How to Lead People Through Transition

Change happens all the time—but transition is what stretches us. In this episode, Fr. Brian and Pastor Chris explore how leaders can guide people through uncertainty, grief, vision, and growth as they embrace the new things God is doing.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to Two Pastors One Cumbling. It's so good to have you join us again. We're so excited just for things that we've heard as we've talked to some of you that have been listening. Again, thank you so much for your support. We hope that we are continuing to provide you some insight and encouragement along the way. Today, today we're gonna talk about something that we all go through, but we're gonna talk about it from our perspective as leading through this and even personally going through this. And it's this one word, it's called transition. It's a little different. Now, I want to start off by clarifying some definitions here, and uh, Brother Brian and I have been talking, and he has said, Hey, Chris, have you ever heard the difference between like change and transition? I said, not really. So I told him, I said, All right, man, when we push record on this, I'm gonna ask you to define for us when you think about those two terms, so the term change and the term transition, just real quick, kind of tell us the difference between those two.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So the people when people say I hate change, what they're actually saying is I hate transition. Okay, explain that to us. Because what that means is this is that people change all the time. Think of how many different streaming services you've changed to these past this past year. Because maybe maybe because this show is on this one, so now I've changed to this one over here, or this one now prices a little bit better. And but all you're doing is changing up your streaming service to a different price, or because a show is on this one over here versus over that. So we we actually we change all the time. When people say I don't like change, it's because what they what they're really saying is I said before, they don't like transition. Because transition is the movement from one spot to a new spot. Change, you're actually able to stay in the same spot and change the different things you want to change. Transition makes you move from your current spot to a new spot, and so and and that's either because of moving from one house to another, buying a new car, um, you know, moving from city to city. It transition happens in all these different ways, and actually, and in churches and parishes, the same thing happens because churches and parishes change all the time because maybe a new leader comes in. Maybe the the the you know the the people that have always been kind of head of ministries, now they've they've they've kind of run their time and and they're they're they're they're time for them to step back a little bit. So the the parish changes or church changes because the people are you know have decided that no, maybe new people should be in charge now. But it's the same ministries, and you haven't really transitioned to a new thing yet, but change happens all the time. Transition doesn't happen all the time, transition only happens when we make it happen, be honest about it. And a lot of times transition is something that we don't really want to do. Because I the best way I heard it was this would say that let's say you you you you you you own a house and you still owe, like let's say two-thirds of of the mortgage. You know, someone comes to you and says, I'm gonna sell you a house that's twice the size of the house you have right now. But it's going to be half the cost of what your mortgage is now. So you could sell your house and have in and you know have your mortgage pay, you know, pay it off, but have the money there too, right? And half of that, well, I'll I'll let you let you keep half of the money, and then you can keep the and then you pay me the other half, and you can move from this house to the new house. I think they said like 80% of the people won't move because they don't want to go through the process of packing everything up, yeah. You know, but you know, move moving moving this. All all the memories and all the dreams and all the great things that happen in this house, people don't want to leave. And so what ends up happening is people say, No, I I'm good, I it's a great deal, but I want to stay right here because I'm comfortable. This is this is what I know. And transition takes us from something we don't know, from what we do know to a place we don't know yet. Yeah. Change means we we we can stay kind of where we're at. Things may may change a little bit over time, but ultimately you're still the same place.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Transition goes from now, we need to go from point A to point Z, and now B through Y has to happen in order to get that new spot.