometimes even in our even if you're not in ministry, you have like we work together, but then we're also on a softball team, like we're buddies outside, but that's outside of work hours. Yeah, so it's like, yeah, I'm your shortstop in the evening, but like I'm your boss nine to five, you know, kind of thing. And so that just seems uh it's it can be challenging. So I was gonna ask you too, like, what um what what helps like how do you differentiate between somebody um seeing you as a genuine friend? Like, my guess is this, because I've gotten to know you, you are very friendly. And I'm just gonna be honest, I bet you there are a lot of people in your church that say Father Brian is my friend, but it's not true. Not that they're trying to lie. No, no, no, no. But you would say, No, they may see me as a friend, but I don't see him as a friend. Like, how do you di does that make sense what I'm asking?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Oh, it is, it is, it is. You know, I think I think number one is this is is that um I think you have to be able uh until you and that person have a conversation about it, you have to allow those things to happen as they happen. Okay, because I think you have to the last thing you want to do is create an issue where there's not an issue. Where, like what I mean by that is is that if I'm if I'm ministering to somebody, and let's say there's someone that that there's a normal conversation, those type of things, where I'm missing as I'm the pastor, I'm I'm talking to a parishion, and you know, and I'm happy to talk to whomever. Um, I think that that's until there's a conversation of me saying, you know, um remember, I'm your pastor first. And being your pastor first means that that I'm gonna have be a very sentiment be a very listening and discerning ear for you. I'm happy to talk to you as much as you want, all those type of things. I'm happy to help you with different things. Um, but at the same time, only time I see you is when we're in this in these moments at the church. So um what I don't want to do is then uh create an issue where there's not an issue. I mean, like I don't want to, I don't want to upset the relationship because someone is is somewhat maybe maybe misunderstanding uh, you know, not that I've done anything wrong or or misleading, but it's because of of of how of of of the of their state that they might be in at that point in time. I mean, like maybe it's of of loss or or you know, just something going on in life. So I think that, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are many people out there that look at that say, oh yeah, Father's my friend, you know, and um but until you we have that conversation, I'm not gonna, you know, come I'm not I'm not gonna make it a a a major issue. Sure. You know, because because again, it's it's because you you don't want to you you don't want to upset the interaction of of pastor and and parishioner. And and let's face it, we're we're based on relationship. That's right. And we have to create that relationship, keep that relationship. So so yeah, and so I I have no problem with someone thinking me that I'm I'm their friend because that means they're comfortable with me. And that that means they're they're wanting to talk to me. And I, you know, and um which also on my end also means I need to respect that boundary too.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And and then keep and keep that sense of of interaction as a good interaction. You know, so I think um now if if I feel like that there's um you know, there's something that that may not be as let's say that I think there's there's what I call a boundary issue, not a negative one, not an inappropriate one, but like all of a sudden saying that you know, uh, you know, I I I the easiest one is this one. When somebody asks you to say, Yeah, I've done their wedding, they're like, Father, we want we want you to come to dinner with us.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And I'm like, yeah, it's great, wonderful. You know, I really got I have a lot of work to do. And all of a sudden they keep pushing and keep pushing, keep pushing, and because they want you to get dinner. And I'm and I'm thinking, I mean, no disrespect here, guys, but this is like my 10th thing today. Yeah. And I I need to go home and rest, you know? Yeah. And so I think I think it's it's being able to, how do you have that moment? Say, guys, I appreciate it so much. I just need to go home and rest. You know, I appreciate you want me there. I'll be there tomorrow for the reception. I'll stop in for that. But tonight, I really just need to do go and just relax, place. And I think that that it's it's it's it's very nebulous at times because church is a lot of gray area. That's a great example. And I think we have to and we have to respect that though. And we have to allow people to understand that yes, I'm there for you. And and you know, and sometimes I have but I have to say, guys, I'm sorry it's not, I can't do it tonight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