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Yeah, so that's good. I appreciate you saying that because what comes to my mind is a kind of a way to say it is okay, so as a leader, you're gonna have to always manage change because change is constant, it's always happening. But you can make a choice to actually lead transition where we're going to a new place, we're doing something different, it's gonna require faith, it's gonna require a whole set of challenges. And so today's episode is actually not so much about managing change. So if you're listening, you're like, I just never want anything to change. I think Father Brian's done a great job saying, Well, you you change every day. Like you're not gonna, again, wear the same clothes you did, you're probably not gonna eat the same meals you ate last week, right? Like change is inevitable, and that that's fine. And as leaders, we could just say we're just gonna manage change and try to lead the status quo. But God has called us as pastors to help people grow. And growth is challenging, growth is sometimes painful. Growth includes leading transitions. So let's spend some time talking about leading transition. So, as you think about leading transitions, what are some steps, some things that people or yourself even has looked at and said, Okay, I'm I realize my church is going to be needing to move forward to a new direction, to a new vision, to a new chapter in the life of our church. How do you kind of process the first few steps in that?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

It's a great question. Those are some of the hardest steps, to be honest about it. Because the hard the hardest steps is getting people to understand that a transition needs to happen. Because people don't people can see only as far as they can see. You know, and I love this quote from Henry Ford when he started making the car. He said, If I if I only listened to my customers, the only thing they wanted was a faster horse. Where like he had to help them understand that there's this thing, there's an automobile that's gonna actually help your life improve and then and and bring more luxury and all these things to the world that that right now we don't have, but the people don't see it yet. And he has to help people understand, he had helped people understand that this is actually the future, and this is actually gonna be bring a lot more um goodness than what we have already. And so part of the first step is number one saying, okay, there needs to be something new. And there's need to be something is not because I wanted something new, it's because what we've done right now is no longer, no longer bringing fruit the way it did. And when there's no longer bringing fruit the way it did, now we need we need to discern where is the where is the way forward and what's that new thing, the new place we need to be at. And that's one of the hardest steps because it it involves a dreaming and involves uh involves a future in a world that we don't see yet. But we can see through faith and we can see through imagination. And I think one of one of my not favorite things to do, but one of the things to do, it's a great fun conversation to have is called what's called the appreciative inquiry, where we say, okay, there's no boundaries right now about what of what the future could hold you. So I want you to do is just say, of all the things you we see are good right now, if we improve those things that are good to help us get to help us improve our parish or church, where where do you see this could be in five or ten years? And then let and let people understand like you you you base it in things that are already happening, but say, but if this really improved a certain way, well, look case, let's let's be like, well, you know, we have you know 25, you know, we have 25 baptisms right now, we have 10 weddings, but we're but we're seeing a few more young families around here. So really what could happen is is in five years, we can actually have 75 baptisms a year, and we can really have, you know, uh, you know, from 10 weddings we can go up to 20 weddings, or or maybe we can, you know, there's or there's some things with with youth ministry because in five years, some of those kids are gonna be out an age. You know, so what we're trying to help people see is like there's a greater future here, but but you don't see it yet. So transitions. Step one is always about dreaming. Step two then is when you go from dreaming. From dreaming, you then go into uh uh understanding possibilities, and then and then that's where you take the dreams and then move them into more concrete things. And then from you move from the concrete things into now, that's make a plan of how to get there. So that's why it's the hardest part because it's all it's still all in like the the the mind part still, and it's not yet in the action part yet, because you don't get to the action part until you actually get people understanding where we need to go. Because all these things yet have not been communicated at large yet. What it comes down to is that you have to start with start small with groups, get their get their feedback, get their input, get their dreaming, get how how could this work? Let's take some steps, how to plan, how to get there. And then then it's like, okay, now let's go to the next group. And let's start getting some more people in and start talking more about this is what can happen. And then, you know, and then and then all of a sudden it's you start uh you start having some movement of people of buying in, seeing the vision, seeing the future, and then saying, oh, you know, and then then that's when you start getting in more of the people that are like, oh now, this is where I want our our church or parish to be. So transition is that's why it's really tough because it's like moving a big wheel with like five people starting off. Yeah. And then as time goes on, more people get behind it, and then more people, and then the wheel starts moving faster and faster because you're getting more and more people as a part of it. So transition really only happens first in the dreaming phase because it's about it's about discernment, prayer, dreaming. I've tried to say that sorry, but yeah, so discernment, prayer, dreaming is the first part. So when I meant dreaming, I meant discernment, prayer, dreaming. Sorry about that. Yeah, and and then it turns into dreaming, then turns into you know, let's start figuring out how this how this might be able to work. And then it turns into let's make the plan of actually how to get to that spot. Yeah, which which step when the next step would be next to the next group, get their buy-in, get their feedback, and then it keeps evolving and moving until we're actually at a point to say, now we're ready to move forward. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