So I think, you know, does that make sense at all? It does. It does. And I was thinking like kind of the with a dual relationship, I think about is it one-sided? Yeah, and so I think because you and I end up in a lot of conversations where we're listening to people share some very personal things, uh, some just challenges. And so I think they hopefully feel loved and cared for by God through our words and through our actions and through our listening. Yeah. But where I notice, in all honesty, is I have people that never ask how I am. So they would tell you, and they're not lying, they would say, Man, Chris is my friend. Yeah, but I would say, but you never ask how I'm doing. You know, like and so, but again, to your point, there's no reason for me to be like, you realize we're not officially friends because it's one-sided. You're right. But I think that one-sided, I don't know how that balances with the duel.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

No, it is it's tough. You're right, it's tough because I think I think a frustrating for us, for at least for me, I think it's on me for you too, is that you give so much to everybody else and you and you can feel like that no one's really wanting to worry about how you're doing, you know. And that goes back to our last episode. Oh, yeah. Talking about when you overwork yourself, those are the negative things that creep in. And so I so I think that that, yeah, this is definitely a uh a tough topic to talk about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

And I have to confess, it throws me off. Yeah. When I go to dinner or something to somebody and they say, How are you? Yeah, it it's like I didn't understand the words because I'm not used to hearing that. And so like I stutter and I'm like, you know, because I also sometimes wonder, do you really want to know? Uh-huh. Like, what if it is a hard day? Uh-huh. Because in some ways it can add instability. Like, I can't say, man, today I was really frustrated at work because they know where I work and they love some of the same people I work with. Oh, yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, big time. But yet I work with people where we have conflict. Of course. We're humans and we have to forgive and repent and everything. But you know, it's kind of like, do they really want to know I'm mad at somebody work? Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Yeah, yeah, you're right in that regard. I think so. I think, you know, when someone I always have the same answer, and it's it's a it's a true answer. When when someone looks at me and goes, Hey, how are you doing today? I say, Oh, not I'm I always say someone lines off, on uh uh not too bad. Not too bad. Yeah, I always say something like I'm not too bad today. And and then people are like, Father, when are you gonna be great? I was like, that's a great question. God bless you. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So let's talk about like how do we find people we can trust. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

I tell you, um, it's it's uh it's a it's a tough balance because I think um it's one of those things where it's it it comes over time. And the the same way that that we learn how to trust different people, we trust them with things as pastors, we would trust them with things we wouldn't normally trust other people with.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I think that because like as you're just saying, I'm not gonna trust everybody with how I'm actually doing today because you might not like what I want I have to say, but I can go to some other people and then and and have say this uh it's like this is really frustrating me. This I'm having I'm doing have a tough time with this. I'm really questioning some things right now. And I can I can go to someone and then they know exactly what I'm talking about. And so it's one thing to have. Like I I have I have a group of priests like I see every month where we go and we we talk about those things, but in the parish, there's probably two or three people where I will then, you know, uh, I was this there, you know, we're uh there's some people you work with who you're very close with because you work together all the time, where you're people will know where you're at with different things, you know, you're able to be more open about how you're doing things, stuff like that. But then outside of that, uh there is um you have some parishers or people go to church with you where you where you can say, Hey, I can I just come over tonight. I need to talk. And those are probably anywhere between two to five people. That's cool. You know, and um because you learn how how much you can share with different people. And and I would say 98% of the people that come to church really don't know exactly what we deal with. And they and if they learn what we actually deal with, I wonder how they would react. Um, I remember talking to my first year of priesthood and the number of funerals, the number of anointings, the number of times I was at I was at the deathbeds of people, my parents never would have thought that's the majority of my ministry. You know, helping people through grief and loss, and and then which means that you're in the midst of grief and loss three to four times a week. And you know, and so and and you then had to learn, you'd have to learn how to deal with that in a positive way and not in a negative way, in a healthy way, and not an unhealthy way. But like, you know, if if you know, if if if if you want to someone say, Yeah, I was called the ER at one o'clock in the morning, and this is what I saw, they they I wonder how people react. Yeah, exactly. You know, but that's that's our normal life.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, yeah. And one thing I appreciate about you is like that ability to shift to a completely different gear. Because we talk a lot of times about like leadership moments where it's like, because you also lead a staff of people to execute activities. I mean, I I'm not trying to de-spiritualize what we do, but when we have an event, we're coordinating the execution of that event, whether it's food, whether it's a a specific worship service, whatever it is, yeah. But then a moment later, you're there with somebody like you just described that might be saying goodbye to their spouse of 50 plus years, and then you go and celebrate a baby. These baptism. Like you know what I'm saying? Like y'all, it's like, and then that was Monday. You know what I'm saying? So it's kind of crazy. It is. Yeah. And I think uh, so I think I know the answer to this, but like for me, I'll I'll say like that trust is like uh the principle of reciprocity, and it just takes time. You go, like I reveal some, they reveal some, I reveal some. And I notice in my particular world that I live in, um we don't have as many titles. So like in the Catholic Church, father is a is a honored title, you know. And so what I'll discover is people will call me Pastor Chris, but it's actually a positive when they drop the pastor in a very uh like and not to be in disrespectful. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But it's like, oh, okay. Like I got to introduce uh Father Brian to a friend of mine a minute ago, and like he would call me Chris. Like he would be like, Oh, that's Chris, uh, because we are friends, and so he does attend your he's very encouraging, uh, but we're more like brothers' friends, maybe. And it's probably like one of my three to five like you're talking about. Yeah, it's just over time, and it's how they interact with you. I don't know how to describe it, but you know, yeah, it's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I'd say it's you know, yeah. Sorry, cut you off there. Sorry about that. No, you're good, you're good. So it is one of those things where yeah, I it it's you just over time learn it. Yeah, and you learn how the people the people you trust, and unfortunately sometimes you learn it by by experience. Yeah, you know, and um you just do your best. And you know, I I made my mistakes too in that regard, and or in and you know, and and how I've made those mistakes with with with the how to understand relationships too. I mean, so we we've all you know, we all we've all made those mistakes in terms of of like you know being the pastor and you know, and and how and how to have the the the proper level of of um of of care for the person. Not I'm not trying to make anything inappropriate or wrong, but I'm saying is that is that sometimes, you know, we too can can can allow ourselves to um be close to some families too. And like, and so we have to be careful with how that closeness is in this terms of like, you know, because they they can feel the same way, going, Oh my father, thanks for being here. And I'm I'm thinking, like, hey, they call me as a friend, then all of a sudden you're just your your your father, you know, or your pastor, you know. That's right. Then you've misunderstood the situation. So it's just it it it can be very nebulous, it can be very tough, and it's and it can be a hard thing, and it can be very easily turned into something that makes you more jaded and makes you more um unwilling to open up because of how do you understand those things. Yeah. And but at the same time, that's why you need to have those two to five people that you trust. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah. And it's it's unique in our role in the sense of uh we've both been in ministry a long time. And I go back to the conversations we have with people are so rich. Like it's not that we don't talk about I'm gonna say shallow things, like we talk about sports and all kinds of just normal life things, but so many people are sharing with us things they don't share with people they work with. Sometimes they don't share with people they live with. I mean, and so it's an honor. It's an honor because it's like they it's we get to have conversations about people's spiritual life. And your spiritual life, like what you believe about God is probably the most important part of you, right? And like your spiritual life is so personal. Um I think it creates maybe uh even a heavier dual relationship, if that makes sense, because they're looking at us as a guide at the same time as a trusted friend, you know, and it's uh you keep using the word nebulous, it's it is right, and maybe it just stays great. Maybe it's hard to always have a clear, clear point. Yeah, so what are some things that friends do that make it more difficult or more easy? You can go either way or both ways.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Well, I think I think what makes it more easy is that friends can give more grace.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Okay, yeah, elaborate for them.