That's great. And I think realizing, like you said, kind of like where are we today and being open and honest, and that's kind of a challenge because um in the church world, I feel like a lot of people might value predictability. And the reason I say that is because their world outside the church is unpredictable. So I don't know if I'm gonna have the same job this time next year. I don't know what's gonna happen with my kids, I don't know what's gonna like things seem so unstable that I want to be able to gather with a group of people on a consistent basis and there be stability or predictability. And as a pastor, uh the shepherd is is bringing them into the you know the field that's hey, let's graze in this field, and then all of a sudden you're saying, let's go somewhere else to a new field, to a new place, to something new God has for us. And you almost have to recognize this field is no longer, as you said, as fruitful as it had been in the past while still honoring that past, right? But then talk about the potential, right? And like you said that before, it's like this predictability, but there's this potential. But the potential, people recognize there's pain before the potential, right? But we do that normally. I think about in a family, and women do this every generation, they decide to have children. Well, they decide to say to have children not because of the pain, but what comes after the pain. There's this potential of new life, of a new generation, of a new person being formed, and so they're willing to go through the pain of childbirth because of the potential of life. And so, as a pastor, as a leader, you have to be able to uh pardon the term, but almost sell the potential, paint that picture that you're talking about that you dreamed about, like look what God has called us to do. And I think about Joshua chapter one, off time in that, is like the time has come for you to lead this people across the Jordan River into the promised land. And uh again, we know how a lot of the story went. They looked and the promised land was scary, all this kind of stuff, and we don't want to go over there. And there was clarity in that, and like you said, he if for Joshua, he got his troops together and said, Go tell the people, like get stuff ready, we're gonna go, but we still have to have those leaders. Yeah, the priest in this case, they have to be the first one to put their foot in, they have to be the first one to step forward, and so uh, yeah, so these these steps is painting that vision.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah, um you you brought something that's really important too, is that there's a certain level of emotion that's tied to things, and I think so when we talk about transition, transition in itself is healthy, okay? Because again, we're going to new things, but it's also emotional. So, how how do you help people see and then how do you how do you help people understand that it's okay to be emotional and it's okay to be upset? And then and but how do you help them see that that that emotion and that will help them move to the new spot?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yeah, I think at some point you have to celebrate, uh, and a lot of times it feels like in the church world, methodology is sometimes the hardest transition because people are like, okay, uh, because God is unchanging. Yeah, like the gospel is unchanging. And so our message is actually the same message it was 2,000 years ago. We have hope, he is risen, and we have hope in that, right? And so we are now using different methodologies. But what has helped me as a pastor remember that methodology, if we're not careful, can become sacred when it shouldn't be. Correct. So, for example, songs are a very good example. There are songs that are elude in me a lot of emotion because that song was a significant part of my story, but it may be a song that you've never heard before. So for me, it is a level 10 emotion. For you, it's a level zero. And if you're not careful as a pastor, you'll say, Oh, we're no longer singing that song. All right. What do you mean? You're no longer singing a song that is so precious to me. So there has to be this honor and celebration of the past methodology. Correct. And I'm not diminishing any songs. No, you're right, yeah. But this methodology or even a physical location. Correct. It's like this place, yes, this is where I sat while I looked at my mom's casket, right? So all of a sudden, this room is not just brick and mortar. It might be for you, but this is where the last time, this is where I married my bride. This is where I knelt down at that altar. Like there's so many moments. And I think it's wise to pause and say, look at what God's done. And throughout the nation, Israel's history, remember, they would set up these memorials and these stones and say, God did it here. Let's remind, let's celebrate. Yeah. But then let's go and pick up new stones during the Jordan River to set up a new memorial on the other side. And so it's kind of one of those things where I feel like um you recognizing that, but then as you said so articulately, it's also the new things that God wants to do. So I was just gonna ask you, so how about you? Like, how do you allow people that space to realize that was special for them? That that it was emotional.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Well, I think it it's the thing too, it's like there's we have to remember that that emotion helps people grow. And I think what I mean by that is is that the the first thing that people are are going to react upon is their emotion. You know, and so and and that's natural, and that's okay. And we have to let them do that, and we have to allow them to be emotional because if you take that from them, then they're not gonna move forward. And I think the thing is you have we have to we have to remember that that our brains are set up in such a way that um in order for us to move, understand something logically, even though the logical part of our brain is on the most part outside part of our brain, until it moves to our most inside was our was our emotional, and then back out again, we're there people are not gonna understand it. So we have to allow people to be emotional to let them go through the process of one, maybe grieving something like that, grieving something like, well, this is where my my family was was was buried from. This is where I married my wife, this is where my kids were baptized, this is where I got married, you know, and so we have to allow people to to have a have that memorial, have that sense of of of like a strong remembrance and honoring the past, because we also need to also help people see that, but we also need to move forward too. Not well, need's not the right word, but but we we have to allow people to say that that the the the fruitfulness of the where God is calling us to be is now more over in this new in this new place now. And so I think it's you know, we uh what I've learned is uh if you if you're gonna have to to make a new transitional change, you have to announce it uh uh a good four to six weeks before you actually have to go to an effect, if not more than that. Because you have to allow people that moment to grieve, be emotional about it, yeah, and then come to their understanding of what's going on. Because if if you announce it and then a week and a half later you're changing it into something new, transitioning it, then all of a sudden what's gonna happen is you is you're gonna have 150 people who are upset with you show up on the first day. But but if you but if you start with guys, in six months from now, there needs to be a a new transition of maybe a schedule for masses or services, whatever it might be. That's a transition too. And so we we need to give people the space to figure out okay, okay, okay, this is just this is changing in a sense. Then we need to people have the sense of okay, what you how would things you used to be is now is is moving to something new. And we allow people the the moment to say, okay, how am I gonna do this differently now? So all those things need to happen in order for them to move forward into that new thing. And so we have to give people a runway of at least a month and a half, at least before we make that transition to give people that space to do it. Doesn't mean everybody will like it, doesn't mean everybody will 100% get it, but at least you're giving them the possibility of of working through that process to get to that new spot. That's good. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Tell us real quick about the rule of thirds. Like what does that mean? And then how do you deal with it? Those that who will honestly never agree with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

So before the transition. Yeah, the rule of thirds. This says there's a third of the people that will always agree with you no matter what. There'll be a third of the people who will never agree with you, and there's a third of the people who are in the middle trying to figure out which way to go. Agree or not agree. In actual audience, the third that doesn't agree with you is not 33%. It's more like 8%. Okay. It sounds like 33% because they're they're the ones in the they're they're because they they because they're good, they're good, faithful people, because they love their their church, because this is where their parents grew up. You know, this is where their family's been for how many years? They they don't want things to to transition or to new things because of of how much goodness they've experienced where they're at. You know, and so sometimes they people will never disagree with you. And and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with people not agreeing with us. I mean, it's fine, you know. I think that that um so what the rule of thirds is that we have to remember there's always going to be a spectrum of people that will always agree with you, a spectrum of people that will never agree with you, and the biggest spectrum of people will be the ones who are in the middle, trying to figure out which way to go. And how you lead and communicate will help all three. Because on one level, uh you've heard the phrase, um, you're never going to make everybody happy. You're just not going to. And it's and you know, if we try to, then we're doing we're not doing our jobs. Um because we're because we're we're we're not leading people the right way at that point in time. Because we're we're leading more about if people like me or not, or if or from basically more of like if people like the things or not, uh but but it's really based more on the prayer and discernment and what we believe the new fruitfulness will will come from. So, secondly, is this is that um we have to give the people who don't