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Which what I mean by that is sometimes friends are able to um, you know, understand your your positive and negative as as we all have a positive and negative person. And people sometimes friends are able to be more one more open to the understanding that you're a human being, and more open to the understanding that you need to hear your human you're a human being. Yeah, you know, and I think they're they're the ones that can be more honest and open with you and true with you. Um on the negative side is where if if I'm friend with father, that means he'll do this for me. Yeah, you know, and I think that, you know, I'm speaking out of speaking out of out of hypotheticals here. Um, but that those those are the things that that um that friends can make things difficult at times. But you're right, that's why boundaries and expectations are necessary for knowing what the situation is and and how we navigate that. Yeah, you know, and so and you know, and and overall, again, um we we at times can can focus on the negative things a lot, you know, and like you know, what if this has what if that happens, you know. Um, but a lot of times we have to remember this. I remember uh a good friend who's a pastor for a long time, he says, My goal by the time I finish my time at a parish is to learn how to love every single person that's there. And it doesn't mean you're friends with everybody, but it means that you're being a pastor to them. And it means that that you're you're having those good positive relationships, which also means you can you can also speak to things differently with them. But being able to love the people that God sends to you is the goal.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

And and how we do that depends on if you're a friend, if you're someone you're whatever the those relationships are, depend on how you're able to then to interact.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah, as well. That's right, that's right. So yeah. And I find it a blessing just to I know we're talking about inside the parish or inside the congregation, but like I have some really good friends from high school and college and stuff, and they I they didn't know me as Pastor Chris. Yeah, and so it's good every now and just to hang out with them. And like if you were sitting with us, you're like, oh, look, as far as they they're concerned, they're like, oh yeah, he works at church, but not my church. Like, you know, like and I'm just Chris, the goofy guy, you know, you know, we got in trouble together or something, you know. Oh, sure, yeah. And so I think it's healthy too, and I'm assuming because you grew up in Cincinnati that you have some people that kind of just know Brian, you know, especially family, but they're just like, you know, like I see Father Brian, or many people see your role. Yeah, but it's like those people have got to be like some encouraging people that might pick on you, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

It's kind of funny because I think that the that you need that too. You need people to kind of remind you of where you're from, yeah, you know, where you came from and who you used to be. It's that's right, you know, but it but it it it just helps us in humility and helps us be better ministers because you know, if if if everybody looks at us as being the person who's on the pedestal or the person who's the person we it's hard to talk to, then you lose the understanding of what it means people are going through. And you know, and we have to just remember that that we're all human beings, we're all made image and like us of God, and we have to remind ourselves that we're all loved by Him. And then we start there, you know, and I think the the messy part is when we start talking about you know how to navigate relationships, what how do you classify relationships, and and then and then how and how as a pastor, how do you you realize people are taking that relationships? And I think that's the hard part, that's the difficult part. And this this episode here is not to say be afraid of being a friend with Pastor Chris or Father Brian. It's just a reminder that us as pastors also navigate these things too, and we're human beings and we make mistakes, and we and we love when people talk to us, we love when people share those things with us, and we love when people want us to have dinner have dinner together. We love those things, but we but we also have those times where we need to have those moments of just us and people who we trust because maybe we've had a bad week, or maybe it is a moment where we think, uh, what am I really doing here? Or we have a moment of like, am I really doing anything good? We all have those moments, yeah, and we need those people around us to help us work through those things too. So, so God, thank you all for listening. God bless you guys. Remember this that as we uh work through season two here, we're about halfway done, and we're gonna we're gonna have some more uh more topics for you, and hopefully have hopefully have some some um uh some guests on here with us too. And so just remember, God bless you all. Thanks for listening, thanks for all your encouragement, and remember, God loves you very much, and have a great day.