agree with us time. We have to we uh you can't just shut them out. Because again, they're good, faithful people. You can't just shut them out, you know. Yeah, we have to listen to them and we we have to give them time. But we don't have to give them the megaphone, you know? And you know, so we so we s we need to help people see that this is you know we I understand where you're coming from. I understand why you don't like this, I understand, you know, where you know, the the reasoning you're that you're that you're you're struggling with this. You know, please help me to talk to you about what we think is good. And so the people in the middle, the the more you act compassionately, the act more you you are compassionately, the more you listen compassionately, and the more that you also tell people I hear why people are struggling at the same time. This is why we believe this is the best thing for us right now. Those people in the middle will start to see the goodness of it all. And then, but if if if we just spend all of our time in the negative, then what would the people in the organ? See, what's it just negative? Why why why should we even do this? You know, it's all about how we communicate and all about how we number and love the people, treat the people, and communicate to the people. Yeah, it's all about that. And the the more that we we show the goodness, live the goodness, have integrity, and do your best to be a good leader. It's amazing how people will say, Okay, you know what? I'm I'm I'm open to hearing what you have to say. Yeah. You know, and so I think we have to be careful of that.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah, and I think one thing that pastors that we probably need to do better at too is at its core, following Jesus is a pioneering movement. Yeah, it is. Like at the very beginning, Jesus told his disciples, he said, wait here in Jerusalem, and then the Holy Spirit's gonna come. And when the Holy Spirit comes, you're gonna receive power and you're gonna be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. And then remember, right before that, he had told them when they were in Galilee, you need to go make disciples of all nations. So, like, we are part of this movement of God to bring the good news, the story of Jesus, to every tongue, every tribe, every nation. And so following Jesus is actually a commitment of repentance to transition, yes, to not being conformed to the world, but be transformed. And so, like, it's kind of funny because transition is constant in some ways, or it should be a choice that we push people. And again, I can understand from a from a shepherd perspective why it seems like, man, let's just circle the wagons and like the world's hard outside. But I've found as you cast vision, you remind people, hey man, you're part of God's mission, you're part of God's pioneering movement to take the gospel to your work, to your home, to your school, to your neighborhood, to your friends, you know, that that all of a sudden people realize, man, it's about this movement that I'm a part of. And transition can become something that is part of your DNA. And so, like at our church, one thing we like to say is like one of our core values is that we take new ground. Like we're gonna fight complacency to the now, whatever it takes to become the people that God has called us to become. And so kind of constantly communicating that and looking is uh is a key proponent in that as far as helping people move forward. So um how about this? How do how do we give people this new purpose for this new chapter, new day, as people still kind of and it may be that that last third, it's probably more the middle third that it's like, man, I I I love what God did in the past, but I'm still kind of struggling as I step into this new chapter. What are some of the things that you've done that help people in that?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

It's understanding what type of loss they're going through. Okay, that's number one. There's like seven types of losses, okay. Turf, you know, is it now forget all from the top of my head, but um, but it's it's like turf, it's purpose, all type of things. And so we have to understand what what type of loss I'm dealing with. And secondly, we have to give people a new sense of purpose with it all too. Because one of the things people struggle with is like, well, this is I've done this for X number of years, you know. What about what what purpose am I gonna have now? And I think that we have to help people see, okay, here's something new we can try. You know, and and or I get we can let's let's just try this to help you out a little bit, you know, and this is this new thing that that we're that we're working on. So why don't we do this? Let's try this part over here, you know, and because because can people don't see the the newness yet? They don't see the goodness yet. Yep and we have to help people like the vision, see the goodness now, and then and give them that new sense of purpose. It's amazing because like well, I was listening to one person say, like, you know, when the he used to um you know help people when they get laid off to transition to a new job, and you would ask them things like, Okay, so what are you actually losing here? And and he was always amazed at what people said because he would always say, like, what do you think? I'm I'm losing my job here, you know? But it was like, I'm losing my my kids' possibility of a college future. You know, I'm I'm I'm losing the purpose of life. I've worked at this place for 35 years, you know. So they're talking about all these hopes and dreams. They're not just losing a job, it's a hope and a dream. So we have the people see see this new hope and dream that doesn't diminish anything for what came previously, but we honor it, we love it, and we say that you know, let's let's now together walk into this new dream, as you were saying, that the transition of of newness, of repentance, and then that metanoia, that change of heart into that newness where God is calling us today. So we've too so it's in about it's about prayer, it's about vision, it's about dreaming. And then, you know, and then allow people to see where they where they will where they fit within it all because before now they know exactly where they fit right now. That's true. They don't know how they fit in the future. Yeah. And so I think we're helping people see that new purpose, that new way, that new transition that can help bring not just goodness for the the community, but also goodness for them personally. And that and that that newness can help them too.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Yeah. I've learned too, as you have these uh seasons of transition, there becomes this elusive word or term people use oftentimes outside the church, but we definitely say it inside the church too is momentum. And so, like you can sense when God is moving in such a way that there is a lot of changed lives, it allows us to have this momentum. And as a leader, it's important to be able to recognize that and seize it when you get it. Because if you lose it, it's hard. You know, it's like we're going somewhere and there's a unity among the church, and so you have to seize those momentum times. I remember one time as a young pastor, one of our momentum moments was we we were a lot smaller church and we had a key um influencer uh that was part of the not want to ever change.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Stepped away from our church uh because that particular family saw that change was coming. And um I unwisely did not seize that opportunity. It said I chose for like stability enough if that makes sense because I felt like the church had been through a lot. Yeah, and we missed an opportunity. And I look back and I think, you know, there are those moments where you've got to realize, okay, this is even though it's not easy, there's times we've got to capture this this moment because we have momentum into this transition. And so um, how do you identify those moments?

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Are does that make sense what I'm saying? It's it's tough to identify those beforehand. Honestly, it really is. It really is, because like we we don't really understand unless you have uh you've grown in a wisdom experience to see it that way, it takes time to see those things. Yeah, you know, and I think we you know it's it's almost kind of like you know, um, are you know, can can you know, can can we grow without going through the the struggle first? It's tough, it's very tough to do that, you know? And so I think that that um you know, unfortunately, uh uh part of seeing that um that new opportunity or an up a lost opportunity, the lost opportunity you can't really see until one is done. We can guess when it might come from, but it only comes from experience and wisdom. Um and that just comes from years of of you know trying to doing our best to pastor, you know. But I also think that that um yeah, I mean it's tough because you know, we the hardest thing is this is we don't want to see anyone leave. And we don't want to see anyone be away from the flock that's known the the people or the people who've known them. You know, and I think that that we have to also understand that um you know what we also have to understand what's the good of for the everybody together is one as well. So it's like it that's a that's a tough decision to make though. And that that's a decision none of us wants to wants to make, yeah, especially when we see friends, people that that we know very, very well, just find looks and say, you know what, this is this is no longer for me. And that hurts. Yeah, it hurts, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

It does. So if we've learned something from this episode, it is the change, change is is constant. It's always gonna happen. You're already changing, you know, so maybe we can all stop saying I don't like change. Yeah, but transition in a lot of ways is a choice. Yeah. Now, sometimes you may say, Well, I didn't have a choice, I lost my job, and I had to transition to an AC. And that's true, but there's still a choice, but we can make that choice well and embrace it and say, what is God gonna do in this new season? Because every day is a new day, every season's a new season, and there's something God's wanting to do in all our lives. So Father Brian, thank you so much for kind of help helping us think through our personal change and even organizational or church-wide transition, and uh just really appreciate your leadership. You guys have had a lot of change in the last few years, and more is coming for both of our churches as we try to lead well and help people grow in that.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Well, God bless you. You know, I think you know, as uh I'm also returning comment too, so you know, as as we're just down the street from each other, you know, it's it's always it's always good to see the goodness that's happening in both of our churches, or all of our churches, really. We both have more than three campus now. And you know, and just remind us too that that you know the good Lord is always there, he's always present with us. You know, and and just remember that he leads us at all times.